Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:23 AM - Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location (Jekyll)
2. 07:33 AM - Hangar For Sale at KCNO (Chino, CA) (Dan Checkoway)
3. 07:42 AM - Re: stiff brakes (Darrell Reiley)
4. 07:47 AM - How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (DAVID REEL)
5. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location (Dwight Frye)
6. 08:14 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Ralph E. Capen)
7. 08:19 AM - Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location (Jekyll)
8. 08:25 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Alex Peterson)
9. 08:31 AM - Re: Hangar For Sale at KCNO (Chino, CA) (Dan Checkoway)
10. 08:39 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Sherman Butler)
11. 09:01 AM - GPS Tracking... (Bill VonDane)
12. 09:10 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
13. 09:10 AM - Sterio Icom (Charles Heathco)
14. 09:14 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Ralph E. Capen)
15. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location (Terry Watson)
16. 09:32 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Konrad L. Werner)
17. 09:32 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Dan Beadle)
18. 09:32 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (vinnfizz@aol.com)
19. 09:39 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Dan Beadle)
20. 09:47 AM - Hanging my IO-320 - lower mount spacer (Gerry Filby)
21. 09:47 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (James Clark)
22. 09:59 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Larry Pardue)
23. 10:00 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Terry Watson)
24. 10:14 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Rob Prior (rv7))
25. 10:15 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Tim Olson)
26. 10:20 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Chris W)
27. 10:53 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (John Jessen)
28. 11:09 AM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Ed Anderson)
29. 11:14 AM - Re: Sterio Icom (Paul Besing)
30. 11:18 AM - Re: GPS Tracking... (David E. Nelson)
31. 12:01 PM - Re: GPS Tracking... (Bill VonDane)
32. 12:20 PM - mixture cable flexing (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
33. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: GPS Tracking... (Larry Pardue)
34. 01:18 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Smitty)
35. 01:33 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Dale Ensing)
36. 01:41 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Rick McCraw)
37. 02:00 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Joseph Larson)
38. 02:39 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (bdjones1965)
39. 03:11 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Jerry Grimmonpre)
40. 03:27 PM - Re: Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Joseph Larson)
41. 04:03 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Tom Gummo)
42. 04:14 PM - Re: stiff brakes (Charles Reiche)
43. 04:26 PM - Re: mixture cable flexing (sarg314)
44. 04:30 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Ron Lee)
45. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: GPS Tracking... (David E. Nelson)
46. 05:04 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Kevin Horton)
47. 05:17 PM - Re: stiff brakes (Darrell Reiley)
48. 05:38 PM - Re: stiff brakes (D.Bristol)
49. 05:46 PM - the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread (JOHN STARN)
50. 07:12 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Mike Kraus)
51. 07:12 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Tom Gummo)
52. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (dick martin)
53. 07:46 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (Paul Besing)
54. 07:54 PM - Burnt out MAC indicator? (Larry Bowen)
55. 08:12 PM - Re: stiff brakes (Darrell Reiley)
56. 09:09 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (John Brick)
57. 09:35 PM - Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight (LessDragProd@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
Dwight:
IO-360 firewall penetration location IS DIFFERENT from the O-360 location. Drawing
OP-32 shows the correct location and the parts list. The drawing comes with
the FWF.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37372#37372
Message 2
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| Subject: | Hangar For Sale at KCNO (Chino, CA) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
My hangarmate (RV-7A builder) Linas is selling one of his hangars at Chino,
CA (KCNO). Here's the deal...
Port-A-Port Executive II hangar large enough for a twin engine aircraft.
Price $15,000. Contact number 949-436-1792.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: stiff brakes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Did you read this Charles?
According to Wheeler North we must be smoking crack. We never even fixed the
brakes on the airplanes we worked on, as bleeding the brakes or even straightening
up a caliper and brake line that was forcing a sideways bind could never
have caused the brakes to have an issue! I guess is was a miracle...
Darrell
"do not archive"
Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North
Most likely is the pedal rocker pivots are too stiff and the small
compensating valve spring in the master cyl can't open, thereby pushing the
pedal back that last bit. (These are NOT the pedal swing pivots which allow
for rudder movement) After a bit they either bleed down, or the system cools
and reduces fluid pressure.
Check by getting the brakes to the stiff condition then pull back on the
tops of the pedals to force them fully back and see if that loosens the
brakes. (This also assumes the pedal rocker action has enough swing
clearence to let the master cyls fully extend.)
If this is the case the best fix is to loosen those pivots some as another
spring is something that could break/jam/whatever at the wrong time.
Air in the line would not cause this as the compensating port allows for air
or fluid to return immediately. Is also not likely to be gunk in the caliper
as that would probably not get better after a few minutes. The same would
also be true for the too tight pins that retain the floating calipers.
The one other option is the matco style parking brake valve could be not
fully opening both poppets thereby acting like one way check valves, if one
is installed. If the above test doesn't make it better remove the pants and
get them stiff, then open the bleeder for a tad and see if they loosen. This
will tell you if the P brake is holding the pressure on. (you could also try
working the P-brake valve when they are stiff and see if that suddenly
loosens them.)
W
---------------------------------
Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Message 4
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have found
an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting 155kias
with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6 inches,
I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was
with a little bit higher weight!
There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing so
easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have you
had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified or
further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here, but
theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed increase.
Excited!
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Jekyll,
I thought there may well be a difference ... and it is a pity that builders
don't get warned of this until they get the FWF kit. :) Thanks for the
heads up!
Is the difference due to a different location of the engine driven fuel
pump? Or is there some other reason? Can you tell me -where- the suggested
location might be? (I've had input from some other folks already, but want
to collect as much information as I can.) Maybe the smart move here would be
for me to order the OP-32 plan sheet from Van's ... even though my need to
otherwise order the FWF kit is months away. (Or maybe I should just order
the darn kit, and be done with it. Choices, choices.)
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Tue May 30 10:15:22 2006, Jekyll wrote :
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
>
>Dwight:
>
>IO-360 firewall penetration location IS DIFFERENT from the O-360 location. Drawing
OP-32 shows the correct location and the parts list. The drawing comes with
the FWF.
>
>Jekyll
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37372#37372
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Have you tried simply altering the CG and not the weight?
I think I remember reading somewhere that the shifted CG changes stabilized AOA
thereby changing drag characteristics.
Geek - not aerodynamicist...and I stayed at a Marriot this weekend instead of a
Holiday Inn!
-----Original Message-----
>From: DAVID REEL <dreel@cox.net>
>Sent: May 30, 2006 10:47 AM
>To: rvlist <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
>I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have found
>an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting 155kias
>with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6 inches,
>I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
>My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
>improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was
>with a little bit higher weight!
>
>There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
>nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing so
>easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have you
>had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified or
>further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here, but
>theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
>stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed increase.
>
>Excited!
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
Dwight:
If you are to the point of doing your fuel line passthrough, you are to the point
of needing your FWF. It comes with the parts you install on the FW behind the
engine such as the heater valve, the master and battery relays and the battery/battery
box to name a few.
The engine driven fuel pump is in the same location but you need a different fuel
line to accommodate the location. You said you are using a vertical induction
IO so, you will be getting O-360 finishing and FWF kits. Email or call Vans
for the full list of the FWF parts to allow you to add and delete parts as necessary
to adapt the O-360 for a vertical induction IO-360.
You need to delete the gascolator, gascolator bracket. Substitute certain fule
lines and throttle cable and throttle bracket.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37390#37390
Message 8
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A
> and have found an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9
> inches, I was getting 155kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500
> ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6 inches, I got 142kias
> with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and
> 154kt. Quite an improvement just by adding some weight in
> back. Yes, the fast flight was with a little bit higher weight!
>
> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the
> archives, but nothing related to CG location that I could
> find and certainly nothing so easy to get and of this
> magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have you had
> similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been
> quantified or further detailed? After all, I'm just
> comparing two test flights here, but theoretically, I'd guess
> the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch stability
> requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed increase.
>
> Excited!
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
Dave,
What were the fuel burns during those two runs? One cannot state that the
power was the same, only that the MAP and RPM were the same. You can vary
airspeed greatly with mixture.
A more aft cg is more efficient, but not that much. (The tail doesn't have
to generate as much downward lift.)
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 755 hours
Maple Grove, MN
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Hangar For Sale at KCNO (Chino, CA) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Sorry for the confusion, but the hangar has been taken off the market.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
David,
That is true in my Bonanza as well, although I have never tried to quantify it.
Less drag from less elevator (ruddivator) down force.
The Bonanza experts warn of CG change with fuel burn moving the CG aft and the
possibility of elevator sensitivity during the landing flare resulting in over
correction.
Did you notice increased elevator sensitivity?
DAVID REEL <dreel@cox.net> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL"
I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have found
an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting 155kias
with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6 inches,
I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was
with a little bit higher weight!
There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing so
easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have you
had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified or
further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here, but
theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed increase.
Excited!
Dave Reel - RV8A
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
of such a thing?
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
This has been discussed before on the 10 list. The heavy lift planes of
the military will shift loads in flight to do this same thing. How much
and to what degree, you would have to talk with a loadmaster, and they
tell real interesting stories!
So, yes it is possible, but to do it reliable in a small aircraft,
without getting your CG stuck in an aft position, is the big risk, and
not worth it in my book.
YMMV
Dan
RV10 40269
N289DT
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID REEL
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
found
an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting
155kias
with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6
inches,
I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F
outside.
My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight
was
with a little bit higher weight!
There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing
so
easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have
you
had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified
or
further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here,
but
theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed
increase.
Excited!
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 13
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco@cox.net>
I have a mono flightcom 403 that has alwqys had a slight echo, and it =
has a static discharge sound every so often. I want to upgrad and am =
thinking Sigtronics steri might be a good choice. Would like coments, =
and also will I have to change headst jacks? Charlie H
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
I saw some stuff at my last job - I'll try to contact the guy that had it.
It was pretty neat!
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>Sent: May 30, 2006 12:00 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: GPS Tracking...
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
>I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
>that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
>of such a thing?
>
>Thanks!
>-Bill
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Firewall Penetration Location |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Careful, guys. My Superior IO-360-B1B from Aerosport Power is a parallel
valve 180 hp engine with Airflow Performance fuel injection, which I believe
is also called the XP-360. It is confusing but common practice (and correct,
I think) to refer to the heavier angle valve 200 hp IO-360 as the IO-360.
They are different engines and require some different accessories. I have
the OP-32 RV-7 drawing (it came with my FWF kit), which is for the IO-360. I
don't know if the engine-driven fuel pump location is different from my
Aerosport IO-360-B1B, but it looks the same as the drawing.
Terry
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Jekyll,
I thought there may well be a difference ... and it is a pity that builders
don't get warned of this until they get the FWF kit. :) Thanks for the
heads up!
Is the difference due to a different location of the engine driven fuel
pump? Or is there some other reason? Can you tell me -where- the suggested
location might be? (I've had input from some other folks already, but want
to collect as much information as I can.) Maybe the smart move here would be
for me to order the OP-32 plan sheet from Van's ... even though my need to
otherwise order the FWF kit is months away. (Or maybe I should just order
the darn kit, and be done with it. Choices, choices.)
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Tue May 30 10:15:22 2006, Jekyll wrote :
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
>
>Dwight:
>
>IO-360 firewall penetration location IS DIFFERENT from the O-360 location.
Drawing OP-32 shows the correct location and the parts list. The drawing
comes with the FWF.
>
>Jekyll
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37372#37372
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" <klwerner@comcast.net>
Bill,
Some Glider guys around my home field use www.seeyou.ws
do not archive
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill VonDane=20
To: rv-list@matronics.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: RV-List: GPS Tracking...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
=3D
that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone =
know =3D
of such a thing?
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
=20
=20
--=20
5/29/2006
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <dan.beadle@inclinesoftworks.com>
Try Google Mashups. If you google bike mashup you will find some tutorials.
Takes a little fussing around, but it is free.
Not aviation based, but you can zoom down on land details.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: RV-List: GPS Tracking...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
of such a thing?
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: vinnfizz@aol.com
Try FlightSoft and Vista Moving Map. Vista has a flight record function that will
leave a trail of points that follows your movement. Timing of points is adjustable.
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
Sent: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:00:34 -0600
Subject: RV-List: GPS Tracking...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
of such a thing?
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <dan.beadle@inclinesoftworks.com>
This is basic aerodynamics. To get stability (AKA, hard to flare), you move
the CG forward. Think Lawn Dart. In this mode, the tail actually pulls
down, not up. This results in the wing needing to produce more lift (weight
+ the tails negative lift so that total lift = weight).
If you move the CG back, you have less and less down-lift on the tail,
letting the wing work less, thus getting less induced drag. Faster.
A heavier airplane, with the same CG, should fly slower than the same plane,
same CG, when it is lighter. The reason is the heavier airplane must have a
higher angle of attack to produce the needed additional lift. That means
more induced drag.
The CG limits are set to give reasonable handling. The forward CG is
limited by the ability to flare.
The Aft CG is limited by the need for positive stability. If we moved the CG
back to where the tail was lifting, we would have no stability. In the
normal range, as the plane slows from the trimmed AS, the wing and the tail
both lose some lift. But the tail is now lifting less in the downward
direction, letting the nose fall down a bit and resume the trimmed AS.
If we move too far back, we lose the stability feature making the airplane
difficult or impossible to fly.
Rule of thumb: smooth air, load for aft CG (within limits). Rough air,
keep a more forward CG.
So your data does make sense. (But the faster/heavier combination is
probably just due to aft CG.)
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sherman Butler
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
David,
That is true in my Bonanza as well, although I have never tried to
quantify it. Less drag from less elevator (ruddivator) down force.
The Bonanza experts warn of CG change with fuel burn moving the CG aft and
the possibility of elevator sensitivity during the landing flare resulting
in over correction.
Did you notice increased elevator sensitivity?
DAVID REEL <dreel@cox.net> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL"
I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have found
an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting 155kias
with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6 inches,
I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was
with a little bit higher weight!
There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing so
easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have you
had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified or
further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here, but
theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed increase.
Excited!
Dave Reel - RV8A
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with
Voice.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Hanging my IO-320 - lower mount spacer |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
Has anyone else had this experience ?
I hung my engine this weekend - but I think it needs to come
off again. Vans supplies 2 large diameter AN7 washers in the
engine mount bolt kit that are to shim the forward faces of the
lower engine mounts off the engine so that the mount clears a
"step" in the engine casing. The "step" is the mounting flange
for the oil sump.
All's well on the right lower mount, but on the lower left its
as if the shim isn't thick enough, or more to the point, the
flange on the engine protrudes too much. Consequence is that
mount doesn't sit flush on the engine - its slightly at an
angle with the top part of the mount making contact and the
lower part interfering with the oil sump flange.
Is this a common problem or am I breaking new ground here :) I
guess the obvious solution is to pull the engine and grind off
the flange on the oil sump mount. I'm more than a little
hesitant about doing surgery on my engine.
__g__
==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
I cannot go into details as I am a Beta Tester but take a look here ...
http://www.appareo.com/
James
On 5/30/06, Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com> wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
> that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
> of such a thing?
>
> Thanks!
> -Bill
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
On May 30, 2006, at 10:00 AM, Bill VonDane wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
> that will display it on a map to show where I have been...
http://www.seeyou.si/
This is fabulous software, designed for glider pilots. You would
have to check to be sure it can handle your data. It is most
commonly used with .igc files that glider data loggers generate, but
I know some people use it with common Garmin hiking units.
Do not archive
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
Message 23
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Bill,
I don't see it on their website, but Blue Mountain had some software for
analyzing data from their EFIS/one that would plot a 3d map of your flight.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: RV-List: GPS Tracking...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
of such a thing?
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
> that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone
> know = of such a thing?
I download the tracks from my Garmin GPS into the Garmin MapSource program.
It requires that you have purchased some MapSource data from Garmin, of
course, so you have a map to overlay it on, but I have most of North
America so it works for me.
I experimented with downloading the track and converting it to an XML file
that I could read into a website and overlay on a Google map... It worked
very well, but I found that the performance seriously bogged down beyond
about 50 points in the GPS track. It works great for tracking yourself if
you're jogging or hiking, but not so good when you fly across country.
Here's a website showing how it works for runners. I wanted to do the same
thing for pilots, but the API can't handle the large number of points in a
typical flight track.
<http://www.favoriterun.com/>
-Rob
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I don't see it as an especially big risk, providing it's a fairly
simple load move. People don't think twice about putting another
person in the rear seat, which is basically what we'd be talking
about here, or putting some baggage in the tail.
I first noticed this phenomenon in my Sundowner when I brought
along a CFI buddy and his girlfriend, who was a pretty chunky chick.
It was weird that we had a noticeably higher cruise speed with
her, than without.
So sure, if you're going to fly X/C somewhere, do the load
calculations and if you're way forward on CG, feel free to
NOT put that big pile of bags in the rear seats, but
move them to the baggage area if it fits there and weighs
out properly. Just don't go aft of CG. That's what the
range is there for.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> This has been discussed before on the 10 list. The heavy lift planes of
> the military will shift loads in flight to do this same thing. How much
> and to what degree, you would have to talk with a loadmaster, and they
> tell real interesting stories!
> So, yes it is possible, but to do it reliable in a small aircraft,
> without getting your CG stuck in an aft position, is the big risk, and
> not worth it in my book.
> YMMV
> Dan
> RV10 40269
> N289DT
>
> Do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID REEL
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
> To: rvlist
> Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
> found
> an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting
> 155kias
> with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6
> inches,
> I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F
> outside.
> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
> improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight
> was
> with a little bit higher weight!
>
> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
> nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing
> so
> easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have
> you
> had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified
> or
> further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here,
> but
> theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
> stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed
> increase.
>
> Excited!
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
Bill VonDane wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
>I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
>that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
>of such a thing?
>
>
If you can save the tracking data to a file, and send it to me, I bet I
could figure out how to import it into Street Atlas USA. I have
automated setting way points from files with lat long points in them.
It's possible it will import straight in, worst case I just have to
write a simple program that converts the data to the right format.
Street Atlas USA is a pretty inexpensive mapping program with street
maps of all of the USA and I think some in Canada and Mexico too.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
Someone, on some list, suggested a system of water bottles that you empty /
fill as needed. I know about the Bonanza gaining aft CG as fuel burns, but
not sure about the RV's. I think the -10 might. One might have full water
on take off and empty as the CG naturally moves aft with fuel burn. The
amount of water dependent on the load calculations.
John Jessen - Tailcone - RV10
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
--> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I don't see it as an especially big risk, providing it's a fairly simple
load move. People don't think twice about putting another person in the
rear seat, which is basically what we'd be talking about here, or putting
some baggage in the tail.
I first noticed this phenomenon in my Sundowner when I brought along a CFI
buddy and his girlfriend, who was a pretty chunky chick.
It was weird that we had a noticeably higher cruise speed with her, than
without.
So sure, if you're going to fly X/C somewhere, do the load calculations and
if you're way forward on CG, feel free to NOT put that big pile of bags in
the rear seats, but move them to the baggage area if it fits there and
weighs
out properly. Just don't go aft of CG. That's what the
range is there for.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R."
> --> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> This has been discussed before on the 10 list. The heavy lift planes
> of the military will shift loads in flight to do this same thing. How
> much and to what degree, you would have to talk with a loadmaster, and
> they tell real interesting stories!
> So, yes it is possible, but to do it reliable in a small aircraft,
> without getting your CG stuck in an aft position, is the big risk, and
> not worth it in my book.
> YMMV
> Dan
> RV10 40269
> N289DT
>
> Do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID REEL
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
> To: rvlist
> Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
> found an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was
> getting 155kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F
> outside. At 79.6 inches, I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500
> ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite
> an improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast
> flight was with a little bit higher weight!
>
> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
> nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing
> so easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is
> have you had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been
> quantified or further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two
> test flights here, but theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag
> due to decreased pitch stability requirements as the CG moves aft
> would explain the speed increase.
>
> Excited!
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Hi Dave,
I discovered the same effect in my RV-6A which is a bit nose heavy. Best
top speed was when I had the baggage compartment load to the max with
camping gear and full wing tanks. I suspect you are correct in that the aft
CG results in less down component from the horizonal stabilizer resulting in
less drag. The wing incident may also be a bit more optimum (less) also
resulting in less drag. As best I could determine my speed increase was
between 8-10 MPH.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
> found
> an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting
> 155kias
> with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6
> inches,
> I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F outside.
> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
> improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was
> with a little bit higher weight!
>
> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
> nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing so
> easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have
> you
> had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified or
> further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here,
> but
> theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
> stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed
> increase.
>
> Excited!
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
Message 29
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com>
PS Engineering all the way...can't beat the quality or
customer service...not too much more expensive, but
the audio quality is far superior, IMHO...I've had
both sigtronics and PS Engineering...there's a reason
that sigtronics sells "budget quality" headsets and
avionics.
Spend the extra money on PS Engineering in my opinion.
Paul Besing
--- Charles Heathco <cheathco@cox.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco"
> <cheathco@cox.net>
>
> I have a mono flightcom 403 that has alwqys had a
> slight echo, and it =
> has a static discharge sound every so often. I want
> to upgrad and am =
> thinking Sigtronics steri might be a good choice.
> Would like coments, =
> and also will I have to change headst jacks? Charlie
> H
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Hi Bill,
How about these for starters:
http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/ - free
http://www.obviously.com/gis/gpx_loader.html - looks to be free
http://mehere.glenmurphy.com/ - ???
Goodluck,
/\/elson
On Tue, 30 May 2006, Bill VonDane wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
> that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
> of such a thing?
>
> Thanks!
> -Bill
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
~~ ** ~~ Reseach has shown that Mondays account for 1/7th of your time ~~ ** ~~
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Update... I am not necessarily looking for aviation mapping, but topo =
mapping for tracking dirt biking trips...
Thanks!
-Bill
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill VonDane=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: GPS Tracking...
I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
of such a thing?
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | mixture cable flexing |
--> RV-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
I have an io-360 with the AFP fuel controller mounted below the sump
(vertical induction). AFP supplies nice, heavy duty brackets with the fuel
controller for mounting the mixture and throttle cables. However, with the
mixture cable in particular, the distance between the firewall pass-through
point and the point where the cable attaches to the bracket is very short
- maybe 4 inches. This short distance doesnt allow any room for curving
the cable and allowing it to flex during engine shaking etc, especially
since the eyeball socket at the firewall cable does not allow the cable to
slip in and out at all. Do folks generally build-in a little flex in the
mixture and throttle cables forward of the firewall, or is it pretty much a
straight shot from the firewall to the rod-end bearing? Dont I have a
legitimate concern with respect to the need for cable flexing?
thanks for any insights
Erich Weaver
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
On May 30, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Bill VonDane wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> Update... I am not necessarily looking for aviation mapping, but
> topo =
> mapping for tracking dirt biking trips...
Oh! I use Terrain Navigator for hiking. Works good.
http://www.sonic.net/~ed/index.html
Do not archive
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Smitty" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Funny that this topic came up. Over the weekend, My wife, 10 year old son
and I went a short one hour flight in our C172. My 10 year old pitched a
royal hissy, wanting to ride in front with me. Rather than argue, my wife
reluctantly volunteered to sit in back seat. This was the first time in
many pounds since we have done this. The take-off felt a little weird but
manageable. When we leveled off I noticed that the ground seemed to going
by a lot faster than usual. We were going 15kt faster!
On the return fight, my wife made the kiddo sit in the back. Man, that was
a long (and slow) trip back. Hmmm, in the future, how do get the wife in
the back seat without being obvious? I guess I'll keep my mouth shut and
fly slow.
Ya'll have a goodun!
Smitty
http://SmittysRV.com
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I don't see it as an especially big risk, providing it's a fairly
> simple load move. People don't think twice about putting another
> person in the rear seat, which is basically what we'd be talking
> about here, or putting some baggage in the tail.
>
> I first noticed this phenomenon in my Sundowner when I brought
> along a CFI buddy and his girlfriend, who was a pretty chunky chick.
> It was weird that we had a noticeably higher cruise speed with
> her, than without.
>
> So sure, if you're going to fly X/C somewhere, do the load
> calculations and if you're way forward on CG, feel free to
> NOT put that big pile of bags in the rear seats, but
> move them to the baggage area if it fits there and weighs
> out properly. Just don't go aft of CG. That's what the
> range is there for.
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
>
>
> Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>>
>> This has been discussed before on the 10 list. The heavy lift planes of
>> the military will shift loads in flight to do this same thing. How much
>> and to what degree, you would have to talk with a loadmaster, and they
>> tell real interesting stories!
>> So, yes it is possible, but to do it reliable in a small aircraft,
>> without getting your CG stuck in an aft position, is the big risk, and
>> not worth it in my book.
>> YMMV
>> Dan
>> RV10 40269
>> N289DT
>>
>> Do not archive
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID REEL
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
>> To: rvlist
>> Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>>
>> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
>> found
>> an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting
>> 155kias
>> with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6
>> inches,
>> I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F
>> outside.
>> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
>> improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight
>> was
>> with a little bit higher weight!
>>
>> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
>> nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing
>> so
>> easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have
>> you
>> had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified
>> or
>> further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here,
>> but
>> theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
>> stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed
>> increase.
>>
>> Excited!
>>
>> Dave Reel - RV8A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
Hmmm, in the future, how do get the wife in
the back seat without being obvious?
Smitty, just think back a few years. How did you do it then?
anonymous RV-6A
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick McCraw" <rick@n608ef.us>
I like Dan's explanation, but will add a bit more.
Specifically, we require the CG to be forward of the center of lift (CL) in
order to have a stable aircraft (and one whose nose drops when the wing is
stalled). The closer the CG gets to the CL, the less induced drag, but the
less stable the plane will be. If the CG should go aft of the CL, all bets
are off in terms of controllability.
Another e-mail commented on Bonanzas and how their CG moves with fuel burn.
Whether the CG moves aft with fuel burn should depend on the CG of the tank
and its fuel relative to the CG of the plane. I fly an A-36 Bonanza, and
when weight is up (hence, realistically, with a CG farther aft than when
lightly loaded), I have indeed noticed greater pitch sensitivity after a
long flight. When I plan flights at higher weights, I check my loading by
calculating CG for zero fuel, just to be on the safe side. For extra
margin), I try to land with fuller tanks, too.
Rick
A-36, RV-7 in process
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Beadle
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
<dan.beadle@inclinesoftworks.com>
This is basic aerodynamics. To get stability (AKA, hard to flare), you move
the CG forward. Think Lawn Dart. In this mode, the tail actually pulls
down, not up. This results in the wing needing to produce more lift (weight
+ the tails negative lift so that total lift = weight).
If you move the CG back, you have less and less down-lift on the tail,
letting the wing work less, thus getting less induced drag. Faster.
A heavier airplane, with the same CG, should fly slower than the same plane,
same CG, when it is lighter. The reason is the heavier airplane must have a
higher angle of attack to produce the needed additional lift. That means
more induced drag.
The CG limits are set to give reasonable handling. The forward CG is
limited by the ability to flare.
The Aft CG is limited by the need for positive stability. If we moved the CG
back to where the tail was lifting, we would have no stability. In the
normal range, as the plane slows from the trimmed AS, the wing and the tail
both lose some lift. But the tail is now lifting less in the downward
direction, letting the nose fall down a bit and resume the trimmed AS.
If we move too far back, we lose the stability feature making the airplane
difficult or impossible to fly.
Rule of thumb: smooth air, load for aft CG (within limits). Rough air,
keep a more forward CG.
So your data does make sense. (But the faster/heavier combination is
probably just due to aft CG.)
Dan
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
Hand her a camera and point out she can take photos out both sides on
the way home :-)
-J
do not archive
On May 30, 2006, at 3:15 PM, Smitty wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Smitty" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>
> On the return fight, my wife made the kiddo sit in the back. Man,
> that was
> a long (and slow) trip back. Hmmm, in the future, how do get the
> wife in
> the back seat without being obvious? I guess I'll keep my mouth
> shut and
> fly slow.
>
> Ya'll have a goodun!
> Smitty
> http://SmittysRV.com
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "bdjones1965" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
Couple of points on this topic:
1. A friend said they used to (probably still do) add steel weights to the tail
of AT-6's that race in Reno for speed improvements. Can't recall, but I believe
they have minimum weights and are probably working with that number but just
shifting the CG aft.
2. A few years back I started trying to quantify this situation with adding weight
aft. I never got a conclusive answer, but wondered if the benefit of adding
ballast to move the CG aft offset the penalty of added overall weight.
Example: I am flying (racing) with a near empty airplane. Would the plane be
faster with 50-lbs of ballast in the rear baggage compartment than without the
50-lbs? Or faster with 50-lbs of ballast and if I lost 20-lbs?? ;)
Seriously, it sounds like there may be some conditions where the added overall
weight to move the CG aft may help.
Bryan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37502#37502
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
Passed on for what it's worth ...
I've seen it demonstrated, in the big iron, when the airlines loaded the a/c
tail heavy, the elevator would raise the tail and thereby, create an airfoil
shape. The hs/elevator would sort of act like an airfoil and create lift.
The up movement of the tail would reduce the wing incidence and shed some
induced drag.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A Electrical
> I discovered the same effect in my RV-6A which is a bit nose heavy. Best
> top speed was when I had the baggage compartment load to the max with
> camping gear and full wing tanks. I suspect you are correct in that the
> aft
> CG results in less down component from the horizonal stabilizer resulting
> in
> less drag. The wing incident may also be a bit more optimum (less) also
> resulting in less drag. As best I could determine my speed increase was
> between 8-10 MPH.
>
> Ed
> Ed Anderson
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> Matthews, NC
> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
You could do some very careful calculations, then try adding a much
smaller weight in the far aft tailcone area somewhere. You wouldn't
need remotely as much ballast as something in the baggage compartment
- a few pounds would be pretty significant.
Not something you would want to do casually. If remotely in doubt,
you'd want to reweigh the plane afterwards and reverify the CG
information.
As you say, 50 pounds of ballast could easily offset the advantages
of pushing the CG back. This would at least require far less than 50
pounds.
-Joe
On May 30, 2006, at 4:35 PM, bdjones1965 wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "bdjones1965" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>
> Couple of points on this topic:
>
> 1. A friend said they used to (probably still do) add steel
> weights to the tail of AT-6's that race in Reno for speed
> improvements. Can't recall, but I believe they have minimum
> weights and are probably working with that number but just shifting
> the CG aft.
>
> 2. A few years back I started trying to quantify this situation
> with adding weight aft. I never got a conclusive answer, but
> wondered if the benefit of adding ballast to move the CG aft offset
> the penalty of added overall weight.
>
> Example: I am flying (racing) with a near empty airplane. Would
> the plane be faster with 50-lbs of ballast in the rear baggage
> compartment than without the 50-lbs? Or faster with 50-lbs of
> ballast and if I lost 20-lbs?? ;)
>
> Seriously, it sounds like there may be some conditions where the
> added overall weight to move the CG aft may help.
>
> Bryan
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
Simple, get an RV-4, RV-8 or Harmon Rocket II. If she isn't a pilot, she
has to sit in the back. :-)
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Smitty" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Smitty" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>
> Funny that this topic came up. Over the weekend, My wife, 10 year old son
> and I went a short one hour flight in our C172. My 10 year old pitched a
> royal hissy, wanting to ride in front with me. Rather than argue, my wife
> reluctantly volunteered to sit in back seat. This was the first time in
> many pounds since we have done this. The take-off felt a little weird but
> manageable. When we leveled off I noticed that the ground seemed to going
> by a lot faster than usual. We were going 15kt faster!
>
> On the return fight, my wife made the kiddo sit in the back. Man, that was
> a long (and slow) trip back. Hmmm, in the future, how do get the wife in
> the back seat without being obvious? I guess I'll keep my mouth shut and
> fly slow.
>
> Ya'll have a goodun!
> Smitty
> http://SmittysRV.com
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> I don't see it as an especially big risk, providing it's a fairly
>> simple load move. People don't think twice about putting another
>> person in the rear seat, which is basically what we'd be talking
>> about here, or putting some baggage in the tail.
>>
>> I first noticed this phenomenon in my Sundowner when I brought
>> along a CFI buddy and his girlfriend, who was a pretty chunky chick.
>> It was weird that we had a noticeably higher cruise speed with
>> her, than without.
>>
>> So sure, if you're going to fly X/C somewhere, do the load
>> calculations and if you're way forward on CG, feel free to
>> NOT put that big pile of bags in the rear seats, but
>> move them to the baggage area if it fits there and weighs
>> out properly. Just don't go aft of CG. That's what the
>> range is there for.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>>>
>>> This has been discussed before on the 10 list. The heavy lift planes of
>>> the military will shift loads in flight to do this same thing. How much
>>> and to what degree, you would have to talk with a loadmaster, and they
>>> tell real interesting stories!
>>> So, yes it is possible, but to do it reliable in a small aircraft,
>>> without getting your CG stuck in an aft position, is the big risk, and
>>> not worth it in my book.
>>> YMMV
>>> Dan
>>> RV10 40269
>>> N289DT
>>>
>>> Do not archive
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID REEL
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
>>> To: rvlist
>>> Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
>>>
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>>>
>>> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
>>> found
>>> an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was getting
>>> 155kias
>>> with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F outside. At 79.6
>>> inches,
>>> I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and 64 degrees F
>>> outside.
>>> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an
>>> improvement just by adding some weight in back. Yes, the fast flight
>>> was
>>> with a little bit higher weight!
>>>
>>> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
>>> nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing
>>> so
>>> easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is have
>>> you
>>> had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been quantified
>>> or
>>> further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test flights here,
>>> but
>>> theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to decreased pitch
>>> stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain the speed
>>> increase.
>>>
>>> Excited!
>>>
>>> Dave Reel - RV8A
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: stiff brakes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charles Reiche <charlieray@optonline.net>
The wonders never cease to amaze me. Airplanes that fix themselves!
Avionics fixed by UPS!!!
Do not archive.
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Reiley" <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: stiff brakes
> --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
> Did you read this Charles?
>
> According to Wheeler North we must be smoking crack. We never even fixed
> the brakes on the airplanes we worked on, as bleeding the brakes or even
> straightening up a caliper and brake line that was forcing a sideways bind
> could never have caused the brakes to have an issue! I guess is was a
> miracle...
>
> Darrell
>
> "do not archive"
>
>
> Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North
>
> Most likely is the pedal rocker pivots are too stiff and the small
> compensating valve spring in the master cyl can't open, thereby pushing
> the
> pedal back that last bit. (These are NOT the pedal swing pivots which
> allow
> for rudder movement) After a bit they either bleed down, or the system
> cools
> and reduces fluid pressure.
>
> Check by getting the brakes to the stiff condition then pull back on the
> tops of the pedals to force them fully back and see if that loosens the
> brakes. (This also assumes the pedal rocker action has enough swing
> clearence to let the master cyls fully extend.)
>
> If this is the case the best fix is to loosen those pivots some as another
> spring is something that could break/jam/whatever at the wrong time.
>
> Air in the line would not cause this as the compensating port allows for
> air
> or fluid to return immediately. Is also not likely to be gunk in the
> caliper
> as that would probably not get better after a few minutes. The same would
> also be true for the too tight pins that retain the floating calipers.
>
> The one other option is the matco style parking brake valve could be not
> fully opening both poppets thereby acting like one way check valves, if
> one
> is installed. If the above test doesn't make it better remove the pants
> and
> get them stiff, then open the bleeder for a tad and see if they loosen.
> This
> will tell you if the P brake is holding the pressure on. (you could also
> try
> working the P-brake valve when they are stiff and see if that suddenly
> loosens them.)
>
> W
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with
> Voice.
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: mixture cable flexing |
--> RV-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
Erich:
I am not flying yet, but I was also uncomfortable with that short
run. All connections between the firewall and the engine should have
plenty of slack in them. Another local builder whose 6A has been flying
for a long time now advised me to penetrate the firewall well above -
about 12" above - the fuel controller and have the cable do a graceful
"S" down to the attach bracket. That is what I did for both throttle
and mixture. You can have too little slack, but too much is not a
problem, so err on the side of too much.
BTW, mine is a vert. induction, so this may not be an issue for you,
but I found the AFP-supplied cable mounting brackets to be unusable on
a 6A and made my own which were essentially the mirror image of the AFP
brackets. There just isn't room to get the standard brackets to fit
around the engine mount tubes on a 6A without hacking away more of the
bracket than I was comfortable with. This allowed me to maintain a good
separation (about 1/2" as I recall) between the brackets and the engine
mount tubes.
Also, I had very good experience dealing with Cablecraft. They're
expensive, but their cables have a shorter bend radius spec than the
cheaper ones from Spruce. They also claim to have a gradual failure
mode. I had some shipping damage on my first shipment and they made
good on it, no questions asked, no fooling around with UPS claims, so
their customer service was excellent.
Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
>However, with the
>mixture cable in particular, the distance between the firewall pass-through
>point and the point where the cable attaches to the bracket is very short
>- maybe 4 inches. This short distance doesnt allow any room for curving
>the cable and allowing it to flex during engine shaking etc, especially
>since the eyeball socket at the firewall cable does not allow the cable to
>slip in and out at all.
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>Simple, get an RV-4, RV-8 or Harmon Rocket II. If she isn't a pilot, she
>has to sit in the back. :-)
Possible problem is that if she has any hint of claustrophobia she
may never fly with you again (at least in a -4).
Ron Lee
Do not archive
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Re: GPS Tracking... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Hi Bill,
The http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/ does topo overlays. Under 'Draw A Map' ->
'Background Map' -> 'USGS: Topo Map: tiles'. You can also upload your GPS data
(2 MB worth) for plotting.
There's also some pretty cool demos - look under 'Examples' from the main page.
Regards,
/\/elson
On Tue, 30 May 2006, Bill VonDane wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> Update... I am not necessarily looking for aviation mapping, but topo =
> mapping for tracking dirt biking trips...
>
> Thanks!
> -Bill
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Bill VonDane=20
> To: rv-list@matronics.com=20
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:00 AM
> Subject: GPS Tracking...
>
>
> I am looking for some software that I can download GPS track info to =
> that will display it on a map to show where I have been... Anyone know =
> of such a thing?
>
> Thanks!
> -Bill
>
> do not archive
>
>
--
~~ ** ~~ Reseach has shown that Mondays account for 1/7th of your time ~~ ** ~~
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
--- DAVID REEL <dreel@cox.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL"
> <dreel@cox.net>
>
> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing
> of my RV8A and have found
> an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9
> inches, I was getting 155kias
> with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F
> outside. At 79.6 inches,
> I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500 ft, and
> 64 degrees F outside.
> My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of roughly 169kt
> and 154kt. Quite an
> improvement just by adding some weight in back.
> Yes, the fast flight was
> with a little bit higher weight!
>
> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in
> the archives, but
> nothing related to CG location that I could find and
> certainly nothing so
> easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question
> to everyone is have you
> had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this
> has been quantified or
> further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two
> test flights here, but
> theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to
> decreased pitch
> stability requirements as the CG moves aft would
> explain the speed increase.
>
> Excited!
A few comments:
1. If you keep the rpm and MP the same, the power
produced increases as you increase altitude (due, I
think, to the lower exhaust back pressure helping
improve the engine's breathing). So, the test at
5,500 ft was with higher power than the test at 4,500
ft. The air temperature was also quite a bit lower
for the 5,500 ft test point. I don't know what engine
you have, but if you have an IO-360-A series engine,
the power at 5,500 ft was about 67.2%, and the power
at 4,500 ft was about 65.1%. If you had an O-360-A
series engine, the power at 5,500 ft was about 75%,
and at 4,500 ft it was about 72.6%.
As Alex Peterson mentioned, the mixture setting could
also play a role, as you can change the power by
changing the mixture, at the same rpm and MP.
2. ASIs have instrument error, and the error will be
different at different indicated airspeeds. Static
system position error is also different at different
indicated airspeeds.
Given items 1 and 2, it would be very interesting to
repeat these tests at the same altitude. It will also
be interesting to record the fuel flow, to be sure it
is the same for each test.
3. At a given weight, there is less drag as you move
the CG aft (with the CG in approved limits). The tail
has to produce a down force to balance out the nose
down pitching moment from the wing, and the fact that
the CG is ahead of the wing's centre of pressure. The
total lift that the wing has to produce is equal to
the aircraft's weight, plus the amount of down force
that the tail is producing. If you keep the aircraft
weight the same, and move the CG aft, the amount of
down force that the tail needs to produce decreases.
This reduces the drag from the tail, but more
importantly, it also reduces the amount of lift that
the wing has to generate.
So, if you move some item of weight aft (baggage, a
body, etc), that will help reduce drag.
4. If you can't move an item of weight aft, some
people are interested to know if you can improve
performance by adding weight aft. Ideally, the weight
you add would be in the area of the horizontal stab,
or further aft. In this case, the amount of down
force that the tail needs to produce is decreased.
This reduces drag, as there is less induced drag from
the tail. But, the amount of lift that the wing has
to generate has not changed, for as far as it is
concerned, we have simply replaced some down force
from the tail by down force from gravity on our added
weight. So the wing's induced drag does not change.
5. If you can't put the added weight at the HS, what
about putting it in the baggage compartment? In this
case, some of the additional weight is supported by
the wing, and some by the tail. So the amount of tail
down force decreases a bit, but the amount of lift
that the wing has to generate increases. Depending on
how far aft the baggage compartment is, the total drag
may be increased or decreased. My gut feel is that in
most cases the total drag would be increased.
6. it is very difficult to obtain repeatable speed vs
power data. Any one test point may be in error due to
poor air quality, not waiting long enough for the
speed to stabilize, errors in setting the power or
mixture, or errors in recording the data, etc. I
wouldn't draw any conclusions from one set of tests.
If you can do the same test on three or four different
days and get the same speed vs power, then you know
you have something.
Keep us posted as you do more tests.
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: stiff brakes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Yes, on the UPS fix...has happened a multiple times. In my 14 years of being around
aircraft, flying, building, owning a flight school and performing maintenance
on my aircraft there's no way I can know anything. But, who really cares...
Darrell
"DO NOT ARCHIVE"
Charles Reiche <charlieray@optonline.net> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: Charles Reiche
The wonders never cease to amaze me. Airplanes that fix themselves!
Avionics fixed by UPS!!!
Do not archive.
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Reiley"
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: stiff brakes
> --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley
>
> Did you read this Charles?
>
> According to Wheeler North we must be smoking crack. We never even fixed
> the brakes on the airplanes we worked on, as bleeding the brakes or even
> straightening up a caliper and brake line that was forcing a sideways bind
> could never have caused the brakes to have an issue! I guess is was a
> miracle...
>
> Darrell
>
> "do not archive"
>
>
> Wheeler North wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North
>
> Most likely is the pedal rocker pivots are too stiff and the small
> compensating valve spring in the master cyl can't open, thereby pushing
> the
> pedal back that last bit. (These are NOT the pedal swing pivots which
> allow
> for rudder movement) After a bit they either bleed down, or the system
> cools
> and reduces fluid pressure.
>
> Check by getting the brakes to the stiff condition then pull back on the
> tops of the pedals to force them fully back and see if that loosens the
> brakes. (This also assumes the pedal rocker action has enough swing
> clearence to let the master cyls fully extend.)
>
> If this is the case the best fix is to loosen those pivots some as another
> spring is something that could break/jam/whatever at the wrong time.
>
> Air in the line would not cause this as the compensating port allows for
> air
> or fluid to return immediately. Is also not likely to be gunk in the
> caliper
> as that would probably not get better after a few minutes. The same would
> also be true for the too tight pins that retain the floating calipers.
>
> The one other option is the matco style parking brake valve could be not
> fully opening both poppets thereby acting like one way check valves, if
> one
> is installed. If the above test doesn't make it better remove the pants
> and
> get them stiff, then open the bleeder for a tad and see if they loosen.
> This
> will tell you if the P brake is holding the pressure on. (you could also
> try
> working the P-brake valve when they are stiff and see if that suddenly
> loosens them.)
>
> W
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with
> Voice.
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get Yahoo! Messenger
with Voice
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: stiff brakes |
--> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net>
Darrell,
I saw nothing in Wheeler's post that should cause this kind of nasty
reply. It was very good information about another possible cause for
this problem and did not attack anybody or their ideas. We've run enough
good people off this list with this kind of comment and I for one, would
like to see it stop. Say something constructive or keep it to yourself.
Dave B
Darrell Reiley wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
>Did you read this Charles?
>
> According to Wheeler North we must be smoking crack. We never even fixed the
brakes on the airplanes we worked on, as bleeding the brakes or even straightening
up a caliper and brake line that was forcing a sideways bind could never
have caused the brakes to have an issue! I guess is was a miracle...
>
> Darrell
>
> "do not archive"
>
>
>
>
>Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North
>
>Most likely is the pedal rocker pivots are too stiff and the small
>compensating valve spring in the master cyl can't open, thereby pushing the
>pedal back that last bit. (These are NOT the pedal swing pivots which allow
>for rudder movement) After a bit they either bleed down, or the system cools
>and reduces fluid pressure.
>
>Check by getting the brakes to the stiff condition then pull back on the
>tops of the pedals to force them fully back and see if that loosens the
>brakes. (This also assumes the pedal rocker action has enough swing
>clearence to let the master cyls fully extend.)
>
>If this is the case the best fix is to loosen those pivots some as another
>spring is something that could break/jam/whatever at the wrong time.
>
>Air in the line would not cause this as the compensating port allows for air
>or fluid to return immediately. Is also not likely to be gunk in the caliper
>as that would probably not get better after a few minutes. The same would
>also be true for the too tight pins that retain the floating calipers.
>
>The one other option is the matco style parking brake valve could be not
>fully opening both poppets thereby acting like one way check valves, if one
>is installed. If the above test doesn't make it better remove the pants and
>get them stiff, then open the bleeder for a tad and see if they loosen. This
>will tell you if the P brake is holding the pressure on. (you could also try
>working the P-brake valve when they are stiff and see if that suddenly
>loosens them.)
>
>W
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | the ole -4 vs -8 vs HRII thread |
Cc: "rocket-list" <rocket-list@matronics.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Since I've flown in the back seat of an RV-4 with & without heel cups and
the HRII with them. (6-0 240#) I think I'm in a position to talk. The -4 W/O
puts you knees in a very drawn up & uncomfortable position then compared to
the same -4 with heel cups. HRII is a whole 'nother ballgame, wider, longer,
faster and with larger heel cups. Room to move & reposition during flight.
Elbows, shoulders & knees that touch NOTHING (not even parts of the other
person in the front seat ie: RV-6,7,9,) unless you want them to. Have not
flown in the rear seat of a -8 yet but have sat in one with the canopy
closed. Better than the -4 but not as roomy a Rocket.
I've said it before BUT I'll say it again. -4 front seat pilots NEED to fly
in the back seat With & W/O heel cups. The very FIRST comment when we gave a
ride to a -4 builder/pilot was "Wow, those cups made all the difference in
the world". Not Wow, what climbing, speed etc you would think about him
saying after a Rocket ride. Nope, the difference the heel cups made.
BUT don't take my word for it go sit in the back seat of -4 W/O and then
with. OR drop by APV & we'll prove it to ya'll. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee@pcisys.net>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
>
>>Simple, get an RV-4, RV-8 or Harmon Rocket II. If she isn't a pilot, she
>>has to sit in the back. :-)
>
>
> Possible problem is that if she has any hint of claustrophobia she
> may never fly with you again (at least in a -4).
>
> Ron Lee
>
> Do not archive
Message 50
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|
| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Kraus" <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
I see the same thing in my -4. Put about 100-120 lbs in the back seat
and gain about 10 kts. It is very noticeable. Next time you fly solo,
trim out the plane and look at the level the elevator sits relative to
the HS. Add a passenger and look again. In my plane with a 120lb
passenger, the elevators will be almost level with the HS, but flying
solo they are quite a bit different.
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DAVID REEL
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing of my RV8A and have
found an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9 inches, I was
getting 155kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft, and 42 degrees F
outside. At 79.6 inches, I got 142kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500
ft, and 64 degrees F outside. My whiz wheel gives true airspeeds of
roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an improvement just by adding some
weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was with a little bit higher
weight!
There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in the archives, but
nothing related to CG location that I could find and certainly nothing
so easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my question to everyone is
have you had similar experience? Do you know anywhere this has been
quantified or further detailed? After all, I'm just comparing two test
flights here, but theoretically, I'd guess the decrease in drag due to
decreased pitch stability requirements as the CG moves aft would explain
the speed increase.
Excited!
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 51
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
Of course, marrying wisely helps a lot too. My wife watched me fly an F-4
for twenty years and never even had one thought other than the Pilot sat up
front and the other person sat in the back. She picked the RV-4 as the
starting point of my building a plane. The RV-4 changed to a Harmon Rocket
very early and didn't require reworking.
Gummi
>>Simple, get an RV-4, RV-8 or Harmon Rocket II. If she isn't a pilot, she
>>has to sit in the back. :-)
>
>
> Possible problem is that if she has any hint of claustrophobia she
> may never fly with you again (at least in a -4).
>
> Ron Lee
>
Do not archive
Message 52
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "dick martin" <martin@gbonline.com>
Joe and others,
5 years ago when I first began racing the Air Venture race and others, I
added a lead pig (approx 10 lbs) to the tail area of my RV8 to improve the
CG. I mounted it just aft of the tail wheel in the tail cone. It fit very
nicely and did improve the airspeed. However after a couple hundred hours ,
I noticed that my tailwheel spring rod was bending (taking a set) . I
removed the tail weight and replaced the tailwheel attach rod. I now use a
lead shot bag, 25 lbs strapped to the baggage floor and installed or removed
as needed with a heavy passenger. The speed improvement is about the same
with either of the about the same.
On a separate note: I am getting ready for the Air Venture race this summer
and would encourage all of you who have flying airplanes to particiipate.
Don't worry about not having the fastest airplane. You will learn a lot by
participating and competing with the other guys.
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
the fast one
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight
> --> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>
> You could do some very careful calculations, then try adding a much
> smaller weight in the far aft tailcone area somewhere. You wouldn't
> need remotely as much ballast as something in the baggage compartment
> - a few pounds would be pretty significant.
>
> Not something you would want to do casually. If remotely in doubt,
> you'd want to reweigh the plane afterwards and reverify the CG
> information.
>
> As you say, 50 pounds of ballast could easily offset the advantages
> of pushing the CG back. This would at least require far less than 50
> pounds.
>
> -Joe
>
> On May 30, 2006, at 4:35 PM, bdjones1965 wrote:
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "bdjones1965" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>>
>> Couple of points on this topic:
>>
>> 1. A friend said they used to (probably still do) add steel
>> weights to the tail of AT-6's that race in Reno for speed
>> improvements. Can't recall, but I believe they have minimum
>> weights and are probably working with that number but just shifting
>> the CG aft.
>>
>> 2. A few years back I started trying to quantify this situation
>> with adding weight aft. I never got a conclusive answer, but
>> wondered if the benefit of adding ballast to move the CG aft offset
>> the penalty of added overall weight.
>>
>> Example: I am flying (racing) with a near empty airplane. Would
>> the plane be faster with 50-lbs of ballast in the rear baggage
>> compartment than without the 50-lbs? Or faster with 50-lbs of
>> ballast and if I lost 20-lbs?? ;)
>>
>> Seriously, it sounds like there may be some conditions where the
>> added overall weight to move the CG aft may help.
>>
>> Bryan
>
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com>
I fly my -4 with a 40lb bag of salt in the baggage
compartment (sans passenger of course)...haven't
noticed the speed difference, but it does fly
better...I'll have to check that out.
Paul B esing
--- Mike Kraus <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Kraus"
> <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
>
> I see the same thing in my -4. Put about 100-120
> lbs in the back seat
> and gain about 10 kts. It is very noticeable. Next
> time you fly solo,
> trim out the plane and look at the level the
> elevator sits relative to
> the HS. Add a passenger and look again. In my
> plane with a 120lb
> passenger, the elevators will be almost level with
> the HS, but flying
> solo they are quite a bit different.
>
> -Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of DAVID REEL
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:48 AM
> To: rvlist
> Subject: RV-List: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by
> adding weight
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL"
> <dreel@cox.net>
>
> I've been exploring the CG range in flight testing
> of my RV8A and have
> found an unanticipated cruise speed effect. At 85.9
> inches, I was
> getting 155kias with 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 5,500 ft,
> and 42 degrees F
> outside. At 79.6 inches, I got 142kias with
> 2300rpm, 23 in mp, 4,500
> ft, and 64 degrees F outside. My whiz wheel gives
> true airspeeds of
> roughly 169kt and 154kt. Quite an improvement just
> by adding some
> weight in back. Yes, the fast flight was with a
> little bit higher
> weight!
>
> There's lots of discussion of speed improvements in
> the archives, but
> nothing related to CG location that I could find and
> certainly nothing
> so easy to get and of this magnitude. So, my
> question to everyone is
> have you had similar experience? Do you know
> anywhere this has been
> quantified or further detailed? After all, I'm just
> comparing two test
> flights here, but theoretically, I'd guess the
> decrease in drag due to
> decreased pitch stability requirements as the CG
> moves aft would explain
> the speed increase.
>
> Excited!
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 54
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|
| Subject: | Burnt out MAC indicator? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
One of the rectangluar LED's on my MAC pitch trim indicator seems to be
burnt out. Am I the first to have this happen? Guess the only fix is to
replace the whole thing? ($86!)
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: stiff brakes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Maybe you need to read his reply again...!
<snip>
Air in the line would not cause this as the compensating port allows
for air
or fluid to return immediately. Is also not likely to be gunk in the
caliper
as that would probably not get better after a few minutes. The same
would
also be true for the too tight pins that retain the floating calipers.
<snip>
This reply is not accurate as it solved our probelm! This is a problem I've dealt
with more than once even with hand lever handicap modified levers in RV's...
I'm done...
warmest regards,
Darrell
"do not archive"
"D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol"
Darrell,
I saw nothing in Wheeler's post that should cause this kind of nasty
reply. It was very good information about another possible cause for
this problem and did not attack anybody or their ideas. We've run enough
good people off this list with this kind of comment and I for one, would
like to see it stop. Say something constructive or keep it to yourself.
Dave B
Darrell Reiley wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley
>
>Did you read this Charles?
>
> According to Wheeler North we must be smoking crack. We never even fixed the
brakes on the airplanes we worked on, as bleeding the brakes or even straightening
up a caliper and brake line that was forcing a sideways bind could never
have caused the brakes to have an issue! I guess is was a miracle...
>
> Darrell
>
> "do not archive"
>
>
>
>
>Wheeler North wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North
>
>Most likely is the pedal rocker pivots are too stiff and the small
>compensating valve spring in the master cyl can't open, thereby pushing the
>pedal back that last bit. (These are NOT the pedal swing pivots which allow
>for rudder movement) After a bit they either bleed down, or the system cools
>and reduces fluid pressure.
>
>Check by getting the brakes to the stiff condition then pull back on the
>tops of the pedals to force them fully back and see if that loosens the
>brakes. (This also assumes the pedal rocker action has enough swing
>clearence to let the master cyls fully extend.)
>
>If this is the case the best fix is to loosen those pivots some as another
>spring is something that could break/jam/whatever at the wrong time.
>
>Air in the line would not cause this as the compensating port allows for air
>or fluid to return immediately. Is also not likely to be gunk in the caliper
>as that would probably not get better after a few minutes. The same would
>also be true for the too tight pins that retain the floating calipers.
>
>The one other option is the matco style parking brake valve could be not
>fully opening both poppets thereby acting like one way check valves, if one
>is installed. If the above test doesn't make it better remove the pants and
>get them stiff, then open the bleeder for a tad and see if they loosen. This
>will tell you if the P brake is holding the pressure on. (you could also try
>working the P-brake valve when they are stiff and see if that suddenly
>loosens them.)
>
>W
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Do Not Archive"
Darrell Reiley
RV7A "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Message 56
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| Subject: | How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Brick" <jebrick@comcast.net>
What are we to make of the speeds that Van gives for solo and gross weights?
About one mph slower at gross, tandem or side-by side.
jb
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: How to add 15kt to cruise speed by adding weight |
--> RV-List message posted by: LessDragProd@aol.com
Van's cruise performance testing is usually done at a 8,000' density
altitude using full throttle and 2500 RPM. (It helps to remove as many variables
as
possible when doing performance testing.)
I have used a 7,500' density altitude for my RV-3 performance testing. This
has been a station altitude of 5,500', at times. I have an RMI MicroEncoder
in my RV-3, so I can get a direct readout on density altitude (I believe the
outside air temperature is even corrected for compressibility effects).
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 05/30/2006 9:11:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jebrick@comcast.net writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Brick" <jebrick@comcast.net>
What are we to make of the speeds that Van gives for solo and gross weights?
About one mph slower at gross, tandem or side-by side.
jb
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