---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/12/06: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:10 AM - Re: That wasted Spark (G McNutt) 2. 05:44 AM - Re: FF Kit (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?=) 3. 06:11 AM - Re: DOUBLE FLARING (Charlie Kuss) 4. 06:55 AM - Re: IO 550 N (Rhonda Bewley) 5. 07:12 AM - FF Kit/Quality (John Furey) 6. 07:39 AM - Re: Vent from battery requested (Tim Bryan) 7. 07:59 AM - GPS antenna firewall quick connect (Ron Patterson) 8. 08:28 AM - Re: GPS antenna firewall quick connect (Dan Checkoway) 9. 08:31 AM - Re: That wasted Spark (Tim Bryan) 10. 08:37 AM - Re: GPS antenna firewall quick connect (Vanremog@aol.com) 11. 09:02 AM - Re: Tru Trak ADI Pilot II (Jekyll) 12. 09:13 AM - Re: That wasted Spark (Jim Cimino) 13. 10:02 AM - Stainless steel brackets (Doug Weiler) 14. 10:20 AM - Re: IO 550 N (John Neel) 15. 10:29 AM - Re: Stainless steel brackets (Jeff Orear) 16. 10:51 AM - Re: Stainless steel brackets (Ed Anderson) 17. 10:57 AM - Re: FF Kit (Terry Watson) 18. 11:17 AM - copper antenna tape (Frazier, Vincent A) 19. 11:34 AM - Fuel Injected - or Not (Valovich, Paul) 20. 12:19 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Dan Checkoway) 21. 12:22 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Ron Lee) 22. 12:56 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (James H Nelson) 23. 01:07 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (scott bilinski) 24. 01:07 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (scott bilinski) 25. 01:29 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Sam Buchanan) 26. 02:03 PM - Re: Oshkosh Traffic (macrafic) 27. 03:22 PM - Re: GPS antenna firewall quick connect (Charles Reiche) 28. 03:24 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Jim Sears) 29. 05:15 PM - Anywheremap weather (Dale Walter) 30. 05:15 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Tedd McHenry) 31. 05:29 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (RobHickman@aol.com) 32. 05:41 PM - Re: Anywheremap weather (John Fasching) 33. 05:54 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (james frierson) 34. 06:18 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Alex Peterson) 35. 07:13 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Joe Larson) 36. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh Traffic (Jeff Point) 37. 08:03 PM - Re: Vent from battery requested (Ed Holyoke) 38. 08:37 PM - Re: Fuel Injected - or Not (Sherman Butler) 39. 10:28 PM - Re: Re: Tru Trak ADI Pilot II (Stan Jones) 40. 10:28 PM - Re: GPS antenna firewall quick connect (Stan Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:54 AM PST US From: G McNutt Subject: Re: RV-List: That wasted Spark --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt Sorry Stan, you have two coils and each coil has two spark plug leads. When a coil is triggered a spark goes out each lead and one spark plug lights a fire and the other spark is wasted. Stan Jones wrote: > It would only be if the sensor for the electronic ignition was mounted > at the front of the crankshaft, > and was triggered each engine rotation would you get that wasted spark. > My E I is triggered by a Hall Effect sensor mounted on the accessory > case, that is geared > two to one with the crankshaft. > I will not get that Ryton sump destroying Wasted Spark will I. > Am I correct ? > Comments please. > Stan > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:03 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= Subject: RE: RV-List: FF Kit Thanks for the info as I myself also ordered a TMX-IO360 ' AL sump, PMags and Vans standard cow. As you did, I am going personal on all the electrical stuff; Mufflers ' also via Vetterman direct. As for gascolators, I am putting a couple of Andairs at the wing roots. Not sure about the cables and brackets ' what would you recommend? Oil cooler ' same here ' going SW from Pacific ' great people to work with ' good advice. It seems that after removing the above, all that is left is all of the little items which a first time builder is sure not to have on hand, each of which will take tons of time to get. Thanks, Michele ' RV8 Fuselage (France) _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Sent: dimanche 11 juin 2006 02:25 Subject: Re: RV-List: FF Kit Importance: High John, I bought the Mattituck TMX IO-360 w/AFP fuel injection plus two P-mags. My engine was built with the hollow crank in case I might later want to change to a CS prop, but I am going to install and fly with a Catto 3-blade FP. Like you, I also had to do some head scratching about the FWF kit and what I came up with was that the best match for my engine was to get the FWF item #FF-7A O-360 FP. However, I still made some changes of either straight deletions or exchanges as follows: I deleted the gascolator (don't need it with the AFP-FI). I deleted ALL the electrical harnesses and master relay and starter solenoid. (I'll get what I need elsewhere). I deleted the throttle and mixture cables and bracket (I'm using a throttle quadrant from DJM). I changed out the standard FWF 60a alternator for the new 60a alternator w/internal OV protection. I deleted the standard oil cooler and instead bought the Stewart Warner replacement from Pacific. I deleted the standard Vetterman exhaust and instead bought the same exhaust directly from Vetterman except with the mufflers. You can obviously see that most of those changes were as per my personal preference as opposed to changes mandated by my engine installation. For the most part, I think if you just delete the gascolator, you might be able to use all the rest. I am also using the Sam James Cowl and Plenum, so be aware that you need to ask Mattituck to get the special bracket from AFP that's made to fit with the Sam James Plenum. I hope that gets you in the right direction. Vern Wanzong RV7-A Houston, TX On 6/9/06, John Furey wrote: Larry, I am leaning towards the TMX O or IO-360 and would appreciate any input. Thanks John ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:24 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: DOUBLE FLARING --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Mick, I had considered doing EXACTLY what you propose. However, I found that the vise block on the automotive double flaring tool had serrations designed to prevent slippage of the steel automotive tubing. These serrations imprinted themselves onto the soft aluminum tubing. These creates stress risers, which I found unacceptable. I created a "favorite search" for the correct tool on EBay. After several months, I was able to purchase the tool for $137. Check with your A&P friends or your local EAA Chapter. They may be willing to loan or rent you the tool. Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "Mick Muller" > >Greetings Listers, I have been told that the safest way to treat >flares brake and fuel fittings is with a double flaring tool. I can >get my hands on a double flaring tool, but it is a 45degree fitting >not 37 degree. I was thinking that I could use the double flaring >tool to make the initial folded over flare, then my single 37degree >flaring tool to finish it off. Does anyone see a problem with this approach?? >Thanks, Mick > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 550 N From: "Rhonda Bewley" John: Is the engine damaged? How much are you asking for the engine core? Thank you. Rhonda ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Neel Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: RV-List: IO 550 N I have a IO 550 N out of a Cirrus SR22 605 TT NDH 3 Blade Scimitar propeller and single lever engine management system. Interest for RV 10's ? Price with or without core. JN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:53 AM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RV-List: FF Kit/Quality Thanks to all who have provided info on the two issues. They have been very helpful and reassuring. John Furey Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:50 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Vent from battery requested Hi Ed, I didn't see any recomendation in that article for venting, but interesti ng reading. My battery is the standard concord RG series battery. Van's do esn t show or suggest a vent in the pland or manual. Hopefully the issue won 't be pushed such that I need to install one. Thanks Tim -------Original Message------- From: Ed Holyoke Subject: RE: RV-List: Vent from battery requested What kind of battery are you going to use? If a flooded lead acid battery , then a sealed box with drain is a real good idea. If a recombinant gas battery, like the concord RG series or the Odyssey, you could hold it dow n with a strap and it would be fine. RG batteries don=92t outgas and don=92 t need vents. They also crank the engine over like a SOB. Read up here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: RV-List: Vent from battery requested Hello Listers, As I am nearing completion and eventual inspection of my -6 I had the DAR out to have a look under the panel and front area before I install the sticks and other injury items for laying in there. He suggested I instal l a vent from the battery box down out of the plane. He apparently had a bad experience with an overcharged battery when a charge system ran away. I have not heard of this before. Does anyone have any experience in this ? If this is a very rare situation, than it hardly seems necessary. What d o you think? Outside of this, he was happy with all my work and gave me lot s of pointers of little things to tidy up in the engine area. Tim RV-6 N616TB ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:09 AM PST US From: Ron Patterson Subject: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect Does anyone know how to properly make up a disconnect at the firewall for my GPS antenna? I have mounted the antenna for my Garmin 396 under the engine cowling. What I don't know is how to splice into the antenna wire and make up a proper firewall quick connect/disconnect that will enable me to take off the cowl without fishing the antenna wire through the firewall every time. Is it OK to splice the antenna wire? how? which connectors do I use? Appreciate your ideas. Ron N8ZD - just weeks now! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:41 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect Make a shelf on the firewall for the antenna? That way removing the cowl is independent of the antenna. )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Patterson To: rv-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:56 AM Subject: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect Does anyone know how to properly make up a disconnect at the firewall for my GPS antenna? I have mounted the antenna for my Garmin 396 under the engine cowling. What I don't know is how to splice into the antenna wire and make up a proper firewall quick connect/disconnect that will enable me to take off the cowl without fishing the antenna wire through the firewall every time. Is it OK to splice the antenna wire? how? which connectors do I use? Appreciate your ideas. Ron N8ZD - just weeks now! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:00 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: That wasted Spark When I turn the light switch off in my office, the electricity isn't bein g wasted because there is no load on it. Could this be true for this situation? No load, no spark -------Original Message------- From: G McNutt Subject: Re: RV-List: That wasted Spark --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt Sorry Stan, you have two coils and each coil has two spark plug leads. When a coil is triggered a spark goes out each lead and one spark plug lights a fire and the other spark is wasted. Stan Jones wrote: > It would only be if the sensor for the electronic ignition was mounted > at the front of the crankshaft, > and was triggered each engine rotation would you get that wasted spark. > My E I is triggered by a Hall Effect sensor mounted on the accessory > case, that is geared > two to one with the crankshaft. > I will not get that Ryton sump destroying Wasted Spark will I. > Am I correct ? > Comments please. > Stan > > > ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:07 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect In a message dated 6/12/2006 8:02:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, scc_ron@yahoo.com writes: Does anyone know how to properly make up a disconnect at the firewall for my GPS antenna? I have mounted the antenna for my Garmin 396 under the engine cowling. What I don't know is how to splice into the antenna wire and make up a proper firewall quick connect/disconnect that will enable me to take off the cowl without fishing the antenna wire through the firewall every time. Is it OK to splice the antenna wire? how? which connectors do I use? ========================================= IIRC mine's a TNC type. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 792hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:55 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Tru Trak ADI Pilot II From: "Jekyll" --> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" Fabian Lefler at Affordable Panels has good prices on TruTrak products, in fact, he has great prices on all products year round. (I have no connection to the company other than being a VERY satisfied customer) http://www.affordablepanels.com Jekyll Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40133#40133 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:33 AM PST US From: "Jim Cimino" Subject: Re: RV-List: That wasted Spark I am not familiar with the waste spark system you are talking about, but am familiar with the automotive system. If you have two plugs being fired by a single coil, then the system fires one plug positive and one negative creating a complete circuit. The coil fires the first plug positive the voltage goes to ground continues though the engine block, jumps from the negative electrode to the positive electrode on the second plug and continues back to the coil. This means that one plug is firing on the top of the compression stroke and the other on the exhaust stroke...the wasted spark. I have a simulator in my classroom that when slowed way down you can actually see the positive and negative firing. Jim Jim Cimino N7TL RV-8 S/N 80039 150+ Hours http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bryan To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:30 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: That wasted Spark When I turn the light switch off in my office, the electricity isn't being wasted because there is no load on it. Could this be true for this situation? No load, no spark -------Original Message------- From: G McNutt Date: 06/12/06 01:15:35 To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: That wasted Spark --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt Sorry Stan, you have two coils and each coil has two spark plug leads. When a coil is triggered a spark goes out each lead and one spark plug lights a fire and the other spark is wasted. Stan Jones wrote: > It would only be if the sensor for the electronic ignition was mounted > at the front of the crankshaft, > and was triggered each engine rotation would you get that wasted spark. > My E I is triggered by a Hall Effect sensor mounted on the accessory > case, that is geared > two to one with the crankshaft. > I will not get that Ryton sump destroying Wasted Spark will I. > Am I correct ? > Comments please. > Stan > > > > > > ========================= ============ he RV-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ========================= ============ sp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - nics.com ========================= ============ sp; - List Contribution Web Site - sp; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. //www.matronics.com/contribution ========================= ============ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:37 AM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: RV-List: Stainless steel brackets Greetings: Does anyone know who makes the stainless steel wheel pant brackets for RVs?? Thanks Doug Weiler N722DW ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:54 AM PST US From: "John Neel" Subject: Re: RV-List: IO 550 N Rhonda, There is no damage to the engine or propeller. The total time is 605hours and they are complete. I would like a IO 360 core or approximate value. Call with any questions. Regards John Neel Cell 435-632-2917 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rhonda Bewley To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:51 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: IO 550 N John: Is the engine damaged? How much are you asking for the engine core? Thank you. Rhonda ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Neel Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 6:02 PM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: IO 550 N I have a IO 550 N out of a Cirrus SR22 605 TT NDH 3 Blade Scimitar propeller and single lever engine management system. Interest for RV 10's ? Price with or without core. JN ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 6/9/2006 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:11 AM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stainless steel brackets Fairings Etc at www.fairings-etc.com Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Weiler To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: RV-List: Stainless steel brackets Greetings: Does anyone know who makes the stainless steel wheel pant brackets for RVs?? Thanks Doug Weiler N722DW ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:44 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stainless steel brackets Note these fairing are designed for Van's "Pressure Recovery" wheel pants. They are not suited for the older "slimmer" wheel pants of the RV-6A. I ordered a pair and tried to adapt them to my older wheel pants. They are well made and sturdy but I finally ended up making my own out of Stainless steel. It was just easier than trying to adapt these - but, perhaps I gave up to easy. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Orear To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 1:27 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Stainless steel brackets Fairings Etc at www.fairings-etc.com Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Weiler To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: RV-List: Stainless steel brackets Greetings: Does anyone know who makes the stainless steel wheel pant brackets for RVs?? Thanks Doug Weiler N722DW ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:10 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: FF Kit Aerosport Power installed the Airflow Performance fuel injection on a Superior IO-360-B1B (180 hp) engine for my RV-8A. I ordered the firewall forward kit from Vans. There were some duplications. I remember that the plate that attaches the filtered air box (F.A.B.) to the fuel meter box came from both AFP and Van=92s, but I had to make a custom one anyway to move the F.A.B. about 3/8=94 to one side to center it in the bottom cowl scoop. This is the part that several have experienced cracks with, so I built it out of heavier aluminum than the original. It=92s a simple flat oval, so it wasn=92t difficult to make. I have a couple of hoses left over that I didn=92t need, and had to order two more that I didn=92t get from either source. One is the 42=94 long =BC=94 firesleeved line that runs from the purge valve on the top of the engine back to the firewall. The other is the 3/8=94 firesleeved line with a 90 degree pipe bend on one end that runs from the firewall to the mechanical fuel pump. Mine will be 15=94 long. I ordered both from Airflow Performance last week and expect to get them today or tomorrow. I think the two hoses will cost just a little under $200. I did install an Andair gascolator in the left wing root, although I now don=92t think that was any improvement over the AFP fuel filter that I did not install. But all that bent tubing looks impressive. Terry RV-8A firewall forward almost done Seattle _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mich=E8le Delsol Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:42 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: FF Kit Thanks for the info as I myself also ordered a TMX-IO360 ' AL sump, PMags and Vans standard cow. As you did, I am going personal on all the electrical stuff; Mufflers ' also via Vetterman direct. As for gascolators, I am putting a couple of Andairs at the wing roots. Not sure about the cables and brackets ' what would you recommend? Oil cooler ' same here ' going SW from Pacific ' great people to work with ' good advice. It seems that after removing the above, all that is left is all of the little items which a first time builder is sure not to have on hand, each of which will take tons of time to get. Thanks, Michele ' RV8 Fuselage (France) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:15 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: copper antenna tape From: "Frazier, Vincent A" Any of you guys need some copper tape to make your hidden antenna?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8292565445&rd=1&ss pag ename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1 Vince ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:08 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not From: "Valovich, Paul" Indecision is the key to flexibility. One of the great things about building an airplane: it's ok to change one's mind. I'm about at the engine ordering stage for my RV-8A QB. I have done a lot of research and thought I had made a rationale, educated decision - a new 180 hp horizontal induction fuel injected engine from Aerosport. However, a buddy casually posed the question: "Why fuel injection?" and I realized that other than the fact it seemed newer and sexier, I had no compelling answer as to why fuel injection might be worth the additional cost and pump installation complexity. I live in the Mojave (Ridgecrest, CA); carb icing isn't a compelling driver. So a question for all you old hands out there - Is fuel injection really worth the extra several thousand bucks? Why or why not? Also, does anyone know of any document that shows an in depth analysis of why or why not? Paul Valovich Booger -8A QB ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:19 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not Run LOP and fuel injection can "pay for itself" in less time than TBO. Beyond that, the savings are pure gravy. Gas isn't getting any cheaper, and the cost savings by burning 1-2 fewer gph is increasing on a daily basis. That is, the savings increase as gas prices increase. To those who think the 200hp IO-360-A1B6 angle valve engine "should" burn more fuel than smaller, less powered engines...I burn about 7.5 gph at wide open throttle doing 170 KTAS. Injected...wouldn't have it any other way. You asked for opinions. 8^) )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (935 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Valovich, Paul To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:32 AM Subject: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not Indecision is the key to flexibility. One of the great things about building an airplane: it's ok to change one's mind. I'm about at the engine ordering stage for my RV-8A QB. I have done a lot of research and thought I had made a rationale, educated decision - a new 180 hp horizontal induction fuel injected engine from Aerosport. However, a buddy casually posed the question: "Why fuel injection?" and I realized that other than the fact it seemed newer and sexier, I had no compelling answer as to why fuel injection might be worth the additional cost and pump installation complexity. I live in the Mojave (Ridgecrest, CA); carb icing isn't a compelling driver. So a question for all you old hands out there - Is fuel injection really worth the extra several thousand bucks? Why or why not? Also, does anyone know of any document that shows an in depth analysis of why or why not? Paul Valovich Booger -8A QB ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:19 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not >So a question for all you old hands out there ' Is fuel injection really >worth the extra several thousand bucks? Why or why not? > >Also, does anyone know of any document that shows an in depth analysis of >why or why not? One benefit of Fuel Injection (FI) is the ability to run lean of peak. That should save fuel but I cannot show that it is worth the additional cost. A reported drawback of FI is hard starting under hot conditions (supposedly after landing then starting a short time later). You did go with 180 HP which is good. Whether it makes sense to go for more horsepower is another factor I cannot quantify. However, given that I could get more horsepower for the same cost of FI personally I would go for the horsepower. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Paul, The main reason is fuel economy. You can run lean of peak with fuel injection and the best you can run is about 50 deg rick of peak with a carburetor. Fuel distribution with fuel injection can be almost dead on where as carburetors can not do that. With fuel costs the way they are and not going to get any better, FI was the way I chose. Plus if you travel to places where carb heat is necessary - so comes the problems associated with it. Just my humble opinion. Jim Nelson IO-360 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:05 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not For me: A smoother running engine and balanced fuel flow saving an immediate .5 GPH for the life of the engine. Now, all EGT's peak at the same time. This is a little work but easy to do. You can also able to run LOP. I have flown side by side with a carbureated RV-7 (I have an 8a injected) and used 2.0 GPH less than they did on a 3.5 hr flight one way. Oh, I also have dual EI so that helped. So I used 14 gallons less!!!!!! Also read ALL of John Deakins articles on running LOP. Might have to read them 3 times before it all sinks in but worth while in order to REALLY understand what goes on in a engine. So go here and sort through and read all articles "Pelicans Pearch" http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/list.html "Valovich, Paul" wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Indecision is the key to flexibility. One of the great things about building an airplane: its ok to change ones mind. Im about at the engine ordering stage for my RV-8A QB. I have done a lot of research and thought I had made a rationale, educated decision a new 180 hp horizontal induction fuel injected engine from Aerosport. However, a buddy casually posed the question: Why fuel injection? and I realized that other than the fact it seemed newer and sexier, I had no compelling answer as to why fuel injection might be worth the additional cost and pump installation complexity. I live in the Mojave (Ridgecrest, CA); carb icing isnt a compelling driver. So a question for all you old hands out there Is fuel injection really worth the extra several thousand bucks? Why or why not? Also, does anyone know of any document that shows an in depth analysis of why or why not? Paul Valovich Booger -8A QB __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:56 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not This is a better link to Deakins articles. Cut and paste? http://www.avweb.com/cgi-bin/texis/scripts/avweb-search/search.html?publication=avflash&publication=bizav&publication=avweb&query=john+deakin&Go.x=11&Go.y=6 Scott in San Diego "Valovich, Paul" wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Indecision is the key to flexibility. One of the great things about building an airplane: its ok to change ones mind. Im about at the engine ordering stage for my RV-8A QB. I have done a lot of research and thought I had made a rationale, educated decision a new 180 hp horizontal induction fuel injected engine from Aerosport. However, a buddy casually posed the question: Why fuel injection? and I realized that other than the fact it seemed newer and sexier, I had no compelling answer as to why fuel injection might be worth the additional cost and pump installation complexity. I live in the Mojave (Ridgecrest, CA); carb icing isnt a compelling driver. So a question for all you old hands out there Is fuel injection really worth the extra several thousand bucks? Why or why not? Also, does anyone know of any document that shows an in depth analysis of why or why not? Paul Valovich Booger -8A QB __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:42 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Valovich, Paul wrote: > Indecision is the key to flexibility. One of the great things about > building an airplane: its ok to change ones mind. > > > > Im about at the engine ordering stage for my RV-8A QB. I have done a > lot of research and thought I had made a rationale, educated decision > a new 180 hp horizontal induction fuel injected engine from Aerosport. > However, a buddy casually posed the question: Why fuel injection? and > I realized that other than the fact it seemed newer and sexier, I had no > compelling answer as to why fuel injection might be worth the additional > cost and pump installation complexity. Your friend is a very perceptive fellow! After nine years of watching, building, maintaining, inspecting, and flying RV's, it has been my observation that those pilots with fuel injection spend more time and money getting their planes to operate the way they want them to than the carbed pilots. I have yet to hear one of them volunteer how much money they are saving on fuel. The carburator guys just bolt on the engine and go flying. :-) I'm not implying one system is better than the other, just offering my observations. Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 748 hrs) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:54 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Oshkosh Traffic From: "macrafic" --> RV-List message posted by: "macrafic" Saturday is actually 2 days before Oshkosh starts (starts on Monday). I live only 1.5 hours flight from Oshkosh and fly in at this time every year. Traffic is light, but picks up late morning/early afternoon. As long as you read the NOTAM, and make a cheat sheet for you to follow (frequencies, patterns, etc.), you should be OK. Also, ATC has posted pictures on the AirVenture web site that shows you just what you will see from the air and what landmarks to look for. I've flown in alone without any problem, but a right seater with you surely lessens the load. Can't comment on your choice or parking, since I don't (yet) have a completed homebuilt and always park in the North 40. However, I DO walk around on Saturday and there seems to be PLENTY of space in every parking sector. Maybe somebody else can comment on the parking situation from personal experience. Good luck! I LOVE flying into Oshkosh. You get a real sense of accomplishment, and a real appreciation for the controllers and all the rest of the Oshkosh ground crews. The only thing missing is the red carpet to step on when you exit your aircraft! But, there ARE red-carpet people that will greet you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40215#40215 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:17 PM PST US From: Charles Reiche Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect The "big puck" of the 396 antenna is like a usb cable and would be tricky to mount out there, personally I wouldnt mount any gps antennas inside the engine cowling. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Patterson To: rv-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:56 AM Subject: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect Does anyone know how to properly make up a disconnect at the firewall for my GPS antenna? I have mounted the antenna for my Garmin 396 under the engine cowling. What I don't know is how to splice into the antenna wire and make up a proper firewall quick connect/disconnect that will enable me to take off the cowl without fishing the antenna wire through the firewall every time. Is it OK to splice the antenna wire? how? which connectors do I use? Appreciate your ideas. Ron N8ZD - just weeks now! ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:31 PM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" > Your friend is a very perceptive fellow! > > After nine years of watching, building, maintaining, inspecting, and > flying RV's, it has been my observation that those pilots with fuel > injection spend more time and money getting their planes to operate > the > way they want them to than the carbed pilots. I have yet to hear > one of > them volunteer how much money they are saving on fuel. > > The carburator guys just bolt on the engine and go flying. :-) > > I'm not implying one system is better than the other, just offering my > > observations. > I tend to echo Sam's observations. If a reason for justifying the cost of fuel injection is the fuel savings one will have, one is missing a good deal. If one really wants to save money on fuel costs, auto gas has a much higher savings rate than maybe a .5 gallon savings per hour of 100LL. At 8gph of fuel, that equates to about $2 per hour savings on 100LL. Local mogas prices allow me about $10.50 savings with the same 8 gallons. In 2000 hours of flying, that could equate to $21K in savings. Whoah! That would go a long way toward the price on another engine, if one invests the savings. Of course, one who doesn't favor using mogas might see the fuel injection system as the better approach; but, taking the savings on the carby and fuel to the bank works well for my wallet. I just wonder which system has more problems. It seems I see more folks having fuel injection systems worked on than I do with carbys. That's not to say that they have more problems. It's just that I've observed more fuel injection systems being worked on as I've visited the local FBO's shop. If I'm right, maybe the predicted savings using a fuel injected engine would be eaten up by the costs of maintaining it? Just a thought. I guess I like the simplicity of the carb and will stick with that for myself. Each of us has his own ways to justify the system used. Pick the one that works best for you. Jim Sears in KY EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:20 PM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RV-List: Anywheremap weather Good evening, How do I turn off the Echo Tops feature on the laptop version (XP) of Anywheremap weather? It covers up the terrain features. Also would love to connect to XM box via bluetooth, but it seems rather tricky for the Sony VGN-TX690P laptop, so I am using the USB cord for now. Thanks, Dale Walter RV6a, day 5 of WX from XM do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:20 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry An even better URL for Pelican's Perch: http://tinyurl.com/lej9v --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:22 PM PST US From: RobHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not My RV-4 has an Aerosport Power IO-360B1B and it has worked perfectly for the last 400+ hours. The plane starts very easy when it is cold and has not been a problem when it is hot. I have never run a battery down trying to get it to start. A good friend has an O-320 from Powersport with a carb and no primer in his RV-6a. It is a total pain to start when it is cold. He has run the battery down a number of times trying to get it to start. Sam Buchanan wrote: The carburator guys just bolt on the engine and go flying. :-) you forgot... After they install and connect a heat muff for carb heat, carb heat control cable, primer hoses, primer pump, carb temp sensor, carb temp sensor wiring, ..... The reason I chose fuel injection: 1. No carb heat 2. I had been in an RV and it would sputter when we were down side up. 3. I had been told that Fuel Injection would tolerate water in the fuel better. Rob Hickman N401RH RV-4 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:59 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: Re: RV-List: Anywheremap weather Dale, try Control Vision forums web site for the best answers re any AWM probelm. FWIF John ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale Walter To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: RV-List: Anywheremap weather Good evening, How do I turn off the Echo Tops feature on the laptop version (XP) of Anywheremap weather? It covers up the terrain features. Also would love to connect to XM box via bluetooth, but it seems rather tricky for the Sony VGN-TX690P laptop, so I am using the USB cord for now. Thanks, Dale Walter RV6a, day 5 of WX from XM do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:57 PM PST US From: "james frierson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "james frierson" Seems like with the higher fuel pressure one could run Mogas without the vapor lock problem thus saving more $$$$. I have heard of hot start problems with FI but I have a carb and have no problems starting hot or cold. I would like to use Mogas but am afraid of vapor lock so I stick with 100LL. Scott >So a question for all you old hands out there - Is fuel injection really >worth the extra several thousand bucks? Why or why not? > > >Also, does anyone know of any document that shows an in depth analysis >of why or why not? > >Paul Valovich > >Booger > >-8A QB > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:23 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > Your friend is a very perceptive fellow! > > After nine years of watching, building, maintaining, inspecting, and > flying RV's, it has been my observation that those pilots with fuel > injection spend more time and money getting their planes to > operate the > way they want them to than the carbed pilots. I have yet to > hear one of > them volunteer how much money they are saving on fuel. > > The carburator guys just bolt on the engine and go flying. :-) > > I'm not implying one system is better than the other, just > offering my > observations. > > Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 748 hrs) Well, clearly there will be disagreements on this thread. I have no clue about the actual percentage of users which have trouble with carbs vs FI, but I do know that I burn less fuel with my Airflow Performance FI than most carb equipped planes do. A noticable amount less. I have flown many, many hours side by side with other RV's, on long cross country flights, and at cruises in the 155 - 160 knot TAS range, where I burn between 1 and 2 gallons per hour less (this is at MAP's of about 22", 2300 rpm, relatively low percent power, maybe 58 to 60%). How many of you cruise with fuel flows of 7.1 to 7.3 gph, at 155 to 160 ktas? Most carbs cannot be run, even with electronic ignition (a big factor), in the LOP region. I do not have much experience with my plane in the 75% power regime, but the differences would be expected to be even greater there, since keeping the engine out of the "red zone" (higher cht's, among other nasty combustion effects) is more important there, and tends to spread the LOP/ROP fuel flows even more. Even at 1 gph savings, it equates to something like $3000 worth of fuel at today's prices that I've saved up to now in 759 hours of flying my RV. I would welcome flying side by side with anyone wanting hard data, particularly where so many variables are involved. For those building and trying to decide, I simply have offered another viewpoint. Alex Peterson RV6-A N66AP 759 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:36 PM PST US From: Joe Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson But Alex, you also have a very well-crafted airplane. I wonder if some of your gas savings is because you have a lower drag airplane than some of the folks you compare against. Everything adds up. I have no doubt some of the savings is from the FI. But I bet some of it's coming from other aspects of your airplane. -Joe do not archive On Jun 12, 2006, at 8:15 PM, Alex Peterson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > Well, clearly there will be disagreements on this thread. I have > no clue > about the actual percentage of users which have trouble with carbs > vs FI, > but I do know that I burn less fuel with my Airflow Performance FI > than most > carb equipped planes do. A noticable amount less. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:35 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Oshkosh Traffic --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Maybe somebody else can comment on the parking situation from personal experience. You'll have no trouble getting a parking spot in RV land on Saturday morning. Parking doesn't really get tight until about late Monday into Tuesday. By Wednesday people begin leaving and spots open up. Monday through Wednesday are the best days for RV-looking. With that said, we are getting the same amount of space as last year, to park what will undoubtably be more RVs than last year. We'll likely end up having to tail planes into rows in order to fit them in, so nose-gear guys, bring your tow bars. Jeff ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:47 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Vent from battery requested Howdy Tim, Our plane has been running the Concord RG 25 that fits the standard battery box for 700 plus hours. There's no vent for the box and no need for one. You can mount the battery on it's side if you want and it won't leak. Your DAR is thinking about the old style battery with vent/filler caps that you had to open up every so often to check the level of the electrolyte. Our Cessna had one of those and a vented box with a tube exiting the bottom of the cowl. It was corroded inside from the battery venting itself. Had to clean it up with baking soda and repaint pretty much every year. Not going back to that noise! Educate your DAR as to the newer technology. Concord still makes the old style flooded battery and the newer RG one. Go to Concord battery's website or Hawker's (the manufacturer of the Odyssey) for more info. Panasonic and others also make suitable RG batteries. Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:37 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Vent from battery requested Hi Ed, I didn't see any recomendation in that article for venting, but interesting reading. My battery is the standard concord RG series battery. Van's doesn't show or suggest a vent in the pland or manual. Hopefully the issue won't be pushed such that I need to install one. Thanks Tim -------Original Message------- From: Ed Holyoke Subject: RE: RV-List: Vent from battery requested What kind of battery are you going to use? If a flooded lead acid battery, then a sealed box with drain is a real good idea. If a recombinant gas battery, like the concord RG series or the Odyssey, you could hold it down with a strap and it would be fine. RG batteries don't outgas and don't need vents. They also crank the engine over like a SOB. Read up here: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/rg_bat.html Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: RV-List: Vent from battery requested Hello Listers, As I am nearing completion and eventual inspection of my -6 I had the DAR out to have a look under the panel and front area before I install the sticks and other injury items for laying in there. He suggested I install a vent from the battery box down out of the plane. He apparently had a bad experience with an overcharged battery when a charge system ran away. I have not heard of this before. Does anyone have any experience in this? If this is a very rare situation, than it hardly seems necessary. What do you think? Outside of this, he was happy with all my work and gave me lots of pointers of little things to tidy up in the engine area. Tim RV-6 N616TB ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:00 PM PST US From: Sherman Butler Subject: RE: RV-List: Fuel Injected - or Not Is it self selecting? Perhaps people who want to experiment with FI chose FI. That is why I am planning on FI. Do Not archive After nine years of watching, building, maintaining, inspecting, and flying RV's, it has been my observation that those pilots with fuel injection spend more time and money getting their planes to operate the way they want them to than the carbed pilots. Sherman Butler RV-7a Wings Idaho Falls __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:35 PM PST US From: "Stan Jones" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Tru Trak ADI Pilot II I can second that. He really goes out of his way to ensure things are OK. I am another satisfied customer. Stan -------Original Message------- From: Jekyll Subject: RV-List: Re: Tru Trak ADI Pilot II --> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" Fabian Lefler at Affordable Panels has good prices on TruTrak products, i n fact, he has great prices on all products year round. (I have no connecti on to the company other than being a VERY satisfied customer) http://www.affordablepanels.com Jekyll Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=40133#40133 ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:35 PM PST US From: "Stan Jones" Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect You can get BNC connecters that go through a bulkhead. I have some. Stan -------Original Message------- From: Ron Patterson Subject: RV-List: GPS antenna firewall quick connect Does anyone know how to properly make up a disconnect at the firewall for my GPS antenna? I have mounted the antenna for my Garmin 396 under the engine cowling. Wh at I don't know is how to splice into the antenna wire and make up a proper firewall quick connect/disconnect that will enable me to take off the cow l without fishing the antenna wire through the firewall every time. Is it OK to splice the antenna wire? how? which connectors do I use? Appreciate your ideas. Ron N8ZD - just weeks now!