Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: More on fuel breather problems ... (Steve Sampson)
2. 06:43 AM - Re: N710RV First Flight (Charles Rowbotham)
3. 07:02 AM - Re:Accident photos (glen matejcek)
4. 07:08 AM - Re: Accident photos (kitfoxmike)
5. 07:22 AM - Re: Misl bolts (Darrell Reiley)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Mark Sletten)
7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Ron Lee)
8. 08:10 AM - lower cowl heat shield picture? (Puckett, Gregory [DENTK])
9. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Richard Dudley)
10. 08:41 AM - Re: lower cowl heat shield picture? (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
11. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
12. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Kevin Horton)
13. 09:51 AM - Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Dave Johnson)
14. 09:52 AM - Re: lower cowl heat shield picture? (Randy Lervold)
15. 09:55 AM - Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Don/Marcia Piermattei)
16. 10:08 AM - Re: Accident photos (kitfoxmike)
17. 10:11 AM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Cory Emberson)
18. 10:12 AM - Landin' Gear (cecilth@juno.com)
19. 10:19 AM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Dale Ensing)
20. 10:34 AM - Re: Misl bolts (Sportypilot)
21. 10:36 AM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Cory Emberson)
22. 10:50 AM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (RV6 Flyer)
23. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Joseph Larson)
24. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Konrad L. Werner)
25. 11:43 AM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Jerry Grimmonpre)
26. 11:45 AM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Jerry Grimmonpre)
27. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Jeff Point)
28. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Chuck Jensen)
29. 12:36 PM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Ron Lee)
30. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Joseph Larson)
31. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
32. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: Accident photos (Ron Lee)
33. 02:01 PM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (LarryRobertHelming)
34. 03:00 PM - oshkosh accident (linn Walters)
35. 03:36 PM - moRe: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox (linn Walters)
36. 03:51 PM - Re: oshkosh accident (JT Helms)
37. 04:01 PM - Re: oshkosh accident (LarryRobertHelming)
38. 04:54 PM - Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass (Dale Ensing)
39. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (gordon or marge)
40. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Kevin Horton)
41. 05:35 PM - Reno tickets for sale (Sherman Butler)
42. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Jeff Point)
43. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Leaning on ground? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
44. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Kevin Horton)
45. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Leaning on ground? (linn Walters)
46. 08:38 PM - Re: doors off? (Evan and Megan Johnson)
47. 09:23 PM - Re: doors off? (Bob Perkinson)
48. 09:30 PM - Re: doors off? (MLWynn@aol.com)
49. 09:30 PM - Re: SL-30 and GTX-327 mounting trays (sarg314)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: More on fuel breather problems ... |
Nic - I agree with Kyle. From what you describe my bet is the AN fitting
where the vent line joins to the tank plate is not tight. I have heard of
people getting the plate off without removing the tank or wing. That would
give you an inch or so of access ....but it sounds like a bitch of a job.
If it is any help you can see how it *should* be arranged inside if you go
here <http://gikonwings.blogspot.com/>. The final of 3 pictures.
Good luck, Steve.
On 06/08/06, Kyle Boatright <kboatright1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
>
> A guess is that something has come loose where the vent line attaches to
> an
> AN fitting inside the tank rib at the wing root. In an RV-6 tank, you can
> access that fitting by removing the fuel tank access/sender plate at the
> root end of the fuel tank.
>
> Once you have access to the fitting, you can tighten it and maybe apply a
> little proseal where it goes through the tank rib.
>
> KB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 12:40 PM
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Nic" <Nic@skyhi.flyer.co.uk>
> >
> > Many thanks for the suggestions on the fuel breather problems on my RH
> > tank.
> > here are the latest observations :
> >
> > If I blow through the breather from the inlet under the fuselage, then
> air
> > reaches the far end of the breather in the upper corner of the tank.
> >
> > If I fill the tank (below the tank breather level ) in hot weather fuel
> > will
> > start to vent underneath the aircraft and come out in a constant stream
> > that
> > appears as though it is siphoning, this will continue until a lot of
> fuel
> > has been lost and the tank has lost a considerable amount of fuel.
> >
> > My concussion is that there maybe a leak in the breather on the inside
> of
> > the tank. Fuel leaks into the breather, and as the air in the tank
> expands
> > it forces the fuel out along the breather. Once pressurised the fuel
> > starts
> > to flow, and then siphons until equilibrium is reached.
> >
> > Problem - how do I fix the leak without removing the tank and messing up
> > an
> > expensive paint job ? or am I barking up the wrong tree ? At nearly
> > $10/gal I would really like to fix this problem. Any suggestions
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Rgds, Nic
> >
> > PS - THIS IS A QB READY-BUILT VANS TANK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | N710RV First Flight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham@hotmail.com>
Russ,
CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE !!
Chuck & Dave Rowbotham
RV-8A
>From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111@cox.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: N710RV First Flight
>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:42:25 -0500
>
>First flight went off without a hitch today. Felt great. Plans are to fly
>every day for the next two weeks, either before or after work on the real
>job.
>
>Russ Daves
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE:Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>...I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point
that we
>can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of those who share our
>interest in flying little airplanes....
Very well put, Terry. I couldn't agree more. To paraphrase George
Santayana, "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
I see nothing offensive on these pics, I now understand how difficult it was for
the taxi of this big avenger, I personally have learned that if I get in a situation
and am told to taxi in front of such an aircraft I will use my pilot
in command option and stay put until the big worly plan passes me. My simpathy
to both the pilot in the avenger and those in the RV6 and families.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
rv7 wingkit
reserved 287RV
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53045#53045
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Hi Danny,
Very odd size indeed... you may need to get longer
bolts and cut them off. Easy enough to do.
Darrell
--- Sportypilot <sportypilot@stx.rr.com> wrote:
> I am looking for an 10-24 1/2 bolts with holes on
> the heads for the lycoming 0320 seal retainer so I
> can
> mount my prop and spacer.. anyone have a good
> location to get these, I have looked everywhere
> locally..
> #10 24threads per inch 1/2 long.. any ideas ? I need
> 4 of them..
>
>
> Danny..
__________________________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa@hometel.com>
Beware, this is an op ed post,
There is no question that this was a tragedy almost beyond comprehension. I
feel badly for the victim, the victim's family, anyone who witnessed it
personally and, lastly, the TBM's PIC. That being said, I think it's
important that we, as pilots, don't let this tragedy lead us somewhere -
emotionally, intellectually or literally - someplace we don't want to go; we
must keep our eyes on the ball. There is no question that wing walkers
and/or ground spotters could have (most likely would have) prevented this
accident. The bottom line in this case is there were none.
I know I'm going to hear from those of you accusing me of armchair
quarterbacking. That's as may be, but I felt compelled to comment in light
of Linn's (maybe unintentional - see below) hints that someone other than
the PIC might be responsible for the safe movement of his or her aircraft on
the ground. Even *WITH* ground spotters, taxiing safely is still the
responsibility of the PIC. To even hint, however faintly, otherwise is to
open Pandora's Box.
Intimating that someone other than the PIC is responsible is the 1st step to
in the process wherein someone other then the PIC decides how to safely
operate our aircraft.
Taxiing an aircraft that dwarfs most others at the show, with limited
visibility outside the aircraft, and knowing he was going to mix with many
different kinds of aircraft on a crowded, busy taxiway *WITH NO SPOTTERS*
should have spurred the Avenger pilot to take appropriate precautions - he
was the PIC.
>From the victim's point of view, and in light of the number of pilots who've
made who-woulda-thunk-it comments, it's a safe bet that neither he, nor many
others of us have considered this kind of accident before now. I'd say the
majority of us will definitely think about it, and take appropriate
precautions (a mirror, stopping on a slant to allow aft visibility, etc.,
let's keep those comments coming), should we find ourselves in a similar
situation.
Additionally, I believe adamantly it is in no way the responsibility of the
EAA, or any other AirVenture organizer, to provide ground crews to prevent
taxi accidents. Volunteers help direct the flow of traffic and, as a side
benefit, might be in a position to *HELP* prevent ground accidents. Both of
these aircraft were on an established taxiway and knew where they were
going, therefore, no ground crews were provided. And that's as it should be
unless the PIC decides otherwise.
Further, *ANYONE* can volunteer to work at OSH during AirVenture - there is
no way to determine qualifications or expertise. If you *MUST* have a ground
crew to taxi safely, then the only way to be sure the crew is competent is
to bring your own.
IMHO, by providing safety observers specifically to "help" pilots safely
taxi their aircraft, the EAA and AirVenture would become just as responsible
as the PIC. That kind of liability coupled with a tragic event such as this
can effectively kill large events like AirVenture. I wouldn't accept it -
nor, do I think, will they. If we pilots demand that the EAA and AirVenture
organizers take steps to *HELP* us avoid future accidents of this type, we
shouldn't be surprised at what we get - like scheduled departure times by
type.
Mark Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Linn Walters said:
I read the NTSB report and understood exactly how it happened. The addition
of volunteers with paddles to regulate the flow on the taxiway could have
prevented this accident. It may be as simple as a golf cart on the grass to
aid those pilots with forward visibility problems .... and as I said, it
doesn't reside only with the warbirds ..... would go a long way to prevent a
reoccurrence. The only other solution would be to set up departure times by
type and I'm sure nobody wants that. What saddens me me about this accident
is that it truly was preventable ..... like most accidents are.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point that we
>can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of those who share our
>interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about Scott Crossfield's
>accident because that might not show the respect he deserves. We shouldn't
>look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6 chopped up by a prop because it might
>offend someone's sensibilities?
I had never heard of Crossfield but my initial thought was that he screwed up
royally. That opinion has only been reinforced by obtaining additional info
about the pilot error leading to death event. I learned nothing from that
pilot
error event since I already know that flying into severe thunderstorms is
stupid.
The Oshkosh Avenger/RV6 incident is not one that I had ever considered so
I did learn from it. The pictures were not gruesome but were very
informative. I
have not been in a similar taxiing situation but if I ever am I will make
appropriate
actions to NOT be in front of such a plane.
I often hear after aviation fatalities that we can all learn from
it. Personally in recent
years I don't recall any that I learned from except for this taxiing
death. There may
have been others that I don't recall. Fact is that pilots have always done
stupid
things that result in fatalities. I suspect that they always will and I
see no way to
dramatically reduce those pilot error fatalities.
It would be great if the RV community could do something to reduce fatal
pilot errors.
Perhaps some sort of web-based training that discusses the major causes of
deaths
from pilot errors. If that training resulted in a reduction in insurance
rates I would do
it every year. Ideally it would mean fewer RV pilot deaths.
And it would include photos.
Ron Lee
Message 8
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| Subject: | lower cowl heat shield picture? |
g'day all,
I'm getting ready to install some of the Van's stick-on heat shield
material to my lower cowl and would love to see a picture of where other
have placed this stuff and found it successful at preventing
burning/blistering.
My install is an angle valve I0360-A3B6D with Van's smooth bottom s-type
cowl and Vetterman exhaust.
Thanks,
Greg Puckett
RV-8
N881GP
(first engine start and taxi yesterday)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
Well said, Terry.
I would make the same request should I end up an aviation accident
statistic. The taxi accident situation applies to all of us and we
should learn from it.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
Terry Watson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
>This is bit of a rant and you may have heard it from me before, so of course
>delete if you want. Strong disagreement would be appropriate if you think
>I'm off base.:
>
>...........
>
>I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point that we
>can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of those who share our
>interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about Scott Crossfield's
>accident because that might not show the respect he deserves. We shouldn't
>look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6 chopped up by a prop because it might
>offend someone's sensibilities?
>
>None of us get out of this life alive and it stands to reason and past
>experience that some of us are going to take our RV's with us. So again and
>again, we are going to face the choice of trying to learn from a tragic
>event, or to avert our eyes and avoid question or comment lest we offend the
>dead, injured, their survivors, family, friends, or those who would have
>been friends had they had a chance to know them. If you have been on this
>list for very long you have likely lost good friends and friends you hadn't
>actually met face to face yet.
>
>So here's MY request: If I screw up, or am the victim of someone else's
>screw-up, or if my tail falls off because I forgot to bolt it on properly or
>if I land long on a short runway or short of a long runway or if I scud run
>myself into a mountain, or run out of gas crossing Puget Sound, please feel
>free to postulate, speculate, blame, ridicule or whatever it takes to learn
>enough from my misfortune, bad judgment or stupidity to prevent some other
>soul from doing what lead to my demise. If I survive my misadventure I will
>most likely want to set the record straight or paint myself in a more heroic
>light, but if I don't, you will be on your own to sort it out.
>
>Make the best of it.
>
>What do you think the military's accident rate would be like if the S.O.P.
>after an accident was for everyone to stick their head in the sand and
>pretend it didn't happen?
>
>My apologies in advance if anyone feels flamed by this. I do not want to
>offend, just convince you that the more we know the safer we are. They put a
>sheet over dead bodies out of respect of the dead and the sensibilities of
>the living. That, in my mind, is the appropriate amount of censorship.
>
>Terry
>RV-8A finishing
>Seattle
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: lower cowl heat shield picture? |
In a message dated 8/7/2006 11:14:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Greg.Puckett@united.com writes:
g'day all,
I'm getting ready to install some of the Van's stick-on heat shield material
to my lower cowl and would love to see a picture of where other have placed
this stuff and found it successful at preventing burning/blistering.
My install is an angle valve I0360-A3B6D with Van's smooth bottom s-type
cowl and Vetterman exhaust.
Thanks,
Greg Puckett
RV-8
N881GP
(first engine start and taxi yesterday)
Greg,
I don't have pictures, but here's what I did. First be sure you have
painted the inside of the cowl with thinned epoxy. Then just put the foil down
in
large areas if the area is pretty flat and in smaller areas where it has
curvature. In other words, it takes several separate pieces. I would say if
you
cover all areas that are within 6 inches of the exhaust system, you will
have no problem. It isn't very hard to do, actually.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 200HP
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
I agree whole heartedly, There is a reason that the Military preaches
lessons learned, and any family that has lost someone, would certainly
want others to avoid the tragedy by learning the lesson from another's
mistake.
Keep reviewing the lessons learned from each and every incident and we
will break the chain, and prevent it from happening again.
Dan
40269 (N289DT)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 2:19 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Accident photos
--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
This is bit of a rant and you may have heard it from me before, so of
course
delete if you want. Strong disagreement would be appropriate if you
think
I'm off base.:
...........
I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point
that we
can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of those who share our
interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about Scott
Crossfield's
accident because that might not show the respect he deserves. We
shouldn't
look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6 chopped up by a prop because it
might
offend someone's sensibilities?
None of us get out of this life alive and it stands to reason and past
experience that some of us are going to take our RV's with us. So again
and
again, we are going to face the choice of trying to learn from a tragic
event, or to avert our eyes and avoid question or comment lest we offend
the
dead, injured, their survivors, family, friends, or those who would have
been friends had they had a chance to know them. If you have been on
this
list for very long you have likely lost good friends and friends you
hadn't
actually met face to face yet.
So here's MY request: If I screw up, or am the victim of someone else's
screw-up, or if my tail falls off because I forgot to bolt it on
properly or
if I land long on a short runway or short of a long runway or if I scud
run
myself into a mountain, or run out of gas crossing Puget Sound, please
feel
free to postulate, speculate, blame, ridicule or whatever it takes to
learn
enough from my misfortune, bad judgment or stupidity to prevent some
other
soul from doing what lead to my demise. If I survive my misadventure I
will
most likely want to set the record straight or paint myself in a more
heroic
light, but if I don't, you will be on your own to sort it out.
Make the best of it.
What do you think the military's accident rate would be like if the
S.O.P.
after an accident was for everyone to stick their head in the sand and
pretend it didn't happen?
My apologies in advance if anyone feels flamed by this. I do not want to
offend, just convince you that the more we know the safer we are. They
put a
sheet over dead bodies out of respect of the dead and the sensibilities
of
the living. That, in my mind, is the appropriate amount of censorship.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
Seattle
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
> The Oshkosh Avenger/RV6 incident is not one that I had ever
> considered so
> I did learn from it. The pictures were not gruesome but were very
> informative. I
> have not been in a similar taxiing situation but if I ever am I
> will make appropriate
> actions to NOT be in front of such a plane.
I think there is another, more general, lesson that we should take
from this accident. It is quite likely that the Avenger pilot knew
that taxing on a narrow taxi way with many other aircraft was risky.
But he probably justified it with something like: "I've done this
before, and it went OK, so it'll be OK this time too", or "Other war
bird pilots do it, so it must be safe enough", or "If I stop and shut
down until I get a wing walker, it will really mess up the other
aircraft."
Just because you've done something risky before, and got away with
it, doesn't mean you'll get away with it again.
Just because other people do it, and get away with it, doesn't mean
you'll get away with it.
Just because stopping isn't convenient, doesn't mean that continuing
is a safe thing to do.
Don't cut corners on safety.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Johnson" <rv@discursion.com>
I agree, Mark. The reponsibility must be ours as pilots for the complete operation
of our aircraft, including taxiing at an aviation event. Neither the EAA nor
the FAA can or should take on that responsibility. Perhaps that should also
be made clear in the NOTAM for next year, so there is no question in anyone's
mind.
No doubt the TBM pilot is profoundly sorry right now as well. I can't imagine dealing
with that sort of thing on my conscience.
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53096#53096
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: lower cowl heat shield picture? |
Here's how I did mine...
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Cowl.htm#Heat%20damage
Basically just look inside the lower cowl and put the heat shield
anywhere the exhaust is closer than about 6".
Randy Lervold
www.rv-8.com
www.rv-3.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Puckett, Gregory [DENTK]
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 8:09 AM
Subject: RV-List: lower cowl heat shield picture?
g'day all,
I'm getting ready to install some of the Van's stick-on heat shield
material to my lower cowl and would love to see a picture of where other
have placed this stuff and found it successful at preventing
burning/blistering.
My install is an angle valve I0360-A3B6D with Van's smooth bottom
s-type cowl and Vetterman exhaust.
Thanks,
Greg Puckett
RV-8
N881GP
(first engine start and taxi yesterday)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" <dlpier@lamar.colostate.edu>
These new microfiber towels are advertised as bing safe for plexiglass. Does
anyone have experience with them?
Don P
RV-9A 192DP
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
personally I think all these big aircraft should have their own runway and park
in their own parking area at OSH from now on, just my opinion.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
rv7 wingkit
reserved 287RV
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53105#53105
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: Cory Emberson <bootless@earthlink.net>
Yes, and they're terrific. No paper towels or tee-shirts, ever! (just
like wire hangars!) Be careful to launder them separately from your
other stuff, so the scratchy fibers from your jeans don't get stuck in
your m'fiber towels. They basically take the dirt and stuff from your
plex and pull it deeper into the towel, enabling you to clean the soft
plex with a clean cloth surface.
Every plexi cleaner professional or aircraft detailer I've spoken to has
been strongly emphatic on the need to use microfiber only on plex (water
and your non-ringed hand is a good initial cleaner, too).
best,
Cory Emberson
Contributing Editor
Kitplanes Magazine
Don/Marcia Piermattei wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" <dlpier@lamar.colostate.edu>
>
>These new microfiber towels are advertised as bing safe for plexiglass. Does
>anyone have experience with them?
>Don P
>RV-9A 192DP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com
The person that wrote the piece about the adjustments on the RV8 landing
gear. The 'how to' article,
Could you contact me at:
cecilth@juno.com
Sure would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Cecil
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
Don,
Have used microfiber cloth on plexiglas with no problems but be careful for
the sewing on the bound edges. Sometimes the sewing is a rather hard thread
and can scratch. Probably a polyester. Also, I use them only once, then wash
a load to remove trapped dirt particles.
Dale Ensing
> These new microfiber towels are advertised as bing safe for plexiglass.
Does
> anyone have experience with them?
> Don P
> RV-9A 192DP
Message 20
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Sportypilot" <sportypilot@stx.rr.com>
I found some allen head bolts today.. some washers and loctight & drilled
for safety wire maybe they will work
Thanks..
Danny..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Reiley" <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Misl bolts
> --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Danny,
>
> Very odd size indeed... you may need to get longer
> bolts and cut them off. Easy enough to do.
>
> Darrell
>
> --- Sportypilot <sportypilot@stx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for an 10-24 1/2 bolts with holes on
>> the heads for the lycoming 0320 seal retainer so I
>> can
>> mount my prop and spacer.. anyone have a good
>> location to get these, I have looked everywhere
>> locally..
>> #10 24threads per inch 1/2 long.. any ideas ? I need
>> 4 of them..
>>
>>
>> Danny..
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
Good point about the bound edges, Dale. I also clip the tags off the
cloths as well.
Dale Ensing wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
>Don,
>Have used microfiber cloth on plexiglas with no problems but be careful for
>the sewing on the bound edges. Sometimes the sewing is a rather hard thread
>and can scratch. Probably a polyester. Also, I use them only once, then wash
>a load to remove trapped dirt particles.
>
>Dale Ensing
>
>
>
>>These new microfiber towels are advertised as bing safe for plexiglass.
>>
>>
>Does
>
>
>>anyone have experience with them?
>>Don P
>>RV-9A 192DP
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
I been using them for the past 3 years with no problems. (I use them on
the whole airplane including the plexi.)
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,932 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" <dlpier@lamar.colostate.edu>
Subject: RV-List: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass
--> RV-List message posted by: "Don/Marcia Piermattei"
<dlpier@lamar.colostate.edu>
These new microfiber towels are advertised as bing safe for plexiglass.
Does
anyone have experience with them?
Don P
RV-9A 192DP
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
I'm sorry, but I disagree with some of these sentiments. No, I don't
want a shift in overall responsibility. However, Oshkosh has deaths
every year, it seems. If there are steps that can be taken to reduce
those deaths that aren't terribly onerous, I think it makes sense to
take those steps.
Ground handling accidents are easy to avoid. Adding a requirement
for an extra ground crew to assist any aircraft with over-the-nose
visibility issues wouldn't be onerous. The ground control frequency
could also warn people to maintain a larger distance when following
smaller aircraft. They could erect signs to this effect or simply
include it in a briefing to all large tail draggers.
Or they could have a 10-minute window every hour for certain types of
aircraft to queue up. So all the big aircraft would be clustered
together.
There are dozens of different steps that could alleviate the
likelihood of repeated ground handling accidents. A failure to take
any of them is an acknowledgment of spinelessness on the part of the
folks shirking the opportunity to increase safety.
I don't blame the EAA guys for this accident. The fault rests solely
with the pilot of the TBM. If you can't taxi your aircraft without
running over some poor guy in front of you, you have no business at
the controls of the aircraft. But the EAA could take fairly simple
steps to prevent it happening again.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd happily pay a $2 safety fee
to help provide for the types of ground crew that might prevent a
repeat. I sure as hell don't want to be run over by someone driving
his oversized toy up my back side.
-Joe
On Aug 7, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Dave Johnson wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Johnson" <rv@discursion.com>
>
> I agree, Mark. The reponsibility must be ours as pilots for the
> complete operation of our aircraft, including taxiing at an
> aviation event. Neither the EAA nor the FAA can or should take on
> that responsibility. Perhaps that should also be made clear in the
> NOTAM for next year, so there is no question in anyone's mind.
>
> No doubt the TBM pilot is profoundly sorry right now as well. I
> can't imagine dealing with that sort of thing on my conscience.
>
> Dave
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
>>The Avenger pilot reported that the airplane in front of the Avenger
was a green and white, high wing airplane with TUNDRA written on top of
the wing.
>>The Avenger pilot reported that he observed the Tundra pilot taxi off
the right side of the taxiway for some unknown reason.
>>The Avenger pilot reported that he spotted the airplane that was in
front of the Tundra airplane, and he stated that he had "100 yards of
free pavement" in front of the Avenger.
>>The Avenger pilot reported that when he heard the impact and saw
debris flying, he shut down the engine. He reported that he never saw
the airplane that he hit while he was taxiing.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that he was taxiing behind a green and white,
high wing airplane that had TUNDRA painted on the top of the wing.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that a gray airplane was in front of the Tundra
aircraft.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that he "didn't know the TBM was behind" his
airplane.
>>The RV6 pilot reported that he was not sure if he was taxiing forward
or if he was stopped when the Avenger struck the RV-6 from behind.
Based on their respective statements, it looks like neither the
TBM-Avenger Pilot, -nor the RV-6 Pilot knew about the presence of each
other!
How could that be possible, as clearly at least one of the two pilots
should have known of the proximity of the other at one point in time
while on the same taxiway?
I have met the Pilot of the TBM & his wife (who was with him in the
backseat). He is well known for repairing-, restoring- & flying all
kinds of Warbirds, and has done so for all his adult life. He is a very
careful operator of the expensive machines entrusted into his care. He
is not a risktaker. Needless to say, he and his wife are just devastated
about this freak accident that cost someone his life.
My heartfelt condolences go out to the accident victim and his family.
This accident should not have happened.
I was not present in either one cockpit-, nor did I see the actual
accident happen.
Everything else is just speculation based on incomplete information
given ...
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Horton
I think there is another, more general, lesson that we should take
from this accident. It is quite likely that the Avenger pilot knew
that taxing on a narrow taxi way with many other aircraft was risky.
But he probably justified it with something like: "I've done this
before, and it went OK, so it'll be OK this time too", or "Other war
bird pilots do it, so it must be safe enough", or "If I stop and shut
down until I get a wing walker, it will really mess up the other
aircraft."
Just because you've done something risky before, and got away with
it, doesn't mean you'll get away with it again.
Just because other people do it, and get away with it, doesn't mean
you'll get away with it.
Just because stopping isn't convenient, doesn't mean that continuing
is a safe thing to do.
Don't cut corners on safety.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
> Don,
> Have used microfiber cloth on plexiglas with no problems but be careful
> for
> the sewing on the bound edges. Sometimes the sewing is a rather hard
> thread
> and can scratch. Probably a polyester. Also, I use them only once, then
> wash
> a load to remove trapped dirt particles.
>
> Dale Ensing
>
>> These new microfiber towels are advertised as bing safe for plexiglass.
> Does
>> anyone have experience with them?
>> Don P
>> RV-9A 192DP
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
Hi Dale ...
What's a good source for microfiber cloth?
Thanks ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
> Don,
> Have used microfiber cloth on plexiglas with no problems but be careful
> for
> the sewing on the bound edges. Sometimes the sewing is a rather hard
> thread
> and can scratch. Probably a polyester. Also, I use them only once, then
> wash
> a load to remove trapped dirt particles.
>
> Dale Ensing
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
OK, I've pretty much sat this one out, but I feel like I have to jump in
here. Joe makes a few good points, but some that I flatly disagree with.
Many listers have put some level of blame on either the ground
volunteers, or the "system" in which they work. I feel qualified to
comment on this. I'm the guy in charge of RV parking at Oshkosh, and I
am very familiar with the workings of the ground operations.. I didn't
witness the accident, but I was on the scene within minutes, and for
several hours afterwords. I assisted the fire dept. in doing their
recovery operations, helped them go over the wreckage and look at the
integrity of fuel lines etc, and showed them where not to cut. I got to
spend more than plenty of time looking close up at the accident site, so
I feel somewhat qualified to comment on the accident (as much so as
anyone else on this list, anyway.)
Some have suggested that large warbird types have a "wing walker" to
escort them to and from the runways. That's an idea which looks good on
paper, but in reality is probably unworkable. To do this would require
a large increase in the number of people working the flight line, and a
coresponding increase in the number of vehicles. Keep in mind that
every one on the ground crew is a volunteer; we can't just go out and
hire another 100 people to increase our ranks. We face dwindling
numbers every year as it is. Mike (aka Suzie Q, and my OSH counterpart
down in Antique/Classic) has already addressed this on this list.
As for some of the other changes Joe suggested, such as departure slots
for warbirds, again this looks good in theory, but in practice is
unworkable. If we were to shut down the airport for 10 minutes every
hour to allow warbirds to do their thing, that would create huge backups
in the system, all the way out to Ripon. Anybody want to spend another
45 minutes taking the Rush Lake scenic tour? If we did this, and
imposed even greater delays into the system, I think it would have a
devastating effect on the convention. People would begin to stay away
in droves, in particular the warbird types. I think onerous is the
right word to describe this situation.
What happened here was absolutely a tragedy. However, it was a freak
accident, one that has never happened previously in the 36 years of OSH
shows. Do we want to go down a path that could have a devastating
effect on the future of the show, based on one accident? Anybody
remember that one single accident, between an airliner and a Cherokee,
resulted in the onerous rules that we deal with today, TCA's,
transponders etc. I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of what
happened, but I am try to suggest that we not throw the baby out with
the bathwater, based on a single, freak accident.
FWIW, us parking volunteers are having this very debate right now, over
on our own forum. We are trying to come up with a workable solution,
before something bad is forced down out throats.
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee
do not archive
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Ron,
You say we don't ever learn or can't be taught to avoid stupid
accidents. That's not true. Just yesterday I almost read about 4
accidents that didn't happen because the pilots were awares from lessons
learned from others less fortunate. We can check the NTSB to see read
about the stupid-pilot-tricks that are still being pulled. What we
don't get to read about are the tens, hundreds or even thousands of
accidents that don't happen because of training, education,
lessons-learned and peer pressure to do better.
Chuck
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:04 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Accident photos
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
>
> >I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point
> >that we can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of
> those who
> >share our interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about
> >Scott Crossfield's accident because that might not show the
> respect he
> >deserves. We shouldn't look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6
> chopped up
> >by a prop because it might offend someone's sensibilities?
>
> I had never heard of Crossfield but my initial thought was
> that he screwed up royally. That opinion has only been
> reinforced by obtaining additional info about the pilot error
> leading to death event. I learned nothing from that
> pilot
> error event since I already know that flying into severe
> thunderstorms is stupid.
>
> The Oshkosh Avenger/RV6 incident is not one that I had ever
> considered so I did learn from it. The pictures were not
> gruesome but were very
> informative. I
> have not been in a similar taxiing situation but if I ever am
> I will make
> appropriate
> actions to NOT be in front of such a plane.
>
> I often hear after aviation fatalities that we can all learn from
> it. Personally in recent
> years I don't recall any that I learned from except for this taxiing
> death. There may
> have been others that I don't recall. Fact is that pilots
> have always done
> stupid
> things that result in fatalities. I suspect that they always
> will and I
> see no way to
> dramatically reduce those pilot error fatalities.
>
> It would be great if the RV community could do something to
> reduce fatal
> pilot errors.
> Perhaps some sort of web-based training that discusses the
> major causes of
> deaths
> from pilot errors. If that training resulted in a reduction
> in insurance
> rates I would do
> it every year. Ideally it would mean fewer RV pilot deaths.
>
> And it would include photos.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>..
>What's a good source for microfiber cloth?
>Thanks ...
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
Walmart auto section.
Ron Lee
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
I'd like to point out I didn't suggest shutting down the airport for
10 minutes an hour. I suggested a 10-minute departure timeframe for
large aircraft to queue up. This is a little different. If I'm in a
small airplane, i would know not to fire my engines up from xx:30 to
xx:40 every hour, but that if I were in a large aircraft (or whatever
the criteria would be) that's the only time I should fire up my
engines. This would cluster departing aircraft of the type to run
over little aircraft all together. That big warbird is far more
likely to see another big warbird than he is a tiny RV.
It's only one idea, and if it's not workable, then find ideas that are.
They could also rework parking or taxiways somewhat so that large
aircraft are less likely to be following small aircraft. Perhaps.
And who says you can't hire some extra crew if you can't get enough
volunteers? Charge every landing aircraft $2 safety fee to cover the
cost.
Or have a staging area for large craft. Have a golf cart with some
tall tall flags on the back. Make all the big aircraft collect
together, then follow the hard-to-miss golf cart to the runway. This
is a small inconvenience to departing big aircraft, a minor amount of
volunteer staff, and virtually guarantees no repeats of this type (at
least for departure). For arrival, you could do something similar by
having large aircraft depart the landing runway in the opposite
direction from small guys, and then have a golf cart to follow to the
parking area.
Lots of ideas that could be kicked around. I wasn't suggesting that
any particular idea was the best possible. But I am suggesting that
there's no excuse to just toss our hands in the air and say, "It's
someone else's problem."
Note that I don't blame the volunteers for this accident. But I do
blame anyone who anticipated accidents like this, was in a position
to do something about them, and didn't. None of my ideas are
horribly onerous, and folks who know the operations better could take
some of them, rework them into some sort of practical nature, and
save lives in the future.
-J
On Aug 7, 2006, at 1:59 PM, Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> OK, I've pretty much sat this one out, but I feel like I have to
> jump in here. Joe makes a few good points, but some that I flatly
> disagree with.
>
> Many listers have put some level of blame on either the ground
> volunteers, or the "system" in which they work. I feel qualified
> to comment on this. I'm the guy in charge of RV parking at
> Oshkosh, and I am very familiar with the workings of the ground
> operations.. I didn't witness the accident, but I was on the scene
> within minutes, and for several hours afterwords. I assisted the
> fire dept. in doing their recovery operations, helped them go over
> the wreckage and look at the integrity of fuel lines etc, and
> showed them where not to cut. I got to spend more than plenty of
> time looking close up at the accident site, so I feel somewhat
> qualified to comment on the accident (as much so as anyone else on
> this list, anyway.)
>
> Some have suggested that large warbird types have a "wing walker"
> to escort them to and from the runways. That's an idea which looks
> good on paper, but in reality is probably unworkable. To do this
> would require a large increase in the number of people working the
> flight line, and a coresponding increase in the number of
> vehicles. Keep in mind that every one on the ground crew is a
> volunteer; we can't just go out and hire another 100 people to
> increase our ranks. We face dwindling numbers every year as it
> is. Mike (aka Suzie Q, and my OSH counterpart down in Antique/
> Classic) has already addressed this on this list.
>
> As for some of the other changes Joe suggested, such as departure
> slots for warbirds, again this looks good in theory, but in
> practice is unworkable. If we were to shut down the airport for 10
> minutes every hour to allow warbirds to do their thing, that would
> create huge backups in the system, all the way out to Ripon.
> Anybody want to spend another 45 minutes taking the Rush Lake
> scenic tour? If we did this, and imposed even greater delays into
> the system, I think it would have a devastating effect on the
> convention. People would begin to stay away in droves, in
> particular the warbird types. I think onerous is the right word to
> describe this situation.
>
> What happened here was absolutely a tragedy. However, it was a
> freak accident, one that has never happened previously in the 36
> years of OSH shows. Do we want to go down a path that could have a
> devastating effect on the future of the show, based on one
> accident? Anybody remember that one single accident, between an
> airliner and a Cherokee, resulted in the onerous rules that we deal
> with today, TCA's, transponders etc. I'm not trying to minimize
> the seriousness of what happened, but I am try to suggest that we
> not throw the baby out with the bathwater, based on a single, freak
> accident.
>
> FWIW, us parking volunteers are having this very debate right now,
> over on our own forum. We are trying to come up with a workable
> solution, before something bad is forced down out throats.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6
> Milwaukee
> do not archive
>
>
>>
>
>
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/7/06 12:53:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
rv@discursion.com writes:
> Neither the EAA nor the FAA can or should take on that responsibility.
===========================
Dave:
Playing lawyer ... Check you local listings for the 2PM slot.
The EAA automatically takes on responsibility by sponsoring the event and
even more responsibility by providing Ground Crew. Either way they are
responsible and what is the definition of Class D Tower operations? Control of
aircraft departing and arriving while on the ground and advisories when in the
air
within the air space.
It is akin to parking your car via a Valet or checking your coat. If the
service is provided the risk is assumed. ASSUMED not as in making an ass out of
you and me ... But, as in taking on the responsibility!
YET, by FAA definition the accident would not have happened IF the pilot did
not get in the plane.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Accident photos |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
Chuck, you either misunderstood me or I was not clear in my message.
I said (I think) that I rarely learn from these accidents because they are
things that I already know (previously learned). The Avenger/RV6 death
was a new one for me and was a learning experience.
I don't have statistics on accidents but I would guess that running out
of fuel and flying into bad weather are major causal factors. If people
really learned then those should soon be minor causal factors. Yet
year after year they still cause problems. Why is that? My guess is
that there will always be pilots who are destined to die or have a
non-fatal accident for things that are preventable. It is human nature.
I would hope that you do not need to hear every few months about a
person dying because he flew into a thunderstorm to know that you should
not. So my view is that saying that we can all learn from such an event
is as useful as saying that at least the pilot died doing something he loved.
Your assertion about 10s,100s or 1000s of people not having accidents
because of something they learned (NTSB report?) frankly is not verifiable.
I would believe that the pilot community as a whole DID LEARN if some
sort of educational process were implemented and within a year or so
you saw dramatic reduction in a given accident cause (such as flying
into weather).
My final comment about RV community training was aimed at that so if
you or anyone else has ideas on how RV pilots could truly learn and
drastically reduce current accident causal factors then we should try it.
I am more than eager to learn of ways to reduce my genetic disposition to
doing stupid things. Until then, I will just continue my normal conservative
flying.
Ron Lee
At 01:23 PM 8/7/2006, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
>
>Ron,
>
>You say we don't ever learn or can't be taught to avoid stupid
>accidents. That's not true. Just yesterday I almost read about 4
>accidents that didn't happen because the pilots were awares from lessons
>learned from others less fortunate. We can check the NTSB to see read
>about the stupid-pilot-tricks that are still being pulled. What we
>don't get to read about are the tens, hundreds or even thousands of
>accidents that don't happen because of training, education,
>lessons-learned and peer pressure to do better.
>
>Chuck
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee
> > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:04 AM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Accident photos
> >
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
> >
> >
> > >I'm with Jerry on this one. We have censored each other to the point
> > >that we can't talk about and learn anything from the loss of
> > those who
> > >share our interest in flying little airplanes. We can't talk about
> > >Scott Crossfield's accident because that might not show the
> > respect he
> > >deserves. We shouldn't look at pictures of a beautiful RV-6
> > chopped up
> > >by a prop because it might offend someone's sensibilities?
> >
> > I had never heard of Crossfield but my initial thought was
> > that he screwed up royally. That opinion has only been
> > reinforced by obtaining additional info about the pilot error
> > leading to death event. I learned nothing from that
> > pilot
> > error event since I already know that flying into severe
> > thunderstorms is stupid.
> >
> > The Oshkosh Avenger/RV6 incident is not one that I had ever
> > considered so I did learn from it. The pictures were not
> > gruesome but were very
> > informative. I
> > have not been in a similar taxiing situation but if I ever am
> > I will make
> > appropriate
> > actions to NOT be in front of such a plane.
> >
> > I often hear after aviation fatalities that we can all learn from
> > it. Personally in recent
> > years I don't recall any that I learned from except for this taxiing
> > death. There may
> > have been others that I don't recall. Fact is that pilots
> > have always done
> > stupid
> > things that result in fatalities. I suspect that they always
> > will and I
> > see no way to
> > dramatically reduce those pilot error fatalities.
> >
> > It would be great if the RV community could do something to
> > reduce fatal
> > pilot errors.
> > Perhaps some sort of web-based training that discusses the
> > major causes of
> > deaths
> > from pilot errors. If that training resulted in a reduction
> > in insurance
> > rates I would do
> > it every year. Ideally it would mean fewer RV pilot deaths.
> >
> > And it would include photos.
> >
> > Ron Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
If you have the option to buy the microfiber that looks closer in texture to
chamois rather than a loosely woven cloth, chose the tighter knit chamois
weave. I got that tip from one of the Oshkosh seminars last week on
Plexiglas. Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee@pcisys.net>
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
>
>>..
>>What's a good source for microfiber cloth?
>>Thanks ...
>>Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
> Walmart auto section.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | oshkosh accident |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
I really don't see where I even implied slightly that the PIC wasn't
responsible. What I said was (emphatically) that he could have used
some help. I'm sure the the Avenger PIC tried hard not to create a
spectacle. He just failed. There are always many things that can
change the outcome of an accident. However, I don't see where "waiting
'till they go by" or "waiting 'till all the other planes are gone" is a
solution. That guy behind you while you're waiting just may have the
same vision problem. Not a good solution to orderly departures whether
it's Oshkosh, Lakeland or a weekend airshow somewhere.
Yup, all the fault lies with the Avenger pilot ..... assessing blame is
easy here ..... but the point is that the accident was ..... most
likely ...... preventable if the pilot had some help.
If you want a really chilling wakeup call, sit by the taxiway watching a
string of departing planes and count those that are busily programming
their GPS. I know, they're tough to spot when they're behind you. Be
afraid, be very afraid.
Linn
do not archive.
Mark Sletten wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa@hometel.com>
>
>Beware, this is an op ed post,
>
SNIP
>I know I'm going to hear from those of you accusing me of armchair
>quarterbacking. That's as may be, but I felt compelled to comment in light
>of Linn's (maybe unintentional - see below) hints that someone other than
>the PIC might be responsible for the safe movement of his or her aircraft on
>the ground. Even *WITH* ground spotters, taxiing safely is still the
>responsibility of the PIC. To even hint, however faintly, otherwise is to
>open Pandora's Box.
>
SNIP
>Linn Walters said:
>
>I read the NTSB report and understood exactly how it happened. The addition
>of volunteers with paddles to regulate the flow on the taxiway could have
>prevented this accident. It may be as simple as a golf cart on the grass to
>aid those pilots with forward visibility problems .... and as I said, it
>doesn't reside only with the warbirds ..... would go a long way to prevent a
>reoccurrence. The only other solution would be to set up departure times by
>type and I'm sure nobody wants that. What saddens me me about this accident
>is that it truly was preventable ..... like most accidents are.
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | more: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Lemme comment .... since I've been doing that!!!
Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> OK, I've pretty much sat this one out, but I feel like I have to jump
> in here. Joe makes a few good points, but some that I flatly disagree
> with.
Me too.
> Many listers have put some level of blame on either the ground
> volunteers, or the "system" in which they work.
I don't see that. I only saw that there could be some help. Wait a
minute. I'm the one that suggested that!!!
> I feel qualified to comment on this. I'm the guy in charge of RV
> parking at Oshkosh, and I am very familiar with the workings of the
> ground operations..
And my hat's off to you. I am familiar with volunteers. I'm a 31 year,
full time, volunteer during Sun-N-Fun. (Thanks for the applause,)
> I didn't witness the accident, but I was on the scene within
> minutes, and for several hours afterwords. I assisted the fire dept.
> in doing their recovery operations, helped them go over the wreckage
> and look at the integrity of fuel lines etc, and showed them where not
> to cut. I got to spend more than plenty of time looking close up at
> the accident site, so I feel somewhat qualified to comment on the
> accident (as much so as anyone else on this list, anyway.)
I do not envy you that part.
> Some have suggested that large warbird types have a "wing walker" to
> escort them to and from the runways. That's an idea which looks good
> on paper, but in reality is probably unworkable. To do this would
> require a large increase in the number of people working the flight
> line, and a coresponding increase in the number of vehicles. Keep in
> mind that every one on the ground crew is a volunteer; we can't just
> go out and hire another 100 people to increase our ranks. We face
> dwindling numbers every year as it is. Mike (aka Suzie Q, and my OSH
> counterpart down in Antique/Classic) has already addressed this on
> this list.
Actually, it should be very easy. Make it incumbent on the Warbirds
(primarily) to use one of their many golfcarts as an escort. For the
rest of us with a visibility problem (only addressing this one type of
accident here), maybe a call on an 'escort channel' could bring a golf
cart for help. It's a long walk way out there to the runway and back!!!
> As for some of the other changes Joe suggested, such as departure
> slots for warbirds, again this looks good in theory, but in practice
> is unworkable. If we were to shut down the airport for 10 minutes
> every hour to allow warbirds to do their thing, that would create huge
> backups in the system, all the way out to Ripon. Anybody want to
> spend another 45 minutes taking the Rush Lake scenic tour? If we did
> this, and imposed even greater delays into the system, I think it
> would have a devastating effect on the convention. People would begin
> to stay away in droves, in particular the warbird types. I think
> onerous is the right word to describe this situation.
I agree.
> What happened here was absolutely a tragedy. However, it was a freak
> accident, one that has never happened previously in the 36 years of
> OSH shows. Do we want to go down a path that could have a devastating
> effect on the future of the show, based on one accident? Anybody
> remember that one single accident, between an airliner and a Cherokee,
> resulted in the onerous rules that we deal with today, TCA's,
> transponders etc. I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of what
> happened, but I am try to suggest that we not throw the baby out with
> the bathwater, based on a single, freak accident.
Amen. However, when (notice I didn't say "if") it happens again, the
onerous rules may still come. There has to be someething done to
prevent it happening again, and it can't take droves of volunteers. If
the wingwalkers (or cartdrivers) aren't an effective solution, then just
maybe a few volunteers spaced along the taxiway (safety marshals?? a new
volunteer group???) with a radio would suffice.
> FWIW, us parking volunteers are having this very debate right now,
> over on our own forum. We are trying to come up with a workable
> solution, before something bad is forced down out throats.
And I'll bet that same discussion is happening on 90% of the lists out
there. Again, this was truly a tragedy. A preventable one, in my book,
and I'm sure that some change will occur because of it. The fact that
it's not happened before (that we are aware of) says that we've been
surprisingly lucky so far. But then, maybe it's been because we really
overly cautious and operate safely as we can. For whatever the reason,
the link broke. It's up to the collective 'us' to find a fix. And I'm
sure we will.
There was also an email (can't find it now) that painted the Avenger
pilot as arrogant and a risk-taker. I myself find the warbird pilots a
little arrogant too, but I've never met one that was a risk-taker. At
least no more of a risk-taker than the rest of us. The characterization
was in poor taste (IMHO) and unwarranted. I was a little aggravated by
it. I think it's terribly inappropriate to put words in anyones mouth.
Linn
do not archive
>
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6
> Milwaukee
> do not archive
>
>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | oshkosh accident |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JT Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
Although I generally agree that the PIC of the Avenger was at fault, I'd bet
my last dollar that EAA gets sued as part of that loss, though. It's their
party after all, but the main reason is that they likely have more $ and
insurance coverage available than the Avenger pilot (who will certainly also
be named in any lawsuit).
JT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn Walters
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:04 PM
Subject: RV-List: oshkosh accident
--> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
I really don't see where I even implied slightly that the PIC wasn't
responsible. What I said was (emphatically) that he could have used some
help. I'm sure the the Avenger PIC tried hard not to create a spectacle.
He just failed. There are always many things that can change the outcome of
an accident. However, I don't see where "waiting 'till they go by" or
"waiting 'till all the other planes are gone" is a solution. That guy
behind you while you're waiting just may have the same vision problem. Not
a good solution to orderly departures whether it's Oshkosh, Lakeland or a
weekend airshow somewhere.
Yup, all the fault lies with the Avenger pilot ..... assessing blame is easy
here ..... but the point is that the accident was ..... most likely ......
preventable if the pilot had some help.
If you want a really chilling wakeup call, sit by the taxiway watching a
string of departing planes and count those that are busily programming their
GPS. I know, they're tough to spot when they're behind you. Be afraid, be
very afraid.
Linn
do not archive.
Mark Sletten wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa@hometel.com>
>
>Beware, this is an op ed post,
>
SNIP
>I know I'm going to hear from those of you accusing me of armchair
>quarterbacking. That's as may be, but I felt compelled to comment in
>light of Linn's (maybe unintentional - see below) hints that someone
>other than the PIC might be responsible for the safe movement of his or
>her aircraft on the ground. Even *WITH* ground spotters, taxiing safely
>is still the responsibility of the PIC. To even hint, however faintly,
>otherwise is to open Pandora's Box.
>
SNIP
>Linn Walters said:
>
>I read the NTSB report and understood exactly how it happened. The
>addition of volunteers with paddles to regulate the flow on the taxiway
>could have prevented this accident. It may be as simple as a golf cart
>on the grass to aid those pilots with forward visibility problems ....
>and as I said, it doesn't reside only with the warbirds ..... would go
>a long way to prevent a reoccurrence. The only other solution would be
>to set up departure times by type and I'm sure nobody wants that. What
>saddens me me about this accident is that it truly was preventable .....
like most accidents are.
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: oshkosh accident |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
----- Original Message -----
> --> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
>
> snip
>
> If you want a really chilling wakeup call, sit by the taxiway watching a
> string of departing planes and count those that are busily programming
> their GPS. I know, they're tough to spot when they're behind you. Be
> afraid, be very afraid.
> Linn
>
> do not archive.
((((((((((())))))))))))))
I hope we can all agree that programming the waypoints on our GPS's is best
left for the copilot; or, for PIC while NOT taxiing down the taxiway. I
fly a little RV7 and found myself making lots of S turns to keep the plane
in front of me where I wanted it when departing 18. I don't think I could
do anything about the plane behind me about controlling its position and
what I might do if it misbehaved. The tower had some watchful eye on us for
departure approval and now I realize they do nothing for the ground control.
Yes taxiing at Oshkosh is something for which to give deep respect and
concern.
Hopefully we can all learn a lesson here without suffering the ultimate
consequence ourselves. I am looking for a rear view mirror to attach to the
top of my canopy to at least see something behind me when on the ground.
Maybe Vince Frazier's idea of a small video camera up front would also work
in back. A switch could change the view when desired.
May peace somehow find those who have been burdened by this terrible
accident. Larry in Indiana
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Microfiber cloth and plexiglass |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
Hello Jerry,
Here is a website for microfiber cloths from Griots Garage. But, as someone
else indicated, you can also purchase at auto parts stores/departments. Not
all are created equal. As I indicated, check the bound edges for finish.
Microfiber dish cloths can also be puchased from kitchen deparments. They
are usually smaller but I like the size for a single time use of cleaning
the w/screen. Then wash them and use again.
http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1=L1_1000&L2=L2_1001&SKU=11096
Are you enjoying the RV-4? How is the 8 coming along?
Dale
> Hi Dale ...
> What's a good source for microfiber cloth?
> Thanks ...
> Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >
> > Don,
> > Have used microfiber cloth on plexiglas with no problems but be careful
> > for
> > the sewing on the bound edges. Sometimes the sewing is a rather hard
> > thread
> > and can scratch. Probably a polyester. Also, I use them only once, then
> > wash
> > a load to remove trapped dirt particles.
> >
> > Dale Ensing
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: "gordon or marge" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Point
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
FWIW, us parking volunteers are having this very debate right now, over
on our own forum. We are trying to come up with a workable solution,
before something bad is forced down out throats.
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee
do not archive
Jeff: I wish you well in your search for a workable solution. Assessing
blame is not helpful. Efforts to regulate flow in some way will likely
result in more trouble than they save. This accident has bothered me more
than most because I had not really considered that this might happen,
rather, I've trusted (for the most part) the pilot behind me to not run over
me. I've not ignored what's behind me entirely but haven't been terribly
diligent either. That the warbird pilot could taxi ~1000' totally unaware
that the -6 was in front of him is astonishing, but apparently that was the
case. Some things I intend to do in the future:
1) I will strive to taxi to one side or the other of the taxiway, not direct
nose to tail.
2) If forced to stop I will turn toward a sideline and look over my shoulder
3) If necessary I will break radio silence and try to break out of line.
4) If followed by an aircraft with poor or nonexistant forward visibility
I'll strive by some means to advise him I am in front of him.
5) I and my passenger will together try to cover the following aircraft at
all times.
The above may help. At least they will make me more aware and more
comfortable. Please don't develop draconian rules. The departure briefing
could include a caution. Perhaps the staggered positions could help.
Probably none of these things can cover all possibilities but at least we
have all been put on notice.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 7 Aug 2006, at 14:59, Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> What happened here was absolutely a tragedy. However, it was a
> freak accident, one that has never happened previously in the 36
> years of OSH shows. Do we want to go down a path that could have a
> devastating effect on the future of the show, based on one
> accident? Anybody remember that one single accident, between an
> airliner and a Cherokee, resulted in the onerous rules that we deal
> with today, TCA's, transponders etc. I'm not trying to minimize
> the seriousness of what happened, but I am try to suggest that we
> not throw the baby out with the bathwater, based on a single, freak
> accident.
You seem to be saying that one fatality in 36 years is an acceptable
loss rate, so no changes are needed. What loss rate would it take
before you would conclude that changes were warranted?
>
> FWIW, us parking volunteers are having this very debate right now,
> over on our own forum. We are trying to come up with a workable
> solution, before something bad is forced down out throats.
I'm not familiar with the taxi way widths of the various taxi routes
at OSH. The crux of the problem appears to be that some taxi ways
are too narrow to allow large tail draggers to S turn. Given that
most of the large tail draggers are in one area, is there any hope of
giving them taxi routes during peak traffic periods that keep them on
wider taxi ways, maybe at the expense of funneling them all to 09/27?
Why not throw this problem over to the EAA Warbirds division? They
seem to have a good supply of volunteers. "Simply" require that they
provide wing walkers for large taildragger warbirds. If they don't
have enough wing walkers, then they would have to back off on the
number of warbird arrivals and/or departures.
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
do not archive
Message 41
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| Subject: | Reno tickets for sale |
I have Reno air race tickets for sale for two people for the 15th 16th and 17th.
Reversed seat uppper seats in G and pit passes. Face value $348.
Unexpected prop overhaul blew my budget.
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
-----Original Message-----
>From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>You seem to be saying that one fatality in 36 years is an acceptable
>loss rate, so no changes are needed. What loss rate would it take
>before you would conclude that changes were warranted?
That's not what I was saying, and I'm sorry if anyone interpreted it that way.
Clearly, some changes are warranted, and clearly changes will be forthcoming.
However, any proposed changes should be kept in the proper perspective, and
should be tempered such that they do not have a chilling effect on the entire
convention. Large airshows like OSH operate under a different set of rules than
day-to-day operations. The reduced seperation standards, for example, are
neccessary to allow the volume of traffic in and out efficiently. Anytime you
reduce such margins, you increase the element of danger. Anything which reduces
this efficiency will have an adverse effect on operations, and any proposed
changes should be viewed with this in mind.
In other words, we could run OSH like any other airport, with several minute intervals
between landing aircraft, and all ground movements coordinated by a ground
controller. This would certainly reduce accidents, but also destroy the
show in the process.
>>
>I'm not familiar with the taxi way widths of the various taxi routes
>at OSH. The crux of the problem appears to be that some taxi ways
>are too narrow to allow large tail draggers to S turn. Given that
>most of the large tail draggers are in one area, is there any hope of
>giving them taxi routes during peak traffic periods that keep them on
>wider taxi ways, maybe at the expense of funneling them all to 09/27?
True, most warbirds park in one area, but they move back and forth around the airport,
landing and departing from one of six different runways. And, how do
you define peak traffic periods? This accident could have occured whether there
were 10 airplanes in the que, or 100. Traffic levels ebb and flow throughout
the day. If we are to have a policy of escorting warbirds back and forth,
then it has to be an all or nothing idea. And, of course, do you stop at warbirds?
How about Cessna 195s? Stearmans? Harmon Rockets? Where do you draw
the line? These are the things we are trying to work out.
>
>Why not throw this problem over to the EAA Warbirds division? They
>seem to have a good supply of volunteers. "Simply" require that they
>provide wing walkers for large taildragger warbirds. If they don't
>have enough wing walkers, then they would have to back off on the
>number of warbird arrivals and/or departures.
That is an excellent idea, and pretty much mirrors my idea. Each warbird would
have to be escorted by a two-person vehicle (a driver and a spotter) from the
runway to the tie-down. No spotter= no movement. Of course, getting pilots
to adhere to a policy will be tough, hell, we can't even get people to read the
NOTAM before flying in. Of course, this service could be offered to any other
taildragger pilot who requested it. But, of course this requires more bodies
and more vehicles, both of which are in short supply. And that is where the
idea runs into problems.
Anybody out there want to volunteer for this duty next year?
This solution will minimize delays for non-warbirds and keep the works functioning
efficiently. What I fear is that some of the more onerous solutions will
be implemented.
I agree it should fall on the warbirds people, but this accident occurred on our
(homebuilt parking) taxiway, so we have a stake in this too.
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee
do not archive
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Leaning on ground? |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/6/06 9:19:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
marknlisa@hometel.com writes:
> A final note, do a 20 second run-up (at least 1800 RPM) prior to every
> engine shut down. This will activate the anti-leading agent in the fuel
> further reducing lead deposits. I run up to 1800 RPM, time for 20 seconds,
> quickly back to 1200 RPM, then immediately pull the mixture to kill the
> engine. If you don't touch the throttle, the next time you start the engine
> it will already be at 1200 RPM - ready for setting the mixture to ground
> lean.
>
> Mark Sletten
> Legacy FG N828LM
> http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
===================================
Mark:
I have seen this lean at shut down procedure written up by Lycoming. I have
great reservations about this procedure.
1 - Consider you just did an hour flight or maybe even a half hour flight.
Weren't you leaning during that flight? So why should you have to do it again?
2 - You just did this this leaning procedure before you took off to remove
the lead deposits. I would then ask two questions here:
a> Why not just do this procedure BEFORE you take off. Why would you have to
do it AGAIN after you land? Or;
b> If you did it after you land why would you have to do it again BEFORE you
take off? Confusing ain't it?
3 - You just did your flight, at least durring the flight even with leaning
you had a large volume of air moving through your cowling, helping things to
cool off. So, why would you sit on the ground heat the engine, then shut down
just to saturate the engine and the area under the cowl with heat?
Sounds like Lycoming has an ulterior motive for doing this procedure.
4 - What does heat saturation do? Well, it dries out hoses, wires, ty-wraps,
anti-chafe material ... add to the list as you see fit.
But, here is one area I noticed heat failure ... The plastic coupling on the
Vacuum Pump. Mine failed after 1935 Hours. Close inspection under
magnification revealed heat cracks. I also opened up the pump only to find PERFECTLY
GOOD insides. Probably would have gone for an additional 1935 Hours. Guess
where I'm putting a small blast tube? First guess doesn't count.
So, personally, I do not see any advantage in this procedure.
YMMV, yet there just seems to be holes in the procedure.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 7 Aug 2006, at 21:51, Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>> I'm not familiar with the taxi way widths of the various taxi routes
>> at OSH. The crux of the problem appears to be that some taxi ways
>> are too narrow to allow large tail draggers to S turn. Given that
>> most of the large tail draggers are in one area, is there any hope of
>> giving them taxi routes during peak traffic periods that keep them on
>> wider taxi ways, maybe at the expense of funneling them all to 09/27?
>
> True, most warbirds park in one area, but they move back and forth
> around the airport, landing and departing from one of six different
> runways. And, how do you define peak traffic periods? This
> accident could have occured whether there were 10 airplanes in the
> que, or 100. Traffic levels ebb and flow throughout the day. If
> we are to have a policy of escorting warbirds back and forth, then
> it has to be an all or nothing idea. And, of course, do you stop
> at warbirds? How about Cessna 195s? Stearmans? Harmon Rockets?
> Where do you draw the line? These are the things we are trying to
> work out.
The way I see it, any tail dragger should be able to taxi safely, if
there is enough room to S-turn. The problem comes when you put large
tail draggers on narrow taxi ways. So the C195s, Stearmans, Rockets,
etc should be able to taxi safely, and it is the pilot's
responsibility to do just that.
Obviously, the large tail dragger pilot also has full responsibility
to taxi safely, but the "system" should make every effort to put him
in a situation where that is possible. If the taxi way is too narrow
to allow S-turns, then the only way a large tail dragger can taxi
safely is with some outside assistance. The Avenger pilot was put in
a very difficult situation. Once he was marshalled onto a narrow
taxi way with no wing walkers, he had two choices: press on and hope
for the best, or shut down and become a road block. He gambled with
option 1, and he lost.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Leaning on ground? |
Hi Barry! The Lycoming 'leaning/lead removing process' is done just
before takeoff and just before shutdown because it supposes that you
were taxiing around with the engine just above idle power. Low power
operations do not get the cylinder temps up so the natural lead
scavenging process can occur. Of course, if you leaned on the ground
that violates Lycomings "8500' 75% power" rule so they can't support
that. Mark could lessen the low power lead fouling problem by
aggressive leaning on the ground or switch to an unleaded fuel.
Linn
do not archive
FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 8/6/06 9:19:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>marknlisa@hometel.com writes:
>
>
>
>>A final note, do a 20 second run-up (at least 1800 RPM) prior to every
>> engine shut down. This will activate the anti-leading agent in the fuel
>> further reducing lead deposits. I run up to 1800 RPM, time for 20 seconds,
>> quickly back to 1200 RPM, then immediately pull the mixture to kill the
>> engine. If you don't touch the throttle, the next time you start the engine
>> it will already be at 1200 RPM - ready for setting the mixture to ground
>> lean.
>>
>> Mark Sletten
>> Legacy FG N828LM
>> http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
>>
>>
>===================================
>Mark:
>
>I have seen this lean at shut down procedure written up by Lycoming. I have
>great reservations about this procedure.
>1 - Consider you just did an hour flight or maybe even a half hour flight.
>Weren't you leaning during that flight? So why should you have to do it again?
>
>2 - You just did this this leaning procedure before you took off to remove
>the lead deposits. I would then ask two questions here:
>a> Why not just do this procedure BEFORE you take off. Why would you have to
>do it AGAIN after you land? Or;
>b> If you did it after you land why would you have to do it again BEFORE you
>take off? Confusing ain't it?
>
>3 - You just did your flight, at least durring the flight even with leaning
>you had a large volume of air moving through your cowling, helping things to
>cool off. So, why would you sit on the ground heat the engine, then shut down
>just to saturate the engine and the area under the cowl with heat?
>Sounds like Lycoming has an ulterior motive for doing this procedure.
>
>4 - What does heat saturation do? Well, it dries out hoses, wires, ty-wraps,
>anti-chafe material ... add to the list as you see fit.
>But, here is one area I noticed heat failure ... The plastic coupling on the
>Vacuum Pump. Mine failed after 1935 Hours. Close inspection under
>magnification revealed heat cracks. I also opened up the pump only to find PERFECTLY
>GOOD insides. Probably would have gone for an additional 1935 Hours. Guess
>where I'm putting a small blast tube? First guess doesn't count.
>
>So, personally, I do not see any advantage in this procedure.
>YMMV, yet there just seems to be holes in the procedure.
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
>
>"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
>time."
>Yamashiada
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Thanks for the advise guys, I knew I could count on you for the facts. I am
just looking to get the windy ultralight experience without spending a bunch
of cash on a new toy. I figured I could try doors off a couple of times and
get it out of my system....then get back to the real challenge of building
an RV 10.
Cheers..
Evan Johnson
www.evansaviationproducts.com
(530)247-0375
(530)351-1776 cell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: doors off?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> On 8:47:08 2006-08-03 "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
wrote:
> > Does anybody know if it is ok to take the doors off of my Cessna 150?
> > I know its ok on the 172 because they have removable pins in the door
> > hinges...my 150 does not. I apologize for the non RV question, but I
> > figured one of you high time pilots out there could probably answer
> > this. Its a 1976, and NOT an aerobat...just the regular one. Thanks
> > in advance... do not archive
>
> The doors on a Cessna 150 are not structural, so if you can handle the
> breeze you can fly without them just fine. For what it's worth, i've
flown
> in an Aerobat without the doors (intentionally), and while it's windy, it
> flies just fine.
>
> If you're looking to take pictures, you may find it easier to just remove
> the window from the door. That would give you enough opening for
pictures,
> and still provide some wind protection inside the cockpit. It'll depend
on
> what kind of hinge mechanism is on the window though... It may be easier
to
> just unscrew the door hinges.
>
> -Rob
>
>
Message 47
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Perkinson" <bobperk@bellsouth.net>
I do know that if you open both doors at the same time on a 150 with the
flaps down you go down a whole lot faster than normal. You can fall out of
the sky almost straight down, no forward air speed flat as a pancake. I
know.
Bob Perkinson
Hendersonville, TN.
RV9 N658RP Reserved
If nothing changes
Nothing changes
--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
<evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Thanks for the advise guys, I knew I could count on you for the facts. I am
just looking to get the windy ultralight experience without spending a bunch
of cash on a new toy. I figured I could try doors off a couple of times and
get it out of my system....then get back to the real challenge of building
an RV 10.
Cheers..
Evan Johnson
Message 48
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In a message dated 8/7/2006 9:25:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bobperk@bellsouth.net writes:
do know that if you open both doors at the same time on a 150 with the
flaps down you go down a whole lot faster than normal. You can fall out of
the sky almost straight down, no forward air speed flat as a pancake. I
know.
Alright, I'll bite.
How do you know this? Details?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV-8, Wings
San Ramon, California
Do Not Archive
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: SL-30 and GTX-327 mounting trays |
--> RV-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
Charlie:
You are correct. I'm surprised, but that looks like it will work. I
also checked the SL-30 tray and found that it has about 1/16" of space
for the screw head, not 1/32". Stark Avionics informs me that they use
6-32 countersunk screws on the SL-30 mounting tray. The heads stick up,
since the you can't countersink the tray, but once again, they don't
stick up enough to interfere with the radio sliding in and out. Not
pretty, but they say it works well. (Why doesn't Garmin supply the
right screws?) I called Garmin and they couldn't tell me what screw to use.
Thanks,
chaztuna@adelphia.net wrote:
>
>
>Tom,
> I can't address the problem with the SL-30. However, my GTX 320A uses the exact
same tray as your GTX 327. I used AN509-10 flush screws to mount my GTX 320A,
Icom A200 and RMI uMonitor. You are correct that the dimple in the tray of
the Garmin transponder does not allow the head of the screw to fit flush. However,
there is room to install the radio with the screw head protruding. The protruding
screw head actually acts as an internal shim, to steady the radio in
the tray.
> The Garmin tray was wider (thicker material) than my other 2 trays. I simply
made shims to compensate on the Icom and the uMonitor. I am very pleased with
the fit and cosmetics of my installation.
> I suspect that you will find your SL-30 fits between the installed screw heads.
If it doesn't, you could always dimple the tray mounting holes.
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
>
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