Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - WTB: RV7A Wing kit & Fuse or QB (Dave Johnson)
2. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (Chuck Jensen)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox (Larry Mac Donald)
4. 06:48 AM - Re: doors off? (Evan and Megan Johnson)
5. 07:04 AM - Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt (low pass)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox (glen matejcek)
7. 09:47 AM - Re: doors off? (Charlie England)
8. 09:57 AM - Re: Leaning on ground? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
9. 10:34 AM - Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel (Matthew Brandes)
10. 11:06 AM - Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel (HCRV6@comcast.net)
11. 11:22 AM - Re: Leaning on ground? (HCRV6@comcast.net)
12. 12:28 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel (Dale Ensing)
13. 01:04 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel (William Bergner)
14. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox (gordon or marge)
15. 04:24 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel (Ed Holyoke)
16. 06:45 PM - LSE Plugs... (Bill VonDane)
17. 07:06 PM - TBM (Wheeler North)
18. 07:15 PM - Re: LSE Plugs... (Dan Checkoway)
19. 07:52 PM - Re: TBM (gert)
20. 07:55 PM - Re: LSE Plugs... (Gerry Filby)
21. 08:24 PM - Re: LSE Plugs... (Ron Lee)
22. 10:03 PM - Re: doors off? (Bob Perkinson)
23. 10:37 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | WTB: RV7A Wing kit & Fuse or QB |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Johnson" <rv@discursion.com>
I'm ready to get rolling on the wings for my 7A. If anyone is thinking about shifting
gears and getting out, let's talk. I will consider a QB kit too, but am
trying to keep costs low for the airframe and I love the build process anyway.
E-mail me if you want to give your kit a good home. Looking for tip-up, if possible.
rv(at)discursion.com
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53579#53579
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
I suggest the responsibility lies with the Avenger's PIC, the fault is
shared by many parties.
Chuck Jensen
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Mac Donald <lm4@juno.com>
Rob,
That accident was Frank Pardue either not hearing or not
listening to the controllers and starting his take off roll with two
warbirds on the runway in front of him. He hit one of them with
enough energy to do a flaming cartwheel over the one he hit.
As to your second question. We are trying to protect our RV's,
and our butts, by looking at the small system, our RV's taxiing,
and the big system, heavy taxi traffic at OSH, and trying to make
some sense of it all.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4@juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not achcive
On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:17:35 -0700 "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca> writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> On 5:44:47 2006-08-08 "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> > My other observation regards the comment "However, it was a freak
> > accident..." Perhaps this was a first for OSH, but it's not
> really an
> > isolated event.
>
> Not at all. The event I related from Reno a few years back is
> another (Sea
> Fury meeting Lancair), but didn't a warbird overrun another warbird
> on
> takeoff a few years back at Oshkosh? I seem to recall one
> radial-engined
> warbird overrunning another after a miscommunication of takeoff
> procedure
> during a formation flight.
>
> But that being said, why are we discussing this on the RV-List?
>
> -Rob
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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Yipes!....this is not the experience I was hoping for. I think I had
better leave them on and see if I can find an ultralight to beg borrow
or steal.
Thanks for the advise..
Evan
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Perkinson
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: doors off?
No biting to it if you pull the power back, put full flaps down and
force both doors open (works better if there are two people in the
plane, the plane will literally fall flat out of the sky. Air speed
will drop drastically( may be because the static system reference is
screwed up because the doors are forced open) VSI falls out the bottom
and altimeter will verify this. Just make sure that you keep plenty for
forward pressure on the yoke, and give yourself plenty of altitude to
recover. You can also set up turns by using the doors at cruse speed,
although at slower speeds the airplane will exhibits sever adverse yaw.
When your young and foolish and have an airplane at your disposal and
extra time, you tend to push the envelop a little. Shortest take off
and landing contest were just about an every day event, Open doors will
help slow down a plane that is on the ground..Never did any damage to
the plane tko.
Bob Perkinson
Hendersonville, TN.
RV9 N658RP Reserved
If nothing changes
Nothing changes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of MLWynn@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:28 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: doors off?
In a message dated 8/7/2006 9:25:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bobperk@bellsouth.net writes:
do know that if you open both doors at the same time on a 150 with
the
flaps down you go down a whole lot faster than normal. You can
fall out of
the sky almost straight down, no forward air speed flat as a
pancake. I
know.
Alright, I'll bite.
How do you know this? Details?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV-8, Wings
San Ramon, California
Do Not Archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapboxt |
--> RV-List message posted by: "low pass" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote:
> I suggest the responsibility lies with the Avenger's PIC, the fault is
> shared by many parties.
>
> Chuck Jensen
Respectfully, IMO, you're half right. The responsibility lies with the PIC (of
the TBM) - period. The fault is not a consideration. All PIC's operating aircraft
chose to come to Oshkosh and accepted the finite amount of risk. True,
no death is acceptable, but there is in fact a certain number of accidents/incidents/collisions,
etc. that are either acceptable or unacceptable. Apparently,
one or two each year are acceptable. The show continues - for now. Doesn't
make the losses good or something we should not try very hard to prevent (e.g.,
this discussion). But to say no accidents will occur or none should be expected
in the plan is just not realistic. The goal should be to *minimize* risks.
Last comment with my turn, PLEASE don't advocate any more rules. After 20 yrs
of flying, I actually gain more respect for those rules (OSH and system wide)
the more I use them. If pilots would just do their #1 job of SEE AND AVOID, these
human error risks would be pushed to near zero.
I'll step away from the horse. Flame away.
Bryan
--------
Bryan -8
Houston
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53619#53619
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox |
--> RV-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi Rob-
>On 5:44:47 2006-08-08 "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> My other observation regards the comment "However, it was a freak
>> accident..." Perhaps this was a first for OSH, but it's not really an
>> isolated event.
>
>Not at all. The event I related from Reno a few years back is another (Sea
>Fury meeting Lancair), but didn't a warbird overrun another warbird on
>takeoff a few years back at Oshkosh? I seem to recall one radial-engined
>warbird overrunning another after a miscommunication of takeoff procedure
>during a formation flight.
>
>But that being said, why are we discussing this on the RV-List?
>
>-Rob
Well, for a couple of reasons. We lost a brother. That is of concern and
interest to us. We don't want this to happen again.
As to my post in particular, I was trying to not put too fine a point on it
and was perhaps a bit too successful. A lot of the previous commentary on
this list seemed to imply that, just as in the case you cited, the problem
is one of a large aircraft following a smaller one, and as such is perhaps
not a problem we need to concern ourselves with too much in our daily ops.
That is not the case. Size differential exacerbates the situation, but it
is not the cause. A lack of situational awareness (SA) is the cause. Had
the TBM known the RV was there, he would have stopped short. Had the RV
known the TBM was about to run him over, he'd have goosed it and run off
into the grass or some such. The biggest killer of GA pilots is continued
VFR into IMC. Same problem, lack of SA.
This leads directly to the next issue: rules. You can't regulate SA. All
you can do is pre-assess blame. Case in point: Barring other input from
ATC, after landing at a tower controlled airport, you are to clear the
runway ASAP but remain clear of the parallel taxiway. Unfortunately, the
taxiway is generally too close to the runway for an air carrier aircraft to
turn off and be clear of both the taxiway and the runway. The end result
is that if there is a conflict, the bureaucracy is protected and the PIC is
to blame. Do we really need more of that?
The better we are at policing ourselves, the less the feds will be inclined
to do so. And that is precisely what comes of these exchanges on our list.
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Remember that what Bob describes is very different from flying with the
doors *off*. Only a minimal relationship to what you were wanting to do.
Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
> Yipes!....this is not the experience I was hoping for. I think I had
> better leave them on and see if I can find an ultralight to beg borrow
> or steal.
> Thanks for the advise..
> Evan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Perkinson <mailto:bobperk@bellsouth.net>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:57 PM
> Subject: RE: RV-List: doors off?
>
> No biting to it if you pull the power back, put full flaps down
> and force both doors open (works better if there are two people in
> the plane, the plane will literally fall flat out of the sky. Air
> speed will drop drastically( may be because the static system
> reference is screwed up because the doors are forced open) VSI
> falls out the bottom and altimeter will verify this. Just make
> sure that you keep plenty for forward pressure on the yoke, and
> give yourself plenty of altitude to recover. You can also set
> up turns by using the doors at cruse speed, although at slower
> speeds the airplane will exhibits sever adverse yaw. When your
> young and foolish and have an airplane at your disposal and extra
> time, you tend to push the envelop a little. Shortest take off
> and landing contest were just about an every day event, Open
> doors will help slow down a plane that is on the ground..Never did
> any damage to the plane tko.
>
> Bob Perkinson
> Hendersonville, TN.
> RV9 N658RP Reserved
> If nothing changes
> Nothing changes
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> MLWynn@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:28 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: doors off?
>
> In a message dated 8/7/2006 9:25:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight
> Time, bobperk@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> do know that if you open both doors at the same time on a
> 150 with the
> flaps down you go down a whole lot faster than normal.
> You can fall out of
> the sky almost straight down, no forward air speed flat as
> a pancake. I
> know.
>
> Alright, I'll bite.
>
> How do you know this? Details?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Wynn
> RV-8, Wings
> San Ramon, California
>
> Do Not Archive
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Leaning on ground? |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/5/06 1:31:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
shempdowling2@earthlink.net writes:
> So whats a good technique for leaning on the ground.
>
> Shemp/Jeff Dowling
> RV-6A, N915JD
> 295 hours
> Chicago/Louisville
==============================
Shemp:
That depends on what instrumentation is in the plane. Simple answer, lean to
stumble and then RICH'N three clicks, or three turns or three-sixteenths of
an inch. All you are looking for is a leaner mixture to prevent the lead from
forming. Hell, we're EAA ... EXPERIMENT!
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 9
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| Subject: | Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel |
I'm curious to hear from anyone who has installed a vertical card compass in
an RV panel. My understanding is that they need to be mounted in a vertical
panel +/- 4 degress of tilt. I got a response from a vendor who said
"people are doing it" but that doesn't meet it works or works right. Anyone
out there have a VC Compass mounted in the panel and noticed any issues??
Matthew
N523RV :: RV-9A :: 109.3 hours
http://www.n523rv.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel |
Mine is mounted on the windshield brace tube (slider) and works fine. If you have
a tip up this won't be applicable to your situation.
--
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 250hours
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
> I'm curious to hear from anyone who has installed a vertical card compass in
> an RV panel. My understanding is that they need to be mounted in a vertical
> panel +/- 4 degress of tilt. I got a response from a vendor who said
> "people are doing it" but that doesn't meet it works or works right. Anyone
> out there have a VC Compass mounted in the panel and noticed any issues??
>
> Matthew
> N523RV :: RV-9A :: 109.3 hours
> http://www.n523rv.com
>
>
>
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
Subject: RV-List: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel
Content-Type: Multipart/alternative;
boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10402_1155146709_1"
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10402_1155146709_1
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html;
charset=us-ascii">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2873" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=580472717-09082006>I'm
curious to hear
from anyone who has installed a vertical card compass in an RV
panel. My
understanding is that they need to be mounted in a vertical panel +/- 4
degress
of tilt. I got a response from a vendor who said "people are doing
it" but
that doesn't meet it works or works right. Anyone out there have a
VC
Compass mounted in the panel and noticed any
issues??</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=580472717-09082006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=580472717-09082006>Matthew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=580472717-09082006>N523RV
::
RV-9A :: 109.3 hours </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=580472717-09082006><A
href="http://www.n523rv.com">http://www.n523rv.com</A></SPAN></FONT></D
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=580472717-09082006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10402_1155146709_1--
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Leaning on ground? |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@comcast.net
I've been leaning on the ground to where if I advance the throttle past about 1200
RPM the engine quits. Seems to work since I have no problem with lead fouling.
It's also pretty hard to take off if I forget to richen for T.O. (only
once, I swear).
--
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 250hours
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
> --> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 8/5/06 1:31:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> shempdowling2@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > So whats a good technique for leaning on the ground.
> >
> > Shemp/Jeff Dowling
> > RV-6A, N915JD
> > 295 hours
> > Chicago/Louisville
> ==============================
> Shemp:
>
> That depends on what instrumentation is in the plane. Simple answer, lean to
> stumble and then RICH'N three clicks, or three turns or three-sixteenths of
> an inch. All you are looking for is a leaner mixture to prevent the lead from
> forming. Hell, we're EAA ... EXPERIMENT!
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
> "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
> time."
> Yamashiada
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
I tried mounting one in the panel in the lower center of a "6 pack" where a
DG is typically placed. In this location it was badly affected by the other
instruments or maybe it was the avionics. I now have a electronic compass
there with a remote sensor and that works great.
Dale Ensing
----- > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
> > I'm curious to hear from anyone who has installed a vertical card
compass in
> > an RV panel. My understanding is that they need to be mounted in a
vertical
> > panel +/- 4 degress of tilt. I got a response from a vendor who said
> > "people are doing it" but that doesn't meet it works or works right.
Anyone
> > out there have a VC Compass mounted in the panel and noticed any
issues??
> >
> > Matthew
> > N523RV :: RV-9A :: 109.3 hours
> > http://www.n523rv.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "William Bergner" <bill@bergner.com>
I mounted a vertical card compass on a bracket on the bottom edge of the panel
and it works adequately there. When I had it in the panel it was very poor.
Bill
RV6
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel
> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 15:11:01 -0400
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
> I tried mounting one in the panel in the lower center of a "6 pack" where a
> DG is typically placed. In this location it was badly affected by the other
> instruments or maybe it was the avionics. I now have a electronic compass
> there with a remote sensor and that works great.
> Dale Ensing
>
> ----- > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
> > > I'm curious to hear from anyone who has installed a vertical card
> compass in
> > > an RV panel. My understanding is that they need to be mounted in a
> vertical
> > > panel +/- 4 degress of tilt. I got a response from a vendor who said
> > > "people are doing it" but that doesn't meet it works or works right.
> Anyone
> > > out there have a VC Compass mounted in the panel and noticed any
> issues??
> > >
> > > Matthew
> > > N523RV :: RV-9A :: 109.3 hours
> > > http://www.n523rv.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | RE: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox |
--> RV-List message posted by: "gordon or marge" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Mac Donald
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Oshkosh accident - Caution, on my Soapbox
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Mac Donald <lm4@juno.com>
Rob,
That accident was Frank Pardue either not hearing or not
listening to the controllers and starting his take off roll with two
warbirds on the runway in front of him. He hit one of them with
enough energy to do a flaming cartwheel over the one he hit.
As to your second question. We are trying to protect our RV's,
and our butts, by looking at the small system, our RV's taxiing,
and the big system, heavy taxi traffic at OSH, and trying to make
some sense of it all.
Larry Mac Donald
Larry: I believe it was Howard Pardue who was in the Bearcat that was hit.
He was one of a pair of F-8's that had taxied down the runway, pulled to the
sides (one on each side), turned toward the runway centerline and stopped,
awaiting further directions from the warbird airboss. Due to some mixup in
the signals, the two Corsairs started takeoff runs from the runway threshold
and did not see the motionless Bearcats until their tails were up. The
Corsair on the right(West side) was able to deviate the the right into the
grass and managed to avoid the Bearcat on the right albeit with considerable
crow hopping and grass flying. The Corsair on the left was unable to avoid
a collision with Pardue and was grievously injured in the horrific, firey
crash that followed. This was likely a communication error with all parties
doing as they believed they had been directed to do. The results were
devastating.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
Message 15
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| Subject: | Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
I put one on the glare shield in a tip-up and it's very good.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HCRV6@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel
Mine is mounted on the windshield brace tube (slider) and works fine.
If you have a tip up this won't be applicable to your situation.
--
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 250hours
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
> I'm curious to hear from anyone who has installed a vertical card
compass in
> an RV panel. My understanding is that they need to be mounted in a
vertical
> panel +/- 4 degress of tilt. I got a response from a vendor who said
> "people are doing it" but that doesn't meet it works or works right.
Anyone
> out there have a VC Compass mounted in the panel and noticed any
issues??
>
> Matthew
> N523RV :: RV-9A :: 109.3 hours
> http://www.n523rv.com
>
>
>
Message 16
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
What are you all using for plug with your LSE systems? They came with Denso
W24EMR-C plugs, but was wondering if anyone is using anything different...
Thanks...
-Bill VonDane
RV-8A ~ www.rv8a.com
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu>
Ed,
not a bad idea, ie. using what is called a "ramp" frequency. This is done at
some airshows like NWEAA in Arlington. We have used this for many years up
there, but then we only digest about 2000-2500 airplanes.
But Papa taxiway, as well as a few others is not completely visable from the
tower at the south end, and there is so much going on that it would be next
to impossible to radio control on one frequency with one controller. So then
you would have the pilots changing frequencies as they move to each area?
Me thinks that would be a riskier distraction.
Given where the two planes were and where they most likely came from, the RV
probably taxied out in front of the TBM while it was already well
established on Papa. This could have happened while the TBM pilot was
looking out his left side and he never saw the RV come out.
The fact that the RV pilot didn't see the TBM when he pulled out is the only
mistake I can see that was made in this event. What I have not yet been
clearly led to understand is did the RV pilot pull onto Papa on his own or
was he really marshalled.
If he was marshalled then, at least when I run intersections, the aircraft
on the taxiway gets stopped or slowed by hand and eye contact and the new
aircraft is entered into the flow. It's very obvious to all, "if I have the
time to make it so," that a new plane has been put on the taxiway.
One problem arises because our parking rows come out close to the taxiway,
where someone on the end could just start up and pull out (AKA it happens a
lot). If that happens than the accident is ripe to happen.(They are not
supposed to do this without an escort)
The other problem is when an intesection gets over congested. If any
landings are happening you have to keep part of it clear so the runway
remains free of stopped aircraft. As well you may be putting airplanes into
line from several different taxiways, of which most won't be going to the
same locations once they pass you.
So, were I to investigate this I would be asking how the RV got onto Papa
without the TBM being aware of it.
Jeff, did anyone ever find out where the RV came from, or if he just pulled
onto the taxiway without a marshaller either at an intesection or from the
grass? This isn't to single out a marshaller but rather to identify if there
even was one and if so what led to them escorting the RV on in a way that
didn't leave the TBM aware of it. In those details there might be some
tweeks that would promote more safety.
But even then, there's a manpower issue in that when I am working Papa 3
intersection I have airplanes coming at me from any one of 6 different
directions all at the same time. Plus, the runway must stay clear because
not only are planes landing and not pulling into the grass but rather
lagging down to the taxiway and they are being shot across from the east
runway 36/18 by the FAA pink shirts.
So if I push three of those landers/crossers then spin in one coming north
in the ditch taxiway and then a few from either direction of Papa I'm
generally not going to be able to ensure who is aware of what. And I'm not
sure a radio would help that any, particularly given the fact that the
landing or crossing aircraft would not be on "ramp" frequency yet. And I'm
already on a non-acft band radio talking to the other intersections letting
them know if something odd coming their way needs their attention.
As well both Papa two and Papa one are even more confusing to work. As I
remember the accident occured between the two just north of Papa two.
I stand my ground that this accident was just that, an accident, freaky and
somewhat unavoidable when placed upon the scales against Lady Luck's evil
sister.
Finally I would like to comment about one comment made in regards to a
collsion between an airliner and a cherokee. Not sure if that was
referencing the PSA accident in San Diego which is why the TCAs(now class B)
were formed. It was actually a 727 that took a hard right turn to a short
approrach while being handed off from NAS Miramar Approach to San Diego
Lindbergh approach/tower. It ran into a Cessna(182 if I remember right) on
an IFR missed approach that, in the 727's turn had gone completely across
the 27's windows and none of the four pilots in that cockpit ever saw it.
(Two were hopping a ride home and were standing in the back gangway when it
impacted) In the end they never knew what really went wrong.
The rapid hand off from one agency to another is why the two airplanes were
being controlled by differing controllers while in the same airspace until
the last second which is what led to joining all complex airspaces into
common units called TCAs.
In this case the only real change was a big one, but that change probably
did significantly reduce risks for those airports, so it was a good thing.
The bottom line is we come to Oshkosh because of all the airplanes but
because of all the airplanes the potential for a trajedy increases. These
are juxtopposed forces that in this case won't be fixed by anything other
than more awareness and diligence.
And if you think that's bizarre, try explaining to me why during one airshow
we had a yellow cub going down our Papa ditch taxiway being chased by a guy
in a green toga carrying a bucket full of gravel.
Weird stuff happens at Oshkosh... fortunately most of it isn't quite so
tragic.
W
PS, I doubt EAA will be sued, they carry very good insurance for this event
and in most cases establishing fault is avoided because it just raises an
overall cost dramatically that will be borne by the insurance industry one
way or another anyways. JT may correct me if I'm wrong but lawsuits don't do
much for anybody's bottom line these days.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: LSE Plugs... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
NGK BR8ES (#5422). As far as I can tell, they're identical to the Denso
W24EMR-C. The NGKs are cheap and readily available just about anywhere.
They're about $1.70 each from Rock Auto
(http://www.rvproject.com/pricewatch.html). There may be a cheaper source
on ebay if you buy in quantity.
Note that EMagAir recommends the same BR8ES plugs for use with P-Mags.
Fwiw, my IO-360-A1B6 / Lightspeed Plasma II has over 1000 hours on it with
this setup. These NGKs are workin' great, and I ain't changin' a thing...
I think they're actually snowmobile or personal watercraft plugs, but they
run great on an RV. ;-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1028 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 6:44 PM
Subject: RV-List: LSE Plugs...
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> What are you all using for plug with your LSE systems? They came with
> Denso
> W24EMR-C plugs, but was wondering if anyone is using anything different...
>
> Thanks...
> -Bill VonDane
> RV-8A ~ www.rv8a.com
>
>
>
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
The RV came out of RV land down Papa-1, taxiing east, then took a right
turn at the Northpoint intersection, (north end of 18-36 at the
warbird-trimotor crossroads), onto Papa, taxiing south to a center point
departure to the south, center point is the Tower road intersection with
Papa, the displaced 18 threshold.
When the RV took the right turn at Northpoint, the TBM was still in
warbird land. not a factor. That's why the rv pilot never knew the TBM
was behind him, The TBM simply was not there when he taxied by. So no
error on anybody's side here. The RV was escorted down Papa-1 as Papa-1
is narrow, fenced and partially open to public. At Northpoint, turning
onto Papa, the RV was flagged south. Papa is considerable wider and not
open to public, so the escort was terminated at Northpoint as is
customary. For those who were in RV land and/or homebuild camping and
seen Papa-1, we employ quite a few folks just to escort planes in and
out on just that short stretch of Papa-1.
likewise, when the TBM taxied past northpoint, the RV was far enough
ahead not to be an immediate taxi issue for the TBM. This was NOT a case
were the RV was on the side of Papa and was flagged or pulled right in
front of the TBM.
So now u know how the RV and the TBM came on Papa, without seeing each
other.
Wheeler North wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu>
>
> Ed,
>
> not a bad idea, ie. using what is called a "ramp" frequency. This is done at
> some airshows like NWEAA in Arlington. We have used this for many years up
> there, but then we only digest about 2000-2500 airplanes.
>
> But Papa taxiway, as well as a few others is not completely visable from the
> tower at the south end, and there is so much going on that it would be next
> to impossible to radio control on one frequency with one controller. So then
> you would have the pilots changing frequencies as they move to each area?
>
> Me thinks that would be a riskier distraction.
>
> Given where the two planes were and where they most likely came from, the RV
> probably taxied out in front of the TBM while it was already well
> established on Papa. This could have happened while the TBM pilot was
> looking out his left side and he never saw the RV come out.
>
> The fact that the RV pilot didn't see the TBM when he pulled out is the only
> mistake I can see that was made in this event. What I have not yet been
> clearly led to understand is did the RV pilot pull onto Papa on his own or
> was he really marshalled.
>
> If he was marshalled then, at least when I run intersections, the aircraft
> on the taxiway gets stopped or slowed by hand and eye contact and the new
> aircraft is entered into the flow. It's very obvious to all, "if I have the
> time to make it so," that a new plane has been put on the taxiway.
>
> One problem arises because our parking rows come out close to the taxiway,
> where someone on the end could just start up and pull out (AKA it happens a
> lot). If that happens than the accident is ripe to happen.(They are not
> supposed to do this without an escort)
>
> The other problem is when an intesection gets over congested. If any
> landings are happening you have to keep part of it clear so the runway
> remains free of stopped aircraft. As well you may be putting airplanes into
> line from several different taxiways, of which most won't be going to the
> same locations once they pass you.
>
> So, were I to investigate this I would be asking how the RV got onto Papa
> without the TBM being aware of it.
>
> Jeff, did anyone ever find out where the RV came from, or if he just pulled
> onto the taxiway without a marshaller either at an intesection or from the
> grass? This isn't to single out a marshaller but rather to identify if there
> even was one and if so what led to them escorting the RV on in a way that
> didn't leave the TBM aware of it. In those details there might be some
> tweeks that would promote more safety.
>
> But even then, there's a manpower issue in that when I am working Papa 3
> intersection I have airplanes coming at me from any one of 6 different
> directions all at the same time. Plus, the runway must stay clear because
> not only are planes landing and not pulling into the grass but rather
> lagging down to the taxiway and they are being shot across from the east
> runway 36/18 by the FAA pink shirts.
>
> So if I push three of those landers/crossers then spin in one coming north
> in the ditch taxiway and then a few from either direction of Papa I'm
> generally not going to be able to ensure who is aware of what. And I'm not
> sure a radio would help that any, particularly given the fact that the
> landing or crossing aircraft would not be on "ramp" frequency yet. And I'm
> already on a non-acft band radio talking to the other intersections letting
> them know if something odd coming their way needs their attention.
>
> As well both Papa two and Papa one are even more confusing to work. As I
> remember the accident occured between the two just north of Papa two.
>
> I stand my ground that this accident was just that, an accident, freaky and
> somewhat unavoidable when placed upon the scales against Lady Luck's evil
> sister.
>
> Finally I would like to comment about one comment made in regards to a
> collsion between an airliner and a cherokee. Not sure if that was
> referencing the PSA accident in San Diego which is why the TCAs(now class B)
> were formed. It was actually a 727 that took a hard right turn to a short
> approrach while being handed off from NAS Miramar Approach to San Diego
> Lindbergh approach/tower. It ran into a Cessna(182 if I remember right) on
> an IFR missed approach that, in the 727's turn had gone completely across
> the 27's windows and none of the four pilots in that cockpit ever saw it.
> (Two were hopping a ride home and were standing in the back gangway when it
> impacted) In the end they never knew what really went wrong.
>
> The rapid hand off from one agency to another is why the two airplanes were
> being controlled by differing controllers while in the same airspace until
> the last second which is what led to joining all complex airspaces into
> common units called TCAs.
>
> In this case the only real change was a big one, but that change probably
> did significantly reduce risks for those airports, so it was a good thing.
>
> The bottom line is we come to Oshkosh because of all the airplanes but
> because of all the airplanes the potential for a trajedy increases. These
> are juxtopposed forces that in this case won't be fixed by anything other
> than more awareness and diligence.
>
> And if you think that's bizarre, try explaining to me why during one airshow
> we had a yellow cub going down our Papa ditch taxiway being chased by a guy
> in a green toga carrying a bucket full of gravel.
>
> Weird stuff happens at Oshkosh... fortunately most of it isn't quite so
> tragic.
>
> W
>
> PS, I doubt EAA will be sued, they carry very good insurance for this event
> and in most cases establishing fault is avoided because it just raises an
> overall cost dramatically that will be borne by the insurance industry one
> way or another anyways. JT may correct me if I'm wrong but lawsuits don't do
> much for anybody's bottom line these days.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: LSE Plugs... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
:-))) BR8ES plugs were the plugs of choice for the Yamaha TY50
.. all 49 CCs of it ...
http://www.gerf.com/images/ty50.jpg
Can't believe you're suggesting put them in a 360 cubic inch
Lycoming, whatever next ... ;-)
(Yes 1973 ... a slightly younger design than a Lycoming ...)
g
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> NGK BR8ES (#5422). As far as I can tell, they're identical to
> the Denso
> W24EMR-C. The NGKs are cheap and readily available just about
> anywhere.
> They're about $1.70 each from Rock Auto
> (http://www.rvproject.com/pricewatch.html). There may be a
> cheaper source
> on ebay if you buy in quantity.
>
> Note that EMagAir recommends the same BR8ES plugs for use with P-Mags.
>
> Fwiw, my IO-360-A1B6 / Lightspeed Plasma II has over 1000 hours
> on it with
> this setup. These NGKs are workin' great, and I ain't changin'
> a thing...
> I think they're actually snowmobile or personal watercraft
> plugs, but they
> run great on an RV. ;-)
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (1028 hours)
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 6:44 PM
> Subject: RV-List: LSE Plugs...
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> >
> > What are you all using for plug with your LSE systems? They came with
> > Denso
> > W24EMR-C plugs, but was wondering if anyone is using anything different...
> >
> > Thanks...
> > -Bill VonDane
> > RV-8A ~ www.rv8a.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
__g__
==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: LSE Plugs... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>:-))) BR8ES plugs were the plugs of choice for the Yamaha TY50
>.. all 49 CCs of it ...
>
>http://www.gerf.com/images/ty50.jpg
>
>Can't believe you're suggesting put them in a 360 cubic inch
>Lycoming, whatever next ... ;-)
>
I believe that is what I have been using for hundreds of hours in my O-360
with LSE.
Ron Lee
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Perkinson" <bobperk@bellsouth.net>
Right Charlie. we were putting a lot of drag on the plane, and taking a lot
of air out from under the wing. I have flown with the doors off a Taylor
Craft BL 65 Lots of drag and about 10 mph slower, don't remember if it
effected the stall speed.
Bob Perkinson
Hendersonville, TN.
RV9 N658RP Reserved
If nothing changes
Nothing changes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: doors off?
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Remember that what Bob describes is very different from flying with the
doors *off*. Only a minimal relationship to what you were wanting to do.
Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
> Yipes!....this is not the experience I was hoping for. I think I had
> better leave them on and see if I can find an ultralight to beg borrow
> or steal.
> Thanks for the advise..
> Evan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Perkinson <mailto:bobperk@bellsouth.net>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 10:57 PM
> Subject: RE: RV-List: doors off?
>
> No biting to it if you pull the power back, put full flaps down
> and force both doors open (works better if there are two people in
> the plane, the plane will literally fall flat out of the sky. Air
> speed will drop drastically( may be because the static system
> reference is screwed up because the doors are forced open) VSI
> falls out the bottom and altimeter will verify this. Just make
> sure that you keep plenty for forward pressure on the yoke, and
> give yourself plenty of altitude to recover. You can also set
> up turns by using the doors at cruse speed, although at slower
> speeds the airplane will exhibits sever adverse yaw. When your
> young and foolish and have an airplane at your disposal and extra
> time, you tend to push the envelop a little. Shortest take off
> and landing contest were just about an every day event, Open
> doors will help slow down a plane that is on the ground..Never did
> any damage to the plane tko.
>
> Bob Perkinson
> Hendersonville, TN.
> RV9 N658RP Reserved
> If nothing changes
> Nothing changes
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> MLWynn@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:28 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: doors off?
>
> In a message dated 8/7/2006 9:25:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight
> Time, bobperk@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> do know that if you open both doors at the same time on a
> 150 with the
> flaps down you go down a whole lot faster than normal.
> You can fall out of
> the sky almost straight down, no forward air speed flat as
> a pancake. I
> know.
>
> Alright, I'll bite.
>
> How do you know this? Details?
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Wynn
> RV-8, Wings
> San Ramon, California
>
> Do Not Archive
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Vertical Card Compass in RV Panel |
In a message dated 08/09/2006 12:36:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
matthew@n523rv.com writes:
I'm curious to hear from anyone who has installed a vertical card compass in
an RV panel.
>>>>
Mine is TDC between A/S & Alt- PAI-700 and works great except I never look at
the stupid thing- GPS pretty much obsoletes it, but I DO do a cross-check
occasionally. Here's my location:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5256
>From The PossumWorks in TN,
Mark Phillips
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
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