---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/26/06: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:59 AM - Day 2 Trio Avionics Autopilot Install (Dana Overall) 2. 06:42 AM - Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (rveighta) 3. 07:18 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Bruce Gray) 4. 07:34 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Kevin Horton) 5. 09:05 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (J. R. Dial) 6. 10:39 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Jeff Point) 7. 10:55 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Kevin Horton) 8. 11:50 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (linn Walters) 9. 12:51 PM - Re: Day 2 Trio Avionics Autopilot Install (Dana Overall) 10. 01:24 PM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (mkejrj@comcast.net) 11. 02:43 PM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Ron Lee) 12. 04:03 PM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Terry Watson) 13. 04:04 PM - Final panel shots of Trio Install (Dana Overall) 14. 06:38 PM - More Hanger Cleaning (Steve & Denise) 15. 07:27 PM - First flight N176LD (JhnstnIII@aol.com) 16. 07:55 PM - Tire Wear (PeterHunt1@aol.com) 17. 07:57 PM - Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings (Charlie England) 18. 08:09 PM - Re: Tire Wear (Kyle Boatright) 19. 08:45 PM - Re: Tire Wear (RV6 Flyer) 20. 11:37 PM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings (Jerry Springer) 21. 11:39 PM - Re: Tire Wear (Jerry Springer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:40 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Day 2 Trio Avionics Autopilot Install --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" OK, gang. I had to take a little break yesterday and get some real work done (CPAing it) to pay th bills but I did get several hours of Trio Autopilot work in. I had to remove the panel to install the Dynon engine monitering system. This unit takes up a lot of space front and center so I needed to take care of that issue first. http://rvflying.tripod.com/id34.html See Thursday progess at http://rvflying.tripod.com/id33.html I still have 4.5 hours of install so far on the Trio Altitude hold servo install, Trio EZ Pilot head instal in the panel and wiring the panel to fire to the EZ pilot up. I should, by days end, have the altitude hold and vertical speed knob installed and, thanks to Steinair getting me my new altitude hold harness, have all the units fired up. Looking forward to todays pics. Should have the entire panel fired up with movie on the LCD screen.............for effect:-) Highly recommend (sorry Sam for borrowing your phrase) Trio Avionics and Steinair!!!! Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now! http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:44 AM PST US From: rveighta Subject: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs about 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the repair cost. Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:10 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" If you have an electronic ignition, your voltage drop when you engage the starter may be causing timing problems. If you have a standard magneto ignition system then you should check your impulse coupling and mag timing. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:41 AM Subject: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs about 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the repair cost. Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:47 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 26 Aug 2006, at 09:41, rveighta wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta > > All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the > engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a > Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. > > When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast > metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. > > Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second > time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for > repairs about > 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the > repair cost. What type of ignition system? I've heard of some electronic ignition systems that misbehave when the voltage goes low during start. The permanent magnet SkyTec starters apparently pull more current than some other starters, and thus drag the system voltage lower. Possible solutions, if this is the problem: 1. Leave the EI off until after start, 2. Ensure the EI is wired so it gets its power close to the battery. There will be a large voltage drop between the battery and the starter, and it would be bad to pull the EI power from a location that is subject to some or all of that voltage drop. 3. Reduce the resistance of the starter power feed (larger diameter cable, clean up connections etc). 4. Battery with more capacity and/or lower internal resistance so it provides higher voltage during starting. 5. Different starter. I've seen one report where going to a B&C starter stopped the kickback problem. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:56 AM PST US From: "J. R. Dial" Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that it was below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved. If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list. DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs about 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the repair cost. Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:06 AM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Walt, You are not the first person to experience this. My Stytec flyweight did the same thing on me at about 70 hours. Skytec likes to blame electronic ignitions for this problem, but the electronic ignition manufacturers have a different take on it. What ignition, battery and prop are you using? If you have a smaller battery (Odyssey, Panasonic) and a light prop (wood, composite) than you are set up for failure. Permanent magnet motors (like the Skytec) have much higher current draw than a wound-field motor. Combine the high current draw with the low current capabilities of a small battery and the lack of flywheel effect from a light prop, and you've set the stage for starting problems. In my case, a switch to a B&C wound field starter solved my problems. It spins the engine so fact I can almost get the tail up on starter power alone, Ok, not quite. In fairness, Skytec does sell a wound field starter as well, but I'm a big fan of B&C. There's plenty about this in the archives. Search on my name and "Skytec" around August 2004. Jeff Point RV-6 flying RV-8 preview plans Milwaukee > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:57 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Which electronic ignition system do you have? Do you have any idea what the voltage at the EI was dropping to? I'm interested, as I have a SkyTec starter, and an LSE Plasma II ignition. I haven't run the engine yet. The ignition gets its power from a bus connected directly to the battery. Kevin Horton On 26 Aug 2006, at 12:04, J. R. Dial wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" > > > I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the > permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that > it was > below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it > out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved. > If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list. > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:41 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 > > --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta > > All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the > engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a > Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. > > When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast > metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. > > Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second > time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs > about > 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the > repair cost. > > Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:16 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 --> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters Well Walt, you didn't give us much to go on, so I'll WAG this. The reason it kicked back is that the engine fired one plug (probably) 25 degrees before top dead center. That's 25 deg. BTDC. This normally happens when the ignition is wired with a ignition switch without a start position ..... using a separate pushbutton for the starter. The cure is to start the engine on the left mag (where the impulse mag usually is) and then turn on the right mag after starting. Folks never have a problem normally because their old bendix starter didn't swing the prop fast enough to get the right mag to fire .... but the dandy little replacements will do so with relative ease. Now, if you have an ignition switch with the start mode ...... better check your wiring. With this kind of switch in the start position, the right mag is still grounded .... or should be!!! Linn do not archive rveighta wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: rveighta > >All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the >engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a >Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. > >When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast >metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. > >Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second >time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs about >200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the >repair cost. > >Walt Shipley > > > > 3 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:05 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RE: RV-List: Day 2 Trio Avionics Autopilot Install --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" OK, here is the official DAY 2 of the Trio Install. I'm looking at 7 hours or actual autopilot install time. I'll post a fired up shot the panel later today.....off to get fuses. http://rvflying.tripod.com/id34.html Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Spaces is here! Its easy to create your own personal Web site. http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:11 PM PST US From: mkejrj@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 I spoke with Klaus @ OSH regarding the "kickback" potential of my LSE Plasma III installed on my Superior I0 360. I also have the SkyTek starter. Klaus issued a service bulletin ( 1/05 ) regarding "kickbacks".It notes that the PM starters draw very high current which drops the voltage available to the LSE ignition system. If the voltage drops below 8.5 volts the LSE is disabled and kickbacks can occur. The system needs at least 8.5 volts during the starting phase. LSE can modify your system if you return same to him. I believe the cost is about $ 100.00. The mod allows the LSE to operate as low as 6.5 volts. Dick Jordan N888BZ RV 8A/flying -------------- Original message -------------- From: Kevin Horton > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > Which electronic ignition system do you have? Do you have any idea > what the voltage at the EI was dropping to? > > I'm interested, as I have a SkyTec starter, and an LSE Plasma II > ignition. I haven't run the engine yet. The ignition gets its power > from a bus connected directly to the battery. > > Kevin Horton > > On 26 Aug 2006, at 12:04, J. R. Dial wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" > > > > > > I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the > > permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that > > it was > > below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it > > out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved. > > If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list. > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta > > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:41 AM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta > > > > All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the > > engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a > > Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. > > > > When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast > > metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear. > > > > Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs? This is the second > > time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs > > about > > 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the > > repair cost. > > > > Walt Shipley > > > > > >
I spoke with Klaus @ OSH regarding the "kickback" potential of my LSE Plasma III installed on my Superior I0 360. I also have the SkyTek starter.
 
Klaus issued a service bulletin ( 1/05 ) regarding "kickbacks".It notes that the PM starters draw very high current which drops the voltage available to the LSE ignition system. If the voltage drops below 8.5 volts the LSE is disabled and kickbacks can occur. The system needs at least 8.5 volts during the starting phase.
 
 
LSE can modify your system if you return same to him. I believe the cost is about $ 100.00. The mod allows the LSE to operate as low as 6.5  volts.
 
Dick Jordan
N888BZ RV 8A/flying
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>

> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
>
> Which electronic ignition system do you have? Do you have any idea
> what the voltage at the EI was dropping to?
>
> I'm interested, as I have a SkyTec starter, and an LSE Plasma II
> ignition. I haven't run the engine yet. The ignition gets its power
> from a bus connected directly to the battery.
>
> Kevin Horton
>
> On 26 Aug 2006, at 12:04, J. R. Dial wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial"
> >
> >
> > I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the
> > permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that
> > it was
> > below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it
> > out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved.
> > If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list.
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rveighta
> > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:41 AM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta
> >
> > All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the
> > engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a
> > Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS.
> >
> > When I =====
________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:50 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 >Klaus issued a service bulletin ( 1/05 ) regarding "kickbacks".It notes >that the PM starters draw very high current which drops the voltage >available to the LSE ignition system. If the voltage drops below 8.5 volts >the LSE is disabled and kickbacks can occur. The system needs at least 8.5 >volts during the starting phase. > I have a carbureted O-360, Aymar Demuth wood prop, LSE III ignition and Odyssey PC 680 battery. During one annual my A&P measured the voltage at several points during a short cranking cycle. There was a significant voltage drop (don't remember the number) so I went to a larger cable to the starter, changed to the correct starter solenoid and put in the PC 925 battery. I also think my starter is a Sky Tec LS something. Where before the prop would often stop on a compression stroke (assumption) it swings right through now. I had perhaps 700 hours on the previous deficient setup with no kickbacks. At least not one that caused any problem. I am not sure that I have even experienced a kickback. I may make the LSE voltage mod if I am down for something else in the future for additional protection. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:53 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 This is directly from Lightspeed Engineering's website today. Terry KICKBACKS Date of Issue: 01/2005 There are many possible reasons the engine can misfire during start. Several AD's have been issued over the years regarding impulse coupling problems on magnetos. Additionally, cold oil can prevent proper functioning of the impulse coupling. Cross firing in the distributor section of the mag can also be the cause for uncontrolled spark timing of the magneto. So if you still have a magneto on one side, be sure the mag is in good shape and up to date to avoid misfiring. Some time ago we received reports of kickbacks during start on airplanes with dual Plasma CD Ignitions. Extensive investigation showed that they were all using permanent magnet type starters. This type of starter typically draws much higher current than field wound starters. The installation manual for one of the main PM starter manufacturers advises that a 45% larger battery output is required! This, of course, eliminates any advertised weight savings but the bigger problem occurs when the engine owner is not aware of these requirements. If the battery is too small, the electrical system voltage can collapse when the starter tries to turn the engine over compression. This can temporarily disable the ignition system if the voltage drops to less than 8.5 volts. Other ignition systems go off line when the supply voltage drops below 10.3 volts. The Plasma CDI will operate safely down to about 5 volts once the engine is running but it needs 8.5 volts to start. The best way to prevent any problems is to install an appropriate size battery and cables to carry the actual load. If the electrical system is robust, the voltage dips during cranking should not go below 10 volts. This also keeps the Plasma CDI happy. To help avoid any kick backs that might be caused by low voltage of a compromised electrical system, we have made further improvements to the design that now allows the Plasma CDI to operate reliably down to 6.5 volts! The Plasma CDI's new extreme low voltage capability provides a larger safety margin (more time) in case of an alternator failure. It also allows starting by hand when the battery is too low to turn the starter. This modification to lower the minimum voltage even further will be incorporated into all Plasma CDI systems beginning spring 2005 and can be incorporated into older systems if requested. Systems having this modification are labeled "Version PMS" (this stands for "Permanent Magnet Starter", of course), "U3+" or "A" after the serial number. There have been no reports of kickbacks with the B&C starters, which are all wound field types and draw substantially less current. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:32 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Final panel shots of Trio Install --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" Trio is installed and the panel is back in and fired up across the board. I will cut it short and tell you to read my opinion on Trio Avionics and Steinair on my website, suffice to say, these two companies are, in my opinion, at the top of the totum pole. Thanks guys and all who sent private emails with opinions and questions on the install. It is certainly time to make airplane noises with the Trio and new Dynon fired up since Thursday afternoon. See the final product at http://rvflying.tripod.com/id35.html I know, black will be hot............thought I'd save your voice:-) Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Get the new Windows Live Messenger! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:28 PM PST US From: "Steve & Denise" Subject: RV-List: More Hanger Cleaning My new Rv-7A is airborne. 71629 my second 7A. IO-360 Mattituck and MT CS Prop, IFR. I have a few last items to clean out the hanger. Prices reduced. www.members.kingston.net/sjhdcl/rv_stuff_for_sale.htm do not archive Enjoy, Steve RV7A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:28 PM PST US From: JhnstnIII@aol.com Subject: RV-List: First flight N176LD Listers--My airplane partner David White and I have been on this list since Fall 1999 when we started our RV-6 project. Today she flew for the first time. Total build time was 6,000+ man hours over almost seven years. She's a semi-quick-build (quick-build fuselage, slow-build everything else) with the tall fin and counterbalanced rudder. She has a new 0-360 A1A and Hartzell blended airfoil CS prop (both from Van's) and regular magnetos. Equipment includes S-Tec 30 two-axis autopilot, standby electric attitude indicator, Gretz heated pitot and alternate static, VM 1000 engine monitor, Garmin 430 with GPSS steering, dual brakes. All antennas are external. We intend to fly her IFR. Paint is Imron three colors (painted at home). Empty weight is 1149 lbs at station 71. Mods include oil cooler on firewall with homemade fiberglass intake shroud, servo- operated landing light tilt in right wing, Meske (Aircraft Extras.com) tip-up/slider mod, Meske (Aircraft Extras.com) optical low fuel warning lights, tailwheel fairing.. We would like to thank Rich Meske, engineer extraordinaire, and Daryl Green, RV craftsman extraordinaire, for all their help and advice, and our tech counselor Jim Baldwin, and our supportive spouses and sweethearts, without whom this project could not have been completed. Flew her today without gear fairings for engine break-in. No heavy wing, she flies straight with a little right rudder. Looks like we will need to add that rudder tab. A few weeks ago we did six hours of dual with Alex De Dominicis (RVtraining.com) and highly recommend this to those about to take their first flights. We have learned a lot from this list and want to thank all who have contributed their thoughts over the years. Her name is Esperanza. For those still building, keep pounding those rivets! It's worth it! LeRoy Johnston and David White in Ohio. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:20 PM PST US From: PeterHunt1@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Tire Wear Over time, do RV main tires wear more on the outside or the inside treads? Pete RV-6, 123 hours. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:33 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: RV-List: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Rant mode on; drinkers of the 'Van's can do no wrong' koolaid, please stop & delete now. Several weeks (months?) ago I built up all the fuselage bulkheads including the main spar carry-thru for my -7 kit. I carefully followed all the directions/drawing indications I could find, especially on the spar carrythru bulkhead. I noted & carefully followed the exploded views on dwg 11 (rev 10-16-00) & later, dwg 22 (rev 10-27-00) showing the bolts for the F633 L&R control brackets & all the F716 seat ribs with the heads to the rear, threads forward. I built up the tail cone. I completed the prep work for final assy of the midsection. I began the riveting of the midsection several days ago & today, neared completion of the riveting. While studying dwg 22 section views to determine the orientation of the bolts through the F715 seat ribs, I noticed that they show nuts on the rib flange of all the F716 seat ribs where they bolt to the F704 spar carry-thru. 'Curses; must have not been paying attention when I bolted this stuff together.' (Bad medium term memory of earlier careful study of plans.) Out came the wrenches, re-oriented all the F716 bolts, retorqued. Happened to glance at the exploded view on the same dwg. All rib bolts drawn with head on the rib flange. I checked dwg 11 exploded view for the F633 bolts; it's inconsistent with the section view on dwg 22 also. Errors/inconsistencies #742 & 743 (guesstimate :-) ) noted in the plans and/or instructions. By the way, this same section in the instructions tells you to cleco in & drill the seat & baggage floors without telling you to install the baggage ribs at all & before they mention installing the F715 seat ribs, which must be curved by the builder, have centerlines drawn on their bottom flanges (not prepunched), & be match drilled to the belly skin. My revision of dwg shows the control stick walking beam assy to the spar with bolts oriented in a fashion that cannot be achieved under the current laws of physics. When I called about that, the tech guy had different orientation for some of the bolts, on his dwg with the same revision date. Excuse: 'Well, sometimes minor changes are made without changing the rev date/number.' His 1st suggested change also could not be achieved under the current laws of physics. The final result was basically, 'assemble it however you can to get it to work.' I've lost count of the number of times I've called the tech guys at Van's to politely question or point out this kind of stuff & asked repeatedly why they don't offer a section of the website with corrections & updates. They are usually courteous, but I invariably get various lame excuses like 'you should read ahead', you should know how it's done', 'well, when we built the prototype, we didn't have the instructions', etc etc etc. Sometimes they say they will bring up the issue 'at a staff meeting' but rarely if ever do they act like the issues are any big deal. Never is there any feedback or encouragement to continue reporting this stuff & with a single exception (defective AL bar stock) never an admission that others have had the same issue. Ok, rant mode off. Question: should I care which way the F716 bolts are oriented (currently head forward, nut/washer on rib) or the F633 bolts (currently head on F633)? The belly skin rivets under the F716 bolts will be less convenient to drive, but still 'doable'. Suggestion: We all take advantage of Matt's wiki to add a section for each model & sub sections for each assy or part that we have problems understanding or that are obvious errors/inconsistencies. The entries should document the plan revision date and/or the instruction revision date. This should help us all by consolidating records of problem areas, something Van's is obviously unwilling to do. Is this a worthwhile suggestion? (Again, koolaid drinkers please don't reply.) Thanks, Charlie ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:19 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tire Wear I'm sure it varies from aircraft to aircraft. On my RV-6, I get more wear on the outside of the tires, because I typically fly at lighter weights, which doesn't flex the gear as much and causes.... wear on the outside of the tire. Someone who operates a heavy aircraft will flex the gear more, and will have more wear towards the inside of the tire. My biggest wear area is on the right tire, because I still have not learned how to keep from occasionally dragging the right brake on takeoff. KB ----- Original Message ----- From: PeterHunt1@aol.com To: rv-list-digest@matronics.com ; RV6-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 10:54 PM Subject: RV-List: Tire Wear Over time, do RV main tires wear more on the outside or the inside treads? Pete RV-6, 123 hours. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:08 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Tire Wear --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" Pete: Yes they wear more on the outside. Left tire wears the most on the outside. (P-factor and need for right rudder on full power takeoff) Rotate tires when 1/2 worn out to get the most landing out of your tires. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,936 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: PeterHunt1@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Tire Wear Over time, do RV main tires wear more on the outside or the inside treads? Pete RV-6, 123 hours. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:32 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Charlie England wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England > > Rant mode on; drinkers of the 'Van's can do no wrong' koolaid, please > stop & delete now. > > > Suggestion: > > We all take advantage of Matt's wiki to add a section for each model & > sub sections for each assy or part that we have problems understanding > or that are obvious errors/inconsistencies. The entries should > document the plan revision date and/or the instruction revision date. > This should help us all by consolidating records of problem areas, > something Van's is obviously unwilling to do. > > Is this a worthwhile suggestion? > > (Again, koolaid drinkers please don't reply.) > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > Dose not make a bit of difference which way the bolts are oriented, I know that there are always going to be people that say down and back, but if torqued and tightned correctly they won't come off. As Vans say do it which ever way works for you, ( does that make me a koolaid drinker?) Wiki might be a good idea, but it seems like what is a problem for some is not a problem for others. Jerry(mined the raw materials to build my RV-6) :-) do not archive PS I did build a airplane one time and flew it for 500 hours, the drawings were drawn on napkins at the local coffee shop. PSS Van does not do to much wrong when it comes to the RV's. :-) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:21 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Tire Wear --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer RV6 Flyer wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" > > Pete: > > Yes they wear more on the outside. > > Left tire wears the most on the outside. (P-factor and need for > right rudder on full power takeoff) > > Rotate tires when 1/2 worn out to get the most landing out of your tires. > > Gary A. Sobek > "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, > 1,936 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA > http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: PeterHunt1@aol.com > To: rv-list-digest@matronics.com, RV6-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Tire Wear > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:54:28 EDT > > Over time, do RV main tires wear more on the outside or the inside > treads? > > Pete > RV-6, 123 hours. > > Mine wear most on the inside, I am sure that it is because the gear is not aligned as it should be, I do go through tires much faster than I like. Jerry do not archive