Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:39 AM - Davd Clark X-11 headset review? (Jim Jewell)
2. 01:35 AM - Re: Cylinders: ECI vs Superior or Others (RV6 Flyer)
3. 01:45 AM - Re: Kick Back - More Info (Charles Reiche)
4. 05:36 AM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings (Jack Fromm)
5. 06:45 AM - Re: Kick Back - More Info (Bruce Gray)
6. 06:47 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (DAVID REEL)
7. 07:03 AM - Re: Weight & Balance (Denis Walsh)
8. 07:25 AM - intersection fairings... (Bill VonDane)
9. 07:47 AM - Re: intersection fairings... (Tailgummer@aol.com)
10. 08:24 AM - Re: intersection fairings... (Dale Ensing)
11. 09:00 AM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in ()
12. 09:41 AM - Re: intersection fairings... (Bill VonDane)
13. 09:43 AM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Bob Collins)
14. 10:39 AM - Re: intersection fairings... (Ron Lee)
15. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Ron Lee)
16. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Bob Collins)
17. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Bob Collins)
18. 02:01 PM - First Flight N95BF (Bryan Flood)
19. 04:42 PM - Anyone have anymore information about this? (Terry Williams)
20. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Bob)
21. 05:22 PM - Re: Anyone have anymore information about this? (Cory Emberson)
22. 05:32 PM - Re: Anyone have anymore information about this? (Darrell Reiley)
23. 06:21 PM - RV6 down in Petaluma (Parker Thomas)
24. 08:18 PM - Re: RV6 down in Petaluma (Paul Besing)
25. 08:29 PM - Re: Kick Back - More Info (Paul Besing)
26. 08:45 PM - Re: RV6 down in Petaluma (Rob Prior (rv7))
27. 09:33 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Chris W)
28. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (HCRV6@comcast.net)
29. 10:54 PM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings (Richard Crosley)
30. 11:04 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Jerry Springer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Davd Clark X-11 headset review? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hello listers,
The David Clark Co. Inc. website offers what apears to be a new headset
called X 11.
The promo on the website looks good
I have not heard or found any other reports pro or can about this product.
Would anyone care to offer opinions based on actual use?
Jim in Kelowna - final inspection soon
Message 2
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| Subject: | Cylinders: ECI vs Superior or Others |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
8 years 11 months.
6 hours / quart now.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,938 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
----Original Message Follows----
From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Cylinders: ECI vs Superior or Others
--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Gary,
Thanks for the info. How many years to accumulate the
hours? What's your oil consumption now?
-D-
--- RV6 Flyer <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer"
> <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
>
> Darrell:
>
> I am particial to the Superior Investment Cast
> Millineum cylinders. I have
> S/N: 8, 9, 10, and 11 installed on my airplane.
> They are match flowed and
> have 10:1 NFS pistons. Check the hours. Plan to
> take the cylinders off
> when oil consumption gets high or compression gets
> low. Could be within the
> next 1 months. I will have the cylinders inspected.
> If they have no
> CRACKS, they may be rebuilt will all new parts and
> reinstalled or bored
> 0.010 over and rebuilt. I have budget for NEW
> cylinders and may go that way
> if the rebuild approaches 70% of the new cost.
>
> Gary A. Sobek
> "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
> 1,936 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
> To: RV-List <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Cylinders: ECI vs Superior or
> Others
> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:54:55 -0700 (PDT)
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley
> <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
> I'm looking for decision support To all the Engine
> Gurus and Roll your own engine builders out there,
> which is the cylinder kit to by in todays market.
> So
> many things are changing. It seems like everyday
> products are being improved and or modified in some
> way. I will not be going with standard compression
> pistons and have not settled on the type of pistons
> or
> the ratio yet. I would like to discuss overall
> quality, casting, manufacturing methods etc... Which
> will require a port clean up? Who's cleaned up their
> fins from casing issues? Is anyone using a cryogenic
> process on wear parts? Etc... Any information or
> advice is appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance!
> __________________
>
>
> Darrell Reiley
> RV7A "Reiley Rocket"
> N622DR Reserved
>
> CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kick Back - More Info |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charles Reiche <charlieray@optonline.net>
Why would you want to do this if the mag has the impulse coupling? You
might as well use an non IC mag for that. Does the electronic ign have an
option for retard timing?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> No, you want to start the engine with the EI ON and the mag OFF.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:05 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> I'm very close to wiring my plane and would like to know how to wire the
> ignition key switch. I have an AeroSport IO360 with one "mag", and one
> Lightspeed Electronic Ignition. It seems that the forum is suggesting
> that
> I wire the key switch so that in the "start" position only the Mag is
> firing, but upon releasing the key switch from start to both, that then
> both
>
> the mag and the Lightspeed are firing. Is this correct?
>
> Garry Stout
> RV7A Odessa Fl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>>
>> rveighta wrote:
>>
>>>Sound like a impulse coupler problem?
>>>
>> No, it sounds like the non-impulse coupled mag is firing before TDC (like
>> it should) during starting. The purpose of the IC is to slow the mag
>> down
>
>> so it fires right at TDC during the starting process. When the engine is
>> running, there is enough speed and inertia that firing at 28 BTDC is
>> desireable. Duirng starting, when the engine is running so slowly, if
>> the
>
>> non-IC mag fires at 28 BDTC, it is likely to cause a kickback.
>>
>> Try leaving the non-IC mag off during starting. If you have a keyswitch,
>> make sure it's wired properly to ground (turn off) the non-IC mag at the
>> START position.
>>
>> Jeff Point
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Fromm" <jfromm1@hotmail.com>
Well said, Paul. My sentiments exactly. Now for an anecdote...
About a year and a half ago, my EAA chapter held a sheet metal assembly
workshop using the old Van's flap project. Before the workshop, all of us
"instructors" got together to put one of the projects together to
familiarize ourselves with it so we wouldn't make fools of ourselves when we
actually went to teach it. Good thing, too. During this familiarization, I
found at least three problems with the one-page instruction/drawing sheet
that came with the project! One was a nutplate part number callout where
the drawing disagreed with the instructions, the other showed one of the end
ribs facing the wrong way and finally, a couple of steps in the instructions
were out of sequence. I could have sworn Van did this intentionally. It
must be his way of preparing us for all the problems we would encounter with
the real plans. Seeing this, I suggested to my fellow instructors that we
begin the workshop by having the students take a half-hour to read ahead,
just like Van's suggests in the real plans, to see who could spot the three
problems and that we award a door prize to the winner(s). They didn't take
my suggestion either. :-(
Jack Fromm
RV-8 81120 Flying
> --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Trotter <ptrotter@acm.org>
>
> In general, I think that Van's has designed excellent aircraft and their
> kits are great. But in some respects the instructions could be a little
> better. Yes, we should be able to extrapolate from the drawings and
> instructions to figure out what we should be doing, but when there are
> specific instructions or drawings for an operation, we should be able to
> rely on them. It is not that the instructions need to be expanded, it is
> that those that are there should be correct. Any incorrect or
contradictory
> instructions should be fixed. This is not hard, as I'm sure that Van's
has
> been apprised of the errors by many people. Also, we should not have to
> worry about following the instructions and doing something only to find
out
> later that something else should have been done first. Reading ahead in
the
> instructions is a good idea, but they should be in the proper order
anyway.
> I'm having a great time building my 8, but sometimes it is frustrating
> trying to figure out what to do when the instructions and drawing are
> unclear or contradict each other.
>
> The instructions that are provided, at whatever level of detail that Van's
> feels are necessary, should be accurate. It would take very little effort
> to create a section on their website with corrections to the instructions
> and drawings. For anything beyond that, I feel that these forums and
email
> lists are a great resource.
>
> Paul Trotter
> RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kick Back - More Info |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
All EI systems I've seen have a retard mechanism for starting. One of the
main benefits of an EI is it's supposed ease of starting.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Reiche
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
--> RV-List message posted by: Charles Reiche <charlieray@optonline.net>
Why would you want to do this if the mag has the impulse coupling? You
might as well use an non IC mag for that. Does the electronic ign have an
option for retard timing?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> No, you want to start the engine with the EI ON and the mag OFF.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:05 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> I'm very close to wiring my plane and would like to know how to wire the
> ignition key switch. I have an AeroSport IO360 with one "mag", and one
> Lightspeed Electronic Ignition. It seems that the forum is suggesting
> that
> I wire the key switch so that in the "start" position only the Mag is
> firing, but upon releasing the key switch from start to both, that then
> both
>
> the mag and the Lightspeed are firing. Is this correct?
>
> Garry Stout
> RV7A Odessa Fl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>>
>> rveighta wrote:
>>
>>>Sound like a impulse coupler problem?
>>>
>> No, it sounds like the non-impulse coupled mag is firing before TDC (like
>> it should) during starting. The purpose of the IC is to slow the mag
>> down
>
>> so it fires right at TDC during the starting process. When the engine is
>> running, there is enough speed and inertia that firing at 28 BTDC is
>> desireable. Duirng starting, when the engine is running so slowly, if
>> the
>
>> non-IC mag fires at 28 BDTC, it is likely to cause a kickback.
>>
>> Try leaving the non-IC mag off during starting. If you have a keyswitch,
>> make sure it's wired properly to ground (turn off) the non-IC mag at the
>> START position.
>>
>> Jeff Point
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
When I reweighed my 8A, I drained the fuel tanks by pumping fuel into cans
through a hose connected in place of the carb fuel inlet using the auxiliary
electric fuel pump. This insured the correct amount of unusable fuel
remained in the tanks and eliminated the uncertainty over exactly how much
fuel was in the tanks. If I was off by 1 gallon, 6lb, that would translate
into a moment of 480 for a CG position error of +/- 6 tenths of a percent in
CG location given the empty moment of my airplane, 84575. Not a very big
error as errors go. Still, it made me uncomfortable enough that I took the
slightly harder route of emptying the tanks.
There were two additional benefits to this approach: I could calibrate a
dip stick for measuring usable fuel by refilling the empty tanks in two
gallon increments, and, by raising the gas can above the fuel tank level, I
could look at my see through fuel filter during the pump out operation to
see if the fuel system was sucking any air.
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Weight & Balance |
--> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
An excellent tip. Thank you.
Such sharing of good building tips is becoming very rare on this
list, so forgive me for further clogging it.
No not archive.
Denis Walsh
On Aug 28, 2006, at 07:49 281700008, DAVID REEL wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> When I reweighed my 8A, I drained the fuel tanks by pumping fuel
> into cans
> through a hose connected in place of the carb fuel inlet using the
> auxiliary
> electric fuel pump. This insured the correct amount of unusable fuel
> remained in the tanks and eliminated the uncertainty over exactly
> how much
> fuel was in the tanks. If I was off by 1 gallon, 6lb, that would
> translate
> into a moment of 480 for a CG position error of +/- 6 tenths of a
> percent in
> CG location given the empty moment of my airplane, 84575. Not a
> very big
> error as errors go. Still, it made me uncomfortable enough that I
> took the
> slightly harder route of emptying the tanks.
>
> There were two additional benefits to this approach: I could
> calibrate a
> dip stick for measuring usable fuel by refilling the empty tanks in
> two
> gallon increments, and, by raising the gas can above the fuel tank
> level, I
> could look at my see through fuel filter during the pump out
> operation to
> see if the fuel system was sucking any air.
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | intersection fairings... |
Hey all... I bought a set of intersection fairings from Fairings, Etc.,
and am looking for ideas on how to attach them at the top...
I think I am going to make the fairings part of the gear leg fairing at
the top and attach it to the fuse, and make the lower fairings part of
the wheel pants...
Any suggestions and photos would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks!
-Bill
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: intersection fairings... |
Hi Bill!
I also bought a set of upper and lower intersection fairings for my 8, but
had to EXTENSIVELY modify them for proper fit. The lower fairings are
attached (epoxy/micro bonded) to the pants. The upper fairings fit snugly over
the gear leg fairing and are attached to my fuselage with two nut plates fwd
and one rivnut on the aft. They are quite solid.
I'm not sure if this will work for an 8A, but if you'd like I'll take some
photos and send them to you.
John D'Onofrio
N585JD (_Tailgummer@aol.com_ (mailto:Tailgummer@aol.com) )
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: intersection fairings... |
Bill,
Don't remember which aircraft you have. Do you have the two piece
aluminum gear leg fairings or the one piece fiberglas?
I have the one piece fiberglass main gear leg fairing on 6A. The main
gear top intersection fairings are attached to the fuse at the top and
not attached to the gear leg fairing. There is considerable movement
between the gear leg fairing and the top intersection fairing when the
main gear flexes.
Same is true for the bottom. Need to keep some movement possible.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill VonDane
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: RV-List: intersection fairings...
Hey all... I bought a set of intersection fairings from Fairings,
Etc., and am looking for ideas on how to attach them at the top...
I think I am going to make the fairings part of the gear leg fairing
at the top and attach it to the fuse, and make the lower fairings part
of the wheel pants...
Any suggestions and photos would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks!
-Bill
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
I am with you Jerry, some have more problems than others.
On the other hand I have little sympathy for those building pre-punched
CAD drawing RV's. I built RV's in the 80's with the hand drawn "blue prints"
and typewriter instructions, and oh yes no pre-punch or pre-drilled anything.
Would you like some cheese and cracker's with your whine!
Most mistakes are made by the builder. If the only mistake you make
is because of a drawing error you are better than I. Building a RV-7
now and it's a dream.
George M. (Beer drinker)
Waaaa, building is hard. Waaaa :-( I made a mistake... waaaa.
It's not good enough you get a kit plane that is a Bargain, performs
so well.
Some people are never happy unless they are unhappy, Waaaaaa.
Whine-er's need not reply :-)
>From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>
>>FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> ceengland@bellsouth.net writes:
>>
>> Is this a worthwhile suggestion?
>>
>> (Again, koolaid drinkers please don't reply.)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>> =======================================
>> It sure is Charlie!
>>
>> As one person said: "PSS Van does not do to much wrong when it comes
> to the RV's. :-)"
>
>That would be me as I am the only person that had responded. .. In the
>20+ years I have been building and
>flying RVs it seem like there are always a few people that have
>constant problems and complaints. On the
>the other hand there are several thousand RVs being built where the
>builders do not have problems. I guess I
>will stop here before getting into a nasty slug fest. I would have let
>it go if it had not been for the koolaid
>comment. Have you ever considered the koolaid drinkers are very happy
>builders and flyers?
do not archive
---------------------------------
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: intersection fairings... |
sorry, i have an rv-8a
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill VonDane
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 8:24 AM
Subject: RV-List: intersection fairings...
Hey all... I bought a set of intersection fairings from Fairings, Etc.,
and am looking for ideas on how to attach them at the top...
I think I am going to make the fairings part of the gear leg fairing at
the top and attach it to the fuse, and make the lower fairings part of
the wheel pants...
Any suggestions and photos would be greatly appreciated...
Thanks!
-Bill
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
At the risk of bringing some maturity (g) to the discussion, I think it's important
to recognize that everyone is different and one size doesn't necessarily
fit all. We all learn differently. We all interpret differently. There is no
"right" way or "wrong" way. There's only a different way and if we're smart enough
to build airplanes, aren't we smart enough to stay clear of pointless debate
about the people doing the learning?
It's true that the folks who built off the plans were real good builders, but a
plans-only model wouldn't have kept Van's in business because few people actually
could do that. On the other side of the coin, this is a friggin' big airplane,
not a Lego kit. Under the 51% rule, we're supposed to get educated. It's
just that sometimes the process of education collides head-on with the recreation
part.
The other thing to remember is that the instructions/plans method was deployed
before something like builders groups on the Internet came along and, frankly,
sites like Dan Checkoway's are becoming the defacto instruction manual for a
lot of people who like to SEE stuff put together. Then you have the Orndorff
videos. And this list, and other lists, and newsletters. When you really think
about it, building for many people is not "I built just off the plans," it's
"I built off the plans, the manual, the Web sites, the videos, and the user groups."
Debating whether people should just build off the plans is a moot point except
for those who just want to have a good online feud. Even Van's recognizes they
shouldn't or else they wouldn't have taken such a huge step forward with the
RV-10 plans. How did they get to that improvement? Someone must've pointed out
that there was a better way. Good for them. Good for us. I'm guessing they also
did it without characterizing the company as inordinately inferior.
So just one more plea before I have to start setting up another stinkin' Rules
Wizard on Outlook:
If we could just bend over backwards to consider other obvious improvements that
could be made in this process without giving in to the temptation to use the
thread for another worthless "I'm better than you are" stage, that'd go a long
way toward making this week's building process even better at my house.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58009#58009
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: intersection fairings... |
At 08:24 AM 8/28/2006, you wrote:
>Hey all... I bought a set of intersection fairings from Fairings, Etc.,
>and am looking for ideas on how to attach them at the top...
>
>I think I am going to make the fairings part of the gear leg fairing at
>the top and attach it to the fuse, and make the lower fairings part of the
>wheel pants...
You have beaucoup resources at 00V Bill. I suspect that if you attach
the upper fairings at two points then gear leg movement may cause
something to crack (fiberglass part).
The lower attachment method I believe was done by Wolfie next door
to where you used to hanger your airplane.
Ron Lee
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
At 09:57 AM 8/28/2006, you wrote:
>I am with you Jerry, some have more problems than others.
>
>On the other hand I have little sympathy for those building pre-punched
>CAD drawing RV's. I built RV's in the 80's with the hand drawn "blue prints"
>and typewriter instructions, and oh yes no pre-punch or pre-drilled anything.
>
>Would you like some cheese and cracker's with your whine!
>
>Most mistakes are made by the builder. If the only mistake you make
>is because of a drawing error you are better than I. Building a RV-7
>now and it's a dream.
>
>George M. (Beer drinker)
>
>Waaaa, building is hard. Waaaa :-( I made a mistake... waaaa.
>
>It's not good enough you get a kit plane that is a Bargain, performs
>so well.
>
>Some people are never happy unless they are unhappy, Waaaaaa.
>Whine-er's need not reply :-)
George, you have a great track record of providing insightful information
BUT (here it comes) I don't agree with you here. It sounds like there
are errors that should and could be corrected but Vans won't do it.
If my assessment is correct then Vans should strive for perection.
With things on computers and easily changed it does not make
sense to allow known mistakes to stay uncorrected.
Ron Lee
Do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
> It sounds like there are errors that should and could be
> corrected.
I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod
between the two control yokes is too short. That strikes me as kind of an
important connection, and there's not enough threads to get threadlocker on
there, or even the torque seal goop. Change to 3-11A. Might also be the
case for the bolt connecting the aileron pushrods to the stick. I've added
it to the database.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
OH, I should have mentioned that this applies for those using manual aileron
trim. That steel tab that connects the spring and the yoke adds the
thickness that makes the 10A too short.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:20 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins"
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
> > It sounds like there are errors that should and could be
> > corrected.
>
> I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the
> pushrod between the two control yokes is too short. That
> strikes me as kind of an important connection, and there's
> not enough threads to get threadlocker on there, or even the
> torque seal goop. Change to 3-11A. Might also be the case
> for the bolt connecting the aileron pushrods to the stick.
> I've added it to the database.
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | First Flight N95BF |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bryan Flood" <bryanflood@hotmail.com>
Hi,
Well after almost 6 years of building another RV has flown
and returned to earth safely. The first flight of my RV-9A occurred
last Friday night about 6 pm lasted a hour. The flight was nearly
perfect, except I landed slightly on the brakes, which seem to be
working quite well. Anyway, for the record I wanted to say how
valuable I found transition training to be. I did transition
training with Dan Cunningham in Decatur Alabama in his RV-9A. First
off Dan was great. I had to get 5 hours for insurance but only had
one day to fly. Dan really worked hard to make sure I got all the
time I needed, which involved taking several breaks and going for a
nice lunch. I was pretty tired after that big day of flying, but
what a difference it made in my ability to handle the airplane. When
I took off on the first flight of my plane the training proved
invaluable. At no point during the first flight did I have to
question my ability to land b/c I had already landed Dan's plane a
bunch of times. The pressure was completely off. I thought the first
flight would be shear terror, but it wasn't. About 2 seconds after
the plane lifted off the ground and was clearly controllable the
rest of the flight was a pure joy. I really do contribute this to
training, having experience in the type was everything for me.
Before the first flight I reasoned that if the plane would perform
flawlessly on the first flight I could probably take the flight w/o
transition training. You know spend time feeling it out, slowly
finding the stall buffet, estimating an approach speed and what not.
As it turns out the first flight was flawless, and I did get to the
stall buffet and found that the numbers were exactly the same as
Dan's plane. So I knew all the information I needed before I even
took off. That was very reassuring, but in the case of an emergency
it would have been invaluable. If everything hadn't gone exactly
perfect it occurs to me that I would not only had an idea of the
emergency procedures but actually had done them. Again training with
Dan was probably one of the best decisions I made during the whole
project. I would highly recommend Dan Cunningham's training,
especially if you have an RV-9A and want to get time in the model.
Dectaur Alabama is a nice town, the airport is nice and clean (and
long), the people are friendly (the airport dog even more friendly),
and not that long of a drive or a flight from anyplace when you
consider how close it is to Huntsville. Anyway thanks Dan! And good
luck to all of you in RV land.
Bryan Flood
N95BF (0.6 hours)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Anyone have anymore information about this? |
2 killed in Sonoma County plane crash
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/28/
BAGR8KQNVS4.DTL
tw
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
It seems that everyone on the list has replied, so why should I be any
different?
As a person who strives to swim downstream, and not upstream, I learned
early from Van's when most of their advice to my questions was "to just
make it work." Sort of like if the small hammer doesn't work, use a
slightly bigger one.
Somewhere during the wing construction, I began to use Van's instructions
and plans as a general guidelines. You could say that my RV is not built
to the plans. But as many of you are finding out, few if any RVs are or
can be built to the exact specifications on the plans.
I remember on one of the promotional videos for the RVs of some disgruntled
builder running outside of the workshop with a part, throwing it on the
ground and then jumping up and down on it. I think someone at Vans has a
sense of humor, or at least understands that building an RV is not an exact
science step by step and paint by the numbers process.
I am one of the last people on earth to defend Vans Aircraft. I just offer
my opinions to help others overcome the extreme frustration that we all get
caught up in (some will not admit it). Take a week off, come back
refreshed and relook the problem, and the answer will be forthcoming! You
might not like the obvious answer, but that is part of homebuilding, you
have to take the good with the bad, or you will be forced to abandon you
project!
BTW the kit with the most comprehensive instructions that I have heard of
was the Christen Eagle. At the time I built my RV, the RV kit cost about
$11,000 and the Eagle kit was $50,000. Would you rather pay Van the extra
$39,000 or do it yourself?
Bob
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone have anymore information about this? |
I just saw a second report on KRON-TV (Channel 4 out of SF), and they
showed some video footage of the wreckage. The tail was visible - white
with blue and red stripes across the top of the vertical stab. The first
anchor called it a "homemade plane." The report also said the pilot was
trying to land on Hwy 101.
Not much else in the report - I'll post more if I hear it.
My condolences...
Terry Williams wrote:
> 2 killed in Sonoma County plane crash
>
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/28/BAGR8KQNVS4.DTL
>
> tw
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone have anymore information about this? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
I know nothing about the crash, but it would be nice
if the person who wrote the article knew what they
were talking about...!
Darrell
--- Terry Williams <7ecapilot@comcast.net> wrote:
> 2 killed in Sonoma County plane crash
>
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/28/
>
> BAGR8KQNVS4.DTL
>
> tw
__________________________________________________
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | RV6 down in Petaluma |
Sad news about a couple guys in a RV-6 up in Petaluma today. Anybody know
anything?
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/28/BAGR8KQNVS4.DTL
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/28/BAGR8KQNVS4.DTL
Parker Thomas
RV-6A 421PT
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RV6 down in Petaluma |
No, but it just amazes me the stuff that they write in the press without checking
facts...granted, for our sake, it sounds good that they do conduct such an
inspection, but nevertheless, it's not true.
"Home-built planes, often referred to as "experimental aircraft," are inspected
by an FAA examiner who looks at the bolts, rivets and mechanical parts of the
craft before the metal skin is installed. If it passes, the pilot is restricted
to flying alone, and over unpopulated areas, for a period of time, Gregor
said, and must pass an annual inspection."
Last I checked, the FAA examiner (or DAR if it happens to be) doesn't check the
craft before the metal skin is installed.
Paul Besing
do not archive
Parker Thomas <me@parkerthomas.com> wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Sad news about a
couple guys in a RV-6 up in Petaluma today. Anybody know anything?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/28/BAGR8KQNVS4.DTL
Parker Thomas
RV-6A 421PT
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Kick Back - More Info |
FYI...I had an electroair ignition and had problems with Kickback, and the subsequent
owner did as well...even chipped teeth on the ring gear...could have been
the ignition, but not sure...I seem to remember that you started it on the
EI, but didn't turn on the advance function until start, but that was 5 years
ago, and am not 100% sure.
Paul Besing
Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
All EI systems I've seen have a retard mechanism for starting. One of the
main benefits of an EI is it's supposed ease of starting.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Reiche
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
--> RV-List message posted by: Charles Reiche
Why would you want to do this if the mag has the impulse coupling? You
might as well use an non IC mag for that. Does the electronic ign have an
option for retard timing?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray"
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
>
> No, you want to start the engine with the EI ON and the mag OFF.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:05 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Garry"
>
> I'm very close to wiring my plane and would like to know how to wire the
> ignition key switch. I have an AeroSport IO360 with one "mag", and one
> Lightspeed Electronic Ignition. It seems that the forum is suggesting
> that
> I wire the key switch so that in the "start" position only the Mag is
> firing, but upon releasing the key switch from start to both, that then
> both
>
> the mag and the Lightspeed are firing. Is this correct?
>
> Garry Stout
> RV7A Odessa Fl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Point"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Kick Back - More Info
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point
>>
>> rveighta wrote:
>>
>>>Sound like a impulse coupler problem?
>>>
>> No, it sounds like the non-impulse coupled mag is firing before TDC (like
>> it should) during starting. The purpose of the IC is to slow the mag
>> down
>
>> so it fires right at TDC during the starting process. When the engine is
>> running, there is enough speed and inertia that firing at 28 BTDC is
>> desireable. Duirng starting, when the engine is running so slowly, if
>> the
>
>> non-IC mag fires at 28 BDTC, it is likely to cause a kickback.
>>
>> Try leaving the non-IC mag off during starting. If you have a keyswitch,
>> make sure it's wired properly to ground (turn off) the non-IC mag at the
>> START position.
>>
>> Jeff Point
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: RV6 down in Petaluma |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
On 20:16:50 2006-08-28 Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Home-built planes, often referred to as "experimental aircraft,"
> are inspected by an FAA examiner who looks at the bolts, rivets and
> mechanical parts of the craft before the metal skin is installed. If it
> passes, the pilot is restricted to flying alone, and over unpopulated
> areas, for a period of time, Gregor said, and must pass an annual
> inspection."
>
> Last I checked, the FAA examiner (or DAR if it happens to be)
> doesn't check the craft before the metal skin is installed.
We all here know that, but to the general public it's a largely irrelevant
detail. I commend the reporter in question for at least communicating that
homebuilt aircraft are inspected by a regulatory body when they're built,
and are inspected regularly when they're flying. That's a lot better than
leaving it as "so and so died in a homemade plane". At least this time it
doesn't sound like some yahoo who slapped together an engine and some
planks of wood and went out trying to fly.
-Rob
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
Bob Collins wrote:
>I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod
>between the two control yokes is too short.
>
Having some experience in this area, I have to comment. I worked for a
company that designed and built road construction equipment. So I know
a thing or two about creating drawings and fixing the errors. I don't
think most people understand just how difficult and time consuming that
is. You can't just change a drawing and call it done. First you need a
change order to document the changes That has to be approved, then the
drawing has to be changed. Once the documentation has all been done, it
has to be checked and approved by at least one person in not two. Then
the new documents can be released, which is a whole process of it's
own. As hard to believe as it may be, the process is even more complex
than I just made it sound. Where I worked we would design a machine,
build 5 or 10, and the drawings still wouldn't be all corrected. I was
once working on drawings for a "one off" machine, a good 6 months after
the machine had been shipped. Keep in mind it takes a while to build
these huge machines. The level of detail Vans puts in his instructions
is pretty amazing to me. Where I worked, you would not get any
instructions, just the drawings and parts lists. Granted the people
there did this for a living, and they could always walk in the office
and ask the engineers and designers if they had a question. Coming from
that background, when I hear some one complain about an incorrect bolt
callout, I have no sympathy at all. I don't even know why you would
waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just find a bolt
that fits and use it. Some have commented that Vans will not fix these
errors. That may or may not be true, but I can't think of anything that
would have a lower priority on the list of things to do, than fix bolt
and rivet callout errors.
I'm not saying Vans couldn't or shouldn't do better, but when are
working on exciting new projects like the RV-12, fixing trivial errors
on drawings, gets put on the back burner. I think it is also important
to underscore what has been said by Jerry and others regarding their
experience building their planes. Obviously from what they had, it is
clear that Vans does improve their drawings.
Finally a few friendly suggestions for those who are struggling with
some part of the plans that is confusing, try and put that part aside
for a while and work on something else, getting more of the big picture
and coming back later may make it all very clear. It's always a good
idea to read far a head to get a good over view before you start too.
Realize the errors are always going to be there, don't get too hung up
because you found one. Figure out how it is supposed to work, and move
on.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
Chris W,
I have struggled with myself to not get drawn into this thread, but, thank God,
at last a voice of reason among all the whining about incorrect bolt/rivet/whatever
callouts. Under the 51% rule building our airplanes is supposed to be
an educational process, which used to require a certain amount of thinking on
the part of the one supposedly being educated. If the friggen bolt/rivet/whatever
is too short/long /whatever just change to what is required and move on.
Yeah, the plans and instructions have a few mistakes. So what, it ain't a perfect
world, think about it and do what is required to make it right.
FLAME ON!
Do Not Archive
--
Harry Crosby
RV-6 N16CX, 254 hours
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
>
> Bob Collins wrote:
>
> >I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod
> >between the two control yokes is too short.
> >
>
> Having some experience in this area, I have to comment. I worked for a
> company that designed and built road construction equipment. So I know
> a thing or two about creating drawings and fixing the errors. I don't
> think most people understand just how difficult and time consuming that
> is. You can't just change a drawing and call it done. First you need a
> change order to document the changes That has to be approved, then the
> drawing has to be changed. Once the documentation has all been done, it
> has to be checked and approved by at least one person in not two. Then
> the new documents can be released, which is a whole process of it's
> own. As hard to believe as it may be, the process is even more complex
> than I just made it sound. Where I worked we would design a machine,
> build 5 or 10, and the drawings still wouldn't be all corrected. I was
> once working on drawings for a "one off" machine, a good 6 months after
> the machine had been shipped. Keep in mind it takes a while to build
> these huge machines. The level of detail Vans puts in his instructions
> is pretty amazing to me. Where I worked, you would not get any
> instructions, just the drawings and parts lists. Granted the people
> there did this for a living, and they could always walk in the office
> and ask the engineers and designers if they had a question. Coming from
> that background, when I hear some one complain about an incorrect bolt
> callout, I have no sympathy at all. I don't even know why you would
> waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just find a bolt
> that fits and use it. Some have commented that Vans will not fix these
> errors. That may or may not be true, but I can't think of anything that
> would have a lower priority on the list of things to do, than fix bolt
> and rivet callout errors.
>
> I'm not saying Vans couldn't or shouldn't do better, but when are
> working on exciting new projects like the RV-12, fixing trivial errors
> on drawings, gets put on the back burner. I think it is also important
> to underscore what has been said by Jerry and others regarding their
> experience building their planes. Obviously from what they had, it is
> clear that Vans does improve their drawings.
>
> Finally a few friendly suggestions for those who are struggling with
> some part of the plans that is confusing, try and put that part aside
> for a while and work on something else, getting more of the big picture
> and coming back later may make it all very clear. It's always a good
> idea to read far a head to get a good over view before you start too.
> Realize the errors are always going to be there, don't get too hung up
> because you found one. Figure out how it is supposed to work, and move
> on.
>
> do not archive
>
>
> --
> Chris W
> KE5GIX
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>Chris W,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have struggled with myself to not get drawn into this thread, but, thank
God, at last a voice of reason among all the whining about incorrect bolt/rivet/whatever
callouts. Under the 51% rule building our airplanes is supposed
to be an educational process, which used to require a certain amount of thinking
on the part of the one supposedly being educated. If the friggen
bolt/rivet/whatever is too short/long /whatever just change to what is required
and move on. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yeah, the plans and instructions have a few mistakes. So what, it ain't
a perfect world, think about it and do what is required to make it right.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>FLAME ON!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do Not Archive</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--<BR>Harry Crosby <BR>RV-6 N16CX, 254 hours</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
<BR><BR>> --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
<BR>> <BR>> Bob Collins wrote: <BR>> <BR>> >I
just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod <BR>>
>between the two control yokes is too short. <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>>
Having some experience in this area, I have to comment. I worked for a <BR>>
company that designed and built road construction equipment. So I know
<BR>> a thing or two about creating drawings and fixing the errors. I don't
<BR>> think most people understand just how difficult and time consuming that
<BR>> is. You can't just change a drawing and call it done. First you need
a <BR>> change order to document the changes That has to be approved, then
the <BR>> drawing has to be changed. Once the
docume
ntation has all been done, it <BR>> has to be checked and approved by at least
one person in not two. Then <BR>> the new documents can be released, which
is a whole process of it's <BR>> own. As hard to believe as it may be, the
process is even more complex <BR>> than I just made it sound. Where I worked
we would design a machine, <BR>> build 5 or 10, and the drawings still
wouldn't be all corrected. I was <BR>> once working on drawings for a "one
off" machine, a good 6 months after <BR>> the machine had been shipped. Keep
in mind it takes a while to build <BR>> these huge machines. The level of
detail Vans puts in his instructions <BR>> is pretty amazing to me. Where
I worked, you would not get any <BR>> instructions, just the drawings and
parts lists. Granted the people <BR>> there did this for a living, and they
could always walk in the office <BR>> and ask the engineers and designers
if they had a question. Coming from <BR>> that bac
kgroun
d, when I hear some one complain about an incorrect bolt <BR>> callout, I have
no sympathy at all. I don't even know why you would <BR>> waste time looking
up what length bolt was called out, just find a bolt <BR>> that fits and
use it. Some have commented that Vans will not fix these <BR>> errors. That
may or may not be true, but I can't think of anything that <BR>> would
have a lower priority on the list of things to do, than fix bolt <BR>> and
rivet callout errors. <BR>> <BR>> I'm not saying Vans couldn't or shouldn't
do better, but when are <BR>> working on exciting new projects like the
RV-12, fixing trivial errors <BR>> on drawings, gets put on the back burner.
I think it is also important <BR>> to underscore what has been said by Jerry
and others regarding their <BR>> experience building their planes. Obviously
from what they had, it is <BR>> clear that Vans does improve their drawings.
<BR>> <BR>> Finally a few friendly sug
gestio
and m
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings |
Here is a copy of a letter I wrote in 1999 while building my RV-8.
Doesn't sound like things have changed much, Too bad.
The plans are useable, but...........
>
> Take a look at the plans that Frank Christen had for the Christen
Eagle II
> twenty years ago. Outstanding!!! A manual for every kit, subdivided
with a
> general description of what the task is, description of new skills, an
> accurate list of parts needed on the next section, tools needed and
> preaddressed cards to report back any errors or questions. Isometric
> pictures on every page. Change letters on every page, upgrades sent
until
> you are done with that area. Small parts packaged in plastic boxes
with the
> part number for each part depicted in the lid of the box when you
flipped
> the it open.
>
> Van's plans are useable but they could be much better. I think I
learned
> just as much building the Eagle without all the guess work and
wandering
> around the garage trying to figure out what Van meant. You still have
to do
> the work and use the tools, you just know that what you are doing is
RIGHT.
Rich Crosley
RV-8, N948RC
175 hours
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
HCRV6@comcast.net wrote:
> Chris W,
>
> I have struggled with myself to not get drawn into this thread, but,
> thank God, at last a voice of reason among all the whining about
> incorrect bolt/rivet/whatever callouts. Under the 51% rule building
> our airplanes is supposed to be an educational process, which used to
> require a certain amount of thinking on the part of the one supposedly
> being educated. If the friggen bolt/rivet/whatever is too short/long
> /whatever just change to what is required and move on.
>
> Yeah, the plans and instructions have a few mistakes. So what, it
> ain't a perfect world, think about it and do what is required to make
> it right.
>
> FLAME ON!
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> --
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 254 hours
>
Very well said Harry, It still amazes me that they can design, draw and
build parts and keep straight all the parts for the different airplanes
and also can ship them out
with as few mistakes as there are. With the few people that work there
to do this is a tribute to the leadership of the company, I think some
people think that when they buy the
kit it is suppose to snap together and they forget the "educational"
part of the process. How many of you here were handed a piece of alum,
angle and told this is the elevator
hinges? This is what we used to have to do cut them out of alum. angle
and make our own. When I built my RV-6 there was no such thing as
electric flaps but I wanted electric flap.
I had to go scrounge up a Cessna 150 electric flap motor system and
figure out how to make it work in my RV-6. Still works great after 18
years. The one thing that would have helped me
is if there had been more pictures in the manual to show how parts were
suppose to go together, to me pictures are worth thousands of words. :-)
Hope to see a lot of you at Van's homecoming this weekend.
Jerry
do not archive
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