Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:15 AM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in ()
2. 02:34 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Mike Kraus)
3. 04:02 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Jim Sears)
4. 06:22 AM - Re: Day 2 Trio Avionics Autopilot Install (Charles Heathco)
5. 07:14 AM - Engine mount out of spec (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
6. 07:19 AM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Rick Galati)
7. 07:23 AM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (kitfoxmike)
8. 07:30 AM - Rants (John Fasching)
9. 07:30 AM - Re: RV6 down in Petaluma (Paul Besing)
10. 07:45 AM - Van's Wheel Fairings (Derrick Aubuchon)
11. 08:09 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec (Dan Checkoway)
12. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Lockamy, Jack L)
13. 08:18 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (Bob)
14. 08:21 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec ()
15. 08:23 AM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (Dan Checkoway)
16. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Bob Collins)
17. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Bob Collins)
18. 08:53 AM - Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 (linn Walters)
19. 09:08 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
20. 09:24 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
21. 09:44 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec (Dale Ensing)
22. 10:13 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec (Dan Checkoway)
23. 10:38 AM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (Dave Nellis)
24. 10:51 AM - Re: Engine mount out of spec (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
25. 10:55 AM - Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. (Dean Van Winkle)
26. 11:01 AM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (Dale Ensing)
27. 11:28 AM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (Ron Lee)
28. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Sam Buchanan)
29. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (c.ennis)
30. 01:13 PM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (c.ennis)
31. 01:24 PM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (Sherman Butler)
32. 02:08 PM - Engine mount out of spec (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
33. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Jim Duckett)
34. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (JOHN STARN)
35. 03:12 PM - Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
36. 03:29 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Paul Trotter)
37. 03:45 PM - Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. (Ron Lee)
38. 05:03 PM - Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. (Ed Holyoke)
39. 05:06 PM - TRUTRACK ADI Pilot 1 (Ian Findlay)
40. 06:01 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Jerry Springer)
41. 07:14 PM - Re: Van's Wheel Fairings (dick martin)
42. 07:20 PM - Re: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in (Charlie England)
43. 08:56 PM - Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. (Larry Bowen)
44. 09:22 PM - Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings (pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper))
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
What does a Cristen Eagle kit cost?
Are these Kits even made any more?
But there where mistakes right?
I would just have to say build what you like. It's a challenge to build,
and if it was easy everyone would do it. Sad truth, rarely said is
not everyone can build a plane no matter how much desire they
have, for one reason or another.
You make good observations and the Van's "system" could be better,
but it's still a fairly easy to build kit even comparied to the C-Eagle,
which was no walk in the park, even with the great instructions.
Cheers George M. RV-4, RV-7
>From: "Richard Crosley" <rcrosley@adelphia.net>
>
>Here is a copy of a letter I wrote in 1999 while building my RV-8.
>Doesn't sound like things have changed much, Too bad.
>
>The plans are usable, but...........
>
> Take a look at the plans that Frank Christen had for the Christen
>Eagle II
> twenty years ago. Outstanding!!! A manual for every kit, subdivided
>with a general description of what the task is, description of new skills,
>an accurate list of parts needed on the next section, tools needed and
> preaddressed cards to report back any errors or questions. Isometric
> pictures on every page. Change letters on every page, upgrades sent
>until you are done with that area. Small parts packaged in plastic boxes
>with the part number for each part depicted in the lid of the box when you
>flipped the it open...........................<snip>
>Rich Crosley
>RV-8, N948RC
---------------------------------
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Kraus" <n223rv@wolflakeairport.net>
Chris,
I couldn't have said it better myself.... I fully agree with you. As
an engineer in the auto industry, changes seem easy on the outside until
you realize all the checks and balances in the system required to keep
accuracy. Just because someone says something does not work does not
mean the prints need to be changed....
If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints, build an
RV-4.... Directions are useless, you basically build it by the
blueprints.
If you think the RV-4 is bad, then go build a Murphy Moose. They start
with directions that are as useless as the RV-4, but then they don't
even give you blueprints.
The RV-10 has best in class instructions. If you have an issue with
them, maybe another hobby would be better. After building an RV-4, I
personally don't like the RV-10 instructions. They take all the
thinking out of building the airplane. They are step-by-step
instructions that you can blindly follow without every actually thinking
about what you are doing. The instructions are scary because they are
so good, that now virtually anyone can build an airplane.
It cracked me up when some guy on the -10 list published a list in a
rant about all the stuff he was missing on the brand new RV-10 kit... A
bold here, a few rivet here, an Adel clamp...... He spend more time and
negative energy publishing that than just ordering the stuff and
continuing on with the build.... You are going to need tons of extra
hardware to maintain the plane, so don't get so caught up on missing
stuff.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris W
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
Bob Collins wrote:
>I just found one. The bolt callout (3-10A) for connecting the pushrod
>between the two control yokes is too short.
>
Having some experience in this area, I have to comment. I worked for a
company that designed and built road construction equipment. So I know
a thing or two about creating drawings and fixing the errors. I don't
think most people understand just how difficult and time consuming that
is. You can't just change a drawing and call it done. First you need a
change order to document the changes That has to be approved, then the
drawing has to be changed. Once the documentation has all been done, it
has to be checked and approved by at least one person in not two. Then
the new documents can be released, which is a whole process of it's
own. As hard to believe as it may be, the process is even more complex
than I just made it sound. Where I worked we would design a machine,
build 5 or 10, and the drawings still wouldn't be all corrected. I was
once working on drawings for a "one off" machine, a good 6 months after
the machine had been shipped. Keep in mind it takes a while to build
these huge machines. The level of detail Vans puts in his instructions
is pretty amazing to me. Where I worked, you would not get any
instructions, just the drawings and parts lists. Granted the people
there did this for a living, and they could always walk in the office
and ask the engineers and designers if they had a question. Coming from
that background, when I hear some one complain about an incorrect bolt
callout, I have no sympathy at all. I don't even know why you would
waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just find a bolt
that fits and use it. Some have commented that Vans will not fix these
errors. That may or may not be true, but I can't think of anything that
would have a lower priority on the list of things to do, than fix bolt
and rivet callout errors.
I'm not saying Vans couldn't or shouldn't do better, but when are
working on exciting new projects like the RV-12, fixing trivial errors
on drawings, gets put on the back burner. I think it is also important
to underscore what has been said by Jerry and others regarding their
experience building their planes. Obviously from what they had, it is
clear that Vans does improve their drawings.
Finally a few friendly suggestions for those who are struggling with
some part of the plans that is confusing, try and put that part aside
for a while and work on something else, getting more of the big picture
and coming back later may make it all very clear. It's always a good
idea to read far a head to get a good over view before you start too.
Realize the errors are always going to be there, don't get too hung up
because you found one. Figure out how it is supposed to work, and move
on.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" <jmsears@adelphia.net>
I've been watching this thread with interest because I had my own issues
with the way some in Van's company tend to wave off some of the problems we
find. Way back in the early '90's, I was just starting to build the wings
on my -6A. I did some preliminary measurements of the holes in the spars at
the rib stations. To my horror, most of the holes were off center by as
much as 3/16"!. Needless to say, my stomach churned the rest of the day;
and, I couldn't get in touch with Van's. I talked with someone at Van's the
next day and was laughed at. I didn't think it was one bit funny. I had to
spend a lot of extra time working around the problem that should never have
been there, in the first place. Amazingly, another builder reported the
same problem in his spars five years later! I wonder how many other
builders had the problem and never reported it. Of course, that was one of
several errors I found in the kits, the plans, and the manuals. How soon
some of our builders forget. :-)
Since then, I've completed my -6A and have it flying. I've also done a
major portion of the work on a QB-9A and am currently working on a new -7A
for myself. I'm also watching the construction of a new RV-10 by a friend
of mine. All have their problems in drawings, manuals, etc.; but, I must
admit the kits, manuals, and such, are much better than what I had to use to
build my first RV. I know my experience level helps; but, it's nice to
progress at twice the speed as I did on the -6A. Of course, my progress
would be much better if I'd just go out the shop and work on the project.
:-)
BTW, I'm in agreement with another contributor concerning the manual for
the -10. I like having a set of plans to work from that are full size for
most parts. If I ever need to replace a part, I could use the plans to make
the part from. Other than that, the manual is pretty neat. I'm not
complaining about the -7A manual, even if I've found an error, or two. It's
much better than what I had before.
Thanks to the internet, which I didn't have for a goodly portion of the work
on my -6A, most of us can work around the builder's problems, in spite of
some lacking from Van's. The RV-list, when used for what it was intended,
is a great source for answers. I guess that's why I'm still subscribing ten
years later. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Fuse bulkheads and holding)
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Day 2 Trio Avionics Autopilot Install |
Hiya Dana, One thing I would sugest is that you should have rivited the
hanger and bolt or screwed the module, you will have to take it out. I
have had mine out 3 times, this time to be exchanged. Charles heathco
Message 5
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| Subject: | Engine mount out of spec |
With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A recently.
When I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap between the spinner
and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see all the innards.
I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was told
that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be something else
causing the problem. Since I am using the same everything else, I can't see
what else it could be. With the engine mounted and 2 weeks of connecting up
everything already done, I am stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch doesn't
sound like much, but The airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now going
to have to do major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross errors
in the engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you build
your airplane because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built into
your mount, or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that all
these airplanes are different!
Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its still a great
airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
do not archive
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 175 hours and holding
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
n223rv(at)wolflakeairport wrote:
> .........If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints, build an
RV-4.... The RV-10 has best in class instructions. If you have an issue with
them, maybe another hobby would be better............
Some time ago, a seasoned airline pilot with a wry wit observed that the airline
travel experience was being rapidly reduced to just two classes of flyers.......First
Class and Third World.
As Van's kits and plans increasingly improve, the process has been democratized
to the point that a whole new class of builder has emerged. Because of the advanced
nature of todays kits, it is now possible to attract the masses. For
the first time in history, it is possible for the marginally skilled (and that
includes builders who have assembled nothing more complicated than a propane
barbeque grill from Lowes or Home Depot), the impatient citizen long accustomed
to instant gratification and his cousin....the first time builder and vocal
critic who cannot adapt generally well written plans and callouts to a particular
building situation. Such are the realities of an efficient marketplace. A
place at the table for everyone.
I'll go even further than that. I say a prepunched Quickbuild kit is to homebuilt
aircraft construction what a Betty Crocker Warm Delights Molten Chocolate
cake mix is to the culinary arts. It is generally conceded the devils food treat
can be loosely described as cake but demanding purists with a discerning palate
would naturally chafe at the notion and the chef a natural impulse to suggest
a Herculean effort and superior cooking skill to produce a confection demanding
little more than cup water and 1 minute, 45 seconds in the microwave.
[Rolling Eyes]
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" (standard kit)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58209#58209
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
I just want to put in that I think Vans is excellent. It's the frickin builder,
being myself in this case. I'm the one that forgets to do something, or I cut
something wrong, I get ahead of myself. Personally, I don't know how the average
person can do these kits, that's probably why so many people join these
groups, because they are pretty complicated. Myself, I hardly use the manual,
I just look at the blueprints and just throw it together so to speak. When I
have a problem then I go to the manual, but that still leaves me a little baffled,
so then I come here and read a little, then I go to the different web sites
and then I go look for an RV at the airport, to look at it.
Myself I've built many remote control airplanes in the past. I've always been
able to use my hands and put things together, well I do have a transmission shop
and build todays transmissions and do the computer systems and electronics.
So this gives me a real big boost for building the RV. I love this stuff,
I call it my big erector set. Which was my most favorite toy when I was a kid,
you couldn't get me away from it.
I just love the prepunched holes, but I think most people are putting to much work
into these kits. I personally just go through and drill out all the holes
to the proper size, then I put them together, forget about match hole drilling,
I feel that when you do that, you stand a chance of changing the alignments,
just drill them real quick seperately then put them together. Like I said,
when I do this and put them together I then check the alignments and there right
on.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
rv7 wingkit
reserved 287RV
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58210#58210
Message 8
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DO NOT ARCHIVE
I had my share of complaints while building my RV6A, which began in
about 1991, so I plead 'guilty' to crabbing too.
But it isn't just Van's or other aircraft kits that have problems. I
made a grandfather clock, and the wooden case (about 6-ft tall with a
lot of detail parts) kit was accompanied with "instructions" - they
essentially pointed out which tree I should cut down to make the case.
So it isn't just aircraft plans.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RV6 down in Petaluma |
Yes, that's definately a good point, and the fact that his facts were not straight
is definately a plus in our column...we just got lucky that the error was
in our favor...too often they make errors without checking facts, and unfortunately
there is a negative spin on them.
Yeah, couldn't you imagine that if he wrote "Ironically, the airplane was built
in someone's garage from a mail order kit" or something like that.
Paul Besing
"Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)"
On 20:16:50 2006-08-28 Paul Besing
wrote:
> "Home-built planes, often referred to as "experimental aircraft,"
> are inspected by an FAA examiner who looks at the bolts, rivets and
> mechanical parts of the craft before the metal skin is installed. If it
> passes, the pilot is restricted to flying alone, and over unpopulated
> areas, for a period of time, Gregor said, and must pass an annual
> inspection."
>
> Last I checked, the FAA examiner (or DAR if it happens to be)
> doesn't check the craft before the metal skin is installed.
We all here know that, but to the general public it's a largely irrelevant
detail. I commend the reporter in question for at least communicating that
homebuilt aircraft are inspected by a regulatory body when they're built,
and are inspected regularly when they're flying. That's a lot better than
leaving it as "so and so died in a homemade plane". At least this time it
doesn't sound like some yahoo who slapped together an engine and some
planks of wood and went out trying to fly.
-Rob
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Van's Wheel Fairings |
I am replacing (finally!) my original, old style wheel fairings, for
Van's "new" Pressure Recovery fairings.
Any ideas on what works best for a minimal tire-to-faring clearance
around the lower opening?
Thanks,
Derrick L. Aubuchon
RV-4: N184DA (450+ hrs)
Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
n184da@volcano.net
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
Thought about shimming the mount away from the firewall? I know it has
been done before on RVs when folks upgraded from FP to CS props, and the
spinner ended up further away from the cowl...
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:13 AM
Subject: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A
recently. When I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap
between the spinner and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see
all the innards.
I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was
told that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be
something else causing the problem. Since I am using the same
everything else, I can't see what else it could be. With the engine
mounted and 2 weeks of connecting up everything already done, I am
stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch doesn't sound like much, but The
airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now going to have to do
major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross errors in the
engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you build your
airplane because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built into
your mount, or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that
all these airplanes are different!
Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its still a
great airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
do not archive
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 175 hours and holding
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
I'd like to add some more fuel to the fire here....
I'm no homebuilt-airplane expert, but having been in this 'hobby' for
about the last 17 years or so and having built three (3) airplanes, I
have run across a LOT of folks attempting to build an airplane that CAN
NOT and/or SHOULD NOT be doing so! If you can't figure out, on your
own, what size and length of bolt or rivet is required to attach two or
more pieces together, you really need to find another hobby and buy a
spam can if you want an airplane. My hat is off to the guys who answer
the tech support line at Van's. I can not imagine having to answer the
same old, tired questions from people who need someone to hold their
hand during every step in the project. Study, read, practice, learn it
on your own! My personal rule is that if I have spent two or more hours
studying the problem and the 'light hasn't come on yet....", I ask for
help. But, I did take the time to figure it out on my own first and
usually am successful. Not because I am smart (I'm definitely not....),
but because most of this stuff is 'common sense' which a lot of wannabe
builders seem to lack.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone and it is certainly not directed at any
one individual, however I think it needs to be acknowledged that not all
of us have the same skill set. I tell others I'm not an airplane
builder... I am an "assembler". I have buddies who are "builders" and I
will never have, or be capable of learning, the skills they have. I
think it was Clint Eastwood who said...."A man has to know his
limitations". I know mine and when I need help, I, unlike a lot of
guys, don't mind admitting my shortcomings and ask for assistance.
Not everyone can a build an airplane, even if the plans were
perfect.....
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
RV-7A N174JL 220 hrs
www.jacklockamy.com
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
>
>Interesting! I worked in ignition system design for GM for 15 years. We
>always had to meet a 4.5 volt, 30 RPM cranking test. Yes, a low battery
>on a GM car can dip to 4.5 volts and the ignition system has to stay in
>sync and deliver a spark. It seems to me like a design defect, and LSE
>should do the fix for no charge.
This is not just a problem with LSE but with magnetos as well. I had the
same problem with slick magnetos, my fix, was to go with a 25 year old
prestolite starter. It works great and only cost me $150. It cost me more
to fix the SkyTec starter the first time, the second time I did not fix it!
It seems that this is more a problem with SkyTec and they should fix the
problem, of course they told me my magnetos were not timed properly and
that was the reason for the kickbacks! I do not like their product, but
their management is very innovative on reasons why it is not their fault
that their starter does not work.
Bob
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
--> RV-List message posted by: <rickgray@adelphia.net>
Not sure which prop you have but...on the C/S Hartzell there are shims put in when
you fit the spinner to set the backplate distance....you may gain some 'working
area' by looking at the shims. Also.....I'd be tempted to look at my spinner
and rework some fiberglass to the back end thus 'extending' the spinner back
at tad over the rear bulkhead....this would be a LOT easier and quicker than
working on the cowls...I've done a handful of RV's and a couple rebuilds/finishes
for others....ask me how I know.
Good Luck
Rick at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
> Thought about shimming the mount away from the firewall? I know it has been
done before on RVs when folks upgraded from FP to CS props, and the spinner ended
up further away from the cowl...
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:13 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
>
>
>
> With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
>
> I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A recently. When
I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap between the spinner
and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see all the innards.
>
> I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was told that
this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be something else
causing the problem. Since I am using the same everything else, I can't see
what else it could be. With the engine mounted and 2 weeks of connecting up everything
already done, I am stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch doesn't sound like
much, but The airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now going to have
to do major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross errors in the
engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you build your airplane
because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built into your mount,
or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that all these airplanes
are different!
>
> Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its still a great
airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
>
> do not archive
>
> Dan Hopper
> RV-7A 175 hours and holding
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
Fingertip width clearance imho. Your finger may vary... ;-)
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Aubuchon
To: RV List
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:44 AM
Subject: RV-List: Van's Wheel Fairings
I am replacing (finally!) my original, old style wheel fairings, for
Van's "new" Pressure Recovery fairings.
Any ideas on what works best for a minimal tire-to-faring clearance
around the lower opening?
Thanks,
Derrick L. Aubuchon
RV-4: N184DA (450+ hrs)
Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
n184da@volcano.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>I don't even know why you would
> waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just
> find a bolt
> that fits and use it.
Well, I'm probably a little anal in this area but I like to make sure all of
the parts that the designers want in a connection of any importance are
installed on the plane. So I actually use the plans more than the
instructions because I like to make sure the waashers are where they're
supposed to be around rod end bearings etc (I actually, just an aside, am
kind of surprised when I look at a number of builders who graciously put
their work online, how many rod end bearings are not surrounded by washers.
And as a further aside, let me point out the value of -- of at least to me
-- of the online log that pointed out the value of surrounding the TruTrak
installation with washeres).
Anyway, as long as I'm using the plans, it's easier to look at the bolt
callout, grab it out of the right bin and install it.
Now, it's true, you could just grab a couple of bolts and put one in until
one fits properly. But in my case, theat probably wouldn't work. Why?
Because I installed those bolts in that control column the other night and
put the nutstops on and never noticed it didn't fit until I was
disassembling it the other day.
Your point on the plans production difficulty is taken which is why I value
these lists and databses so much because I CAN make the changes really quick
when people find them. I just take a pen, scratch ut what's on the plans and
write down the correct part, number, or process. Simple.
I've REALLY enjoyed BUILDING the plane so far and if it's half as much fun
to fly as it is to build ...well... Great. But I'm a different person than
when I started. All my life, my family called me the "Scotch tape kid,"
because when something wasn't quite right, I'd just Scotch tape it until it
was. My dad's fixes were legendary for their -- ummm -- quirkiness and
inconsistency of results. That was me. However, since I started building 5
years ago, I answer to "me" now. I want to do things perfectly and though
perfection is often not achievable, approaching tasks with that goal is what
I like. I go slow and if *I'm* not satisfied, I redo it or do it until I
*am* satisfied.
I'm the quality control guy on my plane; not the guy at the other end of the
phone or the person that laughs at my question or the people who might
ridicule me on a bulletin board for not being just like him. Look, sure
we'd like the plans to be as good as they can be. But Van's isn't building
my plane. I'm building my plane and one of the things you learn in the
constructin process is that sometimes the plans are inefficient, and the
instructions are in ther ight order and you have to check and doublecheck if
you're of that mind to do so. I think questioning and double-checking is a
good thing and I think it leads to good habits in every other facet of
flying. It's no different, it seems to me, than checking your fuel tank
after the line guy has filled it up to be sure that it's full of 100LL and
not JetA.
So I think in the end we have to live with what we have. But I also think we
should accept that everyone is -- as I said before -- different. Brains work
differently. Rather than spend endless time characterizing people as being
one way or the other -- a completely fruitless exercise in the grand scheme
of things -- let's just redouble our efforts to provide information that can
help our fellow builders. Let's offer constructive advice and support.
Van's is one of the quirkiest companies I've ever dealt with. Heck of a
plane, no doubt about it. They're not going to suddenly change their ways
any more than I am going to go back to being the Scotch tape kid. We are
what we are.
Bob
RV Builder's Hotline
http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
I can honestly say, then, that I should not have started building the
airplane with the skill set I had when starting the project. However, as
the
project has progressed, I believe I have become "qualified" to build (
<http://tinyurl.com/ph5za> http://tinyurl.com/ph5za for background). I
did
so because *I* proactively sought out an education in this area and --
perhaps even more important -- folks were positive and energetic in
providing the advice to make me a better builder. I'm pretty that's a
key
idea behind the rule that allows us to build these things anyway.
Occasionally, I run into builders who say "I built this myself." I
usually
say, "no you didn't." (g)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lockamy, Jack L
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
I'd like to add some more fuel to the fire here....
I'm no homebuilt-airplane expert, but having been in this 'hobby' for
about
the last 17 years or so and having built three (3) airplanes, I have run
across a LOT of folks attempting to build an airplane that CAN NOT
and/or
SHOULD NOT be doing so! If you can't figure out, on your own, what size
and
length of bolt or rivet is required to attach two or more pieces
together,
you really need to find another hobby and buy a spam can if you want an
airplane. My hat is off to the guys who answer the tech support line at
Van's. I can not imagine having to answer the same old, tired questions
from people who need someone to hold their hand during every step in the
project. Study, read, practice, learn it on your own! My personal rule
is
that if I have spent two or more hours studying the problem and the
'light
hasn't come on yet....", I ask for help. But, I did take the time to
figure
it out on my own first and usually am successful. Not because I am
smart
(I'm definitely not....), but because most of this stuff is 'common
sense'
which a lot of wannabe builders seem to lack.
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Kick-Back IO-360 |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Just as another opinion ..... I love my Sky-Tek! No more stuck bendix
problems! No more engaged starter if I'm forced to prop it!!! The
starter isn't ever the problem with kickback. If you have electronic
ignition, you might just want to go to bigger starter cable in the
airplane. If the starter is dragging down the voltage then it's only
one of two things: bad battery or too small cables. If you have mags,
then it's a stupid pilot trick starting on both mags. You surely can't
blame that on the starter!!! Well, I guess you did, so that's where
we're at. Anyway, my Sky-Tek swings my O-360 fast enough for the
non-impulse to fire. I'm grateful for that in case my impulse dies far
from home. If the battery is good then I can at least get the plane
started.
Now, if anyone's still having problems with their Sky-Tek starter, just
email Les at lstaples@itexas.net and he'll help you out. I've had cause
to use their customer service and was more than happy with the outcome.
I now relinquish my soapbox to the next ranter.
Linn
do not archive
Bob wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
>
>
>>
>> Interesting! I worked in ignition system design for GM for 15
>> years. We always had to meet a 4.5 volt, 30 RPM cranking test. Yes,
>> a low battery on a GM car can dip to 4.5 volts and the ignition
>> system has to stay in sync and deliver a spark. It seems to me like
>> a design defect, and LSE should do the fix for no charge.
>
>
> This is not just a problem with LSE but with magnetos as well. I had
> the same problem with slick magnetos, my fix, was to go with a 25 year
> old prestolite starter. It works great and only cost me $150. It
> cost me more to fix the SkyTec starter the first time, the second time
> I did not fix it!
>
> It seems that this is more a problem with SkyTec and they should fix
> the problem, of course they told me my magnetos were not timed
> properly and that was the reason for the kickbacks! I do not like
> their product, but their management is very innovative on reasons why
> it is not their fault that their starter does not work.
>
>
> Bob
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
Hi Dan,
Err, uh, that would make the problem even worse!
Dan H
In a message dated 8/29/2006 11:12:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dan@rvproject.com writes:
Thought about shimming the mount away from the firewall? I know it has been
done before on RVs when folks upgraded from FP to CS props, and the spinner
ended up further away from the cowl...
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
_http://www.rvproject.com_ (http://www.rvproject.com/)
----- Original Message -----
From: _Hopperdhh@aol.com_ (mailto:Hopperdhh@aol.com)
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:13 AM
Subject: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A recently.
When I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap between the spinner
and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see all the innards.
I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was told
that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be something else
causing the problem. Since I am using the same everything else, I can't see
what else it could be. With the engine mounted and 2 weeks of connecting up
everything already done, I am stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch doesn't
sound like much, but The airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now going
to have to do major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross errors
in the engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you build
your airplane because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built into
your mount, or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that all
these airplanes are different!
Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its still a great
airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
do not archive
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 175 hours and holding
com/Navigator?RV-List
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
Hi Rick,
That is a good suggestion. Yes, I have a C/S Hartzell. I went out to the
hangar and looked things over again. It seems like the front bulkhead would
keep me from gaining more than about 1/8 inch. Can someone tell me how much
material extends behind the rear bulkhead on an untrimmed spinner? Replacing
the spinner would be preferable to me rather than adding fiberglass. Mine is
trimmed even with the bulkhead, and I don't remember how much of it I
trimmed away.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 200 HP Angle valve engine
In a message dated 8/29/2006 11:33:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rickgray@adelphia.net writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: <rickgray@adelphia.net>
Not sure which prop you have but...on the C/S Hartzell there are shims put
in when you fit the spinner to set the backplate distance....you may gain some
'working area' by looking at the shims. Also.....I'd be tempted to look at
my spinner and rework some fiberglass to the back end thus 'extending' the
spinner back at tad over the rear bulkhead....this would be a LOT easier and
quicker than working on the cowls...I've done a handful of RV's and a couple
rebuilds/finishes for others....ask me how I know.
Good Luck
Rick at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
> Thought about shimming the mount away from the firewall? I know it has
been done before on RVs when folks upgraded from FP to CS props, and the
spinner ended up further away from the cowl...
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:13 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
>
>
>
> With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
>
> I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A recently.
When I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap between the
spinner and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see all the innards.
>
> I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was told
that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be something
else causing the problem. Since I am using the same everything else, I
can't see what else it could be. With the engine mounted and 2 weeks of
connecting up everything already done, I am stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch
doesn't
sound like much, but The airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now
going to have to do major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross
errors in the engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you
build your airplane because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built
into your mount, or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that
all these airplanes are different!
>
> Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its still a
great airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
>
> do not archive
>
> Dan Hopper
> RV-7A 175 hours and holding
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
Dan,
My un-trimmed spinner for Hartzell C/S barely had enough to cover the
rear bulkhead. Mine was delivered in 1999. Maybe later produced spinners
had more. The current spinners sure have a much better finish to them
than the one I got seven years ago.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
Hi Rick,
That is a good suggestion. Yes, I have a C/S Hartzell. I went out to
the hangar and looked things over again. It seems like the front
bulkhead would keep me from gaining more than about 1/8 inch. Can
someone tell me how much material extends behind the rear bulkhead on an
untrimmed spinner? Replacing the spinner would be preferable to me
rather than adding fiberglass. Mine is trimmed even with the bulkhead,
and I don't remember how much of it I trimmed away.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 200 HP Angle valve engine
In a message dated 8/29/2006 11:33:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rickgray@adelphia.net writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: <rickgray@adelphia.net>
Not sure which prop you have but...on the C/S Hartzell there are
shims put in when you fit the spinner to set the backplate
distance....you may gain some 'working area' by looking at the shims.
Also.....I'd be tempted to look at my spinner and rework some fiberglass
to the back end thus 'extending' the spinner back at tad over the rear
bulkhead....this would be a LOT easier and quicker than working on the
cowls...I've done a handful of RV's and a couple rebuilds/finishes for
others....ask me how I know.
Good Luck
Rick at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
> Thought about shimming the mount away from the firewall? I know
it has been done before on RVs when folks upgraded from FP to CS props,
and the spinner ended up further away from the cowl...
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:13 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
>
>
>
> With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
>
> I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A
recently. When I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap
between the spinner and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see
all the innards.
>
> I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I
was told that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must
be something else causing the problem. Since I am using the same
everything else, I can't see what else it could be. With the engine
mounted and 2 weeks of connecting up everything already done, I am
stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch doesn't sound like much, but The
airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now going to have to do
major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross errors in the
engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you build your
airplane because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built into
your mount, or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that
all these airplanes are different!
>
> Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its
still a great airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
>
> do not archive
>
> Dan Hopper
> RV-7A 175 hours and holding
>
>
>
> es Day --> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
bsp; --> nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
Doh! Got my brain on backwards this morning. Good thing I'm not
flying.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
Hi Dan,
Err, uh, that would make the problem even worse!
Dan H
In a message dated 8/29/2006 11:12:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dan@rvproject.com writes:
Thought about shimming the mount away from the firewall? I know it
has been done before on RVs when folks upgraded from FP to CS props, and
the spinner ended up further away from the cowl...
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hopperdhh@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:13 AM
Subject: RV-List: Engine mount out of spec
With the recent thread, this will sound like whining, but ...
I had to replace the engine mount and nose gear leg on my -7A
recently. When I put the cowling back on I now have about 5/8 inch gap
between the spinner and cowl -- gross. You can look in there and see
all the innards.
I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I
was told that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must
be something else causing the problem. Since I am using the same
everything else, I can't see what else it could be. With the engine
mounted and 2 weeks of connecting up everything already done, I am
stuck. Now 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch doesn't sound like much, but The
airplane was already too nose heavy, and I am now going to have to do
major fiberglass work on the cowl to correct the gross errors in the
engine mount. You can't know about these tolerances when you build your
airplane because you trim the cowl to fit whatever errors are built into
your mount, or anything else on the plane. I can see why Van says that
all these airplanes are different!
Its still a great airplane. Its still a great airplane. Its
still a great airplane. I have to keep reminding myself of that!
do not archive
Dan Hopper
RV-7A 175 hours and holding
com/Navigator?RV-List
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?RV-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
ronics.com/">http://wiki.matronics.com
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a pressure recovery
wheel pant as opposed to a regurlar wheel pant?
Dave Nellis
N416DN (Res.)
7A Emp
--- Dan Checkoway <dan@rvproject.com> wrote:
> Fingertip width clearance imho. Your finger may
> vary... ;-)
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derrick Aubuchon
> To: RV List
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:44 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Van's Wheel Fairings
>
>
> I am replacing (finally!) my original, old style
> wheel fairings, for Van's "new" Pressure Recovery
> fairings.
> Any ideas on what works best for a minimal
> tire-to-faring clearance around the lower opening?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Derrick L. Aubuchon
>
> RV-4: N184DA (450+ hrs)
>
> Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
>
> n184da@volcano.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Engine mount out of spec |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/29/06 10:16:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hopperdhh@aol.com writes:
> I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was told
> that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be
something
> else causing the problem. Since I am using the same everything else, I
can't
> see what else it could be. With the engine mounted and 2 weeks of
connecting
> up everything already done, I am stuck.
=================================
Dan:
Before you go through all that work, I would check one thing ... Check to see
if you have the thrust washers on in the correct order and correct location.
I have more info but first I need to know which engine and who's vibration
mounts? They wouldn't happen to be Lord?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. |
Jeff
I agree with you on using only torx screws and also with Charley on
using only 8-32 screws. I am installing the seat and baggage floors, the
baggage bulkheads, and the baggage side covers almost totally with SS
100 degree flush 6 lobe 8-32 machine screws. In a small number of
locations that will not accept flush screws/nutplates, I am using SS
button head 6 lobe 8-32 screws. These screws are available from Micro
Fasteners ( microfasteners.com ) ( 800-892-6917 ) Lebanon, NJ. They use
a standard Torx T-15 driver.
Dean Van Winkle
RV-9A Fuselage/ Finish/ Engine
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Dowling
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Attaching floors with nutplates.
I would consider using torx screws . I hate removing those #8 phillip
heads. Same with the seat panels and baggage panels.
Shemp/Jeff Dowling
RV-6A, N915JD
295 hours
Chicago/Louisville
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Sampson
To: rv-list
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Attaching floors with nutplates.
Is it OK to substitute nutplanes and #6 screws for LP4-3 rivets when
installing the floors? Thanks, Steve. RV4 #4478
com/Navigator?RV-List
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Try SPAMfighter for free now!
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
They have more rounded sides, front to back, with a taber toward the rear
that sort of reverses or becomes neutral at the trailing edge vs. the older
fairing which had more flat sides. Van made change in about 2000. New one
supposed to have less drag.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Nellis" <truflite@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's Wheel Fairings
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is a pressure recovery
> wheel pant as opposed to a regurlar wheel pant?
>
> Dave Nellis
> N416DN (Res.)
> 7A Emp
>
> --- Dan Checkoway <dan@rvproject.com> wrote:
>
> > Fingertip width clearance imho. Your finger may
> > vary... ;-)
> >
> > do not archive
> > )_( Dan
> > RV-7 N714D
> > http://www.rvproject.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Derrick Aubuchon
> > To: RV List
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:44 AM
> > Subject: RV-List: Van's Wheel Fairings
> >
> >
> > I am replacing (finally!) my original, old style
> > wheel fairings, for Van's "new" Pressure Recovery
> > fairings.
> > Any ideas on what works best for a minimal
> > tire-to-faring clearance around the lower opening?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Derrick L. Aubuchon
> >
> > RV-4: N184DA (450+ hrs)
> >
> > Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
> >
> > n184da@volcano.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
At 11:37 AM 8/29/2006, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
>
>Pardon my ignorance, but what is a pressure recovery
>wheel pant as opposed to a regurlar wheel pant?
The old style are narrower. I doubt that you need to worry about
having the old style.
Ron Lee
Do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bob Collins wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>> I don't even know why you would
>> waste time looking up what length bolt was called out, just
>> find a bolt
>> that fits and use it.
>
> Well, I'm probably a little anal in this area but I like to make sure all of
> the parts that the designers want in a connection of any importance are
> installed on the plane. So I actually use the plans more than the
> instructions because I like to make sure the waashers are where they're
> supposed to be around rod end bearings etc (I actually, just an aside, am
> kind of surprised when I look at a number of builders who graciously put
> their work online, how many rod end bearings are not surrounded by washers.
> And as a further aside, let me point out the value of -- of at least to me
> -- of the online log that pointed out the value of surrounding the TruTrak
> installation with washeres).
A HIGHLY recommended option for all builders, especially those with no
previous aircraft experience, is to put the following publication in
your shop and refer to it any time you are flummoxed about anything
construction related:
http://www.buildersbooks.com/4313.htm
A quick look at AC 43.13, Acceptable Methods of Aircraft Repair, can
tell you how to properly install bolts, utilize washers, torque
fasteners, install safety wiring, etc, etc, etc and will prevent you
from calling Vans and asking questions that make it sound like you are
clueless concerning aircraft construction.
It's true Vans is the manufacturer of the kit and has some
responsibility therein, but that doesn't remove our obligations as
builders to educate ourselves as much as possible about this endeavor we
have undertaken.
Sam Buchanan
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "c.ennis" <c.ennis@insightbb.com>
Lordy, Lordy, Rick,
I hope you know what a can of worms you have kicked over on the rug...Em,
Em, Em.
Charlie Ennis
RV6-A Slow Build
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>
>
> n223rv(at)wolflakeairport wrote:
>> .........If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints, build
>> an RV-4.... The RV-10 has best in class instructions. If you have an
>> issue with them, maybe another hobby would be better............
>
>
> Some time ago, a seasoned airline pilot with a wry wit observed that the
> airline travel experience was being rapidly reduced to just two classes of
> flyers.......First Class and Third World.
>
> As Van's kits and plans increasingly improve, the process has been
> democratized to the point that a whole new class of builder has emerged.
> Because of the advanced nature of todays kits, it is now possible to
> attract the masses. For the first time in history, it is possible for the
> marginally skilled (and that includes builders who have assembled nothing
> more complicated than a propane barbeque grill from Lowes or Home Depot),
> the impatient citizen long accustomed to instant gratification and his
> cousin....the first time builder and vocal critic who cannot adapt
> generally well written plans and callouts to a particular building
> situation. Such are the realities of an efficient marketplace. A place at
> the table for everyone.
>
> I'll go even further than that. I say a prepunched Quickbuild kit is to
> homebuilt aircraft construction what a Betty Crocker Warm Delights Molten
> Chocolate cake mix is to the culinary arts. It is generally conceded the
> devil?Ts food treat can be loosely described as ?ocake? but demanding
> purists with a discerning palate would naturally chafe at the notion and
> the ?ochef? a natural impulse to suggest a Herculean effort and
> superior cooking skill to produce a confection demanding little more than
> cup water and 1 minute, 45 seconds in the microwave. [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" (standard kit)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58209#58209
>
>
>
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
Derrick,
If you expect to fly from only asphalt and never have a tire low on
pressure..a 1/4 inch around is enough.
If on the other hand you will be flying in the real world, 5/8 inch is
the minimum side clearance I could stand. Front and rear of the tread I
use 1 inch which allows most of the grass I pick up from my home field
to exit without excessive buildup. Yes, I did start with 1/4 inch all
around and increased the clearance from there.
Your results may vary. ;-)
Charlie Ennis N60CE
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Aubuchon
To: RV List
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RV-List: Van's Wheel Fairings
I am replacing (finally!) my original, old style wheel fairings, for
Van's "new" Pressure Recovery fairings.
Any ideas on what works best for a minimal tire-to-faring clearance
around the lower opening?
Thanks,
Derrick L. Aubuchon
RV-4: N184DA (450+ hrs)
Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
n184da@volcano.net
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
I understand there is a high pressure area formed on the trailing portion of this
shape that in effect recovers some of the pressure required to push the leading
edge through the air.
I heard a story of a blimp with this shape collapsed the aft portion of the blimp
when sufficient speed and recoverd pressure was obtained.
Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a pressure recovery
wheel pant as opposed to a regurlar wheel pant?
Do not archive
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Engine mount out of spec |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/29/06 10:16:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hopperdhh@aol.com writes:
> I called Van's to see if perhaps I was sent the wrong mount. I was told
> that this spec on the mounts was +/- 1/16 inch, and there must be
something
> else causing the problem. Since I am using the same everything else, I
can't
> see what else it could be. With the engine mounted and 2 weeks of
connecting
> up everything already done, I am stuck.
=================================
Dan:
Before you go through all that work, I would check one thing ... Check to see
if you have the thrust washers on in the correct order and correct location.
I have more info but first I need to know which engine and who's vibration
mounts? They wouldn't happen to be Lord?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Duckett" <perfeng@3rivers.net>
My Lord Rick, you mean you heard all those timers go "DING" too...?
Nuff said! Gotta get back to important building stuff ...like trying to
decypher what the molecular differences are between AN and MS fasteners used
in an RV.
Jim D.
Please do not Archive!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>
>
> n223rv(at)wolflakeairport wrote:
>> .........If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints, build
>> an RV-4.... The RV-10 has best in class instructions. If you have an
>> issue with them, maybe another hobby would be better............
>
>
> Some time ago, a seasoned airline pilot with a wry wit observed that the
> airline travel experience was being rapidly reduced to just two classes of
> flyers.......First Class and Third World.
>
> As Van's kits and plans increasingly improve, the process has been
> democratized to the point that a whole new class of builder has emerged.
> Because of the advanced nature of todays kits, it is now possible to
> attract the masses. For the first time in history, it is possible for the
> marginally skilled (and that includes builders who have assembled nothing
> more complicated than a propane barbeque grill from Lowes or Home Depot),
> the impatient citizen long accustomed to instant gratification and his
> cousin....the first time builder and vocal critic who cannot adapt
> generally well written plans and callouts to a particular building
> situation. Such are the realities of an efficient marketplace. A place at
> the table for everyone.
>
> I'll go even further than that. I say a prepunched Quickbuild kit is to
> homebuilt aircraft construction what a Betty Crocker Warm Delights Molten
> Chocolate cake mix is to the culinary arts. It is generally conceded the
> devil?Ts food treat can be loosely described as ?ocake? but demanding
> purists with a discerning palate would naturally chafe at the notion and
> the ?ochef? a natural impulse to suggest a Herculean effort and
> superior cooking skill to produce a confection demanding little more than
> cup water and 1 minute, 45 seconds in the microwave. [Rolling Eyes]
>
> Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" (standard kit)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58209#58209
>
>
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Lordy, Lordy is right, all this and not one, Do Not Archive.
Just send the -10 guys some cheese to go with their whine.
'sides iffen ya'll R alooken fir a challenge, build the RV-4 Derivative
(what Van's himself calls them), (HRII for those in Rio Linda) 8*)
KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: "c.ennis" <c.ennis@insightbb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
> --> RV-List message posted by: "c.ennis" <c.ennis@insightbb.com>
>
> Lordy, Lordy, Rick,
> I hope you know what a can of worms you have kicked over on the rug...Em,
> Em, Em.
> Charlie Ennis
> RV6-A Slow Build
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:18 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>> n223rv(at)wolflakeairport wrote:
>>> .........If you think Van's plans need improvement on their prints,
>>> build an RV-4.... The RV-10 has best in class instructions. If you have
>>> an issue with them, maybe another hobby would be better............
>>
>>
>> Some time ago, a seasoned airline pilot with a wry wit observed that the
>> airline travel experience was being rapidly reduced to just two classes
>> of flyers.......First Class and Third World.
>>
>> As Van's kits and plans increasingly improve, the process has been
>> democratized to the point that a whole new class of builder has emerged.
>> Because of the advanced nature of todays kits, it is now possible to
>> attract the masses. For the first time in history, it is possible for
>> the marginally skilled (and that includes builders who have assembled
>> nothing more complicated than a propane barbeque grill from Lowes or Home
>> Depot), the impatient citizen long accustomed to instant gratification
>> and his cousin....the first time builder and vocal critic who cannot
>> adapt generally well written plans and callouts to a particular building
>> situation. Such are the realities of an efficient marketplace. A place
>> at the table for everyone.
>>
>> I'll go even further than that. I say a prepunched Quickbuild kit is to
>> homebuilt aircraft construction what a Betty Crocker Warm Delights Molten
>> Chocolate cake mix is to the culinary arts. It is generally conceded the
>> devil?Ts food treat can be loosely described as ?ocake? but demanding
>> purists with a discerning palate would naturally chafe at the notion and
>> the ?ochef? a natural impulse to suggest a Herculean effort and
>> superior cooking skill to produce a confection demanding little more than
>> cup water and 1 minute, 45 seconds in the microwave. [Rolling Eyes]
>>
>> Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" (standard kit)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58209#58209
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Jeff & Dean:
I like the look of Torx head screws and they work very well. But, why add a
part that is not, shall we say standard? If you are away from home and need
to do a little maintenance or something works its way down into no-man's land
... Your girlfriends diamond from the engagement ring. It will be just a
stumbling block to obtain a driver.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Trotter <ptrotter@acm.org>
I think some peope have missed the main point of this discussion. I don't
think anyone is arguing that a builder should not have a basic skill level
to build a plane or that he should be able to research all the appropriate
sources for information before doing something. In addition, very few are
saying that Van's instructions are inadequate. I think that the main point
is that if the instructions do make a statement on how to do something, then
that statement should be correct. Or, if the drawings show a particular
fastener, then that should also be correct. If there is no specific
information, then the builder should apply the appropriate thought and
research to find the answer, but builder's should not have to second guess
Van's instructions when they do contain specific information. I have found
that when Van's says something will fit, and it doesn't, then I am usually
doing something wrong, so I study it until I figure out what the problem is
and it usually fits properly in the end. However, spending a lot of time
trying to figure out why it doesn't work out like the drawing shows, only to
find the the drawing is incorrect, is very frustrating. In many cases no
information would be better than bad information, then I would just apply
the normal standards and move on.
Fixing the errors is not that big a deal. Van's is not a huge organization
with complicated procceses for this. All it would take is a short note on a
web page. Most of these they alraedy know about anyway and must share the
info internally as many times you will call them and get an answer like "Oh
yea, that should be.....". It would save them a lot of support time if they
would just post this information. A little effort could make a great
product even better.
Just my $.02, or maybe $.05 by now :-)
Do Not Archive
Paul Trotter
RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Attaching floors with nutplates. |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>I like the look of Torx head screws and they work very well. But, why add a
>part that is not, shall we say standard? If you are away from home and need
>to do a little maintenance or something works its way down into no-man's land
>... Your girlfriends diamond from the engagement ring. It will be just a
>stumbling block to obtain a driver.
You mean the torx driver is not in your travel kit? A fishing tackle box can
contain many items that will help you with repairs away from home.
Ron Lee
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Attaching floors with nutplates. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
You don't carry a tool kit?
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Attaching floors with nutplates.
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Jeff & Dean:
I like the look of Torx head screws and they work very well. But, why
add a
part that is not, shall we say standard? If you are away from home and
need
to do a little maintenance or something works its way down into no-man's
land
... Your girlfriends diamond from the engagement ring. It will be just
a
stumbling block to obtain a driver.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the
third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | TRUTRACK ADI Pilot 1 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ian Findlay" <ianjo7@bigpond.com>
Hello Listers,
I am new here so hope this works ok.
I am seriously considering purchase of Trutrack's ADI Pilot 1 as it is autopilot
and attitude instrument using one valuable panel hole in RV8 panel. The company
seems to have a first class reputation.
Has anyone out there had experience with this unit?
Ian from Downunder.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58334#58334
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
kitfoxmike wrote:
>well I do have a transmission shop and build todays transmissions and do the computer
systems and electronics.
>
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>
>
Darn wish you lived closer the transmission is going out in my 2002 Ford
(Fix Or Repair Daily) Ranger 4x4. :-)
Jerry
do not archive
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: Van's Wheel Fairings |
Derrick,
When I built my RV8 in 1999, I experimented with several wheelpant and
tire variations. My objective was to obtain the most speed and the
least drag possible. I found out that when I used any of the various
cheap tires, I needed at least a 1/2 inch clearance around the tire
casing, because when landing etc. the cheap tires would expand and rub
the wheelpant. I solved the problem by installing Goodyear Custom III
tires and tubes. The Custom III series has a much stiffer tred and side
casing and holds its shape even with a hard landing. Note: the lower
(closer to ground) you install the wheel pant, the faster you will go.
I tried Vans pressure recovery pants first and then went to Sam James
pressure recovery pants because they went faster and looked better.
Good luck with your project.
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
the fast one
1350 hours - it gets better every day
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Aubuchon
To: RV List
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 9:44 AM
Subject: RV-List: Van's Wheel Fairings
I am replacing (finally!) my original, old style wheel fairings, for
Van's "new" Pressure Recovery fairings.
Any ideas on what works best for a minimal tire-to-faring clearance
around the lower opening?
Thanks,
Derrick L. Aubuchon
RV-4: N184DA (450+ hrs)
Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
n184da@volcano.net
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Jerry Springer wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>
> kitfoxmike wrote:
>
>> well I do have a transmission shop and build todays transmissions and
>> do the computer systems and electronics.
>>
>
>
>> --------
>> kitfoxmike
>>
>>
> Darn wish you lived closer the transmission is going out in my 2002
> Ford (Fix Or Repair Daily) Ranger 4x4. :-)
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
Now, now, don't whine. (Pun intended) Rebuilding a tranny should be a
learning experience. (Yes, I've done it, a long time ago at age 19 with
a bad repair manual that didn't have all the details.)
Charlie
(are we having fun yet?) :-)
Message 43
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| Subject: | Attaching floors with nutplates. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Ditto. I've swapped many of the torx or hex screws I used initially out for
SS phillips for that very reason. Some places they make sense (forward
baggage floor still has hex cap screws, very helpful.) Other places,
there's no point (spinner). IMO.
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8, RV-7 VS
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com [mailto:FLYaDIVE@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 6:11 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Attaching floors with nutplates.
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> Jeff & Dean:
>
> I like the look of Torx head screws and they work very well.
> But, why add a part that is not, shall we say standard? If
> you are away from home and need to do a little maintenance or
> something works its way down into no-man's land ... Your
> girlfriends diamond from the engagement ring. It will be
> just a stumbling block to obtain a driver.
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
> "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick
> them the third time."
> Yamashiada
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Rant, question, suggestion: errors in plans/drawings |
--> RV-List message posted by: pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper)
Now you guys have got me worried.
I have the tail & wings done, the fuselage side and bottom skins drilled
to the fuselage and have moved on to the gearleg boxes . . . and have
found the instructions and plans to be fine with none of the errors
confusing others.
I have, however, spent many hours waving parts in the air until I figure
out what I am trying to do though!
Pete Cowper
RV8 #81139
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