---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/06/06: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:10 AM - Re: Fuel flow pulsation dampener (Jeff Point) 2. 02:02 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (RAS) 3. 02:28 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Jim Sears) 4. 04:13 AM - Re: Fuel flow pulsation dampener (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 5. 05:24 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Rick Galati) 6. 05:45 AM - RV Area at COPPERSTATE Regional EAA Fly-In (JAMES MCCHESNEY) 7. 06:21 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Chuck Jensen) 8. 06:32 AM - Re: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete (Tim Bryan) 9. 07:12 AM - Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Ron Lee) 10. 07:12 AM - Re: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete (Mike Robertson) 11. 07:37 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (linn Walters) 12. 07:57 AM - Re: XM Antenna through Fiberglass? (Dane Sheahen) 13. 10:04 AM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Tedd McHenry) 14. 10:08 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Paul Besing) 15. 10:54 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Paul Besing) 16. 11:04 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Richard McBride) 17. 11:07 AM - Baggage Compartment Temperatures (James H Nelson) 18. 11:19 AM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Tim Bryan) 19. 11:27 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Terry Watson) 20. 12:03 PM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Rob Prior (rv7)) 21. 12:45 PM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Tim Bryan) 22. 03:13 PM - Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (Roger Crandell) 23. 04:33 PM - Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? (JOHN STARN) 24. 05:22 PM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 25. 06:07 PM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Charlie England) 26. 06:12 PM - Re: 10 Vane Oil Cooler (Dale Walter) 27. 06:49 PM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Ron Lee) 28. 07:25 PM - Re: Baggage Compartment Temperatures (dick martin) 29. 08:19 PM - Re: 10 Vane Oil Cooler (Konrad L. Werner) 30. 09:12 PM - Re: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison (Paul Besing) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:00 AM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel flow pulsation dampener --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point I had a similar, but not quite so high, oscilation on my flow readings. I installed the dampener and it smoothed things out considerably. It's not much $ or much work to install, and I recommend it. Jeff Point RV-6 flying RV-8 preview plans Milwaukee >* >* > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:32 AM PST US From: "RAS" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? I disagree very strongly, placed oredr with Wicks and recived only half items ordered. Even some items which were supposed to be part of a wheelkit (not for RV) were missing, or short. No apologies, no contact beforehand. Aircraft Spruce is far better and keeps in touch and let you make a choice if items are on backorder. In addition if you order online it indicates if parts are in stock. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: passpat@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? BUY FROM WICKS IF AT ALL POSSIBLE PAT -----Original Message----- From: bertrv6@highstream.net To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 2:30 PM Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Hi: I have tried for the past two weeks, to call Spruce, to place a small order. This is not exageration, I have made at least eight calls, Starting at 12:00 my time, East Coast...to 4:30 PM.. No one ever answers, I have hold at one time for 3 minutes... I cannot understand, why sucessfull companies, ingnore this... I wrote a letter to Jim Irwin,, maybe I get a respond... If they want that one fax, or e-mail, they should say so....but then are they going to list correct prices?? I will not buy from them unless is absolutely necessary for me to do so.. Any one has had this problem ? Would like to hear suggestions.. Bert rv6a do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:34 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? I guess we can get bad service from anyone we deal with. I had a similar situation with ACS. It took over two months to get in an order that should have come in the first pass. The parts I really needed just dribbled in. I've not encountered that with Wicks. Around here, I talked with several others who had the same kinds of problems with ACS; so, I figured it was a company to not do business with. Later on, I helped another build a RV-9A. I had warned him of my problems with ACS; but, he tried them anyway. By the time he got his oil and fuel hoses, he was totally fed up with them. We can probably find poor service from any source we talk about; but, it's been my experience, and that of others, that Wicks has done a better job. Unfortunately, they don't have the same level of offerings as ACS. Like I said, I gave the company a second chance, as suggested. I was not satisfied. Jim in KY do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: RAS To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:01 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? I disagree very strongly, placed oredr with Wicks and recived only half items ordered. Even some items which were supposed to be part of a wheelkit (not for RV) were missing, or short. No apologies, no contact beforehand. Aircraft Spruce is far better and keeps in touch and let you make a choice if items are on backorder. In addition if you order online it indicates if parts are in stock. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: passpat@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? BUY FROM WICKS IF AT ALL POSSIBLE PAT -----Original Message----- From: bertrv6@highstream.net To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 2:30 PM Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Hi: I have tried for the past two weeks, to call Spruce, to place a small order. This is not exageration, I have made at least eight calls, Starting at 12:00 my time, East Coast...to 4:30 PM.. No one ever answers, I have hold at one time for 3 minutes... I cannot understand, why sucessfull companies, ingnore this... I wrote a letter to Jim Irwin,, maybe I get a respond... If they want that one fax, or e-mail, they should say so....but then are they going to list correct prices?? I will not buy from them unless is absolutely necessary for me to do so.. Any one has had this problem ? Would like to hear suggestions.. Bert rv6a do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- com/Navigator?RV-List ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:55 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel flow pulsation dampener --> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 9/6/06 2:44:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, l_klingmuller6@earthlink.net writes: > I have a J P fuel flow/fuel totalizer but are somewhat disappointed in the > fuel flow readings. These fluctuate constantly within a +/- up to 1 gl/hr > rate. Now my installation is not accordingly to the manufactures > recommendation which calls for 6 inches of straight line on the inlet and > outlet sides. I attached the sensor right to the gascolator out side since > this seems to be a much sounder installation scheme. > > Questions for those who have been there: Is it worthwhile (time, $) to > install the Dralle dampener?? > I do not recall seeing too many post on this subject on the list. Could not > find anything in the achieves. > > Lothar, 6A, 650 hrs ========================================= Lothar: I have installed 5 fuel flow totalizes, that extra length of straight run depends on how you hooked up the fittings. Especially if you did a 90 Deg turn in fuel flow before entering or leaving the transducer. I have never used the Dralle Dampener, ONLY a smooth flow of fuel is required. In one case where a 90 Deg turn was needed I had to fabricate a fitting with oversized bores and a cut away internal turn. This either reduced or eliminated internal restriction or caviation. Questions: The variance you are seeing, I guess you are seeing it during S&L flight? How is the accuracy of the instrument on Gallons Remaining? By playing with the 'k' factor you might take the gage from a borderline reading into a more stabilized reading without affecting the Gallons Remaining reading. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:44 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? From: "Rick Galati" --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" Over the past 6 years I have dealt with both companies frequently, literally spending thousands of dollars to support my addiction. As far as I am concerned, both Wicks and Spruce are national treasures. Both companies offer excellent service......generally. In my experience, Spruce's Jim Irwin will personally contact you relative to customer satisfaction issues or catalog suggestions. If you would like to see Spruce carry a particular item, by all means.....ask him....not necessarily the person who answers the phone. The fact that Spruce's catalog grows ever thicker by the year with a growing inventory of choices does not happen by accident. Nothing however, is perfect. On occasion, I have found Spruce's on-line ordering process to be flawed. It can sometimes be difficult to locate items you know they carry and at times prices are at variance with those posted in the print catalog. Just yesterday I placed a rather eclectic order and the on-line check-out cart indicated all the items were in stock. When the routine order confirmation arrrived via e-mail, it noted one item on backorder. I consider these to be a very minor frustrations and part of the price we sometimes pay for the convenience of e-commerce. As a people, we can be inclined towards instant gratification, the fast food expectation by another name. Well, homebuilt aircraft construction will puts the halts to that inclination very quickly. Instant gratification has no place in our hobby. I have become "almost" comfortable dealing with the frustration and deferred satisfactions that are an inevitable part of this hobby. Is it all worth it? Oh Yea....and then some. Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" 165 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=59900#59900 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:13 AM PST US From: "JAMES MCCHESNEY" Subject: RV-List: RV Area at COPPERSTATE Regional EAA Fly-In Hello RV Listers- My Name is Jim McChesney. In addition to working full time and building an RV-7A I am in charge of Aircraft Parking at Copperstate Regional EAA Fly-In. This year's fly-in will be held at the Casa Grande, Arizona municipal airport (CGZ) from October 26-29, 2006. http://www.copperstate.org/ The reason for this post is to see if there is any interest in having an RV-specific area on the main showplane ramp this year? And, if so, is there anyone available and willing to staff such an area? We always have a really good showing from the RV guys but unfortunately I just don't have the volunteer manpower to staff an RV parking area. One person would NOT be able to do this alone so we'd need to assemble a crew of 3-4 people (minimum) to man this area. If anyone is interested in taking charge of this area or working there, please contact me off list. The usual perks apply: free admission, free food, plenty of sun. Jim McChesney RV-7A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" I'm amused by the concern about 'spotty' service. The complainers have obvious never run a small business selling in small lots to small buyers that obsess over the cost of a Tinnerman washer. I'm sure Wicks and ACS both work their tails off to do the best they can. I have no knowledge of their particlarly circumstances but they undoubtably have to rely on a low paid workforce that is not always reliable. Why hire cheap, unreliable help...because their customer's demand 'cheap'. It all falls under the 'you get what you pay for', so a little forebearance is in order. If it'll help you cope, just be pleased and surprised with something is shipped on time and correctly. Lowered expectations is a good anti-dote for disappointment. Personal opinion: Given the low margins they work with, both Wicks and ACS give good to exemplary service. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:00 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete Hi Mike, Thank You. I am expecting to get my inspection for AW in about two weeks =2E I want to fly enough hours to be sure I am comfortable with the plane and eliminate any squaks. How long do I need to allow to obtain the ferry permit? Thanks Tim -------Original Message------- From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete Tim, Call me at (503) 615-3237 and I will give you a hand to get a Ferry permi t to Texas. Mike Robertson From: flyrv6@bryantechnology.com Subject: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete Hi Listers, I am planning to move to Texas from Oregon in mid to late October. My pl ane will have been inspected and maybe 15 hours flown off by then. I asked m y DAR if I could get a ferry permit to move it to Texas. Since it crosses several teritorries, he was not certain. Has anybody ever done this? I definately want to have enough time on the plane to be comfortable and have any issues worked out. But will need to establish a new phase one a rea once it is relocated. Tim RV-6 N616TB t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List p://forums.matronics.com //wiki.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! Talk now! ========== ========== ========== ========== ========== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:25 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >Yesterday I had the chance to compare my Lightspeed (LS) Twenty 3G headsets against a pair of Bose. This is a quick, non-scientific review. I could detect an improvement in noise reduction with the Bose but suspect that the difference would be minimal or non-existent with a pair of LS Thirty 3G headsets (6 db better active noise reduction than Twenty 3G). The ear clamping force on the Bose was less which I thought would make them less effective in reducing noise. I was wrong. The Bose weighs about 120 grams (4 ounces) less. The earcup assemblies are about an inch thinner on the Bose. I did not wear the Bose for the entire flight so I can't make any comments about it being more comfortable but it is nice. It looks sleeker because of the smaller earcup assemblies. Bottom line is that I don't know that it would be worth $400 more than a pair of LS 30-3Gs. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:26 AM PST US From: "Mike Robertson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete If you get 25 hours on your phase one test flight period then you will need a minimum of 10 hours and have no mechanical discrepancies. If you have a 40 hours test period then you will need at least 15 hours and have no outs tanding discrepancies. You will also have to plot a route including all fu el stops. Needless to say the route must be over sparsely populated areas. Going from Bend to anywhere in Texas, that shouldn't be a problem. Mike list@matronics.comSubject: RE: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete Hi Mike, Thank You. I am expecting to get my inspection for AW in about two weeks. I want to fly enough hours to be sure I am comfortable with the plane and eliminate any squaks. How long do I need to allow to obtain the ferry perm it? Thanks Tim -------Original Message------- From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one complete Tim, Call me at (503) 615-3237 and I will give you a hand to get a Ferry p ermit to Texas. Mike Robertson list@matronics.comSubject: RV-List: Relocating plane prior to phase one com plete Hi Listers, I am planning to move to Texas from Oregon in mid to late October. My plan e will have been inspected and maybe 15 hours flown off by then. I asked m y DAR if I could get a ferry permit to move it to Texas. Since it crosses several teritorries, he was not certain. Has anybody ever done this? I definately want to have enough time on the plane to be comfortable and ha ve any issues worked out. But will need to establish a new phase one area once it is relocated. Tim RV-6 N616TB t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List p://forums.matronics.com //wiki.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! Talk now! p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List onics.com s.com ww.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________________________ Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=7adb59de-a857-45ba-81cc- 685ee3e858fe ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:54 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? It's been a long time since I was in the parts ordering phase, but from the muttering, threats, and proposed dire consequences of those watching their bank account slowly dry up ..... there ain't nobody out there perfect. If you have a bad experience, maybe it's just your turn! In this age of instant gratification, picture this scenario ......... Vendor X (pick your favorite one) finds a really neat widget, and stocks 20 of them, and puts them in the online catalog and database. Joe 'big time' builder sees the widget, and has to have it. He installs the widget, loves it and then rants on the X list (again, pick your favorite one or many!) about how it reallyb works and saves ya big buck down the road. 700 listers read the email, and only 200 go online to the link provided and see there are still 19 widgets left. Hit the purchase button, enter your credit card info and sit back with much anticipation. Gotta have that widget!!!! Now pan to stage right where Vendor X starts filling that mountain of orders, and in one hour, the stock goes from 19 to zippo. There are now 181 backorders and purchasing is notified. Well, the backorder ed part goes into the que along with the other 264,789 items that are on 'bin low' status (remember that Vendor X has a 3" thick catalog of stuff ..... it's the reason you do business with them) ...... and they slog through the paperwork to order new stock. Your widget takes two weeks to make it to the top of the queue ..... and purchasing can't get hold of the MFGR because they're shut down for summer vacation and all four people are enjoying their time off. Meanwhile, Joe 'big time' builder has been calling everyday, along with the other 180 builders on the widget backorder list (by some stroke of luck, all the other orders have been filled ;-) ) and customer service is trying hard to answer the phone while listening to 180 different reasons why their project is most important and should bubble to the top of the backorder list immediately ........ and the phone keeps ringing, and the phone queue keeps getting longer ...... Well, so much for the scenario ..... one really neat widget has managed to p..s off 181 builders who rant on the list about the poor service of Vendor X .... which creates an exponential amount of emails extolling the virtues or failures of Vendor X. Solly Cholly! Crap happens in the real world. Me??? I'm just damn thankful I have two companies (mainly Wicks and ACS&S) that I can go to and get parts. Oh yeah, the order for 200 widgets made enough profit for the widget makers that they decided to retire and bail out of the ratrace ...... nad now Vendor X is looking for another supplier! Sorry for the creativity and loss of bandwidth, but I was on a roll!!! Linn do not archive Soapbox available now! Jim Sears wrote: > I guess we can get bad service from anyone we deal with. I had a > similar situation with ACS. It took over two months to get in an > order that should have come in the first pass. The parts I really > needed just dribbled in. I've not encountered that with Wicks. > Around here, I talked with several others who had the same kinds of > problems with ACS; so, I figured it was a company to not do > business with. Later on, I helped another build a RV-9A. I had > warned him of my problems with ACS; but, he tried them anyway. By the > time he got his oil and fuel hoses, he was totally fed up with > them. We can probably find poor service from any source we talk > about; but, it's been my experience, and that of others, that Wicks > has done a better job. Unfortunately, they don't have the same level > of offerings as ACS. Like I said, I gave the company a second chance, > as suggested. I was not satisfied. > > Jim in KY > do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:54 AM PST US From: "Dane Sheahen" Subject: RE: RV-List: XM Antenna through Fiberglass? Mike Do you have metal flake paint on the fiberglass? Dick Martin informed me it did affect his antennas in his wing tips. I assume it would do the same in receiving the XM signal Dane Sheahen N838RV RV8a Subject: RV-List: XM Antenna through Fiberglass? I have had success mounting the GPS antenna under the fiberglass cowl, so I thought I'd try it with my XM antenna. It seems to work, but not as well. The weather seems to take longer to download and the music is spotty at times. I don't know if it is because I have it close to the baffles and it may be blocking reception during climbs in certain directions, or if it is because of the fiberglass. Has anyone had success mounting theirs under fiberglass?? Does anyone know if it should work? Thanks -Mike Kraus RV-4 flying RV-10 building ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:43 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry I have two pairs of Lightspeed headsets that I'm happy with the performance of. But earlier this year I had a problem with one and called Lightspeed for help. I was told that my model is no longer supported and they don't stock parts for it, but they invited me to upgrade to a newer model. I really don't think it's too much to ask that a company support and stock parts for a headset that's less than ten years old, so I wasn't very impressed with that. Fortunately, the problem turned out to be only a broken wire. But when an actual Lightspeed part eventually fails the headset will be scrap. I doubt that would happen with a David Clark, at the same age. --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:15 AM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? There's a rumor going around that if you live on the west coast, your service with ACS is better than if you live on the east coast. I have never had a problem with them when the parts came from their california location...I have had one or two issues from what I recall if they came from the east coast location...too strange..I do remember talking with someone who has heard the same thing. Live close to CA, get fine service and delivery..east coast, maybe not. Central? Well, like rolling the dice I guess. Paul Besing Jim Sears wrote: I guess we can get bad service from anyone we deal with. I had a similar situation with ACS. It took over two months to get in an order that should have come in the first pass. The parts I really needed just dribbled in. I've not encountered that with Wicks. Around here, I talked with several others who had the same kinds of problems with ACS; so, I figured it was a company to not do business with. Later on, I helped another build a RV-9A. I had warned him of my problems with ACS; but, he tried them anyway. By the time he got his oil and fuel hoses, he was totally fed up with them. We can probably find poor service from any source we talk about; but, it's been my experience, and that of others, that Wicks has done a better job. Unfortunately, they don't have the same level of offerings as ACS. Like I said, I gave the company a second chance, as suggested. I was not satisfied. Jim in KY do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: RAS To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:01 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? I disagree very strongly, placed oredr with Wicks and recived only half items ordered. Even some items which were supposed to be part of a wheelkit (not for RV) were missing, or short. No apologies, no contact beforehand. Aircraft Spruce is far better and keeps in touch and let you make a choice if items are on backorder. In addition if you order online it indicates if parts are in stock. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: passpat@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? BUY FROM WICKS IF AT ALL POSSIBLE PAT -----Original Message----- From: bertrv6@highstream.net Sent: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 2:30 PM Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? .AOLPlainTextBody { FONT-SIZE: 12px; MARGIN: 0px; COLOR: #000; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff } .AOLPlainTextBody PRE { FONT-SIZE: 9pt } .AOLInlineAttachment { MARGIN: 10px } .AOLAttachmentHeader { BORDER-RIGHT: #7da8d4 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #7da8d4 1px solid; BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; FONT: 11px arial; BORDER-LEFT: #7da8d4 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #7da8d4 1px solid } .AOLAttachmentHeader .Title { PADDING-RIGHT: 3px; PADDING-LEFT: 3px; BACKGROUND: #b5ddfa; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3px; FONT: 11px arial; PADDING-TOP: 3px } .AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldLabel { PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 9px; BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1px; FONT: 11px arial; COLOR: #000000; PADDING-TOP: 1px } .AOLAttachmentHeader .FieldValue { BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; FONT: 11px arial; COLOR: #000000 } .AOLAttachmentHeader A { COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .AOLImage A { COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: none } .AOLAttachmentHeader A:hover { COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } .AOLImage A:hover { COLOR: #2864b4; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } BODY { BORDER-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: "Verdana"; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white } P { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } IMG.managedImg { WIDTH: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px } IMG.placeholder { BORDER-RIGHT: #dadad6 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #dadad6 1px solid; BACKGROUND: #f4f4f4 no-repeat center center; BORDER-LEFT: #dadad6 1px solid; WIDTH: 275px; BORDER-BOTTOM: #dadad6 1px solid; HEIGHT: 206px } --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Hi: I have tried for the past two weeks, to call Spruce, to place a small order. This is not exageration, I have made at least eight calls, Starting at 12:00 my time, East Coast...to 4:30 PM.. No one ever answers, I have hold at one time for 3 minutes... I cannot understand, why sucessfull companies, ingnore this... I wrote a letter to Jim Irwin,, maybe I get a respond... If they want that one fax, or e-mail, they should say so....but then are they going to list correct prices?? I will not buy from them unless is absolutely necessary for me to do so.. Any one has had this problem ? Would like to hear suggestions.. Bert rv6a do not archive --------------------------------- com/Navigator?RV-List com/Navigator?RV-List --------------------------------- All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:34 AM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? Good points, Linn...basic supply chain issues here, and the scenario about all four people taking off for the summer is so true...lots of small businesses sell to ACS (including myself). Fortunately, making CD's for shipment isn't a big deal for me. Paul Besing linn Walters wrote: It's been a long time since I was in the parts ordering phase, but from the muttering, threats, and proposed dire consequences of those watching their bank account slowly dry up ..... there ain't nobody out there perfect. If you have a bad experience, maybe it's just your turn! In this age of instant gratification, picture this scenario ......... Vendor X (pick your favorite one) finds a really neat widget, and stocks 20 of them, and puts them in the online catalog and database. Joe 'big time' builder sees the widget, and has to have it. He installs the widget, loves it and then rants on the X list (again, pick your favorite one or many!) about how it reallyb works and saves ya big buck down the road. 700 listers read the email, and only 200 go online to the link provided and see there are still 19 widgets left. Hit the purchase button, enter your credit card info and sit back with much anticipation. Gotta have that widget!!!! Now pan to stage right where Vendor X starts filling that mountain of orders, and in one hour, the stock goes from 19 to zippo. There are now 181 backorders and purchasing is notified. Well, the backorder ed part goes into the que along with the other 264,789 items that are on 'bin low' status (remember that Vendor X has a 3" thick catalog of stuff ..... it's the reason you do business with them) ...... and they slog through the paperwork to order new stock. Your widget takes two weeks to make it to the top of the queue ..... and purchasing can't get hold of the MFGR because they're shut down for summer vacation and all four people are enjoying their time off. Meanwhile, Joe 'big time' builder has been calling everyday, along with the other 180 builders on the widget backorder list (by some stroke of luck, all the other orders have been filled ;-) ) and customer service is trying hard to answer the phone while listening to 180 different reasons why their project is most important and should bubble to the top of the backorder list immediately ........ and the phone keeps ringing, and the phone queue keeps getting longer ...... Well, so much for the scenario ..... one really neat widget has managed to p..s off 181 builders who rant on the list about the poor service of Vendor X .... which creates an exponential amount of emails extolling the virtues or failures of Vendor X. Solly Cholly! Crap happens in the real world. Me??? I'm just damn thankful I have two companies (mainly Wicks and ACS&S) that I can go to and get parts. Oh yeah, the order for 200 widgets made enough profit for the widget makers that they decided to retire and bail out of the ratrace ...... nad now Vendor X is looking for another supplier! Sorry for the creativity and loss of bandwidth, but I was on a roll!!! Linn do not archive Soapbox available now! Jim Sears wrote: I guess we can get bad service from anyone we deal with. I had a similar situation with ACS. It took over two months to get in an order that should have come in the first pass. The parts I really needed just dribbled in. I've not encountered that with Wicks. Around here, I talked with several others who had the same kinds of problems with ACS; so, I figured it was a company to not do business with. Later on, I helped another build a RV-9A. I had warned him of my problems with ACS; but, he tried them anyway. By the time he got his oil and fuel hoses, he was totally fed up with them. We can probably find poor service from any source we talk about; but, it's been my experience, and that of others, that Wicks has done a better job. Unfortunately, they don't have the same level of offerings as ACS. Like I said, I gave the company a second chance, as suggested. I was not satisfied. Jim in KY do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:11 AM PST US From: "Richard McBride" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? Well I can address that one. I've done more than my fair share of business with ACS (and Wicks and others) since 1986 for the refurb of a '53 PA-22, the construction of an RV-6 and an RV-8 and now a Rans S-7S. During that time, due to my vagabond existence thanks to Uncle Sam, I've been stationed in North Carolina, San Antonio, TX, Rochester, NY, Chicago, IL, Atlanta, GA and now Washington DC. During that time and at all of those locations I have never had a timeliness issue with order delivery from ACS. In fact, since they opened (bought) the GA operation I usually get my orders within two to three working days (standard delivery) here in Virginia. My most recent experiences with Wicks is slightly longer and with Van's well over a week to ten days; but they have a further distance to travel. Both ACS and Wicks have always delivered as expected. We're fortunate that we have both suppliers to service our needs, it could be a lot worse. Rick McBride ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Besing To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:07 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? There's a rumor going around that if you live on the west coast, your service with ACS is better than if you live on the east coast. I have never had a problem with them when the parts came from their california location...I have had one or two issues from what I recall if they came from the east coast location...too strange..I do remember talking with someone who has heard the same thing. Live close to CA, get fine service and delivery..east coast, maybe not. Central? Well, like rolling the dice I guess. Paul Besing Jim Sears wrote: I guess we can get bad service from anyone we deal with. I had a similar situation with ACS. It took over two months to get in an order that should have come in the first pass. The parts I really needed just dribbled in. I've not encountered that with Wicks. Around here, I talked with several others who had the same kinds of problems with ACS; so, I figured it was a company to not do business with. Later on, I helped another build a RV-9A. I had warned him of my problems with ACS; but, he tried them anyway. By the time he got his oil and fuel hoses, he was totally fed up with them. We can probably find poor service from any source we talk about; but, it's been my experience, and that of others, that Wicks has done a better job. Unfortunately, they don't have the same level of offerings as ACS. Like I said, I gave the company a second chance, as suggested. I was not satisfied. Jim in KY do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: RAS To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:01 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? I disagree very strongly, placed oredr with Wicks and recived only half items ordered. Even some items which were supposed to be part of a wheelkit (not for RV) were missing, or short. No apologies, no contact beforehand. Aircraft Spruce is far better and keeps in touch and let you make a choice if items are on backorder. In addition if you order online it indicates if parts are in stock. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: passpat@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? BUY FROM WICKS IF AT ALL POSSIBLE PAT -----Original Message----- From: bertrv6@highstream.net To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 2:30 PM Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Hi: I have tried for the past two weeks, to call Spruce, to place a small order. This is not exageration, I have made at least eight calls, Starting at 12:00 my time, East Coast...to 4:30 PM.. No one ever answers, I have hold at one time for 3 minutes... I cannot understand, why sucessfull companies, ingnore this... I wrote a letter to Jim Irwin,, maybe I get a respond... If they want that one fax, or e-mail, they should say so....but then are they going to list correct prices?? I will not buy from them unless is absolutely ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:34 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Baggage Compartment Temperatures From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Hi Dick, What was that 3M tape you were talking about. I'd like to explore using it on my fire wall. Jim Nelson ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:45 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison At ten years this could very well be the case with your 50K car. After t en years the parts start to dry up. Unless the aftermarket picks up the mol ds or it is a component that is available through the local auto zone. Tim Do Not Archive. -------Original Message------- From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry I have two pairs of Lightspeed headsets that I'm happy with the performan ce of. But earlier this year I had a problem with one and called Lightspeed for help. I was told that my model is no longer supported and they don't stock part s for it, but they invited me to upgrade to a newer model. I really don't think it's too much to ask that a company support and stoc k parts for a headset that's less than ten years old, so I wasn't very impressed with that. Fortunately, the problem turned out to be only a broken wire. But when an actual Lightspeed part eventually fails the headset will be scrap =2E I doubt that would happen with a David Clark, at the same age. --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ========== ========== ========== ========== ========== ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:42 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? I have been quite pleased with Aircraft Spruce over the last couple of years. A few months ago I screwed up an on-line order and within a few minutes had an email from them telling me that I had provided an invalid credit card number. A few minutes later I received a call from them to straighten it out. I also see that they now provide virtually instant email quotes on avionics that they don't show prices for in their catalog. I get the impression that they have worked hard and successfully to correct previous inadequacies in their service. Unlike a few years ago, I now like to buy from them. Terry ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:20 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 11:18:51 2006-09-06 "Tim Bryan" wrote: > At ten years this could very well be the case with your 50K car. > After ten years the parts start to dry up. Unless the aftermarket > picks up the molds or it is a component that is available through the > local auto zone. Tim Maybe if it's american-made... But i've never had problems obtaining parts for 15-20 year old japanese cars or motorcycles. Honda always seems to have parts. You'll just have to pay exorbitant amounts of money for them... -Rob ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:42 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison Good point Rob. Tim Do Not Archive -------Original Message------- From: Rob Prior (rv7) Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 11:18:51 2006-09-06 "Tim Bryan" wrote: > At ten years this could very well be the case with your 50K car. > After ten years the parts start to dry up. Unless the aftermarket > picks up the molds or it is a component that is available through the > local auto zone. Tim Maybe if it's american-made... But i've never had problems obtaining part s for 15-20 year old japanese cars or motorcycles. Honda always seems to have parts. You'll just have to pay exorbitant amounts of money for them =2E.. -Rob ========== ========== ========== ========== ========== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:10 PM PST US From: "Roger Crandell" Subject: RV-List: RE: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? --> RV-List message posted by: "Roger Crandell" I have ordered from ACS for about 6 years and must state they have always provided me with outstanding service and pricing. Because of my remote location, I order many items using the internet. ACS is one of, if not the best I have ever dealt with. How many internet businesses will ship instock items immediately and later ship the backordered items free of charge? Roger Crandell _________________________________________________________________ Got something to buy, sell or swap? Try Windows Live Expo ttp://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com/ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:26 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce terrible Service? --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" I don't need to defend Jim or ACS but I'll been purchasing from them for more years than I care to remember. When I started buying there was only one store in an old vacated wooden warehouse right next to the RR tracks (complete with loading docks for RR cars) in Fullerton. I had my Plumbing & A/C business about a block away on Harbor Blvd. I was the guy that took orders from pilot friends & did the will call. I tried to not be at ACS between 2 and 4 pm because that's when the long trains came by & the building shook & there was dust (think the building may have been used for grain storage) everywhere. I was impressed by the staff that did a quick clean up & got back to business. Phone calls as the trains went by, forget it. My impression of the new store(s) and the service has not changed. If they have it, you get it. They are upfront if they don't have it & when they "might" be able to have it to you. I place my orders via phone & on-line and have some split orders...some items shipped from CA & the rest from GA. Their return/replacement has never been a problem for me, their mistake or mine. KABONG Do Not Archive. (GBA & GWB) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:37 PM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison I agree with Ron. I bought the Bose & Lightspeed at the same time.....tried them both and sent the Bose back. Not worth the additional cost in my opinion. Doug Preston RV-7 N731RV (For Sale) RV-7A N196VA ( 26 hours) RV-10 (Getting close) DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:50 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Tedd McHenry wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > >I have two pairs of Lightspeed headsets that I'm happy with the performance of. >But earlier this year I had a problem with one and called Lightspeed for help. >I was told that my model is no longer supported and they don't stock parts for >it, but they invited me to upgrade to a newer model. > >I really don't think it's too much to ask that a company support and stock >parts for a headset that's less than ten years old, so I wasn't very impressed >with that. Fortunately, the problem turned out to be only a broken wire. But >when an actual Lightspeed part eventually fails the headset will be scrap. I >doubt that would happen with a David Clark, at the same age. > >--- > >Tedd McHenry >Surrey, BC, Canada > Hi Tedd, Since I'm the originator of the recent 'rant' controversy, I thought I might play 'devil's advocate' for a change. I feel your frustration, since I just went through the exact same issue with a pair of 20K's (which I bought used, from an individual) and a pair of 15XL's that I bought new. My experience was that the tech guy said that they *might* not be able to fix the 20K's; I could trade them up if I wanted; but send them anyway & they'd take a look. I just got both sets back today, repaired, no charge, including wear items like the pads (2nd time, free, on the 15XL's). I was planning to write the list tonight to praise LS for their excellent service when I read your post. Here's my 'devil's advocate' position: When I ran a consumer electronics repair company in a previous life (no sales; just repair) & we had to tell a customer that their stereo/tv/vcr/etc wasn't worth fixing, most got really frustrated with us, even though we didn't sell the product to them. My explanation usually ran something like, "I know it's only x years old, but you only paid y dollars for it. If you had paid 3 times y dollars for it, it would be worth fixing. I think you came out ahead, even though it's hard to adjust to 'disposable' products." Manufacturers of almost all products are pushing us into disposable products by jacking up the replacement parts prices so high they can stay legal (automotive, for example) by keeping just a couple of parts on a shelf somewhere priced at half the value of the product. The upside is that most mass produced products have gotten incredibly inexpensive relative to what they do. The LS headsets are (mostly) constructed of very inexpensive, often flimsy, parts. The purchase price, compared to the high end stuff, reflects it. One of the ways to keep costs down is not restocking custom parts after changing models (common practice; there's a particular relatively high dollar GPS brand that quit supplying even database updates after just 3 or 4 years, a while back). The impressive thing about LS is that I've never heard of anyone that paid for a repair on them, no matter what the age. Not so for some of the high end brands. The $1k brands can probably be fixed 'forever' but it's likely to cost almost as much as a new pair of LS for each repair. I can't stop without griping about something; they wouldn't let me trade in the 20K's on a pair of the new in-the-ear models. :-) Charlie ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:16 PM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RE: RV-List: 10 Vane Oil Cooler Barry, Our oil cooler came from Vans, 4/11/2001, part number 4215, per Vans invoice; "EA OIL COOLER 4215, OIL COOLER FOR IO-360". I had forgotten our cooler was for the IO and not the "O" model, but I would recommend it. We have the O-360, 180 hp. I will try to find the mfg info next time I take the bottom cowl off. Maybe Vans can tell you who makes the #4215. Pic attached. Dale -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: RV-List: 10 Vane Oil Cooler --> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hey Flight: Who is the manufacture and what is the part number for the 10 Vane Oil Cooler used on the RV-6 with an O-360? Thanks for the feedback, Barry ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:19 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison At 06:21 PM 9/6/2006, you wrote: >I agree with Ron. I bought the Bose & Lightspeed at the same >time.....tried them both and sent the Bose back. Not worth the additional >cost in my opinion. Doug was it the Lightspeed 20-3G or 30-3G? Ron Lee Do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:01 PM PST US From: "dick martin" Subject: Re: RV-List: Baggage Compartment Temperatures --> RV-List message posted by: "dick martin" Jim, It is called 3M VIBRATION DAMPING TAPE. It is used by commercial medium and large twin engine type repair and refurbishing companys. It is also used by none aviation users. Suggest you try 3M website for vendors in your area. Dick Martin RV8 N233M the fast one ----- Original Message ----- From: "James H Nelson" Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:05 PM Subject: RV-List: Baggage Compartment Temperatures > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > Hi Dick, > What was that 3M tape you were talking about. I'd like to > explore using it on my fire wall. > > Jim Nelson > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:05 PM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: 10 Vane Oil Cooler Dale, Yours looks like a PosiTech Cooler to me... do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Dale Walter To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: 10 Vane Oil Cooler Barry, Our oil cooler came from Vans, 4/11/2001, part number 4215, per Vans invoice; "EA OIL COOLER 4215, OIL COOLER FOR IO-360". I had forgotten our cooler was for the IO and not the "O" model, but I would recommend it. We have the O-360, 180 hp. I will try to find the mfg info next time I take the bottom cowl off. Maybe Vans can tell you who makes the #4215. Pic attached. Dale -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:09 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: 10 Vane Oil Cooler --> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hey Flight: Who is the manufacture and what is the part number for the 10 Vane Oil Cooler used on the RV-6 with an O-360? Thanks for the feedback, Barry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 9/6/2006 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:38 PM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: Re: RV-List: Bose versus Lightspeed headset comparison I still can't believe this continues to be a recurring thread. My opinion only, (not sure why it is not more common, though!) is that to ME it's worth the $1K for the quality, comfort, and most of all, piece of mind that I won't ever have to send them back....I don't care if LS sends me a new pair every time or repairs them...the bottom line is you have to send them back and be without headsets, pay shipping charges to LS, and frankly, is a pain in the rear. I'll reiterate from my previous posts...I've had the Bose X for 6 years now, and have about 1000 hours on a pair. The most of those hours were in and out of Cessnas while I was a flight instructor, in all kinds of heat, cold, rain, etc, and not one blip out of them in all that time. To ME, it's worth not every buying another pair, or having to send one back. Not to mention, I feel that they are far more comfortable, even if the ANR quality is close enough between the two. I now have two pairs of Bose X headsets for the above reasons and don't have the slightest regret for spending the money...especially when they have no interest over 12 months. We are airplane builders, flyers, etc..nobody said it was a cheap hobby! Again, my opinion only! Paul Besing Charlie England wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Tedd McHenry wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > >I have two pairs of Lightspeed headsets that I'm happy with the performance of. >But earlier this year I had a problem with one and called Lightspeed for help. >I was told that my model is no longer supported and they don't stock parts for >it, but they invited me to upgrade to a newer model. > >I really don't think it's too much to ask that a company support and stock >parts for a headset that's less than ten years old, so I wasn't very impressed >with that. Fortunately, the problem turned out to be only a broken wire. But >when an actual Lightspeed part eventually fails the headset will be scrap. I >doubt that would happen with a David Clark, at the same age. > >--- > >Tedd McHenry >Surrey, BC, Canada > Hi Tedd, Since I'm the originator of the recent 'rant' controversy, I thought I might play 'devil's advocate' for a change. I feel your frustration, since I just went through the exact same issue with a pair of 20K's (which I bought used, from an individual) and a pair of 15XL's that I bought new. My experience was that the tech guy said that they *might* not be able to fix the 20K's; I could trade them up if I wanted; but send them anyway & they'd take a look. I just got both sets back today, repaired, no charge, including wear items like the pads (2nd time, free, on the 15XL's). I was planning to write the list tonight to praise LS for their excellent service when I read your post. Here's my 'devil's advocate' position: When I ran a consumer electronics repair company in a previous life (no sales; just repair) & we had to tell a customer that their stereo/tv/vcr/etc wasn't worth fixing, most got really frustrated with us, even though we didn't sell the product to them. My explanation usually ran something like, "I know it's only x years old, but you only paid y dollars for it. If you had paid 3 times y dollars for it, it would be worth fixing. I think you came out ahead, even though it's hard to adjust to 'disposable' products." Manufacturers of almost all products are pushing us into disposable products by jacking up the replacement parts prices so high they can stay legal (automotive, for example) by keeping just a couple of parts on a shelf somewhere priced at half the value of the product. The upside is that most mass produced products have gotten incredibly inexpensive relative to what they do. The LS headsets are (mostly) constructed of very inexpensive, often flimsy, parts. The purchase price, compared to the high end stuff, reflects it. One of the ways to keep costs down is not restocking custom parts after changing models (common practice; there's a particular relatively high dollar GPS brand that quit supplying even database updates after just 3 or 4 years, a while back). The impressive thing about LS is that I've never heard of anyone that paid for a repair on them, no matter what the age. Not so for some of the high end brands. The $1k brands can probably be fixed 'forever' but it's likely to cost almost as much as a new pair of LS for each repair. I can't stop without griping about something; they wouldn't let me trade in the 20K's on a pair of the new in-the-ear models. :-) Charlie --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com