Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:31 AM - I've sworn off purge valve installations (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
2. 06:01 AM - Re: Stick Transfer function (Charlie Kuss)
3. 06:13 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (RVer273sb@aol.com)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: what site is it? (Bill VonDane)
5. 06:20 AM - Re: what site is it? (Bill VonDane)
6. 06:20 AM - Facet Pump Failure (Pete Howell)
7. 07:02 AM - Re: Facet Pump Failure (Finn Lassen)
8. 07:37 AM - Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies (Tim Bryan)
9. 07:44 AM - What do with with a bad three-layer joint... (Folbrecht, Paul)
10. 07:47 AM - Re: Governor/ Prop operation - Conclusion (Tim Bryan)
11. 09:07 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Charlie Kuss)
12. 09:39 AM - Re: What do with with a bad three-layer joint... (Kevin Horton)
13. 10:10 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
14. 11:38 AM - Test (Kevin Horton)
15. 11:38 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Sam Buchanan)
16. 12:20 PM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan Checkoway)
17. 02:56 PM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
18. 03:34 PM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Terry Watson)
19. 04:10 PM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations ()
20. 04:52 PM - Re: Facet Pump Failure (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
21. 05:27 PM - Re: Facet Pump Failure (Craig Hilling)
22. 06:00 PM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (sarg314)
23. 07:03 PM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (linn Walters)
24. 10:45 PM - Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies (shirleyh)
Message 1
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| Subject: | I've sworn off purge valve installations |
After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary and
can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats, to
dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have had 2
failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve is simple.
On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and allow the hot
vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and start your normal hot
start procedures.
On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit and
into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close to
home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and would
barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of troubleshooting, it
turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the purge return line.
This crack was allowing air into the return line, and hence air into the
fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I decided on my next plane,
I would NOT put the purge return line into the fuel supply system. This
failure could have put me and my wife in the trees.
On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought being,
let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let a line
leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RV's and
wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout in
NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wife's, but on Sunday
I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting. What I
found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely idle below
1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was plenty of fuel
going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked screens and a few
other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo not metering the
fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and climbing to
altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with altitude. Sure
enough, around 7k' I would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a
little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that
be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent it
to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the weekend
troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was leaking
internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the return side.
Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was causing lean
operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP for repair. I
also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to the return all
along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1, and unexplained
+1.5gph with my boost pump on.
In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine. Hot
starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn off
this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and multiple
failure modes.
Thought some of you might find this information useful.
Best,
Mike Stewart
Message 2
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| Subject: | Stick Transfer function |
Michele,
For MOST stick grips, your statement below is true. However, RAC's
newest grips, the G305 and G307 series, have hat switches which are
rated at 15 amps. This negates the need for relays, and simplifies
wiring. Most other grips use hat switches with a 1 amp rating.
Charlie Kuss
>With a tandem arrangement, dual control seems to require relays,
>both for flaps and for trims. I went for the RAC relays on the
>trims, a relay board from Aircraft Extras for the flaps. The neat
>part is that it is simple to isolate the rear pilot seat trims and
>flaps since the use of relays is based on connecting to ground. By
>isolating the rear pilot switch from ground, rear pilot trims and
>flap controls become inoperative.
>
>Michele
>RV8 Fuselage
>
>
>----------
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
>Sent: samedi 30 septembre 2006 02:44
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Stick Transfer function
>
>Mark,
> I wanted to have the same "absolute" control myself. I settled for
> using a four pole, double throw switch to control the electric trim
> and a three pole, double throw switch for the flaps. Center
> position of each switch is OFF, in case of a runaway. PPT can be
> handled by most intercom systems. I went with the RAC G307 grip,
> because it's 15 amp rated hat switch eliminates the need for trim
> servo relays. I've got AutoCAD schematics of both my Flap and
> Electric trim circuits. I'd be happy to send them to you, if you like.
> The switch part numbers are on the CAD drawings. I used the same
> Carling Technologies switches that B&C, Waytek Wire and others
> sell. I think I bought them from Mouser.
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
>snipped
>Next question. I am investigating how to swap all stick switch
>functions from L to R (Infinity grip) by some reliable, safe
>means. About 8 wires minimum (4-way trim, CWS, PTT, gnd). I would
>prefer a simple switch as opposed to using relays (4PDTx2) but I'm
>beginning to think there is no source for an 8PDT switch.
>
>Any suggestions or am I barking up the wrong tree and there's a
>simpler way to do this?
>
>THANKS!
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
I have 1400 hours running a purge valve
set up with no problems....
Stew RV-4
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: what site is it? |
that's nice, but not it... you could select filter requirements like no
of seats, configuration and speed and it would return only those
aircraft that meet your criteria...
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: what site is it?
Could be the Kitplanes directory:
http://www.kitplanes.com/aircraftdirectory/
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D "Priorities"
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill VonDane
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: what site is it?
Hey Jim... I didn't find it on there either...
-Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Duckett
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: what site is it?
Bill I know the one but I can't remember either. I think it is on a
link on Ron Wanttaja's web site - Sea and Sky
Jim D.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill VonDane
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 5:04 PM
Subject: RV-List: what site is it?
Ok.....about a year ago I found a cool site that would let you
search for different kitplanes based on seats, speed, configuration
etc... Now I cant find it again and am hoping one of you might know
what site I am talking about...
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
com/Navigator?RV-List
com/Navigator?RV-List
com/Navigator?RV-List
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: what site is it? |
ooops, it looks like the advanced search will do the filtering thing...
still not sure if this is it, but it does the trick...
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: what site is it?
Could be the Kitplanes directory:
http://www.kitplanes.com/aircraftdirectory/
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D "Priorities"
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill VonDane
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: what site is it?
Hey Jim... I didn't find it on there either...
-Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Duckett
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: what site is it?
Bill I know the one but I can't remember either. I think it is on a
link on Ron Wanttaja's web site - Sea and Sky
Jim D.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill VonDane
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 5:04 PM
Subject: RV-List: what site is it?
Ok.....about a year ago I found a cool site that would let you
search for different kitplanes based on seats, speed, configuration
etc... Now I cant find it again and am hoping one of you might know
what site I am talking about...
Thanks!
-Bill
do not archive
com/Navigator?RV-List
com/Navigator?RV-List
com/Navigator?RV-List
Message 6
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| Subject: | Facet Pump Failure |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
the unit.
Pete
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Facet Pump Failure |
--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
First I'd recommend you inspect it for foreign object stuck in it
preventing the piston from moving.
Finn
Pete Howell wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
>
>
>I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
>installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
>like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
>the unit.
>
>Pete
>
>
>
>
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | N616TB (RV-6) Flies |
All of the replies have been great advice regarding the heavy wing. Since
it is entirely within the realm of controllable flight, I will wait till a
few more flights are under my belt. I downloaded Van's document about this
as well.
On to flying and learning all new avionics.
Cheers
Tim
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: N616TB (RV-6) Flies
My RV-6 purchased in 1991 flew its first flight today. Yeah, the grin was
big.
>>>
WAY TO GO - perseverence award & all that stuff too! Do bear in mind that
the side-by-side RVs are pretty sensitive to fuel/passenger loading left to
right- I'd suggest you don't do anything until you get some more time and
have an opportunity to fly with same weight in both seats and gallons in
both tanks. My -6A will roll to whichever side is heavier- usually left
where my phat axe sits. One reason ya see so many wing levelers &
autopilots in these puppies! I know when I am balanced L/R when my Navaid
starts a slight left-right jiggle..
8-)
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips RV-6A "Mojo", 355 grin hours so far...
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | What do with with a bad three-layer joint... |
It turns out that match-drilling the trim-tab hinge (on both sides) was
easy and the whole thing went very well. The gap is uniform and perfect
and all the joints are great... except for one. I wasn't able to
effectively clamp on the outboard-most hole on the tab and didn't get a
tight joint. So, I drilled out that rivet and redid it, clamping as
best I could - and now it's worse. It's pretty darn ugly, with gaps
between the skin/spar AND spar/hinge, both around 1/64" probably.
I'm sure this happened due to the slight enlarging of the hole from the
drill-out although I did a perfect job on that.
I think the best thing to do here would be enlarge to 1/8" to use the
larger rivet, but there's no way to dimple/countersink for the larger
size, of course.
If I just drill it out and try again there's almost no way it will turn
out better and will probably be worse. What's the thing to do here??
Pre-squeezed rivet? This joint uses -4s and I don't have anything
longer, although I'm sure they're made and I could get some.
Thanks,
Paul
9A QB #1176
Nearing end of empennage
This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Governor/ Prop operation - Conclusion |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
Just to update everyone on this issue. After running the RPM up to around
2000 and doing slooow cycles of the prop, I began to receive a significant
RPM change. I didn't fly it until I had about 300 rpm difference. Thanks
for all the advice on this issue, it helped me a bunch
Tim
Do Not Archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denis Walsh
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:06 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Governor/ Prop operation
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
>
> First let's hope for the b est.
>
> !0 out of 10 people I know have had the same problem.
>
> It is typical for the first cycle of the prop/gov. Apparently the
> oil doesn't get up to the prop unless you "cycle it three times."
>
> So first thing go back out and run it up and pull that sucker out,
> count to two, then do it again. The third time is the charm.
>
> If that don't work get advice from someone else; however it has
> worked for every case I know of.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Denis Walsh
>
> On Sep 26, 2006, at 07:11 690820009, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
> >
> >
> > Hello Listers,
> >
> > My -6 just got its airworthy cert today. I took it out and fueled
> > it plus
> > taxi tested it. I did a run-up and found very little change when I
> > cycle
> > the prop. How do I begin to determine the problem with this?
> >
> > Thanks for any input
> > Tim
> > RV-6
> > N616TB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Mike
Thanks for your report. Could you tell me what type of aluminum
tubing you had used on your previous RV? Was it the 3003 Versitube
which Vans supplies? Or something else. Do you have any theory on why
that fuel line cracked?
Charlie Kuss
>After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
>injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary
>and can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
>As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
>terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats,
>to dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have
>had 2 failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve
>is simple. On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and
>allow the hot vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and
>start your normal hot start procedures.
>
>On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit
>and into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
>recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be
>too complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF,
>close to home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine
>coughed and would barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of
>troubleshooting, it turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on
>the purge return line. This crack was allowing air into the return
>line, and hence air into the fuel flow to the engine. After this
>incident I decided on my next plane, I would NOT put the purge
>return line into the fuel supply system. This failure could have put
>me and my wife in the trees.
>
>On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought
>being, let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let
>a line leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several
>RV's and wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing
>rollout in NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the
>wife's, but on Sunday I put wife on a Delta flight home and began
>troubleshooting. What I found was the plane was way lean in running
>and would barely idle below 1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the
>servo and there was plenty of fuel going in, but the engine was not
>getting it. I checked screens and a few other things and no joy. I
>decided it was the servo not metering the fuel properly. I finally
>decided I try taking off and climbing to altitude and see if mother
>nature would richen it with altitude. Sure enough, around 7k' I
>would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a little ROP. BUT
>the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that be? I
>dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
>
>Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and
>sent it to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent
>the weekend troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve
>was leaking internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the
>return side. Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This
>was causing lean operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this
>to AFP for repair. I also suspect that this valve has been sending
>fuel to the return all along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten
>from day 1, and unexplained +1.5gph with my boost pump on.
>
>In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
>aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for
>hot starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the
>engine. Hot starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have
>now sworn off this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an
>RV and multiple failure modes.
>
>Thought some of you might find this information useful.
>Best,
>Mike Stewart
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What do with with a bad three-layer joint... |
On 2 Oct 2006, at 10:43, Folbrecht, Paul wrote:
> It turns out that match-drilling the trim-tab hinge (on both sides)
> was easy and the whole thing went very well. The gap is uniform
> and perfect and all the joints are great=85 except for one. I wasn=92t
> able to effectively clamp on the outboard-most hole on the tab and
> didn=92t get a tight joint. So, I drilled out that rivet and redid
> it, clamping as best I could ' and now it=92s worse. It=92s pretty
> darn ugly, with gaps between the skin/spar AND spar/hinge, both
> around 1/64=94 probably.
>
> I=92m sure this happened due to the slight enlarging of the hole from
> the drill-out although I did a perfect job on that.
>
> I think the best thing to do here would be enlarge to 1/8=94 to use
> the larger rivet, but there=92s no way to dimple/countersink for the
> larger size, of course.
>
> If I just drill it out and try again there=92s almost no way it will
> turn out better and will probably be worse. What=92s the thing to do
> here?? Pre-squeezed rivet? This joint uses -4s and I don=92t have
> anything longer, although I=92m sure they=92re made and I could get
some.
This may be good place to use a NAS1097 rivet, commonly called an
"Oops rivet". The 1/8" size has a head that is the same size as a
3/32 rivet, so you could drill out the hole to 1/8", but not have to
dimple/countersink. And, as you know now, be sure to find a way to
clamp the joint tight before riveting. You have to get very creative
sometimes, but you are risking a bad rivet if you things aren't
clamped tightly together.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 13
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| Subject: | I've sworn off purge valve installations |
It would have been. But late in the build cycle, I met and became best
friends with a Delta mechanic who came into my project late and nearing
the first flight. He said "I aint letting you up there with that el
cheapo "Oh" tube as he called it. He proceeded to rip out every soft
aluminum tube I had and replaced it with stainless steel. Every piece!
Dozens of them! He was a master with this stuff and could take a couple
measurements with a steel ruler, and come back with a perfectly fitted
SS aircraft tube ready to go. Years in the hydraulics shop at the Delta
hub here in Atlanta and I guess you get pretty good with this stuff. So
I originally had in this picture here soft 3003, but it was replaced
with stainless steel. I pointed the arrow to where the crack was. Right
behind the b-nut sleeve. Again the pic, from a vintage late 90's digital
camera that only geeks were using at the time, is of soft tube but it
was SS that cracked ~800 hours as I recall.
http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/engtopcrack.jpg
My theory was that flex line should absolutely have been installed here.
That spider was no doubt bobbing around hung out there so far, while the
rear baffle was not moving much at all I suspect.
Mike
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Mike
Thanks for your report. Could you tell me what type of aluminum tubing
you had used on your previous RV? Was it the 3003 Versitube which Vans
supplies? Or something else. Do you have any theory on why that fuel
line cracked?
Charlie Kuss
After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary and
can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats, to
dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have had 2
failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve is simple.
On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and allow the hot
vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and start your normal hot
start procedures.
On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit and
into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close to
home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and would
barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of troubleshooting, it
turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the purge return line.
This crack was allowing air into the return line, and hence air into the
fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I decided on my next plane,
I would NOT put the purge return line into the fuel supply system. This
failure could have put me and my wife in the trees.
On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought being,
let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let a line
leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RV's and
wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout in
NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wife's, but on Sunday
I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting. What I
found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely idle below
1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was plenty of fuel
going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked screens and a few
other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo not metering the
fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and climbing to
altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with altitude. Sure
enough, around 7k' I would get egt's at peak, and at 10k' I could run a
little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than normal. How could that
be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew her home to Atlanta.
Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent it
to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the weekend
troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was leaking
internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the return side.
Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was causing lean
operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP for repair. I
also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to the return all
along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1, and unexplained
+1.5gph with my boost pump on.
In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine. Hot
starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn off
this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and multiple
failure modes.
Thought some of you might find this information useful.
Best,
Mike Stewart
Message 14
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--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
A test, to see if switching e-mail client to plain-text (I thought it
already was, honest) cleans up the displayed message in the forum view.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
> It would have been. But late in the build cycle, I met and became best
> friends with a Delta mechanic who came into my project late and nearing
> the first flight. He said I aint letting you up there with that el
> cheapo Oh tube as he called it. He proceeded to rip out every soft
> aluminum tube I had and replaced it with stainless steel. Every piece!
> Dozens of them! He was a master with this stuff and could take a couple
> measurements with a steel ruler, and come back with a perfectly fitted
> SS aircraft tube ready to go. Years in the hydraulics shop at the Delta
> hub here in Atlanta and I guess you get pretty good with this stuff. So
> I originally had in this picture here soft 3003, but it was replaced
> with stainless steel. I pointed the arrow to where the crack was. Right
> behind the b-nut sleeve. Again the pic, from a vintage late 90s digital
> camera that only geeks were using at the time, is of soft tube but it
> was SS that cracked ~800 hours as I recall.
Wonder if the softer, "cheap" aluminum line would have been less
susceptible than the stainless to cracking?
Sam Buchanan
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Baffles move/flex more than you might think. Personally, I'd only use HOSES
for critical fuel lines (especially the metered fuel supply!), and have the
hoses go uninterrupted, right through the baffles via a rubber
grommet...just my 2 cents!
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1082 hours w/purge valve & hoses)
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
>> It would have been. But late in the build cycle, I met and became best
>> friends with a Delta mechanic who came into my project late and nearing
>> the first flight. He said I aint letting you up there with that el
>> cheapo Oh tube as he called it. He proceeded to rip out every soft
>> aluminum tube I had and replaced it with stainless steel. Every piece!
>> Dozens of them! He was a master with this stuff and could take a couple
>> measurements with a steel ruler, and come back with a perfectly fitted SS
>> aircraft tube ready to go. Years in the hydraulics shop at the Delta hub
>> here in Atlanta and I guess you get pretty good with this stuff. So I
>> originally had in this picture here soft 3003, but it was replaced with
>> stainless steel. I pointed the arrow to where the crack was. Right behind
>> the b-nut sleeve. Again the pic, from a vintage late 90s digital camera
>> that only geeks were using at the time, is of soft tube but it was SS
>> that cracked ~800 hours as I recall.
>
>
> Wonder if the softer, "cheap" aluminum line would have been less
> susceptible than the stainless to cracking?
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Thanks for the writeup, Mike-
In deference to the KISS principle, how much hard evidence/experience is
there to support installation of a purge valve in an RV as opposed to certified
a/c where it may really be needed? Anyone tried starting their hot IOs without
it or done any actual testing to determine if it is really a necessity, or
something one "might" need once or twice a year under worst conditions? Thinking
here is to reduce fuel lines/fittings in a REALLY bad spot to have a failure
(and extra co$t) vs. a rare inconvenience which is not a safety-of-flight
issue...
Mark do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | I've sworn off purge valve installations |
I would also be concerned about shutting down the engine. AP's owner's
manual says that the mixture control will NOT reliably cut off fuel flow
enough to stop the engine.
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Thanks for the writeup, Mike-
In deference to the KISS principle, how much hard evidence/experience is
there to support installation of a purge valve in an RV as opposed to
certified a/c where it may really be needed? Anyone tried starting their
hot IOs without it or done any actual testing to determine if it is really a
necessity, or something one "might" need once or twice a year under worst
conditions? Thinking here is to reduce fuel lines/fittings in a REALLY bad
spot to have a failure (and extra co$t) vs. a rare inconvenience which is
not a safety-of-flight issue...
Mark do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
What would your normal start be with out the purge valve? I do not have
a purge valve but was considering putting one on because of real hard
hot starts. Any Ideas would be appreciated. Mark Rose RV8A 137MR IO360
85 fun Hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: RV-List: I've sworn off purge valve installations
After my second failure in a couple thousand hours of running fuel
injection with pruge valves, I have concluded they are unnecessary and
can have multiple failure modes that can bring you down.
As many of you know Airflow Performance of Spartanburg SC sells a
terrific fuel injection system for all kinds of engines. from boats, to
dragsters, to planes. I have had their system on 2 RV's and have had 2
failures in the purge system. The purpose in the purge valve is simple.
On a hot start, pull the valve, turn your pump on, and allow the hot
vapors out for a few seconds. Close the valve and start your normal hot
start procedures.
On my RV-6 I had the purge vale return line running into the cockpit
and into a tee on the fuel inlet near the tank selector switch. AFP
recommends this returning back to the tank, but I felt this to be too
complex an installation. One day, while scudding back from SnF, close to
home base, with Michelle in the right seat, the engine coughed and would
barely run. I managed to limp home. After weeks of troubleshooting, it
turned out that I had a crack in a tube FWF on the purge return line.
This crack was allowing air into the return line, and hence air into the
fuel flow to the engine. After this incident I decided on my next plane,
I would NOT put the purge return line into the fuel supply system. This
failure could have put me and my wife in the trees.
On my 8, I ran the purge return into the left tank vent. Thought
being, let the vapors and a little fuel run to the ground. Don't let a
line leak here spoil my fuel. So on a trip last week with several RV's
and wifes to NYC for a play and a movie, plane died on landing rollout
in NJ. ARGH! We finished our weekend getaway with the wife's, but on
Sunday I put wife on a Delta flight home and began troubleshooting. What
I found was the plane was way lean in running and would barely idle
below 1500. I removed the fuel inlet to the servo and there was plenty
of fuel going in, but the engine was not getting it. I checked screens
and a few other things and no joy. I decided it was the servo not
metering the fuel properly. I finally decided I try taking off and
climbing to altitude and see if mother nature would richen it with
altitude. Sure enough, around 7k' I would get egt's at peak, and at
10k' I could run a little ROP. BUT the fuel flow was +4gph more than
normal. How could that be? I dunno, but it was running smooth and I flew
her home to Atlanta.
Safe in my own hanger, I removed the servo and flow divider and sent
it to AFP. Don returned it with no problem found. ARGH! Spent the
weekend troubleshooting and found the problem. The Purge valve was
leaking internally and some fuel was by passing and going to the return
side. Actually a lot of fuel was going to the return. This was causing
lean operation and high fuel flow. I have now sent this to AFP for
repair. I also suspect that this valve has been sending fuel to the
return all along in the past 300 hours. I have gotten from day 1, and
unexplained +1.5gph with my boost pump on.
In a couple thousand hours of RV injected operation in multiple
aircraft, I have not found I needed this purge valve function for hot
starts. In fact all I really use it for is to shut down the engine. Hot
starts are easily handled with proper technique. I have now sworn off
this purge valve madness as it provides no value in an RV and multiple
failure modes.
Thought some of you might find this information useful.
Best,
Mike Stewart
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Facet Pump Failure |
In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes:
I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
the unit.
Pete
===========================
Pete:
I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed. In all three cases it was
debris that jammed the piston.
One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart. DON'T LOOSE THE
PIECES when taking it apart.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Facet Pump Failure |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Hilling" <inverteddecathlon@hotmail.com>
The Facet pump is very sensitive to dirt and requires a fuel filter between
the tank and the pump.
Also, they are made to push the fuel, not pull it. They will burn up from
running dry.
Craig
>From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet Pump Failure
>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:51:45 EDT
>
>In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes:
>I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just
>installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg. I'd
>like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze
>the unit.
>
>Pete
>===========================
>Pete:
>
>I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed. In all three cases it was
>debris that jammed the piston.
>
>One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart. DON'T LOOSE THE
>PIECES when taking it apart.
>
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
--> RV-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
> After weeks of troubleshooting, it turned out that I had a crack in a
> tube FWF on the purge return line. This crack was allowing air into
> the return line, and hence air into the fuel flow to the engine. After
> this incident I decided on my next plane, I
>
I thought there weren't supposed to be any solid tubes FWF. The
vibration makes them crack.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
av8er2fly@peoplepc.com wrote:
> What would your normal start be with out the purge valve? I do not
> have a purge valve but was considering putting one on because of real
> hard hot starts. Any Ideas would be appreciated. Mark Rose RV8A
> 137MR IO360 85 fun Hrs.
>
Well, it all depends on what's causing the hard starts when hot. This
will take some sleuthing on your part. The problem may be that it takes
some extra pump time to fully pressurize the system and get fuel through
the injectors. The problem may not be vapor in the lines. When you
have a hot start problem have someone look at the exhaust. If you see
vapor (think the wavy view of the air down a hot road) and it doesn't
start than it's too rich and when it does start then you'll see black
smoke out the exhaust. If you don't see anything, keep hitting the
boost pump ..... keeping track of how long the total pump run is ..... a
second or two at a time until it starts ..... you'll need someone to
watch that exhaust. If it still won't start, then it's time to pull
some plugs to see if they're wet.
If you suspect vapor lock .... the only cure is positive pressure on the
system. I'm partial to the 'serial flow system' .... where the boost
pump feeds the engine pump which feeds the controller. Others like the
'parallel flow system' and that's OK too ...... but being able to
pressurize the whole system is, to me, the key.
If you can mount your boost pump as low as possible in the cockpit .....
which shouldn't get as hot as the engne compartment ..... and keep it
cool, positive head pressure is always available ..... unless you run
the tank dry!!!
Bottom line, the sequence you use in starting can be very important and
it's just a learning (leaning???? ;-) ) curve 'till you find what the
engine really likes.
Good luck!!!
Linn
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: N616TB (RV-6) Flies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "shirleyh" <shirleyh@oceanbroadband.net>
Congrats, Tim - if you only need to hold the stick "a little to the right" it sounds
like you've built it pretty well straight!
Before squeezing the aileron, try adding a temporary trim tab - I used a 6" length
of light weight timber moulding held on with double sided carpet tape. Tape
it on to the underside of the light aileron - and keep trimming a little off
the length til you are flying level hands off.
Isn't it just the best feeling to finally fly??!! Well done!
Shirley Harding
RV6 VH ASF 36 hours - would be more by now if I hadn't broken my foot! Flying is
safer than dancing.
Perth, Western Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65401#65401
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