---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/05/06: 33 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:52 AM - Re: Nose gear strut update (Bill Boyd) 2. 04:58 AM - Re: Re: Nose gear, 6A (Bill Boyd) 3. 06:17 AM - Re: Re: DRDT-2 Table (Bill and Tami Britton) 4. 07:33 AM - Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Folbrecht, Paul) 5. 07:53 AM - Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? (Dwight Frye) 6. 08:29 AM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Bob Collins) 7. 08:35 AM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 8. 08:35 AM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Ralph E. Capen) 9. 08:48 AM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (smitty@smittysrv.com) 10. 08:52 AM - Re: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? (Tim Olson) 11. 09:04 AM - Re: Facet pump failure (Vanremog@aol.com) 12. 11:46 AM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 13. 11:52 AM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Patrick Kelley) 14. 01:32 PM - May the road rise to meet you... (John Helms) 15. 02:10 PM - Re: May the road rise to meet you... (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 16. 02:46 PM - Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? (Kevin Horton) 17. 03:02 PM - Re: May the road rise to meet you... (Cory Emberson) 18. 04:41 PM - Re: Facet pump failure (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 19. 05:19 PM - Re: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans (Les Kearney) 20. 05:57 PM - yet another rivet question (Jeff Bearden) 21. 06:11 PM - Re: Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? (Tim Olson) 22. 06:16 PM - Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Paul Folbrecht) 23. 06:37 PM - Tools, Tools, Tools (Les Kearney) 24. 07:27 PM - Re: yet another rivet question (Bob Collins) 25. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Patrick Kelley) 26. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Steve Eberhart) 27. 09:06 PM - Re: yet another rivet question (WILLIAM AGSTER) 28. 09:38 PM - Re: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? (Richard E. Tasker) 29. 09:49 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06 (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 30. 10:07 PM - Re: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled (Ed Holyoke) 31. 10:25 PM - Re: yet another rivet question (Ed Holyoke) 32. 10:36 PM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06 (linn Walters) 33. 10:48 PM - Re: yet another rivet question (Jason Hills) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:18 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Nose gear strut update --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" Aha, so the spacer you refer to is in the wheel bearing fork. I follow you. That part eventually got filed down by degrees to a length that allowed some preload on the bearings when the axle bolt wsat tightened to spec. I remember doing that after my second set of nosewheel bearings went bad. Van has redesigned this for another model of nose wheel and it now takes a different (now sealed) bearing and no spacer. Best wishes, Charlie. I still think if you're going to ream, the tapered pin is the way to go. You could re-ream and re-use same pin several times if it ever worked loose, since the taper will take up the slack repeatedly, while a bolt won't. -Stormy On 10/4/06, Charles Heathco wrote: > > > Hiya All, I have gotten a few replys and one sent me to a site that stated > the engine mount must be removed, lots a luck, I just replaced the O-320 2 > months ago and am not looking forward to taking it back off to remove the > engine mount. Seems that this is a somewhat common problem that Vans does > not want to adress, per replys. Im not a grad enginere, but I am 67 yr old > farm boy, and we had to come up with stuff that engineeres never would think > of to keep our our stuff working. As I view the strut mount It is obviously > a weak link. one bolt thru a short mount to hold some heavy duty forces. I > have since day one pulled the nose gear off earlier than I ever did on my > Ch-140, as that was what I got from my buddy in Covington Ga. If I ever > banged the nose gear on like I did when learning to fly in "66 in > Ch-140/180. it would probably colapse. For those who asked for clarification > of removeing the spacer in the wheel bearing, With it in, I had a bit of > wooble and with it out, a tight fit. Seems like the only answer is to ream > it out and use a biger bolt, and that seems like one hell of a chore. > Charlie > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:26 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Nose gear, 6A --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" Plus no cad plating and I doubt you'll get rolled (vs. cut) threads. I don't thinl I'd go that way either. $.02 Stormy On 10/4/06, linn Walters wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters > > Leland Collins wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Leland Collins" > > > >The Close Tolerance bolts AN175-20A is about four mils larger than the original AN5-20A. Spruce list a drilled version but they were on backorder a week ago. I found some at the Ted Shulgin Co., 925-228-2512. Van's lists an NAS1305-26 bolt that may be the same. Another option is to have a machine shop turn down a 3/8" bolt to the desired dimensions. > > > I don't like that idea ..... but that's only MHO. The lathe work will > leave small grooves (unless they're finish ground) which is a great > place for stress fractures to start. > Linn > do not archive > > > > >Leland > > > >-------- > >Leland > >RV9A > >N137LC > > > > > > > > > >Read this topic online here: > > > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65769#65769 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:50 AM PST US From: "Bill and Tami Britton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: DRDT-2 Table --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill and Tami Britton" Les, I've got 2 of the 3' X 5' tables also. Due to lack of space in my garage for another table that will be used minimally, I just slid the two tables together end to end and screwed the DRDT-2 to a 2 X 6, then I screwed the 2 X 6 on to the legs of each table (so the dimpling sets were flush with the table top). Now, when I don't need it (the DRDT-2) I can either unscrew the dimpler form the board and leave the board on the tables (leaves me a gap between tables about 6-8 inches wide) or remove the board completely. I know that every time I need to do some dimpling I have to mess with screwing either the whole setup back on or atleast the dimpler back on. But, for no more often than you really use the dimpler it's not that big of a deal, especially if you've got a cordless drill. CLEAR AS MUD, right??? If you would like to see some pictures let me know. Bill Britton ----- Original Message ----- From: "LES KEARNEY" Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:13 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: DRDT-2 Table > --> RV-List message posted by: LES KEARNEY > > Hi > > In anticipation of ordering an empennage kit on Tuesday next, I have been > busy getting my workspace ready. To that end I have built two regulation > EAA work tables and now would like to build a table / stand for a DRDT-2 > dimplier. > > Does anyone have plans for such a beast so I can build the table in > advance of receiving my tool order? > > Many thanks > > Les > > RV10 Wannabe > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:21 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled From: "Folbrecht, Paul" Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is going to be the last one in a while! The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up. I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and realized I'd probably ruin the peice. Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the outboard end needs to be flush for clearance. Paul 9A QB #1176 Close to finishing empennage This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:15 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: RV-List: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye I've not heard much talk about the new Gretz GA-1000 pitot (and the archives show only three hits for it, one the new product announcement from Warren about it). Has anyone installed it yet? Has anyone flown one yet? How about in conditions where the pitot was needed? I like what I see on the website ... but if someone could give me some real world feedback I'd appreciate it before I plunk down my money. I've already spent more on pitots than I would ever want to (it is a long story .. so you don't want to ask). -- Dwight ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:09 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled Paul, are you talking about the sides of the trim tab...the inboard edge? (and I guess the outboad one too). I didn't either and just went out to look at it and realized the blind rivets called out suggested I should. But I'm not worried about it. I made sure there was a 1/4" gap (I think) as Orndorrff reminded me in his video to be sure nothing hit anything, and it won't. It may be close, but it won't. There's no way I'm rebuilding the trim tab and I don't see any reason why I should, in the absence of an interference issue. Bob Collins St. Paul RV Builder's Hotline http://home.comcast.net/~rvnewsletter/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Folbrecht, Paul Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is going to be the last one in a while! The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up. I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and realized I'd probably ruin the peice. Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the outboard end needs to be flush for clearance. Paul 9A QB #1176 Close to finishing empennage This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:22 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled In a message dated 10/05/2006 9:35:50 AM Central Daylight Time, PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com writes: Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. >>> Hi Paul- You might be able to get a wood dowel (or aluminum if ya got it) about 1/2" diameter and drill a hole in one end to accept the female dimple die- tape the die to the dowel and stick it in the opposite end of the tab (which is not riveted yet- just spread it apart at the spar side til you can get the dowel inside) then position the male die through the hole in the tab and into the female die. Tap lightly on the male die and see what happens... You also may be able to tape the poprivet die and nail to the end of a smaller dowel or piece of coat hangar wire and fish it into the hole from the other end until you can grab it... >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:46 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I've used the pop-rivet dimple die parts with a nut/bolt combo. Still requires a little access to the behind - but not as much. -----Original Message----- >From: "Folbrecht, Paul" >Sent: Oct 5, 2006 10:30 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled > >Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is going to be the last one in a while! > >The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up. > >I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and realized I'd probably ruin the peice. > >Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. > >I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the outboard end needs to be flush for clearance. > >Paul >9A QB #1176 >Close to finishing empennage > > > >This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:14 AM PST US From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Subject: RE: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Hi Paul, Assuming that you haven't riveted the trim tab spar in place, you should be able to use Averys #30 pop-rivet dimple dies to dimple both holes, probably both holes with one squeeze. I'm not sure (and can't remember), but I think I just opened the skin just enough to pop-rivet dimple the holes separately. Here's my entry: http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=310 Sorry if this is not what you are looking for. Smitty http://SmittysRV.com Original Message: ----------------- From: Folbrecht, Paul PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is going to be the last one in a while! The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up. I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and realized I'd probably ruin the peice. Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the outboard end needs to be flush for clearance. Paul 9A QB #1176 Close to finishing empennage This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:07 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson I've got one installed and flying. It seems to work fine. The thermostatic control works as advertised. Somewhere in my pitot static system I have something causing an airspeed error of -1 to -2 kts, but that's pretty minimal. I had lots more until I got new static ports installed. The pitot tube isn't shiny and pretty, but it isn't awful either. The grey makes it not all that visible in the big scheme of things. The one thing I can't give any help on is how it performs in ice, to melt ice. I know the thermostatic thing works, but it only gets to around 100 degrees or whatever. A normal pitot goes up to something near 400 degrees from what I understand. I would think that at 400 degrees, the other ones might outperform it a lot in getting RID of ice, but the idea in IMC is to turn it on to prevent ice. I would think that at 100 degrees, it still should do that job adequately, but it would be interesting to see the testing. It is nice to be able to turn the pitot switch on though and not worry about what happens if you leave it on. The thermostatic control will keep it warm but not hot, and it won't draw much power unless it's heating....so the theory is nice. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying 145 hours do not archive Dwight Frye wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye > > I've not heard much talk about the new Gretz GA-1000 pitot (and the > archives show only three hits for it, one the new product announcement > from Warren about it). Has anyone installed it yet? Has anyone flown > one yet? How about in conditions where the pitot was needed? I like > what I see on the website ... but if someone could give me some real > world feedback I'd appreciate it before I plunk down my money. I've > already spent more on pitots than I would ever want to (it is a long > story .. so you don't want to ask). > > -- Dwight > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:04 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet pump failure In a message dated 10/4/2006 4:21:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, richard.b.zeidman@boeing.com writes: I don't want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one who had a facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been sounding normal for a few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last flight, I toggled the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it in a lab later and found it to be intermittent below 13.5 volts and would start dithering instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel through it, I cannot explain. PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed. ================================= It would help us all a little to know which pump you had fail (FI high pressure or Carb low pressure). GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:06 AM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: Re: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Paul, I think you will still have enough room with the pop-rivets, I did the same thing on my trim tab outboard end and it looks okay and I think the clearance is just fine. If you were to look at the clearance on our Cardinal between the stabilator and the tailcone there is hardly any room at all between the round headed screw and the moving stabilator. Certainly less than on the RV trim tab. Also, if you need to build a new trim tab the complete kit for the trim tab is about $50.00. I have built two so far.:-) Keep on riveting, you are almost done with the empennage. Jim Fogarty ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled > --> RV-List message posted by: "smitty@smittysrv.com" > > > Hi Paul, > > Assuming that you haven't riveted the trim tab spar in place, you should > be > able to use Averys #30 pop-rivet dimple dies to dimple both holes, > probably > both holes with one squeeze. I'm not sure (and can't remember), but I > think > I just opened the skin just enough to pop-rivet dimple the holes > separately. > > Here's my entry: > > http://www.smittysrv.com/more_stuff.asp?ID=310 > > Sorry if this is not what you are looking for. > > Smitty > http://SmittysRV.com > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Folbrecht, Paul PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com > Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:30:42 -0500 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled > > > Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is > going to be the last one in a while! > > The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was > admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and > thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad > rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the > trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those > holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up. > > I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of > stress > to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and > realized I'd probably ruin the peice. > > Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that > calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out > of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. > > I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but > the > outboard end needs to be flush for clearance. > > Paul > 9A QB #1176 > Close to finishing empennage > > > This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the > intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise > protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is > strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail > messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in > connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be > secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send > confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is > for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy > or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific > investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received > this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return > e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:28 AM PST US From: "Patrick Kelley" Subject: RE: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled My $.02: Use a manual deburring tool to lightly counter sink the outermost tab on each end. Then allow the soft CS4-4 to do its bit by conforming to the surface. You should end up with a fairly smooth rivet and most of your clearance. For looks and extra strength, you might use a bit of epoxy around the rivet, but be careful not to sand into the rivet when smoothing the area. Once painted, no one (except us) will know. Pat Kelley - RV-6A on hiatus again while in school. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Folbrecht, Paul Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:31 AM Subject: RV-List: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled Well, I'm just burning up the list here lately with my errors. This is going to be the last one in a while! The last thing was just a bad rivet but this is a bit more serious. I was admiring how well my tribtab turned out last night - nearly perfect - and thinking about the very last task, riveting the ends closed. (That bad rivet I posted about actually was on the elevator trimtab spar, not the trimtab). Well, as the subject says, I realized I'd never dimpled those holes. This is a pretty big problem as it is closed up. I could unbend the ends and do it - this is likely to cause a lot of stress to the metal, and also would be quite difficult. I started to do it and realized I'd probably ruin the peice. Other than that is there any solution? Any dimpling process at all that calls for access to only one side? My pop-rivet dimpling tool got me out of a similar bind once, but you do need access to both sides for that. I could live with round rivets on the inboard end - cosmetic only - but the outboard end needs to be flush for clearance. Paul 9A QB #1176 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:27 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: RV-List: May the road rise to meet you... It has been my pleasure to serve you all as a group and many of you as individuals over the past several years. I have accepted a position as Assistant Vice President and Manager of the Light Aircraft Division - East (long title I know) for American International Group, Inc (AIG for short). Basically, that is the head of light aircraft underwriting for the east coast for AIG. The office is in Atlanta, GA. This was a heartwrenching decision for me and my family. NationAir was a very good place for me, and I owe them a lot. I will still be at all the major conventions. Please feel free to look me up at AIG's booth. I will likely not post much about insurance here... It's really the agents duty to interact with individual customers. Dave McCoy (dmccoy@nationair.com) will be leading the rest of my former Light Aircraft Office staff as they continue to lead the way in insuring Vans Aircraft. Dave has over 7 years of experience in this industry. Knowing that he will continue to serve our current customers well made my decision just a little easier. Jenny Estes (jestes@nationair.com) is handling most of our current Vans customers and new inquiries. She's been with us for more than 5 years, and has been helping with the Vans customers for over a year. Both Jenny and Dave can be contacted at 877 475 5860 if they can be of any service to you. Thank you all (ya'll? ) and fly safe. John "JT" Helms former Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc Light Aircraft Office P.S. I thought I might finally get to drop the "JT" and become John again (it's been 7 years since I worked with another John which is how I picked it up), but all the staff at my new office already know me as JT as do all the other agents. So, I guess I'm stuck with it for life. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:49 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: May the road rise to meet you... From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Thanks JT for all your help on and off the list. Good luck at AIG and let me know if you need any help in Atlanta. Best, Mike Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Helms Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 4:29 PM Subject: RV-List: May the road rise to meet you... It has been my pleasure to serve you all as a group and many of you as individuals over the past several years. I have accepted a position as Assistant Vice President and Manager of the Light Aircraft Division - East (long title I know) for American International Group, Inc (AIG for short). Basically, that is the head of light aircraft underwriting for the east coast for AIG. The office is in Atlanta, GA. This was a heartwrenching decision for me and my family. NationAir was a very good place for me, and I owe them a lot. I will still be at all the major conventions. Please feel free to look me up at AIG's booth. I will likely not post much about insurance here... It's really the agents duty to interact with individual customers. Dave McCoy (dmccoy@nationair.com) will be leading the rest of my former Light Aircraft Office staff as they continue to lead the way in insuring Vans Aircraft. Dave has over 7 years of experience in this industry. Knowing that he will continue to serve our current customers well made my decision just a little easier. Jenny Estes (jestes@nationair.com) is handling most of our current Vans customers and new inquiries. She's been with us for more than 5 years, and has been helping with the Vans customers for over a year. Both Jenny and Dave can be contacted at 877 475 5860 if they can be of any service to you. Thank you all (ya'll? ) and fly safe. John "JT" Helms former Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc Light Aircraft Office P.S. I thought I might finally get to drop the "JT" and become John again (it's been 7 years since I worked with another John which is how I picked it up), but all the staff at my new office already know me as JT as do all the other agents. So, I guess I'm stuck with it for life. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:07 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: RV-List: Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > I've got one installed and flying. It seems to work fine. > The thermostatic control works as advertised. Somewhere in > my pitot static system I have something causing an airspeed > error of -1 to -2 kts, but that's pretty minimal. I had > lots more until I got new static ports installed. Tim - tell us more about the static ports. Which static ports gave the errors? How much error, and in which speed range? Which ports do you have now? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:42 PM PST US From: Cory Emberson Subject: Re: RV-List: May the road rise to meet you... --> RV-List message posted by: Cory Emberson Best of luck to you, JT, and thank you for all the valuable informarion you've provided us with. (And for me, thank you for being such a great, and accurate, source of information for my insurance articles for Kitplanes. That helped so much.) I'll be sure to come by the AIG booth at SnF. I'm not from the South (not by my choice!), but I think it's "all y'all"... :-D best, Cory do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:00 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Facet pump failure --> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 10/5/06 12:06:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Vanremog@aol.com writes: > Why it didn't allow fuel through it, > I cannot explain. > PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed. ==================================== I think you should take it apart. It comes apart very easy, just one bog nut. Problems I found were debris clogging and jamming the piston. I sure would like to know what you found. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:29 PM PST US From: Les Kearney Subject: RV-List: RE: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans -----Original Message----- From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney@shaw.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:07 PM Subject: RE: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans Hi I know this may come across as asking if some wants to sell their first born, but I am in the market for tools. Basically, I need just about everything but am primarily interested in air tools including a pneumatic squeeze and a DTRT-2 dimplier. Anybody too busy flying to need tools? Cheers Les -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Wright Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 4:46 PM Subject: RV10-List: QB Floor Pans Tim Olson and others, I remember way back when you recommended removing your floor pans form the QB, not just for stray clecos but also to personally check quality of the Philippines. I've got all the rear ones out but can't figure an easy way to remove the most forward ones since the gear leg brackets are bolting them in. Tips? Rob Wright #392 Wanting to prime and soundproof.. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:41 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question From: "Jeff Bearden" --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Bearden" I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially, the shop head is flattening half of the dimple. These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move around in, although the rudder turned out ok. As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun). I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very slowly. Any advice to improve my technique?? Thanks, Jeff[img][/img] -------- -Clam ------------------ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:57 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: Static ports, was: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson I had the original Cleaveland ports that were flat. I didn't get any instructions with them, so I just riveted them in, and painted around them...they were flush with the painted part of the fuselage. As it turned out, they were supposedly to be installed on an un-primed inner surface, so they'd not have that super thick primer (sarcastic) keeping them from sticking out, and then they were supposed to be painted with the fuselage so the end result was that they were to stick out .010" or so. Well, with mine being flush, I had a -6.5 to -7.5 kt error. I had no idea until thanks to your site I used your 4-way spreadsheet and did a bunch of test flights. I was consistently off by that amount, with st.dev. numbers near zero. I cut some .040 or .050" penny sized discs and taped them over the ports (had a hole in the discs), and then my airspeed error was -4 kts or so....a good improvement, but a messy kludge. I then removed the discs and made some horseshoe bridges to put in front of the ports, which brought the error to -4 to -4.5 kts or so. Finally I gave up doing the messy fixes and installed the newer style Cleaveland ports. They stick out a bit, and are rounded in shape on the outside. When I test flew with those ports, my error was -1.8 on your spreadsheet. With 1kt resolution on the airspeed indicator, I think this is the best I can expect to get. I did a pitot system leak check when I had the IFR pitot static done, and both were tight. I did a simulated test of the pitot system by blowing into it to 170kts and plugging the pitot with a piece of rubber. I couldn't get a perfect seal, but it only leaked down by 1kt every 20+ seconds or so....so it was tight enough to be pretty accurate I'd think. I need to say thank you for your website. I used it during my quest for good airspeed numbers. I'd love to get rid of the -1.8 kt error, but I think I'd be a little obsessive if I put much more time into that small of an error. Thanks again Kevin, Tim Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Kevin Horton wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson >> >> I've got one installed and flying. It seems to work fine. >> The thermostatic control works as advertised. Somewhere in >> my pitot static system I have something causing an airspeed >> error of -1 to -2 kts, but that's pretty minimal. I had >> lots more until I got new static ports installed. > > Tim - tell us more about the static ports. Which static ports gave the > errors? How much error, and in which speed range? Which ports do you > have now? > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:12 PM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so there was simply no way to get to the other side. This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible. (These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.) Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe 1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also another place where the side bulges just a bit. But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe 1/32" of play). If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end "rib" in there. Paul 9A QB #1176 Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces... ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:03 PM PST US From: Les Kearney Subject: RV-List: Tools, Tools, Tools Hi Once more with feeling only with a more appropriate subject line.. Hi I know this may come across as asking if some wants to sell their first born, but I am in the market for tools. Basically, I need just about everything but am primarily interested in air tools including a pneumatic squeeze and a DTRT-2 dimplier. Anybody too busy flying to need tools? Cheers Les (awaiting tail kit) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:58 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: yet another rivet question --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" Jeff, this isn't particulrly unusual. But you're not holding your rivet set completely perpendicular to the piece. Also, be sure the skin is not lifting off the backrivet plate at all. Bob St. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bearden > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:56 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Bearden" > > I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy > rivet ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back > riveting the stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of > an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon > inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found > about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially, > the shop head is flattening half of the dimple. > > These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. > I'm match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems > to give an awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move > around in, although the rudder turned out ok. > > As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level > and the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about > 44 psi (avery 2x gun). > > I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets > very slowly. > > Any advice to improve my technique?? > Thanks, > Jeff[img][/img] > > -------- > -Clam > ------------------ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:41 PM PST US From: "Patrick Kelley" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: "Patrick Kelley" If you have so little gap, maybe you could put the tab on end on a pine block and gently (gently!) square or concave the ends slightly with a rubber mallet. And if it's a case of hinge play, a thin section of plastic (UHMW?) might keep the edges from binding. Pat Kelley -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:14 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so there was simply no way to get to the other side. This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible. (These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.) Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe 1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also another place where the side bulges just a bit. But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe 1/32" of play). If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end "rib" in there. Paul 9A QB #1176 Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces... ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:45 PM PST US From: Steve Eberhart Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: Steve Eberhart Just cut off the tabs, clean up the edges and make an end rib. dimple the skin and rib then rivet together. I didn't even mess with the chintzy tabs, went straight to an end rib. Steve Eberhart RV-7A, Finish kit gets delivered next month Patrick Kelley wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Patrick Kelley" > > If you have so little gap, maybe you could put the tab on end on a pine > block and gently (gently!) square or concave the ends slightly with a rubber > mallet. And if it's a case of hinge play, a thin section of plastic (UHMW?) > might keep the edges from binding. > > Pat Kelley > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:14 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled > > --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht > > Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so > there was simply no way to get to the other side. > > This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort > of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to > just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible. > (These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.) > > Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the > slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also > didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe > 1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also > another place where the side bulges just a bit. > > But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called > Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can > be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be > crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I > said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe > 1/32" of play). > > If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could > just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end > "rib" in there. > > Paul > 9A QB #1176 > Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces... > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:47 PM PST US From: "WILLIAM AGSTER" Subject: Re: RV-List: yet another rivet question It is true about the skin lifting up off the back riveting plate. For lack of anything better, I triple bagged some sand in one gallon zip lock freezer bags from the kids sand box and placed one bag on each side of the stiffner I was riveting. The instructions do mention weighting it down as you rivet. After a couple of partial flat dimples, the light bulb went on. It really helps with the elevators. Bill 7A ---wings ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Collins To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:25 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: yet another rivet question --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" > Jeff, this isn't particulrly unusual. But you're not holding your rivet set completely perpendicular to the piece. Also, be sure the skin is not lifting off the backrivet plate at all. Bob St. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bearden > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:56 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Bearden" > > > I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy > rivet ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back > riveting the stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of > an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon > inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found > about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially, > the shop head is flattening half of the dimple. > > These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. > I'm match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems > to give an awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move > around in, although the rudder turned out ok. > > As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level > and the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about > 44 psi (avery 2x gun). > > I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets > very slowly. > > Any advice to improve my technique?? > Thanks, > Jeff[img][/img] > > -------- > -Clam > ------------------ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:34 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: RV-List: Gretz GA-1000 Pitot Experience? --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" The ability to melt ice is not related to the temperature the pitot stabilizes at, it is related to the maximum energy (current draw) the pitot tube can consume. The certified pitot tube gets so hot because it is just a big heater with no thermostatic control - it gets hotter and hotter until the radiated heat (which increases with temperature) just balances the power into the pitot. With the Gretz tube, he has it thermostatically controlled so as soon as it heats to about 100 degrees it "throttles back" on the current draw to just keep it at 100 degrees. If the ambient temperature was lower it would still regulate to 100 degrees, but it would draw more current to keep it there. If you spray ice water at it, it will draw still more current to keep it at 100 degrees. The limit occurs when it has the internal heater full on 100% of the time. The only way to really compare to a standard pitot would be to measure the current draw when the Gretz pitot is first turned on and hasn't had a chance to heat up at all. That current is probably the maximum it can ever draw and will give you the maximum power capability (current x voltage) which can then be compared to a standard pitot current draw. The real beauty of the Gretz pitot is that it only draws the amount of current you need to keep the pitot warm, unlike the standard pitot that draws maximum current all the time. Dick Tasker Tim Olson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > I've got one installed and flying. It seems to work fine. > The thermostatic control works as advertised. Somewhere in > my pitot static system I have something causing an airspeed > error of -1 to -2 kts, but that's pretty minimal. I had > lots more until I got new static ports installed. > > The pitot tube isn't shiny and pretty, but it isn't awful > either. The grey makes it not all that visible in the big > scheme of things. > > The one thing I can't give any help on is how it performs > in ice, to melt ice. I know the thermostatic thing works, > but it only gets to around 100 degrees or whatever. A > normal pitot goes up to something near 400 degrees from > what I understand. I would think that at 400 degrees, > the other ones might outperform it a lot in getting RID > of ice, but the idea in IMC is to turn it on to prevent > ice. I would think that at 100 degrees, it still should > do that job adequately, but it would be interesting to see > the testing. It is nice to be able to turn the pitot switch > on though and not worry about what happens if you leave > it on. The thermostatic control will keep it warm but > not hot, and it won't draw much power unless it's > heating....so the theory is nice. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying 145 hours > do not archive > > > Dwight Frye wrote: > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye >> >> I've not heard much talk about the new Gretz GA-1000 pitot (and the >> archives show only three hits for it, one the new product announcement >> from Warren about it). Has anyone installed it yet? Has anyone flown >> one yet? How about in conditions where the pitot was needed? I like >> what I see on the website ... but if someone could give me some real >> world feedback I'd appreciate it before I plunk down my money. I've >> already spent more on pitots than I would ever want to (it is a long >> story .. so you don't want to ask). >> >> -- Dwight >> > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:49 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06 --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Linn this comment sounds a lot like some of the other urban legends that I keep hearing since being involved in aviation. I honestly cannot understand where this one came from. This is another thing that does have a counterpart in automotive land. As far back as I can remember (about 1963) automobiles have been turned off with the IGNITION switch, NOT a fuel cutoff. Now I don't know why airplanes have to use that particular method over just turning off the ignition but it in some ways it seems as antiquated as the magnetos that are STILL in use on new production airplanes today. Why do we continue to perpetuate this stuff when cars have long since dispensed with them? We NEVER think about washing oil off the cylinder walls of our autos, even when they had big four barrel carburetors? Not a personal attack on you Linn, just a frustration with certain things I hear in aviation land that are NEVER even thought about in automotive land. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Finishing wiring, soon to clear the prop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Time: 01:28:36 PM PST US >From: linn Walters >Subject: Re: RV-List: Findings on the AFP purge valve >The only downside to this procedure is that there is 'extra' fuel in the >cylinders which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls. >Linn ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:31 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" I was having trouble getting the ends bent right so I just cut 'em off and bent up a little baby rib for each end out of .032. Looks like it should have been that way all along. Pax, Ed -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Folbrecht Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 6:14 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Screwup: ends of trimtab not dimpled --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Thanks for all the replies. Yes, it was *completely* closed up so there was simply no way to get to the other side. This is what I did. I used CS4-4s, and they did seat in a bit - sort of self-dimple - as I was expected. I then used a die-grinder to just lightly deburr the head to make it as low-profile as possible. (These rivets are, of course, completely non-structural.) Still, I just *barely* get clearance, and I mean barely, with the slight amount of hinge play completely against me - because I also didn't have enough clearance there to begin with. I have maybe 1/64th between the rivet head and the elevator stiffeners, and also another place where the side bulges just a bit. But I think it's good. Nothing is going to jam it. I called Van's... they thought it fine too and pointed out that the -9(A) can be safely flown and landed even with full down trim (not that I'd be crazy about trying that). There is no way it can bind even, as I said, with the hinge pushed all the way outboard (there is maybe 1/32" of play). If the DAR has a problem with it - and that is possible - I could just slice the whole end of the trim tab off and stick a foam end "rib" in there. Paul 9A QB #1176 Soon to hook up the empennage control surfaces... ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:34 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: yet another rivet question --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Jeff, I used -4 rivets there and for most of where Van's calls for -3.5's. I never can make 'em come out right when they're too short. I usually measure up the first one with a rivet depth gauge (Avery or Cleaveland) and use whatever size will work the best. Places where there're more layers, I measure again. Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Bearden Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 5:56 PM Subject: RV-List: yet another rivet question --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Bearden" I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon inspection of the bottom side of the port elevator, I found about 1/3 of the rivets look like the pictures. Essentially, the shop head is flattening half of the dimple. These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move around in, although the rudder turned out ok. As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about 44 psi (avery 2x gun). I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very slowly. Any advice to improve my technique?? Thanks, Jeff[img][/img] -------- -Clam ------------------ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:06 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 10/04/06 Dean, I share your frustration. Thanks to the Feds, we have to put up with antiquated engines because it costs too much to certify new ones, and the lawyers have inferred that if an improvement is made, then the original was flawed. Homebuilts are the only solution. Car engines have all the newest technology ... are far more efficient, have better power to weight ratios, and far better tolerances. I really have to agree .... magneto's belong on lawnmowers!!! However, they're dirt simple and if taken care of .... hardly ever fail. I like that. Electronic ignition is more efficient ..... but is still prone to failures like any other electronic gadget. I don't really like that. Working in the electronics industry all my life has made me very wary!!! KISS is important to me, and adding dual backut everythings just doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. But I digress. I believe the biggest difference between car engines and airplane engines is the way we operate them. The only way your car sits in the garage for weeks on end is when your job takes you out of town!!! I run the dog-crap out of my Pitts engine ..... and often .....so I don't worry about internal rust and corrosion because I run it often. If you flew every day, then you'd probably never have any problems related to shutting the engine down with the mag switch. I was given that reason for having an idle cutoff on the mixture and accepted it. It's plausible to me. So, I ask you ..... do you have a better reason?? Lycoming says a lot of things relating to their engines that I think come from a severe case of CYA. This could be one of them. Until I find good. meaningful data to suggest otherwise, I'll hold on to this "urban legend". Linn do not archive. DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > >Linn this comment sounds a lot like some of the other urban legends that I >keep hearing since being involved in aviation. I honestly cannot understand >where this one came from. This is another thing that does have a >counterpart in automotive land. As far back as I can remember (about 1963) >automobiles have been turned off with the IGNITION switch, NOT a fuel >cutoff. Now I don't know why airplanes have to use that particular method >over just turning off the ignition but it in some ways it seems as >antiquated as the magnetos that are STILL in use on new production airplanes >today. Why do we continue to perpetuate this stuff when cars have long >since dispensed with them? We NEVER think about washing oil off the cylinder >walls of our autos, even when they had big four barrel carburetors? Not a >personal attack on you Linn, just a frustration with certain things I hear >in aviation land that are NEVER even thought about in automotive land. > >Dean Psiropoulos >RV-6A N197DM >Finishing wiring, soon to clear the prop. > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>Time: 01:28:36 PM PST US >>From: linn Walters >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Findings on the AFP purge valve >> >> > > > >>The only downside to this procedure is that there is 'extra' fuel in the >>cylinders which will wash the oil off the cylinder walls. >>Linn >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:20 PM PST US From: Jason Hills Subject: Re: RV-List: yet another rivet question --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Hills Jeff, I don't qualify as one of the experienced folks here -- I just started on my -8 empenage kit last weekend. But I spent last Saturday having an experienced RV builder help me get started. He has built a number and worked on many more (has a shop/hanger at AWO). He had me bring my right elevator parts up to his place to work for the day, so I started on the right elevator. Anyway, he wasn't happy with how the 3.5 rivets were working out for me after the first couple, so had me try 3.0's. Which although just a hair shorter than they should be, they easily made perfect shop heads of the right size. So we used the 3.0's for the rest of the stiffeners. (Hmm... not sure if the kit comes with enough 3.0's, but he had plenty for me to use). From my less educated perspective, it seems that the 3.5 is a hair long for the thin skin of the elevator, and the 3.0 is probably a hair short. In any case I was able to make consistently good shop heads with the 3.0's rather than the 3.5's called for in the plans. I didn't have any problems with the lengths called for everywhere else in the plans (I finished the elevator last night). ...Jason On Oct 5, 2006, at 5:55 PM, Jeff Bearden wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Bearden" > > I know you experienced folks get tired of the "is this crappy rivet > ok?" bit, but I gotta post another one. I'm back riveting the > stiffeners into the rudder and elevator skins of an -8. The rudder > stiffener rivets turned out fine, but upon inspection of the bottom > side of the port elevator, I found about 1/3 of the rivets look > like the pictures. Essentially, the shop head is flattening half > of the dimple. > > These are the 3.5 length rivets as specified on the drawings. I'm > match drilling to #40, then dimpling. This sure seems to give an > awfully big hole for the 3/32 rivets to move around in, although > the rudder turned out ok. > > As far as I can tell, my surface (back rivet plate) is level and > the gun is perpendicular. The working pressure is about 44 psi > (avery 2x gun). > > I seem to get slightly better results by driving the rivets very > slowly. > > Any advice to improve my technique?? > Thanks, > Jeff[img][/img] > > -------- > -Clam > ------------------ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66083#66083 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok1_medium_164.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok2_medium_128.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/rivetok3_medium_166.jpg > >