Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:53 AM - Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (noel anderson)
2. 03:33 AM - Re: Gapping Spark Plugs-There are dumb questions. (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
3. 04:58 AM - 0-360 kit additional pics (Dana Overall)
4. 06:38 AM - Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? (Bob)
5. 07:20 AM - Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (Jekyll)
6. 07:29 AM - Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? (Bill Boyd)
7. 07:43 AM - Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? (Kevin Horton)
8. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
9. 08:31 AM - Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? (SCOTT SPENCER)
10. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (bill shook)
11. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (Dan Checkoway)
12. 08:47 AM - Re: Wings install (Tim Bryan)
13. 08:56 AM - Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (Jekyll)
14. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (Vanremog@aol.com)
15. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (John Jessen)
16. 10:07 AM - Have You Tried The New Matronics List Forum? (Matt Dralle)
17. 10:17 AM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (JOHN STARN)
18. 10:26 AM - Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (JOHN STARN)
19. 11:20 AM - Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (Ron Lee)
20. 11:37 AM - to the contrare (Wheeler North)
21. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (Rick Gray)
22. 01:35 PM - Re: List Police at it Again (Bob)
23. 01:49 PM - Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? (Bob)
24. 01:50 PM - Electronics International gages (Emrath)
25. 02:53 PM - Re: Electronics International gages (Paul Story)
26. 04:48 PM - Re: Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story (Dean Pichon)
27. 07:25 PM - Re: Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story (Tim Olson)
28. 07:39 PM - Philosophy of the "Repairman" (Dan Checkoway)
29. 08:41 PM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (noel anderson)
30. 08:53 PM - RV-6 Crash in PHX-Larry Olson (Paul Besing)
31. 09:23 PM - Re: Electronics International gages (Paul Besing)
32. 09:52 PM - Re: Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story (Ed Holyoke)
33. 09:53 PM - Re: Spark Plugs & Repairman (Skylor Piper)
34. 10:31 PM - Re: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs (JOHN STARN)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "noel anderson" <nandrand@xtra.co.nz>
OK Guys. If I have offened anybody I'm sorry, but it seems to be self
evident that we check our spark plugs before installing them, (and any
other item of equipment) as I have been doing for the last 60yrs!!! One of
Murphy's Laws states that, if anything can go wrong, it will go wrong!!
Kind regards Noel ( PS. I'm not pompous when you get to know me, I think
you got me at a "senior moment," and yes, the spelling was dumb )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Skylor Piper" <skylor4@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
> --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper <skylor4@yahoo.com>
>
> And who are you to respond in such a pompous manner?
> Isn't the list supposed to be a place where people ask
> questions?
>
> And before you accuse other's of being "dum" at least
> learn to spell!
>
> And,
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE!
>
> Skylor
>
> --- noel anderson <nandrand@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "noel anderson"
>> <nandrand@xtra.co.nz>
>>
>> Hi team. people who ask dum questions like this
>> should not be flying
>> aircraft!!!! Noel
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <FLYaDIVE@aol.com>
>> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
>>
>>
>> >
>> > In a message dated 11/2/06 5:50:23 PM Eastern
>> Standard Time,
>> > deanpichon@msn.com writes:
>> >
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> I just received some new Champion spark plugs
>> and would like to know if
>> > they
>> >>
>> >> come pre-gapped. I am reluctant to open the
>> moisture-proof packaging to
>> >> check. Does anyone out there know whether or
>> not these arrive ready to
>> >> install?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Dean Pichon
>> > =======================
>> > Dean:
>> >
>> > It does not matter if they WERE gapped or not.
>> You are supposed to check
>> > the
>> > gap BEFORE you install them. Pull out your
>> gapping tool and gage.
>> >
>> > Barry
>> > "Chop'd Liver"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Click on
>> about
>> provided
>> www.buildersbooks.com,
>> Admin.
>>
>> browse
>> Subscriptions page,
>> FAQ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com)
>
>
> --
>
>
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Spark Plugs-There are dumb questions. |
Are there DUMB QUESTIONS?
There sure are!
So where did the infamous quote: "There are no dumb questions", come from?
I believe it came from a TEACHER. I teacher that wanted to instill
confidence in every child in class.
A teacher that wanted to make the children THINK.
For a teacher that does not have questions asked of them has to do more
teaching than they are capable of.
So, why do we get upset when a "DUMB" question is asked?
Because somewhere in life YOU were taught the answer to that dumb question
and failed to learn it.
Because laziness has overrun the ability to do one's own research.
Because we have become a, "I want it now society".
Because we are so DUMB that we put idiots in Washington to write laws to
legislate common sense.
So what do we do about dumb questions?
We, answer them with the same type of answer the TEACHER must have, or should
have given; one that forces the person to think. For in aviation even more
so than the sea, aviation is not very forgiving <--- something like that.
After all since we are legislating all these Live Longer Laws of Common Sense
something has to be out there to maintain the balance of nature and the
Darwin Awards.
An idiot driver with MMTB (More Money Than Brains) becomes an idiot pilot.
And the bad thing about that is they may kill people other than themselves ...
And ... Give flying a black eye. Hell, look at that A-Hole Kennedy, John
Denver, that baseball BOOB and the list goes on ...
Ya can't be politically correct all the time and expect people to change on
their own.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 3
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| Subject: | 0-360 kit additional pics |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
I've been asked to show additional pics of the cyls. and case so here is the
new website
http://rvflying.tripod.com/id37.html
Rest of engine: http://rvflying.tripod.com/id36.html
I'm going to give it a couple more days then post it on barnstormers. Come
on gang, you know at $11,500 I'm not in this for the money:-) Please wifey
needs her Christmas money back:-)
859 369-7582 or cell 859 625-2844
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4
http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html
do not archive
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
At 11:21 AM 11/2/06, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>First time I've ever seen a claim that FP is 10 knots faster than CS.
>Would you care to elaborate?
>
Keeping horsepower constant, speed as I understand it is determined by the
RPM and the pitch. When you get a fixed pitch prop you can have any pitch
you want, you just can not change it. My prop was custom designed to
provide optimum climb/cruise speed for my airplane (C/S props do give a
better climb performance than my prop).
Also blade efficiency has a part to play with this. As I said my prop was
custom made, the C/S props are not, as I understand it.
My prop only weights about 11 pounds, if my memory serves me
correctly. The extra 45 pounds for a C/S prop right on the nose really
hurts in additional drag. My aircraft is tail heavy rather than nose
heavy. This tends to reduce the required downward lift of the horizontal
stab (to maintain level flight), which in turns reduces the drag produced
by lift (induced drag I think, I always forget which is which). 45 pounds
does not seem like much, but then multiply it by the moment it creates from
the center of gravity and it becomes a much larger number.
Now if I had an 11 pound C/S prop then my RV would probably go faster with
the C/S prop versus the fixed pitch.
I am not an aerodynamic engineer as are some on this list (I did major in
aerodynamics in college). They may confirm or dispute my opinions. My
opinions are not based upon actual test data, but on aeronautical
principals as I understand them. In comparison to Vans performance figures
for the RV7 (I know different airplane etc) I get about 10 kts faster
cruise speed with my fixed pitch prop than his RV7 with a C/S prop. I
realize that this is not a scientific valid comparison.
What is neat about this list you can buy into my opinion or not. I could
be wrong and if so, I am confident that many people on this list will let
me know.
Bob
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
What exactly does the knowledge of spark glug gapping have on one's ability to
safely fly an aircraft?
I'll wagger it has as much bearing on flying as the skill of using an E6B has for
an A&P to maintain spark plugs.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=71986#71986
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
What the list should know is that the true secret to Bob's fast speed
is the hand-brushed olive drab latex house paint finish on his
airframe.
Bob's night-fighter is so fast, when he comes by to visit me, he's
gone before I know he's even been here, which explains why I never see
him - maybe. It couldn't be that he's forgotten where I live and
never comes over anymore ;-)
Where ya been, buddy?
-Stormy
On 11/3/06, Bob <panamared3@brier.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
>
> At 11:21 AM 11/2/06, you wrote:
> >Bob,
> >
> >First time I've ever seen a claim that FP is 10 knots faster than CS.
> >Would you care to elaborate?
> >
>
> Keeping horsepower constant, speed as I understand it is determined by the
> RPM and the pitch. When you get a fixed pitch prop you can have any pitch
> you want, you just can not change it. My prop was custom designed to
> provide optimum climb/cruise speed for my airplane (C/S props do give a
> better climb performance than my prop).
>
> Also blade efficiency has a part to play with this. As I said my prop was
> custom made, the C/S props are not, as I understand it.
>
> My prop only weights about 11 pounds, if my memory serves me
> correctly. The extra 45 pounds for a C/S prop right on the nose really
> hurts in additional drag. My aircraft is tail heavy rather than nose
> heavy. This tends to reduce the required downward lift of the horizontal
> stab (to maintain level flight), which in turns reduces the drag produced
> by lift (induced drag I think, I always forget which is which). 45 pounds
> does not seem like much, but then multiply it by the moment it creates from
> the center of gravity and it becomes a much larger number.
>
> Now if I had an 11 pound C/S prop then my RV would probably go faster with
> the C/S prop versus the fixed pitch.
>
> I am not an aerodynamic engineer as are some on this list (I did major in
> aerodynamics in college). They may confirm or dispute my opinions. My
> opinions are not based upon actual test data, but on aeronautical
> principals as I understand them. In comparison to Vans performance figures
> for the RV7 (I know different airplane etc) I get about 10 kts faster
> cruise speed with my fixed pitch prop than his RV7 with a C/S prop. I
> realize that this is not a scientific valid comparison.
>
> What is neat about this list you can buy into my opinion or not. I could
> be wrong and if so, I am confident that many people on this list will let
> me know.
>
> Bob
>
>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 3 Nov 2006, at 10:33, Bob wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
>
> At 11:21 AM 11/2/06, you wrote:
>> Bob,
>>
>> First time I've ever seen a claim that FP is 10 knots faster than
>> CS. Would you care to elaborate?
>>
>
> Keeping horsepower constant, speed as I understand it is determined
> by the RPM and the pitch. When you get a fixed pitch prop you can
> have any pitch you want, you just can not change it. My prop was
> custom designed to provide optimum climb/cruise speed for my
> airplane (C/S props do give a better climb performance than my prop).
The propulsive horsepower is equal to the horsepower delivered by the
engine times the propeller efficiency. You were turning the FP prop
up to 2800 rpm, but only running at 2700 with the CS prop, so the
engine was making more power when with the FP prop. I don't recall
you said which FP prop you had, but I have seen several reports that
indicate the Sensenich has slightly higher prop efficiency than the
old Hartzell, as the old Hartzell was not optimized for RV speeds.
The newer blended airfoil Hartzell is apparently more efficient than
the older Hartzell, and it may have finally equalled or exceeded the
Sensenich.
Of course at lower speed conditions, and engine with a FP prop is
turning at lower rpm, and thus makes lower power than if it had a CS
prop. But in cruise, it is possible for a FP prop to be faster, if
it is optimized for RVs, and the CS prop isn't.
>
> Also blade efficiency has a part to play with this. As I said my
> prop was custom made, the C/S props are not, as I understand it.
>
> My prop only weights about 11 pounds, if my memory serves me
> correctly. The extra 45 pounds for a C/S prop right on the nose
> really hurts in additional drag. My aircraft is tail heavy rather
> than nose heavy. This tends to reduce the required downward lift
> of the horizontal stab (to maintain level flight), which in turns
> reduces the drag produced by lift (induced drag I think, I always
> forget which is which). 45 pounds does not seem like much, but
> then multiply it by the moment it creates from the center of
> gravity and it becomes a much larger number.
The drag penalty at cruise from 34 lb on the nose would likely be
small, in my opinion. It would be overshadowed by the differences in
engine power and prop efficiency. If you kept the engine and prop
the same, and added the 34 lb on the nose, you might be able to
measure a very, very small difference in speed.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 11/3/06 10:22:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, rcitjh@aol.com
writes:
> I'll wagger it has as much bearing on flying as the skill of using an E6B
has
> for an A&P to maintain spark plugs.
>
> Jekyll
======================
Well, I can tell you without a doubt. That any E6B that will fit between the
electrode and the core of a spark plug ... Well, that spark plug is not gaped
correctly. It should be gaped so my left pinkie's finger nail and plus a
R.C.H. will just drag through.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? |
RPM is horsepower...
most fixed-pitch guys (with wood props anyway) overwind their engines and see
more speed than a similar constant-speed equipped plane. This speed comes at
the price of higher fuel burns though. Pretty common knowledge in racing circles...
Scott
N4ZW
3 years racing my -4 in the Airventure Cup...
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: bill shook <billshook2000@yahoo.com>
> What exactly does the knowledge of spark glug gapping have on one's ability to
safely
> fly an aircraft?
Safely fly an aircraft...none. Safely BUILD an aircraft...well, now that is another
story. That being said, if there is knowledge missing...this list is a great way
to
pick it up as long as you separate the wheat from the chaff...so to speak.
There are a lot of safety oriented questions I see come across here that I would
direct
towards a pro if it were me. I mean any of us that have seen Charlie Kuss sitting
on
his deck watching the waves, drinking some fruity mixture of deadly fluids...would
certainly balk at asking him how to properly fish a flight line. I mean come on,
the
guy listens to Yanni and hangs out with Marines..there is just something wrong
there.
:) Just kidding Charlie...mostly.
Bill
(http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com)
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> What exactly does the knowledge of spark glug gapping
> have on one's ability to safely fly an aircraft?
Do you deserve to hold the FAA Repairman Certificate for your airplane if
you don't know how to gap your spark plugs?
I'm not saying a hard yes or no, just playing devil's advocate.
If you are the one who is MAINTAINING your airplane and ensuring its
airworthiness year after year, KNOW YOUR AIRPLANE, right down to the gap of
the plugs. Simple mistakes sometimes have huge consequences. Let's keep
this sport safe and alive for a long time to come. I want to be enjoying
what we do for another 40+ years before I hang it up.
Ask the questions...definitely ask the questions. Let's spread the
knowledge as far and wide as we can. It can't hurt to know more.
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D 1124 hours
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
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Message 12
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|
Jerry,
This is a very good document and one I will use to check my plane over
carefully. Thanks for posting it.
Tim
Do Not Archive
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry2DT@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: RV-List: Wings install
Listers,
Going thru the wing install, I had a conversation with Gus at Van's and he
pointed me here...
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Wing_%20Incidence.pdf
This is a valuable addition to the wing install instructions in the manual
and I highly recommend you insert these pages in same, and read carefully
whilst measuring the wings for sweep, incidence, etc. before drilling. I
also found it valuable to use water levels or a digital level. Water levels
tho, are even more accurate. I made mine from thin plastic tubing (AV dep't
@ Home Depot of course).
Here's the text from Van's PDF for your convenience...
HTH,
Jerry Cochran
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
Barry, Bill and Dan:
No bout-a-doubt-it that building and maintaining an aircraft requires the knowledge
and application of gapping techniques. That was not the issue I addressed.
Noel crudely but clearly stated that Dean shouldn't be flying if he needed to ask
that question. I addressed Noel's missguided assertion. Flying and gapping
are not related. Yes, building and maintaining and gapping are related.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=72016#72016
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:58:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rcitjh@aol.com writes:
No bout-a-doubt-it that building and maintaining an aircraft requires the
knowledge and application of gapping techniques. That was not the issue I
addressed.
Noel crudely but clearly stated that Dean shouldn't be flying if he needed
to ask that question. I addressed Noel's misguided assertion. Flying and
gapping are not related. Yes, building and maintaining and gapping are related.
===================================================
Life is the ultimate learning process. This list should mostly be about
giving pilots and builders good information with which to go safely and
successfully about their business. It may occasionally be about conservative
congressmen and evangelical leaders getting caught with their pants down, but
not
today.
Even the most astute practitioner of a given art is often missing some
critical piece of needed information and it is our obligation to provide the
missing information in a non-judgmental way.
I, for one, am always happy to share what little knowledge that I have and
prefer to see as much information as possible discussed in an open forum. The
consensus or lack thereof among my peers helps me to weigh the accuracy of
the data. Please don't archive.
I'm sure that what Noel meant to say was, this information should be known
by all who commit aviation and that not having this knowledge could in fact
contribute to their demise.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 814hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
This, to me, has been an interesting thread. This is about knowledge and
the ability to garner same without risking the junior high school fear of
raising one's hand in a social setting that may be embarrassing or hostile.
The e-mail environment often distorts or does not distort enough a person's
head tone when typing a particular comment. Some of us have years of engine
work, stretching back to the good old days of rebuilding those short blocks
('55 Chevy was my learning platform), while others can fly circles around us
all, and do so inverted. We all have our strengths, but most importantly,
we all have our intellectual and skill-based blind spots.
Amazingly, even with the anonymity of the internet, when you ask a question,
especially the most basic of questions, no matter how old we are, there is
that tendency to hesitate thinking the fool may become me. Then when it
gets reinforced by some, perhaps well meaning rebuke, well, then the real
danger creeps in. Not asking the question that will really bite you in the
preverbal a$$. Knowledge then is not passed on to that person who may not
be the most experienced mechanically, but who might be the best jazz pianist
in town.
Answer the questions. No matter how often asked. Pass on the knowledge.
What is the good in not doing so? Yes, we as pilots are better off to have
the ability to seek out our own answers, and yes there is the quick fix
attitude to contend with, and, yes, good teachers know that an analytic mind
is not created by learning through rote memorization, but discouragement and
criticism will kill the curious just as surely.
John Jessen (40328)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jekyll
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 8:56 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jekyll" <rcitjh@aol.com>
Barry, Bill and Dan:
No bout-a-doubt-it that building and maintaining an aircraft requires the
knowledge and application of gapping techniques. That was not the issue I
addressed.
Noel crudely but clearly stated that Dean shouldn't be flying if he needed
to ask that question. I addressed Noel's missguided assertion. Flying and
gapping are not related. Yes, building and maintaining and gapping are
related.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=72016#72016
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Have You Tried The New Matronics List Forum? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Hello Listers,
One of the major new additions to the Matronics Email Lists this year was the addition
of a new and full function Forum Web Site at:
http://forums.matronics.com
The best part of these new Forums is that they are tied directly to the Classic
email distribution Lists! That also means that posts go in both directions.
If you post a message on the Forum web site, it will be cross posted to the respective
Email List. And, if you post a message to a particular Email List,
it will be cross posted to the same respective forum on the Forum site!
So, no matter what your content viewing pleasure is - either direct email distribution
or web-based GUI interface, you can have it at the Matronics Email Lists!
Won't you make a Contribution to support these Lists? It is your SOLE Contributions
that make their continued operation and upgrade possible!
The Contribution site is Fast, Easy, and Secure. Please surf over and make your
Contribution today:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
----- Original Message -----
From: Vanremog@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:58:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rcitjh@aol.com writes:
No bout-a-doubt-it that building and maintaining an aircraft
requires the knowledge and application of gapping techniques. That was
not the issue I addressed.
Noel crudely but clearly stated that Dean shouldn't be flying if he
needed to ask that question. I addressed Noel's misguided assertion.
Flying and gapping are not related. Yes, building and maintaining and
gapping are related.
=
Life is the ultimate learning process. This list should mostly be
about giving pilots and builders good information with which to go
safely and successfully about their business. It may occasionally be
about conservative congressmen and evangelical leaders getting caught
with their pants down, but not today.
Even the most astute practitioner of a given art is often missing some
critical piece of needed information and it is our obligation to provide
the missing information in a non-judgmental way.
I, for one, am always happy to share what little knowledge that I have
and prefer to see as much information as possible discussed in an open
forum. The consensus or lack thereof among my peers helps me to weigh
the accuracy of the data. Please don't archive.
I'm sure that what Noel meant to say was, this information should be
known by all who commit aviation and that not having this knowledge
could in fact contribute to their demise.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 814hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
I screwed up AGAIN. Sorry guys. I was going to note that "Please don't
archive" in the message below will not work. It has to be "Do Not
Archive" in toto, verbatim but I fat fingered the wrong button on the
window that ask if I wanted to send the message. So now, thanks to me,
we have it in the archives twice. KABONG Do Not Archive. (GBA & GWB)
----- Original Message -----
From: Vanremog@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:58:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rcitjh@aol.com writes:
No bout-a-doubt-it that building and maintaining an aircraft
requires the knowledge and application of gapping techniques. That was
not the issue I addressed.
Noel crudely but clearly stated that Dean shouldn't be flying if he
needed to ask that question. I addressed Noel's misguided assertion.
Flying and gapping are not related. Yes, building and maintaining and
gapping are related.
=
Life is the ultimate learning process. This list should mostly be
about giving pilots and builders good information with which to go
safely and successfully about their business. It may occasionally be
about conservative congressmen and evangelical leaders getting caught
with their pants down, but not today.
Even the most astute practitioner of a given art is often missing some
critical piece of needed information and it is our obligation to provide
the missing information in a non-judgmental way.
I, for one, am always happy to share what little knowledge that I have
and prefer to see as much information as possible discussed in an open
forum. The consensus or lack thereof among my peers helps me to weigh
the accuracy of the data. Please don't archive.
I'm sure that what Noel meant to say was, this information should be
known by all who commit aviation and that not having this knowledge
could in fact contribute to their demise.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 814hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
At 11:25 AM 11/3/2006, you wrote:
>I screwed up AGAIN. Sorry guys. I was going to note that "Please don't
>archive" in the message below will not work. It has to be "Do Not Archive"
>in toto, verbatim but I fat fingered the wrong button on the window that
>ask if I wanted to send the message. So now, thanks to me, we have it in
>the archives twice. KABONG Do Not Archive. (GBA & GWB)
And you are allowed to fly?
Note the deletion of previous unneeded text!
Ron Lee
Do not archive
Message 20
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.edu>
I completely disagree.
There are many dumb questions.
For example, "Do I really want to go flying today?"
Of course I do, any and every day I want to go flying. I may not be up to
flying, or flying in the prevailing conditions, but I always want to go.
Or how about "Do I really have enough fuel?" Like yo duh, if you are
wondering stop asking, go top it off or shorten the flight if you are
already topped off.
Or, "Should I take off into this weather?" Again, dumb question, if you are
wondering go have lunch and a nap until you are no longer wondering.
And a last example of dumb questions is "Should I "do not archive" this?"
However the question of gapping spark plugs was not a dumb one.
I have returned many brand new parts back to the manufacturer that didn't
meet new limit specifications. I once spent three days diagnosing a brand
new factory camshaft that had been misground. I've had timing gears that
were cut out of time, and the list goes on. As well, I've had many cases of
right box, right part number, wrong part.
to err is human; to sign my name on that error qualifies as dumb.
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Gray" <rickgray@roadrunner.com>
I very rarely reply to this stuff but since I personally know Mr. Dean
Pichon who asked the original question I'll jump in and say:
1-Dean isn't a 'new guy' :^).
1-He built and flies one of THEE most gorgeous, well built, and well
maintained RV4's in the country.
2-He not only knows 'how' to gap spark plugs, but he also 'checks' and
'verifies' any/all equipment/parts/etc that he uses on his
airplane/car/whatever....to include spark plugs during engine checks and new
installation.
3-Search the archives and you'll see many posts where he has helped numerous
builders.
4-He was merely curious as to whether or not the plugs were supposed to be
'pre-gapped'.
5-I wasn't paid for this advertisement....just wanted to shed a little light
on it :^).
6-Please continue to ask questions....and I'll continue to learn!
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - losing track of RV projects
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>> What exactly does the knowledge of spark glug gapping
>> have on one's ability to safely fly an aircraft?
>
> Do you deserve to hold the FAA Repairman Certificate for your airplane if
> you don't know how to gap your spark plugs?
>
> I'm not saying a hard yes or no, just playing devil's advocate.
>
> If you are the one who is MAINTAINING your airplane and ensuring its
> airworthiness year after year, KNOW YOUR AIRPLANE, right down to the gap
> of the plugs. Simple mistakes sometimes have huge consequences. Let's
> keep this sport safe and alive for a long time to come. I want to be
> enjoying what we do for another 40+ years before I hang it up.
>
> Ask the questions...definitely ask the questions. Let's spread the
> knowledge as far and wide as we can. It can't hurt to know more.
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D 1124 hours
> www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
>
>
>
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: List Police at it Again |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
>
>Do you deserve to hold the FAA Repairman Certificate for your airplane if
>you don't know how to gap your spark plugs?
>
>I'm not saying a hard yes or no, just playing devil's advocate.
Well, let me see If I get this right. Maybe we should have some sort of
test before we get an FAA Repairman Certificate. Maybe that test should
be, I don't know... how about, yes that is it...build an airplane. What a
test??!
In my case, I held the FAA repairman certificate for three years before I
ever gapped a spark plug??! I never considered gapping a spark plug a
critical skill to be an FAA Repairman.
Every year during the conditional inspection I had my local FAA A&P IA
(remember those guys) clean inspect and gap the plugs and do a compression
check. Why, because he had the tools and equipment to do it and I did
not. Now I have the tools. So I do it.
Yes, I did have numerous questions on how to use the tool and how to gap
the plugs. And worst of all the gapper I bought was too large to gap my
plugs. Maybe if someone had warned me on the list before I bought the
wrong tool things would have gone smoother. But, foolishly, I did not ask
the question, I didn't want my FAA Repairman Certificate yanked by the RV
List Police.
It is too late to yank my certificate now, because I now know how to gap
the plugs. HA!!
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Prop: FP faster than CS? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
>
>What the list should know is that the true secret to Bob's fast speed
>is the hand-brushed olive drab latex house paint finish on his
>airframe.
>
>Bob's night-fighter is so fast, when he comes by to visit me, he's
>gone before I know he's even been here, which explains why I never see
>him - maybe.
Bill
Boy are you in trouble now. Releasing classified National Security Secrets
on the internet are we? I would sure hate to be in your shoes when the
Homeland Security, FBI, ATF, Fincastle Police Department and the worst of
all the Dreaded RV List Police get a hold of you!
Unfortunately, the NightFighter is no more. It will soon emerge as
something else. When one of the locals asked what I was doing, I told him
it would be a surprise. He asked if I was going to paint my aircraft and I
told him that truly would be a surprise. You can't beat that house paint
finish (actually it is not that good) nor can you see it.
Bob
RV6 the former NightFighter
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Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Electronics International gages |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath@comcast.net>
I would like to hear from folks using any of the Electronic International
Gages. The backlighting for the digital read out portion may be connected
to a panel rheostat to dim the backlighting. The instructions say to
permanently power up the backlight control line which is what I have
installed. However, I'm wondering about the merits of changing this and run
the power lines thru a panel rheostat to be able to dim them. The LED
lights are on a separate dimmer, as per instructions.
Anyone have flying experience behind one or more of these gages to provide
some user advice? Thanks.
Marty in Brentwood TN {Wiring panel}
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Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Electronics International gages |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Story <PStory@mn.rr.com>
On Nov 3, 2006, at 3:50 PM, Emrath wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath@comcast.net>
>
> I would like to hear from folks using any of the Electronic
> International
> Gages. The backlighting for the digital read out portion may be
> connected
> to a panel rheostat to dim the backlighting. The instructions say to
> permanently power up the backlight control line which is what I have
> installed. However, I'm wondering about the merits of changing this
> and run
> the power lines thru a panel rheostat to be able to dim them. The LED
> lights are on a separate dimmer, as per instructions.
> Anyone have flying experience behind one or more of these gages to
> provide
> some user advice? Thanks.
>
> Marty in Brentwood TN {Wiring panel}
Marty,
I had the clock, UBG 16 and the fuel flow in my 172. The
backlighting was never too bright even in the darkest of cockpit
lighting. I hooked up the dimmer (for the LEDs and the UBG-16) but
seldom used it.
paul story
RV-6A
building a 7A
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Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
Hi All,
I had no idea my innocent post would generate so much interest and consume
so much bandwidth. In hindsight, I should have posted a more detailed
question or perhaps nothing at all.
In my quest perform as much prep work as possible for my annual in my
basement rather than at the airport, I had considered gapping my shiny new
plugs at home, prior to going to the airport. I decided I didn't want to
open the protective package only to find that all the plugs were within
specification. Thanks to the person who indicated the plugs are gapped and
generally within spec.
With that knowledge, I left for the airport this morning, armed with my gap
gauge and gap setting tool and 8 new spark plugs. Much to my pleasure, I
found all plugs within tolerance and installed them quite quickly.
It was never about whether I had to check the gaps, but rather the liklihood
that would have have to re-set the gaps. Thanks to all. I have learned
much from this experience.
Regards,
Dean Pichon
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
Subject: RV-List: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
Hi All,
I just received some new Champion spark plugs and would like to know if they
come pre-gapped. I am reluctant to open the moisture-proof packaging to
check. Does anyone out there know whether or not these arrive ready to
install?
Thanks,
Dean Pichon
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search!
_________________________________________________________________
Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
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Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Tonight I installed 12 new plugs in my IO-540. I bought Iridium
fine wire aircraft plugs for the bottoms, and I got a great bulk
deal on some exact replacement Denso W24EMR-C's for the Lightspeed
ignited top plugs. I found every one of the Iridium plugs was
either exactly at, or within 1 thousandth over the spec for the
aircraft plugs. I found every one of the Densos was either right
at spec, or perhaps gapped maybe .001 undersized...but by the
time I squished in the feeler gauge they were right on.
I'll still check the gaps each time before I install them, but
so far on cars/snowmobiles/airplanes I've been lucky enough to
have most every plug I've ever grabbed be within spec
right out of the box.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dean Pichon wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I had no idea my innocent post would generate so much interest and
> consume so much bandwidth. In hindsight, I should have posted a more
> detailed question or perhaps nothing at all.
>
> In my quest perform as much prep work as possible for my annual in my
> basement rather than at the airport, I had considered gapping my shiny
> new plugs at home, prior to going to the airport. I decided I didn't
> want to open the protective package only to find that all the plugs were
> within specification. Thanks to the person who indicated the plugs are
> gapped and generally within spec.
>
> With that knowledge, I left for the airport this morning, armed with my
> gap gauge and gap setting tool and 8 new spark plugs. Much to my
> pleasure, I found all plugs within tolerance and installed them quite
> quickly.
>
> It was never about whether I had to check the gaps, but rather the
> liklihood that would have have to re-set the gaps. Thanks to all. I
> have learned much from this experience.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dean Pichon
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
> Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:47:30 -0500
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just received some new Champion spark plugs and would like to know if
> they come pre-gapped. I am reluctant to open the moisture-proof
> packaging to check. Does anyone out there know whether or not these
> arrive ready to install?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dean Pichon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Live Search!
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
> https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Philosophy of the "Repairman" |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> It was never about whether I had to check the gaps, but rather the
> liklihood that would have have to re-set the gaps. Thanks to all. I have
> learned much from this experience.
To me this whole thing borders on philosophical more than anything else.
It's subjective. I mean...there are certain things we "choose" to take for
granted, and certain things we don't.
When I buy new spark plugs I just can't bring myself to trust that they were
gapped right, regardless of what anybody tells me is done by the mfr and
regardless of the "perfect track record so far." It's the "you never know"
factor for me. So I always check. And yep, most of the time they're dead
on. But I still check.
Then on the flip side...there's the pre-assembled engine I bought. I didn't
tear the engine down to make sure it was built right. I put my confidence
(and $$$!) in the builder because I don't have the tools or knowledge to do
it as safely myself.
So where do I draw the line? Spark plug gapping or engine build-up. Where
do YOU draw the line? Very subjective.
I guess my personal philosophy is...if I CAN check it and it's relatively
easy to check, why not check it?! If I don't have the knowledge on how to
check it, I buy or borrow or download the manual and/or ask questions or
watch somebody experienced do it the first time. I usually at least look
into pricing up the tools if I don't have 'em already. If the tool is
pricey but it's something I'll use repeatedly over the next several decades,
I can rationalize having it. If having a certain tool will make me a safer
Repairman and thus make my friends & family safer as passengers, by all
means I can rationalize that.
I find I'm often loaning out my compression tester, mag timing buzz box, and
oil filter cutter. I'm of the mind that every Repairman ought to have these
tools for their airplanes, but obviously not everybody feels that way...easy
for them to borrow when they need 'em. For me, it's like...I want to have
the tool on-hand when I need it. I'm less likely to say, "Ehhh, I'll get to
that on the NEXT oil change," if I have the tool in the drawer rather than
having to borrow it. I feel safer and more confident that way.
I know I'm not the only builder/Repairman out there who feels this way, but
I also recognize this isn't the ONLY way of thinking about it.
Again, this is all very subjective!
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com
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Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
Thank you Vanremog . Your way with words is better than mine. My main
concern is one of safety. I made a hasty reply that was not appropriate.
I have apologised "of list" to the original post, I do so now to the
list.
Happy building and safe flying Noel
----- Original Message -----
From: Vanremog@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
In a message dated 11/3/2006 8:58:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rcitjh@aol.com writes:
No bout-a-doubt-it that building and maintaining an aircraft
requires the knowledge and application of gapping techniques. That was
not the issue I addressed.
Noel crudely but clearly stated that Dean shouldn't be flying if he
needed to ask that question. I addressed Noel's misguided assertion.
Flying and gapping are not related. Yes, building and maintaining and
gapping are related.
=
Life is the ultimate learning process. This list should mostly be
about giving pilots and builders good information with which to go
safely and successfully about their business. It may occasionally be
about conservative congressmen and evangelical leaders getting caught
with their pants down, but not today.
Even the most astute practitioner of a given art is often missing some
critical piece of needed information and it is our obligation to provide
the missing information in a non-judgmental way.
I, for one, am always happy to share what little knowledge that I have
and prefer to see as much information as possible discussed in an open
forum. The consensus or lack thereof among my peers helps me to weigh
the accuracy of the data. Please don't archive.
I'm sure that what Noel meant to say was, this information should be
known by all who commit aviation and that not having this knowledge
could in fact contribute to their demise.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 814hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
3/11/2006
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | RV-6 Crash in PHX-Larry Olson |
Well, it hasn't been mentioned on here yet, so I guess I'll be the one to break
the news. Our good friend Larry Olson, used to be on the list for a number of
years, has passed. It appears he hit some wires over a lake near Phoenix.
To those of you who knew him, you know what a great guy he was, and how much
he will be missed. To those of you that didn't, well, you missed out. I wish
I had a nickel for everytime he lent a hand to someone.
Godspeed, Larry.
Paul Besing
---------------------------------
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Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Electronics International gages |
The dimming is kind of weird with their instruments in that they require multiple
dimmers. I have the UBG 16 and the fuel flow meter as well. My panel rheostat
for the LED/LCD is probably the wrong type, because it's kind of a all dark
or all brite setting. The rheostat the came with the UBG16 works fine as advertised.
I just wish there was a way to uniformly dim the entire panel.
Other than that, the instruments are great. And you REALLY can't beat their
customer service. First class.
Paul Besing
Paul Story <PStory@mn.rr.com> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Story
On Nov 3, 2006, at 3:50 PM, Emrath wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath"
>
> I would like to hear from folks using any of the Electronic
> International
> Gages. The backlighting for the digital read out portion may be
> connected
> to a panel rheostat to dim the backlighting. The instructions say to
> permanently power up the backlight control line which is what I have
> installed. However, I'm wondering about the merits of changing this
> and run
> the power lines thru a panel rheostat to be able to dim them. The LED
> lights are on a separate dimmer, as per instructions.
> Anyone have flying experience behind one or more of these gages to
> provide
> some user advice? Thanks.
>
> Marty in Brentwood TN {Wiring panel}
Marty,
I had the clock, UBG 16 and the fuel flow in my 172. The
backlighting was never too bright even in the darkest of cockpit
lighting. I hooked up the dimmer (for the LEDs and the UBG-16) but
seldom used it.
paul story
RV-6A
building a 7A
---------------------------------
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Oh cool. I was wondering if you were going to install them without
opening up the package. ;=)
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dean Pichon
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Gapping Spark Plugs- The Rest of the Story
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
Hi All,
I had no idea my innocent post would generate so much interest and
consume
so much bandwidth. In hindsight, I should have posted a more detailed
question or perhaps nothing at all.
In my quest perform as much prep work as possible for my annual in my
basement rather than at the airport, I had considered gapping my shiny
new
plugs at home, prior to going to the airport. I decided I didn't want
to
open the protective package only to find that all the plugs were within
specification. Thanks to the person who indicated the plugs are gapped
and
generally within spec.
With that knowledge, I left for the airport this morning, armed with my
gap
gauge and gap setting tool and 8 new spark plugs. Much to my pleasure,
I
found all plugs within tolerance and installed them quite quickly.
It was never about whether I had to check the gaps, but rather the
liklihood
that would have have to re-set the gaps. Thanks to all. I have learned
much from this experience.
Regards,
Dean Pichon
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
Subject: RV-List: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <deanpichon@msn.com>
Hi All,
I just received some new Champion spark plugs and would like to know if
they
come pre-gapped. I am reluctant to open the moisture-proof packaging to
check. Does anyone out there know whether or not these arrive ready to
install?
Thanks,
Dean Pichon
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Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Spark Plugs & Repairman |
--> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper <skylor4@yahoo.com>
List,
One thing that seems to be lost in the noise regarding
checking of spark plug gaps:
You don't even need a repairman certifcate to legally
clean or replace spark plugs and set the spark plug
gap.
This is clearly defined in Part 43, Appendix A,
supbart C, paragraph 20.
Any owner licensed pilot/owner may perform preventive
maintenance of Part 91 aircraft, which includes
"Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of
spark plug gap clearance."
I bring this up, because much of the discussion
related to spark plug gapping seems to be centered
around "holders of repairman certificates". A
repairman certificate has absolutely nothing to do
with legally gapping spark plugs, though I assume most
believe that the holder of a repairman's certificate
should know how!
Skylor
__________________________________________________
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs |
AGGGH....now it's in the archives at least 3 times. "Please don't
archive" doesn't work. It's "DO NOT ARCHIVE". As they say, once a cop
always a cop. KABONG.
----- Original Message -----
From: noel anderson
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
Thank you Vanremog . Your way with words is better than mine. My main
concern is one of safety. I made a hasty reply that was not appropriate.
I have apologised "of list" to the original post, I do so now to the
list.
Happy building and safe flying Noel
----- Original Message -----
From: Vanremog@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gapping Champion Spark Plugs
I, for one, am always happy to share what little knowledge that I
have and prefer to see as much information as possible discussed in an
open forum. The consensus or lack thereof among my peers helps me to
weigh the accuracy of the data. Please don't archive.
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