---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/22/06: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 01:02 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:52 AM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (Smitty) 2. 04:09 AM - Re: : Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings (Dana Overall) 3. 04:37 AM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 4. 05:14 AM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (Dale Ensing) 5. 06:04 AM - RV-List Digest: Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings (Condon, Philip M.) 6. 07:50 AM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (Brian Meyette) 7. 09:09 AM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (Randy Lervold) 8. 02:27 PM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (WILLIAM AGSTER) 9. 02:57 PM - Re: Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings (flyadive@aol.com) 10. 04:24 PM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (HCRV6@comcast.net) 11. 04:47 PM - Re: Searching for a self-etching primer (pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper)) 12. 05:57 PM - Dynon electrical questions (Dana Overall) 13. 06:53 PM - RV-8 Service Ceiling (Jack Blomgren) 14. 07:23 PM - Re: RV-8 Service Ceiling (Ron Lee) 15. 08:11 PM - Re: Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings (Vanremog@aol.com) 16. 08:21 PM - Re: RV-8 Service Ceiling (Kelly McMullen) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:30 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:02 AM PST US From: "Smitty" Subject: Re: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer I'm using 988 - G.B.P. Self Etching Primer Aerosol from Sherwin Williams and like it a lot. http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/products/show_product.cfm?product=7565 Smitty's RV-9A http://SmittysRV.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul A. Barker" Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:57 PM Subject: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer > > This is not intended to re-ignite the primer wars, but my building partner > and I have decided to prime the inside of our aircraft. Although corrosion > isn't a big issue here in the middle of the middle west, we don't know > that the aircraft will spend all of its days here. > > We want to keep it simple. We've heard some passing references to > self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been > using with success. We would like to find something that comes packaged in > rattle cans for small jobs, but is also available by the gallon when we > move to larger assemblies. > > P. A. Barker > RV-9 (tail kit) > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:23 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: : Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings OK, that is good enough for me. I took the "do not thing" off my signature line. Great work guys. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html >From: Kelly McMullen >The only fitting that has to be steel is the prop governor line connection >at the front of the case, for those Lycomings with rear mounted governors. >Those were aluminum originally and had a history of cracking. linn Walters >wrote: >>Originally I heard that it was due to aluminum melting prior to steel in a >>fire. OK, that's reasonable if you plan on an engine compartment fire. >>However, I doubt the integrity of the fittings will make a whole lot of >>difference in the eventual outcome. Then someone said that steel >>fittings were more resistant to o >>fatigue cracking. OK, that sounds reasonable. Balance the prop. >>FWIW, I have aluminum fittings in the engine compartment of my Pitts >>...... because I had them and it was before I knew about the 'concern'. >>They've been faithful for 25 years now. Hmmm. Maybe I should worry??? >>Wonder what the warranty period is. >>Linn _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:04 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer In a message dated 11/21/2006 11:01:11 PM Central Standard Time, pbarker@hughes.net writes: We've heard some passing references to self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been using with success. Have a look-see here: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4863 Still very pleased with the 988. >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:53 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer Paul, I used both the SW and the SEM self etching primers and found them equal in performance. Suggest you buy the one that is convenient for you to purchase. Not sure if either one is available in exact same formulation in gallons. I switched to the rattle cans after using a gallon of the SW wash primer. Hard to beat the convenience of the rattle cans. Application note for rattle cans: Spray on light wet coats. If applied too dry (rattle can too far from substrate) the acid etch can not do it's job of getting a bite into the aluminum. Dale Ensing > We want to keep it simple. We've heard some passing references to > self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been > using with success. We would like to find something that comes packaged in > rattle cans for small jobs, but is also available by the gallon when we > move to larger assemblies. > > P. A. Barker > RV-9 (tail kit) > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:32 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: RV-List Digest: Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings From: "Condon, Philip M." Steel fuel fittings in the carb is used on all GA aircraft I have been associated with Over the years. The only reason that comes to mind is - when I've worked on some aircraft the Hoses were so dry rotted and stiff, and by stiff I mean rock hard stiff, that the engine vibs, Shaking and movement were allowing more strain and stress on the carb fittings - and hence the carb Body. Maybe the aluminum fitting would fail prior to the steel fitting. Real answer is hose replacement But you would surprised at the condition of hoses after a few years(this is a stretch). The fire Issue mentioned is another reason to use steel, again another stretch. Also, a stress fracture in a carb fuel Fitting would spray fuel around the exhaust area. Oil return lines are aluminum as are the fittings on all aircraft I've seen. I would not try to rethink this one and go with the flow(no pun intended). If there were ever a post crash Investigation, using steel here would give the fed one less thing to write up..... Also also, the steel fitting on the front mounted case for prop governor is a mandatory (by AD) steel fitting. I Would tend to go with the flow here too and use steel. ....................................................................... .................................. Time: 09:34:32 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: : Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings The only fitting that has to be steel is the prop governor line connection at the front of the case, for those Lycomings with rear mounted governors. Those were aluminum originally and had a history of cracking. That is required by AD. The rest generally are aluminum. linn Walters wrote: > > Originally I heard that it was due to aluminum melting prior to steel > in a fire. OK, that's reasonable if you plan on an engine compartment > fire. However, I doubt the integrity of the fittings will make a > whole lot of difference in the eventual outcome. Then someone said > that steel fittings were more resistant to fatigue cracking. OK, that > sounds reasonable. Balance the prop. > FWIW, I have aluminum fittings in the engine compartment of my Pitts > ...... because I had them and it was before I knew about the > 'concern'. They've been faithful for 25 years now. Hmmm. Maybe I > should worry??? Wonder what the warranty period is. > Linn > > Dana Overall wrote: > >> >>> Hi Dana, Reread the previous post...the fitting described here with >>> the O-ring and jam nut enables you to clock the fitting in the >>> direction you choose....then tighten the jam nut against the O-ring >>> to seal it tight. The fitting happens to be steel but it doesn't >>> have anything to do with the steel vs. aluminum topic. The fitting >>> can also come with a port for the fuel pressure line....I think you >>> may have one of these on the upstream end of the hose......don't >>> have pic in front of me??? >> >> >> >> Hey Rick what are you doing not working on the 10:-) >> >> Yes, I have both the fitting you talk about however, I have heard >> from so many people saying you ONLY want to use steel fittings on >> anything on the engine. Now is just a good time, with the alum >> fitting I was using to orient the hose, to discuss what is the deal >> with using only steel fittings when ECI and Van's both supply us with >> alum fitting either on the cyls. or with the firewall forward kit. >> >> PS, I have some alum fittings and some steel. >> >> Dana Overall >> Richmond, KY i39 >> RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" >> O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 >> http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html >> do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:36 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer Everyone will have a different opinion on primers, but I used to use SEM and now I use the NAPA brand. The NAPA brand has a much better nozzle and in my experience, the paint stick better. brian http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul A. Barker Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:57 PM Subject: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer This is not intended to re-ignite the primer wars, but my building partner and I have decided to prime the inside of our aircraft. Although corrosion isn't a big issue here in the middle of the middle west, we don't know that the aircraft will spend all of its days here. We want to keep it simple. We've heard some passing references to self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been using with success. We would like to find something that comes packaged in rattle cans for small jobs, but is also available by the gallon when we move to larger assemblies. P. A. Barker RV-9 (tail kit) -- 9:20 PM -- 9:01 AM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:16 AM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer Ditto on the SEM, further info here... http://www.romeolima.com/RV3works/Airframe/airframe.htm#Primer Randy Lervold ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradley Oliver" Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:53 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer > > > Have a look at SEM Self-Etching Primer. It comes in rattle-cans, quarts, > and gallons. > http://www.sem.ws/product.php?product_id=139 > > I really like the stuff. > > Brad Oliver > RV-7 | Livermore, CA > www.RV7Factory.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Barker > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:57 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer > > > This is not intended to re-ignite the primer wars, but my building partner > and I have decided to prime the inside of our aircraft. Although corrosion > isn't a big issue here in the middle of the middle west, we don't know > that > the aircraft will spend all of its days here. > > We want to keep it simple. We've heard some passing references to > self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been > using > with success. We would like to find something that comes packaged in > rattle > cans for small jobs, but is also available by the gallon when we move to > larger assemblies. > > P. A. Barker > RV-9 (tail kit) > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:14 PM PST US From: "WILLIAM AGSTER" Subject: Re: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer I am using the alumiprep, alodine, and AKZO two part epoxy primer on all structural parts and using the Stewart Systems white primer on the insides of all skins. The Stewart Systems product is great, easy to spray with a small air detail spray gun and cleans up easy with water. MY reasons are that I am told it make for easy detection for any cracks in interior, leaking fluids, smoking rivets, and brightens up interior when inspecting. I am really happy with the ease of application and the toughness of the product (read fairly resistant to scratching when assembling parts). I do not use it fast enough to buy the gallons, but I buy it by the quart. Roughly six quarts will do all interior skins on a -7. I have a friend who is using it on all skins and all structural parts on a 9A. He turned me on to the product and it is great! I probably will be painting my exterior with Stewart Systems also. Bill Agster 7A-N174BJ reserved ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul A. Barker To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer > This is not intended to re-ignite the primer wars, but my building partner and I have decided to prime the inside of our aircraft. Although corrosion isn't a big issue here in the middle of the middle west, we don't know that the aircraft will spend all of its days here. We want to keep it simple. We've heard some passing references to self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been using with success. We would like to find something that comes packaged in rattle cans for small jobs, but is also available by the gallon when we move to larger assemblies. P. A. Barker RV-9 (tail kit) www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.kitlog.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List:Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings From: flyadive@aol.com Dana, posts some good reasons to use steel fittings but the real reasons is much more simple ... GAULING ... Some call it FRETTING ... I don't want to get into definitions but what happens is Aluminum running against Aluminum as in THREADS causes pieces of aluminum to be puller from each other. This CLOGS the threads and will prevent the fittings from coming apart. Get a bigger wrench you say! Then the result will be SNAP OFF ... Not to be confused with the tool manufacture SNAP ON. Bottom line: Do not aluminum threads against each other. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ================================ -----Original Message----- From: pcondon@mitre.org Sent: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RV-List: RV-List Digest: Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings Steel fuel fittings in the carb is used on all GA aircraft I have been associated with Over the years. The only reason that comes to mind is - when I've worked on some aircraft the Hoses were so dry rotted and stiff, and by stiff I mean rock hard stiff, that the engine vibs, Shaking and movement were allowing more strain and stress on the carb fittings - and hence the carb Body. Maybe the aluminum fitting would fail prior to the steel fitting. Real answer is hose replacement But you would surprised at the condition of hoses after a few years(this is a stretch). The fire Issue mentioned is another reason to use steel, again another stretch. Also, a stress fracture in a carb fuel Fitting would spray fuel around the exhaust area. Oil return lines are aluminum as are the fittings on all aircraft I've seen. I would not try to rethink this one and go with the flow(no pun intended). If there were ever a post crash Investigation, using steel here would give the fed one less thing to write up..... Also also, the steel fitting on the front mounted case for prop governor is a mandatory (by AD) steel fitting. I Would tend to go with the flow here too and use steel. ....................................................................... .................................. Time: 09:34:32 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: : Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings The only fitting that has to be steel is the prop governor line connection at the front of the case, for those Lycomings with rear mounted governors. Those were aluminum originally and had a history of cracking. That is required by AD. The rest generally are aluminum. linn Walters wrote: > > Originally I heard that it was due to aluminum melting prior to steel > in a fire. OK, that's reasonable if you plan on an engine compartment > fire. However, I doubt the integrity of the fittings will make a > whole lot of difference in the eventual outcome. Then someone said > that steel fittings were more resistant to fatigue cracking. OK, that > sounds reasonable. Balance the prop. > FWIW, I have aluminum fittings in the engine compartment of my Pitts > ...... because I had them and it was before I knew about the > 'concern'. They've been faithful for 25 years now. Hmmm. Maybe I > should worry??? Wonder what the warranty period is. > Linn > > Dana Overall wrote: > >> >>> Hi Dana, Reread the previous post...the fitting described here with >>> the O-ring and jam nut enables you to clock the fitting in the >>> direction you choose....then tighten the jam nut against the O-ring >>> to seal it tight. The fitting happens to be steel but it doesn't >>> have anything to do with the steel vs. aluminum topic. The fitting >>> can also come with a port for the fuel pressure line....I think you >>> may have one of these on the upstream end of the hose......don't >>> have pic in front of me??? >> >> >> >> Hey Rick what are you doing not working on the 10:-) >> >> Yes, I have both the fitting you talk about however, I have heard >> from so many people saying you ONLY want to use steel fittings on >> anything on the engine. Now is just a good time, with the alum >> fitting I was using to orient the hose, to discuss what is the deal >> with using only steel fittings when ECI and Van's both supply us with >> alum fitting either on the cyls. or with the firewall forward kit. >> >> PS, I have some alum fittings and some steel. >> >> Dana Overall >> Richmond, KY i39 >> RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" >> O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 >> http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html >> do not archive > > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:11 PM PST US From: HCRV6@comcast.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer SEM self etching primer is good but a word of caution is in order. If you plan to apply a finish coat over the SEM you must first lay on a coat of regular primer that is compatible with the finish. If you skip this step you will find that the finish coat doesen't adhere well to the SEM and the top coat will eventually start to peel in places, usually the most visible and obvious places. Don't bother asking me how I learned this. -- Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 291 hours -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Bradley Oliver" > > > Have a look at SEM Self-Etching Primer. It comes in rattle-cans, quarts, > and gallons. > http://www.sem.ws/product.php?product_id=139 > > I really like the stuff. > > Brad Oliver > RV-7 | Livermore, CA > www.RV7Factory.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Barker > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 8:57 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Searching for a self-etching primer > > > This is not intended to re-ignite the primer wars, but my building partner > and I have decided to prime the inside of our aircraft. Although corrosion > isn't a big issue here in the middle of the middle west, we don't know that > the aircraft will spend all of its days here. > > We want to keep it simple. We've heard some passing references to > self-etching primers and would like to know which ones folks have been using > with success. We would like to find something that comes packaged in rattle > cans for small jobs, but is also available by the gallon when we move to > larger assemblies. > > P. A. Barker > RV-9 (tail kit) > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:47:54 PM PST US From: pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper) Subject: RV-List: Re: Searching for a self-etching primer The owner of my local PPG store recommended the SEM Self-Etching Primer in a rattle can for small parts. He said it will be fine to later spray PPG primers and top coats over it. Pete Cowper RV-8 #81139 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:58 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Dynon electrical questions First off, Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Working on the final sensor hookups firewall forward and have a couple questions for you Dynon installers. Dynon list pins 5,16 & 17 as shared sensor grounds with pin 3 being the avionics bus ground. I wired in the fuel pressure sensor and simply ran a ground from the sensor to the my ground bus and grounded using the 5,16, 17. I got the same 0 reading both ways on the screen. Any problem going directly to the bus? The reason I ask, if I add something in the future and use up 5,16 and 17 on my initial install, I want to be able to have an out without splicing. Pin 18 is the +5V excitation wire for sensors such as carb temp and manifold pressure. Since this is only one wire, I was thinking of using a small bus bar to leave open future possibilities. Anyone got any pics of a simple splice? Getting close and loving it. Just a hint http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html do not archive _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId00,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata 0601&tcode=wlmtagline ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:26 PM PST US From: "Jack Blomgren" Subject: RV-List: RV-8 Service Ceiling Can someone please provide the accepted service ceiling for an RV-8 with an IO-360 and Sensenich metal prop. 'Shop checking my altimeter and transponder in place says needs this altitude figure. Thanks Much in Advance, Jack _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:07 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 Service Ceiling >Can someone please provide the accepted service ceiling for an RV-8 with >an IO-360 and Sensenich metal prop. 'Shop checking my altimeter and >transponder in place says needs this altitude figure. I would use 23,000' according to this link: http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-8per.htm 180 HP and solo. I never has anyone ask me the same for my plane. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:47 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List:Fuel line question (Dana) Now Steel fittings In a message dated 11/22/2006 3:00:15 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, flyadive@aol.com writes: GAULING ... Some call it FRETTING ======================================= Galling and fretting are, technically speaking, two different phenomena. Galling is actually a friction weld, where the intimacy of two like materials causes them to roughen locally and fuse together at the high pressure interface. It can be broken up thru the use of certain lubricants (molydisulfide, fuel lube and Loctite PST reduce the galling of aluminum and stainless steel fittings). Fretting is the result of micromotion or hammering together of two non-intimate surfaces. This results in work hardening, surface removal exposing fresh surfaces to be degraded and ultimately micro-cracking. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 816hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:01 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 Service Ceiling Better to tell the shop to use 20,000 ft. Otherwise you need an altimeter certified higher, either 30 or 35K, which will cost you more. No sense in doing it unless you intend to use it. Ron Lee wrote: > > >> Can someone please provide the accepted service ceiling for an RV-8 >> with an IO-360 and Sensenich metal prop. 'Shop checking my altimeter >> and transponder in place says needs this altitude figure. > > I would use 23,000' according to this link: > > http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-8per.htm > > 180 HP and solo. > > I never has anyone ask me the same for my plane. > > Ron Lee > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.