Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: Re: Fuel vents (Rick Gray)
2. 04:21 AM - Re: Bell Crank Brass Bushing (Dana Overall)
3. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Fuel vents (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
4. 09:44 AM - bell crank bushing ailerons (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
5. 09:48 AM - Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Terry Watson)
6. 12:37 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Paul Besing)
7. 01:13 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (John Porter)
8. 01:15 PM - Re: ADI Pilot (Charles Rowbotham)
9. 01:18 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Jerry Springer)
10. 01:22 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Terry Watson)
11. 01:30 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Richard E. Tasker)
12. 02:20 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Jeff Point)
13. 02:38 PM - Re: bell crank bushing ailerons (LarryRobertHelming)
14. 02:56 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (LarryRobertHelming)
15. 03:00 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Ron Lee)
16. 03:08 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Bob Collins)
17. 03:13 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Jerry Springer)
18. 03:35 PM - Bell Crank Brass Bushing (George Inman 204 287 8334)
19. 03:39 PM - Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (JOHN STARN)
20. 03:52 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (JOHN STARN)
21. 03:55 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Paul Besing)
22. 04:29 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Terry Watson)
23. 04:44 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Jerry Springer)
24. 04:46 PM - SA tube bending article (Bob J.)
25. 05:03 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Rob Prior)
26. 05:43 PM - Chase needed for 1st flight of RV-8 at FTG this Sunday (Puckett, Gregory [DENTK])
27. 05:43 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Jerry Springer)
28. 05:57 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Paul Besing)
29. 06:20 PM - Re: Chase needed for 1st flight of RV-8 at FTG this Sunday (Kevin Horton)
30. 06:27 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Phil Birkelbach)
31. 07:09 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Dan Checkoway)
32. 07:23 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Bob Perkinson)
33. 08:03 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (Jerry Springer)
34. 08:59 PM - Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots (JOHN STARN)
35. 11:31 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
36. 11:40 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuel vents |
Yo' Crossfire,
This is the vent line you're talking about....Randy Planzer did this on
his F1 Rocket....pic from his site:
http://tinyurl.com/yj3v5d
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
----- Original Message -----
From: glaesers
To: RV-List@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:23 PM
Subject: RV-List: RE: Fuel vents
Remember that the engine is (hopefully) constantly drawing fuel from
the
tank, and the air to replace the fuel comes in through the vent. So
as long
as the engine is running, there is a constant flow of air into the
tank
through the vent.
Fuel doesn't flow out the vent from the unused tank even during
maneuvers
because it is (again, hopefully) sealed and there is no air coming in
to
allow the fuel to flow out the vent - similar to dipping a tube into
liquid,
then holding your finger over the end and pulling it out.
Fuel can not 'block' the vent, it just flows in or out depending on
the
relative pressure inside the tank vs. outside air pressure. The loops
in
the Rocket style vent are there so that, under normal circumstances,
there
is not enough fuel in the line to over-fill it, and spill fuel
overboard.
Dennis Glaeser
RV-7A - wiring my panel, waiting for my Eggenfeller H6 - wings have
the
Rocket style vents installed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
-----------------------
From: Tim Bryan (n616tb@btsapps.com)
Well, if it works then it works. My question would be how to keep
fuel out
of the vent line. With the stock design, if you bank steep or do
aerobatics
will fuel enter the vent and then run back to the tank because of the
height
in the vent? With coils could you get fuel in the coil and have it
not run
back thereby blocking the vent? Just a question, but sounds like a
reasonable thing to do. Fuel inside is almost unavoidable with the
valve
design.
Tim
Message 2
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| Subject: | Bell Crank Brass Bushing |
Brad, , what you posted will work fine. Reamer, drill bit, whatever will
center itself good enough fo this application. Drill, ream and move on.
Don't spend excess money or lose sleep over this, it "ain't" much.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
>From: Brad Oliver <brad@rv7factory.com>
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Bell Crank Brass Bushing
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:24:15 -0700
>
>
>I haven't done this yet, so I should probably just keep my head down and
>my mouth shut, but it is a slow day at work. ;-) Here is what I am
>*thinking* of doing when the time comes, which should be very soon. It
>may seem convoluted, but it should only take a few minutes. Please,
>somebody tell me I am crazy, or shoot holes in my proposed method. ;-)
>
>1. On the the drill press, drill a small (3" square or so) scrap piece
>of wood with drill bit that is equal to or slightly smaller than the OD
>of the bushing. If you have a drill press vise, this step may not be
>necessary.
>2. Cut the wood in half bisecting the circle you just drilled
>3. Insert bushing between pieces of wood and clamp (in drilled hole).
>Cutting the wood in half should have removed enough material to allow
>you to clamp the bushing so it won't move, if not, sand away some of
>the wood along where you just cut to allow it to clamp the bushing.
>4. Locate a drill bit that is equal to the ID of the bushing, and insert
>it into the drill press (hopefully it is a common size).
>5. Put the clamped bushing assembly onto drill press table and crank
>down the bit (while drill press is off) into the bushing to center the
>clamped bushing assembly on the drill bit, then while the bit is
>holding the assembly centered, clamp the the assembly to the table.
>6. Release the handle and remove the bit, then insert the appropriate
>reamer and ream away. Theoretically, the reamer should be centered
>perfectly (I hope).
>
>If someone is brave enough to try this before I get to it, please let me
>know how it works out. :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Brad Oliver
>RV-7 | Livermore, CA
>www.RV7Factory.com
>
>
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: RV-List: Bell Crank Brass Bushing
> > From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" <jfogarty@tds.net>
> > Date: Wed, November 29, 2006 10:25 am
> > To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >
> >
> > What is the best way to size the bushing to 1/4" to receive the AN4 bolt
>on the RV9 bell crank for the aileron. I think this should be done with my
>drill press, however, it is hard to keep the bushing straight, please let
>me know what you think and how you did it. Thanks.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuel vents |
Rick, That looks like a great idea! I have had problems on hot days with
the vents on my RV6-A spitting fuel. Wonder if the loops of line in the
wing root area would allow more expansion before starting to
spit....spit?
Tom in Ohio (10G)
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Gray
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Fuel vents
Yo' Crossfire,
This is the vent line you're talking about....Randy Planzer did this
on his F1 Rocket....pic from his site:
http://tinyurl.com/yj3v5d
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/
----- Original Message -----
From: glaesers
To: RV-List@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:23 PM
Subject: RV-List: RE: Fuel vents
<glaesers@wideopenwest.com>
Remember that the engine is (hopefully) constantly drawing fuel from
the
tank, and the air to replace the fuel comes in through the vent. So
as long
as the engine is running, there is a constant flow of air into the
tank
through the vent.
Fuel doesn't flow out the vent from the unused tank even during
maneuvers
because it is (again, hopefully) sealed and there is no air coming
in to
allow the fuel to flow out the vent - similar to dipping a tube into
liquid,
then holding your finger over the end and pulling it out.
Fuel can not 'block' the vent, it just flows in or out depending on
the
relative pressure inside the tank vs. outside air pressure. The
loops in
the Rocket style vent are there so that, under normal circumstances,
there
is not enough fuel in the line to over-fill it, and spill fuel
overboard.
Dennis Glaeser
RV-7A - wiring my panel, waiting for my Eggenfeller H6 - wings have
the
Rocket style vents installed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
-----------------------
From: Tim Bryan (n616tb@btsapps.com)
Well, if it works then it works. My question would be how to keep
fuel out
of the vent line. With the stock design, if you bank steep or do
aerobatics
will fuel enter the vent and then run back to the tank because of
the height
in the vent? With coils could you get fuel in the coil and have it
not run
back thereby blocking the vent? Just a question, but sounds like a
reasonable thing to do. Fuel inside is almost unavoidable with the
-- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free *
AeroElectric http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous bsp;
-Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Navigator
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
====================
Message 4
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| Subject: | bell crank bushing ailerons |
Thanks for all the great advise on my question on the bell crank brass
bushing. I did get the first one that I reamed out with the 1/4" bit on
my drill press to work just fine. I used two plastic blocks in the
drill press vise to hold the bushing so I would not damage the shaft.
Time will tell if I go to a machine shop to do the second bushing or
just use Brad's method on the drill press after drilling and forming my
plastic blocks.
Hey, thanks for all your help. It would be nice if the bushing came
from Van's ready for the 1/4" bolt, but this is all about learning the
building process and understanding all the parts in the plane.
Jim Fogarty
RV9a Breezy Point, MN
Message 5
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| Subject: | Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I saw this under $100 12 volt back-up monitor for cars at Costco that might
work for filling in the blind spot when taxiing a tail wheel aircraft. The
link is to the product at WallMart. I saw it at Costco for $90 ($89.99 in
Costco language). http://tinyurl.com/yz5wqu
Terry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Uhh......I sure hope someone who is taxiing a tailwheel airplane (or any airplane
for that matter) isn't looking at a tv monitor! Maybe this is a joke?
Paul Besing
do not archive
Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
I saw this under $100 12 volt back-up monitor for cars at Costco that might work for filling in the blind spot when taxiing a tail wheel aircraft. The link is to the product at WallMart. I saw it at Costco for $90 ($89.99 in Costco language). http://tinyurl.com/yz5wqu
Terry
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Paul,
I think he's thinking of the accident at OSH this year as a backup.
Yeah, a bit of overkill, but if it ever did save someone from hitting
something, maybe worth it. And if you mount it on top of the
glareshield, it's kind of like a HUD, ha,ha. And who knows, hook up to
DirectTV and you can watch movies while you fly. Sure is amazing that
they can put something like that out for less than a hundred bucks.
John
80002
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Besing
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
Uhh......I sure hope someone who is taxiing a tailwheel airplane (or
any airplane for that matter) isn't looking at a tv monitor! Maybe this
is a joke?
Paul Besing
do not archive
Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
I saw this under $100 12 volt back-up monitor for cars at Costco
that might work for filling in the blind spot when taxiing a tail wheel
aircraft. The link is to the product at WallMart. I saw it at Costco for
$90 ($89.99 in Costco language). http://tinyurl.com/yz5wqu
Terry
Message 8
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John,
We have the ADI and Pictoral Pilot (AP) installed.
Very pleased with the performance and Trutrak's support.
Chuck & Dave Rowbotham
RV-8A
>From: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: ADI Pilot
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 12:08:25 -0500
>
>I am thinking of replacing my turn coordinator and Digitrak with a TruTrak
>ADI pilot. I love my DigiTrak and have had GREAT service from TruTrak but I
>have not spoken to anyone who has actually installed and used the ADI pilot
>so I am looking for anyone with real experience.
>Thanks
>John Furey
>RV6A
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends
list.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Not a joke at all, I know several airplanes that have forward looking
cameras hooked to a monitor. To bad the TBM at Oshkosh did not have
one!!!!!!
Jerry
do not archive
Paul Besing wrote:
> Uhh......I sure hope someone who is taxiing a tailwheel airplane (or
> any airplane for that matter) isn't looking at a tv monitor! Maybe
> this is a joke?
>
> Paul Besing
> do not archive
>
> Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
>
> I saw this under $100 12 volt back-up monitor for cars at Costco
> that might work for filling in the blind spot when taxiing a tail
> wheel aircraft. The link is to the product at WallMart. I saw it
> at Costco for $90 ($89.99 in Costco language).
> http://tinyurl.com/yz5wqu
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Paul, you surprise me. This caught my attention because of the dead-serious
discussion after the RV-6 and its passenger were chopped up (the passenger
died) at Oshkosh this year by a warbird where the pilot of the warbird was
unaware that the RV-6 was in front of him. There was a discussion of how to
implement a video camera to cover the blind spot. This seemed to me to be a
useful addition to that discussion. I'm sure you will now agree this is a
long ways from an attempt to be funny.
Terry
Uhh......I sure hope someone who is taxiing a tailwheel airplane (or any
airplane for that matter) isn't looking at a tv monitor! Maybe this is a
joke?
Paul Besing
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I hope not. Something like this could have prevented the tragic
accident at OSH this summer.
Dick Tasker
Do not archive
Paul Besing wrote:
> Uhh......I sure hope someone who is taxiing a tailwheel airplane (or
> any airplane for that matter) isn't looking at a tv monitor! Maybe
> this is a joke?
>
> Paul Besing
> do not archive
>
> */Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com>/* wrote:
>
> I saw this under $100 12 volt back-up monitor for cars at Costco
> that might work for filling in the blind spot when taxiing a tail
> wheel aircraft. The link is to the product at WallMart. I saw it
> at Costco for $90 ($89.99 in Costco language).
> *http://tinyurl.com/yz5wqu*
>
> Terry
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
Jeff Point
RV-6 flying
RV-8 tail kit
Milwaukee
do not archive
>
> Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH
> this summer.
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: bell crank bushing ailerons |
I used a piece of split hose to hold the bushing and put the thing in a
vice and hold it. Sprayed inside with some silicone and ran a 1/4"
drill bit through it from a hand held drill a couple of times. Blew it
out with compressed air, shot it with some spray silicone and it has
worked fine. Larry in Indiana
Subject: RV-List: bell crank bushing ailerons
Thanks for all the great advise on my question on the bell crank brass
bushing. I did get the first one that I reamed out with the 1/4" bit on
my drill press to work just fine. I used two plastic blocks in the
drill press vise to hold the bushing so I would not damage the shaft.
Time will tell if I go to a machine shop to do the second bushing or
just use Brad's method on the drill press after drilling and forming my
plastic blocks.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Point well taken Jeff. None the less however, is this point -- I would
like to of been the RV6 that ALMOST got run over at Oshkosh but I got out of
the way of the guy who was following too close because I had the camera
pointed to the rear. Anyone know if a recorder can be hooked up to the
camera.
Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
>
> I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
> keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
> be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
>
> Jeff >>
>> Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH this
>> summer.
>>
>>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
At 03:19 PM 12/1/2006, you wrote:
>
>I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
>keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
>be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
>
>>
>>Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH this
>>summer.
For something like the TBM that apparently has a huge blind spot for planes
like an RV, it seems prudent. You only have to include it in your scan...not
glued to it
Ron Lee
do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it revealed that the Avenger pilot wasn't doing
S-turns that would have given him forward visibility?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=78523#78523
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part of an
overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused on a
camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring at a
forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
same time.
Jerry
do not archive
Jeff Point wrote:
>
> I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
> keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
> be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6 flying
> RV-8 tail kit
> Milwaukee
> do not archive
>
>>
>> Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH
>> this summer.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Bell Crank Brass Bushing |
To ream out the inside of the brass bushings , Insert the
reamer backwards through the bushing , then insert the reamer in the drill
chuck, pull the reamer through the bushing backwards.
I probably shouldn't admit this but I just used a hand drill to ream out the bushing.
And I held it with a pair of pliars after wrapping it with a cloth. I don't
think I got it perfectly centered.. it took a little work to get the bolt
to slip in nicely. And afterwards I cleaned up the outside by running it on the
Scotchbrite Wheel (fine). I'm sure the ways suggested would yield a perfect
result, but I've seen nothing in the operation of the bellcrank as installed
to indicate I've created any sort of problem doing it via the fast method. Of
course, the plane isn't flying yet.
--------
Bob Collins
--
George H. Inman
ghinman@mts.net
Message 19
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| Subject: | Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
.02 cents worth. Slowly taxiing an HRII behind a Cherokee, swing left (1/2
an "S" turn), look right, Cherokee is moving slowly but moving. Ride the
brakes, swinging right, Cherokee still moving & now between turn offs. Taxi
forward, swinging left again. CHEROKEE STOPPED DEAD in middle of taxiway.
Stomp on brakes, land on nose, replace prop & re-build engine. NO SKID
marks, NONE, on wheel pants or spinner, taxiing slowly BUT with a TV camera
would have had a chance to detect that the Cherokee had STOPPED FOR NO
REASON. Been there done that, It could happen to you too. Do Not Archive
KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
>
> I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
> keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
> be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6 flying
> RV-8 tail kit
> Milwaukee
> do not archive
>>
>> Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH this
>> summer.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
A small mirror mounted on the crossbow similar to the ones on WWII P-40's
would also work to "Check Six". Do Not Archive KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
>
> Point well taken Jeff. None the less however, is this point -- I would
> like to of been the RV6 that ALMOST got run over at Oshkosh but I got out
> of the way of the guy who was following too close because I had the camera
> pointed to the rear. Anyone know if a recorder can be hooked up to the
> camera.
>
> Larry in Indiana
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
>> keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
>> be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
>>
>> Jeff >>
>>> Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH this
>>> summer.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like that will suck
you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying to get things tuned, set,
etc while taxiing to the runway.
First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was referring to putting
it in an RV, not something like the aircraft the ran into the RV at oshkosh.
Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing into another
one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground incursions, but this
one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo" might have prevented the accident,
but in more ways than one could cause another one if your attention wasn't divided
properly. I'm in the business of flying aircraft where I have two forms
of vision. FLIR in my right eye and unaided view in my left. I have to divide
my attention all the time between the views. I have hundreds of hours doing
it, and my device follows my head movement and is not a fixed platform. I use
it while taxiing as well as flying. Well, let me tell you this, it is not
easy.
Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a different place
than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a different angle and perspective
than you are looking. If you try to empart that in a scan, your natural
feel, even though you are only taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation.
The untrainted pilot with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted. Maybe
he'll be turning the aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at his
monitor, the perception of his turning won't be great enough (the parallax thing)
so he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he just hit another airplane
or hangar.
Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic items like
this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying for 100 years without
them, and this kind of accident is so very rare, that I wouldn't change a thing
about airplanes to prevent another one.
There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that have this kind
of congestion and chaos going on without some strict aircraft control procedures.
It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that the EAA will implement measures with
their marshalls to prevent it. But I'm sorry, TV cameras in airplanes are NOT
the solution. Better ground collision avoidance training (a hot topic with
the FAA right now anyway) and sharp pilots/ground crew/controllers are the best
way to prevent accidents like these.
No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my lesson about
gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the basics when things don't
go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and get back to being a pilot.
Paul Besing
Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part of an
overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused on a
camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring at a
forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
same time.
Jerry
do not archive
Jeff Point wrote:
>
> I disagree with this and agree with Paul. Having anther cockpit gizmo,
> keeping one's attention inside in the cockpit instead of where it should
> be, will cause more ground mishaps, not fewer.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6 flying
> RV-8 tail kit
> Milwaukee
> do not archive
>
>>
>> Something like this could have prevented the tragic accident at OSH
>> this summer.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 22
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| Subject: | Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Think of it as a "front-view" mirror. You glance at it when you want to see
if anything or anyone is in the blind spot. Just because the technology
behind it is sophisticated doesn't mean it has to be distracting. Don't make
it complicated. And yes, I was thinking about people putting it in their
tailwheel RV's.
But since I am building a nose-wheel airplane I don't have a horse in this
race. Hey, maybe I could use one to .. No, never mind!
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like that will
suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying to get things
tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway.
First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was referring to
putting it in an RV, not something like the aircraft the ran into the RV at
oshkosh.
Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing into
another one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground incursions,
but this one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo" might have prevented the
accident, but in more ways than one could cause another one if your
attention wasn't divided properly. I'm in the business of flying aircraft
where I have two forms of vision. FLIR in my right eye and unaided view in
my left. I have to divide my attention all the time between the views. I
have hundreds of hours doing it, and my device follows my head movement and
is not a fixed platform. I use it while taxiing as well as flying. Well,
let me tell you this, it is not easy.
Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a different
place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a different angle
and perspective than you are looking. If you try to empart that in a scan,
your natural feel, even though you are only taxiing, will be disrupted.
Second is fixation. The untrainted pilot with a "gizmo" like this will be
distracted. Maybe he'll be turning the aircraft between some hangars, and
while looking at his monitor, the perception of his turning won't be great
enough (the parallax thing) so he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he
just hit another airplane or hangar.
Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic items
like this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying for 100 years
without them, and this kind of accident is so very rare, that I wouldn't
change a thing about airplanes to prevent another one.
There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that have this
kind of congestion and chaos going on without some strict aircraft control
procedures. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that the EAA will implement
measures with their marshalls to prevent it. But I'm sorry, TV cameras in
airplanes are NOT the solution. Better ground collision avoidance training
(a hot topic with the FAA right now anyway) and sharp pilots/ground
crew/controllers are the best way to prevent accidents like these.
No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my lesson
about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the basics when things
don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and get back to being a pilot.
Paul Besing
Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part of an
overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused on a
camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring at a
forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
same time.
Jerry
do not archive
Jeff Point wrote:
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I agree with most of what you say Paul, nothing better than eyeballs and
swivel neck to see and pay attention to what is going on around you.
as a CFI myself I try to teach the be aware of the whole situation
scenario. On the other hand as you mentioned airplanes have been flying
for years without the "gizmos," I was one of the guys that said
Loran/GPS were not necessary because I knew how to plot and fly a course
without one. Now that I have used a Loran and then GPS's I would not
leave home with out them because they make the work load so much easier
to handle.:-)
I just believe a simple system to see the blind spots would be
beneficial. Maybe some type of proximity sensor with a warning sound
would work as well.
Jerry
do not archive
Paul Besing wrote:
> Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like that
> will suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying to get
> things tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway.
>
> First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was referring to
> putting it in an RV, not something like the aircraft the ran into the RV
> at oshkosh.
>
> Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing into
> another one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground
> incursions, but this one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo" might
> have prevented the accident, but in more ways than one could cause
> another one if your attention wasn't divided properly. I'm in the
> business of flying aircraft where I have two forms of vision. FLIR in
> my right eye and unaided view in my left. I have to divide my attention
> all the time between the views. I have hundreds of hours doing it, and
> my device follows my head movement and is not a fixed platform. I use
> it while taxiing as well as flying. Well, let me tell you this, it is
> not easy.
>
> Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a
> different place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a
> different angle and perspective than you are looking. If you try to
> empart that in a scan, your natural feel, even though you are only
> taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation. The untrainted pilot
> with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted. Maybe he'll be turning the
> aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at his monitor, the
> perception of his turning won't be great enough (the parallax thing) so
> he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he just hit another airplane or
> hangar.
>
> Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic
> items like this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying for
> 100 years without them, and this kind of accident is so very rare, that
> I wouldn't change a thing about airplanes to prevent another one.
>
> There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that have
> this kind of congestion and chaos going on without some strict aircraft
> control procedures. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that the EAA will
> implement measures with their marshalls to prevent it. But I'm sorry,
> TV cameras in airplanes are NOT the solution. Better ground collision
> avoidance training (a hot topic with the FAA right now anyway) and sharp
> pilots/ground crew/controllers are the best way to prevent accidents
> like these.
>
> No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my
> lesson about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the basics
> when things don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and get back to
> being a pilot.
>
> Paul Besing
>
>
> Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part of an
> overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
> cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused
> on a
> camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring
> at a
> forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
> really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
> same time.
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
>
>
> Jeff Point wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | SA tube bending article |
A year or two ago there was a nice article in Sport Aviation on how to
properly use a lever-type tubing bender. Anyone know which issue this was
in or would possibly have a pdf copy?
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
On 16:43 2006-12-01 Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
> I just believe a simple system to see the blind spots would be
> beneficial. Maybe some type of proximity sensor with a warning sound
> would work as well.
What's wrong with S-turning on the taxiway in the first place? Unless the
taxiway is so narrow that your wheels are each running on their respective
edges of the pavement, there's always room to S-turn. And in an RV, even
an RV with a steerable tailwheel, it's soooo easy to do.
-Rob
Message 26
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| Subject: | Chase needed for 1st flight of RV-8 at FTG this Sunday |
Hello everyone,
I'm finally ready to fly my RV-8 from Front Range Airport on the next very low
wind/good weather day. That day could be this coming Sunday if the forecast is
correct and the light flurries forecast for Saturday turn out to be just that
and the runways are dry Sunday.
My current plan for the first flight is to fly three or so closed traffic patterns
over the airport and if all engine indications, control responses, ... are
acceptable, fly east to the closest emergency landing airport available that
will allow a high enough altitude to comfortably perform some slow flight with
flaps and perform airspeed indicator/installation error validation at approach
speed before the return to landing at FTG. Ideally I'd have someone flying chase
for the departure from the airport portion on this flight to visually inspect
for any leaking fluids and to give a quick comparison of our airspeed indicators
at approach speed.
Anyone on the list available/willing to perform this?
I'd feel comfortable validating the airspeed indications using just the GPS ground
speed in the pattern if I know the wind is very low but the chase with a little
slow flight would be my first choice.
Please let me know off list.
Thanks,
Greg Puckett
N881GP
p.s. I can't say enough about how worthwhile the transition training I experienced
with Mike Seager this week was. It was worth every penny and then some.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Fine, everybody S turn. :-) Close to 20 years I have been flying with
RV's, I see very few of them do S turns.
Also trying to be as understanding as possible here I don't understand
how someone can let a large aircraft get so close behind them
as to chew up their aircraft but as we know it happens.
Jerry
do not arhcive
Rob Prior wrote:
>
>On 16:43 2006-12-01 Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I just believe a simple system to see the blind spots would be
>>beneficial. Maybe some type of proximity sensor with a warning sound
>>would work as well.
>>
>>
>
>What's wrong with S-turning on the taxiway in the first place? Unless the
>taxiway is so narrow that your wheels are each running on their respective
>edges of the pavement, there's always room to S-turn. And in an RV, even
>an RV with a steerable tailwheel, it's soooo easy to do.
>
>-Rob
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV. The visibility is pretty
darn good in any tailwheel RV. The blind spot is very small actually. Unlike
alot of tailwheel airplanes, you can almsot see over the nose on a tailwheel
RV.
Paul Besing
Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Think of it as a front-view
mirror. You glance at it when you want to see if anything or anyone is
in the blind spot. Just because the technology behind it is sophisticated doesnt
mean it has to be distracting. Dont make it complicated. And yes, I was thinking
about people putting it in their tailwheel RVs.
But since I am building a nose-wheel airplane I dont have a horse in this race.
Hey, maybe I could use one to . No, never mind!
Terry
---------------------------------
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like that will
suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying to get things tuned,
set, etc while taxiing to the runway.
First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was referring to putting
it in an RV, not something like the aircraft the ran into the RV at oshkosh.
Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing into another
one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground incursions, but this
one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo" might have prevented the accident,
but in more ways than one could cause another one if your attention wasn't
divided properly. I'm in the business of flying aircraft where I have two forms
of vision. FLIR in my right eye and unaided view in my left. I have to divide
my attention all the time between the views. I have hundreds of hours doing
it, and my device follows my head movement and is not a fixed platform. I
use it while taxiing as well as flying. Well, let me tell you this, it is not
easy.
Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a different
place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a different angle and
perspective than you are looking. If you try to empart that in a scan, your natural
feel, even though you are only taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation.
The untrainted pilot with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted. Maybe
he'll be turning the aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at
his monitor, the perception of his turning won't be great enough (the parallax
thing) so he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he just hit another airplane
or hangar.
Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic items like
this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying for 100 years without
them, and this kind of accident is so very rare, that I wouldn't change a
thing about airplanes to prevent another one.
There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that have this kind
of congestion and chaos going on without some strict aircraft control procedures.
It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that the EAA will implement measures with
their marshalls to prevent it. But I'm sorry, TV cameras in airplanes are
NOT the solution. Better ground collision avoidance training (a hot topic with
the FAA right now anyway) and sharp pilots/ground crew/controllers are the
best way to prevent accidents like these.
No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my lesson
about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the basics when things don't
go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and get back to being a pilot.
Paul Besing
Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part of an
overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused on a
camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring at a
forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
same time.
Jerry
do not archive
Jeff Point wrote:
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.kitlog.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
---------------------------------
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Chase needed for 1st flight of RV-8 at FTG this Sunday |
On 1 Dec 2006, at 20:41, Puckett, Gregory [DENTK] wrote:
> <Greg.Puckett@united.com>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm finally ready to fly my RV-8 from Front Range Airport on the
> next very low wind/good weather day. That day could be this coming
> Sunday if the forecast is correct and the light flurries forecast
> for Saturday turn out to be just that and the runways are dry Sunday.
>
> My current plan for the first flight is to fly three or so closed
> traffic patterns over the airport and if all engine indications,
> control responses, ... are acceptable, fly east to the closest
> emergency landing airport available that will allow a high enough
> altitude to comfortably perform some slow flight with flaps and
> perform airspeed indicator/installation error validation at
> approach speed before the return to landing at FTG. Ideally I'd
> have someone flying chase for the departure from the airport
> portion on this flight to visually inspect for any leaking fluids
> and to give a quick comparison of our airspeed indicators at
> approach speed.
>
> Anyone on the list available/willing to perform this?
>
> I'd feel comfortable validating the airspeed indications using just
> the GPS ground speed in the pattern if I know the wind is very low
> but the chase with a little slow flight would be my first choice.
Be careful out there. There is nothing wrong with a chase aircraft,
if both pilots are experienced formation pilots, and the chase pilot
fully understands his duties, and how to be sure he is always in a
safe place. But, if you are missing one of those things having a
chase aircraft may increase the risk of an accident. Mid air
collisions are bad news.
I'm not sure what you believe you are gaining by having chase check
your airspeed. Are you worried about being closer to the stall than
you think you are? Knowing how accurate your airspeed is only helps
you if you also know what your stall speed is. But, if you do a slow
flight exercise at a known IAS, add a suitable margin for your
approach speed, do a simulated approach and flare at altitude, then
you have covered off the airspeed accuracy issue. Also, how do you
know your chase aircraft has an accurate airspeed indication. I'll
bet you there are a bunch of RVs flying with 10 kt airspeed errors,
and the pilots don't know it.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I agree. I might be able to buy the argument for a camera, but not
in an RV. I can't imagine another airplane that I couldn't see from
inside my RV-7.
Phil
On Dec 1, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Paul Besing wrote:
> Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV. The
> visibility is pretty darn good in any tailwheel RV. The blind spot
> is very small actually. Unlike alot of tailwheel airplanes, you
> can almsot see over the nose on a tailwheel RV.
>
> Paul Besing
>
> Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
> Think of it as a =93front-view=94 mirror. You glance at it when you
> want to see if anything or anyone is in the blind spot. Just
> because the technology behind it is sophisticated doesn=92t mean it
> has to be distracting. Don=92t make it complicated. And yes, I was
> thinking about people putting it in their tailwheel RV=92s.
>
> But since I am building a nose-wheel airplane I don=92t have a horse
> in this race. Hey, maybe I could use one to =85. No, never mind!
>
> Terry
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:55 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
>
> Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like
> that will suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people
> trying to get things tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway.
>
> First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was
> referring to putting it in an RV, not something like the aircraft
> the ran into the RV at oshkosh.
>
> Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing
> into another one like the accident this year? Yes, there are
> ground incursions, but this one was extremely rare. Yes, this
> "gizmo" might have prevented the accident, but in more ways than
> one could cause another one if your attention wasn't divided
> properly. I'm in the business of flying aircraft where I have two
> forms of vision. FLIR in my right eye and unaided view in my
> left. I have to divide my attention all the time between the
> views. I have hundreds of hours doing it, and my device follows my
> head movement and is not a fixed platform. I use it while taxiing
> as well as flying. Well, let me tell you this, it is not easy.
>
> Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a
> different place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a
> different angle and perspective than you are looking. If you try
> to empart that in a scan, your natural feel, even though you are
> only taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation. The
> untrainted pilot with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted.
> Maybe he'll be turning the aircraft between some hangars, and while
> looking at his monitor, the perception of his turning won't be
> great enough (the parallax thing) so he turns more. Looks outside
> and bang, he just hit another airplane or hangar.
>
> Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic
> items like this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying
> for 100 years without them, and this kind of accident is so very
> rare, that I wouldn't change a thing about airplanes to prevent
> another one.
>
> There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that
> have this kind of congestion and chaos going on without some strict
> aircraft control procedures. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that
> the EAA will implement measures with their marshalls to prevent
> it. But I'm sorry, TV cameras in airplanes are NOT the solution.
> Better ground collision avoidance training (a hot topic with the
> FAA right now anyway) and sharp pilots/ground crew/controllers are
> the best way to prevent accidents like these.
>
> No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my
> lesson about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the
> basics when things don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and
> get back to being a pilot.
>
> Paul Besing
>
>
> Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part
> of an
> overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
> cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused
> on a
> camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring
> at a
> forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
> really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
> same time.
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
>
> Jeff Point wrote:
>
>
>
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.kitlog.com
Annual
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
Don't forget to install auto-land while you're at it.
do NOT archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
>
>
> I agree with most of what you say Paul, nothing better than eyeballs and
> swivel neck to see and pay attention to what is going on around you.
> as a CFI myself I try to teach the be aware of the whole situation
> scenario. On the other hand as you mentioned airplanes have been flying
> for years without the "gizmos," I was one of the guys that said Loran/GPS
> were not necessary because I knew how to plot and fly a course without
> one. Now that I have used a Loran and then GPS's I would not leave home
> with out them because they make the work load so much easier to handle.:-)
> I just believe a simple system to see the blind spots would be beneficial.
> Maybe some type of proximity sensor with a warning sound would work as
> well.
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
> Paul Besing wrote:
>
>> Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like that
>> will suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying to get
>> things tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway. First of all, this
>> being the RV-List, I was thinking he was referring to putting it in an
>> RV, not something like the aircraft the ran into the RV at oshkosh.
>> Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing into
>> another one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground
>> incursions, but this one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo" might
>> have prevented the accident, but in more ways than one could cause
>> another one if your attention wasn't divided properly. I'm in the
>> business of flying aircraft where I have two forms of vision. FLIR in my
>> right eye and unaided view in my left. I have to divide my attention all
>> the time between the views. I have hundreds of hours doing it, and my
>> device follows my head movement and is not a fixed platform. I use it
>> while taxiing as well as flying. Well, let me tell you this, it is not
>> easy. Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a
>> different place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a
>> different angle and perspective than you are looking. If you try to
>> empart that in a scan, your natural feel, even though you are only
>> taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation. The untrainted pilot
>> with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted. Maybe he'll be turning the
>> aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at his monitor, the
>> perception of his turning won't be great enough (the parallax thing) so
>> he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he just hit another airplane or
>> hangar.
>> Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic
>> items like this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying for
>> 100 years without them, and this kind of accident is so very rare, that I
>> wouldn't change a thing about airplanes to prevent another one. There are
>> few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that have this kind of
>> congestion and chaos going on without some strict aircraft control
>> procedures. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that the EAA will implement
>> measures with their marshalls to prevent it. But I'm sorry, TV cameras
>> in airplanes are NOT the solution. Better ground collision avoidance
>> training (a hot topic with the FAA right now anyway) and sharp
>> pilots/ground crew/controllers are the best way to prevent accidents like
>> these.
>> No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my
>> lesson about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the basics
>> when things don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and get back to
>> being a pilot.
>> Paul Besing
>>
>>
>> Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is part of
>> an
>> overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
>> cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be focused
>> on a
>> camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was staring
>> at a
>> forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It would
>> really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back at the
>> same time.
>>
>> Jerry
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff Point wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I just installed one on my pick up. If I had spent the $98 a month ago it
would have saved me more that that. The small blind spot behind the truck
counseled a small car. The hole that I punched in the small cars front
bumper with the trailer hitch, when I backed up cost me $765. The monitor
is mounted eye level with the left rear view mirror and is part of my scan
when I back up now. Having a camera looking into a blind spot no matter how
small could save more than a few dollars. I see no problem with having
someway of checking directly in front of the plane just before taxing.
There might be a tie down rope laying there that you forgot about, sucking
that into the prop might give you a bad day.
Bob Perkinson
Hendersonville, TN.
RV9 N658RP Reserved
If nothing changes
Nothing changes
I agree. I might be able to buy the argument for a camera, but not in an
RV. I can't imagine another airplane that I couldn't see from inside my
RV-7.
Phil
On Dec 1, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Paul Besing wrote:
Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV. The visibility is
pretty darn good in any tailwheel RV. The blind spot is very small
actually. Unlike alot of tailwheel airplanes, you can almsot see over the
nose on a tailwheel RV.
Paul Besing
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
I am 6'3" and almost hit the canopy, and there is still a lot of blind
spot in front of a RV-6. Look no one is saying you have to have one I
just don't see a problem with it and I do not believe that adding it to
a scan would be a problem I don't have one and probably never well but
it could save someones bacon sometime.
Paul Besing wrote:
> Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV. The visibility is
> pretty darn good in any tailwheel RV. The blind spot is very small
> actually. Unlike alot of tailwheel airplanes, you can almsot see over
> the nose on a tailwheel RV.
>
> Paul Besing
>
> Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
>
> Think of it as a front-view mirror. You glance at it when you want
> to see if anything or anyone is in the blind spot. Just because the
> technology behind it is sophisticated doesnt mean it has to be
> distracting. Dont make it complicated. And yes, I was thinking
> about people putting it in their tailwheel RVs.
>
> But since I am building a nose-wheel airplane I dont have a horse
> in this race. Hey, maybe I could use one to . No, never mind!
>
> Terry
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:55 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
>
> Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like
> that will suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying
> to get things tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway.
>
> First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was
> referring to putting it in an RV, not something like the aircraft
> the ran into the RV at oshkosh.
>
> Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing
> into another one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground
> incursions, but this one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo"
> might have prevented the accident, but in more ways than one could
> cause another one if your attention wasn't divided properly. I'm in
> the business of flying aircraft where I have two forms of vision.
> FLIR in my right eye and unaided view in my left. I have to divide
> my attention all the time between the views. I have hundreds of
> hours doing it, and my device follows my head movement and is not a
> fixed platform. I use it while taxiing as well as flying. Well,
> let me tell you this, it is not easy.
>
> Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a
> different place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a
> different angle and perspective than you are looking. If you try to
> empart that in a scan, your natural feel, even though you are only
> taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation. The untrainted
> pilot with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted. Maybe he'll be
> turning the aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at his
> monitor, the perception of his turning won't be great enough (the
> parallax thing) so he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he just
> hit another airplane or hangar.
>
> Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non realistic
> items like this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been flying
> for 100 years without them, and this kind of accident is so very
> rare, that I wouldn't change a thing about airplanes to prevent
> another one.
>
> There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that have
> this kind of congestion and chaos going on without some strict
> aircraft control procedures. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that
> the EAA will implement measures with their marshalls to prevent it.
> But I'm sorry, TV cameras in airplanes are NOT the solution. Better
> ground collision avoidance training (a hot topic with the FAA right
> now anyway) and sharp pilots/ground crew/controllers are the best
> way to prevent accidents like these.
>
> No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned my
> lesson about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the
> basics when things don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and
> get back to being a pilot.
>
> Paul Besing
>
>
> Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is
> part of an
> overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside the
> cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be
> focused on a
> camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was
> staring at a
> forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It
> would
> really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back
> at the
> same time.
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
>
>
> Jeff Point wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> www.aeroelectric.com
>
> www.kitlog.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots |
That's what we "thought" too....until the motionless Cherokee. BUT then
again our's is only an RV "derivative". I would think that the view out
the left side of a -7 would be pretty close to the HRII but lacking
looking out the right side during an "S" turn. KABONG Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Birkelbach
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
I agree. I might be able to buy the argument for a camera, but not in
an RV. I can't imagine another airplane that I couldn't see from inside
my RV-7.
Phil
On Dec 1, 2006, at 7:57 PM, Paul Besing wrote:
Sorry, but I just can't see it...especially in an RV. The
visibility is pretty darn good in any tailwheel RV. The blind spot is
very small actually. Unlike alot of tailwheel airplanes, you can almsot
see over the nose on a tailwheel RV.
Paul Besing
Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
Think of it as a =93front-view=94 mirror. You glance at it when
you want to see if anything or anyone is in the blind spot. Just because
the technology behind it is sophisticated doesn=92t mean it has to be
distracting. Don=92t make it complicated. And yes, I was thinking about
people putting it in their tailwheel RV=92s.
But since I am building a nose-wheel airplane I don=92t have a
horse in this race. Hey, maybe I could use one to =85. No, never mind!
Terry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Besing
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:55 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Forward vision for tail wheel pilots
Jerry, you are absolutely right about the GPS thing...stuff like
that will suck you in, and I've seen it as a CFII with people trying to
get things tuned, set, etc while taxiing to the runway.
First of all, this being the RV-List, I was thinking he was
referring to putting it in an RV, not something like the aircraft the
ran into the RV at oshkosh.
Second, how many times have you heard of a large airplane taxiing
into another one like the accident this year? Yes, there are ground
incursions, but this one was extremely rare. Yes, this "gizmo" might
have prevented the accident, but in more ways than one could cause
another one if your attention wasn't divided properly. I'm in the
business of flying aircraft where I have two forms of vision. FLIR in
my right eye and unaided view in my left. I have to divide my attention
all the time between the views. I have hundreds of hours doing it, and
my device follows my head movement and is not a fixed platform. I use
it while taxiing as well as flying. Well, let me tell you this, it is
not easy.
Two problems here. One is parallax. The camera is mounted at a
different place than where you are sitting. What it sees is from a
different angle and perspective than you are looking. If you try to
empart that in a scan, your natural feel, even though you are only
taxiing, will be disrupted. Second is fixation. The untrainted pilot
with a "gizmo" like this will be distracted. Maybe he'll be turning the
aircraft between some hangars, and while looking at his monitor, the
perception of his turning won't be great enough (the parallax thing) so
he turns more. Looks outside and bang, he just hit another airplane or
hangar.
Nevertheless, you can't fix one accident by employing non
realistic items like this, that could cause more. Airplanes have been
flying for 100 years without them, and this kind of accident is so very
rare, that I wouldn't change a thing about airplanes to prevent another
one.
There are few fly ins each year. There are fewer airports that
have this kind of congestion and chaos going on without some strict
aircraft control procedures. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure that the
EAA will implement measures with their marshalls to prevent it. But I'm
sorry, TV cameras in airplanes are NOT the solution. Better ground
collision avoidance training (a hot topic with the FAA right now anyway)
and sharp pilots/ground crew/controllers are the best way to prevent
accidents like these.
No more stuff needed in the cockpit I say. I've already learned
my lesson about gadgets, I tell you. I always revert back to the basics
when things don't go as planned, and ignore the gadgets and get back to
being a pilot.
Paul Besing
Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
Not true, you don't set there and stare at the "gizmo" it is
part of an
overall scan. I bet there is much more attention given inside
the
cockpit tuning and adjusting radios and GPS's than would be
focused on a
camera/monitor. I would much rather the plane behind me was
staring at a
forward looking camera/monitor than at the GPS or a map etc. It
would
really be nice to have a split screen looking forward and back
at the
same time.
Jerry
do not archive
Jeff Point wrote:
www.aeroelectric.comwww.kitlog.com -- Please Support Your Lists
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE November is the Annual List Fund
Raiser. Click class="Apple-converted-space"> the Contribution link
below to this year's Terrific class="Apple-converted-space"> *
AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com * The Builder's Bookstore
www.buildersbooks.com * Aeroware Enterprises www.kitlog.com *
HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com -->
http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous
class="Apple-converted-space"> -
The RV-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
Message 35
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| Subject: | Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
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************************************************************
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************************************************************
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****************************************
Recent messages posted to the RV-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Official RV-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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