Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:10 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (RAS)
2. 02:12 AM - Re: wigwag switch (Bill Settle)
3. 04:04 AM - Re: wigwag switch (Bob J.)
4. 04:44 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Mark Sletten)
5. 05:43 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
6. 05:55 AM - Transition training (Bob Collins)
7. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen)
8. 06:38 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
9. 06:41 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (N395V)
10. 06:42 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Brian Meyette)
11. 06:59 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Jim Sears)
12. 07:12 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Lawson, Michael)
13. 07:20 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
14. 07:26 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
15. 07:28 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
16. 07:32 AM - Re: Transition training (John Furey)
17. 08:22 AM - Transition training (Hedrick)
18. 09:05 AM - Re: Transition training (bertrv6@highstream.net)
19. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Joseph Larson)
20. 09:27 AM - Re: Transition training (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
21. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (linn Walters)
22. 09:55 AM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
23. 10:27 AM - Why is it such a bad thing (N395V)
24. 10:42 AM - Re: Learning Basic Aileron in RV (HOW TO DO LOOPS) ()
25. 11:02 AM - Re: Landing an RV-9 sans flaps ... (Mike Robertson)
26. 11:10 AM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
27. 12:04 PM - Re: Landing an RV-9 sans flaps ... (James H Nelson)
28. 12:10 PM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (RV6 Flyer)
29. 12:37 PM - RV blast from the past story (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
30. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
31. 01:20 PM - Weekend (Steve Glasgow)
32. 01:43 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
33. 01:43 PM - Fuel Pressure Problems (Steve Glasgow)
34. 02:25 PM - Re: Weekend (Bill Boyd)
35. 02:36 PM - Re: Transition training (LarryRobertHelming)
36. 03:00 PM - Re: Fuel Pressure Problems (Kevin Horton)
37. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Terry Watson)
38. 03:12 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Joseph Larson)
39. 03:13 PM - RV9a pushrod to aileron question (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
40. 03:19 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
41. 03:38 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
42. 04:07 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
43. 04:15 PM - Re: RV9a pushrod to aileron question (Gerry Filby)
44. 04:38 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
45. 04:55 PM - RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun (Randy Hooper)
46. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
47. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Tim Bryan)
48. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
49. 05:24 PM - how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (Bill Boyd)
50. 05:31 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
51. 06:04 PM - Re: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun FYI (eddyfernan@aol.com)
52. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
53. 06:11 PM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Tracy Crook)
54. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Joseph Larson)
55. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
56. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
57. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
58. 06:23 PM - Re: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun (Tracy Crook)
59. 06:30 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
60. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
61. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
62. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
63. 07:15 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Dan)
64. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
65. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
66. 08:20 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (N395V)
67. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
68. 08:35 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (Steve Allison)
69. 08:42 PM - Non -RV heroes (Sherman Butler)
70. 08:45 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
71. 10:27 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 01/16/07 (EMAproducts@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
BlankHi Larry & All,
where's the reference for this accident on the FAA database? I'm not
familiar with this accident and would like to read the NTSB narrative
about it, even though it doesn't bother me personally as I'm across the
pond.
Just like to get an idea of what the problem is, where and how these
enermous claims arise from.
It's something that we do start to get in the UK/Eire as well, abulance
chasing, advertising on t.v for claims to be made after accident etc.
M
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: wigwag switch |
RocketBob,
Do you have a link to this switch? I tried going to Carling's site but could not
pull up that number.
Thanks,
Bill Settle.
Winston-Salem, NC
-8 Wings
>
> From: "Bob J." <rocketbob@gmail.com>
> Date: 2007/01/16 Tue PM 09:54:53 EST
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: wigwag switch
>
> For those of you looking to to wire your landing lights through one switch
> and also have a wigwag position, like the 4TL1-10 shown in Electric Bob's
> wigwag diagram but not ridiculously expensive and simpler to wire up, I have
> found a switch that is perfect. It is made by Carling and the part number
> is 2GP51-73. No distributors seem to carry this switch as an in-stock item,
> but if someone like Steinair (Stein are you listening) could order/stock it,
> it would be a simpler and better solution than any of the diagrams in
> Electric Bob's wigwag diagram. The switch is a DP3T toggle, OFF-ON-ON so
> you can wire it to be OFF-WIGWAG-ON for both landing lights yet still keep
> both lights in separate circuits/fuses when they're not "wagging". I have
> obtained an engineering sample of this switch from Carling and verified that
> it will do the job.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: wigwag switch |
http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/s_g.pdf
On 1/17/07, Bill Settle <billsettle@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> RocketBob,
>
> Do you have a link to this switch? I tried going to Carling's site but
> could not pull up that number.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill Settle.
> Winston-Salem, NC
> -8 Wings
> >
> > From: "Bob J." <rocketbob@gmail.com>
> > Date: 2007/01/16 Tue PM 09:54:53 EST
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: wigwag switch
> >
> > For those of you looking to to wire your landing lights through one
> switch
> > and also have a wigwag position, like the 4TL1-10 shown in Electric
> Bob's
> > wigwag diagram but not ridiculously expensive and simpler to wire up, I
> have
> > found a switch that is perfect. It is made by Carling and the part
> number
> > is 2GP51-73. No distributors seem to carry this switch as an in-stock
> item,
> > but if someone like Steinair (Stein are you listening) could order/stock
> it,
> > it would be a simpler and better solution than any of the diagrams in
> > Electric Bob's wigwag diagram. The switch is a DP3T toggle, OFF-ON-ON
> so
> > you can wire it to be OFF-WIGWAG-ON for both landing lights yet still
> keep
> > both lights in separate circuits/fuses when they're not "wagging". I
> have
> > obtained an engineering sample of this switch from Carling and verified
> that
> > it will do the job.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bob Japundza
> > RV-6 flying F1 under const.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
Here is the relevant passage from the NTSB report:
"Within a minute after the aircraft impacted the ground, the volunteer fire
truck arrived at the scene. After pulling out the necessary hose and
completing the hook-up of their respirator system, which they began while en
route, the firefighters applied water on the flaming wreckage. Within a
minute to a minute and a half after their arrival, the fire was
extinguished."
The report seems to indicate the fire was out within two to two-and-a-half
minutes of the crash, but the report is based on witness accounts. The
jury's verdict is also based on witness accounts - I'm sure none were
actually at the scene of the crash. If the jury heard different witnesses,
the version of the story they considered during their deliberations may have
been much different.
Was the NTSB report even admitted into evidence? What should be considered a
"normal" or "appropriate" emergency response time for an accident such as
this? Should that response time be different because of the air show? Why?
As some have said, without having been at the trial and heard what the jury
heard you can't know what you're criticizing.
Mark Sletten
9840 Beacon Street
Saint Jacob, IL 62281
(618) 644-2524 - Home
(618) 791-3939 - Mobile
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
rtitsworth wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I totally agree with you.
>
> Hopefully, my local airport and others take heed to the logic inferred by
> your statement/opinion that the EAA has a responsibly to provide "proper"
> service to GA pilots who crash as no direct result of the airport (or EAA,
> or whoever) - especially with respect to "proper" being defined by an
> arms-length jury thinking that it is the airport's (or EAA, or whoever has
> $) responsibility to save pilots from crashes, even if he/she was in the
> perfect position to avoid it in the first place, or worst yet, caused it.
>
If the jury award really was inappropriate, why also the need to make up what the
jury award was about? It wasn't about what caused a plane to crash.
I suggest -- and I have before -- that we -- you -- read the court records and
learn what the case is about, what evidence was put into place, and what each
side presented as its case and then consider it from a position of knowledge.
I simply don't have that data and neither, apparently, does anyone else here.
Until that data is provided, it's all just speculaytive caterwalling of no particular
usefulness int he construction of an RV. If the jury
s decision really is as outrageous as folks think it is -- and it might be --
then the week or two it'll take to research it won't take away the need for a
lynch mob.
Like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers out there who would assist in
obtaining the relevant information.
If folks really wanted it.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88254#88254
Message 6
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| Subject: | Transition training |
I've wanted to write a piece for the RV Builder's Hotline (and some other pubs)
about transition training for some time, but I've never had much luck getting
some of the main "players" to get back to me. So I've been sending out some questionairres
to RV jockeys who've had transition training.
If you've taken transition trianing classes or programs, and would be interested
in answering about five e-mailed quesitions, could you please send me a note
at rvnewsletter (at) comcast.net?
Also, if you provide transition training and would like to be listed at the end
of the article, similarly let me know.
Thanks
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88257#88257
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
Bob Collins wrote...
The EAA's responsibility for that was right up until the moment when
there was no other expectation of an outcome other than the pilot's
death.
That's why I want to know if the pilot could've survived his crash.
*****
Not to split too many fine legal hairs, but even if the autopsy showed
that he would have eventually died of his injuries, fire or no, does not
preclude monetary damages if the fire company was negligent or whatever
the jury finding was in this case. Even if he would have died anyhow,
but the immediate cause of death was by fire, something I'd rather not
dwell on or contemplate, then the claim in based on the unusual, cruel
and horrendous means of death. Yes, he would have died any (assuming
that was the case), but the means of death was unnecessarily horrific
due to the negligence of others. After all, we all are going to
die--that's not in doubt (except for the belief of a few individuals,
but there are medications and medical facilities for those people), but
we have a right to die a natural, peaceful deather unless others
unrightfully cause it to be otherwise, in which case, there may be a
cause for legal action.
My personal opinion; we should wait to find out and know all the facts
the jury considered....but in the mean time, it'd be okay to hang a few
personal injury lawyers since little harm can come from it--unless I
need one!
Chuck
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote:
>
> My personal opinion; we should wait to find out and know all the facts
> the jury considered...
I've asked our research director to poke around today and see if she can find a
little more than what was printed in the local rags (which wasn't all that informative,
imho).
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88266#88266
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
I believe that there are really 2 issues here.
The 1st is personified by.....
> if the pilot survived the crash but died as a result of that emergency service
not being provided, then there's a basis of culpability.
This is the argument that our current legal system agrees with and as such allows
judgements like the one in question.
The 2nd is personified by........................................
> How our court system determined that someone should pay for this series of pilot
errors is beyond me.
This line of reasoning is held by many, including myself, and is really a philosophic
or political argument. Common sense would suggest that the crash was in
no way the fault of the eaa or fire department.
Unfortunately our current legal system does not recognize common sense.
The result is many, me included, feel that.................................
> We should go lynch the family and heirs and attorneys that will now profit
In reality we are all the problem. We have allowed our elected representatives
and through them the appointed judiciary to put in place a legal system that
does not recognize personal responsability or common sense.
This is no different than the government re distributing wealth through taxation
and seemingly ridiculous spending programs.
This will continue until we as a society get so fed up that we make a drastic change
at the polls. I am not encouraged that this will ever happen givn the almost
50/50 result of most recent elections.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88269#88269
Message 10
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| Subject: | pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
One more angle to consider - never underestimate the stupidity of jurors -
after all, even the worst of shark lawyers (in both civil and criminal
cases) can't do their dirty deeds without idiotic juries going along with
the outrageous claims.
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of bill shook
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
There must be something in there that we are missing. Sure, lawyers are
scum and
lawsuits can be bogus but I have to think that $10.5M is not awarded unless
someone did
something pretty bad. I don't know the details of this suit, but that kind
of money is
not just handed out. Taking responsibility for a fly-in is taking the world
on your
shoulders...I sure hope they are not doing so with nothing but volunteers
making safety
decisions. If they are...well, they are risking everyone who attends. Lets
hope therec
is more foresight than that at work. All the good intentions in the world
are no
substitute for a professional in charge who understands safety. I nominate
Charlie
Kuss.
Still..we could just hang all the lawyers.
Bill
-4 wings
--- "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com> wrote:
> I'll start an interesting and likely charged thread. A court here in
> Washington State has awarded the family of Don Corbitt a settlement of
> $10.5M; from the EAA and Northwest EAA.
>
> First, what happened to personal responsibility ?? If this pilot had not
> crashed in the first place, this would not be an issue.
> Second, how is this not the sole fault of the pilot ?? The pilot could
have
> (and we can now argue "should have") installed an on-board fire
suppression
> system; again eliminating the issue. Or the pilot could have (should
have)
> been a better pilot; again, elimination the issue.
> Third, the rest of the story: this pilot took off having left the
passenger
> seat-belt buckled around the control stick. That's right, this pilot
messed
> up pretty big. It is common and good practice to secure an aircraft's
> control surfaces while parked and one easy way to do this is to hold the
> control stick full aft with a seat belt. It is also common and good
> practice (mandatory) to pre-flight the aircraft before flying. It is also
> common and good practice (mandatory) to perform a control check (all
flight
> controls full and correct movement) before launching. Obviously these two
> items were not done and the pilot paid heavily for his error. This is
also
> the nature of flying; it is relatively safe, however mistakes can add up
and
> have rather large consequences ........ and the person responsible is the
> PIC.
>
> How our court system determined that someone should pay for this series of
> pilot errors is beyond me. And the family that instigated and maintained
> this suit is a disgrace. And it is now they that will be rewarded for
this
> pilot's mistakes. This is sick.
>
> If this guy didn't crash in the first place there wouldn't be an issue. Or
> if he had installed a built-in-fire-suppression system we wouldn't be
> talking about it either. Why is it always someone else's fault ?? We
should
> go lynch the family and heirs and attorneys that will now profit from
their
> husband / father / son / client's death. What a bunch of crap. Oh, did I
> mention that I have an opinion on this ????
>
> Larry E. James
> Pacific Northwest
>
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List</a>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
</b></font></pre>
--
8:25 AM
--
4:36 PM
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
>> One more angle to consider - never underestimate the stupidity of
>> jurors - after all, even the worst of shark lawyers (in both civil and
>> criminal cases) can't do their dirty deeds without idiotic juries going
>> along with the outrageous claims. <<
Unfortunately, those same jurers have no idea that their judgements can
result in lost jobs for those who work for the companies being sued. Sure,
insurance may cover most; but, there are times when the legal costs in such
cases put bussinesses out of business. Of course, the jurors who gave the
large judgement have no idea that a jury in another part of the country may
well be sitting in on a trial that could end jobs in this jury's
neighborhood. That stupidity runs nationwide.
Jim in KY
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
The thing that gets me mad at these settlements is the outrageous size
of the awards. Why do juries never seem to award something "reasonable"
like $100,000? It always has to be in the multi-millions. Does EAA
even collect $10M in a year? (My bets are that EAA had $10M insurance
on the event, and the local chapter had $500k in insurance, but that's
only wild speculation.) Wherever there's money, the lawyers come. Why
do juries not know that they (juries) are destroying the freedoms of
this country?
Mike Lawson
RV-8A 81825
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
[quote="jmsears(at)adelphia.net"]
>
>
> Unfortunately, those same jurers have no idea that their judgements can
> result in lost jobs for those who work for the companies being sued. Sure,
> insurance may cover most; but, there are times when the legal costs in such
> cases put bussinesses out of business. Of course, the jurors who gave the
> large judgement have no idea that a jury in another part of the country may
> well be sitting in on a trial that could end jobs in this jury's
> neighborhood. That stupidity runs nationwide.
>
This my problem with the thread. The jurors are idiots. The FACT is: we know no
such thing. In fact, the depth of what we don't know is rather astounding. We
don't know what evidence they considered, we don't know their backgrounds, we
don't know their reasonings, we don't know the legal issues (as evidenced by
the fact we think the jurors held EAA responsible for the actions of the pilot),
and YET, we still conclude that the jurors were idiots and that they were stupid.
and, in fact, anytime an award is given, it's because they were stupid.
I don't know Snohomish County that well. I don't know who the jurors were, but
absent that information, I'm certainly not going to conclude that they were stupid.
What on earth is the justification for concluding that we -- who know very little
about the case -- have a wisdom beyond those who spent 2 1/2 weeks intimately
examining the issues and evidence?
We don't even know what we don't know. And yet we want the family, the lawyers,
the courts and anyone we can get our hands on lynched.
Funny thing about lynch mobs. They usually don't know all sides of the story, and
they're not all that interested in finding out.
As pilots and self-admitting "smarter than most people" members of the population,
shouldn't we at least be INTERESTED in more knowledge?
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88287#88287
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
> Common sense would suggest that the crash was in no way the fault of the eaa
or fire department.
>
> Unfortunately our current legal system does not recognize common sense.
>
>
Maybe you guys have more access to information here than I do. If so, could one
of you please provide me with the data that said the legal system held that the
crash was the fault of the EAA or fire department?
I am aware of NO data that says the verdict held the EAA or fire department responsible
for the crash -- a verdict that WOULD be outrageous. If the data is out
there, please provide a link.
As near as I can tell, what the jury was asked to consider was whether the EAA
provided adequate fire and emergency response services.
So for the sake of intelligent analysis, how about focusing on what the case was
actually about?
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88291#88291
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
N395V wrote:
> We have allowed our elected representatives and through them the appointed judiciary
FYI, in Washington state, judges stand for election.
do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88292#88292
Message 16
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| Subject: | Transition training |
Bob, I'm no expert but I Had been an instructor for the BPPP(Beechcraft
Pilot Proficiency Program) for many years. We did 3 day recurrent and
advanced instruction all over the US in all Beechcraft models up through
pressurized twins. We had the most diverse and experienced instructors
imaginable. Hank was Commander of the Thunderbirds(his son is now a t-bird).
Kent was Commander of the USS America. Ron was a nuclear physicist. Greg was
a young, world renown Brain surgeon who's goal was to retire and just
instruct full time. Bill was an inventor with many patents who put
instructing ahead of everything else, and the list goes on. They all had a
passion for aviation that they loved to share. The administrator for the
program is one of my closest friends. Sorry to ramble on, and I'm not sure
any of this is germane to your needs so I'll close by saying I'd be happy to
answer you questionnaire if you like.
Regards,
John
Message 17
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| Subject: | Transition training |
Hi Bob
I will do this training this yr and would love to have any list that has
people, places, and what they offer as training in aerobatics and recovery
from unusual attitudes.
Keith Hedrick
RV 6 @ 3LF
Carlinville IL
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:54 AM
Subject: RV-List: Transition training
I've wanted to write a piece for the RV Builder's Hotline (and some other
pubs) about transition training for some time, but I've never had much luck
getting some of the main "players" to get back to me. So I've been sending
out some questionairres to RV jockeys who've had transition training.
If you've taken transition trianing classes or programs, and would be
interested in answering about five e-mailed quesitions, could you please
send me a note at rvnewsletter (at) comcast.net?
Also, if you provide transition training and would like to be listed at the
end of the article, similarly let me know.
Thanks
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88257#88257
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Transition training |
Quoting Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>:
>
> I've wanted to write a piece for the RV Builder's Hotline (and some other
> pubs) about transition training for some time, but I've never had much luck
> getting some of the main "players" to get back to me. So I've been sending
> out some questionairres to RV jockeys who've had transition training.
>
> If you've taken transition trianing classes or programs, and would be
> interested in answering about five e-mailed quesitions, could you please send
> me a note at rvnewsletter (at) comcast.net?
>
> Also, if you provide transition training and would like to be listed at the
> end of the article, similarly let me know.
>
> Thanks
>
> Do not archive
> Bob: I took the transtition training with Jan Bussell Excellent
his tel. is 863.467.9354
Bert
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88257#88257
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
I don't think you're going to convince too many folks, Bob. The
facts are fairly well-known at this point:
-The guy crashed entirely and completely due to his own fault
-Fire & rescue were on the scene in under 5 minutes (NTSB report)
-Volunteers were trying to put out the fire even prior to fire and
rescue arrival
5 minutes is not a huge amount of time. It's unreasonable (my
opinion) to expect fire and rescue to sit in the trucks for 14 hours
at a time. It's unreasonable to expect fire & rescue to be in their
gear for 14 hours at a time. It's just too hot, which will have a
significant and negative impact on effectiveness once facing a
crisis. Which means they need time to:
-Know there's an issue and get enough details to know how to respond
-Toss on gear
-Get in trucks
-Start trucks
-Drive to the scene in a safe fashion
-Get out of trucks, grab appropriate gear, put the fire out, pull the
guy from the wreck, and get him into an ambulance
And the jury thought less than 5 minutes wasn't fast enough?
Airports are big places, and air shows have a lot of people,
aircraft, etc that could be between wherever fire and rescue was
staged and the site of the accident. You don't just push a button
and *pop* you're at the accident site. You don't park the rescue
trucks next to the runway, because that's a traffic hazard likely to
cause an accident. Thus, the rescue trucks are NOT going to be
immediately on scene. They will have some travel time. In a crash &
burn, the necessary delay means the guy is going to burn.
EAA contracted with the fire department, which by definition is the
most capable organization to supply fire and rescue services. If the
fire department isn't good enough, no one is.
All of us are now paying this widow an unreasonable amount of money
because her husband was a bad pilot.
The only thing I can envision EAA did wrong was if they forced fire &
rescue to hang out in some horrible location on the far side of the
field from any likely accidents and heavily hindered from leaving
that location by traffic areas. Do you think that's what happened?
I doubt it, but that's the only thing I can think of that would
justify this sort of finding.
-Joe
On Jan 17, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Bob Collins wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
> [quote="jmsears(at)adelphia.net"]
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, those same jurers have no idea that their
>> judgements can
>> result in lost jobs for those who work for the companies being
>> sued. Sure,
>> insurance may cover most; but, there are times when the legal
>> costs in such
>> cases put bussinesses out of business. Of course, the jurors who
>> gave the
>> large judgement have no idea that a jury in another part of the
>> country may
>> well be sitting in on a trial that could end jobs in this jury's
>> neighborhood. That stupidity runs nationwide.
>>
>
>
> This my problem with the thread. The jurors are idiots. The FACT
> is: we know no such thing. In fact, the depth of what we don't know
> is rather astounding. We don't know what evidence they considered,
> we don't know their backgrounds, we don't know their reasonings, we
> don't know the legal issues (as evidenced by the fact we think the
> jurors held EAA responsible for the actions of the pilot), and YET,
> we still conclude that the jurors were idiots and that they were
> stupid. and, in fact, anytime an award is given, it's because they
> were stupid.
>
> I don't know Snohomish County that well. I don't know who the
> jurors were, but absent that information, I'm certainly not going
> to conclude that they were stupid.
>
> What on earth is the justification for concluding that we -- who
> know very little about the case -- have a wisdom beyond those who
> spent 2 1/2 weeks intimately examining the issues and evidence?
>
> We don't even know what we don't know. And yet we want the family,
> the lawyers, the courts and anyone we can get our hands on lynched.
>
> Funny thing about lynch mobs. They usually don't know all sides of
> the story, and they're not all that interested in finding out.
>
> As pilots and self-admitting "smarter than most people" members of
> the population, shouldn't we at least be INTERESTED in more knowledge?
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88287#88287
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Transition training |
I did mine with Jan a year ago as well and it was just what the Dr. ordered. No
acro but he's preparing you for first flight, not first IAC competition. His
return to field after takeoff is a real eye opener to the RV performance.
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
From: bertrv6@highstream.net
>
> Quoting Bob Collins :
>
> >
> > I've wanted to write a piece for the RV Builder's Hotline (and some other
> > pubs) about transition training for some time, but I've never had much luck
> > getting some of the main "players" to get back to me. So I've been sending
> > out some questionairres to RV jockeys who've had transition training.
> >
> > If you've taken transition trianing classes or programs, and would be
> > interested in answering about five e-mailed quesitions, could you please send
> > me a note at rvnewsletter (at) comcast.net?
> >
> > Also, if you provide transition training and would like to be listed at the
> > end of the article, similarly let me know.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Do not archive
> > Bob: I took the transtition training with Jan Bussell Excellent
> his tel. is 863.467.9354
>
>
> Bert
> > --------
> > Bob Collins
> > St. Paul, Minn.
> > RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> > http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88257#88257
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>I did mine with Jan a year ago as well and it was just what the Dr. ordered.
No acro but he's preparing you for first flight, not first IAC competition.
His return to field after takeoff is a real eye opener to the RV
performance.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>lucky</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: bertrv6@highstream.net
<BR><BR>> --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net
<BR>> <BR>> Quoting Bob Collins <BCOLLINSRV7A@COMCAST.NET>: <BR>>
<BR>> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <BCOLLINSRV7A@COMCAST.NET><BR>>
> <BR>> > I've wanted to write a piece for the RV
Builder's Hotline (and some other <BR>> > pubs) about transition training
for some time, but I've never had much luck <BR>> > getting some of the
main "players" to get back to me. So I've been sending <BR>> > out some
questionairres to RV jockeys who've had transition training. <BR>> > <BR>>
> If you've taken transition trianing classes or programs, and would
be <BR>> > interested in answering about five e-mailed quesitions, could
you please send <BR>> > me a note at rvnewsl
etter
=====
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
Keep in mind that if the insurance companies feel the award was
unjustified, then they can appeal, and appeal ......
Linn
And can we use 'do not archive' on this thread???
Joseph Larson wrote:
>
> I don't think you're going to convince too many folks, Bob. The
> facts are fairly well-known at this point:
>
> -The guy crashed entirely and completely due to his own fault
>
> -Fire & rescue were on the scene in under 5 minutes (NTSB report)
>
> -Volunteers were trying to put out the fire even prior to fire and
> rescue arrival
>
> 5 minutes is not a huge amount of time. It's unreasonable (my
> opinion) to expect fire and rescue to sit in the trucks for 14 hours
> at a time. It's unreasonable to expect fire & rescue to be in their
> gear for 14 hours at a time. It's just too hot, which will have a
> significant and negative impact on effectiveness once facing a
> crisis. Which means they need time to:
>
> -Know there's an issue and get enough details to know how to respond
> -Toss on gear
> -Get in trucks
> -Start trucks
> -Drive to the scene in a safe fashion
> -Get out of trucks, grab appropriate gear, put the fire out, pull the
> guy from the wreck, and get him into an ambulance
>
> And the jury thought less than 5 minutes wasn't fast enough?
> Airports are big places, and air shows have a lot of people,
> aircraft, etc that could be between wherever fire and rescue was
> staged and the site of the accident. You don't just push a button
> and *pop* you're at the accident site. You don't park the rescue
> trucks next to the runway, because that's a traffic hazard likely to
> cause an accident. Thus, the rescue trucks are NOT going to be
> immediately on scene. They will have some travel time. In a crash &
> burn, the necessary delay means the guy is going to burn.
>
> EAA contracted with the fire department, which by definition is the
> most capable organization to supply fire and rescue services. If the
> fire department isn't good enough, no one is.
>
> All of us are now paying this widow an unreasonable amount of money
> because her husband was a bad pilot.
>
> The only thing I can envision EAA did wrong was if they forced fire &
> rescue to hang out in some horrible location on the far side of the
> field from any likely accidents and heavily hindered from leaving
> that location by traffic areas. Do you think that's what happened?
> I doubt it, but that's the only thing I can think of that would
> justify this sort of finding.
>
> -Joe
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Bob Collins wrote:
>
>>
>> [quote="jmsears(at)adelphia.net"]
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, those same jurers have no idea that their judgements
>>> can
>>> result in lost jobs for those who work for the companies being
>>> sued. Sure,
>>> insurance may cover most; but, there are times when the legal costs
>>> in such
>>> cases put bussinesses out of business. Of course, the jurors who
>>> gave the
>>> large judgement have no idea that a jury in another part of the
>>> country may
>>> well be sitting in on a trial that could end jobs in this jury's
>>> neighborhood. That stupidity runs nationwide.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This my problem with the thread. The jurors are idiots. The FACT is:
>> we know no such thing. In fact, the depth of what we don't know is
>> rather astounding. We don't know what evidence they considered, we
>> don't know their backgrounds, we don't know their reasonings, we
>> don't know the legal issues (as evidenced by the fact we think the
>> jurors held EAA responsible for the actions of the pilot), and YET,
>> we still conclude that the jurors were idiots and that they were
>> stupid. and, in fact, anytime an award is given, it's because they
>> were stupid.
>>
>> I don't know Snohomish County that well. I don't know who the jurors
>> were, but absent that information, I'm certainly not going to
>> conclude that they were stupid.
>>
>> What on earth is the justification for concluding that we -- who
>> know very little about the case -- have a wisdom beyond those who
>> spent 2 1/2 weeks intimately examining the issues and evidence?
>>
>> We don't even know what we don't know. And yet we want the family,
>> the lawyers, the courts and anyone we can get our hands on lynched.
>>
>> Funny thing about lynch mobs. They usually don't know all sides of
>> the story, and they're not all that interested in finding out.
>>
>> As pilots and self-admitting "smarter than most people" members of
>> the population, shouldn't we at least be INTERESTED in more knowledge?
>> Do not archive
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Collins
>> St. Paul, Minn.
>> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88287#88287
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
//The guy crashed entirely and completely due to his own fault
Not a matter of dispute in the case.
//Fire & rescue were on the scene in under 5 minutes (NTSB report)
Not a matter of dispute in the case. (The attorney said 6)
//Volunteers were trying to put out the fire even prior to fire and
rescue arrival
They weren't part of the case.
//5 minutes is not a huge amount of time. It's unreasonable (my
opinion) to expect fire and rescue to sit in the trucks for 14 hours
at a time. It's unreasonable to expect fire & rescue to be in their
gear for 14 hours at a time.
Well, again, we really don't know the "facts" here about what was considered reasonable.
Let's assume your airline slides off the end of the runway and breaks
into flames today. Is 5 minutes considered a "reasonable" amount of time for
an emergency response.
We don't know the answer to that. But I'd be willing to bet the guy in charge of
emergency response down the road at Minneapolis St. Paul airport would say "no."
MSP is a bigger airport -- a busier airport than Arlington and I'm guessing the
response time would be faster for the first truck to arrive merely because it's
been determined ahead of time that getting there is a priority for those services.
Again, not knowing the FACTS of 2 1/2 weeks of testimony (and you don't either),
I'd be willing to bet that the reasonableness of five minutes was very much
considered in this case.
// Do you think that's what happened?
I doubt it, but that's the only thing I can think of that would
justify this sort of finding.
I've said dozens of times over two days that I don't KNOW what happened. The difference
is that I'm not willing to substitute what I THINK happened as fact.
I'm merely advocating we get more information before determining that everyone
was a scumbag here.
A lot of folks spend a lot of time on these boards following accidents lambasting
the media -- and sometimes appropriately so -- for writing stuff without knowing
what they're talking about.
This is a time when we ought to listen to our own advice, and at least consider
educating ourselves on the case, and the testimony, before declaring what is
and isn't fact.
Why is that such a bad thing?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88333#88333
Message 23
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| Subject: | Why is it such a bad thing |
> Why is that such a bad thing?
>
Its a bad thing because you premise most of what you say based on a belief that.....
The eaa and FD are culpable
That trials do not go to juries unless there is "something there"
That juries are competent to make decisions that are correct.
This is pure crap.
The guy died because he flew an airplane and crashed.
The eaa and fd are out 10.5 million.
Our legal system is out of control and the prime beneficiaries are lawyers
The cost of everything goes up because of this crap and it is perpetuated by people
who think it is OK.
Judges are also "elected" here in Mississippi. Unfortunately the law requires they
be lawyers. Many old laws still on the books still keep a large part of our
population from voting. Hardly representative I think.
In Mississippi as well as other states. Minorities fair worse in criminal cases
for the same crimes.
Wealthy people and corporations fare worse than middle income and low income defendants.
So much for a juries abilities and talents.
Do not archive
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88345#88345
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Learning Basic Aileron in RV (HOW TO DO LOOPS) |
>"If you want to use internet advice for acrobatics
>(which ain't a good idea, by the way), make sure
>you are talking with someone who has an
>airframe/engine/prop combination that is very
>similar to yours."
Kyle, you are entitled to your opinion but if you
need more than 140 mph or 3gs to get over the top
of a LOOP you are doing it wrong. Pulling MORE
g's than 3 will cause more loss of airspeed. If you
are flying faster than 140 mph that's fine, but NO
one needs to do that and it's MORE hazardous to
fly fast aerobatics as the load factors increase. In
fact a 2.5 g's initial pull up will work at 120 mph
depending on weight, 140/3g's is plenty.
ITS NOT A MATTER OF GETTING OVER THE
TOP ITS A MATTER OF MAKING A NICE ROUND
LOOP.
Now you did remind me of one thing, I forgot to
mention. I have a constant speed prop. For those
with fixed pitch prop you may consider adding
power after starting a LOOP and reducing it on the
back side to maintain RPM, to get max
performance. HOWEVER my basic advice is valid
for typical RV's. I know I've flown a 1/2 dozen
RV's. Stall? so what, recover. If its buffeting on the
top release back pressure, it will go over the top.
Constant speed props really shine doing aerobatics.
Rolls are not and issue because the airspeed remains
fairly constant, but with a fixed pitch prop, as the
speed decays/increases, throttle adjustment is needed.
As a CFI let me tell you I would rather have my
fellow RV'er follow my practice and self
evaluation and guide lines (g-meter, min alt 3000
feet, max speed 140, max 3 g's) than have some
knowledge than NONE. You say internet advice
like that is a slam. I have well over 1000 hours in
RV's, total time about 15,000 hours. I clearly
recommend getting some dual and reading some
basic acro books. However 30 hours of Acro dual
is a lot.
MANY MANY pilots have taught themselves
basic acro. To deny it and make it secret info is not
going to change the reality, people are going to try
it. I would rather they have my advice than
nothing. Bottom line know thy self. If you are a
weak pilot, have a hard time landing and taking off,
you can't do private pilot maneuvers within the
standards, than ACRO is not for you. HOWEVER
acro is what RV's are about and they do make
better pilots. Acro has risk, but solo at 3,000 ft
is not high risk if you use your head.
I think my step by step practice and advice is good.
Take it or leave it.
Cheers, George
>From: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Learning Basic Aileron
>in RV (HOW TO DO LOOPS)
>I have not tried initiating a loop at 140 mph and 3
>G's, so the following is just my opinion: In my light
>RV-6 with a 160 hp engine and a cruise pitched prop,
>I do not believe the airplane would make it over the top
>of a 140 mph/3 G loop. Instead, I'd get to experience a
>full power departure stall while inverted. My entry speed
>and initial target G are both higher than 140/3...If you
>want to use internet advice for acrobatics (which ain't a
>good idea, by the way), make sure you are talking with
>someone who has an airframe/engine/prop combination
>that is very similar to yours.I'm sure a light RV-4 with a
>constant speed prop can be looped from far slower speeds
>than my airplane.
---------------------------------
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Message 25
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| Subject: | Landing an RV-9 sans flaps ... |
I have over 350 hours on the RV-9A that I have been flying and have found t
he following things about the flaps on it. For landings I have found that
up to about 2/3 to 3/4 you do get added lift and controlability. The last
quarter is pretty much just drag to help slow the plane down. My final app
roach speed is 72-74 mph indicated. (yours may differ). With that being sa
id my stall speed with full flaps is right around 47 mph indicated. We als
o happen to have an AOA sensor that agrees with the 47 mph. If I use the m
id yellow range for approaches then my final indicated speed would be right
around 68 mph but I find that the plane's controlability is better at just
a slightly higher speed.
For take-offs I never use flaps unless it is a short field (less than 2000
ft), then I only use half flaps. I have also found out that the plane will
go just fine up to around 140 IAS with flaps still down. You feel somewha
t funny trying to figure out why the plane isn't going as fast as you think
it should with 75% power until you notice the loose nut behind the control
stick forgot to raise the flaps after take-off.
Again, this is just what I have found. Your results may vary.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
RV-8A, RV-6A, RV-9A
From: gerf@gerf.comTo: rv-list@matronics.comDate: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 00:09:54
hear other's experiences with flaps on the RV-9. So far I haven't used the
m on takeoff per Mike Seager's teaching. I haven't had much use for them o
n landing either. Admittedly its early days and I haven't been able to rea
lly get into the pattern what with the brand new engine, but she seems mush
y and floaty with 1/2 flaps in the flare. With no flaps it just parks with
a touch more speed and directional control. This could be my Citabria exp
erience speaking .. ain't got no flaps.g
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
N395V wrote:
>
>
> Its a bad thing because you premise most of what you say based on a belief that.....
>
>
Absolutely no basis in fact. None. What I base my premise on is simply this: (a)
there is a difference between what we THINK we know as fact, and what is fact
(b) it is always better to want to know as much as possible about something
and to recognize when we don't.
>
> That juries are competent to make decisions that are correct.
>
> This is pure crap.
>
I don't live in Mississippi so I can't comment on the justice system there. But
I think over the course of 200+ years, people in this company who serve on juries
have proven that it's a darned good system and that they are capable of
making decisions that are correct.
Are there exceptions, of course. But arguing that a good old fashioned lynching
by people who haven't taken the time -- and apparently don't WANT to- take the
time to listen fairly to the evidence is a better system of justice is just,
well, kinda whacky, imho.
I think people are always afraid of being wrong. And given how far out on a limb
(lynching, get it? Thank you, I'm here all week, order the veal and tip your
waitress!) you've all gotten with this one, considering all the facts might well
cause us to reconsider what we think we know.
Me? I DON'T know but I sure as heck am interested in finding out more.
This is a lot like the nose gear debate, imho. Because we have a bunch of RV-a's
flipping over...therefore it simply MUST be a bad design. We COULD spend our
time and pool our resources and considerable talent actually analyzing the design.
But we don't. We fold our arms, say "stupid Van's" and conclude that there's
a problem because, well, there simply MUST be.
What we ought to do is just calm down and seek more information. If you examine
it and decide the jury is stupid, then that's certainly your right.
Reminds me of an old newsroom joke here.
One editor says to a reporter, "did you check your facts?" And the reporter says,
"why? I ruin a lot of good stories that way."
(do not archive)
Incidentally, for those of us who use the Web site, the "do not archive" command
is not intuitive. It probably should be built in to the interface. I believe
that everything on the Web form is archived.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88356#88356
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Landing an RV-9 sans flaps ... |
Thanks Mike,
Us newbies who are about to launch into the wonderful world of
"RV's" (especially the 9-A) appreciate the data. I hope to be launching
in about 4 months in my 9-A.
Jim Nelson
RV9-A QB
(Finishing up FWF)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
Someone asked for the NTSB report.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 001212X19356&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=SEA99FA105&rpt=fa
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,976 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
_________________________________________________________________
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop.
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2
Message 29
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| Subject: | RV blast from the past story |
The cold weather got me thinking about famous RVating in the cold and thought
I'd share an old story with some of the RV newbies who might not know about one
famous little RV4 and its brush with cold weather fame...
http://www.southpolestation.com/news/rv4/rv4.html
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/jj-persn.htm and at the bottom of this link there's 3 more pages
enjoy the reading with your hot chocolate.
lucky
<html><body>
<DIV>The cold weather got me thinking about famous RVating in the cold and
thought I'd share an old story with some of the RV newbies who might not know
about one famous little RV4 and its brush with cold weather fame...</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<P></FONT><A href="http://www.southpolestation.com/news/rv4/rv4.html"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>http://www.southpolestation.com/news/rv4/rv4.html</U></FONT></A></P><FONT size=2>
<P></FONT><A href="http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/jj-persn.htm"><U><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/jj-persn.htm</U></FONT></A><FONT size=2> and at the bottom of this link there's 3 more pages</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>enjoy the reading with your hot chocolate.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>lucky</P></FONT></DIV>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
I have stayed out of the jury debate, but lets put this out there for
the jury system in America and its infatuation with who is right.
Remember O.J.? They found him not guilty, and in the next case for money
they found him guilty, two different Jury's deciding the outcome based
on the same information presented. Explain that one?
The system is broken and needs to be fixed. The end result is the guy
killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything regardless of
what happened, everything else is fodder.
Lets get back to building planes, because I can see how an engine debate
is directly relevant to airplane building but do not understand how jury
duty even relates, other than lost time from pounding rivets.
Dan
N289DT (RV10E)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:09 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
N395V wrote:
>
>
> Its a bad thing because you premise most of what you say based on a
belief that.....
>
>
Absolutely no basis in fact. None. What I base my premise on is simply
this: (a) there is a difference between what we THINK we know as fact,
and what is fact (b) it is always better to want to know as much as
possible about something and to recognize when we don't.
>
> That juries are competent to make decisions that are correct.
>
> This is pure crap.
>
I don't live in Mississippi so I can't comment on the justice system
there. But I think over the course of 200+ years, people in this
company who serve on juries have proven that it's a darned good system
and that they are capable of making decisions that are correct.
Are there exceptions, of course. But arguing that a good old fashioned
lynching by people who haven't taken the time -- and apparently don't
WANT to- take the time to listen fairly to the evidence is a better
system of justice is just, well, kinda whacky, imho.
I think people are always afraid of being wrong. And given how far out
on a limb (lynching, get it? Thank you, I'm here all week, order the
veal and tip your waitress!) you've all gotten with this one,
considering all the facts might well cause us to reconsider what we
think we know.
Me? I DON'T know but I sure as heck am interested in finding out more.
This is a lot like the nose gear debate, imho. Because we have a bunch
of RV-a's flipping over...therefore it simply MUST be a bad design. We
COULD spend our time and pool our resources and considerable talent
actually analyzing the design. But we don't. We fold our arms, say
"stupid Van's" and conclude that there's a problem because, well, there
simply MUST be.
What we ought to do is just calm down and seek more information. If you
examine it and decide the jury is stupid, then that's certainly your
right.
Reminds me of an old newsroom joke here.
One editor says to a reporter, "did you check your facts?" And the
reporter says, "why? I ruin a lot of good stories that way."
(do not archive)
Incidentally, for those of us who use the Web site, the "do not archive"
command is not intuitive. It probably should be built in to the
interface. I believe that everything on the Web form is archived.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88356#88356
Message 31
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Looks like Cappy is out for the weekend. I took Cappy's Toy up this
afternoon and she had fuel pressure problems. Reading HIGH. Probably just
a sensor problem. My ears still did not feel right either from the cold
that is almost gone. So I'm out. Hope you guys have a great time without
me and drink one to me when you are out at night. CNX my room reservation
please on Crotherocity.com. That's you Reno.
Cappy
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
> The end result is the guy
> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything regardless of
> what happened, everything else is fodder.
You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last 1,000 main wing
spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and with substandard material,
there'll be at least 1,000 builders on this board who won't be posting, "whoops,
my fault." (g)
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
Message 33
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| Subject: | Fuel Pressure Problems |
Today my Fuel Pressure was consistently reading above 7.5 psi and at one
point was reading 9.1. This was at cruise with the Facet pump off at 45 F.
Additionally, it was erratic sometimes as low as 4.5.
Im flying behind an XP 0-360, MA 4.5 carburetor and EIS 4000 with standard
plumbing. Some time ago I was having low pressure problems and changed the
sensor which seemed to fix the problem. Im thinking the sensor is just
reading to high.
It doesnt seem like the engine pump could actually be producing too much
pressure. If it were, does anyone know if there is any potential harm to
the carburetor?
Has anyone else experienced similar problems? What should the Fuel
Pressure actually be? Has anyone got any ideas?
Thanks,
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
N123SG RV-8
Cappy's Toy - 400 Hours
Message 34
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Cappy- what kind of malfunction are you concerned about with a high
reading? Clogged injector or something?
Just trying to reason out why this is a trip-cancelling item for you.
Hope I am never faced with the same dilemma.
Best wishes to all the Florida-bound SERVers.
-Stormy
On 1/17/07, Steve Glasgow <willfly@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Looks like Cappy is out for the weekend. I took Cappy's Toy up this
> afternoon and she had fuel pressure problems. Reading HIGH. Probably just
> a sensor problem. My ears still did not feel right either from the cold
> that is almost gone. So I'm out. Hope you guys have a great time without
> me and drink one to me when you are out at night. CNX my room reservation
> please on Crotherocity.com. That's you Reno.
>
> Cappy
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Transition training |
I built an RV-7 and did transition training in RV-6 because that is what
was available locally. I suggest training be in like type and model.
Flying a Cessna 140 to get tailwheel endorsement is quite a bit
different from flying an RV6 or 7 or 9 and it would not have prepared me
as well as flying the RV-6.
Larry in Indiana.
----- Original Message -----
From: lucky
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Transition training
I did mine with Jan a year ago as well and it was just what the Dr.
ordered. No acro but he's preparing you for first flight, not first IAC
competition. His return to field after takeoff is a real eye opener to
the RV performance.
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
From: bertrv6@highstream.net
>
> Quoting Bob Collins :
>
> >
> > I've wanted to write a piece for the RV Builder's Hotline (and
some other
> > pubs) about transition training for some time, but I've never
had much luck
> > getting some of the main "players" to get back to me. So I've
been sending
> > out some questionairres to RV jockeys who've had transition
training.
> >
> > If you've taken transition trianing classes or programs, and
would be
> > interested in answering about five e-mailed quesitions, could
you please send
> > me a note at rvnewsl etter ======
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Pressure Problems |
On 17 Jan 2007, at 16:39, Steve Glasgow wrote:
> <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
>
> Today my Fuel Pressure was consistently reading above 7.5 psi and
> at one point was reading 9.1. This was at cruise with the Facet
> pump off at 45 F. Additionally, it was erratic sometimes as low as
> 4.5.
>
> Im flying behind an XP 0-360, MA 4.5 carburetor and EIS 4000 with
> standard plumbing. Some time ago I was having low pressure
> problems and changed the sensor which seemed to fix the problem.
> Im thinking the sensor is just reading to high.
>
> It doesnt seem like the engine pump could actually be producing
> too much pressure. If it were, does anyone know if there is any
> potential harm to the carburetor?
>
> Has anyone else experienced similar problems? What should the
> Fuel Pressure actually be? Has anyone got any ideas?
There should be fuel pressure limits in the operating manual for that
engine. How does your observed pressure compare to those limits?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
It relates because this one incident may cost us one of the best EAA flyins
in the country. You make a good point about a jury system, but you make your
point and then you want to end the discussion by saying, "because I can see
how an engine debate is directly relevant to airplane building but do not
understand how jury duty even relates, other than lost time from pounding
rivets.", maybe just use the delete key if you aren't interested in the
discussion. There is a tendency to think posts to this list are out of place
unless they relate directly to what one is doing at the moment. Check out
Matt's stated purpose for the list. It is NOT just about building. Someone
died in an RV crash and the repercussions may affect a great many of us. I
think it's a valid topic.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
Oh yes, do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
I have stayed out of the jury debate, but lets put this out there for
the jury system in America and its infatuation with who is right.
Remember O.J.? They found him not guilty, and in the next case for money
they found him guilty, two different Jury's deciding the outcome based
on the same information presented. Explain that one?
The system is broken and needs to be fixed. The end result is the guy
killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything regardless of
what happened, everything else is fodder.
Lets get back to building planes, because I can see how an engine debate
is directly relevant to airplane building but do not understand how jury
duty even relates, other than lost time from pounding rivets.
Dan
N289DT (RV10E)
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
amount, regardless of the details. Even if the EAA shoved the
emergency folks in some out of the way corner of the airport where
they were guaranteed to be slow, I don't think that by itself should
result in a liability suit.
I don't want to be held liable for expectations of service unless I
specifically contracted to provide those services. Did the EAA
provide a written guarantee to provide this pilot a certain response
time in the case of an accident? Probably not. So these implied
expectations are bull hockey.
-J
On Jan 17, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>
> LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
>> The end result is the guy
>> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything
>> regardless of
>> what happened, everything else is fodder.
>
>
> You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last
> 1,000 main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and
> with substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on
> this board who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | RV9a pushrod to aileron question |
I'm trying to get the pushrod to the aileron on the right wing to move
smoothly, however, the pushrod is hitting the inboard side of the aft
spar where the pushrod travels through the hole. Can I file the hole
bigger so the rod and the rivets will not drag and or hit the aft spar?
Thanks.
Jim
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Terry Watson wrote:
> It relates because this one incident may cost us one of the best EAA flyins
> in the country.
Why not require everyone who flies in sign a waiver that absolves the EAA, the
city, and its agents of all liability. That says specifically if you crash, you're
on your own. We offer no emergency services. Period.
People would sign before they're allowed to fly in.
Also, maybe this will solve the other problem that people flying in seem to have
-- the great unwashed being allowed on the flight line. Maybe EAA will see
everyone as a potential lawsuit and limit access.
I'm guessing EAA will be just fine. It's a flippin' money machine with deep pockets
and fat cat corporate benefactors.
For the record, btw, I'll be making doubly sure at OSH at this year's RV BBQ that
the food is safe to eat; not that anyone here would hold it against me if
they ate bad meat, mind you. (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88422#88422
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details.
I understand that. I even share some of those concerns (except for the "regardless
of the details" part. Those tend to matter to me). But, then again, I didn't
have a loved one burn to death, either.
Like I said, however, it depends on whether the guy could have survived his injuries.
I haven't seen the autopsy report. I presume the jury did.
If the guy could have lived but died because the agency responsible for emergency
response was unreasonably slow (again, I'm not saying they were. I'm not saying
they weren't), then that would seem to me there's something to deliberate
over.
As for you not thinking the EMS should be held liable, I fully appreciate that
stance which, I assume, is formed via some deliberation in your own mind. But
I actually DO respect the jury process becuase juries are made up of people like
you and me and everyone else we know and while it's fun to say "juries are
stupid," I don't think you're stupid, and I don't think I'm stupid.
I don't know, by the way, if you've ever sat in a courtroom as a judge instructs
a jury but it's an excrutiatingly long process and very intricate with specifics
about what can and what can't be considered.
I don't know what the judge's instructions were in this case but, again, I DO know
that there's more to this story than what ANN , in its less-than-objective
fashion, decided to write. And, of course, they weren't there either.
As someone said earlier, just as we demand that people hold off judging what happened
in any plane crash until the facts are known, so too is it an appropriate
instruction here.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88428#88428
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
And that is the general problem with society today. Everyone expects
something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they can
find. It's really a sad state of affairs when we have to have laws put
in place to protect good Samaritans so people wouldn't just pass up
someone in trouble because they are afraid of getting sued.
Same thing goes with jury's that award millions of dollars for acts of
Darwinism just because they don't want to close the door on the chance
they may get a windfall down the road. Remember the McDonalds coffee
incident or one of hundreds similar.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
amount, regardless of the details. Even if the EAA shoved the
emergency folks in some out of the way corner of the airport where
they were guaranteed to be slow, I don't think that by itself should
result in a liability suit.
I don't want to be held liable for expectations of service unless I
specifically contracted to provide those services. Did the EAA
provide a written guarantee to provide this pilot a certain response
time in the case of an accident? Probably not. So these implied
expectations are bull hockey.
-J
On Jan 17, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>
> LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
>> The end result is the guy
>> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything
>> regardless of
>> what happened, everything else is fodder.
>
>
> You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last
> 1,000 main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and
> with substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on
> this board who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
>
>
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: RV9a pushrod to aileron question |
I had to open the hole on mine to get clearance. To minimize the amount
you have to bore away, rotate the pushrod so the shop heads of the rivets
are the furthest away from closest edge of the hole. Another option is t
o weld the rod end to the rod rather than riveting it - that eliminates t
he extra interference issue you have to deal with caused by the rivets.
g
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty [mailto:jfogarty@tds.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 03:10 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV9a pushrod to aileron question
I'm trying to get the pushrod to the aileron on the right wing to move sm
oothly, however, the pushrod is hitting the inboard side of the aft spar
where the pushrod travels through the hole. Can I file the hole bigger so
the rod and the rivets will not drag and or hit the aft spar?
Thanks.
Jim
========================_
=====
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
[quote="rvbuilder(at)sausen.net" Everyone expects
something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they can
find. [/quote]
OK, not to quibble, but I will. I think what bothers me is an otherwise intelligent
group of people, smart enough to fly, and smart enough to build airplanes....
aren't at all interested in learning more about what exactly this case was
about.
Instead we've decided that (1) juries are stupid (2) the family of a dead pilot
should be hanged (3) everyone wants something for nothing.
That's an awful lots of generalization (and not to quibble but if that last one
is true, that includes the person who said it.).
I'm trying to turn this whole thing on its ear because -- being in the news media
-- I read the same sort of generalizations here and on VAF whenever there's
a story in the mainstream media about a plane crash or about an aviation event.
Onlyt hen it goes like this:
(1) Reporters are stupid (2) Reporters don't check their facts before deciding
what the story is (3) Reporters should wait until they know the facts before
speculating on what happened.
So that's why I'm pretty awestruck by this thread which leads me to wonder.....
which way do you want it? 'Cuz I recognize a lot of the same names that said
a few months ago "The media is stupid because it doesn't check facts before spewing"
now saying "we don't care about the facts or details."
This is an interesting and newsworthy case precisely because the jury verdict is
unusual. Not because it happens all the time.
Isn't there anyone out there who wants to learn more? Or at least take the same
advice some of you have given to the media about wild speculation and uninformed
generalizations?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88450#88450
Message 45
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| Subject: | RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun |
Has anyone seen anything posted about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this weekend? I will
be in Palm Beach and plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I haven't seen any
chatter, I don't want to be there by my lonsome.
Randy Hooper
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Product liability is a whole different ball of wax. And as the builder
we are responsible for the airworthiness of our kits, so even if Vans
did send out bad spars, we would be responsible, the only thing that
could change that is if it was the wrong temper of metal, or a bad batch
of metal from Alcoa, then we would have a leg to stand on, but if they
were built improperly, we are the builders and accept the responsibility
for the parts we had manufactured on our behalf..right? "GRIN"
I too agree there is an argument to everything, but my point is where
does personal responsibility end and begin. The pilot in question was
there by his own choice, he was not told or made to attend, nor was he
working the show, flying is in of itself a hazardous recreational
activity, and certain responsibilities are assumed. If we as a society
want to keep persuing risky activities and not have them regulated out
of existence we must start to accept that responsibility for our
actions. If a person is skiing and runs into a tree, and dies from the
cold before the ski patrol arrives, the ski resort is not responsible,
read the back of the lift ticket, skiing is an inherently dangerous
sport...yadda, yadda, yadda. Just like flying, if you take off with the
seatbelt wrapped around the passenger stick, you as a pilot can already
know what will happen. Lets face it, he was in a hurry to leave, low
time pilot, in a new plane, and was dis-oriented on the airport, got in
a bigger hurry because people were watching him back taxi, and made the
mistake during take off.
Yes, we are all arm chair quarterbacking, but end result was it was the
pilot error that caused the accident, regardless of what happened, none
of it would have taken place if the pilot broke the chain of events
before the crash, that is the personal responsibility that is at stake
here. The pilot chose to take part in a risky endeavor, and paid the
ultimate price, nobody else caused that crash, he did. The family/lawyer
has sour grapes for whatever reason, but it was not product liability
that caused the accident.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:41 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
> The end result is the guy
> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything regardless of
> what happened, everything else is fodder.
You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last 1,000
main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and with
substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on this board
who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Bob, I for one would like to know more. However that said, I have a hard
time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone else is
responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies services didn't show
up at all. Had they caused the crash and then didn't respond accordingly to
attempt to make their wrong right it would be different. But... They
didn't. Instead they showed up and made every attempt short of getting
someone else hurt to do what they are trained to do. Nobody at the scene
wanted this man to crash and nobody wanted him to die. I witnessed it and I
didn't want this to happen. I wasn't able to run over there and save him,
should I be responsible somehow also? So yes the facts are certainly
important, but for me it will be interesting to see what could possibly
cause me to change my mind and say somebody should pay out millions of
dollars for some part of what happened because of his unfortunate mistake.
By the way I sat on a jury for a pretty high profile case. I was terribly
disillusioned and swore I would never do it again. Quite frankly there were
some on the jury who thought the nice man couldn't have possibly done that.
It isn't a perfect system, and often it really sucks.
By the way, however mentioned the OJ case as an example. The civil system
works quite differently than the criminal system. With criminals given so
many rights it is much harder to convict. Preponderance of the evidence vs.
no doubt or something like that. Not a good example to compare, but a good
example of why our system is really broke. Any body can sue anybody and the
judge won't through out a bad case no matter how much it costs you to fight
it. It sucks!
Do Not Archive this junk
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:38 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
>
>
> [quote="rvbuilder(at)sausen.net" Everyone expects
> something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they can
> find. [/quote]
>
> OK, not to quibble, but I will. I think what bothers me is an otherwise
> intelligent group of people, smart enough to fly, and smart enough to
> build airplanes.... aren't at all interested in learning more about what
> exactly this case was about.
>
> Instead we've decided that (1) juries are stupid (2) the family of a dead
> pilot should be hanged (3) everyone wants something for nothing.
>
> That's an awful lots of generalization (and not to quibble but if that
> last one is true, that includes the person who said it.).
>
> I'm trying to turn this whole thing on its ear because -- being in the
> news media -- I read the same sort of generalizations here and on VAF
> whenever there's a story in the mainstream media about a plane crash or
> about an aviation event.
>
> Onlyt hen it goes like this:
>
> (1) Reporters are stupid (2) Reporters don't check their facts before
> deciding what the story is (3) Reporters should wait until they know the
> facts before speculating on what happened.
>
> So that's why I'm pretty awestruck by this thread which leads me to
> wonder..... which way do you want it? 'Cuz I recognize a lot of the same
> names that said a few months ago "The media is stupid because it doesn't
> check facts before spewing" now saying "we don't care about the facts or
> details."
>
> This is an interesting and newsworthy case precisely because the jury
> verdict is unusual. Not because it happens all the time.
>
> Isn't there anyone out there who wants to learn more? Or at least take
> the same advice some of you have given to the media about wild speculation
> and uninformed generalizations?
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88450#88450
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
You are exactly correct Terry someone died in a plane crash 7 years ago
and we hashed it out then, and then again 3 years ago when it was first
decided, and we are now spending more time arm chair quarterbacking a
bad piloting decision.
There is no way a reasonable person could see it any way other than
that, in my opinion, it is the jury looking at a large corporation and
deciding to stick it to them. The pilot made the error, he was there by
choice, no one forced him there, paid him to be there, or implied that
there would be services available if he caused an accident. How is this
situation any different than if you fly into any small airport and
crash? Does your surviving family members have a right to sue the local
fire department because they were not on scene quickly enough? No, the
lawyer sees a large cash cow (the EAA) and decided to talk the family
into going after it. This is the exact reason a $10k airplane now costs
$200k, product liability, and who has the deepest pockets.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
It relates because this one incident may cost us one of the best EAA
flyins
in the country. You make a good point about a jury system, but you make
your
point and then you want to end the discussion by saying, "because I can
see
how an engine debate is directly relevant to airplane building but do
not
understand how jury duty even relates, other than lost time from
pounding
rivets.", maybe just use the delete key if you aren't interested in the
discussion. There is a tendency to think posts to this list are out of
place
unless they relate directly to what one is doing at the moment. Check
out
Matt's stated purpose for the list. It is NOT just about building.
Someone
died in an RV crash and the repercussions may affect a great many of us.
I
think it's a valid topic.
Terry
RV-8A finishing
Oh yes, do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
I have stayed out of the jury debate, but lets put this out there for
the jury system in America and its infatuation with who is right.
Remember O.J.? They found him not guilty, and in the next case for money
they found him guilty, two different Jury's deciding the outcome based
on the same information presented. Explain that one?
The system is broken and needs to be fixed. The end result is the guy
killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything regardless of
what happened, everything else is fodder.
Lets get back to building planes, because I can see how an engine debate
is directly relevant to airplane building but do not understand how jury
duty even relates, other than lost time from pounding rivets.
Dan
N289DT (RV10E)
Message 49
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| Subject: | how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges |
I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel
gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find
it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the
senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are
made.
Confession time: I have these gauges in my plane now, but have lost
the old wiring diagram I drew at the time (which would have been an
embarassment if it still existed, like the rat's nest behind my
present panel). I need the info to design relevant parts of the
diagram for the new electrical system.
Thanks,
-Bill B.
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Bob
I do not think the issue is about not wanting the details, because based
on the facts we do have we are making the decision that it should never
have gone farther than he crashed and it is over. Instead, we all feel
that the lawyer talked the family into proceeding. I do not think most
people automatically blame someone else, especially in a case like this.
They know he was the one to do it, rather I feel it is the family
grasping at straws to make it okay in their mind, that the pilot would
not be that dumb to kill himself and it could not possibly be his fault.
But the lawyer is playing on those fears of wrongness and talked the
family into going after whoever had the money, we all know the lawyers
follow the deep pockets, and in this case, 3.5 million in commission
plus expenses looks pretty good and I too would try to talk someone into
going for it.
Just my .02
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:38 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
[quote="rvbuilder(at)sausen.net" Everyone expects
something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they can
find. [/quote]
OK, not to quibble, but I will. I think what bothers me is an otherwise
intelligent group of people, smart enough to fly, and smart enough to
build airplanes.... aren't at all interested in learning more about what
exactly this case was about.
Instead we've decided that (1) juries are stupid (2) the family of a
dead pilot should be hanged (3) everyone wants something for nothing.
That's an awful lots of generalization (and not to quibble but if that
last one is true, that includes the person who said it.).
I'm trying to turn this whole thing on its ear because -- being in the
news media -- I read the same sort of generalizations here and on VAF
whenever there's a story in the mainstream media about a plane crash or
about an aviation event.
Onlyt hen it goes like this:
(1) Reporters are stupid (2) Reporters don't check their facts before
deciding what the story is (3) Reporters should wait until they know the
facts before speculating on what happened.
So that's why I'm pretty awestruck by this thread which leads me to
wonder..... which way do you want it? 'Cuz I recognize a lot of the
same names that said a few months ago "The media is stupid because it
doesn't check facts before spewing" now saying "we don't care about the
facts or details."
This is an interesting and newsworthy case precisely because the jury
verdict is unusual. Not because it happens all the time.
Isn't there anyone out there who wants to learn more? Or at least take
the same advice some of you have given to the media about wild
speculation and uninformed generalizations?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88450#88450
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun FYI |
RV Weekend at the Sun N Fun Campus January 19, 20, 21 2007
LAL Lakeland Linder Airport Tower 124.5
Use LAKE PARKER ARRIVAL PROCEDURES
If unfamiliar with those procedures, tell the tower you are going to the RV Fly
In at Sun n Fun
Ground 121.4
Contact ground upon landing for parking instructions.
This is the BIG EVENT of the year for our group so PLAN TO ATTEND!
This is a grass roots fly in with no vendors and is open to all RV pilots, builders
AND dreamers. Drive in or fly in. All aircraft types are welcome but RVs
get "premier" parking.
Format will be the same as prior years - arrivals Friday afternoon .
All food will be catered this year at the Sun n Fun Cafe (self pay))
Dinner Served Friday Night
Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner served Saturday.
doughnuts and coffee Sunday morning with leisurely departures after that.
Door prizes and WELCOME in Forum area at 12:30. Door prizes graciously provided
by Van's Aircraft and Sun n Fun
Activity Schedule
Speaker Friday night 6:00 pm at Sun n Fun Museum Ron Lowery "Chasing Lewis and
Clark Across America" Tickets $10 in advance ($8 for members)/ $12 on site
($10 for members)
Forums SATURDAY
1:00 Ev Williston "Final Glide"
2:00 Smokey Joe (Rob Ray" "RV Mountain Flying"
3:00 Sam James FiberGlass 101
Camping ($15 for the weekend. No proration) available for the weekend ( NO HOOKUPS)
- showers - porti potties - camp fire Saturday night. You can camp in the
camping area OR under the wing.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: krhooper@gmail.com
Sent: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun
Has anyone seen anything posted about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this weekend? I will be
in Palm Beach and plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I haven't seen any chatter,
I don't want to be there by my lonsome.
Randy Hooper
________________________________________________________________________
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//I do not think the issue is about not wanting the details, because based
on the facts we do have we are making the decision that it should never have
gone farther than he crashed and it is over.
But that's the problem. If the guy had just had the good sense to die on
impact, it would have been over. But he didn't.
And no, we don't have any fact. We weren't at the court case and it's
obvious, by the way, that not a single news reporter was a the court either.
So we don't know, really, anything. All we know is we don't like the result
of a court case we know nothing about.
// Instead, we all feel that the lawyer talked the family into proceeding.
And that's fine. But that doesn't mean the lawyer did. That's my point. What
we THINK happen, doesn't mean that's what happened.
//They know he was the one to do it, rather I feel it is the family grasping
at straws to make it okay in their mind, that the pilot would not be that
dumb to kill himself and it could not possibly be his fault.
Whether the crash was his fault was NOT at issue in this case.
//But the lawyer is playing on those fears of wrongness and talked the
family into going after whoever had the money
And we don't know that either. We suspect this to be the case, but it
doesn't mean it is.
What we have here, frankly, is a lynch mob mentality. That doesn't mean
there isn't good reason for it, and I completely understand the emotional
reacton to that. What I DON'T understand is the lack of interest in even
considering that what we THINK is the story, might not be THE story.
Like I said before, what I've seen on this list in the last two days, is
the same thing a lot of you accuse the media of doing in the aftermath of a
big story that has not yet completely developed.
It's a lynch mob mentality. The guy who started this thread even said the
family should be lynched. The guy didn't even know that the court case
wasn't about what caused a plane to crash. Was it too hard to even check to
see what the jury was asked to decide?
We should be better than this. We should be smarter than this. We should
demand more of ourselves.
Do not archive
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
BlankThis sort of thing used to drive me to distraction but I think my
head has instituted some sort of self defense mechanism in the last few
years. To reduce the time wasted by me writing and others reading, I'll
make this mercifully short.
We as a nation (along with all the others) have the country, government,
laws, and legal system that we deserve.
Seriously, try it on for size, it really helps! Do what you can to fix
this sorry state of affairs but realize that beyond staying true to
Reason and freedom in your own head, there isn't much you can do.
The other thing that helps is to shove the throttle forward and feel the
wings of your RV lift you above it all. Ahaaaa........ :)
Tracy Crook
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry E. James<mailto:larry@ncproto.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:13 PM
Subject: RV-List: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
I'll start an interesting and likely charged thread. A court here in
Washington State has awarded the family of Don Corbitt a settlement of
$10.5M; from the EAA and Northwest EAA.
First, what happened to personal responsibility ?? If this pilot had
not crashed in the first place, this would not be an issue.
Second, how is this not the sole fault of the pilot ?? The pilot
could have (and we can now argue "should have") installed an on-board
fire suppression system; again eliminating the issue. Or the pilot
could have (should have) been a better pilot; again, elimination the
issue.
Third, the rest of the story: this pilot took off having left the
passenger seat-belt buckled around the control stick. That's right,
this pilot messed up pretty big. It is common and good practice to
secure an aircraft's control surfaces while parked and one easy way to
do this is to hold the control stick full aft with a seat belt. It is
also common and good practice (mandatory) to pre-flight the aircraft
before flying. It is also common and good practice (mandatory) to
perform a control check (all flight controls full and correct movement)
before launching. Obviously these two items were not done and the pilot
paid heavily for his error. This is also the nature of flying; it is
relatively safe, however mistakes can add up and have rather large
consequences ........ and the person responsible is the PIC.
How our court system determined that someone should pay for this
series of pilot errors is beyond me. And the family that instigated and
maintained this suit is a disgrace. And it is now they that will be
rewarded for this pilot's mistakes. This is sick.
If this guy didn't crash in the first place there wouldn't be an
issue. Or if he had installed a built-in-fire-suppression system we
wouldn't be talking about it either. Why is it always someone else's
fault ?? We should go lynch the family and heirs and attorneys that will
now profit from their husband / father / son / client's death. What a
bunch of crap. Oh, did I mention that I have an opinion on this ????
Larry E. James
Pacific Northwest
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Actually, the McDonald's coffee incident was a valid case. Here's
the wikipedia entry on the case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_coffee_case
The portions of this I consider significant are that:
-Stella Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for her medical
costs only ($20,000). McDonalds refused and offered $800.
-The coffee was SO incredibly hot that Liebeck suffered third degree
burns over 6% of her body, scalding her buttocks and groin. She
required skin grafting and 2 years of treatment.
-McDonald's coffee was being served as hot as 190 degrees (and
possibly slightly hotter). This temperature is far more than
required to make a drinkable cup of coffee. In fact, the company
acknowledges the coffee is not drinkable as served and requires cooling.
-McDonalds KNEW they were creating a dangerous situation, as they'd
had previous burn cases. Common sense indicates that anyone with a
cup of coffee in a styrofoam container in their car will periodically
spill the coffee. The manufacturer of the coffee thus should take
adequate steps to reduce the dangers. McDonald's refused to do so.
The disputed opinion is that coffee should be brewed hot but served
at something resembling a drinkable temperature. I'm not much of a
coffee drinker, but I once got a cup from a fast food restaurant that
when I took a sip 5 minutes later, I thought I had scaled the back of
my throat. My wife looked at me in alarm as I turned bright red and
started to gasp.
Coffee served that hot is dangerous. Handing it to someone in a car
in an inadequate container is even more dangerous. You may not agree
with the verdict, but if you look at the entire case, you can
understand that it wasn't completely frivolous.
-Joe
do not archive
On Jan 17, 2007, at 6:04 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> And that is the general problem with society today. Everyone expects
> something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they
> can
> find. It's really a sad state of affairs when we have to have laws
> put
> in place to protect good Samaritans so people wouldn't just pass up
> someone in trouble because they are afraid of getting sued.
>
> Same thing goes with jury's that award millions of dollars for acts of
> Darwinism just because they don't want to close the door on the chance
> they may get a windfall down the road. Remember the McDonalds coffee
> incident or one of hundreds similar.
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:12 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
>
>
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details. Even if the EAA shoved the
> emergency folks in some out of the way corner of the airport where
> they were guaranteed to be slow, I don't think that by itself should
> result in a liability suit.
>
> I don't want to be held liable for expectations of service unless I
> specifically contracted to provide those services. Did the EAA
> provide a written guarantee to provide this pilot a certain response
> time in the case of an accident? Probably not. So these implied
> expectations are bull hockey.
>
> -J
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
>
>> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>>
>>
>> LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
>>> The end result is the guy
>>> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything
>>> regardless of
>>> what happened, everything else is fodder.
>>
>>
>> You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last
>> 1,000 main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and
>> with substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on
>> this board who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
>>
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Collins
>> St. Paul, Minn.
>> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//The pilot made the error, he was there by choice, no one forced him there,
paid him to be there, or implied that there would be services available if
he caused an accident. How is this situation any different than if you fly
into any small airport and crash?
Simple. Because the EAA admitted it had responsibility to provide emergency
services when it contracted for emergency services.
//This is the exact reason a $10k airplane now costs $200k, product
liability, and who has the deepest pockets.
Well that's an interesting view considering that Van's offers absolutely no
guarantees when it sells metal parts to you that you make into an airplane,
and those parts cost you $17,000 without avionics or an engine.
But let me know if you can build me a plane for $10,000 and I'll gladly sign
anything that waives all liability.
And maybe I'll fill it up with some of that 29-cent-a-gallon gas while I'm
at it. (g)
Do not archive.
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//Bob, I for one would like to know more. However that said, I have a hard
time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone else is
responsible for his accident.
Would you at least concede that the issue here is NOT what caused the
accident?
// Even if the emergencies services didn't show up at all. Had they caused
the crash and then didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong
right it would be different. But... They didn't. Instead they showed up
and made every attempt
That very well may be true but since nobody -- so far -- has been able to
identify one witness, one piece of testimony,one judge's instruction or one
element of the case, we can't very well say that.
Look, I'll tell you what. I'll bankroll the cost of picking up the court
records. I know there's a lot of Rvers on the list who live in this area.
Wouldn't someone be willing to go to the courthouse, pick up the documents,
FEDEX 'em to me and I'll make them all available somehow online for proper
discussion. If it shows this widow is just some money grubbing woman who
should be lynched, so be it. If it shows something else, that's fine. But at
least it'll be an informed opinion and informed deliberation.
Anyone?
Please?
Bob
Do not archive
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Actually, I wasn't commenting about the trial or the rest of the
thread. I do believe I was pretty specific in my first line on what I
was commenting on. I didn't read anything about the settlement so I
can't comment on that. As a journalist I would think the facts of my
statement are clear to you. :-)
Oh ya, and seeing how this disappeared or was forgotten.... do not
archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:38 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
[quote="rvbuilder(at)sausen.net" Everyone expects
something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they can
find. [/quote]
OK, not to quibble, but I will. I think what bothers me is an otherwise
intelligent group of people, smart enough to fly, and smart enough to
build airplanes.... aren't at all interested in learning more about what
exactly this case was about.
Instead we've decided that (1) juries are stupid (2) the family of a
dead pilot should be hanged (3) everyone wants something for nothing.
That's an awful lots of generalization (and not to quibble but if that
last one is true, that includes the person who said it.).
I'm trying to turn this whole thing on its ear because -- being in the
news media -- I read the same sort of generalizations here and on VAF
whenever there's a story in the mainstream media about a plane crash or
about an aviation event.
Onlyt hen it goes like this:
(1) Reporters are stupid (2) Reporters don't check their facts before
deciding what the story is (3) Reporters should wait until they know the
facts before speculating on what happened.
So that's why I'm pretty awestruck by this thread which leads me to
wonder..... which way do you want it? 'Cuz I recognize a lot of the
same names that said a few months ago "The media is stupid because it
doesn't check facts before spewing" now saying "we don't care about the
facts or details."
This is an interesting and newsworthy case precisely because the jury
verdict is unusual. Not because it happens all the time.
Isn't there anyone out there who wants to learn more? Or at least take
the same advice some of you have given to the media about wild
speculation and uninformed generalizations?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88450#88450
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun |
The Sun n' Fun website Coming Events format makes finding this one kind
of difficult. But I'll be there anyway Randy! Hope some of these other
guys show up as well.
Tracy Crook
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Hooper<mailto:krhooper@gmail.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun
Has anyone seen anything posted about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this weekend?
I will be in Palm Beach and plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I
haven't seen any chatter, I don't want to be there by my lonsome.
Randy Hooper
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV-List>
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//nobody else caused that crash, he did. The family/lawyer has sour grapes
for whatever reason, but it was not product liability
that caused the accident.
Again, product liability isn't the issue. The cause of the crash isn't the
issue.
What contributed to the man's death is an issue. Did he? Hell yes. Of course
he did. He flew a plane into the ground.
Is there a responsibility on anyone's part once that plane hit the ground?
If your son or daughter is involved in a car crash tonight. Is there a
responsibility once the first responders get there. Is there a reasonable
standard of care they should have?
When he or she gets to the hospital, is there a standard of care that can be
expected. Or is it OK, if a doctor could save his/her life through some
means, but chooses instead to finish watching the last segment of American
idol before they try to restart her heart.
Silly? Of course the scenario is. But OF COURSE the doctors have a
responsibility. Of COURSE the first responders have a responsibility. That
responsibility is not rendered moot by the fact your so or daughter chose to
go drive a car that night.
The EAA recognized it had a responsibility to provide emergency services at
the airshow. Why? Because it did. Whether that was provided in a proper
manner we can't know.
But to suggest that because the pilot crashed in the first place, that
respnsibility doesn't matter, is as silly as saying at your local E.R.
tonight, the medical standards don't matter either, because everyone there
had a personal responsibility not to end up there.
You want to string up a lawyer. Here's what I suggest. String up whoever
represented the EAA.
Do not archive.
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
When you phrase it this way, which reading over the other posts for the
third time, I finally see the light. I do agree that we are convicting
before we know everything. Right or wrong with the verdict, we need to
see everything they did before we pass judgment.
Agreed, now I can move on...my Eggenfellner will be delivered in a
couple of week wanna come help install it on the 10?
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:09 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
//I do not think the issue is about not wanting the details, because
based
on the facts we do have we are making the decision that it should never
have
gone farther than he crashed and it is over.
But that's the problem. If the guy had just had the good sense to die on
impact, it would have been over. But he didn't.
And no, we don't have any fact. We weren't at the court case and it's
obvious, by the way, that not a single news reporter was a the court
either.
So we don't know, really, anything. All we know is we don't like the
result
of a court case we know nothing about.
// Instead, we all feel that the lawyer talked the family into
proceeding.
And that's fine. But that doesn't mean the lawyer did. That's my point.
What
we THINK happen, doesn't mean that's what happened.
//They know he was the one to do it, rather I feel it is the family
grasping
at straws to make it okay in their mind, that the pilot would not be
that
dumb to kill himself and it could not possibly be his fault.
Whether the crash was his fault was NOT at issue in this case.
//But the lawyer is playing on those fears of wrongness and talked the
family into going after whoever had the money
And we don't know that either. We suspect this to be the case, but it
doesn't mean it is.
What we have here, frankly, is a lynch mob mentality. That doesn't mean
there isn't good reason for it, and I completely understand the
emotional
reacton to that. What I DON'T understand is the lack of interest in even
considering that what we THINK is the story, might not be THE story.
Like I said before, what I've seen on this list in the last two days,
is
the same thing a lot of you accuse the media of doing in the aftermath
of a
big story that has not yet completely developed.
It's a lynch mob mentality. The guy who started this thread even said
the
family should be lynched. The guy didn't even know that the court case
wasn't about what caused a plane to crash. Was it too hard to even check
to
see what the jury was asked to decide?
We should be better than this. We should be smarter than this. We
should
demand more of ourselves.
Do not archive
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
We covered this case in my undergrad, this was the third time this
lawyer sued McDonalds because he felt the coffee was too hot. But the
public at large drinking coffee at McDonalds refused to drink the coffee
and complained when the temperature was decreased. This lawyer in
particular had a case with her because she was elderly, and spilled the
coffee on her genital area, and the pictures made for good press.
Here is another example we used in class, when fry's come out of the
fryer and are served direct to the public they are often hotter than the
coffee, but no one has sued them for burning there mouth because you
would be stupid to eat hot fry's. What actually happened with her was
that she was in a car that was not moving at the time, she took the lid
off of the cup, put in her condiments and incorrectly replaced the lid,
when she then picked up the coffee by the lid it then spilled in her
lap. So, the product was being used in a manner that it was not designed
for, the cup was more than thick enough to protect her hand from
burning, rather she picked it up by the lid, as well all have done.
What she had in her favor was a lawyer with a vendetta against McDonalds
and other fast food chains, and good pictures of what happened, and high
profile press. Look up the lawyer and his history and you will find an
ambulance chaser.
And yes I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I wrote my final
paper for my law class on this case, so following Bob's statement, and
guidelines I did investigate the facts and did not come to the same
conclusion as the jury as to what was presented in the court
proceedings.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
Actually, the McDonald's coffee incident was a valid case. Here's
the wikipedia entry on the case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's_coffee_case
The portions of this I consider significant are that:
-Stella Liebeck sought to settle with McDonald's for her medical
costs only ($20,000). McDonalds refused and offered $800.
-The coffee was SO incredibly hot that Liebeck suffered third degree
burns over 6% of her body, scalding her buttocks and groin. She
required skin grafting and 2 years of treatment.
-McDonald's coffee was being served as hot as 190 degrees (and
possibly slightly hotter). This temperature is far more than
required to make a drinkable cup of coffee. In fact, the company
acknowledges the coffee is not drinkable as served and requires cooling.
-McDonalds KNEW they were creating a dangerous situation, as they'd
had previous burn cases. Common sense indicates that anyone with a
cup of coffee in a styrofoam container in their car will periodically
spill the coffee. The manufacturer of the coffee thus should take
adequate steps to reduce the dangers. McDonald's refused to do so.
The disputed opinion is that coffee should be brewed hot but served
at something resembling a drinkable temperature. I'm not much of a
coffee drinker, but I once got a cup from a fast food restaurant that
when I took a sip 5 minutes later, I thought I had scaled the back of
my throat. My wife looked at me in alarm as I turned bright red and
started to gasp.
Coffee served that hot is dangerous. Handing it to someone in a car
in an inadequate container is even more dangerous. You may not agree
with the verdict, but if you look at the entire case, you can
understand that it wasn't completely frivolous.
-Joe
do not archive
On Jan 17, 2007, at 6:04 PM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> And that is the general problem with society today. Everyone expects
> something for nothing and if they don't get it they sue anyone they
> can
> find. It's really a sad state of affairs when we have to have laws
> put
> in place to protect good Samaritans so people wouldn't just pass up
> someone in trouble because they are afraid of getting sued.
>
> Same thing goes with jury's that award millions of dollars for acts of
> Darwinism just because they don't want to close the door on the chance
> they may get a windfall down the road. Remember the McDonalds coffee
> incident or one of hundreds similar.
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:12 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
>
>
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details. Even if the EAA shoved the
> emergency folks in some out of the way corner of the airport where
> they were guaranteed to be slow, I don't think that by itself should
> result in a liability suit.
>
> I don't want to be held liable for expectations of service unless I
> specifically contracted to provide those services. Did the EAA
> provide a written guarantee to provide this pilot a certain response
> time in the case of an accident? Probably not. So these implied
> expectations are bull hockey.
>
> -J
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
>
>> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>>
>>
>> LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
>>> The end result is the guy
>>> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything
>>> regardless of
>>> what happened, everything else is fodder.
>>
>>
>> You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last
>> 1,000 main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and
>> with substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on
>> this board who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
>>
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Collins
>> St. Paul, Minn.
>> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
The NTSB report says that the first responders (volunteer fire fighters)
were on site in less than 1 minute, and with in 1.5 minutes of their
arrival the fire was out, the autopsy reveals death by inhalation of
noxious fumes and burn trauma. So in reality he was dead before the fire
department got there, he was how ever not dead before the public
arrived, so in reality they should sue the public right?
Within reasonable expectations I would say the fire department responded
as quickly as possible.
But I would say there is a significant difference in being in an
emergency room and expecting correct care, versus suing the ambulance
company because they took too long to get to where your car burned up
with you inside of it.
But I do agree with you that we are making judgments not based on all of
the facts.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
//nobody else caused that crash, he did. The family/lawyer has sour
grapes
for whatever reason, but it was not product liability
that caused the accident.
Again, product liability isn't the issue. The cause of the crash isn't
the
issue.
What contributed to the man's death is an issue. Did he? Hell yes. Of
course
he did. He flew a plane into the ground.
Is there a responsibility on anyone's part once that plane hit the
ground?
If your son or daughter is involved in a car crash tonight. Is there a
responsibility once the first responders get there. Is there a
reasonable
standard of care they should have?
When he or she gets to the hospital, is there a standard of care that
can be
expected. Or is it OK, if a doctor could save his/her life through some
means, but chooses instead to finish watching the last segment of
American
idol before they try to restart her heart.
Silly? Of course the scenario is. But OF COURSE the doctors have a
responsibility. Of COURSE the first responders have a responsibility.
That
responsibility is not rendered moot by the fact your so or daughter
chose to
go drive a car that night.
The EAA recognized it had a responsibility to provide emergency services
at
the airshow. Why? Because it did. Whether that was provided in a proper
manner we can't know.
But to suggest that because the pilot crashed in the first place, that
respnsibility doesn't matter, is as silly as saying at your local E.R.
tonight, the medical standards don't matter either, because everyone
there
had a personal responsibility not to end up there.
You want to string up a lawyer. Here's what I suggest. String up whoever
represented the EAA.
Do not archive.
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
OK
In Late 1999 I bought my first airplane a Cherokee, it was hangered in Arlington,
the previous owner showed me right in front of our hanger door where an experimental
airplane crashed during the airshow that summer, he was there and
said it was the worse thing he'd ever seen, he tried to help, the gentleman in
the plane's last words were "I'm dead".
I looked at that burnt spot next to taxi way every time I taxied out of my hanger,
it even had flowers on it once in a while.
As a new pilot with my first airplane this really made me think if the was really
what I wanted to do "fly airplane's" people die doing this.
I was told it was "pilot error" with a seatbelt around the control stick and
lack of a good preflight, I wondered how someone could do this, then I was told
they were in a rush to get off the ground.
This has always been in my mind and I still look at the spot every once in a
while and in my mind I ask myself if I'm safe to fly and I will often do a control
check,
This has made me a better pilot,.,
Bob I work close the the Snohomish County Courthouse and will go get the court
record's if it's what we really need,
Dan
-8 Fuselage
N728RV (reserved)
Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
//Bob, I for one would like to know more. However that said, I have a hard
time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone else is
responsible for his accident.
Would you at least concede that the issue here is NOT what caused the
accident?
// Even if the emergencies services didn't show up at all. Had they caused
the crash and then didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong
right it would be different. But... They didn't. Instead they showed up
and made every attempt
That very well may be true but since nobody -- so far -- has been able to
identify one witness, one piece of testimony,one judge's instruction or one
element of the case, we can't very well say that.
Look, I'll tell you what. I'll bankroll the cost of picking up the court
records. I know there's a lot of Rvers on the list who live in this area.
Wouldn't someone be willing to go to the courthouse, pick up the documents,
FEDEX 'em to me and I'll make them all available somehow online for proper
discussion. If it shows this widow is just some money grubbing woman who
should be lynched, so be it. If it shows something else, that's fine. But at
least it'll be an informed opinion and informed deliberation.
Anyone?
Please?
Bob
Do not archive
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//Here is another example we used in class, when fry's come out of the fryer
and are served direct to the public they are often hotter than the coffee,
but no one has sued them for burning there mouth because you would be stupid
to eat hot fry's.
Ummm... Well I ain't no law school grad but I did work at McDonald's and,
well, huh? The reason nobody eats french fries at McDonld's hotter than the
coffee at mcdonald's is because nobody EVER got french fries at Mcdonald's
hotter than the coffee because (a) they come out of the fryer and onto a
holding area and then -- if you're really luck at McDonald's -- they're put
into a smallerbag of fries sometime within the same week...all the while the
heat is dissipating. In fact, the only heat at the time is two 200 watt
bulbs. This would be akin to taking a teaspoon of coffee blowing on it, and
then sipping it. (2) The pag they're put into is a, well, bag. Not an
insulated cup.
Coffee, on the othre hand is poured directliy FROM the equivalent of the
fryer, into an insulated cup, covered, and then it hits your lips.
Well, nevertheless, Dan... When the RV List comes to lynch the lawyers as
suggested, you can still hide at my house.
When the hordes come, we'll shimmy up to the roof and throw scaling french
fries at them!!!! (g)
And, by the way, McDonald's shouldn't have been sued because the coffee was
too hot. They should have been sued because their coffee really sucks.
Do not archive
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//The NTSB report says that the first responders (volunteer fire fighters)
were on site in less than 1 minute, and with in 1.5 minutes of their arrival
the fire was out, the autopsy reveals death by inhalation of noxious fumes
and burn trauma. So in reality he was dead before the fire department got
there, he was how ever not dead before the public arrived, so in reality
they should sue the public right?
Within reasonable expectations I would say the fire department responded as
quickly as possible.
I would also say 1 minute was a reasonable amount. However, that's an NTSB
report. It doesn't tell me where that information came from. I presume the
person was deposed during the court case, which is another reason I want to
see the documents. It also conflicts with someone who was there who posted
on this thread earlier, " just have a couple of things to say on this.
First, I was there and I did see the crash. The emergency services did NOT
take 30 minutes to arrive. I don't know if it was 5 minutes as I didn't time
it, but it wasn't much longer than that."
The NTSB was unusually specific about the time, but did not offer any source
for the information. There was a brief regading the use of the NTSB report
in the case that was filed on December 13. Obviously, I don't know what it
says.
Terry Watson was kind enough to send me the court records index
((http://tinyurl.com/2rle3d)). There are a few things I noticed in the list
including 5 jury requests of the judge on Dec. 22. I'd love to know what
those requests were because they would help us ascertain the level of their
stupidity. There's also records of the judges instructions. And even more
important, there are jury notes available. If I can get the name of the
jurors, I would have no problem calling them and finding out what was behind
their verdict (the jurors, I don't believe, set the $10 million penalty. I
believe the jurors found liability only. But I could be wrong.)
Interesting to me, though I don't know if it's significant, that the judge
on this trial was changed at least once. The eventual judge in the case --
David Kurtz -- wasn't appointed a judge by the governot until after the case
had been filed. Here's some background on him.
http://www.governor.wa.gov/news/news-view.asp?pressRelease=228&newsType=1 .
He's filling an unexpired term.
Another judge who ruled on a motion fo rreconsideration (of what, I do not
know) in early December was Eric Lucas. Background on him here:
http://www1.co.snohomish.wa.us/Departments/Superior_Court/About/Judges/Judge
+Lucas.htm. That ruling came the day the trial -- with Kurtz on the bench
-- opened. Hmmmm. It was Lucas who rejected the rquest for a summary
judgment in October 2006. (There were about 5 different summary judgement
requests and hearings)
A judge was changed because of some sort of prejudice in 2004. Judge David
F. Hulbert was taken off the case. Why? Beats me.
//But I would say there is a significant difference in being in an emergency
room and expecting correct care, versus suing the ambulance company because
they took too long to get to where your car burned up with you inside of it.
But I do agree with you that we are making judgments not based on all of
the facts.
What if they didn't come at all. I'm just pointing this out not to say the
ambulance company should be sued in this case, but that they have a
responsibility for action that does not go away just because the person made
the decision to get in the car and drive. The level of responsibility is
certainly a debatable one, but the assertion that there is not a convergence
in risky activities of multiple responsibilities is a non-starter for me.
The lawyer for the defense -- although I don't know which defendants -- is a
pilot and sure seems to know aviation.
http://www.carneylaw.com/attorneys/getProfile.asp?attorney_id=78. If anyone
feels like having an e-mail conversation with him for some background, you
can reach him at laveson@carneylaw.com . He might also have just been a
witness. I'm not sure.
Other filings came from Barbara Lawrence-tolbert, who I think is the
director of the fly-in.
There was a filing from someone named James T. Nilo, that someone filed a
motion to supress. I did find a James Nilo in Virginia. According to a Web
site "Nilo was instrumental in significantly reducing the cost of mandatory
rescue and fire fighting training at Virginia's airports. Due to the
prohibitive cost of constructing a training center, fire and rescue
personnel had to travel out of state to receive training at unfamiliar
airports. Nilo recognized that simulation training would be a cost-effective
alternative and secured funding to purchase a Mobile Aircraft Rescue and
Fire Fighting Training Simulator. In addition to significantly reducing
costs, the simulator allows training to be held at airports where personnel
work. "
If I had to guess, I'd guess Nilo was testifying on fire and rescue
operations at airports.
You know, this is a heck of an interesting story, and not just because I
like airplanes. I can remember when the Seattle Post Intelligencer was a
decent newspaper. They didn't cover this. No newspaper did. Mighty too bad.
Do not archive
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
> I'm guessing EAA will be just fine. It's a flippin' money machine with deep pockets
and fat cat corporate benefactors
Gosh, that makes it crystal clear to me why it was OK to hose the eaa with a huge
settlement.
Bet several of the brilliant, open minded, unbiased, absolutely fair jurors think
exactly the same way.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88516#88516
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will result
in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have anything to worry
about.
But you knew that, Milt. You knew that.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
> I'm guessing EAA will be just fine. It's a flippin' money machine with
> deep pockets and fat cat corporate benefactors
Gosh, that makes it crystal clear to me why it was OK to hose the eaa with a
huge settlement.
Bet several of the brilliant, open minded, unbiased, absolutely fair jurors
think exactly the same way.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel |
gauges
Bill Boyd wrote:
> I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel
> gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find
> it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the
> senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are
> made.
I still have a pair of these in the boxes. No documentation with them
(wouldn't have thrown it out, so they probably didn't come with any).
The three studs are marked on the back +, ground symbol, and S. This is
basically the same setup as the new Van's gages marked I (input +12v), G
(ground), and S (signal from the sender).
The new Van's gages install drawing is here:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Gauge_Install.pdf
Steve
Message 69
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Read this article today.
.
National Journal cover story this week titled " The Other Three Thousand" ( http://www.nationaljournal.com). The article, by Sydney J. Freedberg Jr., points out that the media, and even the military, have devoted more attention in this war to the 3,000-plus who have died than to the 3,000-plus who have been awarded medals for valor.
The lists overlap, as in Dunham's case, but most of the awardees are still alive.
They are people such as Army Staff Sgt. Thomas Stone, who on Feb. 21, 2005,
curled himself around a wounded comrade to protect him from an expected insurgent's
blast. "If it goes off, you're going to be okay," Stone told him. "Hug
your wife and kids, and don't ever forget me."
It didn't, and both were rescued. Stone remains in uniform today.
fredhiatt@washpost.com
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
I just found something in the NTSB report that Gary Sobek was kind enough to post.
"After pulling out the necessary hose and completing the hook-up of their respirator
system, which they began while en route, the firefighters applied water
on the flaming wreckage. Within a minute to a minute and a half after their arrival,
the fire was extinguished."
I wonder if one of the issues that was discussed was not necessarily the response
time, but the equipment that was used. I'm no first responder -- although my
son is -- but do you use water on a fuel-fed fire?
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88524#88524
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 01/16/07 |
In a message dated 1/17/2007 12:03:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rv-list@matronics.com writes:
The EAA's responsibility for that was right up until the moment when there
was
no other expectation of an outcome other than the pilot's death.
That's why I want to know if the pilot could've survived his crash.
I also was at Arlington when the accident occurred and witnessed the
takeoff, climb, stall & crash. It was a takeoff stall & crash, with the difference
from a normal takeoff stall was the extreme climb angle the aircraft climbed
at until the stall, I was not close enough to verify the actual position of
the controls during the climb and remainder of the airborne time, but from
all appearances and discussions at the time was the stick must have been full
back, possibly tied back with the seat belt to give the excessive climb angle.
I've seen my share of takeoff stall accidents in my 45+ years of flying for
a living and aircraft do not climb that steep unless there is something out
of the ordinary causing it.
Elbie
Elbie Mendenhall
President
EM Aviation, LLC
_http://www.riteangle.com_ (http://www.riteangle.com)
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