Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:48 AM - Sun-n-Fun RV's (jbker@juno.com)
2. 04:42 AM - Re: Sun-n-Fun RV's (Ed Anderson)
3. 04:44 AM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Mark Sletten)
4. 05:05 AM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 01/16/07 (LarryRobertHelming)
5. 05:21 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (Bill Boyd)
6. 05:31 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Jerry Springer)
7. 06:00 AM - Re: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun (Oliver Washburn)
8. 06:04 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Tim Bryan)
9. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
10. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
11. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Chuck Jensen)
12. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
13. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
14. 07:15 AM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (N395V)
15. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action (n801bh@netzero.com)
16. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Joseph Larson)
17. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Chuck Jensen)
18. 07:41 AM - Florida Surtax on Aviation Insurance (Richard Dudley)
19. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (n801bh@netzero.com)
20. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action (Bob Collins)
21. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
22. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
23. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob J.)
24. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Jae Chang)
25. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action (Chuck Jensen)
26. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Tracy Crook)
27. 01:54 PM - Re: high fuel pressure readings (joelrhaynes@aol.com)
28. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action (LarryRobertHelming)
29. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action (Tedd McHenry)
30. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Dwight Frye)
31. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action (Tim Bryan)
32. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Darrell Reiley)
33. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Darrell Reiley)
34. 06:42 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Darrell Reiley)
35. 06:43 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Paul Trotter)
36. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Terry Watson)
37. 06:50 PM - Appeal: Testify for EAA etc... (Darrell Reiley)
38. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Darrell Reiley)
39. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (RV6 Flyer)
40. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
41. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
42. 07:46 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
43. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Darrell Reiley)
44. 07:59 PM - Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Bob Collins)
45. 08:08 PM - Re: Appeal: Testify for EAA etc... (Bob Collins)
46. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Darrell Reiley)
47. 09:10 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Jerry Springer)
48. 09:53 PM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing (Vanremog@aol.com)
Message 1
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Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun
Has anyone seen anything posted about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this weekend?
I will be in Palm Beach and plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I
haven't seen any chatter, I don't want to be there by my lonsome.
Randy Hooper
_________________________________________________
I plan on being there Randy and know a lot of others who are planning on
coming. Hope to see you there.
Bernie Kerr, RV9A N10VX
<html><P>To: rv-list@matronics.com<MAILTO:RV-LIST@MATRONICS.COM> <BR>&nb
sp; Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:54 PM<BR> Subject: RV-List
: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun<BR><BR><BR> Has anyone seen anything post
ed about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this weekend? <BR>I will be in Palm Beach and
plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I <BR>haven't seen any chatte
r, I don't want to be there by my lonsome.<BR><BR> Randy Hooper<BR
><BR>_________________________________________________</MAILTO:RV-LIST@M
ATRONICS.COM></P>
<P><MAILTO:RV-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>I plan on being there Randy and know a
lot of others who are planning on coming. Hope to see you there.</MAILTO
:RV-LIST@MATRONICS.COM></P>
<P><MAILTO:RV-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>Bernie Kerr, RV9A N10VX</MA
ILTO:RV-LIST@MATRONICS.COM></P>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sun-n-Fun RV's |
Randy,
Here is what I have on the "RV weekend" at Lakeland this weekend
Ed
PLEASE NOTE ON YOUR CALENDAR THE JANUARY RV FLY-IN EVENT AT SUN-N-FUN:
RV Weekend at the Sun N Fun Campus January 19, 20, 21 2007
LAL Lakeland Linder Airport Tower 124.5 Ground 121.4
Contact ground upon landing for parking instructions.
This is the BIG EVENT of the year for our group so PLAN TO ATTEND!
This is a grass roots fly in with no vendors and is open to all RV
pilots,
builders AND dreamers. Drive in or fly in. All aircraft types are
welcome
but RVs get "premier" parking.
Format will be the same as prior years - arrivals Friday afternoon .
All food will be catered this year at the Sun n Fun Cafe (self pay))
Dinner Friday Night
Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner served Saturday.
doughnuts and coffee Sunday morning with leisurely departures after
that.
Door prizes and WELCOME in Forum area at 12:30. Door prizes graciously
provided by Van's Aircraft and Sun n Fun
Activity Schedule
Speaker Friday night 6:00 pm at Sun n Fun Museum Ron Lowery "Chasing
Lewis and Clark Across America" Tickets $10 in advance ($8 for
members)/
$12 on site ($10 for members)
Forums SATURDAY
1:00 Ev Williston "Final Glide"
2:00 To be Announced
3:00 Sam James FiberGlass 101
----- Original Message -----
From: jbker@juno.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:44 AM
Subject: RV-List: Sun-n-Fun RV's
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun
Has anyone seen anything posted about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this
weekend?
I will be in Palm Beach and plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I
haven't seen any chatter, I don't want to be there by my lonsome.
Randy Hooper
_________________________________________________
I plan on being there Randy and know a lot of others who are planning
on coming. Hope to see you there.
Bernie Kerr, RV9A N10VX
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
This argument continues to chase its own tail.
Tim Bryan said:
"I have a hard time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone
else is responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies services
didn't show up at all. Had they caused the crash and then didn't respond
accordingly to attempt to make their wrong right it would be different.
But. They didn't. Instead they showed up and made every attempt short of
getting someone else hurt to do what they are trained to do."
What Bob has asked is "How do you know?" How do you know what the responding
EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there? If you were, are you a trained EMS
responder? Do you know what the standard is for response time and actions?
Those who continue to offer "facts" to this list to further their arguments
have obviously lost the ability to discern the difference between fact and
opinion. Most have only read about the story here on this list, yet speak as
though there is no chance their view of the situation might be skewed. I
remember my old gaffer telling me as a young lad (kindergarten I believe)
"There are at least two sides to every story."
Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it personally distressing that
members of a community with which I identify myself are calling for violent
action against a family who used to be a member of that community - even if
the call to violence is only figurative. Let's assume for a moment
(shouldn't be much of a problem considering all the assumption going around)
that there IS more to this case than we've read here on the list, and those
calling to "hang the family" are doing so from a position of ignorance. What
if a member of that family were reading your vitriol? I wince (literally,
not figuratively) at that thought.
Aside from that, the closed minds and self-righteousness only gives those
you abhor (greed lawyers) further ammunition. I'm sure any competent lawyer
reading through this thread would laugh at how "stupid" we are.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Mark Sletten
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 01/16/07 |
Too bad the defendants did not call Elbie as an expert witness. I would
like to see the court transcripts to better understand what the
plaintiff's presented for such a nice settlement/award. I read the
NTSB report. It did not confirm the safety belt was around the stick
thereby holding it back although from what has been disclosed in recent
days here on this list it seems that was the case since no problems were
found by the NTSB investigation with the elevator controls otherwise.
None of us want to assume it could of otherwise been suicide.
By the way, McDonalds now puts in the cream/creamer and sweetener so the
customer does not have to remove the top to do so. If the lid comes off
now, we know it was McDonald's fault unless -- unless the customer
messes with it. I guess there are cameras on the McD delivery window to
record each action being taken for possible litigation use if there is
an issue. They probably have to keep each recording for a couple of
years. No wonder a fifteen cent cup of coffee costs about a buck now
days. Personally, I like my coffee hot and am currently aware enough
to know that I should read the outside of the cup that warns about it
being hot. My fault if I burn my mouth and I take tiny sips until it
cools a bit.
Indiana Larry do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: EMAproducts@aol.com
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:26 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 41 Msgs - 01/16/07
In a message dated 1/17/2007 12:03:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rv-list@matronics.com writes:
The EAA's responsibility for that was right up until the moment when
there was
no other expectation of an outcome other than the pilot's death.
That's why I want to know if the pilot could've survived his crash.
I also was at Arlington when the accident occurred and witnessed the
takeoff, climb, stall & crash. It was a takeoff stall & crash, with
the difference from a normal takeoff stall was the extreme climb angle
the aircraft climbed at until the stall, I was not close enough to
verify the actual position of the controls during the climb and
remainder of the airborne time, but from all appearances and discussions
at the time was the stick must have been full back, possibly tied back
with the seat belt to give the excessive climb angle.
I've seen my share of takeoff stall accidents in my 45+ years of
flying for a living and aircraft do not climb that steep unless there is
something out of the ordinary causing it.
Elbie
Elbie Mendenhall
President
EM Aviation, LLC
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro |
fuel gauges
Thanks, Steve. That's perfect. I had no idea Van's hosted this kind
of beautifully-drawn info online. Maybe I should look around the
Van's site more often. Did my building from a slowbuild 1994 kit, and
didn't even discover any online builders' communities until about 3
years into it. I think my set of RV-6 plans were drawn in crayon.
Now we have crisp CAD, available online. All I can say is, Wow. What
a great, new day to be in experimental aviation :-)
-BB
On 1/17/07, Steve Allison <stevea@svpal.org> wrote:
>
> Bill Boyd wrote:
> > I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel
> > gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find
> > it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the
> > senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are
> > made.
> I still have a pair of these in the boxes. No documentation with them
> (wouldn't have thrown it out, so they probably didn't come with any).
> The three studs are marked on the back +, ground symbol, and S. This is
> basically the same setup as the new Van's gages marked I (input +12v), G
> (ground), and S (signal from the sender).
>
> The new Van's gages install drawing is here:
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Gauge_Install.pdf
>
>
> Steve
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Well said Mark, and trust me the family and lawyers are reading this. I
was there, but well not comment on what I did or did not see because
I have had lawyers call me from reading this list before. As I recall
some of our own RV family tried desperately
to help Don but were unable to because of the fire, It was a very sad
day and for anyone that was not a witness to be commenting on what happened
without knowing the facts is total BS. IMO
Jerry
do not archive
Mark Sletten wrote:
> This argument continues to chase its own tail
>
> Tim Bryan said:
>
> I have a hard time believing that any of it will sway me to believe
> someone else is responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies
> services didn't show up at all. Had they caused the crash and then
> didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make their wrong right it
> would be different. But They didn't. Instead they showed up and made
> every attempt short of getting someone else hurt to do what they are
> trained to do.
>
> What Bob has asked is How do you know? How do you know what the
> responding EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there? If you were, are you
> a trained EMS responder? Do you know what the standard is for response
> time and actions?
>
> Those who continue to offer facts to this list to further their
> arguments have obviously lost the ability to discern the difference
> between fact and opinion. Most have only read about the story here on
> this list, yet speak as though there is no chance their view of the
> situation might be skewed. I remember my old gaffer telling me as a
> young lad (kindergarten I believe) There are at least two sides to
> every story.
>
> Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it personally distressing
> that members of a community with which I identify myself are calling
> for violent action against a family who used to be a member of that
> community even if the call to violence is only figurative. Lets
> assume for a moment (shouldnt be much of a problem considering all
> the assumption going around) that there IS more to this case than
> weve read here on the list, and those calling to hang the family
> are doing so from a position of ignorance. What if a member of that
> family were reading your vitriol? I wince (literally, not
> figuratively) at that thought
>
> Aside from that, the closed minds and self-righteousness only gives
> those you abhor (greed lawyers) further ammunition. Im sure any
> competent lawyer reading through this thread would laugh at how
> stupid we are
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> Mark Sletten
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun |
You won't be.
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/VAF-FL-Wing.html
Ollie
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Hooper
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV Weekend @ Sun-n Fun
Has anyone seen anything posted about RV's at Sun-n-Fun this weekend?
I will be in Palm Beach and plan to drive up on Saturday. Since I
haven't seen any chatter, I don't want to be there by my lonsome.
Randy Hooper
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Mark,
Let's be clear on something. I never called for anybody to be lynched nor
did I start this thread. Yes, I was there, but no I am not a first
responder. What I said was only based on one thing. This man died at his
own hand. His death was caused by the smoke inhalation which was caused by
the fire and caused by the wreck. Nobody contributed to any of this. If
the fire fighters did something adverse in his rescue, than they need to
have further training. If instead we start lynching the first responders
for their attempts, then were will we be? The responders didn't cause the
fire or the crash or the death. If they caused him to suffer more because
of their attempts, well your car will probably suffer more damage from the
wrecker tipping it back over than when you rolled it into the ditch. This
is just the way it is.
That said, I also said I WOULD be interested in seeing the actual facts. I
just can't imagine what could be in there that might change my mind about
"Who was at fault for this accident". I also can't see what could possibly
be worth this large judgment. I NEVER said I wanted to lynch anybody and I
was ready to throw a verdict now.
I just wanted to clear up my position since you quoted me.
Tim
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sletten
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:44 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
This argument continues to chase its own tail.
Tim Bryan said:
"I have a hard time believing that any of it will sway me to believe someone
else is responsible for his accident. Even if the emergencies services
didn't show up at all. Had they caused the crash and then didn't respond
accordingly to attempt to make their wrong right it would be different.
But. They didn't. Instead they showed up and made every attempt short of
getting someone else hurt to do what they are trained to do."
What Bob has asked is "How do you know?" How do you know what the responding
EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there? If you were, are you a trained EMS
responder? Do you know what the standard is for response time and actions?
Those who continue to offer "facts" to this list to further their arguments
have obviously lost the ability to discern the difference between fact and
opinion. Most have only read about the story here on this list, yet speak as
though there is no chance their view of the situation might be skewed. I
remember my old gaffer telling me as a young lad (kindergarten I believe)
"There are at least two sides to every story."
Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it personally distressing that
members of a community with which I identify myself are calling for violent
action against a family who used to be a member of that community - even if
the call to violence is only figurative. Let's assume for a moment
(shouldn't be much of a problem considering all the assumption going around)
that there IS more to this case than we've read here on the list, and those
calling to "hang the family" are doing so from a position of ignorance. What
if a member of that family were reading your vitriol? I wince (literally,
not figuratively) at that thought.
Aside from that, the closed minds and self-righteousness only gives those
you abhor (greed lawyers) further ammunition. I'm sure any competent lawyer
reading through this thread would laugh at how "stupid" we are.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Mark Sletten
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Too true, you would have laughed at us, we went to several McDonalds
around town, measuring various temps of the fry's at various times. We
found that during lunch time and other periods of high volume service
the French fry's did not sit the correct amount of wait time in the bin,
IE they were taken directly from the fryer, salted and distributed to
the customer. In these cases we asked for an example fry to measure
temperature's, and about 50% of the time the internal temp of the fry
was well over 200 degree's. This quickly dissipated over time, and like
you said they are supposed to sit in the bin cooling off, but that is
often not the case, we used this as a contrasting argument for the class
and one based on inconsistencies in what the lawyer was targeting as a
problem. In other words he was an ambulance chaser and that is what we
proved with our "mock" defense of McDonald's.
Since then I have decided that being a geek is a much nobler profession
and that is why I hide in the back room and do not talk to anyone other
than in emails.
Just my .0002
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:16 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
//Here is another example we used in class, when fry's come out of the
fryer
and are served direct to the public they are often hotter than the
coffee,
but no one has sued them for burning there mouth because you would be
stupid
to eat hot fry's.
Ummm... Well I ain't no law school grad but I did work at McDonald's
and,
well, huh? The reason nobody eats french fries at McDonld's hotter than
the
coffee at mcdonald's is because nobody EVER got french fries at
Mcdonald's
hotter than the coffee because (a) they come out of the fryer and onto a
holding area and then -- if you're really luck at McDonald's -- they're
put
into a smallerbag of fries sometime within the same week...all the while
the
heat is dissipating. In fact, the only heat at the time is two 200 watt
bulbs. This would be akin to taking a teaspoon of coffee blowing on it,
and
then sipping it. (2) The pag they're put into is a, well, bag. Not an
insulated cup.
Coffee, on the othre hand is poured directliy FROM the equivalent of the
fryer, into an insulated cup, covered, and then it hits your lips.
Well, nevertheless, Dan... When the RV List comes to lynch the lawyers
as
suggested, you can still hide at my house.
When the hordes come, we'll shimmy up to the roof and throw scaling
french
fries at them!!!! (g)
And, by the way, McDonald's shouldn't have been sued because the coffee
was
too hot. They should have been sued because their coffee really sucks.
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Nope water should not be used, rather AFFF, this is what we were trained
to use on all class B fires. Good catch another thing I noticed was that
they said the first people to arrive had fire extinguisher that were too
small and ran out, so that might be part of it. I too would be willing
to chip in some money to get copies of the actual proceedings. Do you
want to talk to the person who volunteered to get the info for us and
just tell me what I owe you for my half.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:45 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
I just found something in the NTSB report that Gary Sobek was kind
enough to post.
"After pulling out the necessary hose and completing the hook-up of
their respirator system, which they began while en route, the
firefighters applied water on the flaming wreckage. Within a minute to a
minute and a half after their arrival, the fire was extinguished."
I wonder if one of the issues that was discussed was not necessarily the
response time, but the equipment that was used. I'm no first responder
-- although my son is -- but do you use water on a fuel-fed fire?
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88524#88524
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
The issue of assumed liability is interesting, wherein by contracting
emergency services, the Fly In may actually have increased its liability
because now there was an implied expectation of response times, fire
fighting effectiveness, et al. Would the fly in participants have been
safer with no emergency response equipment on site? No, but the Fly In
organizers may well have had less liability.
Yes, this stands good reason on its head, but an analog to this was the
downhill skiing industry in the '60s. A few people had mangled
themselves by getting up close and personal with the chair lift
standards or trees on the very edge of downhill runs. Thinking that
dead patrons were unlikely to be return customers, the Ski Operators
under took a program of padding the standards (poles) that supported the
lifts and lights, if they had them. As proof of the concept of
unintended consequences, they shortly thereafter started getting sued by
pole-kissers that were injured or killed, alleging that padding was
insufficient or ineffectual. And, the plaintiffs were winning. The Ski
Lift Operators responded by removing the padding and allowing the bare
steel to again be exposed....end of problem since the poles and trees
were a known hazard and the exposure was willingly undertaken by those
who paid a fee to ply the slopes.
I don't know what the current ski operator practices are in this regard.
Myself, I gave up downhill in the '80s....I got tired of running into
poles and trees.
Chuck Jensen
P.S. As Bob Collier has repeatedly warned, factual knowledge is a wee
bit short in this matter as to what the jury considered and decided, but
lack of facts never slowed speculations--in fact, it usually accelerates
it!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
amount, regardless of the details. Even if the EAA shoved the
emergency folks in some out of the way corner of the airport where
they were guaranteed to be slow, I don't think that by itself should
result in a liability suit.
I don't want to be held liable for expectations of service unless I
specifically contracted to provide those services. Did the EAA
provide a written guarantee to provide this pilot a certain response
time in the case of an accident? Probably not. So these implied
expectations are bull hockey.
-J
On Jan 17, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>
> LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
>> The end result is the guy
>> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything
>> regardless of
>> what happened, everything else is fodder.
>
>
> You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last
> 1,000 main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and
> with substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on
> this board who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
// His death was caused by the smoke inhalation which was caused by the
fire and caused by the wreck. Nobody contributed to any of this. If the
fire fighters did something adverse in his rescue, than they need to have
further training. If instead we start lynching the first responders for
their attempts, then were will we be?
If we do that -- and we shouldn't -- without having the full story, then we
will be where we are: completely uninformed, not interested in finding out
what really happened, and dangerous in our ability to spread supposition as
fact to other readers who don't know any better.
I'm no big fan of the whole Seven Habits thing (Seven Habits of Highly
Effective People -- Steven Covey), but it is hard to argue with one of the
first rules "Seek FIRST to understand." The Wright Brothers didn't say "I
think we can fly so therefore we can, c'mon Orville let's go for a bike
ride," they investigated it, figured out what areas they were right about,
and what areas they were wrong about and constantly reassessed their
conclusion based on their desire to be more informed.
The trouble is in our AM-talk-radio driven society, we seem to be losing the
ability to step outside the pack and say, "hmmmmm, maybe what the host is
telling me right, and maybe what he's saying is wrong, I wonder if I have
enough information to know for sure."
Granted I'm overly sensitive to this. I'm in the news business and I see --
every day -- the decline in critical thinking or even the interest in it. I
cover politics for a living. You now what the politicians do in Minnesota at
election time? They change their name to Anderson. why? Becuae they know a
lot of voters (and certainly not a majority, but enough to make a
difference), will look at a name like "anderson" and say, "hey, good
Scandanavian name, she'll make a fine attorney general."
People have criticized the jury awad (although I still am pretty sure the
jury had nothing to do with the size of the award) for being stupid. Maybe
they were. Maybe they weren't. Everett, Washington -- as far as I kow -- is
full of really smart people, though.
We just have to stop this. And, no, you didn't call for a lynching and
violence again people in our RV community. But the guy who started this
thread did. And nobody -- nobody -- stepped in to say, "shame on you."
We are better than this. I just know it.
Bob
Do not archive in the archaic archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//Nope water should not be used, rather AFFF, this is what we were trained
to use on all class B fires. Good catch another thing I noticed was that
they said the first people to arrive had fire extinguisher that were too
small and ran out, so that might be part of it.
Maybe, although I took from the reading (and I well be making my own set of
assumptions), that they were mostly just plain folks, other aircraft owners
with extinguishers in their planes etc. In fact, as I read it, I thought,
"wow, there were some real heroes who were first on scene trying to get the
guy out of a burning wreck, who had the presence of mind to remember they
had those extinguishers and were able to quickly get them."
The other thing that I found interesting in the NTSB report was that the
plane only got up 70-100 feet before it crashed.
//I too would be willing to chip in some money to get copies of the actual
proceedings. Do you want to talk to the person who volunteered to get the
info for us and just tell me what I owe you for my half.
I'm going to send an e-mail to the clerk today and find out what the best
way for getting them is. There's no way I can afford to get all the paper
in this case at a buck a page, so I have to kind of cherrypick through the
list and figure out what can provide the most bang for the....ummm... Buck.
Bob
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Bob Collins wrote:
> Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will result
> in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have anything to worry
> about.
>
> But you knew that, Milt. You knew that.
>
> Do not archive
>
> --
Bob,
You are correct, I knew that and do not mean to belittle your opinion. I know from
your many posts and the hotline you are an honest open minded individual and
would be that way on a jury.
My point is that you are a rarity and most jurors bring a strong bias to the jury
room. Doesn't matter what the charge from the judge is when the door is closed
the jury does as it pleases.
I am a prime example, were I on the that jury I would enter the court with a mindset
of there is no way the eaa or first responders are gonna get burnt and I
am certain there would be one or more in the room who subscribe to the deep pocket
theory. I think at best the outcome of a trial is slightly biased in the
favor of fact and strongly biased in favor of raw emotion, sympathy for surviving
family, and prejudice.
I believe this is supported by the 2 extremes of responses to this thread.
do not archive
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RV Crash,, reverse action |
If the legal system operates on this bizarre nature then I suggest switc
hing rolls. For all the people who witnessed this crash caused by the wi
dows husband ,because of his lack of preflight to assure the controls we
re "FREE AND CORRECT", alot of poor people are mentally scarred for life
after seeing a human crash right in front of their eyes and burn to dea
th. The widow now has 6 million bucks to pay out to those with mental an
guish. Heck, any jury can and will find for the spectators. Now, I didn'
t see this horrible accident but have lost sleep lately because of readi
ng about it on various places. I am now suffering from the pilots action
s and I should file suit too.. Whats good for the goose is good for the
gander........
do not archive, I think
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details.
I understand that. I even share some of those concerns (except for the "
regardless of the details" part. Those tend to matter to me). But, then
again, I didn't have a loved one burn to death, either.
Like I said, however, it depends on whether the guy could have survived
his injuries. I haven't seen the autopsy report. I presume the jury did.
If the guy could have lived but died because the agency responsible for
emergency response was unreasonably slow (again, I'm not saying they wer
e. I'm not saying they weren't), then that would seem to me there's some
thing to deliberate over.
As for you not thinking the EMS should be held liable, I fully appreciat
e that stance which, I assume, is formed via some deliberation in your o
wn mind. But I actually DO respect the jury process becuase juries are
made up of people like you and me and everyone else we know and while it
's fun to say "juries are stupid," I don't think you're stupid, and I d
on't think I'm stupid.
I don't know, by the way, if you've ever sat in a courtroom as a judge i
nstructs a jury but it's an excrutiatingly long process and very intrica
te with specifics about what can and what can't be considered.
I don't know what the judge's instructions were in this case but, again,
I DO know that there's more to this story than what ANN , in its less-t
han-objective fashion, decided to write. And, of course, they weren't th
ere either.
As someone said earlier, just as we demand that people hold off judging
what happened in any plane crash until the facts are known, so too is it
an appropriate instruction here.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88428#88428
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P><BR>If the legal system operates on this bizarre nature then I
suggest switching rolls. For all the people who witnessed this crash cau
sed by the widows husband ,because of his lack of preflight to assure th
e controls were "FREE AND CORRECT", alot of poor people are mentally sca
rred for life after seeing a human crash right in front of their ey
es and burn to death. The widow now has 6 million bucks to pay out
to those with mental anguish. Heck, any jury can and will find for the s
pectators. Now, I didn't see this horrible accident but have lost sleep
lately because of reading about it on various places. I am now suff
ering from the pilots actions and I should file suit too.. Whats good fo
r the goose is good for the gander........</P>
<P>do not archive,
I think <BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspow
erair.com<BR><BR>-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcas
t.net> wrote:<BR>--> RV-List message posted&nb
sp;by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net><BR>
<BR><BR>jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:<BR>> Bob, I th
ink the problem is that most of us&nb
sp;don't think the EMS team <BR>> 
;should be held responsible for being slow
, and certainly not to this <BR>>
amount, regardless of the details.<BR><BR><BR>
I understand that. I even share some
of those concerns (except for the "regardl
ess of the details" part. Those tend
to matter to me). But, then again, I&
nbsp;didn't have a loved one burn to
death, either. <BR><BR>Like I said, however,&nb
sp;it depends on whether the guy could&nbs
p;have survived his injuries. I haven't se
en the autopsy report. I presume the
jury did.<BR><BR>If the guy could have liv
ed but died because the agency responsible
for emergency response was unreasonably s
low (again, I'm not saying they were. 
;I'm not saying they weren't), then that&n
bsp;would seem to me there's something to&
nbsp;deliberate over.<BR><BR>As for you not thi
nking the EMS should be held liable,
I fully appreciate that stance which, I&nb
sp;assume, is formed via some deliberation 
;in your own mind. But I actually&nb
sp;DO respect the jury process becuase jur
ies are made up of people like you&nb
sp;and me and everyone else we know a
nd while it's fun to say "juries are&
nbsp;stupid," I don't think you're stupid
, and I don't think I'm stupid.<BR><BR>I&n
bsp;don't know, by the way, if you've 
;ever sat in a courtroom as a judge&n
bsp;instructs a jury but it's an excrutiat
ingly long process and very intricate with
specifics about what can and what ca
n't be considered.<BR><BR>I don't know what&nbs
p;the judge's instructions were in this ca
se but, again, I DO know that there's
more to this story than what ANN&nbs
p;, in its less-than-objective fashion, decided
to write. And, of course, they weren
't there either.<BR><BR>As someone said earlier
, just as we demand that people hold&
nbsp;off judging what happened in any plan
e crash until the facts are known, so
too is it an appropriate instruction 
;here.<BR><BR>--------<BR>Bob Collins<BR>St. Paul, Minn.<
BR>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)<BR>http://rvhotline.exper
craft.com<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Read this topic online
here:<BR><BR>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88428#88428<B
========================
= - Th
bsp;Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
& Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,<
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
========================
sp; - NE
at content now also available via the 
========================
=================<BR></P>
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
I personally believe there's something wrong with the system when a
person *can't* assume liability for his own actions.
I believe strongly in the concept of "informed consent". If I buy an
airplane one of you built, I know the dangers and you should be
absolved of any liability provided you don't hide known defects from
me. It's not your job to tell me what the dangers are -- it's your
job to say, "This airplane was built by me and you should get it
inspected before you fly it. Also, I deviated from the plans when I
installed a whatchamacallit, so you'll want to have your mechanic pay
special attention to that and fix it if he's not satisfied." If I
then take the plane for a ride and the wings fall off cause you
forgot to put the bolts back in last night when getting it ready for
sale, that's my fault, not yours. You TOLD me to get it inspected
before I fly it, after all.
Unfortunately, our legal system doesn't agree with me.
-Joe
do not archive
On Jan 18, 2007, at 8:29 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
> The issue of assumed liability is interesting, wherein by contracting
> emergency services, the Fly In may actually have increased its
> liability
> because now there was an implied expectation of response times, fire
> fighting effectiveness, et al. Would the fly in participants have
> been
> safer with no emergency response equipment on site? No, but the
> Fly In
> organizers may well have had less liability.
>
> Yes, this stands good reason on its head, but an analog to this was
> the
> downhill skiing industry in the '60s. A few people had mangled
> themselves by getting up close and personal with the chair lift
> standards or trees on the very edge of downhill runs. Thinking that
> dead patrons were unlikely to be return customers, the Ski Operators
> under took a program of padding the standards (poles) that
> supported the
> lifts and lights, if they had them. As proof of the concept of
> unintended consequences, they shortly thereafter started getting
> sued by
> pole-kissers that were injured or killed, alleging that padding was
> insufficient or ineffectual. And, the plaintiffs were winning.
> The Ski
> Lift Operators responded by removing the padding and allowing the bare
> steel to again be exposed....end of problem since the poles and trees
> were a known hazard and the exposure was willingly undertaken by those
> who paid a fee to ply the slopes.
>
> I don't know what the current ski operator practices are in this
> regard.
> Myself, I gave up downhill in the '80s....I got tired of running into
> poles and trees.
>
> Chuck Jensen
> P.S. As Bob Collier has repeatedly warned, factual knowledge is a wee
> bit short in this matter as to what the jury considered and
> decided, but
> lack of facts never slowed speculations--in fact, it usually
> accelerates
> it!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:12 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
>
>
>
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details. Even if the EAA shoved the
> emergency folks in some out of the way corner of the airport where
> they were guaranteed to be slow, I don't think that by itself should
> result in a liability suit.
>
> I don't want to be held liable for expectations of service unless I
> specifically contracted to provide those services. Did the EAA
> provide a written guarantee to provide this pilot a certain response
> time in the case of an accident? Probably not. So these implied
> expectations are bull hockey.
>
> -J
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
>
>> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>>
>>
>> LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote:
>>> The end result is the guy
>>> killed himself, and his family does not deserve anything
>>> regardless of
>>> what happened, everything else is fodder.
>>
>>
>> You know, if it should happen tomorrow that we find out the last
>> 1,000 main wing spars sent out by Van's were built improperly and
>> with substandard material, there'll be at least 1,000 builders on
>> this board who won't be posting, "whoops, my fault." (g)
>>
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Collins
>> St. Paul, Minn.
>> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88391#88391
>>
>>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Bob,
I'll contribute also. I tried sending you the offer off line but my
emails to you bounced back. Your spam/garbage blocker must be very
intuitive and recognized me immediately.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
//Nope water should not be used, rather AFFF, this is what we were
trained to use on all class B fires. Good catch another thing I noticed
was that they said the first people to arrive had fire extinguisher that
were too small and ran out, so that might be part of it.
Maybe, although I took from the reading (and I well be making my own set
of assumptions), that they were mostly just plain folks, other aircraft
owners with extinguishers in their planes etc. In fact, as I read it, I
thought, "wow, there were some real heroes who were first on scene
trying to get the guy out of a burning wreck, who had the presence of
mind to remember they had those extinguishers and were able to quickly
get them."
The other thing that I found interesting in the NTSB report was that the
plane only got up 70-100 feet before it crashed.
//I too would be willing to chip in some money to get copies of the
actual proceedings. Do you want to talk to the person who volunteered to
get the info for us and just tell me what I owe you for my half.
I'm going to send an e-mail to the clerk today and find out what the
best way for getting them is. There's no way I can afford to get all
the paper in this case at a buck a page, so I have to kind of cherrypick
through the list and figure out what can provide the most bang for
the....ummm... Buck.
Bob
Do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Florida Surtax on Aviation Insurance |
Listers,
I recently received quotes for renewal of my aircraft insurance. The
insurance company was careful to note that the premium is the same as
last year but "Effective January 2007 the State of Florida is applying
a surcharge of 3% to assist The Florida Hurricane Catatrophe Fund". This
was the first that I heard of a surtax on aviation insurance. It is a
very subtle, underhanded way to affect a small segment of the population
who has only a small voice. How about trying to apply it to automobile
insurance, gasoline, milk, bottled water etc?
Be ready Florida aircraft owners for your insurance renewal!!!
Richard Dudley
RV-6A flying
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
And the lawyers brought this case to some very dumb jurors at christmas
time, I bet the statemant " her husband won't be home for the holidays"
came up sometime during the trial and those jurors ate it up.........
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "N395V" <n395v@hughes.net> wrote:
Bob Collins wrote:
> Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will re
sult
> in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have anything to
worry
> about.
>
> But you knew that, Milt. You knew that.
>
> Do not archive
>
> --
Bob,
You are correct, I knew that and do not mean to belittle your opinion. I
know from your many posts and the hotline you are an honest open minded
individual and would be that way on a jury.
My point is that you are a rarity and most jurors bring a strong bias to
the jury room. Doesn't matter what the charge from the judge is when th
e door is closed the jury does as it pleases.
I am a prime example, were I on the that jury I would enter the court wi
th a mindset of there is no way the eaa or first responders are gonna ge
t burnt and I am certain there would be one or more in the room who subs
cribe to the deep pocket theory. I think at best the outcome of a trial
is slightly biased in the favor of fact and strongly biased in favor of
raw emotion, sympathy for surviving family, and prejudice.
I believe this is supported by the 2 extremes of responses to this threa
d.
do not archive
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P>And the lawyers brought this case to some very dumb jurors at c
hristmas time, I bet the statemant " her husband won't be home for the h
olidays" came up sometime during the trial and those jurors ate it up...
......</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "N395V" <n395v@hughes.net> wrote:<BR
>--> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" 
;<n395v@hughes.net><BR><BR><BR>Bob Collins wrote:<BR>>
; Well the point was that people who&
nbsp;are worrying that the award will resu
lt<BR>> in the end of the airshow
in Arlington probably don't have anything
to worry<BR>> about.<BR>> <BR>> But yo
u knew that, Milt. You knew that. <BR
>> <BR>> Do not archive<BR>> <BR>>&
nbsp;--<BR><BR><BR>Bob,<BR><BR>You are correct, I kn
ew that and do not mean to belittle&n
bsp;your opinion. I know from your many&nb
sp;posts and the hotline you are an h
onest open minded individual and would be&
nbsp;that way on a jury.<BR><BR>My point i
s that you are a rarity and most 
;jurors bring a strong bias to the ju
ry room. Doesn't matter what the charge&nb
sp;from the judge is when the door is
closed the jury does as it pleases.<
BR><BR>I am a prime example, were I o
n the that jury I would enter the&nbs
p;court with a mindset of there is no
way the eaa or first responders are&
nbsp;gonna get burnt and I am certain 
;there would be one or more in the&nb
sp;room who subscribe to the deep pocket&n
bsp;theory. I think at best the outcome&nb
sp;of a trial is slightly biased in&
nbsp;the favor of fact and strongly biased
in favor of raw emotion, sympathy fo
r surviving family, and prejudice.<BR><BR>I bel
ieve this is supported by the 2 extre
mes of responses to this thread.<BR><BR>do 
;not archive<BR><BR>--------<BR>Milt<BR>N395V<BR>F1 Rocket<BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR>Read this topic online here:<BR><BR>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596<BR><BR><BR><BR
========================
sp; - The RV-Li
sp;the many List utilities such as the&nbs
========================
========================
sp; - NEW MATRO
ent now also available via the Web Fo
========================
=============<BR></P>
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: RV Crash,, reverse action |
I've seen this stated as fact thta the problem was the aircraft controls
were hindered by the fact the seat belt was left looped around the right
stick. There was a witness who said when it was on the ground he saw it that
way, but stated thta he doesn't remember seeing the elevator in the up
position on taxi out. The NTSB noted that but also said, "During the
investigation, the right control stick was inspected to determine if any
evidence could be found that would indicate the pilot had left the right
seat belt looped around the stick. Although there were other places in the
cockpit where portions of burned or melted seatbelt material was found, no
such indications were seen on the right control stick. In addition, there
were no gouges, scrapes, scarring or any other indication consistent with
seatbelt buckle interference/contact on the front of the stick."
As near as I can tell, there's nothing in the findings of the NTSB that said
this is why the airplane crash. So I'm curious as to where that is stated
since several messages have indicated as fact that this is what happened.
ANd thanks!
//Heck, any jury can and will find for the spectators
This also being stated as fact, apparently no case involving a jury has ever
been found in favor of the defense. Really?
Do not archive
Bob
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action
If the legal system operates on this bizarre nature then I suggest switching
rolls. For all the people who witnessed this crash caused by the widows
husband ,because of his lack of preflight to assure the controls were "FREE
AND CORRECT", alot of poor people are mentally scarred for life after seeing
a human crash right in front of their eyes and burn to death. The widow now
has 6 million bucks to pay out to those with mental anguish. Heck, any jury
can and will find for the spectators. Now, I didn't see this horrible
accident but have lost sleep lately because of reading about it on various
places. I am now suffering from the pilots actions and I should file suit
too.. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander........
do not archive, I think
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details.
I understand that. I even share some of those concerns (except for the
"regardless of the details" part. Those tend to matter to me). But, then
again, I didn't have a loved one burn to death, either.
Like I said, however, it depends on whether the guy could have survived his
injuries. I haven't seen the autopsy report. I presume the jury did.
If the guy could have lived but died because the agency responsible for
emergency response was unreasonably slow (again, I'm not saying they were.
I'm not saying they weren't), then that would seem to me there's something
to deliberate over.
As for you not thinking the EMS should be held liable, I fully appreciate
that stance which, I assume, is formed via some deliberation in your own
mind. But I actually DO respect the jury process becuase juries are made up
of people like you and me and everyone else we know and while it's fun to
say "juries are stupid," I don't think you're stupid, and I don't think I'm
stupid.
I don't know, by the way, if you've ever sat in a courtroom as a judge
instructs a jury but it's an excrutiatingly long process and very intricate
with specifics about what can and what can't be considered.
I don't know what the judge's instructions were in this case but, again, I
DO know that there's more to this story than what ANN , in its
less-than-objective fashion, decided to write. And, of course, they weren't
there either.
As someone said earlier, just as we demand that people hold off judging what
happened in any plane crash until the facts are known, so too is it an
appropriate instruction here.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88428#88428
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
//I personally believe there's something wrong with the system when a person
*can't* assume liability for his own actions.
OK, one more time, this case isn't and wasn't about a pilot not accepting
liability for his own actions. Or believing that if he were to be in a plane
crash, it would be someone else's ... And only someone else's ... Fault.
This pilot died IN a crashed plane. But according to the autopsy, he died
because he burned to death in that plane.
The question is: was there an assumption of responsibility on the part of
the EAA and the fly-in to provide reasonable emergency services, and did
those emergency services provide a reasonable response?
The court and the jury-- and the legal system you don't like -- is NOT
saying that the guy did not die as a result of being in a plane that crashed
or that he didn't assume the risks of that flight.
Where do all the responsibilities lie? You say it lies with the pilot. "Hey,
he went flying and he knew the risks." Well, that may well be true. But why
is it not also legitimate to say to the EAA, "you put on an air show, and
you know the risks of putting on an air show?"
I'll go back to the e-coli outbreak. All of the following could be
considered legitimate. "You shouldn't have eaten at Taco John's. You knew
the risks." "You shouldn't have opened a restaurant. You knew the risks."
"You shouldn't have been in the lettuce distribution business. You knew the
risks." "You should haven't been in the lettuce growing business. You knew
the risks." "You should have washed the cow sh*t off the lettuce before you
sold it. You knew the risks." "You shouldn't have gone in the cattle
raising business. You knew the risks."
We're at an age now where there is a level of dependence upon one another.
Things are such now that the actions of one could impact others.
It was a lot easier when Ma and Pa Kettle lived off the land, but that isn't
the case anymore.
Just as most plane crashes occur because of a series of errors, rather than
just one, people die now for the same reasons.
//Unfortunately, our legal system doesn't agree with me.
Fortunately, our legal system recognizes the criminal nature of the actions
the person who started the thread suggested as an alternative.
Do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
You know, I'd LOVE to get on a jury sometime. I've been called into the pool
twice (it's like sitting around in homeroom) but never got on a case. So I
don't know.
I have covered some court cases but most of those were criminal murder cases
with all sorts of twists and no happy endings and I remember sitting there
thinking, "man, I'm glad I'm not on THAT jury." But looking back, I think
most of the time they got it right and they sure took a long time to do so.
Bias? Yes, I think most members of a jury have a bias. But then again, I'm
one of the few people in the media who acknowledges that media members have
a bias because humans are a biased lot and we're all human. I think the key
here is whether people in a jury recognize the importance of their setting
aside their initial bias -- while still bringing their expertise to the
process (if they have any) -- to engage in an intelligent process. Whether
they do or don't, I think, varies.
Product liability and liability of actions is a very emotional subject. Like
same-sex marriage, politicians spew all about it when they're running for
office because it's simply told and nobody's ever going to check any facts.
Then they get elected and suddenly they don't talk about it anymore, I
think, because they know it's a little more complex situation than a
campaign stuff speech. Most issues are.
I tend to think that just about everything that can be made to sound simple
actually has more to it.
As you've probably figured out, I think this case has more to it. For
reasons we all agree on, I think, it just HAS to. Because on the surface, it
doesn't make a lot of sense.
Bob
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
Bob Collins wrote:
> Well the point was that people who are worrying that the award will
> result in the end of the airshow in Arlington probably don't have
> anything to worry about.
>
> But you knew that, Milt. You knew that.
>
> Do not archive
>
> --
Bob,
You are correct, I knew that and do not mean to belittle your opinion. I
know from your many posts and the hotline you are an honest open minded
individual and would be that way on a jury.
My point is that you are a rarity and most jurors bring a strong bias to the
jury room. Doesn't matter what the charge from the judge is when the door is
closed the jury does as it pleases.
I am a prime example, were I on the that jury I would enter the court with a
mindset of there is no way the eaa or first responders are gonna get burnt
and I am certain there would be one or more in the room who subscribe to the
deep pocket theory. I think at best the outcome of a trial is slightly
biased in the favor of fact and strongly biased in favor of raw emotion,
sympathy for surviving family, and prejudice.
I believe this is supported by the 2 extremes of responses to this thread.
do not archive
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
I say we stick the lawyers and jurors in an airplane filled with McDonalds
coffee and tell them to go fly and teach themselves how to do rolls at low
altitude.
Could we please get back to technical discussions, and get the S/N ratio
back down to where it ought to be?
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/07/24/SP1
62388.DTL
Read it and weep! Someone mentioned requiring every participating pilot to sign
a waiver form. According to this judgement, that still could be null and voided.
Quote:
A key issue is a standard disclaimer form that participants sign on guided trips
or when accessing private property. The intent of the form is to relieve the
host guide or outdoors company of legal risk should a participant have an
accident of his or her own creation.
Yet in last week's decision, the judge did not recognize the disclaimer form. He
ruled that the injured party was not responsible for her own safety.
start to accept that responsibility for our actions. If a person is skiing and
runs into a tree, and dies from the cold before the ski patrol arrives, the ski
resort is not responsible, read the back of the lift ticket, skiing is an
inherently dangerous sport...yadda, yadda, yadda. Just like flying, if you take
off with the
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: RV Crash,, reverse action |
To put a fine turn to this, the NTSB did not find evidence to indicate
that the seat belt was looped on the stick and this was the cause of the
accident. However, this does not make the converse true-that because
the NTSB did not find conclusive evidence that the stick was secured,
doesn't mean that it didn't happen and was the promixate cause of the
crash. What's disappointing is they looked for burned, melted belt
material, nicks scrapes, scarring, yet they ere no reference to whether
the passenger seat belt was found in a buckled condition. That, in
itself would not be conclusive evidence that the stick was secured by
the seat belt, but it would be consistent with that being the case.
Even though the NTSB couldn't find strong proof (or any proof, for that
matter) certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen that way. In fact, the
direct observation, behavior of the pilot (in a hurry), somewhat
disorientated (went to the wrong runway/intersection) and the flight
profile are all totally consistent with the stick being secured by the
passenger seat belt. Probably rises to the 'preponderance of the
evidence' to support this hypothesis.
But, as Bob has repeatedly pointed out, the secured stick may well have
been the cause of the accident, but that has no bearing (apparently) on
what the jury considered and why they awarded money. That action was
based on post-impact actions or inactions.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action
I've seen this stated as fact thta the problem was the aircraft controls
were hindered by the fact the seat belt was left looped around the right
stick. There was a witness who said when it was on the ground he saw it
that way, but stated thta he doesn't remember seeing the elevator in the
up position on taxi out. The NTSB noted that but also said, "During the
investigation, the right control stick was inspected to determine if any
evidence could be found that would indicate the pilot had left the right
seat belt looped around the stick. Although there were other places in
the cockpit where portions of burned or melted seatbelt material was
found, no such indications were seen on the right control stick. In
addition, there were no gouges, scrapes, scarring or any other
indication consistent with seatbelt buckle interference/contact on the
front of the stick."
As near as I can tell, there's nothing in the findings of the NTSB that
said this is why the airplane crash. So I'm curious as to where that is
stated since several messages have indicated as fact that this is what
happened.
ANd thanks!
//Heck, any jury can and will find for the spectators
This also being stated as fact, apparently no case involving a jury has
ever been found in favor of the defense. Really?
Do not archive
Bob
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action
If the legal system operates on this bizarre nature then I suggest
switching rolls. For all the people who witnessed this crash caused by
the widows husband ,because of his lack of preflight to assure the
controls were "FREE AND CORRECT", alot of poor people are mentally
scarred for life after seeing a human crash right in front of their eyes
and burn to death. The widow now has 6 million bucks to pay out to those
with mental anguish. Heck, any jury can and will find for the
spectators. Now, I didn't see this horrible accident but have lost sleep
lately because of reading about it on various places. I am now suffering
from the pilots actions and I should file suit too.. Whats good for the
goose is good for the gander........
do not archive, I think
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> Bob, I think the problem is that most of us don't think the EMS team
> should be held responsible for being slow, and certainly not to this
> amount, regardless of the details.
I understand that. I even share some of those concerns (except for the
"regardless of the details" part. Those tend to matter to me). But, then
again, I didn't have a loved one burn to death, either.
Like I said, however, it depends on whether the guy could have survived
his injuries. I haven't seen the autopsy report. I presume the jury did.
If the guy could have lived but died because the agency responsible for
emergency response was unreasonably slow (again, I'm not saying they
were. I'm not saying they weren't), then that would seem to me there's
something to deliberate over.
As for you not thinking the EMS should be held liable, I fully
appreciate that stance which, I assume, is formed via some deliberation
in your own mind. But I actually DO respect the jury process becuase
juries are made up of people like you and me and everyone else we know
and while it's fun to say "juries are stupid," I don't think you're
stupid, and I don't think I'm stupid.
I don't know, by the way, if you've ever sat in a courtroom as a judge
instructs a jury but it's an excrutiatingly long process and very
intricate with specifics about what can and what can't be considered.
I don't know what the judge's instructions were in this case but, again,
I DO know that there's more to this story than what ANN , in its
less-than-objective fashion, decided to write. And, of course, they
weren't there either.
As someone said earlier, just as we demand that people hold off judging
what happened in any plane crash until the facts are known, so too is it
an appropriate instruction here.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88428#88428
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Te operators of horse riding events have apparently gotten a disclaimer
defense to actually work here in Florida. They got the legal protection
they deserve because they did the necessary work, paid the appropriate
lobbyists, hired the right lawyers, whatever.
We (EAA), on the other hand, were not smart enough to do this.
I think we got the results we deserved. So pay-up sucker B-)
Tracy
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Jae Chang<mailto:jc-matronics_rv@jline.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
<jc-matronics_rv@jline.com<mailto:jc-matronics_rv@jline.com>>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/
07/24/SP1<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/arc
hive/2002/07/24/SP1>
62388.DTL
Read it and weep! Someone mentioned requiring every participating
pilot to sign
a waiver form. According to this judgement, that still could be null
and voided.
Quote:
A key issue is a standard disclaimer form that participants sign on
guided trips
or when accessing private property. The intent of the form is to
relieve the
host guide or outdoors company of legal risk should a participant have
an
accident of his or her own creation.
Yet in last week's decision, the judge did not recognize the
disclaimer form. He
ruled that the injured party was not responsible for her own safety.
<LloydDR@wernerco.com<mailto:LloydDR@wernerco.com>>
start to accept that responsibility for our actions. If a person is
skiing and
runs into a tree, and dies from the cold before the ski patrol
arrives, the ski
resort is not responsible, read the back of the lift ticket, skiing is
an
inherently dangerous sport...yadda, yadda, yadda. Just like flying, if
you take
off with the
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV-List>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: high fuel pressure readings |
Steve,
I experienced the same problem in my 7A (ECI 0-360, MA 4.5 carb, and Dynon EMS
engine monitor). In my case I saw fluctuating fuel pressure going back and forth
from 7 to 15 psi on two flights. Bart at AeroSport Power believes that it
is highly unlikely that the engine driven fuel pump would be producing that much
pressure (which is why I didn't have a problem flying the plane again). My
conversation with Dynon suggested it was likely a sensor problem. The problem
has not come back but interestingly, my monitor shows 1 psi of pressure when
there is no pressure on the system. I suspect I will be replacing the sensor
in the near future.
Joel Haynes
7A N557XW 70 hours
Bozeman
>Today my Fuel Pressure was consistently reading above 7.5 psi and at one
>point was reading 9.1. This was at cruise with the Facet pump off at 45 F.
>Additionally, it was erratic sometimes as low as 4.5.>
>
>Im flying behind an XP 0-360, MA 4.5 carburetor and EIS 4000 with standard
>plumbing. Some time ago I was having low pressure problems and changed the
>sensor which seemed to fix the problem. Im thinking the sensor is just
>reading to high.
>
>It doesnt seem like the engine pump could actually be producing too much
>pressure. If it were, does anyone know if there is any potential harm to
>the carburetor?
>
>Has anyone else experienced similar problems? What should the Fuel
>Pressure actually be? Has anyone got any ideas?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Steve Glasgow-Cappy
>N123SG RV-8
>Cappy's Toy - 400 Hours
________________________________________________________________________
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: RV Crash,, reverse action |
MessagePerhaps the surviving family would be happier had the pilot
survived his error and lived with 3rd degree burns all over the body.
Pain and around the clock care would be the result. As I see it, It
could be a blessing that the pilot died and the family relieved of the
burden. I remember the movie, "English Patient" where the survivor
pilot asked to be over drugged to stop his life after his crash and
sufferings in recovery. do not archive
----- Original Message -----
But, as Bob has repeatedly pointed out, the secured stick may well
have been the cause of the accident, but that has no bearing
(apparently) on what the jury considered and why they awarded money.
That action was based on post-impact actions or inactions.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: RV Crash,, reverse action |
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Chuck Jensen wrote:
> ...yet they ere no reference to whether the passenger seat belt was found in
> a buckled condition. That, in itself would not be conclusive evidence that
> the stick was secured by the seat belt, but it would be consistent with that
> being the case.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my unoccupied belts are always fastened when
I take off. (And so are the occuped ones!)
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
On Thu Jan 18 12:07:05 2007, Bob J. wrote :
>I say we stick the lawyers and jurors in an airplane filled with McDonalds
>coffee and tell them to go fly and teach themselves how to do rolls at low
>altitude.
This leaves one question ... what primer should they be spraying on each
other during their roll entry?
-- Dwight
for goodness sakes, do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: RV Crash,, reverse action |
AND, the only belt I ever fasten around the stick is my own. I assume I
would have a difficult time getting in if I didn't undo it first.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tedd McHenry
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:35 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RV Crash,, reverse action
>
>
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Chuck Jensen wrote:
> > ...yet they ere no reference to whether the passenger seat belt was
> found in
> > a buckled condition. That, in itself would not be conclusive evidence
> that
> > the stick was secured by the seat belt, but it would be consistent with
> that
> > being the case.
>
> I can't speak for anyone else, but my unoccupied belts are always fastened
> when
> I take off. (And so are the occuped ones!)
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
<This pilot died IN a crashed plane. But according to
the autopsy, he died because he burned to death in
that plane.>
And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental and
that he COULD die in the plane.
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Exactly! The plane was experimental. That should be
enough said! He built it and died in it. Don't blame
anyone else! The EAA for fly-in's has no more
responsibility to bring in extra forces than does a
city that has 500 landings and departures a day.
That's like saying we are going to have a city parade,
line the streets with fire trucks...???? We might have
too many people on the road.
Do not Archive
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
<We're at an age now where there is a level of
dependence upon one another. Things are such now that
the actions of one could impact others.>
We are in an age where people do not want to take
responsibility for their own actions.
It's very sad! I'm in favor... FAA new ruling: Build
an experimental aircraft... you're on your own. Kill
yourself, blame yourself put in writing before you can
acquire your airworthy certificate.
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
Want to start your own business?
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
This has been an interesting topic because it can affect all of us through
the insurance premiums we, and the organizations we belong to, pay, so I
thought I would add my $.02 to the discussion.
I agree with Bob Collins in many ways. He is not really taking sides in
this argument, only saying that we should have all the information before we
condemn one side or the other. Most of us not having been witnesses to the
accident and not having been at the trial, we really don't know what
actually happened and why the jury made the decision they did. That being
said, I'll make a few comments.
First, I would like to say that my sympathies are with the family of the
pilot, as I'm sure that most of ours are. If they are reading this
discussion, I hope they realize that we are not attacking them, but rather
the system that allowed this to occur and the unethical lawyers that take
advantage of that system. In fact, I would bet that the family did not
initiate the suit, but were probably approached by a lawyer that convinced
them the even though pilot error caused the crash and resulting death, that
they could sue someone with big insurance policies and collect some money.
That lawyer probably didn't care one bit about the family, only his ability
to get his cut of the award and is probably complaining that he couldn't get
a bigger cut. This is a big problem with our society today. The attitude
of sue everyone in sight regardless of their involvement and/or
responsibility and hope that a jury with sympathize with them and award
money, on the basis that it will be covered by insurance and the defendant
isn't really paying themselves, is a bad thing. Of course these same jurors
will complain bitterly when their insurance premiums go up. I believe that
our judicial systems work pretty well for criminal trials, but in civil
trials like this one, all common sense disappears.
I would also like to propose another argument. Although I don't know many
of the facts, I assume the airport at which this occured is a public use
airport, that the pilot could have flown into at any time. I also assume
that the pilot was not participating in the airshow itself and had just
flown in as a spectator. I also assume that he did not take off during the
waivered period. If these assumptions are correct, then I don't see how
EAA, as the airshow sponser, could be responsible, as they do not control
the airport during non-waivered time, and have no responsibility for airport
operations and services outside of the time the airshow is actually going
on. For all practical purposes, the pilot was simply taking off as he
probably has from many airports. In fact, I don't see how the EAA could be
responsible for providing any airport operation services to non-participants
of the airshow. It could be argued that the airport operator should have
provided better emergency services, but there are very few GA airports that
have the onsite professional emergency services like those that the suit
claims should have been there. If this airshow operated in a manner similar
to the one that I have worked at, then outside of the waivered period,
normal airport operations were in effect as far a flying activities are
concerned. At best,the airshow sponser would be responsible for ensuring
that spectators were kept away from the flight line and could not interfere
with the normal airport operations. If the EAA had inhibited the ability of
the rescue operations that are normally available at that airport to reach
the plane in a reasonable time, then I could see some responsibility on the
EAA's part, but that does not seem to be the case.
This accident was a tragedy, like all accidents that result in injury or
death, but we need to stand up and take responsibility for ourselves and our
actions, and stop trying to blame everyone around us for the results of our
own actions.
Paul Trotter
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
For what it's worth ... Don didn't build the airplane; he bought it a couple
of weeks before the accident.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Reiley
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
Exactly! The plane was experimental. That should be
enough said! He built it and died in it. Don't blame
anyone else! The EAA for fly-in's has no more
responsibility to bring in extra forces than does a
city that has 500 landings and departures a day.
That's like saying we are going to have a city parade,
line the streets with fire trucks...???? We might have
too many people on the road.
Do not Archive
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
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Message 37
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| Subject: | Appeal: Testify for EAA etc... |
I'm sending in my letter to testify for the EAA
defense on their appeal of this decision. I would hope
many will follow and show your support. We all are
experimental builders! Be responsible. We don't need
to blame the EAA or fire department for not saving lives.
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
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Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
<" He built it and died in it.">
Sorry I SHOULD have said built it or bought it.
do not archive
--- Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
> Exactly! The plane was experimental. That should be
> enough said! He built it and died in it. Don't blame
> anyone else! The EAA for fly-in's has no more
> responsibility to bring in extra forces than does a
> city that has 500 landings and departures a day.
> That's like saying we are going to have a city
> parade,
> line the streets with fire trucks...???? We might
> have
> too many people on the road.
>
> Do not Archive
>
>
>
>
>
> Darrell Reiley
> RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
> N622DR Reserved
> N469RV Reserved
>
> CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures
> list.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
Want to start your own business?
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
DO NOT ARCHIVE
He did NOT build the airplane.
Those of us that were on this list flying our airplanes when this happened,
had a discussion about the airplane having been just purchased and the new
owner's desire for TRANSITION TRAINING.
I remember this accident. I waited at Harvey Airport with my airplane and an
RV-4 that was painted like a John Deere Tractor. The pilot of the RV-4 wore
a John Deere hat while he flew. We were just minutes late arriving at
Arlington. A few minutes sooner and we would have landed right before the
airport closed for the air show. I saw video of the accident scene from a
news hello while eating dinner at Harvey. The RV-4 I was flying with did not
have a transponder and we used my transponder operating as a FLIGHT of two
under the Bravo airspace.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,976 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
----Original Message Follows----
From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental and
that he COULD die in the plane.
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
He did not build it, rather he bought it and only had been flying it for
two weeks...
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Reiley
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
<lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Exactly! The plane was experimental. That should be
enough said! He built it and died in it. Don't blame
anyone else! The EAA for fly-in's has no more
responsibility to bring in extra forces than does a
city that has 500 landings and departures a day.
That's like saying we are going to have a city parade,
line the streets with fire trucks...???? We might have
too many people on the road.
Do not Archive
Darrell Reiley
RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR Reserved
N469RV Reserved
CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
You know, I was reading the ComAir report today. One of the pilots, in
violation of the bottle to throttle rule, had a couple of drinks at dinner
the night before. Then, in their sleepiness, they got on the wrong runway
and ...well, you know the rest. The tower apparently wasn't paying
attention, the pilots obviously didn't know what they were doing (and also
violated the sterile cockpit rule) and the people in the back who burned
death in the wreckage? Screw 'em. They knew a plane crash was a possibility.
Bottoms up, boys!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Reiley
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
--> <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
<This pilot died IN a crashed plane. But according to the autopsy, he died
because he burned to death in that plane.>
And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental and that he COULD die in
the plane.
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
ptrotter wrote:
> I also assume
> that the pilot was not participating in the airshow itself and had just
> flown in as a spectator. I also assume that he did not take off during the
> waivered period. If these assumptions are correct, then I don't see how
> EAA, as the airshow sponser, could be responsible, as they do not control
> the airport during non-waivered time, and have no responsibility for airport
> operations and services outside of the time the airshow is actually going
> on. For all practical purposes, the pilot was simply taking off as he
> probably has from many airports. In fact, I don't see how the EAA could be
> responsible for providing any airport operation services to non-participants
> of the airshow.
Quite possibly the most cogent argument I've heard... anywhere.... ever.... about
anything.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88753#88753
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
I truly hope the family and the lawyers are reading
this thread. It's truly a sad day for them. For the
scum bag lawyers that promote this type of suit, I
have no sympathy! Their day will come. For the family,
I'm saddened for their loss and deeply saddened they
could bring themselves down to this level judicial
abuse.
Darrell
--- Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@verizon.net> wrote:
> <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
>
> Well said Mark, and trust me the family and lawyers
> are reading this. I
> was there, but well not comment on what I did or did
> not see because
> I have had lawyers call me from reading this list
> before. As I recall
> some of our own RV family tried desperately
> to help Don but were unable to because of the fire,
> It was a very sad
> day and for anyone that was not a witness to be
> commenting on what happened
> without knowing the facts is total BS. IMO
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
>
>
> Mark Sletten wrote:
>
> > This argument continues to chase its own tail
> >
> > Tim Bryan said:
> >
> > I have a hard time believing that any of it will
> sway me to believe
> > someone else is responsible for his accident. Even
> if the emergencies
> > services didn't show up at all. Had they caused
> the crash and then
> > didn't respond accordingly to attempt to make
> their wrong right it
> > would be different. But They didn't. Instead they
> showed up and made
> > every attempt short of getting someone else hurt
> to do what they are
> > trained to do.
> >
> > What Bob has asked is How do you know? How do
> you know what the
> > responding EMS personnel did Tim? Were you there?
> If you were, are you
> > a trained EMS responder? Do you know what the
> standard is for response
> > time and actions?
> >
> > Those who continue to offer facts to this list
> to further their
> > arguments have obviously lost the ability to
> discern the difference
> > between fact and opinion. Most have only read
> about the story here on
> > this list, yet speak as though there is no chance
> their view of the
> > situation might be skewed. I remember my old
> gaffer telling me as a
> > young lad (kindergarten I believe) There are at
> least two sides to
> > every story.
> >
> > Beyond my stupefaction with that, I find it
> personally distressing
> > that members of a community with which I identify
> myself are calling
> > for violent action against a family who used to be
> a member of that
> > community even if the call to violence is only
> figurative. Lets
> > assume for a moment (shouldnt be much of a
> problem considering all
> > the assumption going around) that there IS more to
> this case than
> > weve read here on the list, and those calling to
> hang the family
> > are doing so from a position of ignorance. What if
> a member of that
> > family were reading your vitriol? I wince
> (literally, not
> > figuratively) at that thought
> >
> > Aside from that, the closed minds and
> self-righteousness only gives
> > those you abhor (greed lawyers) further
> ammunition. Im sure any
> > competent lawyer reading through this thread would
> laugh at how
> > stupid we are
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> > Mark Sletten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Get your own web address.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo wrote:
>
> We are in an age where people do not want to take
> responsibility for their own actions.
>
I had a guy once tell me exactly this, and then lapsed into a rant about how much
child support he was paying. I still shake my head when I think about it.
I finally said to him, "Ben, you took vows to be married in sickness and health,
and then you agreed to have a child together, and then -- and it doesn't
matter why, an action is an action -- and you not only didn't take responsibility
by not providing a family for him on a fulltime basis, you're whining about
how much you have to pay in order to support him and the woman you left behind
to raise him."
The irony of it all was funny. But that's about all that was.
So maybe you're right. Nobody accepts responsibility for their actions.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88756#88756
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Appeal: Testify for EAA etc... |
lifeofreiley2003(at)yahoo wrote:
> I'm sending in my letter to testify for the EAA
> defense on their appeal of this decision. I would hope
> many will follow and show your support. We all are
> experimental builders! Be responsible. We don't need
> to blame the EAA or fire department for not saving lives.
>
Sign me up. But given that an appeal of a court decision has to be based on matters
of material fact that were in evidence in the trial phase, what exactly are
we offering to testify about since none of us know anything about what was
in the trial phase?
Why not just send them some money to help pay their lawyers?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88758#88758
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Maybe the families should sue the FAA tower employees,
the fire department for a slow response, the diner
that served the pilots the night before too...?
Darrell
--- Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
> You know, I was reading the ComAir report today. One
> of the pilots, in
> violation of the bottle to throttle rule, had a
> couple of drinks at dinner
> the night before. Then, in their sleepiness, they
> got on the wrong runway
> and ...well, you know the rest. The tower apparently
> wasn't paying
> attention, the pilots obviously didn't know what
> they were doing (and also
> violated the sterile cockpit rule) and the people in
> the back who burned
> death in the wreckage? Screw 'em. They knew a plane
> crash was a possibility.
>
> Bottoms up, boys!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Darrell Reiley
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:52 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
>
> --> <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
>
> <This pilot died IN a crashed plane. But according
> to the autopsy, he died
> because he burned to death in that plane.>
>
> And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental
> and that he COULD die in
> the plane.
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
Gary that woulds be Jerry Stephens in the John Deer RV-4 :-) He is from
Independance, OR
Jerry
do not archive
RV6 Flyer wrote:
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> He did NOT build the airplane.
>
> Those of us that were on this list flying our airplanes when this
> happened, had a discussion about the airplane having been just
> purchased and the new owner's desire for TRANSITION TRAINING.
>
> I remember this accident. I waited at Harvey Airport with my airplane
> and an RV-4 that was painted like a John Deere Tractor. The pilot of
> the RV-4 wore a John Deere hat while he flew. We were just minutes
> late arriving at Arlington. A few minutes sooner and we would have
> landed right before the airport closed for the air show. I saw video
> of the accident scene from a news hello while eating dinner at Harvey.
> The RV-4 I was flying with did not have a transponder and we used my
> transponder operating as a FLIGHT of two under the Bravo airspace.
>
>
> Gary A. Sobek
> "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
> 1,976 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing
> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:52:29 -0800 (PST)
>
> <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
>
> And he built the plane KNOWING it was experimental and
> that he COULD die in the plane.
>
>
> Darrell Reiley
> RV7A QB Slider "Reiley Rocket"
> N622DR Reserved
> N469RV Reserved
>
> CenTex_RV_Aircraft-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count.
> http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Why is it such a bad thing |
In a message dated 1/18/2007 9:11:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rocketbob@gmail.com writes:
Could we please get back to technical discussions, and get the S/N ratio
back down to where it ought to be?
============================
I think Bob meant to get it UP where it should be, right (signal greater
than noise)?
Wow, this post actually added to the noise... Doh, never mind!
Do not archive.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 830hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
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