---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/20/07: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (Dana Overall) 2. 04:32 AM - Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. (Dana Overall) 3. 05:36 AM - Re: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (Bill Boyd) 4. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot (Mark Sletten) 5. 06:41 AM - Re: Basis wiring HELP (Charles Reiche) 6. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot (LarryRobertHelming) 7. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot (Dan) 8. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot (Bob Collins) 9. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Ron Lee) 10. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 11. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot (Kevin Horton) 12. 09:23 AM - Re: Basis wiring HELP (Bill Boyd) 13. 10:22 AM - Re: Basis wiring HELP (Richard E. Tasker) 14. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot (Jerry Springer) 15. 10:49 AM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Dana Overall) 16. 11:02 AM - Garmin 396 XM Reception (Jeff Linebaugh) 17. 11:50 AM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Frank Stringham) 18. 12:00 PM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Charles Reiche) 19. 12:25 PM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Richard E. Tasker) 20. 01:08 PM - Re: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer (Trevor) 21. 02:35 PM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 22. 02:44 PM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 23. 03:16 PM - Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III () 24. 03:48 PM - Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (Ron Lee) 25. 04:11 PM - Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (Rob Prior) 26. 04:28 PM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Dana Overall) 27. 04:50 PM - Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (Garry) 28. 04:53 PM - Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (Larry Pardue) 29. 09:11 PM - Re: GRRRRRINNNNNNN !!!! N696WG First Flight !! (Charles Rowbotham) 30. 10:57 PM - Fw: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer (Trevor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:02 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges Need some electrical help here gang....................remember, I am the world's worst at understanding electric "stuff".........don't ask me, electrical just flat out doesn't click between my ears, possibly a blown fuse from my college days. Anyway, I have not attached any of the various instrument HI/LOW (two wires each)light intensity. I don't want to go with a control knob but was thinking a ON/OFF/ON for down is low intensity middle standard and up as high intensity. OK, simple question............how in the heck do I make the magic work????? Gotta get this last stuff done this weekend, forward deck/windscreen has got to be completed this time next week. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: "Bill Boyd" >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges >Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:36:17 -0500 > > >Several others have already done so; I have a great sufficiency of >schematics now. Thank you. > >do not archive > >On 1/19/07, Douglas Kohser wrote: >> >>Finally something other than this waste of bandwidth....sorry did I say >>that >>out loud....I have them somewhere, I will try to find them this weekend, >>scan them and send you a copy in an email.... >> >>I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel >>gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find >>it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the >>senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are >>made. >> >>Confession time: I have these gauges in my plane now, but have lost >>the old wiring diagram I drew at the time (which would have been an >>embarassment if it still existed, like the rat's nest behind my >>present panel). I need the info to design relevant parts of the >>diagram for the new electrical system. >> >>Thanks, >> >>-Bill B. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:19 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >From: "Dana Overall" >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 06:59:07 -0500 > > >Need some electrical help here gang....................remember, I am the >world's worst at understanding electric "stuff".........don't ask me, >electrical just flat out doesn't click between my ears, possibly a blown >fuse from my college days. > >Anyway, I have not attached any of the various instrument HI/LOW (two wires >each)light intensity. I don't want to go with a control knob but was >thinking a ON/OFF/ON for down is low intensity middle standard and up as >high intensity. OK, simple question............how in the heck do I make >the magic work????? > >Gotta get this last stuff done this weekend, forward deck/windscreen has >got to be completed this time next week. > Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Get Hilary Duffs homepage with her photos, music, and more. http://celebrities.live.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:08 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges Dana- I used to have such a setup in my panel; it got removed later to cannibalize the switch for an antenna switching application and because I never flew at night and never used the feature. The trick was to use a 3-position switch to insert zero, a few, or a bunch of diodes in series with the light circuits, the # needed for each intensity level being determined by eyeball testing on the bench. Each diode (I think I used 1N4002's) gives about 0.6 volt drop and the drops add linearly with higher numbers of diodes in a string. They must all face the same way, with the striped end toward the negative or ground end of the circuit. One peculiarity I recall was that I ended up with the order being MED/LOW/HIGH, and I think I used a DP3T switch, which is a kind of oddball. Doubtless others will have ideas to toss in here. As I said, my original schematic for the RV electrical system has been lost. -Bill B / Stormy On 1/20/07, Dana Overall wrote: > > Need some electrical help here gang....................remember, I am the > world's worst at understanding electric "stuff".........don't ask me, > electrical just flat out doesn't click between my ears, possibly a blown > fuse from my college days. > > Anyway, I have not attached any of the various instrument HI/LOW (two wires > each)light intensity. I don't want to go with a control knob but was > thinking a ON/OFF/ON for down is low intensity middle standard and up as > high intensity. OK, simple question............how in the heck do I make > the magic work????? > > Gotta get this last stuff done this weekend, forward deck/windscreen has got > to be completed this time next week. > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > > >From: "Bill Boyd" > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: RV-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges > >Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:36:17 -0500 > > > > > >Several others have already done so; I have a great sufficiency of > >schematics now. Thank you. > > > >do not archive > > > >On 1/19/07, Douglas Kohser wrote: > >> > >>Finally something other than this waste of bandwidth....sorry did I say > >>that > >>out loud....I have them somewhere, I will try to find them this weekend, > >>scan them and send you a copy in an email.... > >> > >>I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel > >>gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find > >>it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the > >>senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are > >>made. > >> > >>Confession time: I have these gauges in my plane now, but have lost > >>the old wiring diagram I drew at the time (which would have been an > >>embarassment if it still existed, like the rat's nest behind my > >>present panel). I need the info to design relevant parts of the > >>diagram for the new electrical system. > >> > >>Thanks, > >> > >>-Bill B. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:18 AM PST US From: "Mark Sletten" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot Bob (?) said: =93You know, this is really pissing me off. Based upon the facts we do know, it is hard to justify the $10.5 [million] award.=94 No one is trying to justify a $10.5 million award Bob, we are all (well, at least some of us anyway) just trying to understand it=85 Bob added: =93The people who are defending the award do so by saying we do not know the facts to determine if the award is excessive.=94 I assume you are counting me as one who is =93defending=94 this award (since I don=92t agree with your bombastic statements?), but the fact is, I=92m as troubled as everyone on this list who has expressed (appropriately or inappropriately) his or her outrage. This situation reminds me of a couple of people in a crowd having a bad case of flatulence outside in a strong wind ' no one in the crowd notices just how powerful the odor is (thank god, who wants to deal with that!) because it=92s attenuated by the wind. Some of you seem to think Bob Collins and I are trying to shovel a load of bulls#!t. Folks, all I=92m suggesting is we need to calm the winds of rhetoric and emotion here long enough to smell the=85 roses, yeah, that=92s it! Watching the way some have reacted with the wailing and gnashing of teeth brings to mind an old Air Force clich=E9: When we had a particularly excitable individual at the controls ' one given to rash action ' he or she was said to be =93all thrust with no vector.=94 We need to calm down, take a deep breath (grin) and THINK! This is like any other emergency situation=85 we either lose complete control and start flipping switches, pushing buttons and yankin=92 and bankin=92, or we do as my old primary flight instructor taught me, we wind our collective clocks. You see, he told me no matter what happens in an airplane while the wings are level, the airspeed is under control and the nose isn=92t pointed at something hard, it=92s going to fly just fine. In those (just unusual, not emergency) situations, it does no good to take action until you KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS! And that=92s where winding your clock comes in. All the planes back then had mechanical clocks ' you had to wind =91em up. He taught me winding the clock gives one something to do with that urge to *DO SOMETHING,* and provides time to slow down and THINK before taking further action. I learned thoughtless action in unusual situations can (and often does) just make the situation worse=85 I assure you, our little figurative plane flying through the vastness of the United States jurisprudence system is still wings level, although with all the wind blowing around here I=92m not so sure about the airspeed or direction=85 Please, please, PLEASE=85 everyone just LISTEN! For those of you who say the EAA shouldn=92t have to pay $10.5 million to the family (and lawyers) of an individual who dies in a crash at an EAA fly-in ' I AGREE! ***UNLESS THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY!*** There is no question the unusual size of the award under the (not fully understood at this time) circumstances of this situation warrants further investigation. I urge all of you in the strongest possible terms: If you are not helping in investigating the situation to find out ALL THE FACTS, then please tone down the fury ' maybe wind your watch, or pound some rivets=85 work off some stress! Further wailing and gnashing of teeth will only add to the confusion and dismay taking us all farther from understanding. Larry (I assume, no signature) said: =93Interesting, the NTSB report identifies the airport as S88 instead of AWO. Anyone know why that would be?=94 Here is a link to the NTSB report. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19356 &ntsbno=SEA99FA105&akey=1 I searched thru it and found no reference to =93S88=94 or =93Skykomish State Airport.=94 At the very top of the report it states the aircraft =93=85impacted the terrain during takeoff from Arlington Municipal Airport, Arlington, Washington.=94 I=92m not sure where you got S88 from Larry, but it does illustrate an interesting point. How many of you after reading Larry=92s post actually went to the NTSB report to confirm what Larry wrote, or just assumed the report had an error? Sometimes it=92s easier to discount something someone says than it is to discount something somebody writes ' seeing it in print tends to make it more believable somehow. Please think about the point I=92m trying to make the next time you consider this case and believe you have all the =93facts.=94 Mark Sletten ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:34 AM PST US From: Charles Reiche Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP Dana, The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have to know the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go and change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it changes your total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights when hooked to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to a power supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts when the airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of lighting load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the basic resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights half dim, you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. So you need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so roughly 30 Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your panel in a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers sell. http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off till the last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system will make your night flying much more enjoyable. An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat machine under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly making heat when you have the lights off. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can be tied together and controlled with one knob. I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to variations in overall brightness. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php This one has an adjustable master following system where you can have those bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. Hope some of this helps. Charles Reiche ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >>Need some electrical help here gang....................remember, I am the >>world's worst at understanding electric "stuff".........don't ask me, >>electrical just flat out doesn't click between my ears, possibly a blown >>fuse from my college days. >> >>Anyway, I have not attached any of the various instrument HI/LOW (two >>wires each)light intensity. I don't want to go with a control knob but >>was thinking a ON/OFF/ON for down is low intensity middle standard and up >>as high intensity. OK, simple question............how in the heck do I >>make the magic work????? >> >>Gotta get this last stuff done this weekend, forward deck/windscreen has >>got to be completed this time next week. >> > Dana Overall ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:15 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot Mark, try searching this data base. I think you will understand what I am saying about AWO and S88. Look at airport identifier in top section of the report. http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/search_ntsb.cfm Larry in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Sletten To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:40 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot Larry (I assume, no signature) said: "Interesting, the NTSB report identifies the airport as S88 instead of AWO. Anyone know why that would be?" Here is a link to the NTSB report. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19356&ntsbno=SEA99 FA105&akey=1 I searched thru it and found no reference to "S88" or "Skykomish State Airport." At the very top of the report it states the aircraft ".impacted the terrain during takeoff from Arlington Municipal Airport, Arlington, Washington." I'm not sure where you got S88 from Larry, but it does illustrate an interesting point. How many of you after reading Larry's post actually went to the NTSB report to confirm what Larry wrote, or just assumed the report had an error? Sometimes it's easier to discount something someone says than it is to discount something somebody writes - seeing it in print tends to make it more believable somehow. Please think about the point I'm trying to make the next time you consider this case and believe you have all the "facts." Mark Sletten ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:16 AM PST US From: Dan Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot Put on you ski's and go to S88 Skykomish http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/aviation/WebCam/Skykomish.htm LarryRobertHelming wrote: st1\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } Mark, try searching this data base. I think you will understand what I am saying about AWO and S88. Look at airport identifier in top section of the report. http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/search_ntsb.cfm Larry in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Sletten To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:40 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot Larry (I assume, no signature) said: Interesting, the NTSB report identifies the airport as S88 instead of AWO. Anyone know why that would be? Here is a link to the NTSB report. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 001212X19356&ntsbno=SEA99FA105&akey=1 I searched thru it and found no reference to S88 or Skykomish State Airport. At the very top of the report it states the aircraft impacted the terrain during takeoff from Arlington Municipal Airport, Arlington, Washington. Im not sure where you got S88 from Larry, but it does illustrate an interesting point. How many of you after reading Larrys post actually went to the NTSB report to confirm what Larry wrote, or just assumed the report had an error? Sometimes its easier to discount something someone says than it is to discount something somebody writes seeing it in print tends to make it more believable somehow. Please think about the point Im trying to make the next time you consider this case and believe you have all the facts. Mark Sletten ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:20 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot // I assure you, our little figurative plane flying through the vastness of the United States jurisprudence system is still wings level, although with all the wind blowing around here I'm not so sure about the airspeed or direction. To extend the airplane analogy further: Anybody read Aftermath in Flying Magazine this month? It was really good. On a transatlantic flight a plane developed a leak in one of the fuel tanks, but the crew was sure it was their flight computer. They wer eso sure, theys kipped the checklists and balanced the tanks, thereby putting fuel from the good tank into the bad tank and....hastening their potential demise. All the while, they never -- ever -- stepped back to think, "what else could this be." The right engine eventually flamed out and they decided to be safer rather than sorry and land at an alternative strip. Apparently the second engine then flamed out. They made it down OK, just then starting to think that maybe it wasn't the computer. And, of course, it wasn't. Mark is right, the only advice that's been dispensed here is for us to act like the smart pilots were are: don't let emotions cloud your process of accumulating information. It's not like you'll lose your opportunity to "string 'em up" if it turns out that what you think really IS what happened. You'll still be able to do it. But by firing away now, you increase the liklihood that you'll run out of fuel early. Nobody's got anything to lose by knowing more. So let's know more. We're all friends here. We all have the same love for aviation, and fly-ins, and freedoms and all of that. Let's not forget that. Bob (the "other" bob, I think) do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:28 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M >I'm really going to regret wading into this but in the interest of >accuracy, from my reading of the matter (not via ANN would was not very >professional in its coverage, imho)suit wasn't over the fact the plane >crashed. The suit was about the contention the pilot survived the crash >but died because the responders the EAA contracted with to provide >services, took more than minutes to arrive. The NTSB report mentioned arrival within a minute or so. Hardly seems excessive to me. Then you have a low-time pilot with minimal time in an RV, in a hurry, and likely had a seat belt around the co-pilot stick. Frankly from what I have read it appears pure and simple pilot error. Then someone has to find deep pockets when at the end of the day if the pilot screwed up then just accept it and move on. Quit going after someone else. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:31 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M //The NTSB report mentioned arrival within a minute or so. Hardly seems excessive to me. Me neither. And I believe there was a deposition entered on the report, but we don't know much more than that. The report didn't indicate where that figure came form and as someone posted in this thread much earlier who was there, he indicated it couldn't have been much more than 5 minutes. I would presume, certainly, that this was discussed at trial. //Then you have a low-time pilot with minimal time in an RV, in a hurry, and likely had a seat belt around the co-pilot stick. Frankly from what I have read it appears pure and simple pilot error. Me too. But the case wasn't about what caused an airplane to crash. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:11 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot That is an AOPA database that is spitting out the wrong airport, not an NTSB database. Kevin Horton do not archive On 20 Jan 2007, at 10:37, LarryRobertHelming wrote: > Mark, try searching this data base. I think you will understand > what I am saying about AWO and S88. Look at airport identifier in > top section of the report. > > http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/search_ntsb.cfm > > Larry in Indiana > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Sletten > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:40 AM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family > of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of > pilot > > > Larry (I assume, no signature) said: > > > Interesting, the NTSB report identifies the airport as S88 instead > of AWO. Anyone know why that would be? Here is a link to the NTSB > report. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp? > ev_id 001212X19356&ntsbno=SEA99FA105&akey=1 I searched thru it > and found no reference to S88 or Skykomish State Airport. At > the very top of the report it states the aircraft impacted the > terrain during takeoff from Arlington Municipal Airport, Arlington, > Washington. Im not sure where you got S88 from Larry, but it does > illustrate an interesting point. How many of you after reading > Larrys post actually went to the NTSB report to confirm what Larry > wrote, or just assumed the report had an error? Sometimes its > easier to discount something someone says than it is to discount > something somebody writes seeing it in print tends to make it > more believable somehow. Please think about the point Im trying to > make the next time you consider this case and believe you have all > the facts. Mark Sletten ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:30 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP A diode differs from a resistor in this application; the forward drop in voltage across a diode is virtually constant regardless of current draw. As long as diode current ratings are followed, there will not be excessive heating of the diode in this application (similar to the wattage rating of a resistor, but you have to know the final current ahead of time to size one of those.) Just more to think about. -Bill On 1/20/07, Charles Reiche wrote: > > Dana, > The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have to know > the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go and > change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it changes your > total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR > equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights when hooked > to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to a power > supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts when the > airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of lighting > load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the basic > resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights half dim, > you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. So you > need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so roughly 30 > Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your panel in > a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching > Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers sell. > http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 > > I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off till the > last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system will make > your night flying much more enjoyable. > > An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat machine > under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php > put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly making heat > when you have the lights off. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php > This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can be tied > together and controlled with one knob. > I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to variations > in overall brightness. > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php > This one has an adjustable master following system where you can have those > bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. > > Hope some of this helps. > > Charles Reiche > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dana Overall" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM > Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. > > >>Need some electrical help here gang....................remember, I am the > >>world's worst at understanding electric "stuff".........don't ask me, > >>electrical just flat out doesn't click between my ears, possibly a blown > >>fuse from my college days. > >> > >>Anyway, I have not attached any of the various instrument HI/LOW (two > >>wires each)light intensity. I don't want to go with a control knob but > >>was thinking a ON/OFF/ON for down is low intensity middle standard and up > >>as high intensity. OK, simple question............how in the heck do I > >>make the magic work????? > >> > >>Gotta get this last stuff done this weekend, forward deck/windscreen has > >>got to be completed this time next week. > >> > > Dana Overall > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:10 AM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP Actually, for the same voltage drop and the same current draw there WILL be exactly the same heating of the diodes, albeit spread over all the diodes used vs the one resistor used. Diodes do have the advantage you pointed out of having a relatively constant voltage drop up to their rated current. Dick Tasker Bill Boyd wrote: > > A diode differs from a resistor in this application; the forward drop > in voltage across a diode is virtually constant regardless of current > draw. As long as diode current ratings are followed, there will not > be excessive heating of the diode in this application (similar to the > wattage rating of a resistor, but you have to know the final current > ahead of time to size one of those.) > > Just more to think about. > > -Bill > > On 1/20/07, Charles Reiche wrote: > >> >> Dana, >> The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have to >> know >> the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go and >> change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it >> changes your >> total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR >> equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights when >> hooked >> to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to a >> power >> supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts >> when the >> airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of lighting >> load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the basic >> resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights half >> dim, >> you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. So >> you >> need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so >> roughly 30 >> Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your >> panel in >> a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching >> Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers >> sell. >> http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 >> >> I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off >> till the >> last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system >> will make >> your night flying much more enjoyable. >> >> An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat >> machine >> under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php >> put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly making >> heat >> when you have the lights off. >> >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php >> This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can be >> tied >> together and controlled with one knob. >> I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to >> variations >> in overall brightness. >> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php >> This one has an adjustable master following system where you can have >> those >> bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. >> >> Hope some of this helps. >> >> Charles Reiche >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dana Overall" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM >> Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >> >> >>Need some electrical help here gang....................remember, I >> am the >> >>world's worst at understanding electric "stuff".........don't ask me, >> >>electrical just flat out doesn't click between my ears, possibly a >> blown >> >>fuse from my college days. >> >> >> >>Anyway, I have not attached any of the various instrument HI/LOW (two >> >>wires each)light intensity. I don't want to go with a control knob >> but >> >>was thinking a ON/OFF/ON for down is low intensity middle standard >> and up >> >>as high intensity. OK, simple question............how in the heck >> do I >> >>make the magic work????? >> >> >> >>Gotta get this last stuff done this weekend, forward >> deck/windscreen has >> >>got to be completed this time next week. >> >> >> > Dana Overall >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:59 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot AWO use to be S88 about 7 or 8 years ago. Jerry do not archive Kevin Horton wrote: > > That is an AOPA database that is spitting out the wrong airport, not > an NTSB database. > > Kevin Horton > do not archive > > On 20 Jan 2007, at 10:37, LarryRobertHelming wrote: > >> Mark, try searching this data base. I think you will understand >> what I am saying about AWO and S88. Look at airport identifier in >> top section of the report. >> >> http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/search_ntsb.cfm >> >> Larry in Indiana >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Mark Sletten >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:40 AM >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of >> pilot awarded $10Re: Why is it such a bad thing - was family of pilot >> >> >> >> Larry (I assume, no signature) said: >> >> >> >> Interesting, the NTSB report identifies the airport as S88 instead >> of AWO. Anyone know why that would be? Here is a link to the NTSB >> report. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp? >> ev_id 001212X19356&ntsbno=SEA99FA105&akey=1 I searched thru it and >> found no reference to S88 or Skykomish State Airport. At the >> very top of the report it states the aircraft impacted the terrain >> during takeoff from Arlington Municipal Airport, Arlington, >> Washington. Im not sure where you got S88 from Larry, but it does >> illustrate an interesting point. How many of you after reading >> Larrys post actually went to the NTSB report to confirm what Larry >> wrote, or just assumed the report had an error? Sometimes its >> easier to discount something someone says than it is to discount >> something somebody writes seeing it in print tends to make it more >> believable somehow. Please think about the point Im trying to make >> the next time you consider this case and believe you have all the >> facts. Mark Sletten > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:49 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP Diode, Smiodes, Iods..........................................how can I do this, or can I do this, with the simplest of installs? Can I go one switch up for high, down for low. Each yellow wire is labeled HI one one LO on the other. Is it even possible. I was just looking for a way to use one of the switches I have left over to and possibly tie all the yellow HI's together, all the LO's together and Shazam.........either high intensity or low intensity.............with no middle ground. It's OK if you call me electrically stupid, I'll answer to that:-), just don't talk diodes, smiodes and iods. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: "Richard E. Tasker" >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:20:38 -0500 > > >Actually, for the same voltage drop and the same current draw there WILL be >exactly the same heating of the diodes, albeit spread over all the diodes >used vs the one resistor used. > >Diodes do have the advantage you pointed out of having a relatively >constant voltage drop up to their rated current. > >Dick Tasker > >Bill Boyd wrote: > >> >>A diode differs from a resistor in this application; the forward drop >>in voltage across a diode is virtually constant regardless of current >>draw. As long as diode current ratings are followed, there will not >>be excessive heating of the diode in this application (similar to the >>wattage rating of a resistor, but you have to know the final current >>ahead of time to size one of those.) >> >>Just more to think about. >> >>-Bill >> >>On 1/20/07, Charles Reiche wrote: >> >>> >>>Dana, >>>The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have to >>>know >>>the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go and >>>change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it changes >>>your >>>total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR >>>equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights when >>>hooked >>>to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to a >>>power >>>supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts when >>>the >>>airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of lighting >>>load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the basic >>>resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights half dim, >>>you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. So you >>>need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so roughly >>>30 >>>Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your panel >>>in >>>a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching >>>Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers sell. >>>http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 >>> >>>I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off till >>>the >>>last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system will >>>make >>>your night flying much more enjoyable. >>> >>>An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat >>>machine >>>under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... >>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php >>>put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly making heat >>>when you have the lights off. >>> >>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php >>>This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can be >>>tied >>>together and controlled with one knob. >>>I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to >>>variations >>>in overall brightness. >>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php >>>This one has an adjustable master following system where you can have >>>those >>>bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. >>> >>>Hope some of this helps. >>> >>>Charles Reiche >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Dana Overall" >>>To: >>>Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM >>>Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >>> _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:16 AM PST US From: "Jeff Linebaugh" Subject: RV-List: Garmin 396 XM Reception I am having trouble with XM radio reception on my 396 and wonder if anyone has a fix I am running an extension (mini-d connections) so that I can place the antenna behind the back seaters head on the deck. It also makes the antenna easily removable so that I can use it in the car, etc Problem: with the extension, XM music clips off every second or so like I have poor receptioneven though I am showing full signal strength. Without the extension, it still shows full strength, but music comes in fine. With or without the extension, I can receive data..metars, tafs, etc Anybody experienced this or have a solution? Thanks! Jeff Linebaugh jefflinebaugh@earthlink.net F1 Rocket #33 N240KT Memphis, TN. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:01 AM PST US From: "Frank Stringham" Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP Dana Man do I here Ya.....When I got into the electrical it was like ....well.....a new language. Then it hit me. As a chemistry teacher I would tell my student learn the language and you will learn the science. Soooooooooo.....off I went: Read Aeroelecrtric by Bob, asked many ???????? ( got shot down because my question usually didn't make sense...must be speaking the wrong language), check out alot of builders web sites, persisted until I finally realized that, unlike the building of the airframe, there was no plan to follow. So was off to decided on the mission of the plane which would dictate the electrical plan. From that point it slowly got me to the point of the very specific......which wire, where to wire, which size, diode or not, DPDT, DPST, SPST Switch, RELAY OR NOT and on and on...............With all this said it has been a great learning experience.....even when Bob gave me a taste of my own teaching Medicine. I am also sure that your local EAA will have an electrically correct individual to help you through the rough learning / building spots. Dana if you feel inclined give me a email and maybe I can be of some help off list. Build on and enjoy Frank RV7A wiring/fiberglass/FWF stuff .............. >From: "Dana Overall" >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:49:07 -0500 > > >Diode, Smiodes, Iods..........................................how can I do >this, or can I do this, with the simplest of installs? Can I go one switch >up for high, down for low. Each yellow wire is labeled HI one one LO on >the other. Is it even possible. I was just looking for a way to use one >of the switches I have left over to and possibly tie all the yellow HI's >together, all the LO's together and Shazam.........either high intensity or >low intensity.............with no middle ground. > >It's OK if you call me electrically stupid, I'll answer to that:-), just >don't talk diodes, smiodes and iods. > > >Dana Overall >Richmond, KY i39 >RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" >O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 >http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg >http://rvflying.tripod.com >do not archive > > >>From: "Richard E. Tasker" >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP >>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:20:38 -0500 >> >> >> >>Actually, for the same voltage drop and the same current draw there WILL >>be exactly the same heating of the diodes, albeit spread over all the >>diodes used vs the one resistor used. >> >>Diodes do have the advantage you pointed out of having a relatively >>constant voltage drop up to their rated current. >> >>Dick Tasker >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>> >>>A diode differs from a resistor in this application; the forward drop >>>in voltage across a diode is virtually constant regardless of current >>>draw. As long as diode current ratings are followed, there will not >>>be excessive heating of the diode in this application (similar to the >>>wattage rating of a resistor, but you have to know the final current >>>ahead of time to size one of those.) >>> >>>Just more to think about. >>> >>>-Bill >>> >>>On 1/20/07, Charles Reiche wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Dana, >>>>The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have to >>>>know >>>>the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go and >>>>change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it changes >>>>your >>>>total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR >>>>equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights when >>>>hooked >>>>to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to a >>>>power >>>>supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts when >>>>the >>>>airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of lighting >>>>load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the basic >>>>resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights half >>>>dim, >>>>you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. So >>>>you >>>>need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so roughly >>>>30 >>>>Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your panel >>>>in >>>>a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching >>>>Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers >>>>sell. >>>>http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 >>>> >>>>I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off till >>>>the >>>>last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system will >>>>make >>>>your night flying much more enjoyable. >>>> >>>>An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat >>>>machine >>>>under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... >>>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php >>>>put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly making >>>>heat >>>>when you have the lights off. >>>> >>>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php >>>>This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can be >>>>tied >>>>together and controlled with one knob. >>>>I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to >>>>variations >>>>in overall brightness. >>>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php >>>>This one has an adjustable master following system where you can have >>>>those >>>>bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. >>>> >>>>Hope some of this helps. >>>> >>>>Charles Reiche >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Dana Overall" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM >>>>Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >>>> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live >Spaces > > _________________________________________________________________ Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into something more. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_gratitude&FORM=WLMTAG ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:49 PM PST US From: Charles Reiche Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP The two wires are power and ground HI (power) and LO (ground) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 1:49 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP > > Diode, Smiodes, Iods..........................................how can I do > this, or can I do this, with the simplest of installs? Can I go one > switch up for high, down for low. Each yellow wire is labeled HI one one > LO on the other. Is it even possible. I was just looking for a way to > use one of the switches I have left over to and possibly tie all the > yellow HI's together, all the LO's together and Shazam.........either high > intensity or low intensity.............with no middle ground. > > It's OK if you call me electrically stupid, I'll answer to that:-), just > don't talk diodes, smiodes and iods. > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > >>From: "Richard E. Tasker" >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP >>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:20:38 -0500 >> >> >> >>Actually, for the same voltage drop and the same current draw there WILL >>be exactly the same heating of the diodes, albeit spread over all the >>diodes used vs the one resistor used. >> >>Diodes do have the advantage you pointed out of having a relatively >>constant voltage drop up to their rated current. >> >>Dick Tasker >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>> >>>A diode differs from a resistor in this application; the forward drop >>>in voltage across a diode is virtually constant regardless of current >>>draw. As long as diode current ratings are followed, there will not >>>be excessive heating of the diode in this application (similar to the >>>wattage rating of a resistor, but you have to know the final current >>>ahead of time to size one of those.) >>> >>>Just more to think about. >>> >>>-Bill >>> >>>On 1/20/07, Charles Reiche wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>Dana, >>>>The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have to >>>>know >>>>the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go and >>>>change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it changes >>>>your >>>>total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR >>>>equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights when >>>>hooked >>>>to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to a >>>>power >>>>supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts when >>>>the >>>>airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of lighting >>>>load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the basic >>>>resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights half >>>>dim, >>>>you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. So >>>>you >>>>need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so roughly >>>>30 >>>>Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your panel >>>>in >>>>a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching >>>>Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers >>>>sell. >>>>http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 >>>> >>>>I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off till >>>>the >>>>last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system will >>>>make >>>>your night flying much more enjoyable. >>>> >>>>An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat >>>>machine >>>>under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... >>>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php >>>>put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly making >>>>heat >>>>when you have the lights off. >>>> >>>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php >>>>This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can be >>>>tied >>>>together and controlled with one knob. >>>>I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to >>>>variations >>>>in overall brightness. >>>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php >>>>This one has an adjustable master following system where you can have >>>>those >>>>bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. >>>> >>>>Hope some of this helps. >>>> >>>>Charles Reiche >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Dana Overall" >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM >>>>Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >>>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live > Spaces > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:22 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP You can probably do what you want. However, unless you want someone to size the components (that have to dissipate the wasted energy) large enough for the most outrageously lighted panel, you have to give us some idea what the total current required for the lighting you want to control. In addition, the setting that might make one instrument just right when set to the low setting might make another too bright or too dim. The string of diodes could be a solution for this, but as noted, we need some idea how much current you will be controlling. Sorry that there is not a "one size fits all" solution, but everyone's panel is different. Dick Tasker Dana Overall wrote: > > Diode, Smiodes, Iods..........................................how can > I do this, or can I do this, with the simplest of installs? Can I go > one switch up for high, down for low. Each yellow wire is labeled HI > one one LO on the other. Is it even possible. I was just looking for > a way to use one of the switches I have left over to and possibly tie > all the yellow HI's together, all the LO's together and > Shazam.........either high intensity or low intensity.............with > no middle ground. > > It's OK if you call me electrically stupid, I'll answer to that:-), > just don't talk diodes, smiodes and iods. > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > >> From: "Richard E. Tasker" >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP >> Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:20:38 -0500 >> >> >> >> Actually, for the same voltage drop and the same current draw there >> WILL be exactly the same heating of the diodes, albeit spread over >> all the diodes used vs the one resistor used. >> >> Diodes do have the advantage you pointed out of having a relatively >> constant voltage drop up to their rated current. >> >> Dick Tasker >> >> Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>> >>> A diode differs from a resistor in this application; the forward drop >>> in voltage across a diode is virtually constant regardless of current >>> draw. As long as diode current ratings are followed, there will not >>> be excessive heating of the diode in this application (similar to the >>> wattage rating of a resistor, but you have to know the final current >>> ahead of time to size one of those.) >>> >>> Just more to think about. >>> >>> -Bill >>> >>> On 1/20/07, Charles Reiche wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dana, >>>> The main problem with Bright/Dim kind of circuits is that you have >>>> to know >>>> the over all current flow for all the lights per circuit. If you go >>>> and >>>> change something in the future of one set of bulbs burn out, it >>>> changes your >>>> total brightness on the dim setting. You do this with the basic V=IR >>>> equation, you have to know the total current flow of your lights >>>> when hooked >>>> to your power source. Here is an example. I hook all my lights to >>>> a power >>>> supply that can give me my "running" voltage of about 13.85 volts >>>> when the >>>> airplane is running, with an ammeter inline I measure 2 amps of >>>> lighting >>>> load..... 13.85=2xI Solving for I you get 6.925 Ohms. This is the >>>> basic >>>> resistance of all your lights put together. To make the lights >>>> half dim, >>>> you need to make the resistance twice that of what you start with. >>>> So you >>>> need a 7 ohm resistor that is rated for, P=IE..... P= 2x13.85 so >>>> roughly 30 >>>> Watts!!! Thats kind of a LARGE resistor. and its there under your >>>> panel in >>>> a small place baking away making heat. I would suggest researching >>>> Transistorized dimming circuits like the one here that EDMO dealers >>>> sell. >>>> http://www.edmo.com/index.php?module=products&func=display&prod_id=18485 >>>> >>>> >>>> I know you are pressed for time and have put all the HARD parts off >>>> till the >>>> last minute :) but I think you will find a variable dimming system >>>> will make >>>> your night flying much more enjoyable. >>>> >>>> An appropriately rated rehostat will dissapate power (again a heat >>>> machine >>>> under your panel) and something like this may be what you want... >>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rheostat.php >>>> put a on off switch ahead of this sucker so its not contantly >>>> making heat >>>> when you have the lights off. >>>> >>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lc40.php >>>> This system looks nice due to its 4 channels of 1.5A each that can >>>> be tied >>>> together and controlled with one knob. >>>> I suggest keeping radios separate from flight instruments due to >>>> variations >>>> in overall brightness. >>>> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/k11aircraft.php >>>> This one has an adjustable master following system where you can >>>> have those >>>> bright systems lag behind say the less bright flight instruments. >>>> >>>> Hope some of this helps. >>>> >>>> Charles Reiche >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Dana Overall" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:29 AM >>>> Subject: RV-List: Basis wiring HELP:-) Changed subject line, my bad. >>>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows > Live Spaces > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:03 PM PST US From: "Trevor" Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer Hi John Their name is MGL Avionics and they make the Enigma EFIS. Try contacting rianier@iafrica.com or visit their web page at www.mglavionics.co.za Trevor ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fasching To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:15 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer I am trying to recall the name of a South African maker of digital instruments. Their products were originally aimed at the ultralight sector of aviation, but they have moved more into the mainstream now. Their products and/or perhaps their name was three letters, like MDL or MGC or somesuch...neither of these are correct. I can't recall or locate the company. Any suggestions would be appreciated. ' John ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:11 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP Dick, Isn't there an electrical guru in your EAA chapter? It sounds like you could use a little hands on help there. Dan Hopper RV-7A do not archive In a message dated 1/20/2007 3:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, retasker@optonline.net writes: You can probably do what you want. However, unless you want someone to size the components (that have to dissipate the wasted energy) large enough for the most outrageously lighted panel, you have to give us some idea what the total current required for the lighting you want to control. In addition, the setting that might make one instrument just right when set to the low setting might make another too bright or too dim. The string of diodes could be a solution for this, but as noted, we need some idea how much current you will be controlling. Sorry that there is not a "one size fits all" solution, but everyone's panel is different. Dick Tasker ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:13 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP Sorry, Dick. I meant Dana, of course. Dan do not archive In a message dated 1/20/2007 5:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hopperdhh@aol.com writes: Dick, Isn't there an electrical guru in your EAA chapter? It sounds like you could use a little hands on help there. Dan Hopper RV-7A ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:58 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (LONG POST) Dear RV group: How many RV's have crashed from an inverted spin? I know inverted (death) spin, has some emotional connotation, but the fear is ignorance squelched w/ facts. I got a few responses from my How to do a Roll and Loop article, several complimentary and one just plan odd and wrong, so let me clarify a few things: Number one, acro in a RV is not F-16, Pitts or F-14 acro. I think some folks have watched top gun too much (the inverted spin scene where "Goose" dies). RV's are stable and WANT to fly right side up. I am not going to explain basic aerodynamics, but due to wing dihedral, design (NACA 23013.5) and pitch, yaw, roll controls and stability with proper CG, RV's are stable in any attitude. RV's also resist spinning unless intentionally spun. Spins: RV's don't like to even spin right side up, much less inverted. You have to hold controls aggressively and keep and keep them there to the control stops. Once you release or neutralize the controls it will stop spinning in most cases. Some RV's (power on, to the left, fully developed +3 turn stall) might need a touch of anti-spin rudder. By all means be familiar will basic stall / spin recovery. INVERTED SPIN: I have not tried it in a RV and doubt you can even do it intentionally, due to lack of elevator authority and the basic design of the plane. Again dihedral, airfoil design and CG (which is still the same inverter or right side up) makes the plane want to recover naturally in a nose down attitude right side up. The dihedral will naturally make the plane roll upright. Also to spin you need a yaw input or forces, ie rudder. Leave the rudder alone (as I said before) for beginners in rolls and loops. *G LOAD (The MAGIC of 3 Gee's) G load: IF YOU ARE PULLING 4.5 g's to do acro in a RV you are doing it wrong and its not wise. The drag (induced) is proportional to the lift coefficient. As you pull on the stick and load up the wing you increase drag, and drag gets exponentially greater. When you plot lift v drag you will see the curve gets real steep. Over 3 g's is a waste and needlessly bleeds energy (speed) and is like throwing the anchor out. Don't do it unless you want to slow down or in worst case scenario break the airframe (3.5 g's OK fine, +4 g's no not needed). *SPEED Speed for loops: Look for a loop if you want to do 200 mph and pull 6 g's, fine. However I can loop almost ANY plane at 140 mph, Cessna aerobatic for example (of course you have to dive first). It has more drag and less power and about the same weight as an RV. It can loop at 130-140 mph. Stearman? Same thing. The recommend RV loop entry speed is 140-160 mph. You can do it faster. Some guy wrote me and say he can't loop at less than 150kt (173mph) & pulling 4.5g's! OH MY GOSH, that is dangerous for a beginner's. 135-140 mph is "Va", maneuver speed. Flying closer to Va is safer. Even if you mess up and pull too hard, you will not break the plane, it will stall first. To stall is NOT DEATH. It is a normal maneuver you should have mastered as a 10-20 hour private pilot student. Now breaking the wing off? I don't have a recovery for that. Flying fast and pulling more G's is counter productive and gives less margin (structural and airspeed limits). If you pull less G's you lose (need) less speed!!! Yes you need speed for any vertical maneuver but going faster to overcome poor technique or lack of understanding is not good. RV's have low drag and great power/weight. If a Cessna C152 can do it a RV can. IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF STALLS OR NOT PROFICIENT IN ALL KINDS OF STALLS: recognizing impending stall, recovery from stalls: straight, turns, accelerated, power on climb, power off climb, with minimal loss of altitude and effort, THAN DON'T DO AEROBATICS. It does not mean you can't learn and conquer stalls but you will need an instructor, say in an Aerobat or Citabria. I thought I made that clear, but some folks have been spreading fear about stalls. I would rather a guy stall at 3,000 feet and recover than pull the wings OFF. For beginners work at lower entry speeds 140-160 mph and use 3 g's as a basic limit for your maneuvers. At high speed and g's you are very close to the structural and speed limits, especially if you mess up and get nose down with power on. Some folks are worried about stalls and inverted spins. How many inverted stall spin accidents have you heard of in RV's? Pitts special? (several) RV's? (none); Now may be that its the pilot, plane or may be the Pitts is flown in aggressive acro more? Pitts can have symmetric airfoil wings and they have very little roll stability and no dihedral. You are more likely to get killed from a stall or stall-spin in the traffic pattern (from pilot miss handling the controls and not maintaining airspeed) than doing a loop at a safe altitude. Now I am not saying everyone loop your RV. Truth be told there are some pilots that may be should be flying at all, straight and level much less trying acro. Please read what I wrote before and all the cautions and caveats. IF YOU STALL INVERTED, THE RV WILL NOT SNAP INTO AN INVERTED SPIN. In fact if you do nothing the nose will just drop and it will just roll/dish-out and end up the way it was designed to fly, nose down probably flying wings level straight ahead or in a bank / spiral. A simple recovery is all that is needed. Even in you stalled upside down, and pushed the stick forward and added rudder it would probably snap roll. If you just release the controls it would fly again. You really have to put in PRO stall and PRO spin (yaw) controls to get a RV to stall and spin. However even a stall from inverted with rudder kicked in the spin would likely be up-right, not inverted. It would take talent to do an inverted spin in a RV. *FLOATING? (i.e., less than +1g to plus side of zero-g) The fear of having less than 1 g over the top a loop, so called FLOATING, from one guy that wrote me, who likes to enter a loop at very high speeds and G's scares me. A FULL ONE G is ridiculous at the top of a loop. Since gravity is a negative 1 g at that point, than you need to still be accelerating down @ +2 g's vertical pitch. That is a very tight loop and really what I call a "Whiffer- Dale" (any maneuver that is really not a recognized aerobatic maneuver) a kind of a vertical climb with a hook on the end and a dive and level off, not a loop. Lots of g's and not necessary or elegant. Than he said some stuff about a perfect loop is not for beginners. I have no idea what he is talking about. One my technique is far from the perfect loop, just a safe loop. Second I have been flying for over 20 years and doing acro for at least 15 years, I still can't do a perfect loop. The RV fly's fine on +1 g, +1/2 g, +1/10th g. You do not need inverted systems to fly around "light" in the seat. With an inverted systems great, but the RV design (wing, dihedral, CG) likes to fly right side-up. Intentional inverted maneuver in most planes are hard, especially the RV. Now planes with no dihedral and symmetric airfoils are easy to fly upside down. That is not the RV. I have several RV buddies with inverted oil/fuel. When they are upside down and the wing needs a lot of neg AOA to fly, very nose up attitude in level -1g inverted flight. RV's don't like to fly negative G's. Also the stall speed of a RV at acro weight is what? 50-55 mph at 1g. At 1/2 g stall speed will be way lower. At zero g's it will be basically nothing. YOU WILL NOT STALL,SPIN AND DIE IF YOU LOOP AT 140-160 mph, IF YOU DON'T PULL TOO MANY G's and BLEED ALL YOUR ENERGY OFF (as some recommend). RV's also because of the great wing don't do snap rolls well because the wing wants to fly. You have to put stall strips on it, which raises the stall speed. RV's are good basic fun acro planes but not serious hard core acro planes. The actual problem with RV's is they acro TOO easily and make pilots think they are better than they are. Many acro planes are not as forgiving, demanding more skill and technique to properly loop and roll around the sky. Basic acro the RV is the best there is. Good Luck, again because of people who wrote me and said scary things who think they know, is the reason I wrote the article. As I stated you need to be competent and confident in you airmanship before undergoing acro. However acro is not inherently dangerous. The plane fly's fine in all attitudes. However professional airshow and competition pilots that are dedicated to acro do crash from time to time. Flying has risk folks. Do ignore the alarmist's. However if you have GOOD basic skills and follow GOOD basic common sense than acro in RV's is very safe, but of course NOTHING is without risk. I suggest you find an OLD back issue of the RVator and Van's two or three part article on doing ACRO. It basically was from the same point of view, you should get dual BUT I know you are going to do it, so at least have some advice. The problem is getting dual anything in RV's, much less dual acro in a RV. You can go up in a Pitts and have a guy loop, roll and show off and it will not help you fly the RV. The RV is not a Pitts. It would probably be better to go up in a Cessna Aerobat or Citabria and learn some basics if you can't get RV dual. Also many RV's are too heavy to for dual acro. *Mo Knowledge: Books to read: "Roll Around a Point", by Duane Cole "The Conquest of Lines and Symmetry", by Duane Cole "Aerobatics", by Neil Williams "Aerobatics Today", by Bob O'Dell "Flight Unlimited", by Eric Mueller "The Basic Aerobatic Manual", by Bill Kershner "Stalls, Spins and Safety", by Sammy Mason Check out some of the aerobatic clubs like EAA's IAC http://www.iac.org/ "A person who teaches himself to do aerobatics has a fool for an instructor". Author unknown However I know some are going to do it any way. I also know there are a few out there that are doing and have been doing acro who don't have a clue and they scare me. I hope the info is help full. *Mo Practice The information I presented is basic outline. There is NO FAR that prohibits you from doing aerobatics with out an endorsement or training as long as you are off the airways and not too low or close to persons, places and things. Of course that does not mean you will not get the catch all of reckless and careless operation. I personally am a very conservative pilot, former CFI-II-MEI with 1000's of hours of dual given and now airline pilot. I have looped and rolled many planes (not airliners of course) and its fun. Just use common sense and KNOW THY SELF. Training is BEST but many have lost their acro virginity solo. *G TOLERANCE To get use to G's I highly recommend 70 degree banks is about 3 g' (level turn). 60 degree banks are only 2 g's. You will need to add LOTS of POWER for 70 degrees. Again respect the structural and speed limits and do not enter at higher than Va. Va is your safe speed. Also the g's will acclimate you. Some people go cationic or freeze when they see the sky and earth flip or their body experiences more than 1.5 g's. *Hate Mail (not you Bob) One guy wrote me and scolded me about how dare I teach or post on the web how to do aerobatics, "beginners don't have the touch or feel". That is either pure ignorance or pure ego, like its so difficult and only he can do it. Please again read all my previous caveats. I recommend not doing acro with passengers, and do acro over remote areas. Why? Well if you kill your self than you will not hurt anyone else. Hate to be grim but Aerobatic accidents are from many reasons but mostly pilots doing them 1) too low and 2) with out knowledge and 3) no skill. I have addressed all three. RULES: safe altitude, respect limits SKILL: Practice the prerequisites to acro maneuver's KNOWLEDGE: Read and ask questions YOU CAN LEARN RULES, YOU CAN GET KNOWLEDGE, BUT THE ACRO SKILL WILL NOT COME UNLESS YOU PRACTICE AND ACTUALLY DO IT. YOU CAN'T LEARN WITH OUT EXPERIENCING IT. Many times the practice or initial acro experience comes solo and is self taught, but if I explain how to do an ILS instrument approach I don't expect a VFR pilot to launch into solid IMC. Same with aerobatics, however a skilled private pilot should have the basic tool kit of skills and knowledge to understand aerobatics. You never can have enough info, skill or knowledge, but there is a first time for every thing. Ideally when you lose your roll or loop virginity you have some one there to back you up. Can I roll on takeoff. Yes, but I don't because I know my chance of death go up 10,000 fold. Do I fall out of acro maneuvers? Yes but not basic ones like I described previously, aileron roll and loop. Respect the airplane's limits and your personal limits. Acro is not for everyone. Fly Safe, George ATP B73/75/76, CFI-II-MEI, RV-4, RV-7 --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:47 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III >Number one, acro in a RV is not F-16, Pitts or F-14 >acro. I think some folks have watched top gun too >much (the inverted spin scene where "Goose" dies). > My recollection is that scene was a flameout which caused a flat spin. They were upright and Goose hit the canopy before it was totally gone. Ron Lee Do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:40 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III On 15:47 2007-01-20 Ron Lee wrote: > > Number one, acro in a RV is not F-16, Pitts or F-14 > > acro. I think some folks have watched top gun too > > much (the inverted spin scene where "Goose" dies). > > My recollection is that scene was a flameout which caused a flat spin. > They were upright and Goose hit the canopy before it was totally gone. Perhaps the confusion was from the way the scene was filmed, not the way it was supposed to have happened. The scene was filmed by an aerobatic pilot flying an inverted flat spin. My recollection is that the pilot did not recover from that spin, due to unexpected changes in spin performance with the camera rig attached. He died filming it. In the movie, however, Goose dies due to hitting the canopy during the ejection, not due to hitting his head during the (upright) spin. -Rob ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:54 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP Good enough, all this answers my question. One switch won't do it. Gang, really thanks. These HI/LO wire are truly the ONLY wires not hooked up on my panel, everything works quite nicely. I'll make a trip to the Aero Radio Shack and finish the plug and play tomorrow. I was just looking for a quick and easy fix...............................oh, well:-) Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: Hopperdhh@aol.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:38:36 EST > > >Sorry, Dick. I meant Dana, of course. > >Dan > >do not archive > > >In a message dated 1/20/2007 5:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Hopperdhh@aol.com writes: > >Dick, > >Isn't there an electrical guru in your EAA chapter? It sounds like you >could >use a little hands on help there. > >Dan Hopper >RV-7A > > _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:38 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III Great post by George. Very informative. Two questions however........if one does not have a G meter, is there any other way to do rolls and loops? Second, George says don't do aerobatics with a passenger. Really? How else can I show off my new skills? Garry Stout RV7A in progress Tampa Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com To: rv-list@matronics.com ; panamared5@brier.net ; kboatright1@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (LONG POST) Dear RV group: How many RV's have crashed from an inverted spin? I know inverted (death) spin, has some emotional connotation, but the fear is ignorance squelched w/ facts. I got a few responses from my How to do a Roll and Loop article, several complimentary and one just plan odd and wrong, so let me clarify a few things: Number one, acro in a RV is not F-16, Pitts or F-14 acro. I think some folks have watched top gun too much (the inverted spin scene where "Goose" dies). RV's are stable and WANT to fly right side up. I am not going to explain basic aerodynamics, but due to wing dihedral, design (NACA 23013.5) and pitch, yaw, roll controls and stability with proper CG, RV's are stable in any attitude. RV's also resist spinning unless intentionally spun. Spins: RV's don't like to even spin right side up, much less inverted. You have to hold controls aggressively and keep and keep them there to the control stops. Once you release or neutralize the controls it will stop spinning in most cases. Some RV's (power on, to the left, fully developed +3 turn stall) might need a touch of anti-spin rudder. By all means be familiar will basic stall / spin recovery. INVERTED SPIN: I have not tried it in a RV and doubt you can even do it intentionally, due to lack of elevator authority and the basic design of the plane. Again dihedral, airfoil design and CG (which is still the same inverter or right side up) makes the plane want to recover naturally in a nose down attitude right side up. The dihedral will naturally make the plane roll upright. Also to spin you need a yaw input or forces, ie rudder. Leave the rudder alone (as I said before) for beginners in rolls and loops. *G LOAD (The MAGIC of 3 Gee's) G load: IF YOU ARE PULLING 4.5 g's to do acro in a RV you are doing it wrong and its not wise. The drag (induced) is proportional to the lift coefficient. As you pull on the stick and load up the wing you increase drag, and drag gets exponentially greater. When you plot lift v drag you will see the curve gets real steep. Over 3 g's is a waste and needlessly bleeds energy (speed) and is like throwing the anchor out. Don't do it unless you want to slow down or in worst case scenario break the airframe (3.5 g's OK fine, +4 g's no not needed). *SPEED Speed for loops: Look for a loop if you want to do 200 mph and pull 6 g's, fine. However I can loop almost ANY plane at 140 mph, Cessna aerobatic for example (of course you have to dive first). It has more drag and less power and about the same weight as an RV. It can loop at 130-140 mph. Stearman? Same thing. The recommend RV loop entry speed is 140-160 mph. You can do it faster. Some guy wrote me and say he can't loop at less than 150kt (173mph) & pulling 4.5g's! OH MY GOSH, that is dangerous for a beginner's. 135-140 mph is "Va", maneuver speed. Flying closer to Va is safer. Even if you mess up and pull too hard, you will not break the plane, it will stall first. To stall is NOT DEATH. It is a normal maneuver you should have mastered as a 10-20 hour private pilot student. Now breaking the wing off? I don't have a recovery for that. Flying fast and pulling more G's is counter productive and gives less margin (structural and airspeed limits). If you pull less G's you lose (need) less speed!!! Yes you need speed for any vertical maneuver but going faster to overcome poor technique or lack of understanding is not good. RV's have low drag and great power/weight. If a Cessna C152 can do it a RV can. IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF STALLS OR NOT PROFICIENT IN ALL KINDS OF STALLS: recognizing impending stall, recovery from stalls: straight, turns, accelerated, power on climb, power off climb, with minimal loss of altitude and effort, THAN DON'T DO AEROBATICS. It does not mean you can't learn and conquer stalls but you will need an instructor, say in an Aerobat or Citabria. I thought I made that clear, but some folks have been spreading fear about stalls. I would rather a guy stall at 3,000 feet and recover than pull the wings OFF. For beginners work at lower entry speeds 140-160 mph and use 3 g's as a basic limit for your maneuvers. At high speed and g's you are very close to the structural and speed limits, especially if you mess up and get nose down with power on. Some folks are worried about stalls and inverted spins. How many inverted stall spin accidents have you heard of in RV's? Pitts special? (several) RV's? (none); Now may be that its the pilot, plane or may be the Pitts is flown in aggressive acro more? Pitts can have symmetric airfoil wings and they have very little roll stability and no dihedral. You are more likely to get killed from a stall or stall-spin in the traffic pattern (from pilot miss handling the controls and not maintaining airspeed) than doing a loop at a safe altitude. Now I am not saying everyone loop your RV. Truth be told there are some pilots that may be should be flying at all, straight and level much less trying acro. Please read what I wrote before and all the cautions and caveats. IF YOU STALL INVERTED, THE RV WILL NOT SNAP INTO AN INVERTED SPIN. In fact if you do nothing the nose will just drop and it will just roll/dish-out and end up the way it was designed to fly, nose down probably flying wings level straight ahead or in a bank / spiral. A simple recovery is all that is needed. Even in you stalled upside down, and pushed the stick forward and added rudder it would probably snap roll. If you just release the controls it would fly again. You really have to put in PRO stall and PRO spin (yaw) controls to get a RV to stall and spin. However even a stall from inverted with rudder kicked in the spin would likely be up-right, not inverted. It would take talent to do an inverted spin in a RV. *FLOATING? (i.e., less than +1g to plus side of zero-g) The fear of having less than 1 g over the top a loop, so called FLOATING, from one guy that wrote me, who likes to enter a loop at very high speeds and G's scares me. A FULL ONE G is ridiculous at the top of a loop. Since gravity is a negative 1 g at that point, than you need to still be accelerating down @ +2 g's vertical pitch. That is a very tight loop and really what I call a "Whiffer- Dale" (any maneuver that is really not a recognized aerobatic maneuver) a kind of a vertical climb with a hook on the end and a dive and level off, not a loop. Lots of g's and not necessary or elegant. Than he said some stuff about a perfect loop is not for beginners. I have no idea what he is talking about. One my technique is far from the perfect loop, just a safe loop. Second I have been flying for over 20 years and doing acro for at least 15 years, I still can't do a perfect loop. The RV fly's fine on +1 g, +1/2 g, +1/10th g. You do not need inverted systems to fly around "light" in the seat. With an inverted systems great, but the RV design (wing, dihedral, CG) likes to fly right side-up. Intentional inverted maneuver in most planes are hard, especially the RV. Now planes with no dihedral and symmetric airfoils are easy to fly upside down. That is not the RV. I have several RV buddies with inverted oil/fuel. When they are upside down and the wing needs a lot of neg AOA to fly, very nose up attitude in level -1g inverted flight. RV's don't like to fly negative G's. Also the stall speed of a RV at acro weight is what? 50-55 mph at 1g. At 1/2 g stall speed will be way lower. At zero g's it will be basically nothing. YOU WILL NOT STALL,SPIN AND DIE IF YOU LOOP AT 140-160 mph, IF YOU DON'T PULL TOO MANY G's and BLEED ALL YOUR ENERGY OFF (as some recommend). RV's also because of the great wing don't do snap rolls well because the wing wants to fly. You have to put stall strips on it, which raises the stall speed. RV's are good basic fun acro planes but not serious hard core acro planes. The actual problem with RV's is they acro TOO easily and make pilots think they are better than they are. Many acro planes are not as forgiving, demanding more skill and technique to properly loop and roll around the sky. Basic acro the RV is the best there is. Good Luck, again because of people who wrote me and said scary things who think they know, is the reason I wrote the article. As I stated you need to be competent and confident in you airmanship before undergoing acro. However acro is not inherently dangerous. The plane fly's fine in all attitudes. However professional airshow and competition pilots that are dedicated to acro do crash from time to time. Flying has risk folks. Do ignore the alarmist's. However if you have GOOD basic skills and follow GOOD basic common sense than acro in RV's is very safe, but of course NOTHING is without risk. I suggest you find an OLD back issue of the RVator and Van's two or three part article on doing ACRO. It basically was from the same point of view, you should get dual BUT I know you are going to do it, so at least have some advice. The problem is getting dual anything in RV's, much less dual acro in a RV. You can go up in a Pitts and have a guy loop, roll and show off and it will not help you fly the RV. The RV is not a Pitts. It would probably be better to go up in a Cessna Aerobat or Citabria and learn some basics if you can't get RV dual. Also many RV's are too heavy to for dual acro. *Mo Knowledge: Books to read: "Roll Around a Point", by Duane Cole "The Conquest of Lines and Symmetry", by Duane Cole "Aerobatics", by Neil Williams "Aerobatics Today", by Bob O'Dell "Flight Unlimited", by Eric Mueller "The Basic Aerobatic Manual", by Bill Kershner "Stalls, Spins and Safety", by Sammy Mason Check out some of the aerobatic clubs like EAA's IAC http://www.iac.org/ "A person who teaches himself to do aerobatics has a fool for an instructor". Author unknown However I know some are going to do it any way. I also know there are a few out there that are doing and have been doing acro who don't have a clue and they scare me. I hope the info is help full. *Mo Practice The information I presented is basic outline. There is NO FAR that prohibits you from doing aerobatics with out an endorsement or training as long as you are off the airways and not too low or close to persons, places and things. Of course that does not mean you will not get the catch all of reckless and careless operation. I personally am a very conservative pilot, former CFI-II-MEI with 1000's of hours of dual given and now airline pilot. I have looped and rolled many planes (not airliners of course) and its fun. Just use common sense and KNOW THY SELF. Training is BEST but many have lost their acro virginity solo. *G TOLERANCE To get use to G's I highly recommend 70 degree banks is about 3 g' (level turn). 60 degree banks are only 2 g's. You will need to add LOTS of POWER for 70 degrees. Again respect the structural and speed limits and do not enter at higher than Va. Va is your safe speed. Also the g's will acclimate you. Some people go cationic or freeze when they see the sky and earth flip or their body experiences more than 1.5 g's. *Hate Mail (not you Bob) One guy wrote me and scolded me about how dare I teach or post on the web how to do aerobatics, "beginners don't have the touch or feel". That is either pure ignorance or pure ego, like its so difficult and only he can do it. Please again read all my previous caveats. I recommend not doing acro with passengers, and do acro over remote areas. Why? Well if you kill your self than you will not hurt anyone else. Hate to be grim but Aerobatic accidents are from many reasons but mostly pilots doing them 1) too low and 2) with out knowledge and 3) no skill. I have addressed all three. RULES: safe altitude, respect limits SKILL: Practice the prerequisites to acro maneuver's KNOWLEDGE: Read and ask questions YOU CAN LEARN RULES, YOU CAN GET KNOWLEDGE, BUT THE ACRO SKILL WILL NOT COME UNLESS YOU PRACTICE AND ACTUALLY DO IT. YOU CAN'T LEARN WITH OUT EXPERIENCING IT. Many times the practice or initial acro experience comes solo and is self taught, but if I explain how to do an ILS instrument approach I don't expect a VFR pilot to launch into solid IMC. Same with aerobatics, however a skilled private pilot should have the basic tool kit of skills and knowledge to understand aerobatics. You never can have enough info, skill or knowledge, but there is a first time for every thing. Ideally when you lose your roll or loop virginity you have some one there to back you up. Can I roll on takeoff. Yes, but I don't because I know my chance of death go up 10,000 fold. Do I fall out of acro maneuvers? Yes but not basic ones like I described previously, aileron roll and loop. Respect the airplane's limits and your personal limits. Acro is not for everyone. Fly Safe, George ATP B73/75/76, CFI-II-MEI, RV-4, RV-7 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:44 PM PST US From: Larry Pardue Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III On Jan 20, 2007, at 4:15 PM, wrote: > ... > RV's also because of the great wing don't do snap rolls > well because the wing wants to fly. You have to put stall > strips on it, which raises the stall speed.... Ok, George, you've got me curious about how the RVs you have flown snap. I have a 6 with an O-360 and fixed Sensenich and it seems to snap just fine (I have only done it solo). I have never flown an all out aerobatic plane, so maybe I don't know what is supposed to happen. At the recommended entry speed I put in full elevator and rudder and bam, it goes around smartly. I have difficulty timing the recovery so it happens at exactly wings level, but I have that same problem with Citabrias. Larry Pardue ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:38 PM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: RE: RV-List: GRRRRRINNNNNNN !!!! N696WG First Flight !! Gerry, CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE !!! Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A >From: "Gerry Filby" >To: norcal-rvlist.com@yahoo.com, socal-rvlist.com@yahoo.com, >rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: GRRRRRINNNNNNN !!!! N696WG First Flight !! >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:11:16 +0000 > >This morning N696WG (RV-9 #90842) flew into the ice blue skies over KHAF >for the first time. > >What an incredible experience. > >Bart's Aerosport IO-320 hauled her off the runway like we were late for an >angel's wedding _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/?icid=nctagline2 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:24 PM PST US From: "Trevor" Subject: Fw: RV-List: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer ----- Original Message ----- From: Trevor Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 11:06 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer Sorry made a mistake with the e-mail address should be : rainier@iafrica.com or info@mglavionics.co.za Their name is MGL Avionics and they make the Enigma EFIS. Try contacting rianier@iafrica.com or visit their web page at www.mglavionics.co.za Trevor ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fasching To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:15 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for a Certain Manufacturer I am trying to recall the name of a South African maker of digital instruments. Their products were originally aimed at the ultralight sector of aviation, but they have moved more into the mainstream now. Their products and/or perhaps their name was three letters, like MDL or MGC or somesuch...neither of these are correct. I can't recall or locate the company. Any suggestions would be appreciated. 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