---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/22/07: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:39 AM - Re: Basicwiring HELP (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 2. 07:48 AM - Tank Vent problem (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR) 3. 08:02 AM - The tax man Cometh! (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR) 4. 08:33 AM - Orndorffs moving (Becki) 5. 08:34 AM - Re: The tax man Cometh! (Bruce Gray) 6. 08:36 AM - Re: Tank Vent problem (Ron Lee) 7. 09:36 AM - Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III (Bob) 8. 09:44 AM - Re: Tank Vent problem (Phil Birkelbach) 9. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Bob) 10. 10:33 AM - Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO (Charles Brame) 11. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Chuck Jensen) 12. 10:57 AM - Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Bob Collins) 13. 11:04 AM - Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Bob Collins) 14. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Terry Watson) 15. 11:26 AM - C150 (Wheeler North) 16. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 17. 11:47 AM - Re: Tank Vent problem (Phil Sisson) 18. 11:52 AM - Tank Vent problem (James H Nelson) 19. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (JOHN STARN) 20. 12:48 PM - Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Bob Collins) 21. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Jim Pleasants) 22. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO (Terry Watson) 23. 02:00 PM - Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (Bob Collins) 24. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (JOHN STARN) 25. 06:46 PM - Fuel collecting in bottom of FAB (Gerry Filby) 26. 07:52 PM - Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fuel collecting in bottom of FAB (Dan Checkoway) 27. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing (JOHN STARN) 28. 11:14 PM - Prop Bolts (Neil-Fly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:19 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Basicwiring HELP In a message dated 1/21/2007 11:25:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, cgreimer@mts.net writes: I think the diagram is incorrect. The bottom row of lamps needs to have their lower terminals connected to +12V, not ground. Clever idea though. Curt Curt, The original schematic was indeed wrong, but the second one should be OK. I wish there were a way to take back something you post. The original drawing will forever haunt me! Dan do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:51 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Tank Vent problem From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Lister, I'd like to share with you a tank vent problem I had last weekend (1/20/07). I flew a 30 minute IFR ride, in light/moderate snow, from 44N to 7B6, landed, taxied to the hanger and parked the plane. As I was leaving the hanger, I happened to note that the left main tank area of the wing was deformed with notable inward scalloping.... Opening the tip tank cap, and allowing in some air, allowed the deformation to be reduced. I capped the tank prior to all the air being replaced, and then inserted some safety wire into the tip tank vent. This resulted in a "whoosh" of air into the tank. The vent was noticeable blocked with ice/snow... The OAT at altitude was 11*F... Fortunately, the main tank deformation was not serious, and removing the vacuum allowed the tank to return to its original shape. The plane specifics are: RV-6A Tip-up with Jon Johansson tip tanks. The tip tank vent (located at the wing tip) is the ONLY vent for BOTH tanks on each wing. I have 3/8" tubing between the main and tip tank. The original Van's vent on the main tank has been capped. This situation could have resulted in an in-flight engine failure. Fortunately, the right tank vent was clear (but it could just as easily have been blocked since it saw the same flying conditions). And, fortunately, it was a short trip..... THIS IS A SINGLE POINT FAILURE ISSUE WAITING FOR AN ACCIDENT! Van's tank venting design is somewhat tolerant of in-flight blockage due to the fact they are located near the cowl warm air exits. But, even without the tips tank issue (with vents on the wing-tips) the same vent blockage problem could happen to a standard tank configuration. In researching other certified IFR aircraft, I found that the tanks are usually vented in multiple ways. In addition to the main tank vents, Pipers and Cessna's have gas caps that will allow the air to go in, but will not allow gas to exit. A multiple point failure would have to happen to get a starved engine due to lack of tank venting. I am going to try modifying my tank caps to have the same feature. I figure a #70 drill hole through the cap (both pieces) with a plastic "flapper" over the hole on the inside surface (glued in place with ProSeal) should do the trick (maybe even a larger hole)..... Any comments? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 703 Hrs ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:57 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: The tax man Cometh! From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Listers, Another bit of bad news. I just got a Sales tax bill for my RV-6A engine that was purchased from AeroSport Power in 2003. Seems like the state of CT found out about the purchase by cross referencing the US customs paperwork. We have a 6% sales tax here in Ct. With the interest and penalty, the bill was almost $1900.00..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 703 hrs ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:22 AM PST US From: "Becki" Subject: RV-List: Orndorffs moving Great news! We have sold our house and hangar in Texas and will be moving to North Carolina over the weekend. We'll be mostly out of contact for the next 2 weeks. Please bear with us. And check our website (www.fly-gbi.com) to watch the progress of building our new house and hangar at Gold Hill Airpark, Gold Hill, NC. Thanks for all your support! George and Becki Orndorff ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:58 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: The tax man Cometh! Pity those who also live in a state with sales/use tax and an annual property tax. At least Connecticut has done away with that onerous property tax. Bruce www.glasair.org Also in CT. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: RV-List: The tax man Cometh! Listers, Another bit of bad news. I just got a Sales tax bill for my RV-6A engine that was purchased from AeroSport Power in 2003. Seems like the state of CT found out about the purchase by cross referencing the US customs paperwork. We have a 6% sales tax here in Ct. With the interest and penalty, the bill was almost $1900.00... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 703 hrs ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:36 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Tank Vent problem >One nit. I would call the possible result "fuel starvation" rather than >engine failure. Why did you cap the original tank vents? Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:45 AM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO PART III George Thanks for the reply. I am not worried about an accidental inverted spin. But, I am trying to practice for the future when I have to fly one in and IAC contest. I know, I probably will not be flying an RV at the level that requires an inverted spin, but the best way to get good at something is to practice. Your point is well taken, maybe due to the design the RV will not even do an inverted spin. I'll let you know. Bob >Number one, acro in a RV is not F-16, Pitts or F-14 >acro. I think some folks have watched top gun too >much (the inverted spin scene where "Goose" dies). > >RV's are stable and WANT to fly right side up. >I am not going to explain basic aerodynamics, >but due to wing dihedral, design (NACA 23013.5) and >pitch, yaw, roll controls and stability with proper CG, >RV's are stable in any attitude. RV's also resist spinning >unless intentionally spun. > >Spins: RV's don't like to even spin right side up, >much less inverted. You have to hold controls >aggressively and keep and keep them there to the >control stops. Once you release or neutralize the >controls it will stop spinning in most cases. Some RV's >(power on, to the left, fully developed +3 turn stall) >might need a touch of anti-spin rudder. By all means be >familiar will basic stall / spin recovery. > >INVERTED SPIN: I have not tried it in a RV >and doubt you can even do it intentionally, due to lack >of elevator authority and the basic design of the plane. >Again dihedral, airfoil design and CG (which is still the >same inverter or right side up) makes the plane want to >recover naturally in a nose down attitude right side up. >The dihedral will naturally make the plane roll upright. >Also to spin you need a yaw input or forces, ie rudder. >Leave the rudder alone (as I said before) for beginners >in rolls and loops. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:02 AM PST US From: Phil Birkelbach Subject: Re: RV-List: Tank Vent problem Okay, I'll bite. The little plastic flapper with Pro-seal idea makes me nervous. I can see a small piece of plastic winding up somewhere in the fuel system. If proper precautions are taken it might work okay, but be sure that the solution is not worse than the problem. The holes in the caps are going to let water in too. You need to deal with that somehow. Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB http://www.myrv7.com Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR wrote: > > Lister, > > I'd like to share with you a tank vent problem I had last weekend > (1/20/07). I flew a 30 minute IFR ride, in light/moderate snow, from > 44N to 7B6, landed, taxied to the hanger and parked the plane. As I > was leaving the hanger, I happened to note that the left main tank > area of the wing was deformed with notable inward scalloping. Opening > the tip tank cap, and allowing in some air, allowed the deformation to > be reduced. I capped the tank prior to all the air being replaced, and > then inserted some safety wire into the tip tank vent. This resulted > in a "whoosh" of air into the tank. The vent was noticeable blocked > with ice/snow The OAT at altitude was 11*F... > > Fortunately, the main tank deformation was not serious, and removing > the vacuum allowed the tank to return to its original shape. > > The plane specifics are: RV-6A Tip-up with Jon Johansson tip tanks. > The tip tank vent (located at the wing tip) is the ONLY vent for BOTH > tanks on each wing. I have 3/8" tubing between the main and tip tank. > The original Van's vent on the main tank has been capped. > > This situation could have resulted in an in-flight engine failure. > Fortunately, the right tank vent was clear (but it could just as > easily have been blocked since it saw the same flying conditions). > And, fortunately, it was a short trip.. > > THIS IS A SINGLE POINT FAILURE ISSUE WAITING FOR AN ACCIDENT! Van's > tank venting design is somewhat tolerant of in-flight blockage due to > the fact they are located near the cowl warm air exits. But, even > without the tips tank issue (with vents on the wing-tips) the same > vent blockage problem could happen to a standard tank configuration. > > In researching other certified IFR aircraft, I found that the tanks > are usually vented in multiple ways. In addition to the main tank > vents, Pipers and Cessna's have gas caps that will allow the air to go > in, but will not allow gas to exit. A multiple point failure would > have to happen to get a starved engine due to lack of tank venting. > > I am going to try modifying my tank caps to have the same feature. I > figure a #70 drill hole through the cap (both pieces) with a plastic > "flapper" over the hole on the inside surface (glued in place with > ProSeal) should do the trick (maybe even a larger hole).. > > Any comments? > > *Fred Stucklen* > *RV-6A N926RV 703 Hrs* > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:16 AM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing As the President of a local EAA Chapter that has also hosted fly-ins, I am interested in knowing why the EAA was sued. On what grounds? Why do I want to know this? Because when Mr Don Corbitt comes to my fly-in, I am going to have figure out how to keep him from intentionally killing himself, so that my chapter and I do not get personally sued for his incompetence. What did the airshow do wrong? How could they have done it better? What are they being punished for? If our legal system can not answer that to the Great American Public, then all this lawsuit was about, was the legal transfer of funds from the EAA to the pilots family. The lawsuit is over, it has been in the papers etc. So I ask again, why is the critical information concerning this law suit still be held "TOP SECRET". Now I am being told to be patient. I have been waiting for almost 7 years!!! Do I have a fly-in this year or will I wait a few more years? For those who seem to be so impressed with our legal system and are feeling bad because the EAA actions killed Don Corbitt, then why don't you host an EAA fly-in, put yourself, your family and friends and your EAA chapter at great financial risk while not even knowing how to control or mitigate the risks (because the legal system won't tell you until you are sued). This lawsuit did not just punish the Arlington Fly-in, but it also punishes all other fly-ins, when they are canceled due to a lack of critical information on how to avoid a lawsuit when Mr Don Corbitt commits suicide at the fly-in. I am not taking sides on this lawsuit one way or the other. But, I am wise enough to try and learn from the mistakes of others. We will never know what mistake Mr Don Corbitt made, but we sure should be able to find out what mistakes the EAA made, and why the jury held the EAA liable for his death!! Now you know why this is such a bad thing! Bob ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:54 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: RV-List: Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO I'm an old fighter pilot and former spin instructor in the T-37. Consequently, I have little fear of aerobatics and/or spins, erect or inverted. I do realize the RV is not a hard acro bird, and don't plan anything other than gentlemen's aerobatics. However, all my experience is (was) in jets and I've done very limited acro in a conventional powered airplane. My questions pertain to power management doing acro in an RV (or any conventionally powered airplane for that matter.) What does one do with engine power in a loop or split S? Any difference between fixed and constant speed props? Should I be concerned about shock cooling while doing acro? I'm really talking about planned power changes and not emergency power reduction because the nose is buried and the speed is approaching Vne. Can anyone recommend a book regarding conventional aerobatics? Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:12 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing From: "Chuck Jensen" Bob, This seems like a fair set of questions to pose to the EAA, NWEAA, as appropriate. They should be attuned to 1) what deficiency on their part was alleged, 2) what they can do differently (besides never holding a fly-in again) and, 3) sage advice from their legal counsel. They should be willing to share this information and their thoughts, given that they are a service organization whose mission is to improve, expand and protect aviation in general, and experimental aviation specifically. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 2:08 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing As the President of a local EAA Chapter that has also hosted fly-ins, I am interested in knowing why the EAA was sued. On what grounds? Why do I want to know this? Because when Mr Don Corbitt comes to my fly-in, I am going to have figure out how to keep him from intentionally killing himself, so that my chapter and I do not get personally sued for his incompetence. What did the airshow do wrong? How could they have done it better? What are they being punished for? If our legal system can not answer that to the Great American Public, then all this lawsuit was about, was the legal transfer of funds from the EAA to the pilots family. The lawsuit is over, it has been in the papers etc. So I ask again, why is the critical information concerning this law suit still be held "TOP SECRET". Now I am being told to be patient. I have been waiting for almost 7 years!!! Do I have a fly-in this year or will I wait a few more years? For those who seem to be so impressed with our legal system and are feeling bad because the EAA actions killed Don Corbitt, then why don't you host an EAA fly-in, put yourself, your family and friends and your EAA chapter at great financial risk while not even knowing how to control or mitigate the risks (because the legal system won't tell you until you are sued). This lawsuit did not just punish the Arlington Fly-in, but it also punishes all other fly-ins, when they are canceled due to a lack of critical information on how to avoid a lawsuit when Mr Don Corbitt commits suicide at the fly-in. I am not taking sides on this lawsuit one way or the other. But, I am wise enough to try and learn from the mistakes of others. We will never know what mistake Mr Don Corbitt made, but we sure should be able to find out what mistakes the EAA made, and why the jury held the EAA liable for his death!! Now you know why this is such a bad thing! Bob ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:26 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing From: "Bob Collins" The lawsuit is a matter of public record. We just have to organize a bit to get ahold of the documents in the case to be able to answer the questions posed. I've had a couple of lawyers (RVers and members of the list) offer to help me in this and I intend to take them up on their offer). It's also a matter of $$ to pay for obtaining the documents. BTW, the title of this thread further exaccerbates what one might -- rightly or wrongly -- conclude was an attempt to obscure the original point which was -- to repeat myself AGAIN -- "what is waiting to get the information before judging the case a bad thing?" I'm not sure what the motive behind that such a thing would be. But *I* intend to get the fact before *I* decide what *I* think about the case. What you do is up to you. Do not archive. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89562#89562 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:39 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing From: "Bob Collins" cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote: > > This seems like a fair set of questions to pose to the EAA, NWEAA, as > appropriate. They should be attuned to 1) what deficiency on their part > was alleged, 2) what they can do differently (besides never holding a > fly-in again) and, 3) sage advice from their legal counsel. All of these are answered in the court documents. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89563#89563 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:30 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing Did anyone anywhere anytime ever say "... the EAA actions killed Don Corbitt"? The whole argument seems to be over why a jury saw fit to award a large judgment to his family. We don't yet know what argument convinced the jury that someone other than Don's estate should pay. And don't worry, this particular Mr. Don Corbitt will never be coming to your fly-in. I agree with your frustration and indignation, but we seem to be having a real hard time keeping the facts separate from the straw-man arguments that we appear to all agree on. It could conceivably have some bearing on this case that the Seattle Times has recently done a lengthy series on a large number of improperly sealed court cases, but this verdict came in after the courts decided to mend their ways and be less secretive. Terry Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 11:08 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing As the President of a local EAA Chapter that has also hosted fly-ins, I am interested in knowing why the EAA was sued. On what grounds? Why do I want to know this? Because when Mr Don Corbitt comes to my fly-in, I am going to have figure out how to keep him from intentionally killing himself, so that my chapter and I do not get personally sued for his incompetence. What did the airshow do wrong? How could they have done it better? What are they being punished for? If our legal system can not answer that to the Great American Public, then all this lawsuit was about, was the legal transfer of funds from the EAA to the pilots family. The lawsuit is over, it has been in the papers etc. So I ask again, why is the critical information concerning this law suit still be held "TOP SECRET". Now I am being told to be patient. I have been waiting for almost 7 years!!! Do I have a fly-in this year or will I wait a few more years? For those who seem to be so impressed with our legal system and are feeling bad because the EAA actions killed Don Corbitt, then why don't you host an EAA fly-in, put yourself, your family and friends and your EAA chapter at great financial risk while not even knowing how to control or mitigate the risks (because the legal system won't tell you until you are sued). This lawsuit did not just punish the Arlington Fly-in, but it also punishes all other fly-ins, when they are canceled due to a lack of critical information on how to avoid a lawsuit when Mr Don Corbitt commits suicide at the fly-in. I am not taking sides on this lawsuit one way or the other. But, I am wise enough to try and learn from the mistakes of others. We will never know what mistake Mr Don Corbitt made, but we sure should be able to find out what mistakes the EAA made, and why the jury held the EAA liable for his death!! Now you know why this is such a bad thing! Bob ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:07 AM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: C150 Yeah T, The C-150 was spiffed up with a bigger engine, no cowl but exterior engine baffles for cooling. Some of us are also wondering if the old Cessna Seat Rail AD reared it's ugly head in this case. I'm sure they will be measuring what's left of them to see. It stuck straight tail up in the middle of the runway with no part of the aircraft existing beyond the main wing spar. W Time: 05:15:04 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: AWO Can you clarify this? They were doing a banner tow pickup with a Cessna 150? I have done banner tows with a 170 (180 H.P.). You come across the rope line dragging a grapple hook and then point your airplane up until the parachute you are pulling comes taught or you run out of airspeed. It all happens very fast. A 150 though seems a bit under powered for this. Just curious however Tim Do Not Archive >>And sadly, we just had the exact same accident occur in front of my hangar >>row on a banner tow pickup two weeks ago. Crushed a bright young woman in >>an instant as the Cessna 150 was perfectly vertical at impact. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:53 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO mike goulian and geza szurovy have two books out that are what you are probably looking for. basic and advance aerobatics are the book names. t-37 spin training was cool! I can close my eyes now and still to the BOLD FACE. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Charles Brame > > I'm an old fighter pilot and former spin instructor in the T-37. > Consequently, I have little fear of aerobatics and/or spins, erect or > inverted. I do realize the RV is not a hard acro bird, and don't plan > anything other than gentlemen's aerobatics. However, all my > experience is (was) in jets and I've done very limited acro in a > conventional powered airplane. > > My questions pertain to power management doing acro in an RV (or any > conventionally powered airplane for that matter.) What does one do > with engine power in a loop or split S? Any difference between fixed > and constant speed props? Should I be concerned about shock cooling > while doing acro? I'm really talking about planned power changes and > not emergency power reduction because the nose is buried and the > speed is approaching Vne. > > Can anyone recommend a book regarding conventional aerobatics? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > > >
mike goulian and geza szurovy have two books out that are what you are probably looking for.
 
basic and advance aerobatics are the book names. 
 
t-37 spin training was cool!  I can close my eyes now and still to the BOLD FACE.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>

> --> RV-List message posted by: Charles Brame
>
> I'm an old fighter pilot and former spin instructor in the T-37.
> Consequently, I have little fear of aerobatics and/or spins, erect or
> inverted. I do realize the RV is not a hard acro bird, and don't plan
> anything other than gentlemen's aerobatics. However, all my
> experience is (was) in jets and I've done very limited acro in a
> conventional powered airplane.
>
> My questions pertain to power management doing acro in an RV (or any
> conventionally powered airplane for that matter.) What does one do
> with engine power in a loop or split S? Any difference between fixed
> and constant speed props? Should I be concerned abo ut sho http:
________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:55 AM PST US From: "Phil Sisson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Tank Vent problem Just keep in mind that tank vents should not inhibit the ex-hale requirements of the air volume in the tank. My vents are close to static (perpendicular to longitudinal axis), No real need to point them forward as they very often are because they need to breath out when climbing. (Pitt's point them backwards to keep bugs and debris from entering the vent system). If tanks are, let's say half full of fuel and you are climbing, there is a lot of air expansion taking place and the vents are exhaling a lot of air. Just things to keep in mind. The tanks need to breathe in when coming down and they need to breathe out when climbing. The fuller the tank will mean less air has to escape but as fuel is used up the air volume Increases and so the greater need for a good vent. My situation is like most RV's. Low wing, pumped fuel. Gravity flow systems will need its own study. Just my own ideas. Phil in Illinois _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: RV-List: Tank Vent problem Lister, I'd like to share with you a tank vent problem I had last weekend (1/20/07). I flew a 30 minute IFR ride, in light/moderate snow, from 44N to 7B6, landed, taxied to the hanger and parked the plane. As I was leaving the hanger, I happened to note that the left main tank area of the wing was deformed with notable inward scalloping.. Opening the tip tank cap, and allowing in some air, allowed the deformation to be reduced. I capped the tank prior to all the air being replaced, and then inserted some safety wire into the tip tank vent. This resulted in a "whoosh" of air into the tank. The vent was noticeable blocked with ice/snow. The OAT at altitude was 11*F... Fortunately, the main tank deformation was not serious, and removing the vacuum allowed the tank to return to its original shape. The plane specifics are: RV-6A Tip-up with Jon Johansson tip tanks. The tip tank vent (located at the wing tip) is the ONLY vent for BOTH tanks on each wing. I have 3/8" tubing between the main and tip tank. The original Van's vent on the main tank has been capped. This situation could have resulted in an in-flight engine failure. Fortunately, the right tank vent was clear (but it could just as easily have been blocked since it saw the same flying conditions). And, fortunately, it was a short trip... THIS IS A SINGLE POINT FAILURE ISSUE WAITING FOR AN ACCIDENT! Van's tank venting design is somewhat tolerant of in-flight blockage due to the fact they are located near the cowl warm air exits. But, even without the tips tank issue (with vents on the wing-tips) the same vent blockage problem could happen to a standard tank configuration. In researching other certified IFR aircraft, I found that the tanks are usually vented in multiple ways. In addition to the main tank vents, Pipers and Cessna's have gas caps that will allow the air to go in, but will not allow gas to exit. A multiple point failure would have to happen to get a starved engine due to lack of tank venting. I am going to try modifying my tank caps to have the same feature. I figure a #70 drill hole through the cap (both pieces) with a plastic "flapper" over the hole on the inside surface (glued in place with ProSeal) should do the trick (maybe even a larger hole)... Any comments? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 703 Hrs ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:38 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Tank Vent problem From: James H Nelson Fred, I built an Europa several years back and we also had a vent that could be blocked with a bug (or mud dobber or-)or--- So the company had the vent line drilled in the rear of the fitting with a .070 drill. this way if the main vent got plugged, the rear facing drilled hole would allow the tank to work with out stopping fuel. We had a single tank inside the fuselage and it was important to keep it functioning. I am going to back drill the fittings on my "9-A" so that should not happen to me. Jim Nelson RV9-A FWF ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:42 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing As a long time member & officer of a local EAA Chapter I think you have raised a very question. I don't have the answer but would be interested in the results. We, the EAA Chapter, hosted the start of the Copperstate Race for several years. Aircraft Spruce not longer sponsors it and we understand that it was the insurance companies & lawyers that convinced Jim that his "exposure" was too great. The bean counters & bottom feeders have struck once again. Makes me wonder about the Young Eagles flight in the same area of Washington that killed the pilot & two Y.E.'s is also headed for court. KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob" Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 11:08 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing >> As the President of a local EAA Chapter that has also hosted fly-ins, I >> am > interested in knowing why the EAA was sued. On what grounds? Why do I > want to know this? Because when Mr Don Corbitt comes to my fly-in, I am > going to have figure out how to keep him from intentionally killing > himself, so that my chapter and I do not get personally sued for his > incompetence. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:56 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing From: "Bob Collins" jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote: > > We, the EAA Chapter, hosted the start of the Copperstate Race for several > years. Aircraft Spruce not longer sponsors it and we understand that it was > the insurance companies & lawyers that convinced Jim that his "exposure" was > too great. Part of my difficulty in getting a handle on this is figuring out what's first-hand information and what's not, so that I can figure out who I need to talk to. Whenyou say it was your "understanding," where did that information come from? Thanks in advance. B Do not archive -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89581#89581 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:39 PM PST US From: "Jim Pleasants" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing Respectfully, gang, could you not move this whole thread to a "I hate lawsuits" forum somewhere else, so we could have our RV-construction-operation forum back? Jim Pleasants DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:30 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO I remember the procedure well, but it's not in my August 1964 version of the T-37B's ATC Flight Crew Checklist. I think I remember that we would climb to 25,000 feet to do spins at Williams AFB. It took awhile to get there but it didn't seem excessive on the way down. Terry Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucky Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 11:46 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aerobatics, just say NO to inverted Spins! HOW TO mike goulian and geza szurovy have two books out that are what you are probably looking for. basic and advance aerobatics are the book names. t-37 spin training was cool! I can close my eyes now and still to the BOLD FACE. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Charles Brame > > I'm an old fighter pilot and former spin instructor in the T-37. > Consequently, I have little fear of aerobatics and/or spins, erect or > inverted. I do realize the RV is not a hard acro bird, and don't plan > anything other than gentlemen's aerobatics. However, all my > experience is (was) in jets and I've done very limited acro in a > conventional powered airplane. > > My questions pertain to power management doing acro in an RV (or any > conventionally powered airplane for that matter.) What does one do > with engine power in a loop or split S? Any difference between fixed > and constant speed props? Should I be concerned abo ut sho http: ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:26 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing From: "Bob Collins" One of the things you're going to find, with Matte's creation of the Web-based interface to conduct the RV-List, is that it will -- for obvious reasons -- become the default interface over e-mail, in that people -- as on VAF, can pick and choose what topics to read. And because doesn't have to worry about... Do not archive It would be interesting to see the breakdown of who's browsing via the Web and who's doing it by e-mail. And for those folks who want to talk RVs, go here (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/wing_doubler_replace.html) and tell me how to solve the mystery at the end. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=89595#89595 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:14 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing Jim Irvine, owner of Aircraft Spruce. Didn't talk to either the lawyers nor his insurance Rep. KABONG Do Not Archive HRII N561FS {Part of my difficulty in getting a handle on this is figuring out what's first- hand information and what's not, so that I can figure out who I need to talk to. When you say it was your "understanding," where did that information come from?} >> We, the EAA Chapter, hosted the start of the Copperstate Race for several >> years. Aircraft Spruce not longer sponsors it and we understand that it >> was >> the insurance companies & lawyers that convinced Jim that his "exposure" >> was >> too great. > > > Part of my difficulty in getting a handle on this is figuring out what's > first-hand information and what's not, so that I can figure out who I need > to talk to. Whenyou say it was your "understanding," where did that > information come from? > > Thanks in advance. > > B > > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:42 PM PST US From: "Gerry Filby" Subject: RV-List: Fuel collecting in bottom of FAB I was busy climbing out of the pattern this morning when I began to smell fuel inside the cabin. First glitch that's caused me to do a 180 and get straight back on the ground, nervously fingering the fuel shut off. Fuel is collecting in the bottom of the FAB (AFP fuel injection, vertical induction on an Aerosport IO-320). Talking to Don at AFP its normal to h ave a little fuel dribble back down the intake pipes as the injector line s get heated up after shutdown - only place for the fuel to go is the cyl inder head and down the intake tubes. Any of you guys out there running the AFP setup on an IO-320 ? Have you h ad similar experiences ? Did you fit a drain tube to the bottom of the FA B to dump the excess overboard ? I see some (Dan C) fitting a "sniffle va lve" on the bottom of the IO-360, doesn't seem to be an option on the IO- 320. g ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:42 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fuel collecting in bottom of FAB Do you have a purge valve? If so, you should be shutting down with the purge valve, NOT the mixture. AFP systems don't cut off fuel flow completely when you pull the mixture (by design). Shut down with the purge valve and there is no way any significant amount of fuel can continue to flow through to the cyls if it's working properly. If you're shutting down with the purge valve and you're still seeing flow, then question/test the purge valve. New airplane, new tanks...crud could have gotten up in there. Unlikely but possible. Sniffle valve...only used on horizontal induction sumps afaik. On your vertical setup you shouldn't really need it. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (1182 hours) www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry Filby" Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 6:44 PM Subject: [SoCAL-RVlist] Fuel collecting in bottom of FAB >I was busy climbing out of the pattern this morning when I began to smell >fuel inside the cabin. First glitch that's caused me to do a 180 and get >straight back on the ground, nervously fingering the fuel shut off. > > Fuel is collecting in the bottom of the FAB (AFP fuel injection, vertical > induction on an Aerosport IO-320). Talking to Don at AFP its normal to > have a little fuel dribble back down the intake pipes as the injector > lines get heated up after shutdown - only place for the fuel to go is the > cylinder head and down the intake tubes. > > Any of you guys out there running the AFP setup on an IO-320 ? Have you > had similar experiences ? Did you fit a drain tube to the bottom of the > FAB to dump the excess overboard ? I see some (Dan C) fitting a "sniffle > valve" on the bottom of the IO-360, doesn't seem to be an option on the > IO-320. > > g > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist/ > > <*> Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > > <*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist/join > (Yahoo! ID required) > > <*> To change settings via email: > mailto:SoCAL-RVlist-digest@yahoogroups.com > mailto:SoCAL-RVlist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > SoCAL-RVlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:26 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing Opp's...not sure if I fat fingered the keys, brain cramp or spell check BUT Jim's last name is Irwin not irvine. Sorry, Do Not Archive. KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOHN STARN" Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 4:36 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Now you know why this is such a bad thing > Jim Irvine, owner of Aircraft Spruce. Didn't talk to either the lawyers > nor his insurance Rep. > KABONG Do Not Archive HRII N561FS ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:12 PM PST US From: "Neil-Fly" Subject: RV-List: Prop Bolts Listers I=92m having great difficulty in locating a source for a set of prop bolts. I=92m fitting a replacement second hand Colin Walker wooden prop which has a boss that=92s thinner than the original and used the standard bolts supplied by Vans. Can anyone direst me to a source/supplier. I=92ve tried Spruce and Wicks without luck. I=92ve also tried Colin Walker but can=92t locate him, would anyone have his contact details. I need bolts with an overall length of 7 =BE=94 may be someone has a set to sell. Neil Henderson RV9A G-CCZT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.