Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen)
2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
3. 08:19 AM - Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum (Mitchell Faatz)
4. 09:55 AM - RV6A Project for Sale (Gene Gottschalk)
5. 10:13 AM - Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry)
6. 10:38 AM - Texas Visit (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI)
7. 11:12 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway)
8. 11:48 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (bill shook)
9. 11:58 AM - Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
10. 12:42 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (smitty@smittysrv.com)
11. 01:01 PM - RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
12. 01:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Bill & Tami Britton)
13. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
14. 01:49 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette)
15. 01:58 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (linn Walters)
16. 02:28 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
17. 02:34 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
18. 02:35 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins)
19. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan Checkoway)
20. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (linn Walters)
21. 08:53 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave Nellis)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
If the instructions were faulty, the defense attorneys were more
culpable than that. Jury instructions are not extemporaneous.
Competing instructions are submitted to the Judge, he blends them
together, the blended instructions are then given to the attorneys to
give them an opportunity to object, then they are given to the Jury.
However, if they may well have objected to the addition, or omission, of
parts of the instructions and the Judge decided against them. Of
course, the challenge to the instructions can then be a basis for an
appeal. It's never simple.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
Those instructions were given in open court in front of the defense,
plaintiff, jury and anyone in the courtroom. The legal team for the EAA
and the Arlington flyin were grossly negligent in their duties. One of
those idiots should have spoke up and objected right then...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
// The jury is there to act as a check on defective and illogical laws.
When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as most jurors do, you
preserve these defective laws. The same goes for those who vote for and
support clearly unconstitutional laws. My guess is that this includes
many here who complain loudly about this particular case in which their
own person ox was gored.
As the article pointe dout (and I sure hope folks read it), the problem
in this case wasn't identified as the instructions the jurors got; it
was the the instructions the jurors DIDN'T get.
Do not archive.
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
tronics.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible
arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the
instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's
call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't
know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I
even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.
You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team
was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did
in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction.
But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing
themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their
ignorance.
You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.
Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum |
Okay, I'm at whit's end. I've spend the last couple weeks trying to
track down a high pitched "hum" on the NAV 1 audio coming from my new
Garmin 430. I have the Approach Systems Pro-G hub and cable harnesses,
which they just replaced to see if that solves the hum (the hum would
cut in and out when I tugged on the harness so I suspected the
harness). Well, I just spent several more hours installing the new
harness to where I could test it, and the hum is now there all the
time. Wiggling the harness no longer makes the hum cut in and out :(
I've done further troubleshooting:
- all Circuit Breaks pulled except NAV (10amp) and COM (5 amp)
- all fuses pulled (everything off except Garmin 430)
- everything in hangar turned off (lights, heaters, etc)
- tried both switching power supply and aircraft battery.
- probed pin 23 on hub AUDIO PANEL HD44, hearing hum
- probed pin 10 on COMM 1 cable going to HD26, hearing hum
- pulled EVERY ground off forest-of-tabs grounding block except battery
contactor, still hearing hum
- swapped Garmin 430's with my hangar mate, still hearing hum.
SO, it seems like the radio is not the problem, and the only thing
between the radio and the headphones is the wire harness! Which is the
second one from Approach Systems, I can't imagine it also has a problem
but you never know. Here's another funny thing, even with all the
grounds pulled off the Garmin 430 it's still running, does it get
grounded through the case and/or plug shields?
P.S. Approach Systems gets an A+++ in my book, they have been extremely
responsive to my emails even on weekends.
Help!
Message 4
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| Subject: | RV6A Project for Sale |
Includes:
empanage - done
wings - done except for starboard main skins
fuselage - bottom done, ready to fit wings, includes metal jig
finishing kit - not started
almost every option Vans offers, sliding canopy, electric and manual flaps,
etc.
flight instruments, strobes, 5 point harnesses,
many other parts, too many to mention here
all documents and logs
contact me back channel for complete listing and pricing
Gene Gottschalk
miranda@tartan30.org
Message 5
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| Subject: | Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as the
Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I used.
Recommendations?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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Listers -
I have a TDY scheduled for Feb 26 - Mar 02 in San Antonio (Lackland).
We need a place to tie down a butt-ugly C-210.
Any recommendations?
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG (wiring)
Navarre, FL
W - 850-884-9121
C - 850-218-4838
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we
love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
(basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
> the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
> used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Garmin c340.....very nice unit.
Bill
--- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: GPS for Cars |
On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars,
> such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental
> car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
> systems are to what I used. Recommendations?
Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). They
bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling somewhere in the
fall, and were extremely impressed with it's capabilities. I don't think
it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the use-in-your-car models.
Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their other
ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more weather-resistant. I
was thinking that the glove-usability might translate into good in-flight
usability (while you're bouncing around in air, for example).
But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do
turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I
haven't done that.
-Rob
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
Smitty
http://SmittysRV.com
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and
we
love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
(basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
as
> the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
> used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
Message 11
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| Subject: | RVAtor Article Needed |
I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and
stopped keeping them
I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and
was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned
that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening
the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more
and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in
advance.
PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling.
John at Salida, CO
n1cxo320@salidaco.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them to
the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo setup from
Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than the others.
Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the $3500 optional big
screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this thing does everything
and more than it does. I think I paid in the $250 - 300 range. It's got a
car charger and stick on window mount for it. My only complaint is it does
not have a home charger (120V). The unit is called a Dual Navigation by
Navatlas.
Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with US Map
Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while waiting in the
car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), built-in MP3 player,
approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X 240 resolution, Windows CE
NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module,
Bi-Color LED left/right turn indicators (lights flash when you need to turn
either direction) compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn
instructions with voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes,
9 level selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download
pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal speakers, and
3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember right). Also has a soft
carry case and a downloadable DVD with Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto
Rico maps.
I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has internal
speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF modulator so music
could be played back over your vehicles speaker system.
Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy something
that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price of this thing I
would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a 496 or something else.
Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. For the price difference I'd
take my glasses off for an instant to look at the unit. I have had it in
direct sunlight and it has a very readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!!
Good luck hunting,
Bill Britton
RV-10 Emp #40137
----- Original Message -----
From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
> <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>
> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
>
> Smitty
> http://SmittysRV.com
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>
> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and
> we
> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>>
>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
> as
>> the
>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
>> used.
>> Recommendations?
>>
>> Tedd McHenry
>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
> --
> 9:58 PM
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: GPS for Cars |
Whoops, that was supposed to be off-list. Sorry everyone!
-Rob
do not archive
On 12:00 2007-02-05 "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca> wrote:
>
> On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars,
> > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental
> > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the
> > portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations?
>
> Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw).
> They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling
> somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's
> capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the
> use-in-your-car models.
>
> Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their
> other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more
> weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might
> translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around
> in air, for example).
>
> But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do
> turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I
> haven't done that.
>
> -Rob
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | RVAtor Article Needed |
Ill pick mine up tonight and scan it tomorrow, if someone else hasnt done
it by then
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped
keeping them
I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was
answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that
about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the
tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and
wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in
advance.
PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling.
John at Salida, CO
n1cxo320@salidaco.com <mailto:n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
--
9:58 PM
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Bill & Tami Britton wrote:
>
> I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them
> to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo
> setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than
> the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the
> $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this
> thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the
> $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount
> for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V).
> The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas.
Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a 12V
battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work ......
just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from Radio Shack.
Linn
>
>
> Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with
> US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while
> waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart),
> built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X
> 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz
> processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn
> indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction)
> compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with
> voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level
> selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download
> pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal
> speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember
> right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with
> Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps.
>
> I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has
> internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF
> modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker
> system.
>
> Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy
> something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price
> of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a
> 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing.
> For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to
> look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very
> readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!!
>
> Good luck hunting,
> Bill Britton
> RV-10 Emp #40137
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>> <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>>
>> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
>> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm
>> getting
>> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
>>
>> Smitty
>> http://SmittysRV.com
>>
>>
>> Original Message:
>> -----------------
>> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
>> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>>
>>
>>
>> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530
>> and
>> we
>> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper
>> model
>> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen
>> that you
>> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
>>
>> do not archive
>> )_( Dan
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry"
>> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
>> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
>>
>> as
>>
>>> the
>>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was
>>> quite
>>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to
>>> what I
>>> used.
>>> Recommendations?
>>>
>>> Tedd McHenry
>>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
>> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 9:58 PM
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RVAtor Article Needed |
Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find
it...would really appreicate it. Thanks again
John n1cxo320@salidaco.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
On 14:01 2007-02-05 linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > My only complaint is it
> > does not have a home charger (120V).
>
> Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a
> 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work
> ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from
> Radio Shack.
Caution!
Most car outlets are capable of putting out 8A, or higher. Your GPS may be
designed to rapid charge by drawing a high current from your cigarette
lighter. If that's the case, you would need an AC wall adapter capable of
putting out 8A at 12V, and that'll be both large and expensive.
Check the GPS itself, and see what the rating is for the DC input. It
should be stamped on the unit somewhere, but if not it'll be in the manual.
Look for the voltage and current ratings. You need to buy a wall-wart
that matches the voltage exactly, and puts out at least that much current
(higher won't hurt, the unit will only draw what it needs). For example,
if it says 12V/300mA, buying a 12V/500mA wall supply will work just fine
(and it may be hard to find a 300mA supply anyway).
Other than that, make sure you get + and - right. You could destroy your
nice little GPS if you get it backwards and the GPS isn't designed to
handle it.
-Rob
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RVAtor Article Needed |
Using the handy, dandy RVator index (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
RV listers,
Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous
inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I
don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns &
questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit
from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
======= BEGIN Don's Response ======
Dan,
It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the
cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems
that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like
he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that
are strictly in his control.
You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control
valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you
have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started
our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel
injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the
inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project
engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew
that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower
requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we
wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed
the present fuel regulator concept.
Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw
back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of
overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without
sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul
cost.
Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were
expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you
used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the
parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were
easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to
control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand
lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore
that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out
of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we
could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the
material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve
gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had
any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service.
The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause
galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test,
and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve
there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0
leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision
was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture
valve was not required.
Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection
like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that
the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on
the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire
wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and
nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system
was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor.
You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to
run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep
the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique,
many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on
engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer
through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder
Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide
open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel
pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be
.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never
get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is
another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of
the firewall.
The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel
and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the
hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an
aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system
worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also
the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure
when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine
after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after
shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure
against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started
and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this
now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing.
Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a
fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design
in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter
service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks
above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be
robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve
bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been
used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few
million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not
lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design,
that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting
of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold
the valve.
So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control
and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that
we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo
was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues
that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old
design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a
reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You
bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably
not, with the market as it is today.
======= END Don's Response ======
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Great response!!! Thanks Dan & Don! This is the education I was
looking for. I've saved the email so that I can revisit it when the
time comes to decide what I'm going to do with my installation. This
email should put some of the urban legend stuff to bed.
In all my dealings with engines over the years, I learned that there are
methods of starting an engine that woprk, and those that don't. I
developed a great set of abs and stomach muscles learning to prop my
Pitts ..... unfortunately, I learned to prop it the easy way! :-P
Again, thanks to Dan & Don.
Linn
do not archive
Dan Checkoway wrote:
>
> RV listers,
>
>
> Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my
> previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in
> ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to
> address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his
> response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt
> this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the
> design's history.
snip
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit
is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You
can program what areas you want to cover. I live in
Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the
database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage
for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there
are a lot of other programs available as well.
If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit
that includes the car kit accessories.
I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot
keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to
follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to
establish routes on roads while flying, but I would
not use this unit for AIRNAV.
Dave Nellis
N410DN (Res.)
RV7A Slider
--- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS
> units for cars, such as the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a
> rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
> systems are to what I used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
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