Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
2. 06:26 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce update (n801bh@netzero.com)
3. 06:44 AM - How do you like your engine monitor? (Bob Collins)
4. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (n801bh@netzero.com)
5. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette)
6. 07:18 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway)
7. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
8. 07:25 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Lockamy, Jack L)
9. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Ron Lee)
10. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Gerry Filby)
11. 07:42 AM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins)
12. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
13. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins)
14. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Dale Ensing)
15. 08:20 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dale Ensing)
16. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan Checkoway)
17. 08:30 AM - 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Bill Dube)
18. 08:31 AM - Exactly why we publish 24 Years of the RVator (Andy Gold)
19. 09:11 AM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette)
20. 09:15 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Terry Watson)
21. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Gerry Filby)
22. 10:45 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 (Nick Gaglia)
23. 10:45 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 (Nick Gaglia)
24. 10:54 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Ron Lee)
25. 11:14 AM - Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Jim Sears)
26. 11:18 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Aircraft Spruce Info)
27. 11:46 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Don)
28. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette)
29. 12:11 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry)
30. 12:11 PM - ground GPS (JOHN STARN)
31. 12:26 PM - Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Bill Dube)
32. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Konrad L. Werner)
33. 12:33 PM - Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Bill Dube)
34. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Tim Bryan)
35. 01:17 PM - RvAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
36. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
37. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Joseph Larson)
38. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Brian Meyette)
39. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
40. 02:28 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Bruce Gray)
41. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Tim Bryan)
42. 03:02 PM - Fuel Injection (Wheeler North)
43. 03:20 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Kyle Boatright)
44. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Kevin Horton)
45. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: JPI was Aircraft Spruce update (Tim Bryan)
46. 04:58 PM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
47. 06:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave B)
48. 09:15 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Steven DiNieri)
49. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Konrad L. Werner)
50. 10:27 PM - Aircraft Spruce Experience (Paul Trotter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Hmm. Spout off? Sensationalize? That's interesting. I have been bringing
my experience to the table in an effort to educate the users. Yes, I did
not safety wire the screws, neither did the off field failure. I have
received 2 listers off messages that they read these posts and also
found their screws now safety wired. Im not here to spout off. Im here
to learn, engage in useful dialogue, and educate where I can based on my
experience.
Im not an AFP basher. Dons a bright guy with an excellent product, one
that I use on my plane.
I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with
the screws safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow
divider and fuel servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but
not the purge valve. Leaving this up to the installer can lead to a
failure to do so. With many things on an airplane, this cant be avoided.
But with this purge valve, I think it can be done simply. How many
accidents do we need before it changes from dumb user error, to design
change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can be avoided, does
not sound like good practice.
Just my 2 cents.
Best,
Mie
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
RV listers,
Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my
previous
inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak.
I
don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns
&
questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would
benefit
from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
======= BEGIN Don's Response ======
Dan,
It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the
cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It
seems
that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off
like
he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events
that
are strictly in his control.
You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture
control
valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design
you
have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we
started
our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel
injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of
the
inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the
project
engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we
knew
that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of
horsepower
requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that
we
wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we
designed
the present fuel regulator concept.
Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big
draw
back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost
of
overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count
without
sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and
overhaul
cost.
Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves
were
expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless
you
used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the
parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand
were
easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy
to
control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be
hand
lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore
that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost
out
of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and
we
could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the
material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the
valve
gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't
had
any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of
service.
The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can
cause
galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after
test,
and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary
valve
there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot
be 0
leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the
decision
was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak
mixture
valve was not required.
Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel
injection
like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined
that
the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components
on
the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the
fire
wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider,
and
nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering
system
was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and
vapor.
You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had
to
run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to
keep
the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this
technique,
many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on
engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would
transfer
through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4
cylinder
Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle
wide
open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven
fuel
pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be
.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will
never
get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This
is
another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side
of
the firewall.
The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot
fuel
and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure
the
hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an
aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The
system
worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold.
Also
the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel
pressure
when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine
after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after
shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump
pressure
against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage
started
and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about
this
now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same
thing.
Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a
fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what
design
in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter
service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel
tanks
above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet
be
robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the
valve
bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been
used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a
few
million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was
not
lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same
design,
that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the
venting
of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to
hold
the valve.
So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture
control
and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements
that
we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status
quo
was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the
issues
that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old
design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed
for a
reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You
bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems?
Probably
not, with the market as it is today.
======= END Don's Response ======
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Well, I was wrong when I said that Jim Irwin would not follow through an
d investigate my problem with ACS. He did and contacted me with this "
Ben: Thanks for your quick reply and your understanding. I am sure that
the lack of the return tag was simply an oversight by whoever handled t
his matter 3 years ago. All of our staff is very busy on a day to day ba
sis and they probably just forgot to do the last step in the process, wh
ich was to be sure to get the "short" tubing picked up. If you were char
ged for the replacement tubing but never credited for the first shipment
(because it was not returned), please let me know the approximate amount
of the replacement invoice so we can reimburse you. I appreciate your
kind words and am sorry that we could not get this resolved years ago. T
hanks in advance for letting the RV readers know that we have discussed
the problem. I hope that we can be of service to you sometime soon. Let
me know what the cost was on that tubing! Best Regards, Jim IrwinAircraf
t Spruce
///////////////////////////////////////////
This the good ol ACS I rememeber when I first started my project. I hope
it stays this way because I need ALOT of 4130 tubing and other stuff fo
r the firewall forward packages I am about to selling. The Murphy Moose
and the Bearcat kits are first. I don't even want to start on the RV-10
customers yet, those will outsell the others by 5-1.
Thanks Jim for your leg work in correcting my bad experience with ACS.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try i
t now.
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<html><P>Well, I was wrong when I said that Jim Irwin would not follow t
hrough and investigate my problem with ACS. He did and contacted me with
this "</P>
<P> </P>
<P>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width=7> </TD>
<TD>
<P align=justify>
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<TD bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ben:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for your quick reply and your un
derstanding. I am sure that the lack of the return tag was simply an ove
rsight by whoever handled this matter 3 years ago. All of our staff is v
ery busy on a day to day basis and they probably just forgot to do the l
ast step in the process, which was to be sure to get the "short" tubing
picked up. If you were charged for the replacement tubing but never cred
ited for the first shipment(because it was not returned), please let me
know the approximate amount of the replacement invoice so we can reimbur
se you. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I appreciate your kind words and am sor
ry that we could not get this resolved years ago. Thanks in advance for
letting the RV readers know that we have discussed the problem. I hope t
hat we can be of service to you sometime soon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let me know what the cost was on that t
ubing!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jim Irwin</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Aircraft Spruce</FONT></DIV></TD></TR><
/TBODY></TABLE></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P>
<P>///////////////////////////////////////////</P>
<P>This the good ol ACS I rememeber when I first started my project. I h
ope it stays this way because I need ALOT of 4130 tubing and other stuff
for the firewall forward packages I am about to selling. The Murphy Moo
se and the Bearcat kits are first. I don't even want to start on the RV-
10 customers yet, those will outsell the others by 5-1.</P>
<P> Thanks Jim for your leg work in correcting my bad experience wi
th ACS. <BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair.com&nbs
p;<BR>Any questions? Get answers on any to
pic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
========================
- The RV-List E
sp;many List utilities such as the Subscri
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- NEW MATRONICS 
now also available via the Web Forums!<BR>
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==========</P>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | How do you like your engine monitor? |
As some of you know, I was intrigued reading this month's Kitplanes Magazine article
on engine monitors. I thought it was a very good introduction to what they
are and why builders should install them.
It made me want to learn more and I'm sure that's the case with other builders
too. The article didn't really do much in terms of a comparison because, as Marc
Cook (editor) said on VAF, doing so would require getting various engine monitors
in one place and then having the time to test each of them out; financially
and practically out of the reach of most folks.
While I agree with people who say "this is something you have to learn on your
own," I think there's value in the experiences of those who've already gone before.
So... like the transition training questionaire (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/transition_training.html) a few weeks ago for a piece in the RV Builder's Hotline, I'd like to do the same thing with engine monitors.
So, if you have one, these are the questions:
1. What engine monitor did you go with.
2. In your research, what did you determine to be your priorities?
3. Have you been satisfied with it? If so, what features do you like best?
4. What do you like least about it?
5. What was your total cost?
6. Is there anything you would do differently?
7. anything else?
Please send me the email off list (you can post it here too if you want but it'll
be easier for me to pluck 'em off email so do that too) at rvnewsletter@comcast.net.
Also if you have a picture of you and your bird, can you email that to me too?
And thanks!
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93184#93184
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to l
et the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a home
built experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pi
lot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a s
idebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with
the fact the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If
there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this
and reverse the award.
off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype.
do not archive
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible ar
guments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into t
he instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge
's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I
don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long ar
ticle, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more in
formation. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that
the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself
of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal syst
em is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now
is people not informing themselves when the information is available, an
d then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmi
res doing that.Do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arg
uments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into th
e instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge'
s call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I d
on't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long art
icle, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more inf
ormation. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that
the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself
of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal syste
m is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now i
s people not informing themselves when the information is available, and
then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmir
========================
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======
<html><P>I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense
team to let the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flyi
ng a homebuilt experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being
if the pilot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have dem
anded a sidebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get cha
rged with the fact the pilot crashed on his own and started the wh
ole event. If there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court
would see this and reverse the award.</P>
<P>off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype.</P>
<P>do not archive</P>
<P>
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<TD>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=281380814-05022007><FONT face=
Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Well, to the original point, like I said,
the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (incl
uding assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge
decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those i
diots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained
the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents availabl
e to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read
any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent wi
thout doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the f
irst place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But
what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing the
mselves when the information is available, and then acting on their igno
rance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><PRE><SPAN class=281380814-05022007><FONT fa
ce=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> You can get yourself into a fe
w quagmires doing that.</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN class=281380814-
05022007>Do not archive</SPAN></PRE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P></TD><
/TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspower
air.com<BR><BR>-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.
net> wrote:<BR></P>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=281380814-05022007><FONT face=
Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Well, to the original point, like I said,
the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (incl
uding assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge
decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those i
diots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained
the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents availabl
e to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read
any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent wi
thout doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the f
irst place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But
what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing the
mselves when the information is available, and then acting on their igno
rance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><PRE><SPAN class=281380814-05022007><FONT fa
ce=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> You can get yourself into a fe
w quagmires doing that.</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN class=281380814-
05022007>Do not archive</SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN class=281380814-0502200
7> </SPAN></PRE><PRE><B><FONT face="courier new,courier" color=
#000000 size=2>
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tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List</A>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RVAtor Article Needed |
Aha - I was unable to find it last night - I looked through all issues of
2004 and 2005. Apparently I didn't go back far enough
Thanks for the tip on the Rvator index. I will add a link to it on my web
site.
If the original requestor still needs it, I will get it and scan it later
this afternoon
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
Using the handy, dandy RVator index
(http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want
the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
--
9:58 PM
--
4:48 PM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
Don't think I saw a reply to this yet. The 396/496 have been no problem
with polarized sunglasses.
FWIW, the only thing I have real trouble with when wearing polarized lenses
is my old ipod. And my Dynon EFIS-D10 washes out a little if you tilt your
head way over...but when my head is "straight & level" it's no problem.
Everything else in my panel is unaffected, including the AF-2500 engine
monitor.
My steam gauges are also unaffected! ;-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
www.rvproject.com
www.weathermeister.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
What exactly did you expect the defense team to do when the judge barred the
jury instructions, pull out a gun? It seems to me they're availing
themselves every legal remedy at their disposal; hardly indicative of
incompetence.
and, again, if you read the papers, you'd see that the EAA did, in fact,
argue that Corbitt was the cause of the crash, and you'd also read that it
was the one thing EVERYONE agreed on. However, without the proper jury
instructions -- as I see it -- that point would be irrelevant.
the chain of events that "start" a persons death don't relieve the
responsibility of others do their job. Otherwise we can all save a lot of
tax money by disbanding our police, medical, and fire teams. A crook broke
into your home? don't call the cops. YOU chose to live there. Wrap yourself
around the tree. Suffer, sucker, you shouldn't have been out driving.
If you read the papers, you'll see that that the two sides were talking
about two different incidents and it came down to whether (1) Corbitt was
alive when the fire department arrive and (2) whether the fire department
gave rip about #1.
What caused the crash wasn't much of an argument because it wasn't one of
the questions. And in a court of law, unfortunately, the law is what
matters. I suspect the EAA attorneys, simply because they ARE competent,
will have more success before another judge. I also would think Snohomish
County would take another look at a system where several judges pop in and
out of one case. That, to me, is what sunk the EAA in this case.
When the music stopped, the wrong judge was sitting in the chair.
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:55 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let
the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt
experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot
becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar
till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact
the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If there is a
silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse
the award.
off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype.
do not archive
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible
arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the
instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's
call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't
know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I
even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.
You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team
was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did
in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction.
But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing
themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their
ignorance.
You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.
Do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible
arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the
instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's
call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't
know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I
even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.
You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team
was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did
in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction.
But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing
themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their
ignorance.
You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.
Do not archive
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
===================================
tronics.com
===================================
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
I just purchased and installed a Garmin 7200 in my Titan P/U. Was using
the Garmin 196 until now. The -7200 is expensive but worth every penny
I paid for it!
Jack
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
At 07:55 AM 2/6/2007, you wrote:
>I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let
>the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt
>experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot
>becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar
>till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact
>the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If there is a
>silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse
>the award.
My one beef with your statement is the assumption that "homebuilt
experimental" is more
hazardous than a Cessna type aircraft. Take a Cessna, secure the yoke full
aft with
a seatbelt and the outcome would probably be the same as with an RV.
In my opinion, if that is what happened in this case then it was pure 100%
pilot error.
Ron Lee
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put together a talk
on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number of installations out
there at this point ...
g
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 04:24 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
>
>
>RV listers,
>
>
>Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous
>inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I
>don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns &
>questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
>permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit
>from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
>
>
>======= BEGIN Don's Response ======
>
>
>Dan,
>
>
>It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the
>cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems
>that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like
>he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that
>are strictly in his control.
>
>
>You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control
>valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you
>have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started
>our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel
>injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the
>inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project
>engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
>problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew
>that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower
>requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we
>wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed
>the present fuel regulator concept.
>
>
>Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw
>back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of
>overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without
>sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul
>cost.
>
>
>Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were
>expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you
>used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the
>parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were
>easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to
>control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand
>lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
>tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore
>that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out
>of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we
>could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the
>material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve
>gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had
>any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service.
>The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause
>galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test,
>and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve
>there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0
>leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
>regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
>additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision
>was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture
>valve was not required.
>
>
>Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
>injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection
>like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that
>the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on
>the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
>pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire
>wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and
>nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system
>was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor.
>You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to
>run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep
>the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique,
>many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
>culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
>control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on
>engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer
>through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder
>Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
>transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide
>open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel
>pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be
>.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never
>get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is
>another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of
>the firewall.
>
>
>The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel
>and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the
>hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an
>aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system
>worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also
>the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure
>when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine
>after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
>pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after
>shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure
>against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started
>and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this
>now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing.
>Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
>
>
>The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a
>fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design
>in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter
>service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
>vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks
>above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be
>robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve
>bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been
>used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few
>million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
>malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not
>lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design,
>that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
>designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting
>of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold
>the valve.
>
>
>So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control
>and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that
>we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo
>was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues
>that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old
>design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a
>reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You
>bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
>associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably
>not, with the market as it is today.
>
>
>======= END Don's Response ======
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RVAtor Article Needed |
Whew, I was just about to walk out the door on my way to work. Good timing, so
I grabbed it. It was actually written by Evan Johnson. I'll either scan it or
retype it today when I'm goofing off at work.
brianpublic2(at)starband. wrote:
> Aha - I was unable to find it last night - I looked through all issues of
> 2004 and 2005. Apparently I didn't go back far enough
> Thanks for the tip on the Rvator index. I will add a link to it on my web
> site.
> If the original requestor still needs it, I will get it and scan it later
> this afternoon
> brian
>
> --
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93213#93213
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
//In my opinion, if that is what happened in this case then it was pure 100%
pilot error.
The cause of the accident -- at the moment -- is not the subject of the
court case.
Do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RVAtor Article Needed |
Whoops, My mistake. I originally read that you couldn't find the article.
I'll stand down.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Meyette
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
--> <brianpublic2@starband.net>
Aha - I was unable to find it last night - I looked through all issues of
2004 and 2005. Apparently I didn't go back far enough
Thanks for the tip on the Rvator index. I will add a link to it on my web
site.
If the original requestor still needs it, I will get it and scan it later
this afternoon brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
Using the handy, dandy RVator index
(http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want
the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
--
9:58 PM
--
4:48 PM
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
I also would think Snohomish County would take another look at a
system where several judges pop in and out of one case. That, to me, is
what sunk the EAA in this case.
When the music stopped, the wrong judge was sitting in the chair.
I was rather perplexed while serving as jury Forman a few years ago
when the Judge seemed biased during a criminal trial and he was rather
friendly with the prosecutor. It made me want to lean the other way! The
judge can be remiss in his/her duties as can the first responders to an
accident. One of the reasons why we have Appeals Courts.
Dale Ensing
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
FWIW, the only thing I have real trouble with when wearing polarized lenses
is my old ipod.
......and the self serve gas pumps.
do not archive
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Pretty sure Don actually used to offer "Fuel Injection 101" classes.
The http://www.airflowperformance.com web site has an online thing for
it, but I coulda sworn he held occasional weekend classes at their
facility in the past. Don't quote me on that...
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Gerry Filby
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put
together a talk on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number
of installations out there at this point ...
g
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 04:24 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
>
>
>RV listers,
>
>
>
>Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my
previous
>inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO
leak. I
>don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address
concerns &
>questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
>permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would
benefit
>from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
>
>
>
>======= BEGIN Don's Response ======
>
>
>
>Dan,
>
>
>
>It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly
the
>cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It
seems
>that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout
off like
>he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events
that
>are strictly in his control.
>
>
>
>You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture
control
>valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this
design you
>have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we
started
>our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft
fuel
>injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of
the
>inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the
project
>engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
>problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we
knew
>that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of
horsepower
>requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that
we
>wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we
designed
>the present fuel regulator concept.
>
>
>
>Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the
big draw
>back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high
cost of
>overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count
without
>sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and
overhaul
>cost.
>
>
>
>Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves
were
>expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring
unless you
>used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making
the
>parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand
were
>easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were
easy to
>control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be
hand
>lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
>tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through
bore
>that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting
cost out
>of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight
and we
>could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as
the
>material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the
valve
>gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't
had
>any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of
service.
>The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can
cause
>galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after
test,
>and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary
valve
>there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO
cannot be 0
>leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
>regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
>additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the
decision
>was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak
mixture
>valve was not required.
>
>
>
>Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
>injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel
injection
>like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined
that
>the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system
components on
>the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
>pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of
the fire
>wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow
divider, and
>nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering
system
>was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and
vapor.
>You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you
had to
>run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system
to keep
>the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this
technique,
>many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
>culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
>control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based
on
>engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would
transfer
>through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4
cylinder
>Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
>transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the
throttle wide
>open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven
fuel
>pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would
be
>.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will
never
>get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This
is
>another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine
side of
>the firewall.
>
>
>
>The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot
fuel
>and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would
cure the
>hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in
an
>aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The
system
>worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or
cold. Also
>the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel
pressure
>when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the
engine
>after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
>pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box
after
>shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump
pressure
>against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage
started
>and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about
this
>now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same
thing.
>Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
>
>
>
>The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch
with a
>fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what
design
>in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at
helicopter
>service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
>vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel
tanks
>above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible,
yet be
>robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the
valve
>bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had
been
>used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a
few
>million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
>malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it
was not
>lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same
design,
>that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
>designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the
venting
>of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to
hold
>the valve.
>
>
>
>So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture
control
>and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements
that
>we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status
quo
>was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the
issues
>that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same
40-year-old
>design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed
for a
>reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it?
You
>bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
>associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems?
Probably
>not, with the market as it is today.
>
>
>
>======= END Don's Response ======
>
>
>
>
===========
===========
===========
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery |
Well, I said I was going to do it and we finally got the prototype built.
We just built a 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr, battery that weighs just
3.7 pounds. I've been testing it in my GMC van for the past week here
in the Denver Winter. It snaps the van right over every morning
without a problem. The van cranks faster than it did with the
standard lead-acid battery.
It is smaller than the Odyssey 680 so it fit in the same battery box
with a couple of foam blocks for spacers.
The battery has four status LEDs that tell you the cell balancing
electronics are working OK. We are using A123 Systems M1 cells with
our own custom battery management electronics. The A123 Systems cells
are proven to be the safest Li-Ion cells on the market. No problems
with fires (like laptop cells) because the chemistry they use is
completely different.
The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like
leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a
long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It
will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly
as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last
you for many years.
I think we will be in production in about a month, maybe two.
Specs:
3.7 lbs
600 cranking amps
11.5 amp-hr
Approximate maximum dimensions: 3" wide, 5" long, 7" tall (including
terminals)
Charging voltage = 13.8 to 15.0 volts (anywhere in this range is OK)
Nominal voltage = 13.2 volts (Just a touch higher than your typical
lead-acid, so it spins the starter a touch faster.)
Cell cycle life rated at 2000 cycles (80% DOD, 90% capacity
remaining) 10,000 cycles (80% DOD with 50% capacity remaining) @25 C
Cell specs:
<http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf>http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf
Maintenance free
No heavy metals (iron-phosphate type cells)
At this time, we estimate the retail price will be $595. (Yeah, I
know this is not cheap, but this is the state-of-the-art battery
technology so the parts to make it are not cheap.)
Here is a picture of the prototype. We have it in a clear Lexan case
so we can keep an eye on it. The production battery will have a
smaller opaque case with a clear top lid (terminal end.)
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/aircraft-battery/Prototype1InVan.JPG
We have been racing these cells in the KillaCycle for about a year,
so we know _all_ about them.
<http://www.KillaCycle.com>http://www.KillaCycle.com (Be sure to
watch the movie clip.)
Bill Dube'
<mailto:bike@KillaCycle.com>bike@KillaCycle.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Exactly why we publish 24 Years of the RVator |
Exactly why we wrote and Publish the 24 Years of the RVator book.
Andy
Builder's Bookstore
www.buildersbooks.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 3:34 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
>
> Using the handy, dandy RVator index
> (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you
> want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
>
> I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | RVAtor Article Needed |
Here ya go
brian
http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find it...would
really appreicate it. Thanks again
John n1cxo320@salidaco.com <mailto:n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
--
4:48 PM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses
were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain
orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all
or too much light and therefore vision.
Was that all wrong?
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
Don't think I saw a reply to this yet. The 396/496 have been no problem
with polarized sunglasses.
FWIW, the only thing I have real trouble with when wearing polarized lenses
is my old ipod. And my Dynon EFIS-D10 washes out a little if you tilt your
head way over...but when my head is "straight & level" it's no problem.
Everything else in my panel is unaffected, including the AF-2500 engine
monitor.
My steam gauges are also unaffected! ;-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
www.rvproject.com
www.weathermeister.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Looks like there's a class beginning of March and November ... hmm, Marc
h isn't going to be doable for me ...
g
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 08:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Pretty sure Don actually used to offer "Fuel Injection 101" classes. The
http://www.airflowperformance.com web site has an online thing for it, bu
t I coulda sworn he held occasional weekend classes at their facility in
the past. Don't quote me on that...
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From:Gerry Filby
To:rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put togeth
er a talk on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number of inst
allations out there at this point ...
g
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 04:24 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
>
>
>RV listers,
>
>
>Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previ
ous
>inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I
>don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns
&
>questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
>permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefi
t
>from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
>
>
>======= BEGIN Don's Response ======
>
>
>Dan,
>
>
>It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the
>cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It se
ems
>that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off l
ike
>he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events tha
t
>are strictly in his control.
>
>
>You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture cont
rol
>valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design
you
>have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we start
ed
>our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel
>injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of th
e
>inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the pro
ject
>engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
>problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we kn
ew
>that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsep
ower
>requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we
>wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designe
d
>the present fuel regulator concept.
>
>
>Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big
draw
>back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost
of
>overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count witho
ut
>sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhau
l
>cost.
>
>
>Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves wer
e
>expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless y
ou
>used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the
>parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were
>easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy t
o
>control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be ha
nd
>lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
>tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore
>that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost
out
>of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and
we
>could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the
>material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valv
e
>gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't ha
d
>any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service
.
>The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can caus
e
>galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after tes
t,
>and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary val
ve
>there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot
be 0
>leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
>regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
>additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the deci
sion
>was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixtu
re
>valve was not required.
>
>
>Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
>injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel inject
ion
>like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that
>the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components
on
>the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
>pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the
fire
>wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider,
and
>nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering sys
tem
>was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor
.
>You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had t
o
>run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to k
eep
>the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique
,
>many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
>culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
>control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on
>engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would tran
sfer
>through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylin
der
>Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
>transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle w
ide
>open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel
>pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be
>.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never
>get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is
>another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side
of
>the firewall.
>
>
>The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fu
el
>and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure
the
>hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an
>aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The syst
em
>worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. A
lso
>the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressur
e
>when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine
>after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
>pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after
>shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump press
ure
>against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage star
ted
>and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about th
is
>now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thi
ng.
>Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
>
>
>The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a
>fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what desi
gn
>in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter
>service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
>vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tank
s
>above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet
be
>robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve
>bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been
>used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a fe
w
>million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
>malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was
not
>lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same desi
gn,
>that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
>designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the vent
ing
>of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hol
d
>the valve.
>
>
>So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control
>and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements tha
t
>we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status qu
o
>was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues
>that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old
>design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for
a
>reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You
>bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
>associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Proba
bly
>not, with the market as it is today.
>
>
>======= END Don's Response ======
>
>
===========
===========
===========
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
Message 22
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| Subject: | RE: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 |
I have had the Nuvi 660 for a week and love it, much better that the Hertz
Magellan, never lost, which I use regular.
Nuvi 660 has large screen, small enough to slip in a coat pocket, no wires.
You can see one at Best Buy.
Regards
Nick
RV-8
-----Original Message-----
From: RV-List Digest Server [mailto:rv-list@matronics.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:58 PM
Subject: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
07-02-05&Archive=RV
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2007-02-05&Archive=RV
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
RV-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 02/05/07: 21
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen)
2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
3. 08:19 AM - Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum (Mitchell Faatz)
4. 09:55 AM - RV6A Project for Sale (Gene Gottschalk)
5. 10:13 AM - Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry)
6. 10:38 AM - Texas Visit (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI)
7. 11:12 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway)
8. 11:48 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (bill shook)
9. 11:58 AM - Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
10. 12:42 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (smitty@smittysrv.com)
11. 01:01 PM - RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
12. 01:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Bill & Tami Britton)
13. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
14. 01:49 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette)
15. 01:58 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (linn Walters)
16. 02:28 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
17. 02:34 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
18. 02:35 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins)
19. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan
Checkoway)
20. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (linn
Walters)
21. 08:53 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave Nellis)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 05:13:52 AM PST US
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
If the instructions were faulty, the defense attorneys were more
culpable than that. Jury instructions are not extemporaneous.
Competing instructions are submitted to the Judge, he blends them
together, the blended instructions are then given to the attorneys to
give them an opportunity to object, then they are given to the Jury.
However, if they may well have objected to the addition, or omission, of
parts of the instructions and the Judge decided against them. Of
course, the challenge to the instructions can then be a basis for an
appeal. It's never simple.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
Those instructions were given in open court in front of the defense,
plaintiff, jury and anyone in the courtroom. The legal team for the EAA
and the Arlington flyin were grossly negligent in their duties. One of
those idiots should have spoke up and objected right then...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
// The jury is there to act as a check on defective and illogical laws.
When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as most jurors do, you
preserve these defective laws. The same goes for those who vote for and
support clearly unconstitutional laws. My guess is that this includes
many here who complain loudly about this particular case in which their
own person ox was gored.
As the article pointe dout (and I sure hope folks read it), the problem
in this case wasn't identified as the instructions the jurors got; it
was the the instructions the jurors DIDN'T get.
Do not archive.
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
tronics.com
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 06:15:06 AM PST US
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible
arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the
instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's
call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't
know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I
even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.
You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team
was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did
in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction.
But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing
themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their
ignorance.
You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.
Do not archive
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 08:19:06 AM PST US
From: Mitchell Faatz <mitch@skybound.com>
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum
Okay, I'm at whit's end. I've spend the last couple weeks trying to
track down a high pitched "hum" on the NAV 1 audio coming from my new
Garmin 430. I have the Approach Systems Pro-G hub and cable harnesses,
which they just replaced to see if that solves the hum (the hum would
cut in and out when I tugged on the harness so I suspected the
harness). Well, I just spent several more hours installing the new
harness to where I could test it, and the hum is now there all the
time. Wiggling the harness no longer makes the hum cut in and out :(
I've done further troubleshooting:
- all Circuit Breaks pulled except NAV (10amp) and COM (5 amp)
- all fuses pulled (everything off except Garmin 430)
- everything in hangar turned off (lights, heaters, etc)
- tried both switching power supply and aircraft battery.
- probed pin 23 on hub AUDIO PANEL HD44, hearing hum
- probed pin 10 on COMM 1 cable going to HD26, hearing hum
- pulled EVERY ground off forest-of-tabs grounding block except battery
contactor, still hearing hum
- swapped Garmin 430's with my hangar mate, still hearing hum.
SO, it seems like the radio is not the problem, and the only thing
between the radio and the headphones is the wire harness! Which is the
second one from Approach Systems, I can't imagine it also has a problem
but you never know. Here's another funny thing, even with all the
grounds pulled off the Garmin 430 it's still running, does it get
grounded through the case and/or plug shields?
P.S. Approach Systems gets an A+++ in my book, they have been extremely
responsive to my emails even on weekends.
Help!
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 09:55:22 AM PST US
From: Gene Gottschalk <geneg@sled.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RV-List: RV6A Project for Sale
Includes:
empanage - done
wings - done except for starboard main skins
fuselage - bottom done, ready to fit wings, includes metal jig
finishing kit - not started
almost every option Vans offers, sliding canopy, electric and manual flaps,
etc.
flight instruments, strobes, 5 point harnesses,
many other parts, too many to mention here
all documents and logs
contact me back channel for complete listing and pricing
Gene Gottschalk
miranda@tartan30.org
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 10:13:42 AM PST US
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
the
Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
used.
Recommendations?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
DO NOT ARCHIVE
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 10:38:40 AM PST US
Subject: RV-List: Texas Visit
From: "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI"
<Neal.George@Hurlburt.AF.MIL>
Listers -
I have a TDY scheduled for Feb 26 - Mar 02 in San Antonio (Lackland).
We need a place to tie down a butt-ugly C-210.
Any recommendations?
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG (wiring)
Navarre, FL
W - 850-884-9121
C - 850-218-4838
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 11:12:10 AM PST US
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we
love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
(basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
> the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
> used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 11:48:49 AM PST US
From: bill shook <billshook2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Garmin c340.....very nice unit.
Bill
--- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 11:58:05 AM PST US
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars
On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars,
> such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental
> car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
> systems are to what I used. Recommendations?
Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). They
bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling somewhere in the
fall, and were extremely impressed with it's capabilities. I don't think
it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the use-in-your-car models.
Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their other
ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more weather-resistant. I
was thinking that the glove-usability might translate into good in-flight
usability (while you're bouncing around in air, for example).
But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do
turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I
haven't done that.
-Rob
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 12:42:50 PM PST US
From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
Smitty
http://SmittysRV.com
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and
we
love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
(basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
as
> the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
> used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 01:01:51 PM PST US
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and
stopped keeping them
I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and
was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned
that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening
the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more
and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in
advance.
PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling.
John at Salida, CO
n1cxo320@salidaco.com
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 01:37:34 PM PST US
From: "Bill & Tami Britton" <william@gbta.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them to
the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo setup from
Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than the others.
Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the $3500 optional big
screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this thing does everything
and more than it does. I think I paid in the $250 - 300 range. It's got a
car charger and stick on window mount for it. My only complaint is it does
not have a home charger (120V). The unit is called a Dual Navigation by
Navatlas.
Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with US Map
Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while waiting in the
car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), built-in MP3 player,
approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X 240 resolution, Windows CE
NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module,
Bi-Color LED left/right turn indicators (lights flash when you need to turn
either direction) compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn
instructions with voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes,
9 level selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download
pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal speakers, and
3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember right). Also has a soft
carry case and a downloadable DVD with Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto
Rico maps.
I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has internal
speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF modulator so music
could be played back over your vehicles speaker system.
Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy something
that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price of this thing I
would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a 496 or something else.
Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. For the price difference I'd
take my glasses off for an instant to look at the unit. I have had it in
direct sunlight and it has a very readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!!
Good luck hunting,
Bill Britton
RV-10 Emp #40137
----- Original Message -----
From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
> <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>
> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
>
> Smitty
> http://SmittysRV.com
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and
> we
> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>>
>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
> as
>> the
>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
>> used.
>> Recommendations?
>>
>> Tedd McHenry
>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
> --
> 9:58 PM
>
>
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 01:46:40 PM PST US
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars
Whoops, that was supposed to be off-list. Sorry everyone!
-Rob
do not archive
On 12:00 2007-02-05 "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca> wrote:
>
> On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars,
> > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental
> > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the
> > portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations?
>
> Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw).
> They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling
> somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's
> capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the
> use-in-your-car models.
>
> Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their
> other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more
> weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might
> translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around
> in air, for example).
>
> But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do
> turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I
> haven't done that.
>
> -Rob
>
>
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 01:49:38 PM PST US
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2@starband.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
Ill pick mine up tonight and scan it tomorrow, if someone else hasnt done
it by then
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped
keeping them
I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was
answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that
about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the
tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and
wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in
advance.
PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling.
John at Salida, CO
n1cxo320@salidaco.com <mailto:n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
--
9:58 PM
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 01:58:40 PM PST US
From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Bill & Tami Britton wrote:
>
> I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them
> to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo
> setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than
> the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the
> $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this
> thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the
> $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount
> for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V).
> The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas.
Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a 12V
battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work ......
just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from Radio Shack.
Linn
>
>
> Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with
> US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while
> waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart),
> built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X
> 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz
> processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn
> indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction)
> compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with
> voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level
> selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download
> pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal
> speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember
> right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with
> Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps.
>
> I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has
> internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF
> modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker
> system.
>
> Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy
> something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price
> of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a
> 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing.
> For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to
> look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very
> readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!!
>
> Good luck hunting,
> Bill Britton
> RV-10 Emp #40137
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>> <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>>
>> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
>> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm
>> getting
>> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
>>
>> Smitty
>> http://SmittysRV.com
>>
>>
>> Original Message:
>> -----------------
>> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
>> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>>
>>
>>
>> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530
>> and
>> we
>> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper
>> model
>> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen
>> that you
>> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
>>
>> do not archive
>> )_( Dan
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry"
>> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
>> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
>>
>> as
>>
>>> the
>>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was
>>> quite
>>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to
>>> what I
>>> used.
>>> Recommendations?
>>>
>>> Tedd McHenry
>>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
>> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 9:58 PM
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 02:28:37 PM PST US
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find
it...would really appreicate it. Thanks again
John n1cxo320@salidaco.com
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 02:34:41 PM PST US
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
On 14:01 2007-02-05 linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > My only complaint is it
> > does not have a home charger (120V).
>
> Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a
> 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work
> ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from
> Radio Shack.
Caution!
Most car outlets are capable of putting out 8A, or higher. Your GPS may be
designed to rapid charge by drawing a high current from your cigarette
lighter. If that's the case, you would need an AC wall adapter capable of
putting out 8A at 12V, and that'll be both large and expensive.
Check the GPS itself, and see what the rating is for the DC input. It
should be stamped on the unit somewhere, but if not it'll be in the manual.
Look for the voltage and current ratings. You need to buy a wall-wart
that matches the voltage exactly, and puts out at least that much current
(higher won't hurt, the unit will only draw what it needs). For example,
if it says 12V/300mA, buying a 12V/500mA wall supply will work just fine
(and it may be hard to find a 300mA supply anyway).
Other than that, make sure you get + and - right. You could destroy your
nice little GPS if you get it backwards and the GPS isn't designed to
handle it.
-Rob
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 02:35:00 PM PST US
Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Using the handy, dandy RVator index
(http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want
the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 04:26:11 PM PST US
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
RV listers,
Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous
inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I
don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns &
questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit
from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
======= BEGIN Don's Response =====
Dan,
It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the
cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems
that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like
he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that
are strictly in his control.
You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control
valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you
have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started
our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel
injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the
inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project
engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew
that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower
requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we
wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed
the present fuel regulator concept.
Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw
back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of
overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without
sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul
cost.
Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were
expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you
used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the
parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were
easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to
control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand
lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore
that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out
of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we
could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the
material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve
gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had
any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service.
The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause
galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test,
and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve
there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0
leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision
was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture
valve was not required.
Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection
like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that
the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on
the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire
wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and
nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system
was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor.
You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to
run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep
the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique,
many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on
engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer
through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder
Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide
open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel
pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be
.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never
get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is
another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of
the firewall.
The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel
and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the
hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an
aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system
worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also
the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure
when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine
after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after
shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure
against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started
and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this
now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing.
Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a
fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design
in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter
service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks
above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be
robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve
bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been
used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few
million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not
lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design,
that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting
of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold
the valve.
So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control
and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that
we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo
was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues
that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old
design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a
reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You
bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably
not, with the market as it is today.
======= END Don's Response =====
________________________________ Message 20
____________________________________
Time: 06:45:08 PM PST US
From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Great response!!! Thanks Dan & Don! This is the education I was
looking for. I've saved the email so that I can revisit it when the
time comes to decide what I'm going to do with my installation. This
email should put some of the urban legend stuff to bed.
In all my dealings with engines over the years, I learned that there are
methods of starting an engine that woprk, and those that don't. I
developed a great set of abs and stomach muscles learning to prop my
Pitts ..... unfortunately, I learned to prop it the easy way! :-P
Again, thanks to Dan & Don.
Linn
do not archive
Dan Checkoway wrote:
>
> RV listers,
>
>
> Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my
> previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in
> ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to
> address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his
> response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt
> this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the
> design's history.
snip
________________________________ Message 21
____________________________________
Time: 08:53:17 PM PST US
From: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit
is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You
can program what areas you want to cover. I live in
Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the
database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage
for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there
are a lot of other programs available as well.
If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit
that includes the car kit accessories.
I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot
keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to
follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to
establish routes on roads while flying, but I would
not use this unit for AIRNAV.
Dave Nellis
N410DN (Res.)
RV7A Slider
--- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS
> units for cars, such as the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a
> rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
> systems are to what I used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it
now.
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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|
| Subject: | RE: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 |
I have had the Nuvi 660 for a week and love it, much better that the Hertz
Magellan, never lost, which I use regular.
Nuvi 660 has large screen, small enough to slip in a coat pocket, no wires.
You can see one at Best Buy.
Regards
Nick
RV-8
-----Original Message-----
From: RV-List Digest Server [mailto:rv-list@matronics.com]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:58 PM
Subject: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=================================================
Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter
07-02-05&Archive=RV
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter
2007-02-05&Archive=RV
===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
===============================================
----------------------------------------------------------
RV-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 02/05/07: 21
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen)
2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins)
3. 08:19 AM - Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum (Mitchell Faatz)
4. 09:55 AM - RV6A Project for Sale (Gene Gottschalk)
5. 10:13 AM - Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry)
6. 10:38 AM - Texas Visit (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI)
7. 11:12 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway)
8. 11:48 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (bill shook)
9. 11:58 AM - Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
10. 12:42 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (smitty@smittysrv.com)
11. 01:01 PM - RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
12. 01:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Bill & Tami Britton)
13. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
14. 01:49 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette)
15. 01:58 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (linn Walters)
16. 02:28 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching)
17. 02:34 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior)
18. 02:35 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins)
19. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan
Checkoway)
20. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (linn
Walters)
21. 08:53 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave Nellis)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 05:13:52 AM PST US
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
If the instructions were faulty, the defense attorneys were more
culpable than that. Jury instructions are not extemporaneous.
Competing instructions are submitted to the Judge, he blends them
together, the blended instructions are then given to the attorneys to
give them an opportunity to object, then they are given to the Jury.
However, if they may well have objected to the addition, or omission, of
parts of the instructions and the Judge decided against them. Of
course, the challenge to the instructions can then be a basis for an
appeal. It's never simple.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
Those instructions were given in open court in front of the defense,
plaintiff, jury and anyone in the courtroom. The legal team for the EAA
and the Arlington flyin were grossly negligent in their duties. One of
those idiots should have spoke up and objected right then...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
// The jury is there to act as a check on defective and illogical laws.
When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as most jurors do, you
preserve these defective laws. The same goes for those who vote for and
support clearly unconstitutional laws. My guess is that this includes
many here who complain loudly about this particular case in which their
own person ox was gored.
As the article pointe dout (and I sure hope folks read it), the problem
in this case wasn't identified as the instructions the jurors got; it
was the the instructions the jurors DIDN'T get.
Do not archive.
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
tronics.com
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 06:15:06 AM PST US
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M
Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible
arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the
instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's
call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't
know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I
even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information.
You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team
was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did
in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction.
But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing
themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their
ignorance.
You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.
Do not archive
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 08:19:06 AM PST US
From: Mitchell Faatz <mitch@skybound.com>
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum
Okay, I'm at whit's end. I've spend the last couple weeks trying to
track down a high pitched "hum" on the NAV 1 audio coming from my new
Garmin 430. I have the Approach Systems Pro-G hub and cable harnesses,
which they just replaced to see if that solves the hum (the hum would
cut in and out when I tugged on the harness so I suspected the
harness). Well, I just spent several more hours installing the new
harness to where I could test it, and the hum is now there all the
time. Wiggling the harness no longer makes the hum cut in and out :(
I've done further troubleshooting:
- all Circuit Breaks pulled except NAV (10amp) and COM (5 amp)
- all fuses pulled (everything off except Garmin 430)
- everything in hangar turned off (lights, heaters, etc)
- tried both switching power supply and aircraft battery.
- probed pin 23 on hub AUDIO PANEL HD44, hearing hum
- probed pin 10 on COMM 1 cable going to HD26, hearing hum
- pulled EVERY ground off forest-of-tabs grounding block except battery
contactor, still hearing hum
- swapped Garmin 430's with my hangar mate, still hearing hum.
SO, it seems like the radio is not the problem, and the only thing
between the radio and the headphones is the wire harness! Which is the
second one from Approach Systems, I can't imagine it also has a problem
but you never know. Here's another funny thing, even with all the
grounds pulled off the Garmin 430 it's still running, does it get
grounded through the case and/or plug shields?
P.S. Approach Systems gets an A+++ in my book, they have been extremely
responsive to my emails even on weekends.
Help!
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 09:55:22 AM PST US
From: Gene Gottschalk <geneg@sled.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RV-List: RV6A Project for Sale
Includes:
empanage - done
wings - done except for starboard main skins
fuselage - bottom done, ready to fit wings, includes metal jig
finishing kit - not started
almost every option Vans offers, sliding canopy, electric and manual flaps,
etc.
flight instruments, strobes, 5 point harnesses,
many other parts, too many to mention here
all documents and logs
contact me back channel for complete listing and pricing
Gene Gottschalk
miranda@tartan30.org
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 10:13:42 AM PST US
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
the
Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
used.
Recommendations?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
DO NOT ARCHIVE
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 10:38:40 AM PST US
Subject: RV-List: Texas Visit
From: "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI"
<Neal.George@Hurlburt.AF.MIL>
Listers -
I have a TDY scheduled for Feb 26 - Mar 02 in San Antonio (Lackland).
We need a place to tie down a butt-ugly C-210.
Any recommendations?
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG (wiring)
Navarre, FL
W - 850-884-9121
C - 850-218-4838
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 11:12:10 AM PST US
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we
love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
(basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
> the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
> used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 11:48:49 AM PST US
From: bill shook <billshook2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Garmin c340.....very nice unit.
Bill
--- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as
the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 11:58:05 AM PST US
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars
On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars,
> such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental
> car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
> systems are to what I used. Recommendations?
Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). They
bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling somewhere in the
fall, and were extremely impressed with it's capabilities. I don't think
it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the use-in-your-car models.
Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their other
ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more weather-resistant. I
was thinking that the glove-usability might translate into good in-flight
usability (while you're bouncing around in air, for example).
But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do
turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I
haven't done that.
-Rob
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 12:42:50 PM PST US
From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
Smitty
http://SmittysRV.com
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and
we
love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
(basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
do not archive
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
as
> the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
> used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 01:01:51 PM PST US
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and
stopped keeping them
I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and
was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned
that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening
the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more
and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in
advance.
PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling.
John at Salida, CO
n1cxo320@salidaco.com
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 01:37:34 PM PST US
From: "Bill & Tami Britton" <william@gbta.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them to
the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo setup from
Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than the others.
Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the $3500 optional big
screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this thing does everything
and more than it does. I think I paid in the $250 - 300 range. It's got a
car charger and stick on window mount for it. My only complaint is it does
not have a home charger (120V). The unit is called a Dual Navigation by
Navatlas.
Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with US Map
Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while waiting in the
car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), built-in MP3 player,
approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X 240 resolution, Windows CE
NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module,
Bi-Color LED left/right turn indicators (lights flash when you need to turn
either direction) compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn
instructions with voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes,
9 level selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download
pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal speakers, and
3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember right). Also has a soft
carry case and a downloadable DVD with Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto
Rico maps.
I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has internal
speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF modulator so music
could be played back over your vehicles speaker system.
Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy something
that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price of this thing I
would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a 496 or something else.
Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. For the price difference I'd
take my glasses off for an instant to look at the unit. I have had it in
direct sunlight and it has a very readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!!
Good luck hunting,
Bill Britton
RV-10 Emp #40137
----- Original Message -----
From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
> <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>
> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting
> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
>
> Smitty
> http://SmittysRV.com
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and
> we
> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model
> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you
> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>>
>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
> as
>> the
>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite
>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I
>> used.
>> Recommendations?
>>
>> Tedd McHenry
>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>
>
> --
> 9:58 PM
>
>
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 01:46:40 PM PST US
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars
Whoops, that was supposed to be off-list. Sorry everyone!
-Rob
do not archive
On 12:00 2007-02-05 "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca> wrote:
>
> On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars,
> > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental
> > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the
> > portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations?
>
> Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw).
> They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling
> somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's
> capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the
> use-in-your-car models.
>
> Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their
> other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more
> weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might
> translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around
> in air, for example).
>
> But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do
> turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I
> haven't done that.
>
> -Rob
>
>
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 01:49:38 PM PST US
From: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2@starband.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
Ill pick mine up tonight and scan it tomorrow, if someone else hasnt done
it by then
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped
keeping them
I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was
answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that
about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the
tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and
wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in
advance.
PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling.
John at Salida, CO
n1cxo320@salidaco.com <mailto:n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
--
9:58 PM
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 01:58:40 PM PST US
From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
Bill & Tami Britton wrote:
>
> I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them
> to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo
> setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than
> the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the
> $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this
> thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the
> $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount
> for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V).
> The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas.
Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a 12V
battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work ......
just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from Radio Shack.
Linn
>
>
> Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with
> US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while
> waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart),
> built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X
> 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz
> processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn
> indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction)
> compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with
> voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level
> selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download
> pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal
> speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember
> right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with
> Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps.
>
> I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has
> internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF
> modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker
> system.
>
> Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy
> something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price
> of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a
> 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing.
> For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to
> look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very
> readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!!
>
> Good luck hunting,
> Bill Britton
> RV-10 Emp #40137
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <smitty@smittysrv.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>
>
>> <smitty@smittysrv.com>
>>
>> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest
>> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm
>> getting
>> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit.
>>
>> Smitty
>> http://SmittysRV.com
>>
>>
>> Original Message:
>> -----------------
>> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com
>> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>>
>>
>>
>> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530
>> and
>> we
>> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper
>> model
>> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen
>> that you
>> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me.
>>
>> do not archive
>> )_( Dan
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry"
>> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM
>> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such
>>
>> as
>>
>>> the
>>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was
>>> quite
>>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to
>>> what I
>>> used.
>>> Recommendations?
>>>
>>> Tedd McHenry
>>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
>> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 9:58 PM
>>
>>
>
>
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 02:28:37 PM PST US
From: "John Fasching" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed
Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find
it...would really appreicate it. Thanks again
John n1cxo320@salidaco.com
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 02:34:41 PM PST US
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
On 14:01 2007-02-05 linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > My only complaint is it
> > does not have a home charger (120V).
>
> Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a
> 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work
> ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from
> Radio Shack.
Caution!
Most car outlets are capable of putting out 8A, or higher. Your GPS may be
designed to rapid charge by drawing a high current from your cigarette
lighter. If that's the case, you would need an AC wall adapter capable of
putting out 8A at 12V, and that'll be both large and expensive.
Check the GPS itself, and see what the rating is for the DC input. It
should be stamped on the unit somewhere, but if not it'll be in the manual.
Look for the voltage and current ratings. You need to buy a wall-wart
that matches the voltage exactly, and puts out at least that much current
(higher won't hurt, the unit will only draw what it needs). For example,
if it says 12V/300mA, buying a 12V/500mA wall supply will work just fine
(and it may be hard to find a 300mA supply anyway).
Other than that, make sure you get + and - right. You could destroy your
nice little GPS if you get it backwards and the GPS isn't designed to
handle it.
-Rob
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 02:35:00 PM PST US
Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Using the handy, dandy RVator index
(http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want
the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 04:26:11 PM PST US
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
RV listers,
Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous
inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I
don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns &
questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his
permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit
from this in-depth explanation of the design's history.
======= BEGIN Don's Response =====
Dan,
It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the
cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems
that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like
he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that
are strictly in his control.
You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control
valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you
have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started
our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel
injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the
inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project
engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing
problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew
that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower
requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we
wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed
the present fuel regulator concept.
Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw
back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of
overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without
sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul
cost.
Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were
expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you
used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the
parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were
easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to
control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand
lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough
tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore
that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out
of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we
could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the
material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve
gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had
any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service.
The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause
galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test,
and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve
there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0
leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the
regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an
additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision
was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture
valve was not required.
Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel
injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection
like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that
the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on
the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level
pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire
wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and
nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system
was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor.
You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to
run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep
the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique,
many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the
culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel
control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on
engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer
through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder
Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to
transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide
open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel
pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be
.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never
get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is
another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of
the firewall.
The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel
and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the
hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an
aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system
worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also
the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure
when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine
after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel
pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after
shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure
against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started
and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this
now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing.
Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve.
The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a
fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design
in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter
service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a
vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks
above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be
robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve
bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been
used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few
million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of
malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not
lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design,
that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was
designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting
of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold
the valve.
So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control
and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that
we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo
was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues
that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old
design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a
reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You
bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems
associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably
not, with the market as it is today.
======= END Don's Response =====
________________________________ Message 20
____________________________________
Time: 06:45:08 PM PST US
From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Great response!!! Thanks Dan & Don! This is the education I was
looking for. I've saved the email so that I can revisit it when the
time comes to decide what I'm going to do with my installation. This
email should put some of the urban legend stuff to bed.
In all my dealings with engines over the years, I learned that there are
methods of starting an engine that woprk, and those that don't. I
developed a great set of abs and stomach muscles learning to prop my
Pitts ..... unfortunately, I learned to prop it the easy way! :-P
Again, thanks to Dan & Don.
Linn
do not archive
Dan Checkoway wrote:
>
> RV listers,
>
>
> Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my
> previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in
> ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to
> address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his
> response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt
> this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the
> design's history.
snip
________________________________ Message 21
____________________________________
Time: 08:53:17 PM PST US
From: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars
I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit
is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You
can program what areas you want to cover. I live in
Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the
database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage
for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there
are a lot of other programs available as well.
If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit
that includes the car kit accessories.
I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot
keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to
follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to
establish routes on roads while flying, but I would
not use this unit for AIRNAV.
Dave Nellis
N410DN (Res.)
RV7A Slider
--- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS
> units for cars, such as the
> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a
> rental car and was quite
> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
> systems are to what I used.
> Recommendations?
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC, Canada
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it
now.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
>Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses
>were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain
>orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all
>or too much light and therefore vision.
>
>Was that all wrong?
>
>Terry
I can't say that it is wrong but I have never experienced an issue
so the probability must be exceedingly small that it would happen.
I would put bird strikes and flat tires as higher probability events.
Ron Lee
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery |
>> At this time, we estimate the retail price will be $595. (Yeah, I know
>> this is not cheap, but this is the state-of-the-art battery technology so
>> the parts to make it are not cheap.) <<
Whoee!!!! At that price, someone else can do the field testing of that
state-of-the-art product. I'll stick with proven heavier batteries and put
the money saved into something else! I'm sure there'll be some who will
want to give it a go, though. To some, a pound saved is worth a mint. :-)
>>The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like
leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a
long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It
will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly
as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last
you for many years.<<
To me, some of these exotic batteries are just too fragile to our bungling
ways to make it worth the cost, no matter how great the performance. It's
like we've learned in model aviation. A NiCD battery is awfully hard to
beat for day to day usage and mistreatment, even if they do weigh a tad
more. They cost far less, as well. Those of us who fly models on a lean
budget are more likely to stay away from Li-poly, the A123 Systems M1, and
such. We just can't see leaving the safety of something that works well to
jump into the fire (sometimes literally with Li-poly batteries) to try the
exotics. Of course, it would be different, if we were flying electrics.
For those guys, every ounce of weight saved and amp of capacity gained is
worth the cost. :-)
Just recently, my RV's Concorde RG 25XC battery had to take the punishment
he just described. The voltage regulator quit during some night landings.
The battery got down to about 8V before I caught it. Some things kinda quit
working well, about that time. :-( Shame on me for not catching it; but, I
was having fun with the night landings. After I replaced the voltage
regulator, and recharged the battery some, the recharge during the next
flight pushed 16V until it stabilized a few minutes into the flight. I
can't tell any difference in the battery's performance. It still spins the
engine crisply on these cold mornings.
Of course, none of us ever leave the master on. Do we? :-(
I'll stick with the proven stuff, for now. If some of you Listers try this
offering, please report your findings to us poor folks. It sems to me,
there will have to be some kind of device installed with the battery to
prevent low voltage, over voltage, and that forgetful mind that leaves on
the master. Otherwise, a promising product could get a bad reputation
before it gets a fair shake out. Am I wrong on this?
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
do not archive
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one that was critical
of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted some very nice comments
on the good experiences they have had in dealing with Aircraft Spruce over
the years....we appreciate your business and your support.
These comments were in response to a former customer's posting regarding a custom
panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from several years ago. On
the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership with Advantage Avionics
several years ago and all panel quotes and panel work are now handled by
Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel specialists and do excellent work.
I have responded to our former customer to apologize for our not being able to
meet the quotation he received from our competitor on the custom panel, and
for the problem he had with the tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility
to quickly resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the
tubing, we apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
the best service we possibly can for our customers.
Jim Irwin
President, Aircraft Spruce
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Please Michael, do not take this as being disrespectful or as an insult to your
intelligence. But I feel that the record must be corrected here. I am hopefully
not coming off as arrogant but will only list the facts here. First off
Airflow Performance sells a complete Fuel Injection kit for installation on RV
aircraft. In that kit the purge valve and flow divider come as an assembly;
flow tested pressure tested, lock wired and oil flushed. We have process sheets
that control the assembly process, and the lock wire sign off is part of that
sheet. I believe if you look back on your build record for the RV-6A there
are pictures of the purge valve flow divider assembly bolted to the engine.
It clearly shows the assembly lock wired. There are instances that customers
want to install our purge valve on other fuel-injected installation not using
Airflow Performance equipment; this is the customers choice. In this case the
customer is responsible for fabricating their own brackets and mounting hardware.
The purge valve has mounting holes for brackets on the housing, there is
a tag, which says LOCK WIRE THIS SCREW, on the purge valve stop screw warning
to lock wire the screw after assembly and the installation, and operation manual
has the following warnings in it:
In the manual supplied with the purge valve:
. .Lock wire all hard ware. Make sure to lock wire the stop screw.
In the Appendix in the manual:
WARNING
Failure to lock wire the stop screw holding the purge valve in the housing, will
result in immediate engine stoppage if the screw backs out.
Again here, as stated in the Installation and Service Manual Rev.E:
OPERATION OF THE INSTALLED SYSTEM
2-2. There are many factors affecting satisfactory fuel injection operation in
service, which cannot be addressed regarding the design of the fuel controller
alone. A recognition of these requirements regarding fuel tanks, fuel lines,
fuel pumps, fuel pressure requirements, controls, air induction inlet, intake
manifold design, and the operation and maneuvers the aircraft will be subjected
to, must be evaluated if the fuel injection system is to function successfully
in the airplane. It is up to the owner/installer to use proper and approved
aircraft installation and fabrication techniques. Airflow Performance recommends
using AC-4313-2B as a guide for approved methods and techniques for installing
components on aircraft installations.
I dont know what else we can do to insure that proper installation and maintenance
techniques are used. You are, after all, building an Experimental Aircraft
there is no type certificate, which controls the components installed on the
aircraft. Thats the beauty of this category. But of course this puts more responsibility
on the builder.
Michael, you stated:
I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with the screws
safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow divider and fuel
servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but not the purge valve. Leaving
this up to the installer can lead to a failure to do so. With many things
on an airplane, this cant be avoided. But with this purge valve, I think it
can be done simply. How many accidents do we need before it changes from dumb
user error, to design change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can
be avoided, does not sound like good practice.
Well, to answer the first part of your statement, the assembly in the kit is lock
wired. To the second part of the statement, I believe we have to the best
of our ability informed the customer of the need to lock wire the stop screw.
And in some of the instances when the factory installed lock wire was removed
for one reason or another it was not reinstalled. Hopefully the person removing
this lock wire had enough presence of mind to re-lock wire parts that he/she
disassembles and reassembled. Its not any different than lock wiring oil filters,
oil drain plugs, propeller bolts, making sure the spark plugs are torqued
and your seat belts and harness are on when you take off. Its all about the
details.
But, if you take the analogy further, maybe the experimental kit market should
not sell kits that have to be assembled. Is the RV-nose gear in need of design
change, if it would fail if you hit a pothole? Should the control stick in
an aircraft be welded in instead of bolted in the event the bolt would fall out
or is not installed? (This has happened). Should there be cotter pins on the
nut that holds the throttle lever on the fuel injector throttle shaft or should
there be a lock nut? The cotter pin could not be installed or the lock nut
could have no running torque. The debate goes on and on. I guess what Im
saying here is yes we the manufactures are responsible to have sound engineering
behind their products. Since this is an experimental category, you as the
builder have the right to assemble, modify or do whatever. Where I have a problem
is when people disregard the proven track record of a product, with millions
of flight hours accumulated, to say that the design is defective or needs
to have a design change because the original design intent has not been met or
the device has been used, abused or incorrect maintenance practices have been
used. All of us operating experimental aircraft, myself included have the responsibility
to insure to the best of our ability that our aircraft are safe to
fly. Doing your own maintenance, modifications or for that matter building
your own flying machine is highly rewarding and an accomplishment not taken lightly.
Lets face it. Flying is dangerous, but we need to evaluate the risks
and be responsible to operate the aircraft in a safe, legal manner. This was
the basis of the experimental movement when I got involved back in the 1960s.
Experimental aircraft give us a lot of freedom; one way to be able to exercise
that freedom is to be responsible.
I need to get off the soapbox.
Yes Dan we are having Fuel Injection 101 classes at our facility the 2007 dates
are March 2-4 and November 2-4.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93275#93275
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: RVAtor Article Needed |
I've added a link to your site and to your RVator index on my web site
http://brian76.mystarband.net/MailLists.htm
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed
Using the handy, dandy RVator index
(http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want
the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10.
I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045
--
9:58 PM
--
4:48 PM
Message 29
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| Subject: | Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
> Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses
> were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain
> orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all
> or too much light and therefore vision.
Terry:
I think it's not so much blocking light in general as creating blind spots.
The sunglasses and visors we were issued in the Canadian air force were not
polarized, and I was told that was the reason.
But I've used polarized sunglasses while flying RVs and other civilian
airplanes and haven't found it to be a problem.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
Message 30
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Bought the wife a Garmin c330 Street Pilot at, get this...Wal-Mart
on-line...for Christmas. She travels a lot doing business & both the mapbook
& Mapquest were hard to use. With the c330 she enters the address and it
"talks" her right to it. It's in color, no problem reading it in brightest
sunlight with the moon roof open, but she uses the audio directions as they
are direct & clear. Have had it count down to within 7 feet of an
intersection turn. It "talks" to you as you approach an indicated turn. Miss
a turn, that OK it "re-calculating" and directs you from there. Has just
about everything but altitude (not sure it's not in there too) as the
Garmin's (2) in the HRII. $329.00 total (OTD) with 3 day shipping. KABONG
Do Not Archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery |
The damage threshold is similar to what you have with your typical agm
lead-acid (like the Odyssey 680.) You leave the master on for a couple
of days and you will likely ruin the battery. The cost of making such a
mistake is higher. I would strongly suggest a door switch and a warning
buzzer. :-)
Bill Dube'
>
>
>>> The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like
>>
> leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a
> long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It
> will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly
> as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last
> you for many years.<<
>
> To me, some of these exotic batteries are just too fragile to our
> bungling ways to make it worth the cost, no matter how great the
> performance. It's like we've learned in model aviation. A NiCD
> battery is awfully hard to beat for day to day usage and mistreatment,
> even if they do weigh a tad more. They cost far less, as well. Those
> of us who fly models on a lean budget are more likely to stay away
> from Li-poly, the A123 Systems M1, and such. We just can't see
> leaving the safety of something that works well to jump into the fire
> (sometimes literally with Li-poly batteries) to try the exotics. Of
> course, it would be different, if we were flying electrics. For those
> guys, every ounce of weight saved and amp of capacity gained is worth
> the cost. :-)
>
> Just recently, my RV's Concorde RG 25XC battery had to take the
> punishment he just described. The voltage regulator quit during some
> night landings. The battery got down to about 8V before I caught it.
> Some things kinda quit working well, about that time. :-( Shame on
> me for not catching it; but, I was having fun with the night
> landings. After I replaced the voltage regulator, and recharged the
> battery some, the recharge during the next flight pushed 16V until it
> stabilized a few minutes into the flight. I can't tell any difference
> in the battery's performance. It still spins the engine crisply on
> these cold mornings.
>
> Of course, none of us ever leave the master on. Do we? :-(
>
> I'll stick with the proven stuff, for now. If some of you Listers try
> this offering, please report your findings to us poor folks. It sems
> to me, there will have to be some kind of device installed with the
> battery to prevent low voltage, over voltage, and that forgetful mind
> that leaves on the master. Otherwise, a promising product could get a
> bad reputation before it gets a fair shake out. Am I wrong on this?
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
> do not archive
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Mr. Don Rivera,
Both you and I probably agree that Air Flow Performance builds probably
one of the best ( if not THE best ) Fuel Injection Systems on the
experimental market today.
Personally, I actually do like the idea of a manually controlled Purge
Valve for its various reasons. Shutting off an engine via the Purge
Valve or via Mixture cutoff is like six of one, half a dozen of another
as far as I am concerned. But not everyone may think this way. Well, to
each experimenter his/her own, but I sure do think your system is very
versatile.
That said, I'd like to add that I am not even a customer of AFP just
yet, nor do I have a financial or any other interest in AFP for sharing
my thoughts on my understanding of the system.
However I would not mind getting 50% off when the time cometh to place
an order! Please keep this in mind...
Sincerely,
Konrad
Do not archive
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery |
>
> Just recently, my RV's Concorde RG 25XC battery had to take the
> punishment he just described. The voltage regulator quit during some
> night landings. The battery got down to about 8V before I caught it.
> Some things kinda quit working well, about that time. :-( Shame on
> me for not catching it; but, I was having fun with the night
> landings. After I replaced the voltage regulator, and recharged the
> battery some, the recharge during the next flight pushed 16V until it
> stabilized a few minutes into the flight. I can't tell any difference
> in the battery's performance. It still spins the engine crisply on
> these cold mornings.
This new battery would withstand this brief abuse with the same
result. It would still work OK if you didn't do these nasty things to it
for very long. It would not be bothered at all by running it down to 8
volts. That would cause no damage whatsoever.
The A123 Systems cells are quite a bit more robust than other Li-Ion
cells. They can really "take a punch" unlike the typical Li-Polymer or
the Cobalt cells that will go belly-up with even a hint of over-voltage
or under-voltage.
I wouldn't be putting these things out on the market if they
couldn't take a lickn'. :-)
Bill Dube'
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important customer
service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced for my
Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to them and
now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls returned. JPI
will not provide me another name or number to get results.
Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
Tim
Do Not Archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
>
> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one that was
> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted some
> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in dealing with
> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and your
> support.
>
> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting regarding a
> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from several years
> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership with
> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and panel work
> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel specialists
> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received from
> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had with the
> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing the
> best service we possibly can for our customers.
>
> Jim Irwin
> President, Aircraft Spruce
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | RvAtor Article Needed |
Thanks for all the help folks. I now have a hard copy of Ken Scott's
article from the 6th issue of 2004 wherein he describes how to get the
undrilled replacement fuel tanks drilled so the holes match up with the
original ones in the spar. When I saw the little drawing of his "device"
I recall reading it and then remembered even making a hand drawn copy
of the device, but cannot recall where it was put ! Its hell to get old
!
Thanks again. John
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations |
Just as a data point, I can confirm that my FM-300 is sitting in its box with the
safety wires all in place.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:43 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations
Please Michael, do not take this as being disrespectful or as an insult to your
intelligence. But I feel that the record must be corrected here. I am hopefully
not coming off as arrogant but will only list the facts here. First off
Airflow Performance sells a complete Fuel Injection kit for installation on RV
aircraft. In that kit the purge valve and flow divider come as an assembly;
flow tested pressure tested, lock wired and oil flushed. We have process sheets
that control the assembly process, and the lock wire sign off is part of that
sheet. I believe if you look back on your build record for the RV-6A there
are pictures of the purge valve flow divider assembly bolted to the engine.
It clearly shows the assembly lock wired. There are instances that customers
want to install our purge valve on other fuel-injected installation not using
Airflow Performance equipment; this is the customers choice. In this case the
customer is responsible for fabricating their ow!
n brackets and mounting hardware. The purge valve has mounting holes for brackets
on the housing, there is a tag, which says LOCK WIRE THIS SCREW, on the purge
valve stop screw warning to lock wire the screw after assembly and the installation,
and operation manual has the following warnings in it:
In the manual supplied with the purge valve:
. .Lock wire all hard ware. Make sure to lock wire the stop screw.
In the Appendix in the manual:
WARNING
Failure to lock wire the stop screw holding the purge valve in the housing, will
result in immediate engine stoppage if the screw backs out.
Again here, as stated in the Installation and Service Manual Rev.E:
OPERATION OF THE INSTALLED SYSTEM
2-2. There are many factors affecting satisfactory fuel injection operation in
service, which cannot be addressed regarding the design of the fuel controller
alone. A recognition of these requirements regarding fuel tanks, fuel lines,
fuel pumps, fuel pressure requirements, controls, air induction inlet, intake
manifold design, and the operation and maneuvers the aircraft will be subjected
to, must be evaluated if the fuel injection system is to function successfully
in the airplane. It is up to the owner/installer to use proper and approved
aircraft installation and fabrication techniques. Airflow Performance recommends
using AC-4313-2B as a guide for approved methods and techniques for installing
components on aircraft installations.
I dont know what else we can do to insure that proper installation and maintenance
techniques are used. You are, after all, building an Experimental Aircraft
there is no type certificate, which controls the components installed on the
aircraft. Thats the beauty of this category. But of course this puts more responsibility
on the builder.
Michael, you stated:
I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with the screws
safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow divider and fuel
servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but not the purge valve. Leaving
this up to the installer can lead to a failure to do so. With many things
on an airplane, this cant be avoided. But with this purge valve, I think it
can be done simply. How many accidents do we need before it changes from dumb
user error, to design change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can
be avoided, does not sound like good practice.
Well, to answer the first part of your statement, the assembly in the kit is lock
wired. To the second part of the statement, I believe we have to the best
of our ability informed the customer of the need to lock wire the stop screw.
And in some of the instances when the factory installed lock wire was removed
for one reason or another it was not reinstalled. Hopefully the person removing
this lock wire had enough presence of mind to re-lock wire parts that he/she
disassembles and reassembled. Its not any different than lock wiring oil filters,
oil drain plugs, propeller bolts, making sure the spark plugs are torqued
and your seat belts and harness are on when you take off. Its all about the
details.
But, if you take the analogy further, maybe the experimental kit market should
not sell kits that have to be assembled. Is the RV-nose gear in need of design
change, if it would fail if you hit a pothole? Should the control stick in
an aircraft be welded in instead of bolted in the event the bolt would fall out
or is not installed? (This has happened). Should there be cotter pins on the
nut that holds the throttle lever on the fuel injector throttle shaft or should
there be a lock nut? The cotter pin could not be installed or the lock nut
could have no running torque. The debate goes on and on. I guess what Im
saying here is yes we the manufactures are responsible to have sound engineering
behind their products. Since this is an experimental category, you as the
builder have the right to assemble, modify or do whatever. Where I have a problem
is when people disregard the proven track record of a product, with millions
of flight hours accumulated, to say that the !
design is defective or needs to have a design change because the original design
intent has not been met or the device has been used, abused or incorrect maintenance
practices have been used. All of us operating experimental aircraft,
myself included have the responsibility to insure to the best of our ability
that our aircraft are safe to fly. Doing your own maintenance, modifications
or for that matter building your own flying machine is highly rewarding and an
accomplishment not taken lightly. Lets face it. Flying is dangerous, but we
need to evaluate the risks and be responsible to operate the aircraft in a safe,
legal manner. This was the basis of the experimental movement when I got
involved back in the 1960s. Experimental aircraft give us a lot of freedom;
one way to be able to exercise that freedom is to be responsible.
I need to get off the soapbox.
Yes Dan we are having Fuel Injection 101 classes at our facility the 2007 dates
are March 2-4 and November 2-4.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93275#93275
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
wish to install.
I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
tell him about your problem.
If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
clearly the company is in major trouble.
If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
delivered.
But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
we're really screwing up."
Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
customers. They always do something about it.
-J
On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
> customer
> service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
> for my
> Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
> them and
> now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
> returned. JPI
> will not provide me another name or number to get results.
>
> Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
> Tim
> Do Not Archive
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>>
>> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
>>
>> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
>> that was
>> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
>> some
>> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
>> dealing with
>> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
>> your
>> support.
>>
>> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
>> regarding a
>> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
>> several years
>> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
>> with
>> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
>> panel work
>> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
>> specialists
>> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
>> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
>> from
>> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
>> with the
>> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
>> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
>> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
>> the
>> best service we possibly can for our customers.
>>
>> Jim Irwin
>> President, Aircraft Spruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Hello Jim,
I've had it on my list of things to do for about 2 years to write to you
about the consistently poor customer service I have encountered at Aircraft
Spruce. Details of my last couple encounters are posted on my "vendors"
page: http://brian76.mystarband.net/vendors.htm/#ACS
I'm glad that you cared enough about your customer service to respond to
previous statements from me and numerous others on this list about problems
with Aircraft Spruce's customer service, and I hope you will take steps to
address those issues internally. If I have any more customer service
problems at ACS, I will be sure to contact you immediately with details.
ACS would be a great source if not for the attitude problems some of us have
encountered.
Brian Meyette
RV-7A
Cornish, NH
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:15 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
<info@aircraftspruce.com>
We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one that was
critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted some very
nice comments on the good experiences they have had in dealing with Aircraft
Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and your support.
These comments were in response to a former customer's posting regarding a
custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from several years
ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership with
Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and panel work are
now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel specialists and do
excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to apologize for
our not being able to meet the quotation he received from our competitor on
the custom panel, and for the problem he had with the tubing. Mistakes can
happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly resolve them for out
customers, and in the case of the tubing, we apparently did not. We're not
perfect, but we will keep providing the best service we possibly can for our
customers.
Jim Irwin
President, Aircraft Spruce
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
--
4:48 PM
--
4:48 PM
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them
and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am
seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming
with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
wish to install.
I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
tell him about your problem.
If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
clearly the company is in major trouble.
If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
delivered.
But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
we're really screwing up."
Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
customers. They always do something about it.
-J
On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
> customer
> service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
> for my
> Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
> them and
> now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
> returned. JPI
> will not provide me another name or number to get results.
>
> Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
> Tim
> Do Not Archive
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>>
>> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
>>
>> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
>> that was
>> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
>> some
>> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
>> dealing with
>> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
>> your
>> support.
>>
>> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
>> regarding a
>> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
>> several years
>> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
>> with
>> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
>> panel work
>> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
>> specialists
>> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
>> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
>> from
>> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
>> with the
>> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
>> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
>> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
>> the
>> best service we possibly can for our customers.
>>
>> Jim Irwin
>> President, Aircraft Spruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name change.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael
Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them
and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am
seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming
with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
wish to install.
I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
tell him about your problem.
If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
clearly the company is in major trouble.
If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
delivered.
But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
we're really screwing up."
Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
customers. They always do something about it.
-J
On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
> customer
> service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
> for my
> Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
> them and
> now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
> returned. JPI
> will not provide me another name or number to get results.
>
> Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
> Tim
> Do Not Archive
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>>
>> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
>>
>> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
>> that was
>> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
>> some
>> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
>> dealing with
>> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
>> your
>> support.
>>
>> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
>> regarding a
>> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
>> several years
>> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
>> with
>> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
>> panel work
>> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
>> specialists
>> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
>> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
>> from
>> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
>> with the
>> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
>> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
>> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
>> the
>> best service we possibly can for our customers.
>>
>> Jim Irwin
>> President, Aircraft Spruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Who is Matt? Name change for what?
Do Not Archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:29 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name change.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
> (Michael
> Sausen)
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them
> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am
> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming
> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
> wish to install.
>
> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
>
> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
>
> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
>
> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
> tell him about your problem.
>
> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
> clearly the company is in major trouble.
>
> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
> delivered.
>
> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
> we're really screwing up."
>
> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
> customers. They always do something about it.
>
> -J
>
> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> >
> > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
> > customer
> > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
> > for my
> > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
> > them and
> > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
> > returned. JPI
> > will not provide me another name or number to get results.
> >
> > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
> > Tim
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
> >>
> >> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
> >>
> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
> >> that was
> >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
> >> some
> >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
> >> dealing with
> >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
> >> your
> >> support.
> >>
> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
> >> regarding a
> >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
> >> several years
> >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
> >> with
> >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
> >> panel work
> >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
> >> specialists
> >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
> >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
> >> from
> >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
> >> with the
> >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
> >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
> >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
> >> the
> >> best service we possibly can for our customers.
> >>
> >> Jim Irwin
> >> President, Aircraft Spruce
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 42
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|
Well,
I do take exception to the comment about Bosch K-jet injection. Hot starts
were not an issue with them really as used on the BMWs, VWs and Mercedes.
But they are a full flow system returning about 10-20 gallons an hour back
to the tank. This is true of all Bosch injection up through at least '97
when I stopped working on them. The big problem with them all was starting
with the throttle open. They weren't designed for this and they would lean
out, backfire and blow the rubber induction boots off and or damage the
airflow plates.
Typically most injection systems, including turbines use some type of
pressurization and dump strategy, and many of them use a return system to
not only cool for vapor lock, but the extra fuel also cools many components
like the in tank pickup pre-pumps.
W
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
If you climb into the wayback machine, you'll find that 8 or so years ago
(from memory), JPI threatened to sue Matronics for copyright (or was it
trademark?) infringement over a product name. Both products were fuel
totalizers for the aviation market. In the end, I don't think the suit went
to trial, but Matronics did end up changing the name of its product.
At the time, it appeared that a larger company (JPI) was using its deeper
pockets and the threat of legal action to intimidate a smaller competitor
(Matronics). Matronics is owned by a guy named Matt Dralle, who is also the
owner and system administrator for this and a couple of other free forums
for various flavors of experimental aviation...
Search for JPI in the archives and you'll find plenty of info...
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
> Who is Matt? Name change for what?
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:29 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>>
>>
>> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name
>> change.
>>
>> Bruce
>> www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
>> (Michael
>> Sausen)
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>>
>>
>> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>>
>> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them
>> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am
>> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming
>> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>>
>>
>> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
>> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
>> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
>> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
>> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
>> wish to install.
>>
>> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
>>
>> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
>> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
>> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
>>
>> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
>> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
>> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
>>
>> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
>> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
>> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
>> tell him about your problem.
>>
>> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
>> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
>> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
>> clearly the company is in major trouble.
>>
>> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
>> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
>> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
>> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
>> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
>> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
>> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
>> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
>> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
>> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
>> delivered.
>>
>> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
>> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
>> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
>> we're really screwing up."
>>
>> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
>> customers. They always do something about it.
>>
>> -J
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
>> > customer
>> > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
>> > for my
>> > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
>> > them and
>> > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
>> > returned. JPI
>> > will not provide me another name or number to get results.
>> >
>> > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
>> > Tim
>> > Do Not Archive
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
>> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>> >>
>> >> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
>> >>
>> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
>> >> that was
>> >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
>> >> some
>> >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
>> >> dealing with
>> >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
>> >> your
>> >> support.
>> >>
>> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
>> >> regarding a
>> >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
>> >> several years
>> >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
>> >> with
>> >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
>> >> panel work
>> >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
>> >> specialists
>> >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
>> >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
>> >> from
>> >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
>> >> with the
>> >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
>> >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
>> >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
>> >> the
>> >> best service we possibly can for our customers.
>> >>
>> >> Jim Irwin
>> >> President, Aircraft Spruce
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Read this topic online here:
>> >>
>> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
On 6 Feb 2007, at 17:58, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Who is Matt? Name change for what?
Matt Dralle provides the servers that run the Aeroelectric-List, RV-
List, etc. Way back in early 1999 JPI sued Matt for no good reason.
Matt's post describing the problem can be found in the RV-List
archives. I repeat it here to save you the trouble:
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001)
Subject: PLEASE READ - I Need Your Help...
Dear Listers,
I received the letter below from J.P. Instruments' attorneys yesterday.
J.P. Instruments (JPI) manufactures aircraft engine monitoring
instruments
and they are based out of Huntington Beach, California. In the
letter, JPI
alleges that because Matronics (my company and sponsor of these email
lists)
uses the name "FUEL SCAN" on our product, Matronics is infringing on
JPI's
registered trademark of "SCANNER". (The actual name of the Matronics
product is "FUELSCAN" not "FUEL SCAN" as indicated.) They are
requesting
that Matronics discontinue the use of the name "FUEL SCAN" by
February 19, 1999 or they will "resort to legal remedies."
As you can imagine, this is very upsetting information. Changing the
name
of the FuelScan now will cost thousands of dollars by having to redo
product
literature, brochures, documentation, silk screening and a host of other
items that include the name. Many of these items have been
reproduced in
large quantities to make the reproduction costs more affordable. All of
this would have to be discarded and reproduced if Matronics is forced
to comply. Perhaps even more significant, however, is the fact that
after 4 years on the market, the Matronics FuelScan is just now becoming
more widely known as a fine and reliable product. Changing the
FuelScan's
name at this critical time in the product's life would be a devastating
blow to both the long term successfulness of the FuelScan as well as
to financial stability of Matronics. Complying with JPI's request could
cause Matronics to cease to exist as we now know it and might very well
jeopardize the many other services Matronics provides to the Aviation
community such as these email Lists and web site.
With that all being said, I'm not sure what to do at this point.
There is
no way that I can afford to fight JPI over this. I definitely don't
want
to just roll over and give them their way, either. It just doesn't seem
quite fair that they could put me out of business because, in their
estimation, "my product might be confused with their's".
If there is anyone out there that could offer some legal advise or
consultation in these matters, I would really appreciate it. It would
also seem, that with nearly 1900 members on the combined four email
Lists,
we would represent a rather strong voice. If anyone has any ideas on
how
to organize that strength to help resolve this matter, I would love to
hear it.
I would like to thank everyone here in advance for all of your
support over
the years. It's in times like these that it becomes very apparent
what a
truly great group of people these Lists represent. I thank you.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
RV, Rocket, Kolb & Zenith List Admin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reprint of FACSIMILE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Price, Gess & Ubell
Attorneys at Law
2100 S.E. Main Street, Suite 250
Irvine, California 92614-6238
February 5, 1999
Joseph W. Price
Albin H. Gess
Franklin D. Ubell
Doyle B. Johnson
Michael J. Moffatt
Gordon E. Gray III
Bradley D. Blanche
A Professional Corporation
Telephone: (949) 261-8433
Facsimile: (949) 261-9072
Facsimile: (949) 261-1726
e-mail: pgu(at)pgulaw.com
VIA FACSIMILE
-------------
President
Matronics, Inc.
P.O. Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Re: J.P. Instruments v. Matronics, Inc.
Our Ref: JPI1-700a
Dear Sir or Madam:
Enclosed for your review is the federal trademark
registration for
"SCANNER" owned by J.P. Instruments. We have recently discovered
your use
of the mark "FUEL SCAN" for after-market aircraft parts. The use of
FUEL SCAN is likely to cause confusion with our client's trademark
SCANNER and therefore infringes our client's trademark.
We request that you respect our client's intellectual property
rights and stop using the FUEL SCAN mark. If you do not confirm that
you have stopped using the FUEL SCAN mark by February 19, 1999, our
client will resort to its legal remedies.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact
me.
Very truly yours,
PRICE, GESS & UBELL
[signature]
Gordon E. Gray
GEG:xox
Enclosure
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reprint of Trademark Enclosure
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Int. Cl.: 9
Prior U.S. Cl.: 26
United States Patent and Trademark Office
Reg. No 1,943,281
Registered Dec. 26, 1995
TRADEMARK
PRINCIPAL REGISTER
SCANNER
J.P. INSTRUMENTS (CALIFORNIA CORPORATION)
1540-K EAST EDINGER
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
FOR: ENGINE TEMPERATURE INDICATORS, IN CLASS 9 (U.S. CL. 26)
FIRST USE 6-0-1884; IN COMMERCE 6-0-1984.
SEC. 2(F).
SER. NO. 73-742,104, FILED 7-25-1988
KATHRYN ERSKINE, EXAMINING ATTORNEY
================
I will never, ever purchase a product from JPI. Their approach to
downloading data from their engine monitors shows that their
antipathy to their customers continues.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: JPI was Aircraft Spruce update |
Kevin and Kyle,
I didn't realize the Matt you were referencing and Matt D. were one in the
same. It is unfortunate once again our country is so sue happy. Thanks for
the info, and one more reason to put a strike against JPI. Too bad they
acquired Vision Microsytems.
Tim and Do Not Archive incase it isn't already in here.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Boatright
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:19 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> If you climb into the wayback machine, you'll find that 8 or so years ago
> (from memory), JPI threatened to sue Matronics for copyright (or was it
> trademark?) infringement over a product name. Both products were fuel
> totalizers for the aviation market. In the end, I don't think the suit
> went
> to trial, but Matronics did end up changing the name of its product.
>
> At the time, it appeared that a larger company (JPI) was using its deeper
> pockets and the threat of legal action to intimidate a smaller competitor
> (Matronics). Matronics is owned by a guy named Matt Dralle, who is also
> the
> owner and system administrator for this and a couple of other free forums
> for various flavors of experimental aviation...
>
> Search for JPI in the archives and you'll find plenty of info...
>
> KB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:58 PM
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> >
> > Who is Matt? Name change for what?
> >
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:29 PM
> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
> >>
> >>
> >> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name
> >> change.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> www.glasair.org
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
> >> (Michael
> >> Sausen)
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM
> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
> >>
> >>
> >> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
> >>
> >> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to
> them
> >> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am
> >> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming
> >> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM
> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
> >>
> >>
> >> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
> >> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
> >> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
> >> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
> >> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
> >> wish to install.
> >>
> >> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
> >>
> >> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
> >> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
> >> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
> >>
> >> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
> >> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
> >> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
> >>
> >> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
> >> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
> >> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
> >> tell him about your problem.
> >>
> >> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
> >> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
> >> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
> >> clearly the company is in major trouble.
> >>
> >> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
> >> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
> >> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
> >> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
> >> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
> >> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
> >> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
> >> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
> >> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
> >> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
> >> delivered.
> >>
> >> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
> >> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
> >> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
> >> we're really screwing up."
> >>
> >> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
> >> customers. They always do something about it.
> >>
> >> -J
> >>
> >> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
> >> > customer
> >> > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
> >> > for my
> >> > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
> >> > them and
> >> > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
> >> > returned. JPI
> >> > will not provide me another name or number to get results.
> >> >
> >> > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
> >> > Tim
> >> > Do Not Archive
> >> >
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> >> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
> >> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
> >> >>
> >> >> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
> >> >>
> >> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
> >> >> that was
> >> >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
> >> >> some
> >> >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
> >> >> dealing with
> >> >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
> >> >> your
> >> >> support.
> >> >>
> >> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
> >> >> regarding a
> >> >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
> >> >> several years
> >> >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
> >> >> with
> >> >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
> >> >> panel work
> >> >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
> >> >> specialists
> >> >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
> >> >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
> >> >> from
> >> >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
> >> >> with the
> >> >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to
> quickly
> >> >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
> >> >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
> >> >> the
> >> >> best service we possibly can for our customers.
> >> >>
> >> >> Jim Irwin
> >> >> President, Aircraft Spruce
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Read this topic online here:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M |
An update on the story following this morning's hearing can be found here (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/eaa_court_motion_result.html).
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93345#93345
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars |
Occasionally you'll find an ique 3600A on EBAY, that's the aviation
version of the 3600 and has the aviation database and better display. I
use mine in the car and the airplane and I love it.
Dave B
Dave Nellis wrote:
>
> I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit
> is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You
> can program what areas you want to cover. I live in
> Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the
> database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage
> for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there
> are a lot of other programs available as well.
>
> If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit
> that includes the car kit accessories.
>
> I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot
> keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to
> follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to
> establish routes on roads while flying, but I would
> not use this unit for AIRNAV.
>
> Dave Nellis
> N410DN (Res.)
> RV7A Slider
>
> --- Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
>
>
>> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>>
>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS
>> units for cars, such as the
>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a
>> rental car and was quite
>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable
>> systems are to what I used.
>> Recommendations?
>>
>> Tedd McHenry
>> Surrey, BC, Canada
>> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>
>>
>> browse
>> Subscriptions page,
>> FAQ,
>>
>> Web Forums!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
>
>
>
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
Thats very interesting. In monitoring the list for the last couple years
I've never caught wind of a payoff... I guess thats good for matt, but I've
been prejudiced against jpi for heavy handed tactics, and if in fact they
paid well for they're concerns, I need to reevaluate my defense of the
"persecuted"....steve
40205
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:29 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name change.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
> (Michael
> Sausen)
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them
> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am
> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming
> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
>
>
> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell
> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends
> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're
> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are
> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they
> wish to install.
>
> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry.
>
> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales
> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on
> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders.
>
> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press
> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and
> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service.
>
> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the
> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name,
> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to
> tell him about your problem.
>
> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider
> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and
> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then
> clearly the company is in major trouble.
>
> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give
> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind
> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product
> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the
> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual
> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be
> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution --
> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the
> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department.
> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't
> delivered.
>
> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on
> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND
> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset,
> we're really screwing up."
>
> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied
> customers. They always do something about it.
>
> -J
>
> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> >
> > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important
> > customer
> > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced
> > for my
> > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to
> > them and
> > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls
> > returned. JPI
> > will not provide me another name or number to get results.
> >
> > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring
> > Tim
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM
> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
> >>
> >> <info@aircraftspruce.com>
> >>
> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one
> >> that was
> >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted
> >> some
> >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in
> >> dealing with
> >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and
> >> your
> >> support.
> >>
> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting
> >> regarding a
> >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from
> >> several years
> >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership
> >> with
> >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and
> >> panel work
> >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel
> >> specialists
> >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to
> >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received
> >> from
> >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had
> >> with the
> >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly
> >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we
> >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing
> >> the
> >> best service we possibly can for our customers.
> >>
> >> Jim Irwin
> >> President, Aircraft Spruce
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
--
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Spruce update |
The JPI episode has happened already 8 years ago to the day !?!?!?
(Feb. 6, 1999)
Time sure fly's by .....
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Horton
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update
On 6 Feb 2007, at 17:58, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Who is Matt? Name change for what?
Matt Dralle provides the servers that run the Aeroelectric-List, RV-
List, etc. Way back in early 1999 JPI sued Matt for no good reason.
Matt's post describing the problem can be found in the RV-List
archives. I repeat it here to save you the trouble:
From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001)
Date: Feb 06, 1999
Subject: PLEASE READ - I Need Your Help...
Dear Listers,
I received the letter below from J.P. Instruments' attorneys
yesterday.
J.P. Instruments (JPI) manufactures aircraft engine monitoring
instruments
and they are based out of Huntington Beach, California. In the
letter, JPI
alleges that because Matronics (my company and sponsor of these email
lists)
uses the name "FUEL SCAN" on our product, Matronics is infringing on
JPI's
registered trademark of "SCANNER". (The actual name of the Matronics
product is "FUELSCAN" not "FUEL SCAN" as indicated.) They are
requesting
that Matronics discontinue the use of the name "FUEL SCAN" by
February 19, 1999 or they will "resort to legal remedies."
As you can imagine, this is very upsetting information. Changing the
name
of the FuelScan now will cost thousands of dollars by having to redo
product
literature, brochures, documentation, silk screening and a host of
other
items that include the name. Many of these items have been
reproduced in
large quantities to make the reproduction costs more affordable. All
of
this would have to be discarded and reproduced if Matronics is forced
to comply. Perhaps even more significant, however, is the fact that
after 4 years on the market, the Matronics FuelScan is just now
becoming
more widely known as a fine and reliable product. Changing the
FuelScan's
name at this critical time in the product's life would be a
devastating
blow to both the long term successfulness of the FuelScan as well as
to financial stability of Matronics. Complying with JPI's request
could
cause Matronics to cease to exist as we now know it and might very
well
jeopardize the many other services Matronics provides to the Aviation
community such as these email Lists and web site.
With that all being said, I'm not sure what to do at this point.
There is
no way that I can afford to fight JPI over this. I definitely don't
want
to just roll over and give them their way, either. It just doesn't
seem
quite fair that they could put me out of business because, in their
estimation, "my product might be confused with their's".
If there is anyone out there that could offer some legal advise or
consultation in these matters, I would really appreciate it. It would
also seem, that with nearly 1900 members on the combined four email
Lists,
we would represent a rather strong voice. If anyone has any ideas on
how
to organize that strength to help resolve this matter, I would love to
hear it.
I would like to thank everyone here in advance for all of your
support over
the years. It's in times like these that it becomes very apparent
what a
truly great group of people these Lists represent. I thank you.
Matt Dralle
Matronics
RV, Rocket, Kolb & Zenith List Admin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reprint of FACSIMILE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Price, Gess & Ubell
Attorneys at Law
2100 S.E. Main Street, Suite 250
Irvine, California 92614-6238
February 5, 1999
Joseph W. Price
Albin H. Gess
Franklin D. Ubell
Doyle B. Johnson
Michael J. Moffatt
Gordon E. Gray III
Bradley D. Blanche
A Professional Corporation
Telephone: (949) 261-8433
Facsimile: (949) 261-9072
Facsimile: (949) 261-1726
e-mail: pgu(at)pgulaw.com
VIA FACSIMILE
-------------
President
Matronics, Inc.
P.O. Box 347
Livermore, CA 94551
Re: J.P. Instruments v. Matronics, Inc.
Our Ref: JPI1-700a
Dear Sir or Madam:
Enclosed for your review is the federal trademark
registration for
"SCANNER" owned by J.P. Instruments. We have recently discovered
your use
of the mark "FUEL SCAN" for after-market aircraft parts. The use of
FUEL SCAN is likely to cause confusion with our client's trademark
SCANNER and therefore infringes our client's trademark.
We request that you respect our client's intellectual
property
rights and stop using the FUEL SCAN mark. If you do not confirm that
you have stopped using the FUEL SCAN mark by February 19, 1999, our
client will resort to its legal remedies.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact
me.
Very truly yours,
PRICE, GESS & UBELL
[signature]
Gordon E. Gray
GEG:xox
Enclosure
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reprint of Trademark Enclosure
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Int. Cl.: 9
Prior U.S. Cl.: 26
United States Patent and Trademark Office
Reg. No 1,943,281
Registered Dec. 26, 1995
TRADEMARK
PRINCIPAL REGISTER
SCANNER
J.P. INSTRUMENTS (CALIFORNIA CORPORATION)
1540-K EAST EDINGER
SANTA ANA, CA 92705
FOR: ENGINE TEMPERATURE INDICATORS, IN CLASS 9 (U.S. CL. 26)
FIRST USE 6-0-1884; IN COMMERCE 6-0-1984.
SEC. 2(F).
SER. NO. 73-742,104, FILED 7-25-1988
KATHRYN ERSKINE, EXAMINING ATTORNEY
================
I will never, ever purchase a product from JPI. Their approach to
downloading data from their engine monitors shows that their
antipathy to their customers continues.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 50
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|
| Subject: | Aircraft Spruce Experience |
With the various discussions regarding ACS recently, I thought I would add
a little story about a recent experience I had with them. First I want to
say that I like ACS, as they have just about everything, and I am generally
pleased with their service. My orders have always been correct and shipped
promptly. That is until the last one.
About 3 weeks ago I placed an order for several items, about $1000 worth,
that included a Tru-Trak T&B indicator. When I placed the order, the ACS
system presented me with several shipping choices, with estimated cost. I
chose one that made sense and placed the order. Imagine my surprise, when I
received the invoice, and the shipping cost was 3 times what they estimated.
While I realize that these were just estimates, I expect them to be
reasonably close, like maybe within 10-20%, not 3 times as much. To their
credit, they did refund the amount above what they estimated, but it took 3
phone calls to customer service and about an hour of my time. Just as a
test, I reran the order today up to the point where they give shipping
choices and I got the same estimates.
However, more interesting was that the Tru-Trak T&B indicator that I
received did not come in Tru-Trak packaging. It looked like it was a return
from a previous customer. So during one of my phone calls, I asked them to
replace it. No problem. They issued a UPS pickup for the unit and sent me
another one. The new one was also a return. I know this because in the
same box was a Tru-Trak servo and some installation intructions that the
original purchaser downloaded from Tru-Trak's website. Someone had returned
the servo and the T&B and ACS missed the fact that they were in the same
box, labeled the box as a T&B and sent it out to me. I haven't decided what
to do about this yet, as I don't really want to waste my time calling them
again, although I really should return the servo which I have no need for
anyway. Maybe I'll get around to it someday. On the other hand if Jim
Irwin is reading these posts and wants to contact me to get his servo back,
I'll gladly do so. Of course I'll also return the T&B and get one from
Stein where I should have ordered it in the first place. Or maybe someone
wants a good deal on a servo:-)
I'll still buy from ACS as I expect that this was just one of those random
glitches, but I'll probably think twice before ordering things like this
from them again.
Paul Trotter
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