---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/06/07: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 2. 06:26 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce update (n801bh@netzero.com) 3. 06:44 AM - How do you like your engine monitor? (Bob Collins) 4. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (n801bh@netzero.com) 5. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette) 6. 07:18 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway) 7. 07:19 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 8. 07:25 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Lockamy, Jack L) 9. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Ron Lee) 10. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Gerry Filby) 11. 07:42 AM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins) 12. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 13. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins) 14. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Dale Ensing) 15. 08:20 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dale Ensing) 16. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan Checkoway) 17. 08:30 AM - 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Bill Dube) 18. 08:31 AM - Exactly why we publish 24 Years of the RVator (Andy Gold) 19. 09:11 AM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette) 20. 09:15 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Terry Watson) 21. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Gerry Filby) 22. 10:45 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 (Nick Gaglia) 23. 10:45 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 (Nick Gaglia) 24. 10:54 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Ron Lee) 25. 11:14 AM - Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Jim Sears) 26. 11:18 AM - Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Aircraft Spruce Info) 27. 11:46 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Don) 28. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette) 29. 12:11 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry) 30. 12:11 PM - ground GPS (JOHN STARN) 31. 12:26 PM - Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Bill Dube) 32. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Konrad L. Werner) 33. 12:33 PM - Re: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (Bill Dube) 34. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Tim Bryan) 35. 01:17 PM - RvAtor Article Needed (John Fasching) 36. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 37. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Joseph Larson) 38. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Brian Meyette) 39. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 40. 02:28 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Bruce Gray) 41. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Tim Bryan) 42. 03:02 PM - Fuel Injection (Wheeler North) 43. 03:20 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Kyle Boatright) 44. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Kevin Horton) 45. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: JPI was Aircraft Spruce update (Tim Bryan) 46. 04:58 PM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 47. 06:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave B) 48. 09:15 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Steven DiNieri) 49. 09:35 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Konrad L. Werner) 50. 10:27 PM - Aircraft Spruce Experience (Paul Trotter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:12 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Hmm. Spout off? Sensationalize? That's interesting. I have been bringing my experience to the table in an effort to educate the users. Yes, I did not safety wire the screws, neither did the off field failure. I have received 2 listers off messages that they read these posts and also found their screws now safety wired. Im not here to spout off. Im here to learn, engage in useful dialogue, and educate where I can based on my experience. Im not an AFP basher. Dons a bright guy with an excellent product, one that I use on my plane. I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with the screws safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow divider and fuel servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but not the purge valve. Leaving this up to the installer can lead to a failure to do so. With many things on an airplane, this cant be avoided. But with this purge valve, I think it can be done simply. How many accidents do we need before it changes from dumb user error, to design change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can be avoided, does not sound like good practice. Just my 2 cents. Best, Mie -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 7:25 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations RV listers, Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the design's history. ======= BEGIN Don's Response ====== Dan, It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that are strictly in his control. You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed the present fuel regulator concept. Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul cost. Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service. The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test, and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0 leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture valve was not required. Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor. You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique, many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be .038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of the firewall. The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing. Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve. The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design, that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold the valve. So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably not, with the market as it is today. ======= END Don's Response ====== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:46 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce update Well, I was wrong when I said that Jim Irwin would not follow through an d investigate my problem with ACS. He did and contacted me with this " Ben: Thanks for your quick reply and your understanding. I am sure that the lack of the return tag was simply an oversight by whoever handled t his matter 3 years ago. All of our staff is very busy on a day to day ba sis and they probably just forgot to do the last step in the process, wh ich was to be sure to get the "short" tubing picked up. If you were char ged for the replacement tubing but never credited for the first shipment (because it was not returned), please let me know the approximate amount of the replacement invoice so we can reimburse you. I appreciate your kind words and am sorry that we could not get this resolved years ago. T hanks in advance for letting the RV readers know that we have discussed the problem. I hope that we can be of service to you sometime soon. Let me know what the cost was on that tubing! Best Regards, Jim IrwinAircraf t Spruce /////////////////////////////////////////// This the good ol ACS I rememeber when I first started my project. I hope it stays this way because I need ALOT of 4130 tubing and other stuff fo r the firewall forward packages I am about to selling. The Murphy Moose and the Bearcat kits are first. I don't even want to start on the RV-10 customers yet, those will outsell the others by 5-1. Thanks Jim for your leg work in correcting my bad experience with ACS. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try i t now. ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

Well, I was wrong when I said that Jim Irwin would not follow t hrough and investigate my problem with ACS. He did and contacted me with this "

 

 

< /TBODY>
Ben:
 
Thanks for your quick reply and your un derstanding. I am sure that the lack of the return tag was simply an ove rsight by whoever handled this matter 3 years ago. All of our staff is v ery busy on a day to day basis and they probably just forgot to do the l ast step in the process, which was to be sure to get the "short" tubing picked up. If you were charged for the replacement tubing but never cred ited for the first shipment(because it was not returned), please let me know the approximate amount of the replacement invoice so we can reimbur se you.
 
I appreciate your kind words and am sor ry that we could not get this resolved years ago. Thanks in advance for letting the RV readers know that we have discussed the problem. I hope t hat we can be of service to you sometime soon.
 
Let me know what the cost was on that t ubing!
 
Best Regards,
 
Jim Irwin
Aircraft Spruce

///////////////////////////////////////////

This the good ol ACS I rememeber when I first started my project. I h ope it stays this way because I need ALOT of 4130 tubing and other stuff for the firewall forward packages I am about to selling. The Murphy Moo se and the Bearcat kits are first. I don't even want to start on the RV- 10 customers yet, those will outsell the others by 5-1.

 Thanks Jim for your leg work in correcting my bad experience wi th ACS. 

Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com&nbs p;
Any questions? Get answers on any to pic at www.Answers.yahoo.com.  Try it now. ========================        - The RV-List E sp;many List utilities such as the Subscri ======================== ========================        - NEW MATRONICS  now also available via the Web Forums!
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________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:11 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: How do you like your engine monitor? From: "Bob Collins" As some of you know, I was intrigued reading this month's Kitplanes Magazine article on engine monitors. I thought it was a very good introduction to what they are and why builders should install them. It made me want to learn more and I'm sure that's the case with other builders too. The article didn't really do much in terms of a comparison because, as Marc Cook (editor) said on VAF, doing so would require getting various engine monitors in one place and then having the time to test each of them out; financially and practically out of the reach of most folks. While I agree with people who say "this is something you have to learn on your own," I think there's value in the experiences of those who've already gone before. So... like the transition training questionaire (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/transition_training.html) a few weeks ago for a piece in the RV Builder's Hotline, I'd like to do the same thing with engine monitors. So, if you have one, these are the questions: 1. What engine monitor did you go with. 2. In your research, what did you determine to be your priorities? 3. Have you been satisfied with it? If so, what features do you like best? 4. What do you like least about it? 5. What was your total cost? 6. Is there anything you would do differently? 7. anything else? Please send me the email off list (you can post it here too if you want but it'll be easier for me to pluck 'em off email so do that too) at rvnewsletter@comcast.net. Also if you have a picture of you and your bird, can you email that to me too? And thanks! -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93184#93184 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:26 AM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to l et the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a home built experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pi lot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a s idebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse the award. off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype. do not archive Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible ar guments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into t he instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge 's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long ar ticle, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more in formation. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal syst em is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, an d then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmi res doing that.Do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Bob Collins" wrote: Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arg uments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into th e instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge' s call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I d on't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long art icle, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more inf ormation. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal syste m is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now i s people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmir ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======

I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flyi ng a homebuilt experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have dem anded a sidebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get cha rged with the fact the pilot crashed  on his own and started the wh ole event. If there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse the award.

off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype.

do not archive

< /TR>
 

Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (incl uding assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those i diots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents availabl e to anyone who wanted more information.  You obviously didn't read any of them.  You're deciding that the legal team was negligent wi thout doing your part to inform yourself of what they did  in the f irst place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing the mselves when the information is available, and then acting on their igno rance.
 You can get yourself into a fe
w quagmires doing that.
Do not archive




Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspower air.com

-- "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast. net> wrote:

Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (incl uding assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those i diots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents availabl e to anyone who wanted more information.  You obviously didn't read any of them.  You're deciding that the legal team was negligent wi thout doing your part to inform yourself of what they did  in the f irst place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing the mselves when the information is available, and then acting on their igno rance.
 You can get yourself into a fe
w quagmires doing that.
Do not archive
 


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tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
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________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:03 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed Aha - I was unable to find it last night - I looked through all issues of 2004 and 2005. Apparently I didn't go back far enough Thanks for the tip on the Rvator index. I will add a link to it on my web site. If the original requestor still needs it, I will get it and scan it later this afternoon brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed Using the handy, dandy RVator index (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10. I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045 -- 9:58 PM -- 4:48 PM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:18 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest > portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting > to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. Don't think I saw a reply to this yet. The 396/496 have been no problem with polarized sunglasses. FWIW, the only thing I have real trouble with when wearing polarized lenses is my old ipod. And my Dynon EFIS-D10 washes out a little if you tilt your head way over...but when my head is "straight & level" it's no problem. Everything else in my panel is unaffected, including the AF-2500 engine monitor. My steam gauges are also unaffected! ;-) )_( Dan RV-7 N714D www.rvproject.com www.weathermeister.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:51 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M What exactly did you expect the defense team to do when the judge barred the jury instructions, pull out a gun? It seems to me they're availing themselves every legal remedy at their disposal; hardly indicative of incompetence. and, again, if you read the papers, you'd see that the EAA did, in fact, argue that Corbitt was the cause of the crash, and you'd also read that it was the one thing EVERYONE agreed on. However, without the proper jury instructions -- as I see it -- that point would be irrelevant. the chain of events that "start" a persons death don't relieve the responsibility of others do their job. Otherwise we can all save a lot of tax money by disbanding our police, medical, and fire teams. A crook broke into your home? don't call the cops. YOU chose to live there. Wrap yourself around the tree. Suffer, sucker, you shouldn't have been out driving. If you read the papers, you'll see that that the two sides were talking about two different incidents and it came down to whether (1) Corbitt was alive when the fire department arrive and (2) whether the fire department gave rip about #1. What caused the crash wasn't much of an argument because it wasn't one of the questions. And in a court of law, unfortunately, the law is what matters. I suspect the EAA attorneys, simply because they ARE competent, will have more success before another judge. I also would think Snohomish County would take another look at a system where several judges pop in and out of one case. That, to me, is what sunk the EAA in this case. When the music stopped, the wrong judge was sitting in the chair. Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse the award. off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype. do not archive Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that. Do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Bob Collins" wrote: Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that. Do not archive =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List =================================== tronics.com =================================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars From: "Lockamy, Jack L" I just purchased and installed a Garmin 7200 in my Titan P/U. Was using the Garmin 196 until now. The -7200 is expensive but worth every penny I paid for it! Jack ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:40 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M At 07:55 AM 2/6/2007, you wrote: >I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let >the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt >experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot >becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar >till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact >the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If there is a >silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse >the award. My one beef with your statement is the assumption that "homebuilt experimental" is more hazardous than a Cessna type aircraft. Take a Cessna, secure the yoke full aft with a seatbelt and the outcome would probably be the same as with an RV. In my opinion, if that is what happened in this case then it was pure 100% pilot error. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:59 AM PST US From: "Gerry Filby" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put together a talk on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number of installations out there at this point ... g >-----Original Message----- >From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com] >Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 04:24 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations > > >RV listers, > > >Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous >inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I >don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns & >questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his >permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit >from this in-depth explanation of the design's history. > > >======= BEGIN Don's Response ====== > > >Dan, > > >It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the >cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems >that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like >he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that >are strictly in his control. > > >You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control >valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you >have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started >our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel >injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the >inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project >engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing >problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew >that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower >requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we >wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed >the present fuel regulator concept. > > >Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw >back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of >overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without >sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul >cost. > > >Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were >expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you >used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the >parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were >easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to >control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand >lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough >tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore >that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out >of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we >could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the >material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve >gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had >any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service. >The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause >galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test, >and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve >there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0 >leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the >regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an >additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision >was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture >valve was not required. > > >Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel >injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection >like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that >the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on >the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level >pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire >wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and >nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system >was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor. >You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to >run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep >the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique, >many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the >culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel >control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on >engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer >through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder >Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to >transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide >open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel >pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be >.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never >get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is >another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of >the firewall. > > >The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel >and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the >hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an >aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system >worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also >the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure >when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine >after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel >pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after >shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure >against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started >and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this >now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing. >Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve. > > >The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a >fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design >in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter >service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a >vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks >above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be >robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve >bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been >used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few >million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of >malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not >lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design, >that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was >designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting >of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold >the valve. > > >So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control >and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that >we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo >was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues >that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old >design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a >reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You >bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems >associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably >not, with the market as it is today. > > >======= END Don's Response ====== > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:29 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed From: "Bob Collins" Whew, I was just about to walk out the door on my way to work. Good timing, so I grabbed it. It was actually written by Evan Johnson. I'll either scan it or retype it today when I'm goofing off at work. brianpublic2(at)starband. wrote: > Aha - I was unable to find it last night - I looked through all issues of > 2004 and 2005. Apparently I didn't go back far enough > Thanks for the tip on the Rvator index. I will add a link to it on my web > site. > If the original requestor still needs it, I will get it and scan it later > this afternoon > brian > > -- -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93213#93213 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:28 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M //In my opinion, if that is what happened in this case then it was pure 100% pilot error. The cause of the accident -- at the moment -- is not the subject of the court case. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:56 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed Whoops, My mistake. I originally read that you couldn't find the article. I'll stand down. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Meyette Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:11 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed --> Aha - I was unable to find it last night - I looked through all issues of 2004 and 2005. Apparently I didn't go back far enough Thanks for the tip on the Rvator index. I will add a link to it on my web site. If the original requestor still needs it, I will get it and scan it later this afternoon brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed Using the handy, dandy RVator index (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10. I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045 -- 9:58 PM -- 4:48 PM ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:38 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Collins To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:19 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I also would think Snohomish County would take another look at a system where several judges pop in and out of one case. That, to me, is what sunk the EAA in this case. When the music stopped, the wrong judge was sitting in the chair. I was rather perplexed while serving as jury Forman a few years ago when the Judge seemed biased during a criminal trial and he was rather friendly with the prosecutor. It made me want to lean the other way! The judge can be remiss in his/her duties as can the first responders to an accident. One of the reasons why we have Appeals Courts. Dale Ensing do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:24 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars FWIW, the only thing I have real trouble with when wearing polarized lenses is my old ipod. ......and the self serve gas pumps. do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:04 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Pretty sure Don actually used to offer "Fuel Injection 101" classes. The http://www.airflowperformance.com web site has an online thing for it, but I coulda sworn he held occasional weekend classes at their facility in the past. Don't quote me on that... do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry Filby To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put together a talk on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number of installations out there at this point ... g >-----Original Message----- >From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com] >Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 04:24 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations > > >RV listers, > > > >Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous >inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I >don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns & >questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his >permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit >from this in-depth explanation of the design's history. > > > >======= BEGIN Don's Response ====== > > > >Dan, > > > >It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the >cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems >that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like >he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that >are strictly in his control. > > > >You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control >valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you >have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started >our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel >injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the >inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project >engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing >problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew >that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower >requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we >wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed >the present fuel regulator concept. > > > >Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw >back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of >overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without >sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul >cost. > > > >Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were >expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you >used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the >parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were >easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to >control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand >lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough >tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore >that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out >of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we >could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the >material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve >gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had >any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service. >The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause >galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test, >and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve >there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0 >leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the >regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an >additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision >was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture >valve was not required. > > > >Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel >injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection >like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that >the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on >the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level >pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire >wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and >nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system >was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor. >You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to >run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep >the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique, >many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the >culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel >control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on >engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer >through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder >Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to >transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide >open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel >pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be >.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never >get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is >another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of >the firewall. > > > >The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel >and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the >hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an >aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system >worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also >the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure >when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine >after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel >pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after >shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure >against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started >and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this >now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing. >Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve. > > > >The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a >fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design >in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter >service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a >vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks >above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be >robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve >bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been >used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few >million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of >malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not >lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design, >that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was >designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting >of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold >the valve. > > > >So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control >and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that >we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo >was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues >that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old >design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a >reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You >bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems >associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably >not, with the market as it is today. > > > >======= END Don's Response ====== > > > > =========== =========== =========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:52 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RV-List: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery Well, I said I was going to do it and we finally got the prototype built. We just built a 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr, battery that weighs just 3.7 pounds. I've been testing it in my GMC van for the past week here in the Denver Winter. It snaps the van right over every morning without a problem. The van cranks faster than it did with the standard lead-acid battery. It is smaller than the Odyssey 680 so it fit in the same battery box with a couple of foam blocks for spacers. The battery has four status LEDs that tell you the cell balancing electronics are working OK. We are using A123 Systems M1 cells with our own custom battery management electronics. The A123 Systems cells are proven to be the safest Li-Ion cells on the market. No problems with fires (like laptop cells) because the chemistry they use is completely different. The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last you for many years. I think we will be in production in about a month, maybe two. Specs: 3.7 lbs 600 cranking amps 11.5 amp-hr Approximate maximum dimensions: 3" wide, 5" long, 7" tall (including terminals) Charging voltage = 13.8 to 15.0 volts (anywhere in this range is OK) Nominal voltage = 13.2 volts (Just a touch higher than your typical lead-acid, so it spins the starter a touch faster.) Cell cycle life rated at 2000 cycles (80% DOD, 90% capacity remaining) 10,000 cycles (80% DOD with 50% capacity remaining) @25 C Cell specs: http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/ANR26650M1specs.pdf Maintenance free No heavy metals (iron-phosphate type cells) At this time, we estimate the retail price will be $595. (Yeah, I know this is not cheap, but this is the state-of-the-art battery technology so the parts to make it are not cheap.) Here is a picture of the prototype. We have it in a clear Lexan case so we can keep an eye on it. The production battery will have a smaller opaque case with a clear top lid (terminal end.) http://www.killacycle.com/photos/aircraft-battery/Prototype1InVan.JPG We have been racing these cells in the KillaCycle for about a year, so we know _all_ about them. http://www.KillaCycle.com (Be sure to watch the movie clip.) Bill Dube' bike@KillaCycle.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:05 AM PST US From: "Andy Gold" Subject: RV-List: Exactly why we publish 24 Years of the RVator Exactly why we wrote and Publish the 24 Years of the RVator book. Andy Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Collins" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 3:34 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed > > Using the handy, dandy RVator index > (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you > want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10. > > I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you. > > -------- > Bob Collins > St. Paul, Minn. > RV Builder's Hotline (free!) > http://rvhotline.expercraft.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045 > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:43 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed Here ya go brian http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:28 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find it...would really appreicate it. Thanks again John n1cxo320@salidaco.com -- 4:48 PM ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:38 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all or too much light and therefore vision. Was that all wrong? Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:19 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest > portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting > to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. Don't think I saw a reply to this yet. The 396/496 have been no problem with polarized sunglasses. FWIW, the only thing I have real trouble with when wearing polarized lenses is my old ipod. And my Dynon EFIS-D10 washes out a little if you tilt your head way over...but when my head is "straight & level" it's no problem. Everything else in my panel is unaffected, including the AF-2500 engine monitor. My steam gauges are also unaffected! ;-) )_( Dan RV-7 N714D www.rvproject.com www.weathermeister.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:14 AM PST US From: "Gerry Filby" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Looks like there's a class beginning of March and November ... hmm, Marc h isn't going to be doable for me ... g -----Original Message----- From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 08:23 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Pretty sure Don actually used to offer "Fuel Injection 101" classes. The http://www.airflowperformance.com web site has an online thing for it, bu t I coulda sworn he held occasional weekend classes at their facility in the past. Don't quote me on that... do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From:Gerry Filby To:rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put togeth er a talk on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number of inst allations out there at this point ... g >-----Original Message----- >From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com] >Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 04:24 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations > > >RV listers, > > >Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previ ous >inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I >don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns & >questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his >permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefi t >from this in-depth explanation of the design's history. > > >======= BEGIN Don's Response ====== > > >Dan, > > >It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the >cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It se ems >that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off l ike >he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events tha t >are strictly in his control. > > >You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture cont rol >valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you >have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we start ed >our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel >injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of th e >inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the pro ject >engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing >problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we kn ew >that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsep ower >requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we >wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designe d >the present fuel regulator concept. > > >Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw >back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of >overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count witho ut >sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhau l >cost. > > >Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves wer e >expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless y ou >used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the >parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were >easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy t o >control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be ha nd >lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough >tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore >that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out >of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we >could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the >material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valv e >gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't ha d >any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service . >The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can caus e >galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after tes t, >and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary val ve >there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0 >leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the >regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an >additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the deci sion >was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixtu re >valve was not required. > > >Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel >injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel inject ion >like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that >the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on >the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level >pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire >wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and >nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering sys tem >was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor . >You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had t o >run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to k eep >the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique , >many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the >culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel >control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on >engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would tran sfer >through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylin der >Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to >transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle w ide >open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel >pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be >.038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never >get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is >another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of >the firewall. > > >The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fu el >and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the >hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an >aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The syst em >worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. A lso >the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressur e >when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine >after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel >pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after >shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump press ure >against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage star ted >and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about th is >now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thi ng. >Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve. > > >The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a >fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what desi gn >in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter >service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a >vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tank s >above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be >robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve >bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been >used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a fe w >million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of >malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not >lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same desi gn, >that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was >designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the vent ing >of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hol d >the valve. > > >So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control >and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements tha t >we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status qu o >was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues >that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old >design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a >reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You >bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems >associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Proba bly >not, with the market as it is today. > > >======= END Don's Response ====== > > =========== =========== =========== > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:13 AM PST US From: Nick Gaglia Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 I have had the Nuvi 660 for a week and love it, much better that the Hertz Magellan, never lost, which I use regular. Nuvi 660 has large screen, small enough to slip in a coat pocket, no wires. You can see one at Best Buy. Regards Nick RV-8 -----Original Message----- From: RV-List Digest Server [mailto:rv-list@matronics.com] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:58 PM Subject: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-02-05&Archive=RV Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2007-02-05&Archive=RV =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/05/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen) 2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 3. 08:19 AM - Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum (Mitchell Faatz) 4. 09:55 AM - RV6A Project for Sale (Gene Gottschalk) 5. 10:13 AM - Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry) 6. 10:38 AM - Texas Visit (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI) 7. 11:12 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway) 8. 11:48 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (bill shook) 9. 11:58 AM - Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior) 10. 12:42 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (smitty@smittysrv.com) 11. 01:01 PM - RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching) 12. 01:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Bill & Tami Britton) 13. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior) 14. 01:49 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette) 15. 01:58 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (linn Walters) 16. 02:28 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching) 17. 02:34 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior) 18. 02:35 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins) 19. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan Checkoway) 20. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (linn Walters) 21. 08:53 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave Nellis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M From: "Chuck Jensen" If the instructions were faulty, the defense attorneys were more culpable than that. Jury instructions are not extemporaneous. Competing instructions are submitted to the Judge, he blends them together, the blended instructions are then given to the attorneys to give them an opportunity to object, then they are given to the Jury. However, if they may well have objected to the addition, or omission, of parts of the instructions and the Judge decided against them. Of course, the challenge to the instructions can then be a basis for an appeal. It's never simple. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:33 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Those instructions were given in open court in front of the defense, plaintiff, jury and anyone in the courtroom. The legal team for the EAA and the Arlington flyin were grossly negligent in their duties. One of those idiots should have spoke up and objected right then... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Bob Collins" wrote: // The jury is there to act as a check on defective and illogical laws. When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as most jurors do, you preserve these defective laws. The same goes for those who vote for and support clearly unconstitutional laws. My guess is that this includes many here who complain loudly about this particular case in which their own person ox was gored. As the article pointe dout (and I sure hope folks read it), the problem in this case wasn't identified as the instructions the jurors got; it was the the instructions the jurors DIDN'T get. Do not archive. tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:06 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:06 AM PST US From: Mitchell Faatz Subject: RV-List: Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum Okay, I'm at whit's end. I've spend the last couple weeks trying to track down a high pitched "hum" on the NAV 1 audio coming from my new Garmin 430. I have the Approach Systems Pro-G hub and cable harnesses, which they just replaced to see if that solves the hum (the hum would cut in and out when I tugged on the harness so I suspected the harness). Well, I just spent several more hours installing the new harness to where I could test it, and the hum is now there all the time. Wiggling the harness no longer makes the hum cut in and out :( I've done further troubleshooting: - all Circuit Breaks pulled except NAV (10amp) and COM (5 amp) - all fuses pulled (everything off except Garmin 430) - everything in hangar turned off (lights, heaters, etc) - tried both switching power supply and aircraft battery. - probed pin 23 on hub AUDIO PANEL HD44, hearing hum - probed pin 10 on COMM 1 cable going to HD26, hearing hum - pulled EVERY ground off forest-of-tabs grounding block except battery contactor, still hearing hum - swapped Garmin 430's with my hangar mate, still hearing hum. SO, it seems like the radio is not the problem, and the only thing between the radio and the headphones is the wire harness! Which is the second one from Approach Systems, I can't imagine it also has a problem but you never know. Here's another funny thing, even with all the grounds pulled off the Garmin 430 it's still running, does it get grounded through the case and/or plug shields? P.S. Approach Systems gets an A+++ in my book, they have been extremely responsive to my emails even on weekends. Help! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:22 AM PST US From: Gene Gottschalk Subject: RV-List: RV6A Project for Sale Includes: empanage - done wings - done except for starboard main skins fuselage - bottom done, ready to fit wings, includes metal jig finishing kit - not started almost every option Vans offers, sliding canopy, electric and manual flaps, etc. flight instruments, strobes, 5 point harnesses, many other parts, too many to mention here all documents and logs contact me back channel for complete listing and pricing Gene Gottschalk miranda@tartan30.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:42 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations? Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:40 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Texas Visit From: "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" Listers - I have a TDY scheduled for Feb 26 - Mar 02 in San Antonio (Lackland). We need a place to tie down a butt-ugly C-210. Any recommendations? Neal RV-7 N8ZG (wiring) Navarre, FL W - 850-884-9121 C - 850-218-4838 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:10 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as > the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I > used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:49 AM PST US From: bill shook Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Garmin c340.....very nice unit. Bill --- Tedd McHenry wrote: > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:05 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry wrote: > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable > systems are to what I used. Recommendations? Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the use-in-your-car models. Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around in air, for example). But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I haven't done that. -Rob ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:50 PM PST US From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. Smitty http://SmittysRV.com Original Message: ----------------- From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as > the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I > used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:51 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped keeping them I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in advance. PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling. John at Salida, CO n1cxo320@salidaco.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:34 PM PST US From: "Bill & Tami Britton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V). The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas. Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction) compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps. I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker system. Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!! Good luck hunting, Bill Britton RV-10 Emp #40137 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > > Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest > portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting > to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. > > Smitty > http://SmittysRV.com > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > > Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and > we > love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model > (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you > can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. > > do not archive > )_( Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tedd McHenry" > To: "RV List" > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM > Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > >> >> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such > as >> the >> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite >> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I >> used. >> Recommendations? >> >> Tedd McHenry >> Surrey, BC, Canada >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint > > > -- > 9:58 PM > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:40 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars Whoops, that was supposed to be off-list. Sorry everyone! -Rob do not archive On 12:00 2007-02-05 "Rob Prior" wrote: > > On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry wrote: > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, > > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental > > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the > > portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations? > > Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). > They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling > somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's > capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the > use-in-your-car models. > > Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their > other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more > weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might > translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around > in air, for example). > > But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do > turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I > haven't done that. > > -Rob > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:38 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed Ill pick mine up tonight and scan it tomorrow, if someone else hasnt done it by then brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped keeping them I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in advance. PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling. John at Salida, CO n1cxo320@salidaco.com -- 9:58 PM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:40 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Bill & Tami Britton wrote: > > I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them > to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo > setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than > the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the > $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this > thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the > $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount > for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V). > The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas. Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from Radio Shack. Linn > > > Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with > US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while > waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), > built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X > 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz > processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn > indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction) > compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with > voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level > selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download > pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal > speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember > right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with > Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps. > > I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has > internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF > modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker > system. > > Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy > something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price > of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a > 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. > For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to > look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very > readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!! > > Good luck hunting, > Bill Britton > RV-10 Emp #40137 > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > >> >> >> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest >> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm >> getting >> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. >> >> Smitty >> http://SmittysRV.com >> >> >> Original Message: >> ----------------- >> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com >> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800 >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >> >> >> >> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 >> and >> we >> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper >> model >> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen >> that you >> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. >> >> do not archive >> )_( Dan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" >> >> To: "RV List" >> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM >> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >> >> >>> >>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such >> >> as >> >>> the >>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was >>> quite >>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to >>> what I >>> used. >>> Recommendations? >>> >>> Tedd McHenry >>> Surrey, BC, Canada >>> DO NOT ARCHIVE >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? >> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 9:58 PM >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:37 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: Re: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find it...would really appreicate it. Thanks again John n1cxo320@salidaco.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:41 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars On 14:01 2007-02-05 linn Walters wrote: > > My only complaint is it > > does not have a home charger (120V). > > Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a > 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work > ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from > Radio Shack. Caution! Most car outlets are capable of putting out 8A, or higher. Your GPS may be designed to rapid charge by drawing a high current from your cigarette lighter. If that's the case, you would need an AC wall adapter capable of putting out 8A at 12V, and that'll be both large and expensive. Check the GPS itself, and see what the rating is for the DC input. It should be stamped on the unit somewhere, but if not it'll be in the manual. Look for the voltage and current ratings. You need to buy a wall-wart that matches the voltage exactly, and puts out at least that much current (higher won't hurt, the unit will only draw what it needs). For example, if it says 12V/300mA, buying a 12V/500mA wall supply will work just fine (and it may be hard to find a 300mA supply anyway). Other than that, make sure you get + and - right. You could destroy your nice little GPS if you get it backwards and the GPS isn't designed to handle it. -Rob ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:00 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed From: "Bob Collins" Using the handy, dandy RVator index (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10. I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:11 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations RV listers, Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the design's history. ======= BEGIN Don's Response ===== Dan, It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that are strictly in his control. You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed the present fuel regulator concept. Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul cost. Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service. The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test, and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0 leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture valve was not required. Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor. You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique, many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be .038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of the firewall. The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing. Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve. The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design, that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold the valve. So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably not, with the market as it is today. ======= END Don's Response ===== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:08 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Great response!!! Thanks Dan & Don! This is the education I was looking for. I've saved the email so that I can revisit it when the time comes to decide what I'm going to do with my installation. This email should put some of the urban legend stuff to bed. In all my dealings with engines over the years, I learned that there are methods of starting an engine that woprk, and those that don't. I developed a great set of abs and stomach muscles learning to prop my Pitts ..... unfortunately, I learned to prop it the easy way! :-P Again, thanks to Dan & Don. Linn do not archive Dan Checkoway wrote: > > RV listers, > > > Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my > previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in > ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to > address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his > response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt > this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the > design's history. snip ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:17 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You can program what areas you want to cover. I live in Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there are a lot of other programs available as well. If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit that includes the car kit accessories. I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to establish routes on roads while flying, but I would not use this unit for AIRNAV. Dave Nellis N410DN (Res.) RV7A Slider --- Tedd McHenry wrote: > > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS > units for cars, such as the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a > rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable > systems are to what I used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Web Forums! > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:14 AM PST US From: Nick Gaglia Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 I have had the Nuvi 660 for a week and love it, much better that the Hertz Magellan, never lost, which I use regular. Nuvi 660 has large screen, small enough to slip in a coat pocket, no wires. You can see one at Best Buy. Regards Nick RV-8 -----Original Message----- From: RV-List Digest Server [mailto:rv-list@matronics.com] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:58 PM Subject: RV-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 02/05/07 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-02-05&Archive=RV Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2007-02-05&Archive=RV =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/05/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:13 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen) 2. 06:15 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 3. 08:19 AM - Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum (Mitchell Faatz) 4. 09:55 AM - RV6A Project for Sale (Gene Gottschalk) 5. 10:13 AM - Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tedd McHenry) 6. 10:38 AM - Texas Visit (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI) 7. 11:12 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dan Checkoway) 8. 11:48 AM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (bill shook) 9. 11:58 AM - Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior) 10. 12:42 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (smitty@smittysrv.com) 11. 01:01 PM - RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching) 12. 01:37 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Bill & Tami Britton) 13. 01:46 PM - Re: Re: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior) 14. 01:49 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Brian Meyette) 15. 01:58 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (linn Walters) 16. 02:28 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (John Fasching) 17. 02:34 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Rob Prior) 18. 02:35 PM - Re: RVAtor Article Needed (Bob Collins) 19. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (Dan Checkoway) 20. 06:45 PM - Re: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (linn Walters) 21. 08:53 PM - Re: Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Dave Nellis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M From: "Chuck Jensen" If the instructions were faulty, the defense attorneys were more culpable than that. Jury instructions are not extemporaneous. Competing instructions are submitted to the Judge, he blends them together, the blended instructions are then given to the attorneys to give them an opportunity to object, then they are given to the Jury. However, if they may well have objected to the addition, or omission, of parts of the instructions and the Judge decided against them. Of course, the challenge to the instructions can then be a basis for an appeal. It's never simple. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:33 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Those instructions were given in open court in front of the defense, plaintiff, jury and anyone in the courtroom. The legal team for the EAA and the Arlington flyin were grossly negligent in their duties. One of those idiots should have spoke up and objected right then... do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Bob Collins" wrote: // The jury is there to act as a check on defective and illogical laws. When you agree to "check your brain at the door" as most jurors do, you preserve these defective laws. The same goes for those who vote for and support clearly unconstitutional laws. My guess is that this includes many here who complain loudly about this particular case in which their own person ox was gored. As the article pointe dout (and I sure hope folks read it), the problem in this case wasn't identified as the instructions the jurors got; it was the the instructions the jurors DIDN'T get. Do not archive. tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:06 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:06 AM PST US From: Mitchell Faatz Subject: RV-List: Garmin 430: Nav 1 audio hum Okay, I'm at whit's end. I've spend the last couple weeks trying to track down a high pitched "hum" on the NAV 1 audio coming from my new Garmin 430. I have the Approach Systems Pro-G hub and cable harnesses, which they just replaced to see if that solves the hum (the hum would cut in and out when I tugged on the harness so I suspected the harness). Well, I just spent several more hours installing the new harness to where I could test it, and the hum is now there all the time. Wiggling the harness no longer makes the hum cut in and out :( I've done further troubleshooting: - all Circuit Breaks pulled except NAV (10amp) and COM (5 amp) - all fuses pulled (everything off except Garmin 430) - everything in hangar turned off (lights, heaters, etc) - tried both switching power supply and aircraft battery. - probed pin 23 on hub AUDIO PANEL HD44, hearing hum - probed pin 10 on COMM 1 cable going to HD26, hearing hum - pulled EVERY ground off forest-of-tabs grounding block except battery contactor, still hearing hum - swapped Garmin 430's with my hangar mate, still hearing hum. SO, it seems like the radio is not the problem, and the only thing between the radio and the headphones is the wire harness! Which is the second one from Approach Systems, I can't imagine it also has a problem but you never know. Here's another funny thing, even with all the grounds pulled off the Garmin 430 it's still running, does it get grounded through the case and/or plug shields? P.S. Approach Systems gets an A+++ in my book, they have been extremely responsive to my emails even on weekends. Help! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:22 AM PST US From: Gene Gottschalk Subject: RV-List: RV6A Project for Sale Includes: empanage - done wings - done except for starboard main skins fuselage - bottom done, ready to fit wings, includes metal jig finishing kit - not started almost every option Vans offers, sliding canopy, electric and manual flaps, etc. flight instruments, strobes, 5 point harnesses, many other parts, too many to mention here all documents and logs contact me back channel for complete listing and pricing Gene Gottschalk miranda@tartan30.org ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:42 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations? Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:40 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Texas Visit From: "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" Listers - I have a TDY scheduled for Feb 26 - Mar 02 in San Antonio (Lackland). We need a place to tie down a butt-ugly C-210. Any recommendations? Neal RV-7 N8ZG (wiring) Navarre, FL W - 850-884-9121 C - 850-218-4838 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:10 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as > the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I > used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:49 AM PST US From: bill shook Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Garmin c340.....very nice unit. Bill --- Tedd McHenry wrote: > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > > > Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:05 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry wrote: > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the portable > systems are to what I used. Recommendations? Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the use-in-your-car models. Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around in air, for example). But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I haven't done that. -Rob ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:50 PM PST US From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. Smitty http://SmittysRV.com Original Message: ----------------- From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and we love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such as > the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I > used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:51 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped keeping them I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in advance. PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling. John at Salida, CO n1cxo320@salidaco.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:34 PM PST US From: "Bill & Tami Britton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V). The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas. Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction) compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps. I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker system. Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!! Good luck hunting, Bill Britton RV-10 Emp #40137 ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > > Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest > portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm getting > to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. > > Smitty > http://SmittysRV.com > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > > Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 and > we > love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper model > (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen that you > can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. > > do not archive > )_( Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tedd McHenry" > To: "RV List" > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM > Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > >> >> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such > as >> the >> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was quite >> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to what I >> used. >> Recommendations? >> >> Tedd McHenry >> Surrey, BC, Canada >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint > > > -- > 9:58 PM > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:40 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: GPS for Cars Whoops, that was supposed to be off-list. Sorry everyone! -Rob do not archive On 12:00 2007-02-05 "Rob Prior" wrote: > > On 10:12 2007-02-05 Tedd McHenry wrote: > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, > > such as the Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental > > car and was quite impressed, but I don't know how close the > > portable systems are to what I used. Recommendations? > > Talk to Chris and Joan Cox at the next meeting (tomorrow night, btw). > They bought a Garmin car-mounted GPS, and used it travelling > somewhere in the fall, and were extremely impressed with it's > capabilities. I don't think it was a Nuvi, but it was one of the > use-in-your-car models. > > Garmin now makes a motorcycle-oriented one, which is just like their > other ones but more usable when wearing gloves, and more > weather-resistant. I was thinking that the glove-usability might > translate into good in-flight usability (while you're bouncing around > in air, for example). > > But in the meantime, my Garmin 76CS will do me fine. It will do > turn-by-turn navigating if you buy the turn-by-turn maps for it, but I > haven't done that. > > -Rob > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:38 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed Ill pick mine up tonight and scan it tomorrow, if someone else hasnt done it by then brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Fasching Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 4:01 PM Subject: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed I had been passing along my RvAtor issues to another RV builder and stopped keeping them I just found the start of the dreaded slosh peeling and e-mailed to and was answered by Ken at Van's who made some recommendations. He mentioned that about two years ago he wrote an article in the RvAtor about opening the tanks and cleaning out the gook. I don't have that issue any more and wondered if someone would be kind enough to scan it to me. Thanks in advance. PS It took about 12-years for the stuff to begin peeling. John at Salida, CO n1cxo320@salidaco.com -- 9:58 PM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:40 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Bill & Tami Britton wrote: > > I was looking at Tom Tom's before Christmas for my wife. Compared them > to the Garmin and several other units. I ended up buying a cheapo > setup from Sears. They had it on sale at the time for much less than > the others. Turns out it is a very nice little unit. I've used the > $3500 optional big screen navigation unit in my parents Tahoe and this > thing does everything and more than it does. I think I paid in the > $250 - 300 range. It's got a car charger and stick on window mount > for it. My only complaint is it does not have a home charger (120V). > The unit is called a Dual Navigation by Navatlas. Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from Radio Shack. Linn > > > Features include: 3.5" LCD Touch Screen, 1GB SD card pre loaded with > US Map Database, a reversi game (excellent to pass the time while > waiting in the car while your wife blows your money at Wal-Mart), > built-in MP3 player, approximately 2 million points of interest, 320 X > 240 resolution, Windows CE NET 4.2 operating system, 400 MHz > processor, SirRFIII GPS chip module, Bi-Color LED left/right turn > indicators (lights flash when you need to turn either direction) > compact size (5.25" X 3.13" X 1.25") turn by turn instructions with > voice guidance, 2D/3D map views with day and night modes, 9 level > selectable zoom, multimedia player/image viewer (you can download > pictures or video into this unit and play them back), internal > speakers, and 3.5mm audio output (for headphones if I remember > right). Also has a soft carry case and a downloadable DVD with > Canada, Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico maps. > > I guess I do have one more thing to say about it. It only has > internal speakers for music playback. I wish it had a built in RF > modulator so music could be played back over your vehicles speaker > system. > > Very nice little unit for the money. Others will tell you to buy > something that can be used for flying also. I figured for the price > of this thing I would put it in my wife's van and I'd save up for a > 496 or something else. Not sure about the polarized glasses thing. > For the price difference I'd take my glasses off for an instant to > look at the unit. I have had it in direct sunlight and it has a very > readable screen in sunlight IMHO!!! > > Good luck hunting, > Bill Britton > RV-10 Emp #40137 > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > >> >> >> Which brings up another question. Can you see the screens on newest >> portable aviation Garmin GPS units with polarized sunglasses? I'm >> getting >> to upgrade my old Garmin portable unit. >> >> Smitty >> http://SmittysRV.com >> >> >> Original Message: >> ----------------- >> From: Dan Checkoway dan@rvproject.com >> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:10:31 -0800 >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >> >> >> >> Four people in my family (including my wife & me) use the Garmin C530 >> and >> we >> love it. Good bang for the buck imho. Would have bought a cheaper >> model >> (basically the same features) but the C530 has the type of screen >> that you >> can still see with polarized glasses...important to me. >> >> do not archive >> )_( Dan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" >> >> To: "RV List" >> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:12 AM >> Subject: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >> >> >>> >>> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS units for cars, such >> >> as >> >>> the >>> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a rental car and was >>> quite >>> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable systems are to >>> what I >>> used. >>> Recommendations? >>> >>> Tedd McHenry >>> Surrey, BC, Canada >>> DO NOT ARCHIVE >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? >> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> 9:58 PM >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:37 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: Re: RV-List: RVAtor Article Needed Thanks, Brian, I have been searching the internet and can't find it...would really appreicate it. Thanks again John n1cxo320@salidaco.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:41 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars On 14:01 2007-02-05 linn Walters wrote: > > My only complaint is it > > does not have a home charger (120V). > > Bill ..... Check the wattage usage ...... but any wall charger for a > 12V battery powered drill that's around 500 Ma (1/2 Amp) should work > ...... just cut the plug off and add a cigarette lighter socket from > Radio Shack. Caution! Most car outlets are capable of putting out 8A, or higher. Your GPS may be designed to rapid charge by drawing a high current from your cigarette lighter. If that's the case, you would need an AC wall adapter capable of putting out 8A at 12V, and that'll be both large and expensive. Check the GPS itself, and see what the rating is for the DC input. It should be stamped on the unit somewhere, but if not it'll be in the manual. Look for the voltage and current ratings. You need to buy a wall-wart that matches the voltage exactly, and puts out at least that much current (higher won't hurt, the unit will only draw what it needs). For example, if it says 12V/300mA, buying a 12V/500mA wall supply will work just fine (and it may be hard to find a 300mA supply anyway). Other than that, make sure you get + and - right. You could destroy your nice little GPS if you get it backwards and the GPS isn't designed to handle it. -Rob ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:00 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed From: "Bob Collins" Using the handy, dandy RVator index (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10. I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:11 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations RV listers, Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the design's history. ======= BEGIN Don's Response ===== Dan, It saddens me to hear of incidents let alone ones that are strictly the cause of poor judgment, practice, attention; you know what I mean. It seems that Michael Stewart has his opinion and that's fine, but to spout off like he does, is kind of up setting, as he seems to sensationalize events that are strictly in his control. You had made comment that you wanted to know more about the mixture control valve design. To completely understand the reasoning behind this design you have to know a little history of how this all got started. When we started our company in 1984 I had already 10 years experience with aircraft fuel injection systems at the Bendix Corporation. Being the under study of the inventor of the RS and RSA fuel injection system and later being the project engineer on that product line gave me insight into the manufacturing problems and cost associated the RSA design. In Airflow's infancy, we knew that we would have to design a system to satisfy a large range of horsepower requirements with a minimum of part and tooling changes. Knowing that we wanted to be able to run engines from around 80 HP to 1000 HP we designed the present fuel regulator concept. Studying the needs in the aviation field we constantly heard of the big draw back to fuel injection was 1) initial cost, 2) hot starts, 3) high cost of overhaul. In this design we determined that eliminating part count without sacrificing performance would help with manufacturing costs, and overhaul cost. Studying various manufacturing techniques, we knew that plate valves were expensive to make (high part count) were susceptible to scoring unless you used some expensive materials and there's always the issue of making the parts flat (specialized equipment). Rotary valves on the other hand were easy to control in manufacture (OD grinding) and round bores were easy to control with honing. This would allow parts that would not have to be hand lapped or fitted. The round parts could be made with tight enough tolerances that matched parts were not necessary. Having a through bore that both idle and mixture valves ran in gave the bonus of getting cost out of manufacturing as through bore honing would hold the bore straight and we could easily hold + .0005" on the entire bore. Brass was chosen as the material to run in an anodized honed bore. Designing the L/D of the valve gave excellent bearing surface and I have to admit, we really haven't had any problems with wear or scoring of these parts in 20+ years of service. The only down side is continued actuation of the parts when dry can cause galling of the valve. This is solved by oil flushing the parts after test, and in service the parts are always in fuel. Of course with a rotary valve there has to be clearance for the valve to rotate, therefore ICO cannot be 0 leak. We also only shut off the metered side of the circuit in the regulator. This removed the additional parts required to mechanize an additional valve to shut off this side of the circuit and since the decision was made to use the purge valve as standard equipment, a zero leak mixture valve was not required. Hot starts were a common problem with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems, and even some early mechanical automotive fuel injection like the Bosch K Jetronic suffered from this problem. We determined that the hot start problem was due to heat soak on the fuel system components on the engine. Since fuel boiled at around 130 degrees F at sea level pressure, after the engine shut down the fuel on the engine side of the fire wall in the hoses, engine driven fuel pump, fuel control, flow divider, and nozzle lines would be partially boiled away. Since the fuel metering system was non-returning, there was no way to get rid of the hot fuel and vapor. You had to start the engine flooded or when the engine started you had to run it up excessively to pass the vapor through the metering system to keep the engine running. Some people didn't have problems with this technique, many did. The components that held the most volume of fuel were the culprits. The #6 fuel hoses, the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel control. Since our metering system metered fuel to the engine based on engine airflow consumption there was a limit on how fast fuel would transfer through the system when the engine was not running. On a typical 4 cylinder Lycoming the normal calibration set up allowed about 1 cup of fuel to transfer through the system in 45 seconds of purging with the throttle wide open. This would pretty much exchange the fuel in the engine driven fuel pump and the fuel control and hoses. At idle the fuel transfer would be .038 cup of fuel in one minute. This is why idling the engine will never get the air out of the system, well at least not for 26 minutes. This is another reason we want to minimize the volume of fuel on the engine side of the firewall. The purge valve was designed on the premise that cleaning out the hot fuel and vapor from the engine driven pump, fuel control and hoses would cure the hot start problem. The first system was installed on an IGSO 480 in an aerobatic airplane, which was pretty much unstartable when hot. The system worked quite well with pretty much the same start routine hot or cold. Also the benefit with the purge valve was that it would dump the fuel pressure when the engine was shut off to keep fuel from bleeding into the engine after shut down. This was a problem with engines using diaphragm fuel pumps. We always had complaints of fuel dripping into the air box after shut down on Bendix servos which basically dead head the fuel pump pressure against a plate valve. When the plate valve scored a little leakage started and the engine would not shut down clean. People whine and moan about this now, but 30 years ago when I was working at Bendix we heard the same thing. Thus, another reason for the design of the purge valve. The purge valve design was not something we designed from scratch with a fresh sheet of paper. The basic valve design was studied as to what design in the field gave the most trouble free service. Looking at helicopter service, we found that that seemed to get the most abuse. From both a vibration and wear stand point this installation typically had fuel tanks above the engine so the valve had to be near zero leak as possible, yet be robust enough to withstand the harsh environment it was in. So the valve bushing was used from a RSA-7 fuel regulator. This same design had been used on all Hughes 300 and Beechcraft Baron 58P installations. With a few million flight hours accumulated, there had been not one incident of malfunction of the valve, let alone the screw backing out because it was not lockwired. The idle valve bushing on these fuel servos had the same design, that is, being held in by one screw. Thus the Airflow purge valve was designed to mimic the Bendix design, with some minor changes in the venting of the ports in the bushing, and of course a housing was designed to hold the valve. So there you have it. A history and reasoning behind the mixture control and purge valve design. This design was done to satisfy requirements that we determined customers wanted in the field. After all, if the status quo was accepted, why build anything? It would not address any of the issues that existed, and you would end up with a clone of the same 40-year-old design. Kind of like a Silver Hawk. All of these parts were designed for a reason and with lot of forethought. Are there other ways to do it? You bet. Is there a better cost effective way to address the problems associated with low-pressure non-returning fuel injection systems? Probably not, with the market as it is today. ======= END Don's Response ===== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:08 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Great response!!! Thanks Dan & Don! This is the education I was looking for. I've saved the email so that I can revisit it when the time comes to decide what I'm going to do with my installation. This email should put some of the urban legend stuff to bed. In all my dealings with engines over the years, I learned that there are methods of starting an engine that woprk, and those that don't. I developed a great set of abs and stomach muscles learning to prop my Pitts ..... unfortunately, I learned to prop it the easy way! :-P Again, thanks to Dan & Don. Linn do not archive Dan Checkoway wrote: > > RV listers, > > > Don Rivera from Airflow Performance (AFP) responded off-list to my > previous inquiry, asking about the rationale for having a designed-in > ICO leak. I don't know too many manufacturers who take the time to > address concerns & questions in such detail. What follows is his > response. I have his permission to post it where required, and I felt > this forum would benefit from this in-depth explanation of the > design's history. snip ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:17 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You can program what areas you want to cover. I live in Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there are a lot of other programs available as well. If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit that includes the car kit accessories. I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to establish routes on roads while flying, but I would not use this unit for AIRNAV. Dave Nellis N410DN (Res.) RV7A Slider --- Tedd McHenry wrote: > > > Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS > units for cars, such as the > Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a > rental car and was quite > impressed, but I don't know how close the portable > systems are to what I used. > Recommendations? > > Tedd McHenry > Surrey, BC, Canada > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Web Forums! > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:22 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RE: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses >were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain >orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all >or too much light and therefore vision. > >Was that all wrong? > >Terry I can't say that it is wrong but I have never experienced an issue so the probability must be exceedingly small that it would happen. I would put bird strikes and flat tires as higher probability events. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:28 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery >> At this time, we estimate the retail price will be $595. (Yeah, I know >> this is not cheap, but this is the state-of-the-art battery technology so >> the parts to make it are not cheap.) << Whoee!!!! At that price, someone else can do the field testing of that state-of-the-art product. I'll stick with proven heavier batteries and put the money saved into something else! I'm sure there'll be some who will want to give it a go, though. To some, a pound saved is worth a mint. :-) >>The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last you for many years.<< To me, some of these exotic batteries are just too fragile to our bungling ways to make it worth the cost, no matter how great the performance. It's like we've learned in model aviation. A NiCD battery is awfully hard to beat for day to day usage and mistreatment, even if they do weigh a tad more. They cost far less, as well. Those of us who fly models on a lean budget are more likely to stay away from Li-poly, the A123 Systems M1, and such. We just can't see leaving the safety of something that works well to jump into the fire (sometimes literally with Li-poly batteries) to try the exotics. Of course, it would be different, if we were flying electrics. For those guys, every ounce of weight saved and amp of capacity gained is worth the cost. :-) Just recently, my RV's Concorde RG 25XC battery had to take the punishment he just described. The voltage regulator quit during some night landings. The battery got down to about 8V before I caught it. Some things kinda quit working well, about that time. :-( Shame on me for not catching it; but, I was having fun with the night landings. After I replaced the voltage regulator, and recharged the battery some, the recharge during the next flight pushed 16V until it stabilized a few minutes into the flight. I can't tell any difference in the battery's performance. It still spins the engine crisply on these cold mornings. Of course, none of us ever leave the master on. Do we? :-( I'll stick with the proven stuff, for now. If some of you Listers try this offering, please report your findings to us poor folks. It sems to me, there will have to be some kind of device installed with the battery to prevent low voltage, over voltage, and that forgetful mind that leaves on the master. Otherwise, a promising product could get a bad reputation before it gets a fair shake out. Am I wrong on this? Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:22 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update From: "Aircraft Spruce Info" We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one that was critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted some very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in dealing with Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and your support. These comments were in response to a former customer's posting regarding a custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from several years ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership with Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and panel work are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel specialists and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received from our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had with the tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing the best service we possibly can for our customers. Jim Irwin President, Aircraft Spruce Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:58 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations From: "Don" Please Michael, do not take this as being disrespectful or as an insult to your intelligence. But I feel that the record must be corrected here. I am hopefully not coming off as arrogant but will only list the facts here. First off Airflow Performance sells a complete Fuel Injection kit for installation on RV aircraft. In that kit the purge valve and flow divider come as an assembly; flow tested pressure tested, lock wired and oil flushed. We have process sheets that control the assembly process, and the lock wire sign off is part of that sheet. I believe if you look back on your build record for the RV-6A there are pictures of the purge valve flow divider assembly bolted to the engine. It clearly shows the assembly lock wired. There are instances that customers want to install our purge valve on other fuel-injected installation not using Airflow Performance equipment; this is the customers choice. In this case the customer is responsible for fabricating their own brackets and mounting hardware. The purge valve has mounting holes for brackets on the housing, there is a tag, which says LOCK WIRE THIS SCREW, on the purge valve stop screw warning to lock wire the screw after assembly and the installation, and operation manual has the following warnings in it: In the manual supplied with the purge valve: . .Lock wire all hard ware. Make sure to lock wire the stop screw. In the Appendix in the manual: WARNING Failure to lock wire the stop screw holding the purge valve in the housing, will result in immediate engine stoppage if the screw backs out. Again here, as stated in the Installation and Service Manual Rev.E: OPERATION OF THE INSTALLED SYSTEM 2-2. There are many factors affecting satisfactory fuel injection operation in service, which cannot be addressed regarding the design of the fuel controller alone. A recognition of these requirements regarding fuel tanks, fuel lines, fuel pumps, fuel pressure requirements, controls, air induction inlet, intake manifold design, and the operation and maneuvers the aircraft will be subjected to, must be evaluated if the fuel injection system is to function successfully in the airplane. It is up to the owner/installer to use proper and approved aircraft installation and fabrication techniques. Airflow Performance recommends using AC-4313-2B as a guide for approved methods and techniques for installing components on aircraft installations. I dont know what else we can do to insure that proper installation and maintenance techniques are used. You are, after all, building an Experimental Aircraft there is no type certificate, which controls the components installed on the aircraft. Thats the beauty of this category. But of course this puts more responsibility on the builder. Michael, you stated: I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with the screws safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow divider and fuel servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but not the purge valve. Leaving this up to the installer can lead to a failure to do so. With many things on an airplane, this cant be avoided. But with this purge valve, I think it can be done simply. How many accidents do we need before it changes from dumb user error, to design change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can be avoided, does not sound like good practice. Well, to answer the first part of your statement, the assembly in the kit is lock wired. To the second part of the statement, I believe we have to the best of our ability informed the customer of the need to lock wire the stop screw. And in some of the instances when the factory installed lock wire was removed for one reason or another it was not reinstalled. Hopefully the person removing this lock wire had enough presence of mind to re-lock wire parts that he/she disassembles and reassembled. Its not any different than lock wiring oil filters, oil drain plugs, propeller bolts, making sure the spark plugs are torqued and your seat belts and harness are on when you take off. Its all about the details. But, if you take the analogy further, maybe the experimental kit market should not sell kits that have to be assembled. Is the RV-nose gear in need of design change, if it would fail if you hit a pothole? Should the control stick in an aircraft be welded in instead of bolted in the event the bolt would fall out or is not installed? (This has happened). Should there be cotter pins on the nut that holds the throttle lever on the fuel injector throttle shaft or should there be a lock nut? The cotter pin could not be installed or the lock nut could have no running torque. The debate goes on and on. I guess what Im saying here is yes we the manufactures are responsible to have sound engineering behind their products. Since this is an experimental category, you as the builder have the right to assemble, modify or do whatever. Where I have a problem is when people disregard the proven track record of a product, with millions of flight hours accumulated, to say that the design is defective or needs to have a design change because the original design intent has not been met or the device has been used, abused or incorrect maintenance practices have been used. All of us operating experimental aircraft, myself included have the responsibility to insure to the best of our ability that our aircraft are safe to fly. Doing your own maintenance, modifications or for that matter building your own flying machine is highly rewarding and an accomplishment not taken lightly. Lets face it. Flying is dangerous, but we need to evaluate the risks and be responsible to operate the aircraft in a safe, legal manner. This was the basis of the experimental movement when I got involved back in the 1960s. Experimental aircraft give us a lot of freedom; one way to be able to exercise that freedom is to be responsible. I need to get off the soapbox. Yes Dan we are having Fuel Injection 101 classes at our facility the 2007 dates are March 2-4 and November 2-4. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93275#93275 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:07 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed I've added a link to your site and to your RVator index on my web site http://brian76.mystarband.net/MailLists.htm brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: RVAtor Article Needed Using the handy, dandy RVator index (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2006/rvator_index.html), you want the 4th Issue of 2003, page 10. I've got it and would be glad to make a copy or fax it to you. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93045#93045 -- 9:58 PM -- 4:48 PM ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:36 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RE: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses > were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain > orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all > or too much light and therefore vision. Terry: I think it's not so much blocking light in general as creating blind spots. The sunglasses and visors we were issued in the Canadian air force were not polarized, and I was told that was the reason. But I've used polarized sunglasses while flying RVs and other civilian airplanes and haven't found it to be a problem. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:59 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: RV-List: ground GPS Bought the wife a Garmin c330 Street Pilot at, get this...Wal-Mart on-line...for Christmas. She travels a lot doing business & both the mapbook & Mapquest were hard to use. With the c330 she enters the address and it "talks" her right to it. It's in color, no problem reading it in brightest sunlight with the moon roof open, but she uses the audio directions as they are direct & clear. Have had it count down to within 7 feet of an intersection turn. It "talks" to you as you approach an indicated turn. Miss a turn, that OK it "re-calculating" and directs you from there. Has just about everything but altitude (not sure it's not in there too) as the Garmin's (2) in the HRII. $329.00 total (OTD) with 3 day shipping. KABONG Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:10 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery The damage threshold is similar to what you have with your typical agm lead-acid (like the Odyssey 680.) You leave the master on for a couple of days and you will likely ruin the battery. The cost of making such a mistake is higher. I would strongly suggest a door switch and a warning buzzer. :-) Bill Dube' > > >>> The battery can be damaged by running it completely flat (like >> > leaving the master on) and holding the battery below 8 volts for a > long time. It can also be damaged by charging it over 15.0 volts. It > will likely still function after such abuse, but it won't be nearly > as good as it was originally. If you don't abuse it, it should last > you for many years.<< > > To me, some of these exotic batteries are just too fragile to our > bungling ways to make it worth the cost, no matter how great the > performance. It's like we've learned in model aviation. A NiCD > battery is awfully hard to beat for day to day usage and mistreatment, > even if they do weigh a tad more. They cost far less, as well. Those > of us who fly models on a lean budget are more likely to stay away > from Li-poly, the A123 Systems M1, and such. We just can't see > leaving the safety of something that works well to jump into the fire > (sometimes literally with Li-poly batteries) to try the exotics. Of > course, it would be different, if we were flying electrics. For those > guys, every ounce of weight saved and amp of capacity gained is worth > the cost. :-) > > Just recently, my RV's Concorde RG 25XC battery had to take the > punishment he just described. The voltage regulator quit during some > night landings. The battery got down to about 8V before I caught it. > Some things kinda quit working well, about that time. :-( Shame on > me for not catching it; but, I was having fun with the night > landings. After I replaced the voltage regulator, and recharged the > battery some, the recharge during the next flight pushed 16V until it > stabilized a few minutes into the flight. I can't tell any difference > in the battery's performance. It still spins the engine crisply on > these cold mornings. > > Of course, none of us ever leave the master on. Do we? :-( > > I'll stick with the proven stuff, for now. If some of you Listers try > this offering, please report your findings to us poor folks. It sems > to me, there will have to be some kind of device installed with the > battery to prevent low voltage, over voltage, and that forgetful mind > that leaves on the master. Otherwise, a promising product could get a > bad reputation before it gets a fair shake out. Am I wrong on this? > > Jim Sears in KY > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:03 PM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Mr. Don Rivera, Both you and I probably agree that Air Flow Performance builds probably one of the best ( if not THE best ) Fuel Injection Systems on the experimental market today. Personally, I actually do like the idea of a manually controlled Purge Valve for its various reasons. Shutting off an engine via the Purge Valve or via Mixture cutoff is like six of one, half a dozen of another as far as I am concerned. But not everyone may think this way. Well, to each experimenter his/her own, but I sure do think your system is very versatile. That said, I'd like to add that I am not even a customer of AFP just yet, nor do I have a financial or any other interest in AFP for sharing my thoughts on my understanding of the system. However I would not mind getting 50% off when the time cometh to place an order! Please keep this in mind... Sincerely, Konrad Do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:46 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery > > Just recently, my RV's Concorde RG 25XC battery had to take the > punishment he just described. The voltage regulator quit during some > night landings. The battery got down to about 8V before I caught it. > Some things kinda quit working well, about that time. :-( Shame on > me for not catching it; but, I was having fun with the night > landings. After I replaced the voltage regulator, and recharged the > battery some, the recharge during the next flight pushed 16V until it > stabilized a few minutes into the flight. I can't tell any difference > in the battery's performance. It still spins the engine crisply on > these cold mornings. This new battery would withstand this brief abuse with the same result. It would still work OK if you didn't do these nasty things to it for very long. It would not be bothered at all by running it down to 8 volts. That would cause no damage whatsoever. The A123 Systems cells are quite a bit more robust than other Li-Ion cells. They can really "take a punch" unlike the typical Li-Polymer or the Cobalt cells that will go belly-up with even a hint of over-voltage or under-voltage. I wouldn't be putting these things out on the market if they couldn't take a lickn'. :-) Bill Dube' ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:52 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important customer service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced for my Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to them and now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls returned. JPI will not provide me another name or number to get results. Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring Tim Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > > We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one that was > critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted some > very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in dealing with > Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and your > support. > > These comments were in response to a former customer's posting regarding a > custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from several years > ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership with > Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and panel work > are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel specialists > and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to > apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received from > our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had with the > tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly > resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we > apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing the > best service we possibly can for our customers. > > Jim Irwin > President, Aircraft Spruce > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:16 PM PST US From: "John Fasching" Subject: RV-List: RvAtor Article Needed Thanks for all the help folks. I now have a hard copy of Ken Scott's article from the 6th issue of 2004 wherein he describes how to get the undrilled replacement fuel tanks drilled so the holes match up with the original ones in the spar. When I saw the little drawing of his "device" I recall reading it and then remembered even making a hand drawn copy of the device, but cannot recall where it was put ! Its hell to get old ! Thanks again. John ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:35 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Just as a data point, I can confirm that my FM-300 is sitting in its box with the safety wires all in place. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:43 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Please Michael, do not take this as being disrespectful or as an insult to your intelligence. But I feel that the record must be corrected here. I am hopefully not coming off as arrogant but will only list the facts here. First off Airflow Performance sells a complete Fuel Injection kit for installation on RV aircraft. In that kit the purge valve and flow divider come as an assembly; flow tested pressure tested, lock wired and oil flushed. We have process sheets that control the assembly process, and the lock wire sign off is part of that sheet. I believe if you look back on your build record for the RV-6A there are pictures of the purge valve flow divider assembly bolted to the engine. It clearly shows the assembly lock wired. There are instances that customers want to install our purge valve on other fuel-injected installation not using Airflow Performance equipment; this is the customers choice. In this case the customer is responsible for fabricating their ow! n brackets and mounting hardware. The purge valve has mounting holes for brackets on the housing, there is a tag, which says LOCK WIRE THIS SCREW, on the purge valve stop screw warning to lock wire the screw after assembly and the installation, and operation manual has the following warnings in it: In the manual supplied with the purge valve: . .Lock wire all hard ware. Make sure to lock wire the stop screw. In the Appendix in the manual: WARNING Failure to lock wire the stop screw holding the purge valve in the housing, will result in immediate engine stoppage if the screw backs out. Again here, as stated in the Installation and Service Manual Rev.E: OPERATION OF THE INSTALLED SYSTEM 2-2. There are many factors affecting satisfactory fuel injection operation in service, which cannot be addressed regarding the design of the fuel controller alone. A recognition of these requirements regarding fuel tanks, fuel lines, fuel pumps, fuel pressure requirements, controls, air induction inlet, intake manifold design, and the operation and maneuvers the aircraft will be subjected to, must be evaluated if the fuel injection system is to function successfully in the airplane. It is up to the owner/installer to use proper and approved aircraft installation and fabrication techniques. Airflow Performance recommends using AC-4313-2B as a guide for approved methods and techniques for installing components on aircraft installations. I dont know what else we can do to insure that proper installation and maintenance techniques are used. You are, after all, building an Experimental Aircraft there is no type certificate, which controls the components installed on the aircraft. Thats the beauty of this category. But of course this puts more responsibility on the builder. Michael, you stated: I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with the screws safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow divider and fuel servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but not the purge valve. Leaving this up to the installer can lead to a failure to do so. With many things on an airplane, this cant be avoided. But with this purge valve, I think it can be done simply. How many accidents do we need before it changes from dumb user error, to design change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can be avoided, does not sound like good practice. Well, to answer the first part of your statement, the assembly in the kit is lock wired. To the second part of the statement, I believe we have to the best of our ability informed the customer of the need to lock wire the stop screw. And in some of the instances when the factory installed lock wire was removed for one reason or another it was not reinstalled. Hopefully the person removing this lock wire had enough presence of mind to re-lock wire parts that he/she disassembles and reassembled. Its not any different than lock wiring oil filters, oil drain plugs, propeller bolts, making sure the spark plugs are torqued and your seat belts and harness are on when you take off. Its all about the details. But, if you take the analogy further, maybe the experimental kit market should not sell kits that have to be assembled. Is the RV-nose gear in need of design change, if it would fail if you hit a pothole? Should the control stick in an aircraft be welded in instead of bolted in the event the bolt would fall out or is not installed? (This has happened). Should there be cotter pins on the nut that holds the throttle lever on the fuel injector throttle shaft or should there be a lock nut? The cotter pin could not be installed or the lock nut could have no running torque. The debate goes on and on. I guess what Im saying here is yes we the manufactures are responsible to have sound engineering behind their products. Since this is an experimental category, you as the builder have the right to assemble, modify or do whatever. Where I have a problem is when people disregard the proven track record of a product, with millions of flight hours accumulated, to say that the ! design is defective or needs to have a design change because the original design intent has not been met or the device has been used, abused or incorrect maintenance practices have been used. All of us operating experimental aircraft, myself included have the responsibility to insure to the best of our ability that our aircraft are safe to fly. Doing your own maintenance, modifications or for that matter building your own flying machine is highly rewarding and an accomplishment not taken lightly. Lets face it. Flying is dangerous, but we need to evaluate the risks and be responsible to operate the aircraft in a safe, legal manner. This was the basis of the experimental movement when I got involved back in the 1960s. Experimental aircraft give us a lot of freedom; one way to be able to exercise that freedom is to be responsible. I need to get off the soapbox. Yes Dan we are having Fuel Injection 101 classes at our facility the 2007 dates are March 2-4 and November 2-4. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93275#93275 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:24 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they wish to install. I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to tell him about your problem. If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then clearly the company is in major trouble. If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't delivered. But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, we're really screwing up." Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied customers. They always do something about it. -J On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: > > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important > customer > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced > for my > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to > them and > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls > returned. JPI > will not provide me another name or number to get results. > > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring > Tim > Do Not Archive > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one >> that was >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted >> some >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in >> dealing with >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and >> your >> support. >> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting >> regarding a >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from >> several years >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership >> with >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and >> panel work >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel >> specialists >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received >> from >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had >> with the >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing >> the >> best service we possibly can for our customers. >> >> Jim Irwin >> President, Aircraft Spruce >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:20 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Hello Jim, I've had it on my list of things to do for about 2 years to write to you about the consistently poor customer service I have encountered at Aircraft Spruce. Details of my last couple encounters are posted on my "vendors" page: http://brian76.mystarband.net/vendors.htm/#ACS I'm glad that you cared enough about your customer service to respond to previous statements from me and numerous others on this list about problems with Aircraft Spruce's customer service, and I hope you will take steps to address those issues internally. If I have any more customer service problems at ACS, I will be sure to contact you immediately with details. ACS would be a great source if not for the attitude problems some of us have encountered. Brian Meyette RV-7A Cornish, NH -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:15 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one that was critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted some very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in dealing with Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and your support. These comments were in response to a former customer's posting regarding a custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from several years ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership with Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and panel work are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel specialists and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received from our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had with the tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing the best service we possibly can for our customers. Jim Irwin President, Aircraft Spruce Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 -- 4:48 PM -- 4:48 PM ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they wish to install. I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to tell him about your problem. If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then clearly the company is in major trouble. If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't delivered. But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, we're really screwing up." Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied customers. They always do something about it. -J On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: > > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important > customer > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced > for my > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to > them and > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls > returned. JPI > will not provide me another name or number to get results. > > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring > Tim > Do Not Archive > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one >> that was >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted >> some >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in >> dealing with >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and >> your >> support. >> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting >> regarding a >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from >> several years >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership >> with >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and >> panel work >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel >> specialists >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received >> from >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had >> with the >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing >> the >> best service we possibly can for our customers. >> >> Jim Irwin >> President, Aircraft Spruce >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:09 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name change. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they wish to install. I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to tell him about your problem. If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then clearly the company is in major trouble. If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't delivered. But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, we're really screwing up." Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied customers. They always do something about it. -J On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: > > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important > customer > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced > for my > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to > them and > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls > returned. JPI > will not provide me another name or number to get results. > > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring > Tim > Do Not Archive > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one >> that was >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted >> some >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in >> dealing with >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and >> your >> support. >> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting >> regarding a >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from >> several years >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership >> with >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and >> panel work >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel >> specialists >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received >> from >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had >> with the >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing >> the >> best service we possibly can for our customers. >> >> Jim Irwin >> President, Aircraft Spruce >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:24 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Who is Matt? Name change for what? Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:29 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name change. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder > (Michael > Sausen) > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > > > Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them > and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am > seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming > with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell > the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends > know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're > all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are > building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they > wish to install. > > I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. > > If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales > manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on > the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. > > Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press > and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and > he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. > > As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the > company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, > phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to > tell him about your problem. > > If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider > doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and > company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then > clearly the company is in major trouble. > > If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give > them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind > of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product > to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the > same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual > flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be > able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- > then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the > guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. > You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't > delivered. > > But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on > the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND > upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, > we're really screwing up." > > Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied > customers. They always do something about it. > > -J > > On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: > > > > > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important > > customer > > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced > > for my > > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to > > them and > > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls > > returned. JPI > > will not provide me another name or number to get results. > > > > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring > > Tim > > Do Not Archive > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > >> > >> > >> > >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one > >> that was > >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted > >> some > >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in > >> dealing with > >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and > >> your > >> support. > >> > >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting > >> regarding a > >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from > >> several years > >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership > >> with > >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and > >> panel work > >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel > >> specialists > >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to > >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received > >> from > >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had > >> with the > >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly > >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we > >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing > >> the > >> best service we possibly can for our customers. > >> > >> Jim Irwin > >> President, Aircraft Spruce > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Read this topic online here: > >> > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:48 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Fuel Injection Well, I do take exception to the comment about Bosch K-jet injection. Hot starts were not an issue with them really as used on the BMWs, VWs and Mercedes. But they are a full flow system returning about 10-20 gallons an hour back to the tank. This is true of all Bosch injection up through at least '97 when I stopped working on them. The big problem with them all was starting with the throttle open. They weren't designed for this and they would lean out, backfire and blow the rubber induction boots off and or damage the airflow plates. Typically most injection systems, including turbines use some type of pressurization and dump strategy, and many of them use a return system to not only cool for vapor lock, but the extra fuel also cools many components like the in tank pickup pre-pumps. W ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:09 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update If you climb into the wayback machine, you'll find that 8 or so years ago (from memory), JPI threatened to sue Matronics for copyright (or was it trademark?) infringement over a product name. Both products were fuel totalizers for the aviation market. In the end, I don't think the suit went to trial, but Matronics did end up changing the name of its product. At the time, it appeared that a larger company (JPI) was using its deeper pockets and the threat of legal action to intimidate a smaller competitor (Matronics). Matronics is owned by a guy named Matt Dralle, who is also the owner and system administrator for this and a couple of other free forums for various flavors of experimental aviation... Search for JPI in the archives and you'll find plenty of info... KB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bryan" Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > Who is Matt? Name change for what? > > Do Not Archive > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:29 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name >> change. >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder >> (Michael >> Sausen) >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> >> >> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them >> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am >> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming >> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell >> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends >> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're >> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are >> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they >> wish to install. >> >> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. >> >> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales >> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on >> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. >> >> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press >> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and >> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. >> >> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the >> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, >> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to >> tell him about your problem. >> >> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider >> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and >> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then >> clearly the company is in major trouble. >> >> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give >> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind >> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product >> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the >> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual >> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be >> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- >> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the >> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. >> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't >> delivered. >> >> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on >> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND >> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, >> we're really screwing up." >> >> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied >> customers. They always do something about it. >> >> -J >> >> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: >> >> > >> > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important >> > customer >> > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced >> > for my >> > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to >> > them and >> > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls >> > returned. JPI >> > will not provide me another name or number to get results. >> > >> > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring >> > Tim >> > Do Not Archive >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM >> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one >> >> that was >> >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted >> >> some >> >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in >> >> dealing with >> >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and >> >> your >> >> support. >> >> >> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting >> >> regarding a >> >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from >> >> several years >> >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership >> >> with >> >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and >> >> panel work >> >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel >> >> specialists >> >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to >> >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received >> >> from >> >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had >> >> with the >> >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly >> >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we >> >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing >> >> the >> >> best service we possibly can for our customers. >> >> >> >> Jim Irwin >> >> President, Aircraft Spruce >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:06 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update On 6 Feb 2007, at 17:58, Tim Bryan wrote: > > Who is Matt? Name change for what? Matt Dralle provides the servers that run the Aeroelectric-List, RV- List, etc. Way back in early 1999 JPI sued Matt for no good reason. Matt's post describing the problem can be found in the RV-List archives. I repeat it here to save you the trouble: From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001) Subject: PLEASE READ - I Need Your Help... Dear Listers, I received the letter below from J.P. Instruments' attorneys yesterday. J.P. Instruments (JPI) manufactures aircraft engine monitoring instruments and they are based out of Huntington Beach, California. In the letter, JPI alleges that because Matronics (my company and sponsor of these email lists) uses the name "FUEL SCAN" on our product, Matronics is infringing on JPI's registered trademark of "SCANNER". (The actual name of the Matronics product is "FUELSCAN" not "FUEL SCAN" as indicated.) They are requesting that Matronics discontinue the use of the name "FUEL SCAN" by February 19, 1999 or they will "resort to legal remedies." As you can imagine, this is very upsetting information. Changing the name of the FuelScan now will cost thousands of dollars by having to redo product literature, brochures, documentation, silk screening and a host of other items that include the name. Many of these items have been reproduced in large quantities to make the reproduction costs more affordable. All of this would have to be discarded and reproduced if Matronics is forced to comply. Perhaps even more significant, however, is the fact that after 4 years on the market, the Matronics FuelScan is just now becoming more widely known as a fine and reliable product. Changing the FuelScan's name at this critical time in the product's life would be a devastating blow to both the long term successfulness of the FuelScan as well as to financial stability of Matronics. Complying with JPI's request could cause Matronics to cease to exist as we now know it and might very well jeopardize the many other services Matronics provides to the Aviation community such as these email Lists and web site. With that all being said, I'm not sure what to do at this point. There is no way that I can afford to fight JPI over this. I definitely don't want to just roll over and give them their way, either. It just doesn't seem quite fair that they could put me out of business because, in their estimation, "my product might be confused with their's". If there is anyone out there that could offer some legal advise or consultation in these matters, I would really appreciate it. It would also seem, that with nearly 1900 members on the combined four email Lists, we would represent a rather strong voice. If anyone has any ideas on how to organize that strength to help resolve this matter, I would love to hear it. I would like to thank everyone here in advance for all of your support over the years. It's in times like these that it becomes very apparent what a truly great group of people these Lists represent. I thank you. Matt Dralle Matronics RV, Rocket, Kolb & Zenith List Admin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Reprint of FACSIMILE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Price, Gess & Ubell Attorneys at Law 2100 S.E. Main Street, Suite 250 Irvine, California 92614-6238 February 5, 1999 Joseph W. Price Albin H. Gess Franklin D. Ubell Doyle B. Johnson Michael J. Moffatt Gordon E. Gray III Bradley D. Blanche A Professional Corporation Telephone: (949) 261-8433 Facsimile: (949) 261-9072 Facsimile: (949) 261-1726 e-mail: pgu(at)pgulaw.com VIA FACSIMILE ------------- President Matronics, Inc. P.O. Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551 Re: J.P. Instruments v. Matronics, Inc. Our Ref: JPI1-700a Dear Sir or Madam: Enclosed for your review is the federal trademark registration for "SCANNER" owned by J.P. Instruments. We have recently discovered your use of the mark "FUEL SCAN" for after-market aircraft parts. The use of FUEL SCAN is likely to cause confusion with our client's trademark SCANNER and therefore infringes our client's trademark. We request that you respect our client's intellectual property rights and stop using the FUEL SCAN mark. If you do not confirm that you have stopped using the FUEL SCAN mark by February 19, 1999, our client will resort to its legal remedies. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Very truly yours, PRICE, GESS & UBELL [signature] Gordon E. Gray GEG:xox Enclosure ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Reprint of Trademark Enclosure ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Int. Cl.: 9 Prior U.S. Cl.: 26 United States Patent and Trademark Office Reg. No 1,943,281 Registered Dec. 26, 1995 TRADEMARK PRINCIPAL REGISTER SCANNER J.P. INSTRUMENTS (CALIFORNIA CORPORATION) 1540-K EAST EDINGER SANTA ANA, CA 92705 FOR: ENGINE TEMPERATURE INDICATORS, IN CLASS 9 (U.S. CL. 26) FIRST USE 6-0-1884; IN COMMERCE 6-0-1984. SEC. 2(F). SER. NO. 73-742,104, FILED 7-25-1988 KATHRYN ERSKINE, EXAMINING ATTORNEY ================ I will never, ever purchase a product from JPI. Their approach to downloading data from their engine monitors shows that their antipathy to their customers continues. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:52 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: JPI was Aircraft Spruce update Kevin and Kyle, I didn't realize the Matt you were referencing and Matt D. were one in the same. It is unfortunate once again our country is so sue happy. Thanks for the info, and one more reason to put a strike against JPI. Too bad they acquired Vision Microsytems. Tim and Do Not Archive incase it isn't already in here. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Boatright > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:19 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > If you climb into the wayback machine, you'll find that 8 or so years ago > (from memory), JPI threatened to sue Matronics for copyright (or was it > trademark?) infringement over a product name. Both products were fuel > totalizers for the aviation market. In the end, I don't think the suit > went > to trial, but Matronics did end up changing the name of its product. > > At the time, it appeared that a larger company (JPI) was using its deeper > pockets and the threat of legal action to intimidate a smaller competitor > (Matronics). Matronics is owned by a guy named Matt Dralle, who is also > the > owner and system administrator for this and a couple of other free forums > for various flavors of experimental aviation... > > Search for JPI in the archives and you'll find plenty of info... > > KB > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Bryan" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:58 PM > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > > > > Who is Matt? Name change for what? > > > > Do Not Archive > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:29 PM > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > >> > >> > >> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name > >> change. > >> > >> Bruce > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder > >> (Michael > >> Sausen) > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to > them > >> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am > >> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming > >> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > >> > >> > >> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell > >> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends > >> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're > >> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are > >> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they > >> wish to install. > >> > >> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. > >> > >> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales > >> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on > >> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. > >> > >> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press > >> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and > >> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. > >> > >> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the > >> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, > >> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to > >> tell him about your problem. > >> > >> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider > >> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and > >> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then > >> clearly the company is in major trouble. > >> > >> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give > >> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind > >> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product > >> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the > >> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual > >> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be > >> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- > >> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the > >> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. > >> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't > >> delivered. > >> > >> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on > >> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND > >> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, > >> we're really screwing up." > >> > >> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied > >> customers. They always do something about it. > >> > >> -J > >> > >> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important > >> > customer > >> > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced > >> > for my > >> > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to > >> > them and > >> > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls > >> > returned. JPI > >> > will not provide me another name or number to get results. > >> > > >> > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring > >> > Tim > >> > Do Not Archive > >> > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > >> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info > >> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM > >> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one > >> >> that was > >> >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted > >> >> some > >> >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in > >> >> dealing with > >> >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and > >> >> your > >> >> support. > >> >> > >> >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting > >> >> regarding a > >> >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from > >> >> several years > >> >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership > >> >> with > >> >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and > >> >> panel work > >> >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel > >> >> specialists > >> >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to > >> >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received > >> >> from > >> >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had > >> >> with the > >> >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to > quickly > >> >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we > >> >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing > >> >> the > >> >> best service we possibly can for our customers. > >> >> > >> >> Jim Irwin > >> >> President, Aircraft Spruce > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Read this topic online here: > >> >> > >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:12 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M From: "Bob Collins" An update on the story following this morning's hearing can be found here (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/eaa_court_motion_result.html). -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93345#93345 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:36 PM PST US From: Dave B Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars Occasionally you'll find an ique 3600A on EBAY, that's the aviation version of the 3600 and has the aviation database and better display. I use mine in the car and the airplane and I love it. Dave B Dave Nellis wrote: > > I purchased a Garmin Ique 3600 from Ebay. This unit > is a GPS and a PDA. It is a great little unit. You > can program what areas you want to cover. I live in > Michigan and have all of Michigan and Ohio in the > database. A 1gig memory card will give enough storage > for about half the country. It uses Palm OS so there > are a lot of other programs available as well. > > If you go this route, make sure you are buying a unit > that includes the car kit accessories. > > I have taken this unit up in airplane and it cannot > keep up with straight line travel as it is designed to > follow roads. Kind of comical watching it trying to > establish routes on roads while flying, but I would > not use this unit for AIRNAV. > > Dave Nellis > N410DN (Res.) > RV7A Slider > > --- Tedd McHenry wrote: > > >> >> >> Does anyone here have experience with portable GPS >> units for cars, such as the >> Garmin Nuvi 660? I used a built-in system in a >> rental car and was quite >> impressed, but I don't know how close the portable >> systems are to what I used. >> Recommendations? >> >> Tedd McHenry >> Surrey, BC, Canada >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >> >> browse >> Subscriptions page, >> FAQ, >> >> Web Forums! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. > > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:52 PM PST US From: "Steven DiNieri" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Thats very interesting. In monitoring the list for the last couple years I've never caught wind of a payoff... I guess thats good for matt, but I've been prejudiced against jpi for heavy handed tactics, and if in fact they paid well for they're concerns, I need to reevaluate my defense of the "persecuted"....steve 40205 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:29 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name change. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder > (Michael > Sausen) > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > > > Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list to them > and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am > seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest shortcoming > with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > > > Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell > the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends > know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're > all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are > building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they > wish to install. > > I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of hurry. > > If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales > manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on > the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. > > Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press > and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and > he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. > > As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the > company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, > phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to > tell him about your problem. > > If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider > doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and > company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then > clearly the company is in major trouble. > > If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give > them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind > of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product > to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the > same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual > flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be > able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- > then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the > guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. > You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't > delivered. > > But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on > the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND > upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, > we're really screwing up." > > Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied > customers. They always do something about it. > > -J > > On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: > > > > > Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important > > customer > > service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced > > for my > > Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to > > them and > > now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls > > returned. JPI > > will not provide me another name or number to get results. > > > > Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring > > Tim > > Do Not Archive > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update > >> > >> > >> > >> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one > >> that was > >> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted > >> some > >> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in > >> dealing with > >> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and > >> your > >> support. > >> > >> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting > >> regarding a > >> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from > >> several years > >> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership > >> with > >> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and > >> panel work > >> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel > >> specialists > >> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to > >> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received > >> from > >> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had > >> with the > >> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to quickly > >> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we > >> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing > >> the > >> best service we possibly can for our customers. > >> > >> Jim Irwin > >> President, Aircraft Spruce > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Read this topic online here: > >> > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -- ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:54 PM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update The JPI episode has happened already 8 years ago to the day !?!?!? (Feb. 6, 1999) Time sure fly's by ..... do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Horton To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:37 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update On 6 Feb 2007, at 17:58, Tim Bryan wrote: > > Who is Matt? Name change for what? Matt Dralle provides the servers that run the Aeroelectric-List, RV- List, etc. Way back in early 1999 JPI sued Matt for no good reason. Matt's post describing the problem can be found in the RV-List archives. I repeat it here to save you the trouble: From: dralle(at)matronics.com (Matt Dralle 925-606-1001) Date: Feb 06, 1999 Subject: PLEASE READ - I Need Your Help... Dear Listers, I received the letter below from J.P. Instruments' attorneys yesterday. J.P. Instruments (JPI) manufactures aircraft engine monitoring instruments and they are based out of Huntington Beach, California. In the letter, JPI alleges that because Matronics (my company and sponsor of these email lists) uses the name "FUEL SCAN" on our product, Matronics is infringing on JPI's registered trademark of "SCANNER". (The actual name of the Matronics product is "FUELSCAN" not "FUEL SCAN" as indicated.) They are requesting that Matronics discontinue the use of the name "FUEL SCAN" by February 19, 1999 or they will "resort to legal remedies." As you can imagine, this is very upsetting information. Changing the name of the FuelScan now will cost thousands of dollars by having to redo product literature, brochures, documentation, silk screening and a host of other items that include the name. Many of these items have been reproduced in large quantities to make the reproduction costs more affordable. All of this would have to be discarded and reproduced if Matronics is forced to comply. Perhaps even more significant, however, is the fact that after 4 years on the market, the Matronics FuelScan is just now becoming more widely known as a fine and reliable product. Changing the FuelScan's name at this critical time in the product's life would be a devastating blow to both the long term successfulness of the FuelScan as well as to financial stability of Matronics. Complying with JPI's request could cause Matronics to cease to exist as we now know it and might very well jeopardize the many other services Matronics provides to the Aviation community such as these email Lists and web site. With that all being said, I'm not sure what to do at this point. There is no way that I can afford to fight JPI over this. I definitely don't want to just roll over and give them their way, either. It just doesn't seem quite fair that they could put me out of business because, in their estimation, "my product might be confused with their's". If there is anyone out there that could offer some legal advise or consultation in these matters, I would really appreciate it. It would also seem, that with nearly 1900 members on the combined four email Lists, we would represent a rather strong voice. If anyone has any ideas on how to organize that strength to help resolve this matter, I would love to hear it. I would like to thank everyone here in advance for all of your support over the years. It's in times like these that it becomes very apparent what a truly great group of people these Lists represent. I thank you. Matt Dralle Matronics RV, Rocket, Kolb & Zenith List Admin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Reprint of FACSIMILE ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Price, Gess & Ubell Attorneys at Law 2100 S.E. Main Street, Suite 250 Irvine, California 92614-6238 February 5, 1999 Joseph W. Price Albin H. Gess Franklin D. Ubell Doyle B. Johnson Michael J. Moffatt Gordon E. Gray III Bradley D. Blanche A Professional Corporation Telephone: (949) 261-8433 Facsimile: (949) 261-9072 Facsimile: (949) 261-1726 e-mail: pgu(at)pgulaw.com VIA FACSIMILE ------------- President Matronics, Inc. P.O. Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551 Re: J.P. Instruments v. Matronics, Inc. Our Ref: JPI1-700a Dear Sir or Madam: Enclosed for your review is the federal trademark registration for "SCANNER" owned by J.P. Instruments. We have recently discovered your use of the mark "FUEL SCAN" for after-market aircraft parts. The use of FUEL SCAN is likely to cause confusion with our client's trademark SCANNER and therefore infringes our client's trademark. We request that you respect our client's intellectual property rights and stop using the FUEL SCAN mark. If you do not confirm that you have stopped using the FUEL SCAN mark by February 19, 1999, our client will resort to its legal remedies. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Very truly yours, PRICE, GESS & UBELL [signature] Gordon E. Gray GEG:xox Enclosure ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Reprint of Trademark Enclosure ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Int. Cl.: 9 Prior U.S. Cl.: 26 United States Patent and Trademark Office Reg. No 1,943,281 Registered Dec. 26, 1995 TRADEMARK PRINCIPAL REGISTER SCANNER J.P. INSTRUMENTS (CALIFORNIA CORPORATION) 1540-K EAST EDINGER SANTA ANA, CA 92705 FOR: ENGINE TEMPERATURE INDICATORS, IN CLASS 9 (U.S. CL. 26) FIRST USE 6-0-1884; IN COMMERCE 6-0-1984. SEC. 2(F). SER. NO. 73-742,104, FILED 7-25-1988 KATHRYN ERSKINE, EXAMINING ATTORNEY ================ I will never, ever purchase a product from JPI. Their approach to downloading data from their engine monitors shows that their antipathy to their customers continues. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:07 PM PST US From: Paul Trotter Subject: RV-List: Aircraft Spruce Experience With the various discussions regarding ACS recently, I thought I would add a little story about a recent experience I had with them. First I want to say that I like ACS, as they have just about everything, and I am generally pleased with their service. My orders have always been correct and shipped promptly. That is until the last one. About 3 weeks ago I placed an order for several items, about $1000 worth, that included a Tru-Trak T&B indicator. When I placed the order, the ACS system presented me with several shipping choices, with estimated cost. I chose one that made sense and placed the order. Imagine my surprise, when I received the invoice, and the shipping cost was 3 times what they estimated. While I realize that these were just estimates, I expect them to be reasonably close, like maybe within 10-20%, not 3 times as much. To their credit, they did refund the amount above what they estimated, but it took 3 phone calls to customer service and about an hour of my time. Just as a test, I reran the order today up to the point where they give shipping choices and I got the same estimates. However, more interesting was that the Tru-Trak T&B indicator that I received did not come in Tru-Trak packaging. It looked like it was a return from a previous customer. So during one of my phone calls, I asked them to replace it. No problem. They issued a UPS pickup for the unit and sent me another one. The new one was also a return. I know this because in the same box was a Tru-Trak servo and some installation intructions that the original purchaser downloaded from Tru-Trak's website. Someone had returned the servo and the T&B and ACS missed the fact that they were in the same box, labeled the box as a T&B and sent it out to me. I haven't decided what to do about this yet, as I don't really want to waste my time calling them again, although I really should return the servo which I have no need for anyway. Maybe I'll get around to it someday. On the other hand if Jim Irwin is reading these posts and wants to contact me to get his servo back, I'll gladly do so. Of course I'll also return the T&B and get one from Stein where I should have ordered it in the first place. Or maybe someone wants a good deal on a servo:-) I'll still buy from ACS as I expect that this was just one of those random glitches, but I'll probably think twice before ordering things like this from them again. Paul Trotter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.