---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/07/07: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:27 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Spruce update (Kevin Horton) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations (kahuna) 3. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Chuck Jensen) 4. 06:48 AM - API FI-101 Class (was: I've sworn off purge valve installations) (Dwight Frye) 5. 07:38 AM - Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations () 6. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 7. 09:45 AM - AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring (Charles Brame) 8. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Richard Dudley) 9. 10:00 AM - Re: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring (Ralph E. Capen) 10. 10:38 AM - Re: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring (Terry Watson) 11. 11:46 AM - Re: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring (Phil Birkelbach) 12. 12:48 PM - Re: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 13. 01:15 PM - AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring (James H Nelson) 14. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Tracy Crook) 15. 02:22 PM - Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars (PHILLIP BARKER) 16. 03:46 PM - RV-4 Tail Kit Advise (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 17. 05:15 PM - Fuel Injection System (Robert Savage) 18. 05:15 PM - Re: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise (JOHN STARN) 19. 05:17 PM - Re: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Ken Arnold) 20. 05:36 PM - Re: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Tim Olson) 21. 05:44 PM - RV7A Transition Training (Chuck & Deanna Schieffer) 22. 05:48 PM - Re: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise (Doug Weiler) 23. 05:51 PM - Re: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Larry James) 24. 06:14 PM - Re: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars (Walter Tondu) 25. 06:14 PM - OFF TOPIC - CAD Work Needed (Bill VonDane) 26. 06:17 PM - Re: RV7A Transition Training (Dan Checkoway) 27. 06:40 PM - Partially assembled RV-6A Kit for sale (Joseph Larson) 28. 06:49 PM - Re: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise (HalBenjamin@aol.com) 29. 06:50 PM - Re: RV7A Transition Training (Walter Tondu) 30. 06:50 PM - Re: Fuel Injection System (Kevin Horton) 31. 07:40 PM - Re: Fuel Injection System (Dan Checkoway) 32. 07:52 PM - Re: RV7A Transition Training (Reuven Silberman) 33. 08:05 PM - Re: OFF TOPIC - CAD Work Needed (Bill VonDane) 34. 08:10 PM - Re: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise (gordon or marge) 35. 09:31 PM - 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:23 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update Matt certainly felt legitimately persecuted at the time. Imagine you are a small business owner who gets served a law suit from a big company, when you have done nothing wrong. You've got two choices, and neither are good - roll over and do what they want, at a considerable cost, or fight the law suit, at a considerable cost. Not good. The only reason for the law suit was that JPI decided that they wanted to produce a fuel flow system, and they liked the name that Matt had chosen several years earlier. JPI chose to use the pressure of an expensive law suit to try to force Matt to sell them the name Fuel Scan. There was a furor of bad publicity, anti-JPI web pages created by RV builders, and letters and e-mails to JPI. They eventually woke up and decided to offer to purchase the name from Matt, rather than try to steal it via a law suit. Kevin Horton On 7 Feb 2007, at 24:11, Steven DiNieri wrote: > > > Thats very interesting. In monitoring the list for the last couple > years > I've never caught wind of a payoff... I guess thats good for matt, > but I've > been prejudiced against jpi for heavy handed tactics, and if in > fact they > paid well for they're concerns, I need to reevaluate my defense of the > "persecuted"....steve > 40205 > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:29 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> In defense of JPI, they PAID Matt well into 5 figures for the name >> change. >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder >> (Michael >> Sausen) >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 5:10 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> >> >> Let's not forget that VM is now JPI. Mention the Matronics list >> to them >> and they may sue you for something. One of the EFIS systems I am >> seriously considering is the OP Technologies. The biggest >> shortcoming >> with OP is they use JPI for their engine monitoring. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph >> Larson >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 3:31 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >> >> >> Someone ALWAYS answers the sales phone. Call that number then tell >> the sales person the problem. THEN tell him that all your friends >> know the situation you're having with Vision Microsystems and they're >> all wondering if it's going to be resolved, as several of them are >> building planes of their own and need to decide what equipment they >> wish to install. >> >> I bet the sales person gets to the bottom of it in a big kind of >> hurry. >> >> If that doesn't work, try again, but get in touch with the sales >> manager and tell him that you've been talking about this problem on >> the Matronics RV mailing list with other builders. >> >> Look, the tech support guys don't care if the company gets bad press >> and a bad reputation. But you can bet the sales manager does, and >> he's in a position to do something about bad customer service. >> >> As a last step, call their main line. Ask for the name of the >> company president. Get all the info on him they'll give you -- name, >> phone number, email, whatever. Then take whatever steps you can to >> tell him about your problem. >> >> If none of those work, then none of us should ever even consider >> doing business with the company again. If the sales manager and >> company president can't get a customer service issue solved, then >> clearly the company is in major trouble. >> >> If I think the tech support department is doing their job, I give >> them some time to work on it. But if I've given a company the kind >> of money you paid to Vision Microsystems, then I expect the product >> to work. And if the product doesn't work, I expect a solution the >> same week. If they can't provide that (because you found an actual >> flaw in the product, not just a bad part), they should at least be >> able to tell you so and tell you they're working on a solution -- >> then keep you in the loop. There's nothing wrong with contacting the >> guy at the top and voicing displeasure with the service department. >> You paid them a lot of money for working equipment, and they haven't >> delivered. >> >> But stay polite. You want to seem like the most reasonable person on >> the planet, not the most upset. If you come across as reasonable AND >> upset, that tells them, "Hey, if this reasonable guy is this upset, >> we're really screwing up." >> >> Company presidents HATE getting phone calls from dissatisfied >> customers. They always do something about it. >> >> -J >> >> On Feb 6, 2007, at 2:37 PM, Tim Bryan wrote: >> >>> >>> Wow, this is impressive. Why can't other venders get how important >>> customer >>> service is? I have been struggling to get a bad component replaced >>> for my >>> Vision Microsystems unit for over 4 months. They had me send it to >>> them and >>> now I don't even have the bad one. I can't even get my calls >>> returned. JPI >>> will not provide me another name or number to get results. >>> >>> Jim Irwin, Thanks for caring >>> Tim >>> Do Not Archive >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >>>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aircraft Spruce Info >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:15 PM >>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Aircraft Spruce update >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have reviewed some of the recent postings in response to one >>>> that was >>>> critical of Aircraft Spruce, and we want to thank those who posted >>>> some >>>> very nice comments on the good experiences they have had in >>>> dealing with >>>> Aircraft Spruce over the years....we appreciate your business and >>>> your >>>> support. >>>> >>>> These comments were in response to a former customer's posting >>>> regarding a >>>> custom panel quote and some short cut 4130 steel tubing from >>>> several years >>>> ago. On the custom panels, Aircraft Spruce went into partnership >>>> with >>>> Advantage Avionics several years ago and all panel quotes and >>>> panel work >>>> are now handled by Advantage Avionics. They are custom panel >>>> specialists >>>> and do excellent work. I have responded to our former customer to >>>> apologize for our not being able to meet the quotation he received >>>> from >>>> our competitor on the custom panel, and for the problem he had >>>> with the >>>> tubing. Mistakes can happen, but it is our responsibility to >>>> quickly >>>> resolve them for out customers, and in the case of the tubing, we >>>> apparently did not. We're not perfect, but we will keep providing >>>> the >>>> best service we possibly can for our customers. >>>> >>>> Jim Irwin >>>> President, Aircraft Spruce >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Read this topic online here: >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93267#93267 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> > > -- > > Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:30 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations From: "kahuna" Subject changed. For those that dont know what we are talking about, here is a picture of one. Hi Don, THanks for coming to the list to share your thoughts. You have provided us with some great insight into your design. No disrespect taken here. Ive been a member of this list for 12 years. No one survives here without leaving their egos at the door. I hope that you will continue to provide your experience here and share your thoughts. THere are many smart people here, more than I could count. And while there is often a lot of useless rhetoric, there are also many posts that actually save lives. That Im sure of. So if you have a few minutes, lets look at the design of the purge valve and some design goals. Lets start from some common ground. Like you, I am also responsible for the design and implementation of some complicated devices. Some of which have hundreds of man years of development. Some of our gismos are used in the battle field where lives are at risk, so from that perspective we both make things that have high risk implementations. But no matter how hard my team may work, we still provide the opportunity for our customers to get themselves into weeds, so to speak. And when they do, we have violated our prime directive. THat being, "thou shall not let the customer get into the weeds." Cause when that happens, no one wins no matter the reason. And when they do, we ask ourselves, "how'd we let them do that?" Clearly the purge valve provides some very useful benefits. You have taken great care to "box it up" so to speak so that the customer can bolt it on. But you also admit that some installations require customers to crack the box open for a particular installation, requiring them to take positive steps to seal the box up. This is clearly an opportunity for failure. Several that Im aware of. IF a customer has to break the safety wire to install, then they are required to safety it back. If they dont, then there is a strong possibility they can get themselves into the weeds. I would be interested in knowing from how how many you are aware of. And when a customer ends up on his back with his kid in the back seat (N360WS), do you really want to tell him, "Hey your in an experimental and you didnt read the directions. Sorry there is nothing I can do. Ive done all I can." I know you don't. And when a customer ends up in the weeds, has the product failed to meet a design goal? I think it has. Whether or not there is anything you can do is what Id like for you to consider. Is there another way? Can you take into consideration all the potential installation options and still keep your customer from ending up in the weeds with this screw stop? I believe the design issue may be that the set screw is required to be safety wired by the installer in some installations. Many customers unmount the valve from the bracket and break your seal. Could the screw stop be locktighted in place? Is there any reason why any installation would resuire the user to remove this screw? Could a small through hole be drilled through the black retaining plate near the screw and safety wired where no installation would required the user to break it? Another tab near by? I dont know. Seems worthy of consideration. What are your thoughts here Don? We can agree that you have a great product, one that has years of design engineering built in. We can also agree that customers do dumb things. I know cause Im one of em. This is not the first mistake Ive made on my plane and it wont be the last. But would you consider my ideas above and provide yout thoughts for this dumb customer. Cause even if I never get it Don, someone will. You just might save a life. Thanks Mike Don wrote: > Please Michael, do not take this as being disrespectful or as an insult to your intelligence. But I feel that the record must be corrected here. I am hopefully not coming off as arrogant but will only list the facts here. First off Airflow Performance sells a complete Fuel Injection kit for installation on RV aircraft. In that kit the purge valve and flow divider come as an assembly; flow tested pressure tested, lock wired and oil flushed. We have process sheets that control the assembly process, and the lock wire sign off is part of that sheet. I believe if you look back on your build record for the RV-6A there are pictures of the purge valve flow divider assembly bolted to the engine. It clearly shows the assembly lock wired. There are instances that customers want to install our purge valve on other fuel-injected installation not using Airflow Performance equipment; this is the customers choice. In this case the customer is responsible for fabricating their own brackets and mounting hardware. The purge valve has mounting holes for brackets on the housing, there is a tag, which says LOCK WIRE THIS SCREW, on the purge valve stop screw warning to lock wire the screw after assembly and the installation, and operation manual has the following warnings in it: > > In the manual supplied with the purge valve: > > . .Lock wire all hard ware. Make sure to lock wire the stop screw. > > In the Appendix in the manual: > WARNING > Failure to lock wire the stop screw holding the purge valve in the housing, will result in immediate engine stoppage if the screw backs out. > > Again here, as stated in the Installation and Service Manual Rev.E: > > OPERATION OF THE INSTALLED SYSTEM > > 2-2. There are many factors affecting satisfactory fuel injection operation in service, which cannot be addressed regarding the design of the fuel controller alone. A recognition of these requirements regarding fuel tanks, fuel lines, fuel pumps, fuel pressure requirements, controls, air induction inlet, intake manifold design, and the operation and maneuvers the aircraft will be subjected to, must be evaluated if the fuel injection system is to function successfully in the airplane. It is up to the owner/installer to use proper and approved aircraft installation and fabrication techniques. Airflow Performance recommends using AC-4313-2B as a guide for approved methods and techniques for installing components on aircraft installations. > > I dont know what else we can do to insure that proper installation and maintenance techniques are used. You are, after all, building an Experimental Aircraft there is no type certificate, which controls the components installed on the aircraft. Thats the beauty of this category. But of course this puts more responsibility on the builder. > > Michael, you stated: > I would respectfully recommend that he find a way to ship the valve with the screws safety'd already, like the rest of his system. The flow divider and fuel servo both come all wired up and ready to bolt on, but not the purge valve. Leaving this up to the installer can lead to a failure to do so. With many things on an airplane, this cant be avoided. But with this purge valve, I think it can be done simply. How many accidents do we need before it changes from dumb user error, to design change? Giving the user a chance to fail, where it can be avoided, does not sound like good practice. > > Well, to answer the first part of your statement, the assembly in the kit is lock wired. To the second part of the statement, I believe we have to the best of our ability informed the customer of the need to lock wire the stop screw. And in some of the instances when the factory installed lock wire was removed for one reason or another it was not reinstalled. Hopefully the person removing this lock wire had enough presence of mind to re-lock wire parts that he/she disassembles and reassembled. Its not any different than lock wiring oil filters, oil drain plugs, propeller bolts, making sure the spark plugs are torqued and your seat belts and harness are on when you take off. Its all about the details. > > But, if you take the analogy further, maybe the experimental kit market should not sell kits that have to be assembled. Is the RV-nose gear in need of design change, if it would fail if you hit a pothole? Should the control stick in an aircraft be welded in instead of bolted in the event the bolt would fall out or is not installed? (This has happened). Should there be cotter pins on the nut that holds the throttle lever on the fuel injector throttle shaft or should there be a lock nut? The cotter pin could not be installed or the lock nut could have no running torque. The debate goes on and on. I guess what Im saying here is yes we the manufactures are responsible to have sound engineering behind their products. Since this is an experimental category, you as the builder have the right to assemble, modify or do whatever. Where I have a problem is when people disregard the proven track record of a product, with millions of flight hours accumulated, to say that the design is defective or needs to have a design change because the original design intent has not been met or the device has been used, abused or incorrect maintenance practices have been used. All of us operating experimental aircraft, myself included have the responsibility to insure to the best of our ability that our aircraft are safe to fly. Doing your own maintenance, modifications or for that matter building your own flying machine is highly rewarding and an accomplishment not taken lightly. Lets face it. Flying is dangerous, but we need to evaluate the risks and be responsible to operate the aircraft in a safe, legal manner. This was the basis of the experimental movement when I got involved back in the 1960s. Experimental aircraft give us a lot of freedom; one way to be able to exercise that freedom is to be responsible. > > I need to get off the soapbox. > > Yes Dan we are having Fuel Injection 101 classes at our facility the 2007 dates are March 2-4 and November 2-4. [img][/img][img][/img] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93400#93400 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M From: "Chuck Jensen" Interesting read, particularly the Judges observation of the Jurors and being able to judge the state of mind of the Jurors as they heard conflicting, emotional and inflammatory evidence. If the Judge is this capable of reading the Juror's minds, I wonder why he had them bother deliberate, since he must have already known the outcome...kind of like those fortune tellers who get in a car wreck--makes you wonder? I would hope that the EAA and NWEAA lawyers made an extensive argument that they were not passing the buck to the Arlington Fire Department and that in fact, it was the most professionally trained, equipped and able group available to provide this service and that it was reasonable to rely on the city Fire and Rescue squad to provide Fire and Rescue services. It would have been different if they'd contract with Joe Smoo who had a pick up truck with a 50 gallon drum of water and a 20' hose. Hopefully, the EAA and NWEAA will have picked up clues from the Judge's writings and allow them to better tailor their arguments on appeal, even if they may not be allowed to raise new ones. Finally, the Judge's comment that he would have coached Corbitt's attorneys to go after the EAA because of their deep pockets. The Judge seemed to be able to read the Juror's minds, I'm starting to wonder if maybe I can read the Judge's mind!!! To my untrained eye, its not exactly "home cooking" but the stove was warm. Fortunately, in our legal system, that's what Appeals Courts are for--to remove the home field advantage. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:57 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M An update on the story following this morning's hearing can be found here (http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/2007/eaa_court_motion_result.h tml). -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93345#93345 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:11 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: RV-List: API FI-101 Class (was: I've sworn off purge valve installations) On Tue Feb 6 11:23:09 2007, Dan Checkoway wrote : >Pretty sure Don actually used to offer "Fuel Injection 101" classes. >The http://www.airflowperformance.com web site has an online thing for >it, but I coulda sworn he held occasional weekend classes at their >facility in the past. Don't quote me on that... Don already chimed in confirming that a classes were still an ongoing activity at AirFlow, and the upcoming dates. I want to chime in and say what a _fantastic_ _deal_ the class is. I had long ago decided to go with the API FI system for my RV, and yet knew I was totally ignorant about FI systems. I hate being ignorant. :) I eventually signed up for Don's class and headed down to sunny beautiful Spartanburg, SC (I live in NC) for the weekend class. It was -great-. Don covers FI basics, covers the details of the API system. For Bendix FI users he also touches on those areas where the Bendix FI system is different. (Note that API is a FAA certified Bendix overhaul center, so they do know the Bendix technology ... never mind Don's past life as a Bendix employee). You get to see parts. You get to see how all the pieces play together. You get an idea of how pressure is "used up" through the system. You get to learn that a flow divider isn't just a fancy manifold. You get a up-close feel for the elegant engineering that goes into these units. You get a sense of the dedication that goes into the product and which is behind the whole organization. Along with classroom time you get to spend hands-on time in their assembly and calibration area. You get to -see- the units working on their test benches, and can get a real feel for exactly how these puppies work. Never mind that they -feed- you too. After class every night Don fired up the grill out behind the hanger and we all sat around eating and talking airplane-stuff for a few more hours. Oh ... and yeah ... I came away a LOT less ignorant about FI systems, so that goal was accomplished too. :) I speak only as a happy customer, and can't possibly recommend the class (or AirFlow Performance in general) strongly enough. Go. Particularly if you know -nothing- about FI systems ... go to the class. Its a winner. -- Dwight ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:57 AM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations I believe Dan is still offering the classes. I flew my RV-8 to Airflow Performance last year and had Don balance my injectors. For $300 no fewer than three of Don's technicians and/or Don himself worked with me and my airplane for over 4 hours to dial in the injectors, conduct 3 test flights, give me a tour of their facility and tell me everything I ever wanted to know about fuel injection. I'm sure Don's classes are full of great information as he is extremely knowledgeable, but for my money the education I got while getting my injectors balanced was like having a personal tutor in a lab class. Outstanding! Ron Schreck RV-8, "Miss Izzy" Gold Hill Airpark, NC > Pretty sure Don actually used to offer "Fuel >Injection 101" classes. > The http://www.airflowperformance.com web site has >an online thing for > it, but I coulda sworn he held occasional weekend >classes at their > facility in the past. Don't quote me on that... > do not archive > )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry Filby To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: I've sworn off purge valve installations Excellent info ... I'd bet there'd be a lot of interest if Don put together a talk on the system ... there's got to be a fair sized number of installations out there at this point ... g ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:33 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M > services. It would have been different if they'd contract > with Joe Smoo who had a pick up truck with a 50 gallon drum > of water and a 20' hose. You know I was thinking about this as I was driving home last night. I didn't see any indication that ANY of the first responders testified in this case. Now, they may have; I just didn't see any indication or reference to the fact they did. Given that there was testimony that they were rather slow...hooked up the hose to the wrong line, waited to put all their equipment on etc. (note: I'm not saying they did; I'm just saying that that's what one side said they did), I wonder why the EAA didn't put someone from the fire department on to say exactly what they did? Especially since the city had immunity in the case. > To my untrained eye, its not exactly "home cooking" but the > stove was warm. Fortunately, in our legal system, that's > what Appeals Courts are for--to remove the home field advantage. I like the chances in the appeals process. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:00 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring Interesting discussion on purge valves. No problems with my AFP Purge Valve and it came with all the screws already safety wired. I worry about the valve cutoff arm inadvertently closing during flight resulting in an engine shut down. I've connected the arm to the cockpit with a Bowden cable which locks in "Run" position. However, I worry what would happen if the cable breaks or comes loose at the control arm. The solution seems to be a spring that would hold the arm to the "Run" position. Has anybody installed such a safety spring and how did you arrange it? Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:32 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I am bothered by the outcome of this litigation for another reason. It seems to set a precedent that could affect any fly-in. Pilots are often invited fly-ins large or small, sponsored by individuals, fly-in communities, clubs, EAA Chapters or whatever. Many (possibly most) small airports do not have manned emergency equipment located on the field 24/7. Certainly, typical airparks do not have EMTs and manned fire equipment on the field. Will the result of this litigation now imply that any invited gathering of aircraft require contracted emergency equipment and personnel that meet some arbitrary response standards to be present during all aircraft movements? Puzzled Richard Dudley Bob Collins wrote: > > > >>services. It would have been different if they'd contract >>with Joe Smoo who had a pick up truck with a 50 gallon drum >>of water and a 20' hose. >> >> > >You know I was thinking about this as I was driving home last night. I >didn't see any indication that ANY of the first responders testified in this >case. Now, they may have; I just didn't see any indication or reference to >the fact they did. Given that there was testimony that they were rather >slow...hooked up the hose to the wrong line, waited to put all their >equipment on etc. (note: I'm not saying they did; I'm just saying that >that's what one side said they did), I wonder why the EAA didn't put someone >from the fire department on to say exactly what they did? Especially since >the city had immunity in the case. > > > >>To my untrained eye, its not exactly "home cooking" but the >>stove was warm. Fortunately, in our legal system, that's >>what Appeals Courts are for--to remove the home field advantage. >> >> > >I like the chances in the appeals process. > >Do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:48 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring I saw a photo of one on someone's - forgot who's...IIRC the purge valve was mounted vertically. They described the spring just as you have ..... Now I need to find it too - and check my safety wire..... -----Original Message----- >From: Charles Brame >Sent: Feb 7, 2007 12:41 PM >To: RV-List RV-List >Subject: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring > > >Interesting discussion on purge valves. No problems with my AFP Purge >Valve and it came with all the screws already safety wired. > > I worry about the valve cutoff arm inadvertently closing during >flight resulting in an engine shut down. I've connected the arm to >the cockpit with a Bowden cable which locks in "Run" position. >However, I worry what would happen if the cable breaks or comes loose >at the control arm. The solution seems to be a spring that would hold >the arm to the "Run" position. > >Has anybody installed such a safety spring and how did you arrange it? > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB >San Antonio > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:04 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring Charlie, I ran a spring from where the control wire connects to the arm on the purge valve to the baffle for the same reason you cite. It seems to work fine, but I haven't started the engine yet. Terry RV-8A Seattle -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Brame Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring Interesting discussion on purge valves. No problems with my AFP Purge Valve and it came with all the screws already safety wired. I worry about the valve cutoff arm inadvertently closing during flight resulting in an engine shut down. I've connected the arm to the cockpit with a Bowden cable which locks in "Run" position. However, I worry what would happen if the cable breaks or comes loose at the control arm. The solution seems to be a spring that would hold the arm to the "Run" position. Has anybody installed such a safety spring and how did you arrange it? Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:13 AM PST US From: Phil Birkelbach Subject: Re: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring This is how I did mine. 100+ hours and all is well. http://www.myrv7.com/viewimage.php?pictureid=503 Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB http://www.myrv7.com Charles Brame wrote: > > Interesting discussion on purge valves. No problems with my AFP Purge > Valve and it came with all the screws already safety wired. > > I worry about the valve cutoff arm inadvertently closing during > flight resulting in an engine shut down. I've connected the arm to > the cockpit with a Bowden cable which locks in "Run" position. > However, I worry what would happen if the cable breaks or comes loose > at the control arm. The solution seems to be a spring that would hold > the arm to the "Run" position. > > Has anybody installed such a safety spring and how did you arrange it? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:56 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Hey Phil, Am I wrong or is your spring pulling to ICO. Trying to picture how mine is positioned. When I pull my cable it goes to ico. Push arm away from cockpit is run. Not sure but that's how I remember it. Mine WAS mounted similarly to yours. Just going from vague memory here. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Birkelbach Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:45 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring This is how I did mine. 100+ hours and all is well. http://www.myrv7.com/viewimage.php?pictureid=503 Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB http://www.myrv7.com Charles Brame wrote: > > Interesting discussion on purge valves. No problems with my AFP Purge > Valve and it came with all the screws already safety wired. > > I worry about the valve cutoff arm inadvertently closing during > flight resulting in an engine shut down. I've connected the arm to > the cockpit with a Bowden cable which locks in "Run" position. > However, I worry what would happen if the cable breaks or comes loose > at the control arm. The solution seems to be a spring that would hold > the arm to the "Run" position. > > Has anybody installed such a safety spring and how did you arrange it? > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:03 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: AFP Purge Valve Safety Spring From: James H Nelson Mike, Mine is the same direction and the spring is correct. It is pulling to the "run" position. You have to pull against the spring to get it to the ICO position. I will be putting a spring on also. "JIC". I'm using Van's standard pull bowden cable like the one provided for the cabin heat select-- Jim Nelson ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:28 PM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I did read your article Bob (pretty good job too) and I was satisfied that the jury did get the basic facts of the incident. My point about the jury instructions was that a jury SHOULD NOT NEED to be told to use their common sense of justice. They should do that even if it requires them to ignore whatever instructions they were given. THESE are the instructions that I am concerned that the jury did not receive. I'm sure that the lawyers would call this heresy (because this is a nation of laws, bla, bla, bla....) but again, if this was the absolute intent of the Founders, a jury would not only be unnecessary, they would be counterproductive. There was a reason for having a jury instead of a panel of legal experts reach a verdict. Ultimately, I don't really care what instructions they were given. I maintain that this jury failed in their duty to fulfill that reason. Tracy Crook ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Collins To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:19 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M What exactly did you expect the defense team to do when the judge barred the jury instructions, pull out a gun? It seems to me they're availing themselves every legal remedy at their disposal; hardly indicative of incompetence. and, again, if you read the papers, you'd see that the EAA did, in fact, argue that Corbitt was the cause of the crash, and you'd also read that it was the one thing EVERYONE agreed on. However, without the proper jury instructions -- as I see it -- that point would be irrelevant. the chain of events that "start" a persons death don't relieve the responsibility of others do their job. Otherwise we can all save a lot of tax money by disbanding our police, medical, and fire teams. A crook broke into your home? don't call the cops. YOU chose to live there. Wrap yourself around the tree. Suffer, sucker, you shouldn't have been out driving. If you read the papers, you'll see that that the two sides were talking about two different incidents and it came down to whether (1) Corbitt was alive when the fire department arrive and (2) whether the fire department gave rip about #1. What caused the crash wasn't much of an argument because it wasn't one of the questions. And in a court of law, unfortunately, the law is what matters. I suspect the EAA attorneys, simply because they ARE competent, will have more success before another judge. I also would think Snohomish County would take another look at a system where several judges pop in and out of one case. That, to me, is what sunk the EAA in this case. When the music stopped, the wrong judge was sitting in the chair. Do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:55 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I did read it. my comments were my displeasure for the defense team to let the judge bar the "Assumed risk" deal. The deceased was flying a homebuilt experimental plane. They can and WILL kill a human being if the pilot becomes careless. Any lawyer worth his salt should have demanded a sidebar till he was blue in the face requesting the jury get charged with the fact the pilot crashed on his own and started the whole event. If there is a silver lining one would thing an appeals court would see this and reverse the award. off my soapbox and back to test flying my prototype. do not archive Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- "Bob Collins" wrote: Well, to the original point, like I said, the EAA team made credible arguments to have certain instructions (including assumed risk) put into the instructions to the jury and the judge decided not to. it's the judge's call. And to the extent "one of those idiots should've spoken up," I don't know what more I can do. I obtained the motions, I wrote a long article, I even made both documents available to anyone who wanted more information. You obviously didn't read any of them. You're deciding that the legal team was negligent without doing your part to inform yourself of what they did in the first place. Look, I get the "whole legal system is broken" reaction. But what's even worse in this country right now is people not informing themselves when the information is available, and then acting on their ignorance. You can get yourself into a few quagmires doing that.Do not archive tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List tronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:35 PM PST US From: PHILLIP BARKER Subject: RV-List: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars I don't know about problems regarding the canopy, but I have had difficulty reading some digital readouts. I checked out in a rental Cessna at the local FBO and found that the nav/com had the plate over the active frequency polarized one direction and the standby the other. Through my polarized glasses it looked like the LED display for the active channel was dead, but as soon as I raised my glasses and looked again they were lit up fine. The CFI got a little miffed that every time I needed to change frequencies there was a delay as I pulled my sun glasses off. He didn't understand the problem, as both displays looked fine to him and his non-polarized glasses. >Time: 09:15:38 AM PST US >From: "Terry Watson" >Subject: RE: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > >Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized glasses >were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain >orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could block all >or too much light and therefore vision. > >Was that all wrong? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:02 PM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise List, I am getting the urge to build an RV-4 to set next to my RV6-A in the hanger. Since I want to build this one as reasonable as possible orphaned kits are a good option. I have located a 1989 Tail Kit with very little done at an excellent price. Question for RV-4 Builders: Are the 1989 kits less advanced than the newer ones? RV-4 kits appear to have made fewer advances.......pre drilled skins....QB, etc? Any reason other than corrosion to stay away from the 1989 tail kit? Thanks, Tom in Ohio ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:47 PM PST US From: "Robert Savage" Subject: RV-List: Fuel Injection System I have been reading with interest all of the postings on purge valves on the AirFlow Perfromance System. I am getting ready to order an engine for my RV-7A and I am wondering if there is a consensus on what brand of fuel injection that I should order. I am looking at either the Silver Hawk EX or the Airflow Performance system. What are the pro and cons of each? Thanks, Bob Savage _________________________________________________________________ Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:56 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise The original RV-4 kits were not & are not available in QB, pre-punched, pre-marked, pre-aligned, pre-anything, no jigs required....in other words. YOU measure, build, drill, jig, alignment line, one step up from plans built. Since you have a 6A, think about a HRII Rocket. Ya take some -4 parts, some parts from John Harmon, invest in a 540 Lyco as we did and build an HRII for about the same price as a -4. But you get an RV-4 on steroids. Since the RV-10 the price of 540's has gone up. When we build the Rocket they were cheaper than a IO-360. I assume you have ridden in both the -4 & an HRII.....if not do so as soon as possible. Is the HRII harder to build than a -4 ?..Yes, a little, but well worth the extra work. Too bad your in Ohio or we would give a ride in N561FS. I'm going to post on the Rocket list so watch your e-mail, someone near ya'll may offer you a ride. I assume you built the -6A so an HRII is just more of the same and "Mo Better". Do Not Archive KABONG ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom & Cathy Ervin To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise List, I am getting the urge to build an RV-4 to set next to my RV6-A in the hanger. Since I want to build this one as reasonable as possible orphaned kits are a good option. I have located a 1989 Tail Kit with very little done at an excellent price. Question for RV-4 Builders: Are the 1989 kits less advanced than the newer ones? RV-4 kits appear to have made fewer advances.......pre drilled skins....QB, etc? Any reason other than corrosion to stay away from the 1989 tail kit? Thanks, Tom in Ohio ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:20 PM PST US From: "Ken Arnold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars For what it's worth, I am told aviator's glasses are not polarized for the purpose of picking up glare from other aircraft. The polarization often blocks the glare bouncing off from the plane and consequentially you may not pick up in your visual scanning. I found that in the pattern, I often have trouble locating other planes in the pattern and I wear aviator glasses. Ken Arnold do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "PHILLIP BARKER" Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: RV-List: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > I don't know about problems regarding the canopy, but I have had > difficulty reading some digital readouts. I checked out in a rental > Cessna at the local FBO and found that the nav/com had the plate over > the active frequency polarized one direction and the standby the other. > Through my polarized glasses it looked like the LED display for the > active channel was dead, but as soon as I raised my glasses and looked > again they were lit up fine. The CFI got a little miffed that every > time I needed to change frequencies there was a delay as I pulled my > sun glasses off. He didn't understand the problem, as both displays > looked fine to him and his non-polarized glasses. > >>Time: 09:15:38 AM PST US >>From: "Terry Watson" >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >> >> >>Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized > glasses >>were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain >>orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could > block all >>or too much light and therefore vision. >> >>Was that all wrong? > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:34 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars Fly with any of today's glass cockpit EFIS's and graphical color GPS screens and you'll quickly see why you don't want polarized glasses. Even the GTX330 transponder can be unreadable when tipping your head at certain angles. There are multiple items in my plane that you can get to go black as you tip your head. With non-polarized glasses, it's no problem. On the upside, everything in the plane is very readable in sunlight and a bright cockpit. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Ken Arnold wrote: > > For what it's worth, > > I am told aviator's glasses are not polarized for the purpose of picking > up glare from other aircraft. The polarization often blocks the glare > bouncing off from the plane and consequentially you may not pick up in > your visual scanning. I found that in the pattern, I often have trouble > locating other planes in the pattern and I wear aviator glasses. > > Ken Arnold > > do not archive > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "PHILLIP BARKER" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:20 PM > Subject: RV-List: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars > > >> >> I don't know about problems regarding the canopy, but I have had >> difficulty reading some digital readouts. I checked out in a rental >> Cessna at the local FBO and found that the nav/com had the plate over >> the active frequency polarized one direction and the standby the other. >> Through my polarized glasses it looked like the LED display for the >> active channel was dead, but as soon as I raised my glasses and looked >> again they were lit up fine. The CFI got a little miffed that every >> time I needed to change frequencies there was a delay as I pulled my >> sun glasses off. He didn't understand the problem, as both displays >> looked fine to him and his non-polarized glasses. >> >>> Time: 09:15:38 AM PST US >>> From: "Terry Watson" >>> Subject: RE: RV-List: Off Topic: GPS for Cars >>> >>> >>> Somewhere over the years I was convinced by someone that polarized >> glasses >>> were not to be used in the cockpit. The theory was that under certain >>> orientations the canopy and the polarization of the glasses could >> block all >>> or too much light and therefore vision. >>> >>> Was that all wrong? >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:08 PM PST US From: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" Subject: RV-List: RV7A Transition Training Dear Listers, I will be needing transition training for my RV7A in the next several months in the So Cal area. Is anyone available and licensed to supply this training in this area? Thanks, Chuck 805-531-9855 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise From: Doug Weiler Tom: My RV-4 was a little newer (bought the tail kit in 1991) but I don=B9t think there has been any change over the years to the basic kit (no predrilled skins). One item that I would recommend is that you use .020 thick aluminu m skins. The original kit came with .016 thick skins. I originally built mine with the .016 skins and developed cracks at the stiffener rivet holes after 40 hours. I rebuilt both elevators and the rudder with .020 skins (which Van will supply) and also added one stiffener in each panel by decreasing the stiffener spacing (fortunately I did all this before painting). I know have 365 hours on the airplane and all is well. Doug Weiler Hudson, WI On 2/7/07 5:43 PM, "Tom & Cathy Ervin" wrote: > List, I am getting the urge to build an RV-4 to set next to my RV6-A in > the hanger. Since I want to build this one as reasonable as possible orph aned > kits are a good option. > I have located a 1989 Tail Kit with very little done at a n > excellent price. Question for RV-4 Builders: Are the 1989 kits less advan ced > than the newer ones? RV-4 kits appear to have made fewer advances.......p re > drilled skins....QB, etc? Any reason other than corrosion to stay away fr om > the 1989 tail kit? > > Thanks, Tom in Ohio > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:01 PM PST US From: "Larry James" Subject: RV-List: re: Pilot's family awarded $10.5M Bob, Thank you for your diligence. Your most recent posting citing Judge Kurtz's denial for a retrial is most discouraging. Sorry, but it only serves to deepen my convictions about how our legal system is screwed up. I have not read anything yet that has swayed me from my original thinking and my original statement to "lynch the family and lawyers" (figuratively speaking, of course). In speaking with a pilot friend who saw the local news coverage of this incident, Don Corbitt's wife was evidently interviewed and made comments to the effect that her lawsuit was warranted and would be a service to make things better .... However anyone wants to frame this; I'll call bullshit again. The reasoning and actions of Mrs. Corbitt, her lawyers, the judges, the jurors, and the lawmakers that have allowed this to happen; all make me so ticked off .... they all seem to be so inept at creating for themselves whatever they need to be happy that they justify stealing it from someone else .. and that happens to be me and every other happy productive EAA member and payer of insurance. Yes, I do hope Mrs. Corbitt and her lawyers read this .. no vitriol; just plain statements of reason and fact. Larry E. James Bellevue, WA ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:22 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: Polarized Sun Glasses: Was Off Topic: GPS for Cars On 02/07 7:36, Tim Olson wrote: > Fly with any of today's glass cockpit EFIS's and graphical > color GPS screens and you'll quickly see why you don't want > polarized glasses. Don't know about other EFIS systems but I routinely fly behind my GRT EFIS with polarized sun glasses and see the screeen very well. ymmv. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com - Flying! http://www.evorocket.com - Building ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:22 PM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: RV-List: OFF TOPIC - CAD Work Needed I need something drawn up in cad... Is there anyone out there that can help me out? Thanks! -Bill VonDane please contact me off list at bill @ vondane dot com do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:23 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7A Transition Training Chuck, Are you on the SoCal-RVlist Yahoo group? That would be a good place to post this. There are at least two "A" model CFIs in SoCal that I know of... Mercedes Ratliffe (RV-6A, probably closer to you in 805) and Reuven Silberman (RV-7A). Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCal-RVlist to join, and I recommend posting there. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck & Deanna Schieffer To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:43 PM Subject: RV-List: RV7A Transition Training Dear Listers, I will be needing transition training for my RV7A in the next several months in the So Cal area. Is anyone available and licensed to supply this training in this area? Thanks, Chuck 805-531-9855 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:32 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: RV-List: Partially assembled RV-6A Kit for sale I have an RV-6A kit partially assembled. The tail feathers are done except for fiberglass. Wings are almost ready to cover. I have the fuse kit but have done almost nothing with it. Total invested is roughly $8k - $9k. Everything purchased for it was purchased between 1994 and 1998. I'd love to get $6k for what I have but would consider serious offers less than that. Craftsmanship is what I'd call "average". This is my first project remotely of this type, and there are imperfections. Construction has been inspected by Tom Berge and he hasn't said, "What the heck do you think you're doing building an airplane?" I'll share the imperfections I know about with an interested buyer. Neither Tom nor Vans have said the mistakes I've made are horrendous or compromise the safety of the completed aircraft. Everything is in my heated garage in St. Paul, Minnesota. I could arrange shipping, but I don't even know what that would cost. I can arrange inspections at your convenience. If coming to my home is difficult, I can take a lot of photos or even do a video tour online. I'm selling for a variety of reasons. Mostly, I want to start over with a -7A. I'm not a fast builder, and I think I could get in the air a lot faster if I started over on a -7A than if I continue with what I have. If I don't get any buyers, I'll continue plugging along with what I have. I have too much invested to just walk away from it, and I definitely intend to get an RV into the air. But if someone else can pick up from where I left off and I can recoup some of my investment, then switching to a -7A is the right choice for me. If you're looking to get into the air fast, I think you're better off with a modern kit. Similarly, if you have exacting standards and aren't prepared to fix the mistakes I've made, this isn't the buy for you. But if you would like to get a the first 3 subkits of a -6A for less than the 10-year-old price I paid, this might be a good opportunity. -Joe Larson jpl@showpage.org Cell: 651-235-2578 Email is best way to reach me. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:12 PM PST US From: HalBenjamin@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise In a message dated 2/7/2007 6:47:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tcervin@valkyrie.net writes: Any reason other than corrosion to stay away from the 1989 tail kit? The biggest problem with the tail kit is that it often times leads to a wing kit! But seriously I think you'd be fine with it. You might want to go with the thicker skins on the rudder & elevators. Hal Benjamin RV4 Long Island, New York Finish Kit ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:35 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7A Transition Training On 02/07 6:16, Dan Checkoway wrote: > Are you on the SoCal-RVlist Yahoo group? That would be a good place to > post this. There are at least two "A" model CFIs in SoCal that I know > of... Mercedes Ratliffe (RV-6A, probably closer to you in 805) and Reuven > Silberman (RV-7A). Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCal-RVlist to > join, and I recommend posting there. Don't forget Son Hoang. I got some last minute training from him a day or so before first flight. I thought the training was very good. His information can also be found in the SoCal-RVlist Yahoo group. Or call me and I will give you his ph. #. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com - Flying! http://www.evorocket.com - Building ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:53 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injection System On 7 Feb 2007, at 20:14, Robert Savage wrote: > > I have been reading with interest all of the postings on purge > valves on the AirFlow Perfromance System. I am getting ready to > order an engine for my RV-7A and I am wondering if there is a > consensus on what brand of fuel injection that I should order. I > am looking at either the Silver Hawk EX or the Airflow Performance > system. What are the pro and cons of each? They probably both have the same performance and reliability (if installed in accordance with the installation instructions). But, the AFP is cheaper to purchase, cheaper to overhaul, and cheaper to tweak the injectors so all cylinders reach peak EGT at the same fuel flow. But, if Van sells any firewall forward stuff for a fuel injected engine of your type, it will be designed for the Bendix system. You can expect to have to make airbox mods to match the AFP system, as it puts the air intake in a bit different place than with a Bendix. Dozens (hundreds?) of RV builders have successfully done these mods, so it is doable. Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:58 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injection System It's not so "do it yourself" as Kevin implied. Van's actually sells certain kits for AFP installs specifically. For example: http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1170905908-136-117&browse=engines&product=fab-vertical do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:50 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Injection System > > On 7 Feb 2007, at 20:14, Robert Savage wrote: > >> >> I have been reading with interest all of the postings on purge valves on >> the AirFlow Perfromance System. I am getting ready to order an engine >> for my RV-7A and I am wondering if there is a consensus on what brand of >> fuel injection that I should order. I am looking at either the Silver >> Hawk EX or the Airflow Performance system. What are the pro and cons of >> each? > > They probably both have the same performance and reliability (if > installed in accordance with the installation instructions). But, the > AFP is cheaper to purchase, cheaper to overhaul, and cheaper to tweak the > injectors so all cylinders reach peak EGT at the same fuel flow. > > But, if Van sells any firewall forward stuff for a fuel injected engine > of your type, it will be designed for the Bendix system. You can expect > to have to make airbox mods to match the AFP system, as it puts the air > intake in a bit different place than with a Bendix. Dozens (hundreds?) > of RV builders have successfully done these mods, so it is doable. > > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:06 PM PST US From: Reuven Silberman Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7A Transition Training Chuck & Deanna I am a CFII, RV7A builder and EAA Flight Advisor located at Gillespie Field in San Diego. Where in SoCal are you located? Reuven Silberman RV7A N7WT Chuck & Deanna Schieffer wrote: Dear Listers, I will be needing transition training for my RV7A in the next several months in the So Cal area. Is anyone available and licensed to supply this training in this area? Thanks, Chuck 805-531-9855 "No pressure, no diamonds". ~Thomas Carlyle ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:13 PM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: RV-List: Re: OFF TOPIC - CAD Work Needed Thanks to all that responded... I found someone to help me out! -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill VonDane To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: OFF TOPIC - CAD Work Needed I need something drawn up in cad... Is there anyone out there that can help me out? Thanks! -Bill VonDane please contact me off list at bill @ vondane dot com do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:56 PM PST US From: "gordon or marge" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy Ervin Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:44 PM Subject: RV-List: RV-4 Tail Kit Advise List, I am getting the urge to build an RV-4 to set next to my RV6-A in the hanger. Since I want to build this one as reasonable as possible orphaned kits are a good option. I have located a 1989 Tail Kit with very little done at an excellent price. Question for RV-4 Builders: Are the 1989 kits less advanced than the newer ones? RV-4 kits appear to have made fewer advances.......pre drilled skins....QB, etc? Any reason other than corrosion to stay away from the 1989 tail kit? Thanks, Tom in Ohio Tom: A call to Van's would tell you if the kits have been changed but I doubt if thay have. You don't say what the mission is but you say cost is important. A -4 is great fun but a lightly built one can be even better if sporting around is its main purpose. .020" control surface skins are probably more durable but care with the stiffener installation enables .016" skins to perform well. The spar is hell for stout and you can even have the pleasure of building it yourself if you like. Check the kit for completeness. Where are you located in Ohio? Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:54 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery Sounds great Bill, let me know when ultra lean, six sigma, manufacturing processes get the price down to around $50. Then I'll try it:-) Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Finishing Wiring, electrical checkout. >From: Bill Dube >Subject: RV-List: 3.7 lb, 600 cranking amp, 11.5 A-hr battery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.