---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/15/07: 51 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:26 AM - Re: Why does my engine back-fire ? (Phil Birkelbach) 2. 06:01 AM - Re: Why does my engine back-fire ? (Darrell Reiley) 3. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Tim Bryan) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Tim Bryan) 5. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (rtitsworth) 6. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 7. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Ron Lee) 8. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 9. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (Bob Collins) 10. 08:10 AM - Re: Why does my engine back-fire ? (Dale Ensing) 11. 08:36 AM - San Diego Area - Parking - refueling (L Klingmuller) 12. 09:23 AM - Re: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling (Ron Lee) 13. 09:48 AM - Engine Backfires (Al Grajek) 14. 10:21 AM - Re: Engine Backfires (Gerry Filby) 15. 10:23 AM - Affidavit of Ownership (Dana Overall) 16. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (JOHN STARN) 17. 10:52 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Jeff Orear) 18. 11:05 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (wgill10@comcast.net) 19. 11:08 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Brian Meyette) 20. 11:22 AM - All electric RV! (Charles Brame) 21. 11:25 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (wgill10@comcast.net) 22. 11:32 AM - Re: Engine Backfires (Ed Anderson) 23. 11:41 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (smitty@smittysrv.com) 24. 11:43 AM - Re: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling (Tim Bryan) 25. 11:50 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Tim Bryan) 26. 11:51 AM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Tim Bryan) 27. 12:03 PM - Re: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling (Dale Walter) 28. 12:05 PM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 29. 12:25 PM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Sam Buchanan) 30. 12:44 PM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Dana Overall) 31. 01:43 PM - RV-8 for sale (13brv3) 32. 01:56 PM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Ron Lee) 33. 02:17 PM - Re: Affidavit of Ownership (Dana Overall) 34. 02:23 PM - Re: Why does my engine back-fire ? (Phil Birkelbach) 35. 02:42 PM - Cleaveland Tool Ebay Items. (Cleaveland Aircraft Tool) 36. 02:50 PM - Re: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling (scott bilinski) 37. 02:55 PM - Re: Engine Backfires (Gerry Filby) 38. 04:15 PM - Affidavit of Ownership (James H Nelson) 39. 04:43 PM - Re: RV-8 for sale (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 40. 04:44 PM - Re: Engine Backfires (Skylor Piper) 41. 04:54 PM - Re: Engine Backfires (Ed Anderson) 42. 05:11 PM - Re: RV-8 for sale (13brv3) 43. 05:52 PM - Re: RV-8 for sale (Terry Watson) 44. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: RV-8 for sale (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 45. 06:06 PM - Re: Engine Backfires (Tim Bryan) 46. 06:45 PM - First flight this weekend hopefully :-) (Bobby Hester) 47. 07:05 PM - Re: Engine Backfires (Skylor Piper) 48. 07:10 PM - Re: First flight this weekend hopefully :-) (Walter Tondu) 49. 07:30 PM - Re: All electric RV! () 50. 08:17 PM - Re: Why does my engine back-fire ? (Ken Cantrell) 51. 09:35 PM - Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M (pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper)) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:23 AM PST US From: Phil Birkelbach Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? Gerry, Mine does the same thing. Don at AFP told me that it had something to do with the Vetterman exhaust. I don't really know the explanation but I've asked a few people and none thought it was a big deal. It does kinda freak out the passengers though so I started trying to tell them as I was turning final that it was normal for it pop when I pull the throttle back. I wish somebody would 'splain it to me, so if you get a good explanation, be sure to let the rest of us know. Godspeed, Phil On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Gerry Filby wrote: > Hard to say where its happening - I'm usually in the cockpit :D > > You description of "close the throttle quickly" and "popping" > sounds like what I'm experiencing. The same thing happened when I > was flying the factory 7 with Mike Seager. Dan C's did it as he > swooped down into the pattern at HAF when he came to seem my > project. I'm not worried about it, seems to be common - just > curious why it does it. > > g > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Bill Boyd [mailto:sportav8r@gmail.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 06:50 PM > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? > > > > > >Backfire? Or afterfire? Two different problems, if I understand > >correctly. Is the fire coming out the exhaust, or the air intake? > > > >When I close the throttle quickly, I get some popping, but always > >assumed it was after-firing, from mixture going rich. Never seen any > >evidence that the air filter was being hit with a flame front, but > I'm > >out of my expertise here. > > > >Anyone? > > > >-Stormy > > > >On 2/14/07, Tom Gummo wrote: > >> > >> > >> I had a leak in the induction system of my FI system. Extra air > means extra > >> lean. > >> Leak fixed, backfires stopped. > >> > >> Tom Gummo > >> Apple Valley, CA > >> Harmon Rocket-II > >> > >> do not archive > >> > >> http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Gerry Filby > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:46 PM > >> Subject: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? > >> > >> (Not just my engine - just about every RV I've ever come across.) > >> > >> It does it when I pull the throttle to idle, even if I do it > fairly slowly > >> ... and if I lean too far in flight ... > >> > >> I was thinking that idle throttle, or lean mixture means less > fuel - so > >> what's to burn in the exhaust ? > >> > >> g > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > =========== > =========== > =========== > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:35 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? Maybe the sound you're hearing is just that... the sound of straight pipes used on RV's? Darrell --- Gerry Filby wrote: > Hard to say where its happening - I'm usually in the > cockpit :D > > You description of "close the throttle quickly" and > "popping" sounds like what I'm experiencing. The > same thing happened when I was flying the factory 7 > with Mike Seager. Dan C's did it as he swooped down > into the pattern at HAF when he came to seem my > project. I'm not worried about it, seems to be > common - just curious why it does it. > > g > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Bill Boyd [mailto:sportav8r@gmail.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 06:50 PM > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire > ? > > > > > > >Backfire? Or afterfire? Two different problems, if > I understand > >correctly. Is the fire coming out the exhaust, or > the air intake? > > > >When I close the throttle quickly, I get some > popping, but always > >assumed it was after-firing, from mixture going > rich. Never seen any > >evidence that the air filter was being hit with a > flame front, but I'm > >out of my expertise here. > > > >Anyone? > > > >-Stormy > > > >On 2/14/07, Tom Gummo wrote: > >> > >> > >> I had a leak in the induction system of my FI > system. Extra air means extra > >> lean. > >> Leak fixed, backfires stopped. > >> > >> Tom Gummo > >> Apple Valley, CA > >> Harmon Rocket-II > >> > >> do not archive > >> > >> http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Gerry Filby > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:46 PM > >> Subject: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? > >> > >> (Not just my engine - just about every RV I've > ever come across.) > >> > >> It does it when I pull the throttle to idle, even > if I do it fairly slowly > >> ... and if I lean too far in flight ... > >> > >> I was thinking that idle throttle, or lean > mixture means less fuel - so > >> what's to burn in the exhaust ? > >> > >> g > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > >> > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:30 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I witnessed this crash and I can tell you it WAS hard on me. I was building the same airplane. I normally was motivated by Arlington fly-in and went home to build even more aggressively than before the show. That year after the crash I went back to my campsite and stayed there. I did not go home and build for quite some time. Watching this event even from the other side of the field was difficult. All of this is very true, but I got nothing for it. Now I find out he was retired from Microsoft. Lucky for them I am not like them. I went to the show and choose to be there. If something happened while there.. well I knew it was possible. Guess I won't cash in on this. Tim Please Do Not Archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:30 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote: > True that they invited him, but they did not make him hurry or rish the > pre-flight or taxi to the wrong end of the runway. Nor did they make him > as a low time pilot make the decisions he did. End result is personal > responsibility. > But I know it is different in this case because he would likely say it > was his fault, but it is his wife and her "outstanding lawyer" that made > the assertion of who was to blame. > Sad situation and hope the defense gets a better lawyer on appeal. > Dan > -- The fact that the lawyer determined that burning to death should be compensated at 1 million a minute is stupid. They claim it took 5 minuted to die so the family gets 5 million. I still contend that the pilot caused his death because of poor piloting skills/ improper preflight/showing off in front of the crowd. God only knows the real reason. What about the 10's 100's maybe thousands of human beings that witnessed a person burn to death because of his own negligence. Those people should file suit against the widow for mental anguish because "her" husband scarred the thoughts of all those people for life..... So back to the 1 million a minute theory. All spectators should be paid 5 million each for viewing this crash. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair================================================sp; - The RV-List Email Forum - 7-Day Brows========================= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ================================================ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:15 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M This thread is about as relevant to building airplanes as anything we have discussed for quite some time. Please consider the effect these things have on our ability to afford and fly airplanes at all. If you or others can't afford to insure them or fly them then why build them. These lawsuits are the reason Cessna quit making GA airplanes for so long. It is a major factor in the cost of a sport plane. I once read and cannot quote today but the jest was a Cessna 172 includes $70k per unit cost in liability insurance. If van were faced with anything even close, we would not be building these fine airplanes. Just my opinion of course and no flame intended. Build on, and Do Not Archive Tim _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Dalton Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Haven't we beat this one to death yet? How about moving this conversation to the lawyers and legal forum and let's talk about building airplanes (Smile). DD On 2/14/07, Bob Collins wrote: LloydDR(at)wernerco.com wrote: > True that they invited him, but they did not make him hurry or rish the > pre-flight or taxi to the wrong end of the runway. Nor did they make him > as a low time pilot make the decisions he did. End result is personal > responsibility. > But I know it is different in this case because he would likely say it > was his fault, but it is his wife and her "outstanding lawyer" that made > the assertion of who was to blame. > Sad situation and hope the defense gets a better lawyer on appeal. > Dan > -- Well, you're right of course, Dan. If he hadn't flown in, he would not be dead. But I think we have to approach this from a more legal perspective. It's a given that he died because he crashed his plane. But what if he COULD have lived had the fire department not taken so much time getting their equipment on, hadn't screwed up while connecting the hoses, and had used a foam suppressant instead of water on a fuel-fed fire. Let's say he could have lived if any of those things testimony suggested the fire department did hadn't been done. Then did he still die ONLY because he crashed his plane? I don't think so. I think he died for a couple of reasons. And that's what the jury was asked to decide and, indeed, decided. The "personal respnsibility" thing is a difficult proposition that sounds simple. You're respnosible for 100% of your own actions but it doesn't take much, as I said, to find the flaws in it because it's usually applied in a limited manner. What would make it difficult in this case? What if there had been a passenger who didn't rush his takeoff, who didn't stall the plane and yet did suffer the same consequences of burning to death? Does he have the same liability as the pilot? Do not archive -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:01 AM PST US From: "rtitsworth" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Try this.. Find psychologist to discuss the effect the accident has had on you. Explain to him that you don't feel good about flying anymore - and attribute it to the impact of the accident which was caused but the builder. Get him to prescribe that you need to spend some time flying (getting back in the saddle) even through you don't really feel good about it. Then, sue the estate of the crash pilot/builder for the cost of your "treatments". Assuming the "treatments" lasts for years - you're flying for free! Seems to be a good application of the millions awarded. Just kidding - but couldn't help myself. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:02 AM I witnessed this crash and I can tell you it WAS hard on me.. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:41 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M //BTW Bob I may have missed you saying so but are you an attorney? Lord no. I are a news editor. (g) BTW, read the narrative (before the probable cause, I think ther'es a link at the bottom), it's REALLY interesting. Gets into part numbers, even. Do not archive Bob ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:43 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M At 07:15 AM 2/15/2007, you wrote: >This thread is about as relevant to building airplanes as anything we have >discussed for quite some time. Please consider the effect these things >have on our ability to afford and fly airplanes at all. If you or others >can't afford to insure them or fly them then why build them. These >lawsuits are the reason Cessna quit making GA airplanes for so long. It >is a major factor in the cost of a sport plane. I once read and cannot >quote today but the jest was a Cessna 172 includes $70k per unit cost in >liability insurance. If van were faced with anything even close, we would >not be building these fine airplanes. Good point. My concern is what impact will this have on fly-ins? Will smaller ones cease to exist? Will grass-roots fly-ins run by individuals end because of the fear of massive lawsuits if a pilot kills himself? Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:49 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M By way of comparison, on the Web interface, I believe this thread is the second-most viewed thread since Matt set it up. This one is #1 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=10883 Of course, when you add in the other related thread to this one, it easily is the most viewed thread the RV List has had online as near as I can tell. No conclusion. Just an observation. Love that Web interface! do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:22 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M I see on the EAA Web site this morning that Louisiana is starting another series of 10 fly-ins around the state...I think starting next weekend. Looks like a fun time. I would be interested if anyone flying in, who has participated in the previous series, notices any difference. I also assume SnF would be something of a barometer, although it seemed that the level of services in dispute in the Arlington case... did not apply to SnF or Oshkosh... at least that's what I recall reading in the EAA motion. B _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:42 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M At 07:15 AM 2/15/2007, you wrote: This thread is about as relevant to building airplanes as anything we have discussed for quite some time. Please consider the effect these things have on our ability to afford and fly airplanes at all. If you or others can=12t afford to insure them or fly them then why build them. These lawsuits are the reason Cessna quit making GA airplanes for so long. It is a major factor in the cost of a sport plane. I once read and cannot quote today but the jest was a Cessna 172 includes $70k per unit cost in liability insurance. If van were faced with anything even close, we would not be building these fine airplanes. Good point. My concern is what impact will this have on fly-ins? Will smaller ones cease to exist? Will grass-roots fly-ins run by individuals end because of the fear of massive lawsuits if a pilot kills himself? Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:25 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? With highly tuned race engines the situation described is usually a result of unburned fuel in the exhaust . When the throttle is closed quickly the engine (the pump) is being driven externally. In our case is by the windmilling prop. The pump is packing more fuel into the cylinders than is being burned in the cylinders and the excess is suddenly dumped into the hot exhaust causing the small explosion in the exhaust. Could this be the cause? I have not had it happen. Just putting forth a theory. Dale Ensing Gerry, Mine does the same thing. Don at AFP told me that it had something to do with the Vetterman exhaust. I don't really know the explanation but I've asked a few people and none thought it was a big deal. It does kinda freak out the passengers though so I started trying to tell them as I was turning final that it was normal for it pop when I pull the throttle back. I wish somebody would 'splain it to me, so if you get a good explanation, be sure to let the rest of us know. Godspeed, Phil On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Gerry Filby wrote: You description of "close the throttle quickly" and "popping" sounds like what I'm experiencing. The same thing happened when I was flying the factory 7 with Mike Seager. Dan C's did it as he swooped down into the pattern at HAF when he came to seem my project. I'm not worried about it, seems to be common - just curious why it does it. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:39 AM PST US From: "L Klingmuller" Subject: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling In a ten days I plan to fly to San Diego, CA from Denver, CO We need to see people in Carlsbad but then my passenger needs to catch a plane from San Diego Int. to fly to Central America. Which airport would be best? Montgomery, Gillespie, McClellan-Palomar or where?? Which AP is RV friendly, cheap fuel, car rental, taxi from Ap to San Diego Int. etc. ?? Lothar, RV_6A 675hrs, doing conditional inspection. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:49 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling fuel prices at www.airnav.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:36 AM PST US From: "Al Grajek" Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires I think you are confused between BACKfire and AFTERfire. All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you pull to idle. All engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the RVs is you dont have a muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the idle setting. Al Grajek RV8 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:01 AM PST US From: "Gerry Filby" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Agreed that I am confused, if one can be confused having no knowledge whatsoever. If "afterfire" is the case - where is the excess fuel coming from, assuming: - fuel is burned to provide power when the throttle is open - there is little or no fuel when the throttle is closed (or the engine would be developing power) (BTW I have the muffled exhaust from Vettermans, although I understand its little more than 2 expansion chambers.) g >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Grajek [mailto:algrajek@msn.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:47 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > >I think you are confused between BACKfire and AFTERfire. >All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you pull to idle. All >engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the RVs is you dont have a >muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the idle setting. >Al Grajek >RV8 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:54 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. I'm guessing social security number? Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:05 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M AMEN.........As I have noted before... Examples: The Copperstate Dash is no longer held not because of an accident, injury or even a real lawsuit. It is not longer held because of the "possible" exposure to such a "possible" lawsuit. We now do not require the wolf to be at the door only that the shadow of a "possible" small dog, as perceived in minds of those counting the beans. What was the Copperstate Dash ? ?. It was a "dash" from Apple Valley Airport CA (APV) to the opening of the Annual EAA Southwest Regional Fly-in in Arizona. The Apple Valley Air Show (a one day event) is now an airfare/open house. Why ? ?, Because the cost of insurance ($15,000.00+) could not be justified, earned from the gate nor paid for by those putting on the show. Hide & watch...Since this matter involving the EAA and the Northwest Regional EAA fly-in at Arlington Washington we'll have to see if it has any more adverse effects on the event. And surely you don't believe we've heard the last of the OSH accident(s). KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M At 07:15 AM 2/15/2007, you wrote: This thread is about as relevant to building airplanes as anything we have discussed for quite some time. Please consider the effect these things have on our ability to afford and fly airplanes at all. If you or others can't afford to insure them or fly them then why build them. These lawsuits are the reason Cessna quit making GA airplanes for so long. It is a major factor in the cost of a sport plane. I once read and cannot quote today but the jest was a Cessna 172 includes $70k per unit cost in liability insurance. If van were faced with anything even close, we would not be building these fine airplanes. Good point. My concern is what impact will this have on fly-ins? Will smaller ones cease to exist? Will grass-roots fly-ins run by individuals end because of the fear of massive lawsuits if a pilot kills himself? Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:07 AM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Danna: That would be your "N" number Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership > > Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first > line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. > I'm guessing social security number? > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live > Spaces > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:19 AM PST US From: wgill10@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Dana, US identification refers to the "N" number (US registration number) Bill -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Dana Overall" > > Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first > line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. I'm > guessing social security number? > > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live > Spaces > > > > >
Dana,
 
US identification refers to the "N" number (US registration number)
 
Bill
 
=====
________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:56 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership I'd not give out SSAN unless absolutely required. Seems like driver license or even pilot license would suffice. brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Overall Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. I'm guessing social security number? Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces -- 4:17 PM -- 4:17 PM ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:44 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: RV-List: All electric RV! I agree with all you say. But I do have one suggestion. As I'm sure you know, once the top forward skin is riveted on and the windshield installed on your -6, you will have very limited access to the area behind the panel. If you have any idea of later adding a back up alternator, I would suggest that you install all the wiring for the installation before sealing up the panel. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio -------------------------------------------------------------------- Time: 10:59:26 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: All electric RV! Gotta agree with Dan here. Last year about this time I was trying to finalize my electrical system and had decided that I was going to add a second alternator on the vacuum pump pad as backup. But while I was drawing up everything on autocad I also did quite a bit of thinking. I have been a reader of the Aeroelectric list for the last 4 years. Those that partake of that list know that there has been much weeping and nashing of teeth in a multi-month debate that has been raging about internally regulated versus externally regulated alternators. Several people who bought internally regulated alternators from auto parts stores (and a few from Van's) have had problems with them and some multiple problems. I'd heard a lot about the B&C externally regulated alternators (modern day Nippon Denso modified for external regulation and balanced to minimize vibration). I'd also heard that B&C had very few returns on these units over a long period of time and people on the list who'd used them confirmed that premise. So....much as I did NOT want to spend the money (about three times the price of a NEW alternator from an auto parts store), I returned Van's internally regulated unit and bought the B&C 60 amp unit and regulator. I originally left off the backup alternator from my CAD drawings thinking that I'd add it later and install it after the airplane flies (I've been working on this RV-6 for 10 years and want to get it in the air). But after all the hallaballoo on the aeroelectric list and the talk of how reliable the B&C alternators are, I gave it some more thought and now keep asking myself if I need to do the aux alternator at all. Although I plan on doing instrument flying (when necessary) I don't expect it to be an "all- the-time" thing. This airplane is my traveling machine and stress reliever not an air taxi and if the weather is really bad I plan on staying on the ground. I decided that since, the B&C alternator is so reliable, I have a magneto on one side, a backup battery inside my Dynon EFIS and my mission is not IFR all the time....there is no need to install the aux alternator right now (or maybe ever). Everything is new right now, including the alternator and I don't want to spend the time and effort to install and wire an aux alternator into my system right now. And, I'd rather not spend another $1000 for the unit and its regulator since I've gone way over budget on this airplane already. Just a few thoughts for you to ponder. No I don't work for B&C and, I don't like the price on these alternators but, if it turns out to be as reliable as they say, it will have been worth it (and I shouldn't need to worry about a back up for a long time). Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Registering and paying those use taxes, oh boy! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:05 AM PST US From: wgill10@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Dana, The FAA released a new 8050-88 in Jan 2007...a "fillable" pdf form. Here's the link: http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_registry/media/8050-88.pdf Bill -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Dana Overall" > > Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first > line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. I'm > guessing social security number? > > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live > Spaces > > > > >
Dana,
 
The FAA released a new 8050-88 in Jan 2007...a "fillable" pdf form. Here's the link:
 
 
Bill
 
=====
________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:05 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires "After fire" occurring in the exhaust system is the result of several factors. One, when you close the throttle, you have immediately reduced the amount of air available to cylinders to combust fuel. But the fuel quantity already in the manifold does not fall off as quickly. That means there is generally some unburned fuel ending up in the exhaust system. This fuel can be "cooked off" by the temperatures it encounters in the exhaust - this is promoted in short exhausts as there are "reversion" waves reflected back from the exhaust pipe opening which can push some oxygen back into the exhaust system. When these two factors combine - "after fire" is a common result. There is generally no damage and nothing to worry about - unless you have a passenger with a weak heart. However, it occurred frequently and prolonged I would check my exhaust valves for cracks. "Back firing" (occurring in the intake manifold) is generally when the combustion process occurs in the cylinder before the intake valve is completely closed. This may cause air/fuel mixture in the intake manifold to ignite - sometimes blowing off components depending on the degree of air/fuel mixture and other factors. This can happened due to misfire due to ignition time set incorrectly or to an overly lean mixture. Lean mixtures burn slowly and the process may not be completed if the mixture is very lean by the time the intake valve again opens. This can then ignite the mixture in the intake manifold. Back firing can result in damage. At least that's what I recall about the topic. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry Filby To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Agreed that I am confused, if one can be confused having no knowledge whatsoever. If "afterfire" is the case - where is the excess fuel coming from, assuming: - fuel is burned to provide power when the throttle is open - there is little or no fuel when the throttle is closed (or the engine would be developing power) (BTW I have the muffled exhaust from Vettermans, although I understand its little more than 2 expansion chambers.) g >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Grajek [mailto:algrajek@msn.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:47 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > >I think you are confused between BACKfire and AFTERfire. >All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you pull to idle. All >engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the RVs is you dont have a >muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the idle setting. >Al Grajek >RV8 > > > =========== =========== =========== > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:48 AM PST US From: "smitty@smittysrv.com" Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership OK. Now I KNOW I'm old. My SSN IS my Pilot License number. Smitty http://SmittysRV.com Original Message: ----------------- From: Brian Meyette brianpublic2@starband.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership I'd not give out SSAN unless absolutely required. Seems like driver license or even pilot license would suffice. brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Overall Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:23 PM Subject: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. I'm guessing social security number? Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces -- 4:17 PM -- 4:17 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft Windows and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:33 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling I was there at Christmas and stayed at Montgomery. It isn't that far from the international airport. Fuel prices were high, but parking was adequate, etc. Other than that, you are probably looking at somewhere outside the area like Ramona. I am not speaking against any other location, just thought Montgomery was OK. Tim _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of L Klingmuller Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:34 AM Subject: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling In a ten days I plan to fly to San Diego, CA from Denver, CO We need to see people in Carlsbad but then my passenger needs to catch a plane from San Diego Int. to fly to Central America. Which airport would be best? Montgomery, Gillespie, McClellan-Palomar or where?? Which AP is RV friendly, cheap fuel, car rental, taxi from Ap to San Diego Int. etc. ?? Lothar, RV_6A 675hrs, doing conditional inspection. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:43 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Dana, Wanna get away? Just kidding of course, glad to hear you are getting that close Tim _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wgill10@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:03 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Dana, US identification refers to the "N" number (US registration number) Bill ====== ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:20 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership The FAA will remove that for you and issue you a new license with an actual pilot license number. I did this and don't regret it. Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of smitty@smittysrv.com > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:41 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership > > > > OK. Now I KNOW I'm old. My SSN IS my Pilot License number. > > Smitty > http://SmittysRV.com > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Brian Meyette brianpublic2@starband.net > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:07:08 -0500 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership > > > > I'd not give out SSAN unless absolutely required. Seems like driver > license or even pilot license would suffice. > brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Overall > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:23 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership > > > Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first > line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. > I'm > guessing social security number? > > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live > Spaces > > > > > > -- > 4:17 PM > > -- > 4:17 PM > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > myhosting.com - Premium MicrosoftR WindowsR and Linux web and application > hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:47 PM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: Re: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling I was at Palomar last week, KCRQ. They have transient parking spaces just west of the control tower for $3 per nite. Cheapest gas was at French Valley (F70) only 28 miles at 15 degree radial. Nice but busy field at Corona, (KAJO) 49 miles at 340 degrees, price about $3.40 at the round roof. Controllers at Palomar were friendly, traffic was light most of the time. Dale ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of L Klingmuller Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:34 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling In a ten days I plan to fly to San Diego, CA from Denver, CO We need to see people in Carlsbad but then my passenger needs to catch a plane from San Diego Int. to fly to Central America. Which airport would be best? Montgomery, Gillespie, McClellan-Palomar or where?? Which AP is RV friendly, cheap fuel, car rental, taxi from Ap to San Diego Int. etc. ?? Lothar, RV_6A 675hrs, doing conditional inspection. ==================== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:48 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership In a message dated 2/15/2007 2:43:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, smitty@smittysrv.com writes: Getting ready to send in my registration and have a question. The first line of Form 8050-88 Affidavit of Ownership asks, U.S. Identification. I'm guessing social security number? Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive Dana, Take extra time here and get everything right. The FAA bounced mine because I didn't answer the line "Number of -- ". You are supposed to know to put in "seats -- 2." There are examples in the FAA paperwork for registering your plane. You need to follow them exactly. Dan Hopper RV-7A ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:05 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership smitty@smittysrv.com wrote: > > OK. Now I KNOW I'm old. My SSN IS my Pilot License number. You can have your SSN removed from your pilot records by following a link on the FAA web site. They will issue a new plastic certificate with a new number at no charge. I had this done a while back due to privacy concerns and the process only took about two weeks. The only downside I saw is that the date of issuance on your certificate changes to the new date so it looks like you are a new pilot! :-) Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:18 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership Thanks gang, my reserved number 727BM is on the form and on it's way to OK. Yes, Tim I am ready to get away already............and it's only Feb. 15................a long way to go until April 15th. Last office appointment, 8:30PM tonight!! Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive >From: "Tim Bryan" >To: >Subject: RE: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:49:30 -0600 > >Dana, > > >Wanna get away? > > >Just kidding of course, glad to hear you are getting that close > >Tim > > > _____ > >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >wgill10@comcast.net >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:03 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership > > >Dana, > > >US identification refers to the "N" number (US registration number) > > >Bill > > >===== > > _________________________________________________________________ Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your Live.com page. http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:48 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: RV-8 for sale From: "13brv3" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> Greetings, The time has come to move on to a new project, so my RV-8 is officially for sale. The following web page should answer any questions. If not, there's contact info on the page as well. http://www.radrotary.com Cheers, Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-356#95356 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:10 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership >The only downside I saw is that the date of issuance on your certificate >changes to the new date so it looks like you are a new pilot! :-) > >Sam Buchanan Sam, no one will confuse you with a newbie pilot. :) Ron Lee Do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:32 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership >Take extra time here and get everything right. The FAA bounced mine >because >I didn't answer the line "Number of -- ". You are supposed to know to put >in >"seats -- 2." >Dan Hopper >RV-7A Well heck, I ripped the envelope open only to find my form actually said Number of Seats ______ Oh well, they get a torn up envelope. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ >From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:55 PM PST US From: Phil Birkelbach Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? This seems feasible. Come to think of it, I can't remember hearing any pops while I was practicing power off stalls, so that would support your theory. Would an exhaust system with higher efficiency contribute? That is what I understood Don to be saying. If there was more back pressure then the fuel would be burned up before it exited and wouldn't make as much noise? Just guessing. Phil On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:09 AM, Dale Ensing wrote: > With highly tuned race engines the situation described is usually a > result of unburned fuel in the exhaust . When the throttle is > closed quickly the engine (the pump) is being driven externally. In > our case is by the windmilling prop. The pump is packing more fuel > into the cylinders than is being burned in the cylinders and the > excess is suddenly dumped into the hot exhaust causing the small > explosion in the exhaust. > > Could this be the cause? > > I have not had it happen. Just putting forth a theory. > Dale Ensing > > > Gerry, > > Mine does the same thing. Don at AFP told me that it had something > to do with the Vetterman exhaust. I don't really know the > explanation but I've asked a few people and none thought it was a > big deal. It does kinda freak out the passengers though so I > started trying to tell them as I was turning final that it was > normal for it pop when I pull the throttle back. > > I wish somebody would 'splain it to me, so if you get a good > explanation, be sure to let the rest of us know. > > Godspeed, > > Phil > > On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:51 PM, Gerry Filby wrote: > >> You description of "close the throttle quickly" and "popping" >> sounds like what I'm experiencing. The same thing happened when I >> was flying the factory 7 with Mike Seager. Dan C's did it as he >> swooped down into the pattern at HAF when he came to seem my >> project. I'm not worried about it, seems to be common - just >> curious why it does it. >> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:46 PM PST US From: "Cleaveland Aircraft Tool" Subject: RV-List: Cleaveland Tool Ebay Items. Hi Everyone, At Cleaveland Tool we have been cleaning around the shop again and getting rid of tools that have been sitting around for a while. Some are used, some discontinued new, some product samples. I would like to find good homes for all of this stuff rather than throwing it in the trash so I started the bidding low. Follow this link: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZclevtool to see the 2 pages of listings so far, or you can go to our main page at www.cleavelandtoolstore.com and click on specials, then ebay. Thanks, Mike -- Mike Lauritsen Cleaveland Aircraft Tool 515-432-6794 www.cleavelandtool.com Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:59 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: San Diego Area - Parking - refueling "traffic was light most of the time."=0A=0AHmmm, dont know what day you exp erienced but I know of several occasions where it took at least 15 minutes to get out. CRQ affectionately known as "the lobster trap" you can get in, but not out!=0A=0A =0AScott Bilinski=0ARV-8a=0Acell 858-395-5094=0A=0A=0A =0A________________________________________________________________________ ____________=0ALooking for earth-friendly autos? =0ABrowse Top Cars by "Gre en Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.=0Ahttp://autos.yahoo.com/green_ce nter/ ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:15 PM PST US From: "Gerry Filby" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Thanks, that makes sense to me ... now I'm wondering why I experience th e same backfiring when I lean too aggressively looking for the "peak" in cruise flight at altitude. g -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson [mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires "After fire" occurring in the exhaust system is the result of several fac tors. One, when you close the throttle, you have immediately reduced the amoun t of air available to cylinders to combust fuel. But the fuel quantity al ready in the manifold does not fall off as quickly. That means there is g enerally some unburned fuel ending up in the exhaust system. This fuel ca n be "cooked off" by the temperatures it encounters in the exhaust - this is promoted in short exhausts as there are "reversion" waves reflected b ack from the exhaust pipe opening which can push some oxygen back into th e exhaust system. When these two factors combine - "after fire" is a comm on result. There is generally no damage and nothing to worry about - unle ss you have a passenger with a weak heart. However, it occurred frequentl y and prolonged I would check my exhaust valves for cracks. "Back firing" (occurring in the intake manifold) is generally when the co mbustion process occurs in the cylinder before the intake valve is comple tely closed. This may cause air/fuel mixture in the intake manifold to ig nite - sometimes blowing off components depending on the degree of air/fu el mixture and other factors. This can happened due to misfire due to ign ition time set incorrectly or to an overly lean mixture. Lean mixtures bu rn slowly and the process may not be completed if the mixture is very lea n by the time the intake valve again opens. This can then ignite the mixt ure in the intake manifold. Back firing can result in damage. At least that's what I recall about the topic. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From:Gerry Filby To:rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Agreed that I am confused, if one can be confused having no knowledge wha tsoever. If "afterfire" is the case - where is the excess fuel coming from, assumi ng: - fuel is burned to provide power when the throttle is open - there is little or no fuel when the throttle is closed (or the engine w ould be developing power) (BTW I have the muffled exhaust from Vettermans, although I understand it s little more than 2 expansion chambers.) g >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Grajek [mailto:algrajek@msn.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:47 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > >I think you are confused between BACKfire and AFTERfire. >All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you pull to idle. All >engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the RVs is you dont have a >muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the idle setting. >Al Grajek >RV8 > > =========== =========== =========== > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:01 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Affidavit of Ownership From: James H Nelson Smitty. Request that the FAA change that. They now know that is a no no using your SS number for your license number. The FAA said around last year they would do the change no questions. Jim Nelson ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:50 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 for sale From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" I like the comment on your description that you like to build but then got a quickbuild kit. Funny. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 13brv3 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: RV-List: RV-8 for sale Greetings, The time has come to move on to a new project, so my RV-8 is officially for sale. The following web page should answer any questions. If not, there's contact info on the page as well. http://www.radrotary.com Cheers, Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-356#95356 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:27 PM PST US From: Skylor Piper Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Backfires caused by over leaning is probably caused by the engine missing frequently and the resulting unburned mixture igniting in the exhaust. It may also be due to the fact that the combustion rate at very lean mixtures is so slow that the mixture continues to burn as it leaves the cylinder and enters the exhaust. Skylor RV-8 QB Under Construction --- Gerry Filby wrote: > Thanks, that makes sense to me ... now I'm > wondering why I experience the same backfiring when > I lean too aggressively looking for the "peak" in > cruise flight at altitude. > > g > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Anderson [mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:31 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > > "After fire" occurring in the exhaust system is the > result of several factors. > > One, when you close the throttle, you have > immediately reduced the amount of air available to > cylinders to combust fuel. But the fuel quantity > already in the manifold does not fall off as > quickly. That means there is generally some unburned > fuel ending up in the exhaust system. This fuel can > be "cooked off" by the temperatures it encounters in > the exhaust - this is promoted in short exhausts as > there are "reversion" waves reflected back from the > exhaust pipe opening which can push some oxygen back > into the exhaust system. When these two factors > combine - "after fire" is a common result. There is > generally no damage and nothing to worry about - > unless you have a passenger with a weak heart. > However, it occurred frequently and prolonged I > would check my exhaust valves for cracks. > > > > "Back firing" (occurring in the intake manifold) is > generally when the combustion process occurs in the > cylinder before the intake valve is completely > closed. This may cause air/fuel mixture in the > intake manifold to ignite - sometimes blowing off > components depending on the degree of air/fuel > mixture and other factors. This can happened due to > misfire due to ignition time set incorrectly or to > an overly lean mixture. Lean mixtures burn slowly > and the process may not be completed if the mixture > is very lean by the time the intake valve again > opens. This can then ignite the mixture in the > intake manifold. Back firing can result in damage. > > At least that's what I recall about the topic. > > Ed > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:Gerry Filby > To:rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:19 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > Agreed that I am confused, if one can be confused > having no knowledge whatsoever. > > If "afterfire" is the case - where is the excess > fuel coming from, assuming: > > - fuel is burned to provide power when the throttle > is open > - there is little or no fuel when the throttle is > closed (or the engine would be developing power) > > (BTW I have the muffled exhaust from Vettermans, > although I understand its little more than 2 > expansion chambers.) > > g > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Al Grajek [mailto:algrajek@msn.com] > >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:47 AM > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > > > > >I think you are confused between BACKfire and > AFTERfire. > >All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you > pull to idle. All > >engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the > RVs is you dont have a > >muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the > idle setting. > >Al Grajek > >RV8 > > > > > > > =========== > =========== > =========== > > > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums Want to start your own business? http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:35 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires G, It would take instrumentation to be certain, but I suspect that the cause is similar to closing the throttle. If you have WOT then your manifold pressure is high meaning your engine in ingesting high density air into the cylinders. The piston then compresses the mixture and the plug fires it. However, igniting the mixture with an electrical spark under high pressure is not as easy with a lean mixture as it is with a richer mixture. As a consequence, there is more "misfire" , as you known the leaner the mixture the more misfire occurs until ultimately the engine will not run as the mixture is too lean. At this point no fuel is being burnt in the cylinders but fuel is still flowing into the exhaust. These lean misfires in the cylinder can once again result in unburned fuel getting into the exhaust and being "cooked - off". At least that's my take on it. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry Filby To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:54 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Thanks, that makes sense to me ... now I'm wondering why I experience the same backfiring when I lean too aggressively looking for the "peak" in cruise flight at altitude. g -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson [mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:31 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires "After fire" occurring in the exhaust system is the result of several factors. One, when you close the throttle, you have immediately reduced the amount of air available to cylinders to combust fuel. But the fuel quantity already in the manifold does not fall off as quickly. That means there is generally some unburned fuel ending up in the exhaust system. This fuel can be "cooked off" by the temperatures it encounters in the exhaust - this is promoted in short exhausts as there are "reversion" waves reflected back from the exhaust pipe opening which can push some oxygen back into the exhaust system. When these two factors combine - "after fire" is a common result. There is generally no damage and nothing to worry about - unless you have a passenger with a weak heart. However, it occurred frequently and prolonged I would check my exhaust valves for cracks. "Back firing" (occurring in the intake manifold) is generally when the combustion process occurs in the cylinder before the intake valve is completely closed. This may cause air/fuel mixture in the intake manifold to ignite - sometimes blowing off components depending on the degree of air/fuel mixture and other factors. This can happened due to misfire due to ignition time set incorrectly or to an overly lean mixture. Lean mixtures burn slowly and the process may not be completed if the mixture is very lean by the time the intake valve again opens. This can then ignite the mixture in the intake manifold. Back firing can result in damage. At least that's what I recall about the topic. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry Filby To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires Agreed that I am confused, if one can be confused having no knowledge whatsoever. If "afterfire" is the case - where is the excess fuel coming from, assuming: - fuel is burned to provide power when the throttle is open - there is little or no fuel when the throttle is closed (or the engine would be developing power) (BTW I have the muffled exhaust from Vettermans, although I understand its little more than 2 expansion chambers.) g >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Grajek [mailto:algrajek@msn.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:47 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > >I think you are confused between BACKfire and AFTERfire. >All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you pull to idle. All >engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the RVs is you dont have a >muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the idle setting. >Al Grajek >RV8 > > > =========== =========== =========== > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:22 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-8 for sale From: "13brv3" <13brv3c@bellsouth.net> rvbuilder(at)sausen.net wrote: > I like the comment on your description that you like to build but then > got a quickbuild kit. Funny. > > Do not archive > > -- Funny "strange", or funny "ha, ha" :-) Seriously, I enjoy the overall project, but not necessarily all the tedious operations along the way. I built half an RV-6 back before they were pre-punched, and my first RV-8 was a standard kit (not match drilled), so I think I've milked all the "education, and entertainment" value out of the drill, deburr, dimple, rivet routine :-) Cheers, Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-427#95427 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:43 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 for sale I'm not sure what your point is. Would it be "funny" if someone said they liked to build and then ordered a pre-punched kit? Or any kit at all instead of a bucket of rivets and a roll of aluminum? After building two or three RV's, it would seem that Rusty could decide what part of the building process he wanted to do and what part he didn't need to do again. But I suspect he doesn't need our approval anyway. The real challenges, at least to me, come well after the quick-built part is finished. I like to build too, but next time it will be a quick-build. I only get so many years just like the rest of you, and I have already happily spent most of them. Terry RV-8A #80729 Very Slow Build Wiring -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 for sale I like the comment on your description that you like to build but then got a quickbuild kit. Funny. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 13brv3 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: RV-List: RV-8 for sale Greetings, The time has come to move on to a new project, so my RV-8 is officially for sale. The following web page should answer any questions. If not, there's contact info on the page as well. http://www.radrotary.com Cheers, Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-356#95356 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:55 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RV-8 for sale From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Funny ha ha. Nice looking work by the way. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 13brv3 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:11 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-8 for sale rvbuilder(at)sausen.net wrote: > I like the comment on your description that you like to build but then > got a quickbuild kit. Funny. > > Do not archive > > -- Funny "strange", or funny "ha, ha" :-) Seriously, I enjoy the overall project, but not necessarily all the tedious operations along the way. I built half an RV-6 back before they were pre-punched, and my first RV-8 was a standard kit (not match drilled), so I think I've milked all the "education, and entertainment" value out of the drill, deburr, dimple, rivet routine :-) Cheers, Rusty Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p-427#95427 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:26 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Backfires Your exhaust temps are also quite a bit higher when leaned and will re-burn any spent fuel in the exhaust. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Skylor Piper > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:44 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > Backfires caused by over leaning is probably caused by > the engine missing frequently and the resulting > unburned mixture igniting in the exhaust. It may also > be due to the fact that the combustion rate at very > lean mixtures is so slow that the mixture continues to > burn as it leaves the cylinder and enters the exhaust. > > Skylor > RV-8 QB > Under Construction > --- Gerry Filby wrote: > > > Thanks, that makes sense to me ... now I'm > > wondering why I experience the same backfiring when > > I lean too aggressively looking for the "peak" in > > cruise flight at altitude. > > > > g > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ed Anderson [mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:31 AM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > > > > > > "After fire" occurring in the exhaust system is the > > result of several factors. > > > > One, when you close the throttle, you have > > immediately reduced the amount of air available to > > cylinders to combust fuel. But the fuel quantity > > already in the manifold does not fall off as > > quickly. That means there is generally some unburned > > fuel ending up in the exhaust system. This fuel can > > be "cooked off" by the temperatures it encounters in > > the exhaust - this is promoted in short exhausts as > > there are "reversion" waves reflected back from the > > exhaust pipe opening which can push some oxygen back > > into the exhaust system. When these two factors > > combine - "after fire" is a common result. There is > > generally no damage and nothing to worry about - > > unless you have a passenger with a weak heart. > > However, it occurred frequently and prolonged I > > would check my exhaust valves for cracks. > > > > > > > > "Back firing" (occurring in the intake manifold) is > > generally when the combustion process occurs in the > > cylinder before the intake valve is completely > > closed. This may cause air/fuel mixture in the > > intake manifold to ignite - sometimes blowing off > > components depending on the degree of air/fuel > > mixture and other factors. This can happened due to > > misfire due to ignition time set incorrectly or to > > an overly lean mixture. Lean mixtures burn slowly > > and the process may not be completed if the mixture > > is very lean by the time the intake valve again > > opens. This can then ignite the mixture in the > > intake manifold. Back firing can result in damage. > > > > At least that's what I recall about the topic. > > > > Ed > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From:Gerry Filby > > To:rv-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:19 PM > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > > > > Agreed that I am confused, if one can be confused > > having no knowledge whatsoever. > > > > If "afterfire" is the case - where is the excess > > fuel coming from, assuming: > > > > - fuel is burned to provide power when the throttle > > is open > > - there is little or no fuel when the throttle is > > closed (or the engine would be developing power) > > > > (BTW I have the muffled exhaust from Vettermans, > > although I understand its little more than 2 > > expansion chambers.) > > > > g > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Al Grajek [mailto:algrajek@msn.com] > > >Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 09:47 AM > > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: RV-List: Engine Backfires > > > > > > > > > > >I think you are confused between BACKfire and > > AFTERfire. > > >All(or most) of the engines have afterfire when you > > pull to idle. All > > >engines do it. The ony reason you hear it in the > > RVs is you dont have a > > >muffler. It is just excess fuel burning off at the > > idle setting. > > >Al Grajek > > >RV8 > > > > > > > > > > > =========== > > =========== > > =========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV- > Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums > > > > > Want to start your own business? > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:04 PM PST US From: Bobby Hester Subject: RV-List: First flight this weekend hopefully :-) My aircraft inspection is scheduled for the Saturday and I'm hoping to make my first flight either Sat. or Sun. Whoooo Hooooo!!!!! -- Surfing the web with my laptop from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my RV7A website: http://webpages.charter.net/bobbyhester/FinishingUpPg3.htm ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:10 PM PST US From: Skylor Piper Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Backfires Quite a bit higher than what? When Lean of Peak, EGT's are lower than peak. At peak, the exhaust gas temperatures are, of course, higher than anywhere else, and backfire sounds don't occur there (unless something is really wrong). --- Tim Bryan wrote: > > > Your exhaust temps are also quite a bit higher when > leaned and will re-burn > any spent fuel in the exhaust. > Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:29 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: First flight this weekend hopefully :-) On 02/15 8:43, Bobby Hester wrote: > My aircraft inspection is scheduled for the Saturday and I'm hoping to > make my first flight either Sat. or Sun. > Whoooo Hooooo!!!!! Go Bobby GO! Best of luck on your first flight! Happy safe landings. Be sure to get some pics of that big post-first-flight smile. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com - Flying! http://www.evorocket.com - Building ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:24 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: All electric RV! Nothing wrong with B&C alternators but consider Plane Power. I agree a second alternator is overkill. You do have a battery right? I agree dual alternators is over kill. If your "worry bucket" is high by all means get a back up standby battery. A B&C alternator is just a ND alternator with the Voltage regulator removed. To read their sales pitch you would think they invented the alternator. Yes they do some balancing and anodize it. That is it. It is still subject to mechanical failure, rectifier (diode) failure. Plane power installs fans that cool in the CCW rotation verses the stock CW automotive fans B&C uses. Also Plane Power uses special brushes. I believe B&C uses again stock brushes. Plus Plane power has extra Over voltage protection. The real concern is the voltage regulator. The B&C voltage regulator is nothing special and many have failed. It is hand made unit and nice, but at $230 its a lot of money. Consider a Transpo V1200 all digital VR with over voltage protection for about $60-$80 retail. Some use a $10 Ford VR. Why? What if your B&C alternator dies in the middle of the weekend, 1000 miles from home? What are you going to do? It is a special unit with no direct replacement. At least with a internally regulated Plane Power or Stock ND from an auto store you can go buy one for $130 and drop it in and go. The plane power units do have an extra OV module device, but it still installs the same as a stock unit. So in a pinch you could replace the Plane Power unit with a stock unit. Cheers George --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:20 PM PST US From: "Ken Cantrell" Subject: RE: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? I notice it more when I'm entering the pattern as usual I'm traveling a little faster than I should be. I always figured it was poppin' because the prop was in flat pitch and the excess speed was pushing the prop to a higher rpm than it would otherwise be. At idle the unburned fuel would end up burning or "popping" in the exhaust stack. A sure way to stop it if you're too high and hot is to pull the mixture to cut off and that really slows you down in a hurry if you have a CS prop. Then when you get it slowed down to 80, put the mixture back to rich and you're where you want to be. ...and no more poppin' No one has ever accused me of being any kind of authority on these things but it's just my .02 worth. Ken Cantrell RV-6 O-360 A1A 580 hrs. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Reiley Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? If I'm not mistaken, an intake tube sucking air will also cause this problem. Darrell --- dwhite17@columbus.rr.com wrote: > We had same problem. Potential cause is too lean > mixture, which could indicate an air leak in carb. > In our case, there were some burrs in the throttle > body of the carb. We had to send away to get > corrected. It is much, much better now and only > cracks or pops only occasionally. > > RV-6, Lycoming O-360-A1A. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerry Filby > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:46 PM > Subject: RV-List: Why does my engine back-fire ? > > > (Not just my engine - just about every RV I've > ever come across.) > > It does it when I pull the throttle to idle, even > if I do it fairly slowly ... and if I lean too far > in flight ... > > I was thinking that idle throttle, or lean mixture > means less fuel - so what's to burn in the exhaust ? > > g > > > > > > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:34 PM PST US From: pcowper@webtv.net (Pete Cowper) Subject: RV-List: Re: pilot's family awarded $10.5M Dave Leonard wrote: (*(*^^^%$$n lawyers! "Don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind." 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