---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/27/07: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: Nose Gear Intersection Leg Fairing (Dale Ensing) 2. 05:12 AM - Re: Re: Nose Gear Intersection Leg Fairing (Rick Galati) 3. 05:33 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Russell Daves) 4. 07:37 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray) 5. 08:44 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (John Jessen) 6. 09:01 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 7. 09:03 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 8. 09:29 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Sam Buchanan) 9. 09:47 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray) 10. 09:50 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray) 11. 10:03 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Dana Overall) 12. 10:39 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (David Maib) 13. 10:40 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bill Boyd) 14. 10:41 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Kevin Horton) 15. 10:41 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (John Jessen) 16. 10:45 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 17. 10:46 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Dana Overall) 18. 11:15 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Dan Checkoway) 19. 12:10 PM - Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR (Matt Jurotich) 20. 12:21 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bob J.) 21. 12:33 PM - Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR (Bill Boyd) 22. 12:40 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray) 23. 01:07 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Joseph Larson) 24. 01:27 PM - volume/pressure question (Brian Meyette) 25. 01:33 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Sam Buchanan) 26. 04:18 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Charles Reiche) 27. 05:29 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Sherman Butler) 28. 06:01 PM - Re: Glass for IFR (Bret Smith) 29. 06:52 PM - Re: Glass for IFR (Bruce Gray) 30. 07:30 PM - Re: Glass for IFR (Bret Smith) 31. 07:56 PM - Re: Glass for IFR (Bruce Gray) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:32 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Nose Gear Intersection Leg Fairing Rick, Your nose gear intersection fairing appears to fit the gear leg fairing much better then mine. On mine, the intersection fairing opening (Fairings-etc) is wider than the gear leg fairing (Van's). Did you do anything to make this a better fit? Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Galati To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:52 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Nose Gear Intersection Leg Fairing My high quality Bob Snedaker (Fairings-etc.) upper nose gear intersection fairing is held in place by 2 #6 screws. The nutplates are attached to bits of aluminum attached to the lower cowl. The fairing sits in a recess of built-up filler producing a smooth transition with the lower cowl. To remove the lower cowl, I just remove the 2 screws holding the fairing in place and let the fairing slide down and out of the way on the leg fairing. http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9435/uppernosegearlegfairingxc6.jpg Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:46 AM PST US From: Rick Galati Subject: RV-List: re: re: Nose Gear Intersection Leg Fairing Dale, The intersection fairing is wider than the gear leg fairing. I would suppose it is designed that way to avoid certain chaffing as the nose gear flexes quite a bit fore and aft depending upon the varying weight and load conditions imposed upon it. Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" Rick, Your nose gear intersection fairing appears to fit the gear leg fairing much better then mine. On mine, the intersection fairing opening (Fairings-etc) is wider than the gear leg fairing (Van's). Did you do anything to make this a better fit? Dale Ensing ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:32 AM PST US From: "Russell Daves" Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:04 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:03 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Guys. We the uninitiated, need to know why something is scary or why something is cool. Thanks. John Jessen RV-10 emp _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:33 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Why is triple redundancy scary? You would also have the virtual panel in a hand held GPS as a 4th backup. Just how far do you want to take it? You can spend as much or as little as you want. Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. c om/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:10 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce Gray wrote: > Now that's scary! If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. It would have already been on since entering IMC. With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on teaching autopilot operation. Sam Buchanan =========================== > > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > > Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > IMC > and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the > > other > says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS > and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. > > Russ Daves > N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:19 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Have any of you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the backup? Wait you say, I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL, power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little 2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?) Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious happens? Think these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on it. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:21 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an electrical fire? Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce Gray wrote: > Now that's scary! If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. It would have already been on since entering IMC. With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on teaching autopilot operation. Sam Buchanan =========================== > > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > > Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > IMC > and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the > > other > says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS > and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. > > Russ Daves > N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:54 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR >From: "Bruce Gray" > >Now that's scary! > I on the other hand see that as comforting. My glass setup has just that style autopilot redundancy. IMC, there ya go George, fly on. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Dont miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:42 AM PST US From: David Maib Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR I would make an emergency descent and land ASAP. Glass or steam gauge. I will have at least once source of attitude reference that is completely independent of the airplane electrical system. It will not be vacuum. David Maib 40559 QB wings On Feb 27, 2007, at 11:49 AM, Bruce Gray wrote: I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an electrical fire? Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce Gray wrote: > Now that's scary! If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. It would have already been on since entering IMC. With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on teaching autopilot operation. Sam Buchanan =========================== > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > > Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > IMC > and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning > right and the > > other > says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS > and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. > > Russ Daves > N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:53 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR On 2/27/07, Bruce Gray wrote: > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an > electrical fire? >> Bruce > www.glasair.org I'd radio my final instructions to my next of kin: get a mean lawyer and sue the ever-loving stuffin's out of the companies that manufactured the fuses and wire in the plane, because that simply cannot occur unless _they_ made a _big_ mistake. Actually, I'd roll over and go back to sleep, knowing I was dreaming, since electrical fires don't happen in properly designed and built cockpits, for the reason given above. But I might worry a little that, once asleep again, I'd return to dreaming about "dark and stormy night" scenarios. It's more likely I'd have dreams about vacuum system failures, because they are much more likely. Put another way, Bruce, I think if your question was posed on the AeroElectric list, you'd eventually hear that your time could be better spent worrying about a prop bolt failure than about the disastrous failure of a properly-designed and built electrical system in an OBAM aircraft, given the statistical likelihood of each. I believe Bob N. is right about that. You are welcome to differ, but "please bring data." -Stormy who has "no problem" with triple-redundancy; it's good in avionics and it's good in DC power distribution :-) Drink the KoolAid, Bruce ;-) Resistance is futile. Actually, it's volts/amperes, but that's not important right now... ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:01 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:31:22 -0600 "Russell Daves" wrote: > Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > IMC > and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the > other > says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. > If you are counting on this plan to work, you might want to see how well your autopilot handles when you engage it during an unusual attitude. Maybe it'll do OK, but I suspect it won't do so well from anything more than minor unusual attitudes. If your autopilot isn't up to the task, it is better to find that out on a nice blue sky day than to make this discovery after you end up in an unusual attitude due to an EFIS that has lost its way. Kevin Horton ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:04 AM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce, these are good points, but we do have all electric GA IFR aircraft being built. I believe the Columbia is one such, with full redundancy. Perhaps many builders are not including the full redundancy, and that is something to consider. But, I think it's fair to say that GA manufacturers are trying hard to get vacuum out of their lexicon. From their website: Redundant Electrical Systems - Other modern aircraft advertise being "all-electric", however the dual electrical systems on Columbia aircraft are fully-redundant. The critical difference between dual and redundant is that many aircraft with dual electrical systems have a lesser back-up electric system that cannot operate all standard systems. Consequently, the pilot is forced to make critical decisions to shed power, pull breakers and/or run a partial panel. The second electrical system on Columbia aircraft is a fully redundant system equal in every way to the other system. Thus either electrical system on a Columbia aircraft can start the aircraft and run all standard systems independent of the other electrical system. Dual 60 amp alternators, dual 15 amp hour batteries, dual busses and dual wiring harnesses ensure that an electrical emergency will not force the pilot to shed power, pull breakers, turn off critical standard systems or fly a partial panel in the event of an electrical emergency. Safety by Design - Not by Default. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:46 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Have any of you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the backup? Wait you say, I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL, power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little 2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?) Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious happens? Think these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on it. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." The way you respond to this is that my engine is electrically dependant so I can not kill the master, but I do have redundant busses and I can kill the avionics buss. My dynon is battery powered, the 496 is battery powered, and so is the portable Icom radio. So I can still stay up right, navigate, and communicate. The engine is on the e-buss and so is the prop controller, and will last more than 1 hour on this battery, which can be parallel, prior in the circuit to the avionics master, with the other battery to extend the flight if necassary. Other than that we get into sky is falling routine and if you are that paranoid you should not be flying single engine IFR in the first place. IMHO Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:46 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Have any of you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the backup? Wait you say, I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL, power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little 2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?) Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious happens? Think these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on it. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. c om/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. c om/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:24 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR >From: "Bruce Gray" >Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with >smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do >you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right >side >up. Uh, rely on the internal Dynon backup battery............................ Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:34 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Anybody else have a Garmin handheld with their "simulated panel" interface? It's actually pretty darn reliable! Definitely hope I never have to rely on that, but at a minimum it can be an additional data point in the scan. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:45 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > > >>From: "Bruce Gray" > >>Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with >>smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What >>do >>you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right >>side >>up. > > > Uh, rely on the internal Dynon backup battery............................ > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackwing1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ > The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. > http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:27 PM PST US From: Matt Jurotich Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR I am adding a skid slip indicator just below the Garmin 480 as the ultimate backup to the BMA and Dynon. Not flying yet. Matthew M. Jurotich e-mail mail to: phone : 301-286-5919 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:48 PM PST US From: "Bob J." Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR You know, it never ceases to amaze me how complicated the average RV builder nowadays can make their airplane. Dual, triple, quadruple EFIS'es, dual batteries, dual alternators, etc. I once asked a guy who had such stuff in his airplane what he was supposed to do if the main battery shorted, and how you would isolate it. The response I got was, well you pull this breaker, no wait, that's not right, you pull this one, then, ummm pull this one. I think... Hmmm... To see panel bling in an RV with a fixed-pitch prop boggles my mind even more! As Dan has pointed out, the Garmin simulated panel works amazingly well. A Garmin 396 is as close to an EFIS as I will ever need in any airplane I build, along with old school no-bling round instruments. Just my $.02. I'll have less $$ in my F1 than many RV builders have in their panel alone, with just as much panel functionality. Gotta put my kids thru college someday. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:27 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR Matt, you know that won't replace gyro's, right? So, where are you taking this - compass, ball and airspeed? On 2/27/07, Matt Jurotich wrote: > > I am adding a skid slip indicator just below the Garmin 480 as the > ultimate backup to the BMA and Dynon. Not flying yet. > > Matthew M. Jurotich > > e-mail mail to: > phone : 301-286-5919 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:34 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Right on, if you can't fly your airplane with the master switch off, you're not doing something right. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob J. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 3:21 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR You know, it never ceases to amaze me how complicated the average RV builder nowadays can make their airplane. Dual, triple, quadruple EFIS'es, dual batteries, dual alternators, etc. I once asked a guy who had such stuff in his airplane what he was supposed to do if the main battery shorted, and how you would isolate it. The response I got was, well you pull this breaker, no wait, that's not right, you pull this one, then, ummm pull this one. I think... Hmmm... To see panel bling in an RV with a fixed-pitch prop boggles my mind even more! As Dan has pointed out, the Garmin simulated panel works amazingly well. A Garmin 396 is as close to an EFIS as I will ever need in any airplane I build, along with old school no-bling round instruments. Just my $.02. I'll have less $$ in my F1 than many RV builders have in their panel alone, with just as much panel functionality. Gotta put my kids thru college someday. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:18 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR I think some bling makes sense. Because these are experimental aircraft, I think some sort of engine monitor is a pretty good idea. If you're going to do that, then something like dual-Dynons seems a pretty logical choice. You end up with a very pleasant panel to fly at a fairly reasonable cost. A lot of us really don't want to put vacuum instruments into our panel. Vacuum pumps fail. But I have *never* had an automobile alternator fail, nor the associated equipment. I don't even take particularly good care of my cars, and my current car has 170k miles on it and is 12 years old. Something to wonder -- what is the cost of a vacuum pump as compared to a second (small) alternator and related goodies? Is swapping out that alternator for a backup electrical system really adding anything to the cost? I don't know, as i haven't priced it. If the guy you talked to didn't know how to isolate his battery, that means he didn't have things labeled clearly. It doesn't indicate a flaw in the overall plan so much as a detail to consider. It's a good question and one that any pilot should be able to answer before hitting Start. My panel will be such that a single failure in the clouds leaves me enough system to find an airport. -Joe On Feb 27, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Bob J. wrote: > You know, it never ceases to amaze me how complicated the average > RV builder nowadays can make their airplane. Dual, triple, > quadruple EFIS'es, dual batteries, dual alternators, etc. I once > asked a guy who had such stuff in his airplane what he was supposed > to do if the main battery shorted, and how you would isolate it. > The response I got was, well you pull this breaker, no wait, that's > not right, you pull this one, then, ummm pull this one. I > think... Hmmm... To see panel bling in an RV with a fixed-pitch > prop boggles my mind even more! > > As Dan has pointed out, the Garmin simulated panel works amazingly > well. A Garmin 396 is as close to an EFIS as I will ever need in > any airplane I build, along with old school no-bling round > instruments. Just my $.02. I'll have less $$ in my F1 than many > RV builders have in their panel alone, with just as much panel > functionality. Gotta put my kids thru college someday. > > Regards, > Bob Japundza > RV-6 flying F1 under const. > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:25 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RV-List: volume/pressure question I know there are a lot of smart engineers out there, so I am hoping someone can help me with a calculation that is beyond my knowledge. BACKGROUND: My supercharged Eggenfellner STi engine starts and idles at a too-high value (1500 rpm) after I connected the supercharger plumbing to the intake manifold. It used to start at 1300, then drop back to 1000 after a couple minutes, then drop to 750 after it got warmed up. With the supercharger hooked up, and the wastegate open, it starts at 1500, then drops to 1300, then it kind of fluctuates slowly between 1100 and 1280 awhile, then eventually (the one time I ran it that long) back to 750. Id really rather it didnt start at such a high idle. Details & pics in my Feb engine page http://brian76.mystarband.net/engineFeb07.htm Id like to try to find out in advance how much overpressure I will have at idle if I go to the not insignificant trouble of removing the supercharger plumbing, cutting off the valve adapter, and welding on a larger valve adapter. THE PROBLEM: I am generating X amount of air volume in the supercharger ducting. That volume being vented through a wastegate hole in the ducting is causing a 7 psi pressure in the ducting, in front of the throttle valve. If I change to a hole, what will the pressure be for that same volume of air being generated? What would the pressure be if I changed to a 1 hole? I suspect its more than just a simple matter of comparing the area of the holes and multiplying that comparative ratio times the 7 psi (which of course I can do myself). If that was true, a hole with 10 times the area would still be holding back enough air for there to be 0.7 psi in the duct, which I find hard to believe. I suspect its not a linear relationship, but maybe it is. I hope someone who knows about these things can help illuminate me. Thanks, brian -- 2:56 PM ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:22 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce Gray wrote: > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an > electrical fire? > > Bruce > www.glasair.org This is a different question than the one you first posed. You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are valid. But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I will wad up the plane in a landing accident. What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of providing quality flight info. Sam Buchanan > > > Bruce Gray wrote: >> Now that's scary! > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > teaching autopilot operation. > > Sam Buchanan > > =========================== >> >> >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid >> IMC >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and > the >> other >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? >> >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT > EFIS >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. >> >> Russ Daves >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:15 PM PST US From: Charles Reiche Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR MessageThe G1000 beechcraft have no vacuum driven instruments. You have a battery backup attitude indicator and airspeed and altimeter. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Gray To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Have any of you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the backup? Wait you say, I have a duel bus/battery power distribution system and that won't happen. It's happened. The last one I read about was an Airbus loosing all, and I mean ALL, power in the the cockpit. Total dark panel. The only thing left was that little 2.5 inch backup Jet Attitude Gyro and a flashlight. (as an asside, what's the reboot time for your EFIS systems if you have an electrical hiccup? Can you fly without it for 3-4 minutes, IMC, in turblance?) Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Smells like an electrical fire but no breakers have tripped. What do you do? Kill the master switch? But you need the EFIS to keep the right side up. Keep the electrical system operable and hope you can get on the ground before something more serious happens? Think these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on it. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:54 PM PST US From: Sherman Butler Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR I think the right answer is any pilot is in for a few moments of stress at minimum. I believe there was a study where there was an IMC system failure in a simulator. The results were that nearly everyone lost control within minutes. With system failure try to fly the airplane. My brother, IFR current, in IMC in a Cessna 414 cycled the prop heat and everything went blank. Total electrical failure. The plane stalled twice, bending the airplane. He said he was able to gain control and find a clear area only with the help of our Uncle Bobs ghost, a B-25 pilot. A certified aircraft redundant systems. If you see a 414 with a tail out of wack and ripples in the skin it could be the one. Do not archive. Bruce Gray wrote: Have any of you thought of the alternator frying and in the process burning out the battery contactor and opps, no electro wizzies. Flip all the dead switches you want, no joy. Is there a reason why every certified installation of an EFIS in a GA airplane has a Vacuum Attitude Indicator, ASI, and Altimeter as the backup? Or, you're flying along in solid IMC and the cockpit starts filling with smoke. Think these equipment decisions through with care, your life is dependant on it. Sherman Butler RV-7a Wings Idaho Falls --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:56 PM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Bruce, why is that scary? The autopilot is considered a primary instrument during single-pilot IFR. This is also a procedure taught during IFR training. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:01 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Back in my Aero Engineering school days we had to study a subject called Human Factors Engineering or man/machine interfacing. Most pilots like to flip a switch/pull a knob and then monitor the results of that action, in real time, as the desired or commanded action takes place. Move the stick and watch the ADI change. This is called closed loop control, the pilot is in the control loop and can reverse or correct any undesired results. With your autopilot controlled recovery and a dark EFIS, the pilot is out of the control loop. While the results might be successful, the time waiting for the end of the process, to me at least would be terrifying. With a redundant ADI, ASI, and altimeter the pilot would at least be able to monitor the aircrafts return to controlled flight. It's all a matter of what your comfortable with, I guess. Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with me. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Bruce, why is that scary? The autopilot is considered a primary instrument during single-pilot IFR. This is also a procedure taught during IFR training. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:53 PM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR >Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with me.< Whatever lightens your "worry bucket"... Like Sam said, my A/P is ALWAYS on in solid IMC. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Back in my Aero Engineering school days we had to study a subject called Human Factors Engineering or man/machine interfacing. Most pilots like to flip a switch/pull a knob and then monitor the results of that action, in real time, as the desired or commanded action takes place. Move the stick and watch the ADI change. This is called closed loop control, the pilot is in the control loop and can reverse or correct any undesired results. With your autopilot controlled recovery and a dark EFIS, the pilot is out of the control loop. While the results might be successful, the time waiting for the end of the process, to me at least would be terrifying. With a redundant ADI, ASI, and altimeter the pilot would at least be able to monitor the aircrafts return to controlled flight. It's all a matter of what your comfortable with, I guess. Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with me. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Bruce, why is that scary? The autopilot is considered a primary instrument during single-pilot IFR. This is also a procedure taught during IFR training. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:53 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Surprisingly, so is mine. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:30 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR >Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with me.< Whatever lightens your "worry bucket"... Like Sam said, my A/P is ALWAYS on in solid IMC. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Back in my Aero Engineering school days we had to study a subject called Human Factors Engineering or man/machine interfacing. Most pilots like to flip a switch/pull a knob and then monitor the results of that action, in real time, as the desired or commanded action takes place. Move the stick and watch the ADI change. This is called closed loop control, the pilot is in the control loop and can reverse or correct any undesired results. With your autopilot controlled recovery and a dark EFIS, the pilot is out of the control loop. While the results might be successful, the time waiting for the end of the process, to me at least would be terrifying. With a redundant ADI, ASI, and altimeter the pilot would at least be able to monitor the aircrafts return to controlled flight. It's all a matter of what your comfortable with, I guess. Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with me. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bret Smith Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Bruce, why is that scary? The autopilot is considered a primary instrument during single-pilot IFR. This is also a procedure taught during IFR training. Bret Smith RV-9A (91314) Mineral Bluff, GA www.FlightInnovations.com _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Now that's scary! Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. 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