Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:31 AM - Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR (Kevin Horton)
2. 03:45 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bob)
4. 07:01 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (linn Walters)
5. 08:40 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Terry Watson)
6. 09:25 AM - Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR (Ed Holyoke)
7. 09:43 AM - Sorcerer? (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
8. 10:12 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Robin Marks)
9. 10:17 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
10. 11:31 AM - Re: Glass for IFR (ronlee@pcisys.net)
11. 11:38 AM - Re: Sorcerer? (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
12. 04:46 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Richard Seiders)
13. 06:06 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray)
14. 06:49 PM - GRT Lockup (Tim Lewis)
15. 06:55 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bill Boyd)
16. 07:23 PM - Re: GRT Lockup (Bruce Gray)
17. 07:33 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Richard Seiders)
18. 08:47 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bill Boyd)
19. 09:16 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR |
The current low cost EFIS systems use solid state accelerometers and
rate sensors. Each vendor has their own algorithm. The Dynon
system, which I have, uses the airspeed signal to provide a
correction for the effect of acceleration on the calculated pitch
attitude. It apparently works quite well, and the attitude is
apparently usable, but degraded, even without an airspeed input.
Kevin Horton
On 28 Feb 2007, at 02:56, Doug Gray wrote:
>
> Question: Do the current EFIS systems for experimental aircraft have
> true gyros (laser/micro machine perhaps) or do they resolve attitude
> from accelerometers?
>
> If they use accelerometers how is the acceleration of the aircraft
> itself cancelled?
>
> Doug Gray
>
> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 15:32 -0500, Bill Boyd wrote:
>>
>> Matt, you know that won't replace gyro's, right?
>>
>> So, where are you taking this - compass, ball and airspeed?
>>
>>
>> On 2/27/07, Matt Jurotich <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
>>>
>>> I am adding a skid slip indicator just below the Garmin 480 as the
>>> ultimate backup to the BMA and Dynon. Not flying yet.
>>>
>>> Matthew M. Jurotich
>>>
>>> e-mail mail to: <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
>>> phone : 301-286-5919
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
attitudes every time.
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
> available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
had an
> electrical fire?
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
This is a different question than the one you first posed.
You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
valid.
But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
providing quality flight info.
Sam Buchanan
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>> Now that's scary!
>
> If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
>
> It would have already been on since entering IMC.
>
> With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
much
> hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
similar
> position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> teaching autopilot operation.
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
> ===========================
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>> www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
>> IMC
>> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
and
> the
>> other
>> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>> www.glasair.org
>>
>> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
GRT
> EFIS
>> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
EFIS.
>>
>> Russ Daves
>> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
At 03:04 PM 2/27/07, you wrote:
>But I have *never* had an automobile
>alternator fail, nor the associated equipment
The best car I have ever owned, and I mean that, I had to replace the
alternator three times (in 300,000 miles). I have also had to replace
alternators in other cars and I had to replace the alternator in my RV at
60 hours.
Food for thought!
Bob
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Bob wrote:
>
> At 03:04 PM 2/27/07, you wrote:
>
>> But I have *never* had an automobile
>> alternator fail, nor the associated equipment
>
>
> The best car I have ever owned, and I mean that, I had to replace the
> alternator three times (in 300,000 miles). I have also had to replace
> alternators in other cars and I had to replace the alternator in my RV
> at 60 hours.
>
> Food for thought!
Wow Bob, you surely get your money's worth out of your car!!! If you
got an average of 40MPH (the numbers are easier for an engineer!),
that's 7500 hours of driving! If the fourth one failed right now, you
got (on average) 1875 hours per alternator. Not too shabby. Now for
the failure modes ...... brushes wear, diodes fail, and bearings wear
out. With the exception of the brushes, the other failure modes are
easily detected ..... whine in the headsets (diodes) and slipping
alternator belt (bearings) before anything gets serious. You might
detect current fluctuations before the brushes give out entirely, but
you have to be looking at the gauge when it happens. Alternators rarely
croak because the windings fried. Regulators (the mechanical ones) used
to be a weak spot, but the solid state ones are pretty reliable. The
biggest difference between your airplane and a car is the load. Your
car alternator is sized close to the max load (which can be really high
.... 50 amps isn't uncommon with all the stuff turned on) and your
airplane probably only draws ...... around 20 amps would be my guess
..... so there's less strain on the system. As avionics gets more
efficient things get even better.
More food on the table!
Linn
>
>
> Bob
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Mike,
Why would you put "do not archive" on this? This is important stuff. Please
reconsider.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael
(ISS Atlanta)
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:44 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
<mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
attitudes every time.
Mike
Do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Glass for IFR Glass for IFR |
Just as another data point, the airspeed fitting broke off the back of
our D-10 on the first day of a cross country trip. I pinched the line
leading from the backup steam gauge and disabled the airspeed display on
the Dynon so as to continue the trip. After some hours, (probably 20 or
30), I noticed that the Dynon had the leans. It seemed fairly accurate
when level, but lagged in turns and didn't want to return to level. The
factory told me that there is a file that is written to continuously
that uses airspeed as a parameter that was probably screwed up over time
by having no airspeed input. I wiped the firmware and re-installed,
having first restored the pitot line of course, and it is now cool with
no problems for many hours. I definitely wouldn't trust it in clouds
without pitot.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR
The current low cost EFIS systems use solid state accelerometers and
rate sensors. Each vendor has their own algorithm. The Dynon
system, which I have, uses the airspeed signal to provide a
correction for the effect of acceleration on the calculated pitch
attitude. It apparently works quite well, and the attitude is
apparently usable, but degraded, even without an airspeed input.
Kevin Horton
On 28 Feb 2007, at 02:56, Doug Gray wrote:
>
> Question: Do the current EFIS systems for experimental aircraft have
> true gyros (laser/micro machine perhaps) or do they resolve attitude
> from accelerometers?
>
> If they use accelerometers how is the acceleration of the aircraft
> itself cancelled?
>
> Doug Gray
>
> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 15:32 -0500, Bill Boyd wrote:
>>
>> Matt, you know that won't replace gyro's, right?
>>
>> So, where are you taking this - compass, ball and airspeed?
>>
>>
>> On 2/27/07, Matt Jurotich <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
>>>
>>> I am adding a skid slip indicator just below the Garmin 480 as the
>>> ultimate backup to the BMA and Dynon. Not flying yet.
>>>
>>> Matthew M. Jurotich
>>>
>>> e-mail mail to: <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
>>> phone : 301-286-5919
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Message 7
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Folks,
I hate to display ignorance, but what in heck is a "Sorcerer"? Is this a
joke and I don't get it or?? BTW, because of this conversation about loss of
electrics and such, during my flyoff period I will flip the master off, and then
expect to see my Dynon telling me it's running on internal batt power, and
same with Garmin 296.
Then I'll try my handheld comm and see if it's possible to communicate...
Should be able to aviate, navigate, communicate... VFR of course... Also,
wondering if anyone has thought of a dedicated back up batt just for the A/P??
Jerry Cochran
N18XP Close...Very close..
Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between
the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending
equipment.
Dan
N289DT
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
I thought the exact same thing. This is too important to leave out of
the archives.
Robin
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
Mike,
Why would you put "do not archive" on this? This is important stuff.
Please reconsider.
Terry
Message 9
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
OK...
Done.
Mike
PS. Feel free to do this anytime yourself on any post you read. Reply
back and take it out at your discretion.
Too bad we cant go back and put it in though:) waaayyy to many posters
do not understand the concept.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
Mike,
Why would you put "DNA" on this? This is important stuff. Please
reconsider.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart,
Michael
(ISS Atlanta)
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:44 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
<mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
attitudes every time.
Mike
Message 10
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> >Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it
with me.<
>
> Whatever lightens your "worry bucket"... Like Sam said, my A/P is
ALWAYS on in solid IMC.
>
There is the key. Keep the A/P on. With my Trio autopilot connected to
a GNS 430, I question whether a GNS 430 failure would cause the plane to
depart belly to earth flight.
Will that happen if one of your EFISs die completely or suffer another
undiscovered bug like happened to Mike?
Ron
Lee
---------------------------------------------
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Message 11
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It is the high end Tru-trak AP
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsproducts.html#SORCERER does just
about everything and warm things up in the microwave oven for you, all
with its hands tied behind its back!!
Dan
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jerry2DT@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: RV-List: Sorcerer?
Folks,
I hate to display ignorance, but what in heck is a "Sorcerer"? Is this a
joke and I don't get it or?? BTW, because of this conversation about
loss of electrics and such, during my flyoff period I will flip the
master off, and then expect to see my Dynon telling me it's running on
internal batt power, and same with Garmin 296.
Then I'll try my handheld comm and see if it's possible to
communicate... Should be able to aviate, navigate, communicate... VFR of
course... Also, wondering if anyone has thought of a dedicated back up
batt just for the A/P??
Jerry Cochran
N18XP Close...Very close..
Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict
between
the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the
offending equipment.
Dan
N289DT
_____
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at
<57x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom"
target="_blank">AOL.com.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
sources of support vs one (elec).
Dick
At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
>
>As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
>vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
>said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
>screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
>Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
>cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
>agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
>wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
>firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
>like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
>software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
>but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
>
>Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
>up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
>doable.
>
>It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
>saved my butt.
>
>Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
>many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
>attitudes every time.
>Mike
>Do not archive
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>
>
>Bruce Gray wrote:
> >
> > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
> > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
>had an
> > electrical fire?
> >
> > Bruce
> > www.glasair.org
>
>This is a different question than the one you first posed.
>
>You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
>
>one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
>turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
>
>In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
>valid.
>
>But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
>electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
>and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
>of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
>will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
>
>What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
>
>hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
>turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
>
>think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
>can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
>flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
>providing quality flight info.
>
>Sam Buchanan
>
> >
> >
> > Bruce Gray wrote:
> >> Now that's scary!
> >
> > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
> >
> > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> >
> > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
>much
> > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
>similar
> > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> > teaching autopilot operation.
> >
> > Sam Buchanan
> >
> > ===========================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> www.glasair.org
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >
> >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
>
> >> IMC
> >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
>and
> > the
> >> other
> >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> www.glasair.org
> >>
> >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
>GRT
> > EFIS
> >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
>EFIS.
> >>
> >> Russ Daves
> >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
sources of support vs one (elec).
Dick
At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
>
>As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
>vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
>said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
>screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
>Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
>cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
>agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
>wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
>firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
>like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
>software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
>but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
>
>Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
>up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
>doable.
>
>It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
>saved my butt.
>
>Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
>many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
>attitudes every time.
>Mike
>Do not archive
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>
>
>Bruce Gray wrote:
> >
> > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
> > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
>had an
> > electrical fire?
> >
> > Bruce
> > www.glasair.org
>
>This is a different question than the one you first posed.
>
>You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
>
>one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
>turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
>
>In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
>valid.
>
>But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
>electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
>and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
>of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
>will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
>
>What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
>
>hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
>turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
>
>think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
>can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
>flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
>providing quality flight info.
>
>Sam Buchanan
>
> >
> >
> > Bruce Gray wrote:
> >> Now that's scary!
> >
> > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
> >
> > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> >
> > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
>much
> > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
>similar
> > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> > teaching autopilot operation.
> >
> > Sam Buchanan
> >
> > ===========================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> www.glasair.org
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >
> >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
>
> >> IMC
> >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
>and
> > the
> >> other
> >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> www.glasair.org
> >>
> >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
>GRT
> > EFIS
> >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
>EFIS.
> >>
> >> Russ Daves
> >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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Mike,
Extraordinarily valuable email. Thanks for posting it!
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
>
> As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
> vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
> said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
> screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
> Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
> cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
> agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
> wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
> firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
> like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
> software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
> but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
>
> Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
> up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
> doable.
>
> It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
> saved my butt.
>
> Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
> many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
> attitudes every time.
> Mike
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
>> available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
>>
> had an
>
>> electrical fire?
>>
>> Bruce
>> www.glasair.org
>>
>
> This is a different question than the one you first posed.
>
> You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
>
> one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
> turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
>
> In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
> valid.
>
> But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
> electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
> and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
> of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
> will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
>
> What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
>
> hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
> turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
>
> think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
> can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
> flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
> providing quality flight info.
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
>>
>> Bruce Gray wrote:
>>
>>> Now that's scary!
>>>
>> If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
>> conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
>>
>> It would have already been on since entering IMC.
>>
>> With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
>>
> much
>
>> hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
>>
> similar
>
>> position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
>> teaching autopilot operation.
>>
>> Sam Buchanan
>>
>> ===========================
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>> www.glasair.org
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
>>>
>
>
>>> IMC
>>> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
>>>
> and
>
>> the
>>
>>> other
>>> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>> www.glasair.org
>>>
>>> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
>>>
> GRT
>
>> EFIS
>>
>>> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
>>>
> EFIS.
>
>>>
>>> Russ Daves
>>> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Fear not; we're just discussing ideas.
Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
time.
IMO, of course.
-Bill B
On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
>
> Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>
>
>
> Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
> something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
> backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
> sources of support vs one (elec).
> Dick
>
>
> At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>
> ><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
> >
> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
> >
> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
> >doable.
> >
> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
> >saved my butt.
> >
> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
> >attitudes every time.
> >Mike
> >Do not archive
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >
> >
> >Bruce Gray wrote:
> > >
> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
> >had an
> > > electrical fire?
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > > www.glasair.org
> >
> >This is a different question than the one you first posed.
> >
> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
> >
> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
> >
> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
> >valid.
> >
> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
> >
> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
> >
> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
> >
> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
> >providing quality flight info.
> >
> >Sam Buchanan
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce Gray wrote:
> > >> Now that's scary!
> > >
> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
> > >
> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> > >
> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
> >much
> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
> >similar
> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> > > teaching autopilot operation.
> > >
> > > Sam Buchanan
> > >
> > > ===========================
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bruce
> > >> www.glasair.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
> >
> > >> IMC
> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
> >and
> > > the
> > >> other
> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bruce
> > >> www.glasair.org
> > >>
> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
> >GRT
> > > EFIS
> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
> >EFIS.
> > >>
> > >> Russ Daves
> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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What's valuable is that he survived. There's many here who fly off into the
clag with just an EFIS and a T&B. If that had happened to them, they would
not be here.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: RV-List: GRT Lockup
Mike,
Extraordinarily valuable email. Thanks for posting it!
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
<mailto:mike.stewart@us.ibm.com> <mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
attitudes every time.
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
<sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bruce Gray wrote:
<Bruce@glasair.org>
I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
had an
electrical fire?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
This is a different question than the one you first posed.
You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
valid.
But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
providing quality flight info.
Sam Buchanan
<sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bruce Gray wrote:
Now that's scary!
If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
It would have already been on since entering IMC.
With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
much
hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
similar
position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
teaching autopilot operation.
Sam Buchanan
===========================
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
IMC
and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
and
the
other
says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
GRT
EFIS
and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
EFIS.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Granted. Of course vacuum systems can and do fail, but not likely at
the same time should you lose electrical power in IMC or otherwise.
Dick
At 09:55 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>
>Fear not; we're just discussing ideas.
>
>Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
>personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
>failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
>designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
>time.
>
>IMO, of course.
>
>-Bill B
>
>On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
>>
>>Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
>>
>>Bruce
>>www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>>
>>
>>
>>Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
>>something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
>>backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
>>sources of support vs one (elec).
>>Dick
>>
>>
>>At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>>
>> ><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
>> >
>> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
>> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
>> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
>> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
>> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
>> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
>> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
>> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
>> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
>> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
>> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
>> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
>> >
>> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
>> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
>> >doable.
>> >
>> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
>> >saved my butt.
>> >
>> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
>> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
>> >attitudes every time.
>> >Mike
>> >Do not archive
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
>> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>> >
>> >
>> >Bruce Gray wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
>> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
>> >had an
>> > > electrical fire?
>> > >
>> > > Bruce
>> > > www.glasair.org
>> >
>> >This is a different question than the one you first posed.
>> >
>> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
>> >
>> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
>> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
>> >
>> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
>> >valid.
>> >
>> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
>> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
>> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
>> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
>> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
>> >
>> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
>> >
>> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
>> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
>> >
>> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
>> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
>> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
>> >providing quality flight info.
>> >
>> >Sam Buchanan
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Bruce Gray wrote:
>> > >> Now that's scary!
>> > >
>> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
>> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
>> > >
>> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
>> > >
>> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
>> >much
>> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
>> >similar
>> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
>> > > teaching autopilot operation.
>> > >
>> > > Sam Buchanan
>> > >
>> > > ===========================
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Bruce
>> > >> www.glasair.org
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >
>> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
>> >
>> > >> IMC
>> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
>> >and
>> > > the
>> > >> other
>> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Bruce
>> > >> www.glasair.org
>> > >>
>> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
>> >GRT
>> > > EFIS
>> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
>> >EFIS.
>> > >>
>> > >> Russ Daves
>> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Dick, IF it's true that electrical systems fail less often than vacuum
(and it may not be, but I believe it is), then it stands to reason
that a second electrical system might be a better backup than a vacuum
system, assuming independence of the two elec. systems.
That being equal or better, the other advantages then come to the
fore: economy, weight savings, perhaps ease of installation...
Additionally, I'm looking at this question in light of the reliability
and redundancy offered by a dual-EFIS dual-AHRS installation that
cross-checks for errors every few mS, and instantly flags any
conflict. My MEMS-gyro-based autopilot will tell me at a glance which
EFIS/AHRS is bad and needs to be powered down for the rest of the
flight. Such a system needs no vacuum backup, just a second source of
electromotive force. ;-) I know of no way to have an electronic and
a vacuum based system perform automatic, repetitive integrity
cross-checks on each other, so I'm a convert to the new glass systems.
To each his own. That's the "stream" you might be swimming against,
that Bruce referred to.
-Bill
On 2/28/07, Richard Seiders <seiders@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Granted. Of course vacuum systems can and do fail, but not likely at
> the same time should you lose electrical power in IMC or otherwise.
> Dick
>
>
> At 09:55 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Fear not; we're just discussing ideas.
> >
> >Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
> >personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
> >failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
> >designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
> >time.
> >
> >IMO, of course.
> >
> >-Bill B
> >
> >On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
> >>
> >>Bruce
> >>www.glasair.org
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders
> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
> >>To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
> >>something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
> >>backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
> >>sources of support vs one (elec).
> >>Dick
> >>
> >>
> >>At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
> >>
> >> ><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
> >> >
> >> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
> >> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One
> >> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
> >> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
> >> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
> >> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
> >> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
> >> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
> >> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
> >> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
> >> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
> >> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
> >> >
> >> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
> >> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
> >> >doable.
> >> >
> >> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably
> >> >saved my butt.
> >> >
> >> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
> >> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
> >> >attitudes every time.
> >> >Mike
> >> >Do not archive
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
> >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Bruce Gray wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
> >> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
> >> >had an
> >> > > electrical fire?
> >> > >
> >> > > Bruce
> >> > > www.glasair.org
> >> >
> >> >This is a different question than the one you first posed.
> >> >
> >> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden
> >> >
> >> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
> >> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
> >> >
> >> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
> >> >valid.
> >> >
> >> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
> >> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
> >> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
> >> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
> >> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
> >> >
> >> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can
> >> >
> >> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
> >> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I
> >> >
> >> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
> >> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
> >> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
> >> >providing quality flight info.
> >> >
> >> >Sam Buchanan
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Bruce Gray wrote:
> >> > >> Now that's scary!
> >> > >
> >> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> >> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
> >> > >
> >> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> >> > >
> >> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
> >> >much
> >> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
> >> >similar
> >> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> >> > > teaching autopilot operation.
> >> > >
> >> > > Sam Buchanan
> >> > >
> >> > > ===========================
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Bruce
> >> > >> www.glasair.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >
> >> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid
> >> >
> >> > >> IMC
> >> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right
> >> >and
> >> > > the
> >> > >> other
> >> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Bruce
> >> > >> www.glasair.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
> >> >GRT
> >> > > EFIS
> >> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
> >> >EFIS.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Russ Daves
> >> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
At what level of the data stream are you going to cross check? Most I've
seen only cross check the AHRS output. That still leaves all that
questionable code up to the display screen.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
Dick, IF it's true that electrical systems fail less often than vacuum
(and it may not be, but I believe it is), then it stands to reason
that a second electrical system might be a better backup than a vacuum
system, assuming independence of the two elec. systems.
That being equal or better, the other advantages then come to the
fore: economy, weight savings, perhaps ease of installation...
Additionally, I'm looking at this question in light of the reliability
and redundancy offered by a dual-EFIS dual-AHRS installation that
cross-checks for errors every few mS, and instantly flags any
conflict. My MEMS-gyro-based autopilot will tell me at a glance which
EFIS/AHRS is bad and needs to be powered down for the rest of the
flight. Such a system needs no vacuum backup, just a second source of
electromotive force. ;-) I know of no way to have an electronic and
a vacuum based system perform automatic, repetitive integrity
cross-checks on each other, so I'm a convert to the new glass systems.
To each his own. That's the "stream" you might be swimming against,
that Bruce referred to.
-Bill
On 2/28/07, Richard Seiders <seiders@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Granted. Of course vacuum systems can and do fail, but not likely at
> the same time should you lose electrical power in IMC or otherwise.
> Dick
>
>
> At 09:55 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
>
> >
> >Fear not; we're just discussing ideas.
> >
> >Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
> >personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
> >failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
> >designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
> >time.
> >
> >IMO, of course.
> >
> >-Bill B
> >
> >On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
> >>
> >>Bruce
> >>www.glasair.org
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders
> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
> >>To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
> >>something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
> >>backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
> >>sources of support vs one (elec).
> >>Dick
> >>
> >>
> >>At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
> >>
> >> ><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
> >> >
> >> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
> >> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me.
One
> >> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
> >> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
> >> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
> >> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
> >> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
> >> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
> >> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
> >> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
> >> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone
blank,
> >> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
> >> >
> >> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
> >> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
> >> >doable.
> >> >
> >> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's.
Probably
> >> >saved my butt.
> >> >
> >> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P
in
> >> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
> >> >attitudes every time.
> >> >Mike
> >> >Do not archive
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
> >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Bruce Gray wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using
all
> >> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
> >> >had an
> >> > > electrical fire?
> >> > >
> >> > > Bruce
> >> > > www.glasair.org
> >> >
> >> >This is a different question than the one you first posed.
> >> >
> >> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a
sudden
> >> >
> >> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
> >> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
> >> >
> >> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie
are
> >> >valid.
> >> >
> >> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
> >> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially
deadly
> >> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the
odds
> >> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds
I
> >> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
> >> >
> >> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they
can
> >> >
> >> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
> >> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency.
I
> >> >
> >> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
> >> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
> >> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
> >> >providing quality flight info.
> >> >
> >> >Sam Buchanan
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Bruce Gray wrote:
> >> > >> Now that's scary!
> >> > >
> >> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> >> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
> >> > >
> >> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> >> > >
> >> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
> >> >much
> >> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
> >> >similar
> >> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> >> > > teaching autopilot operation.
> >> > >
> >> > > Sam Buchanan
> >> > >
> >> > > ===========================
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Bruce
> >> > >> www.glasair.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >
> >> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in
solid
> >> >
> >> > >> IMC
> >> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning
right
> >> >and
> >> > > the
> >> > >> other
> >> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Bruce
> >> > >> www.glasair.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
> >> >GRT
> >> > > EFIS
> >> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
> >> >EFIS.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Russ Daves
> >> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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