---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/28/07: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:31 AM - Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR (Kevin Horton) 2. 03:45 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 3. 04:48 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bob) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (linn Walters) 5. 08:40 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Terry Watson) 6. 09:25 AM - Re: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR (Ed Holyoke) 7. 09:43 AM - Sorcerer? (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 8. 10:12 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Robin Marks) 9. 10:17 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 10. 11:31 AM - Re: Glass for IFR (ronlee@pcisys.net) 11. 11:38 AM - Re: Sorcerer? (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 12. 04:46 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Richard Seiders) 13. 06:06 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray) 14. 06:49 PM - GRT Lockup (Tim Lewis) 15. 06:55 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bill Boyd) 16. 07:23 PM - Re: GRT Lockup (Bruce Gray) 17. 07:33 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Richard Seiders) 18. 08:47 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bill Boyd) 19. 09:16 PM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bruce Gray) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:16 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR The current low cost EFIS systems use solid state accelerometers and rate sensors. Each vendor has their own algorithm. The Dynon system, which I have, uses the airspeed signal to provide a correction for the effect of acceleration on the calculated pitch attitude. It apparently works quite well, and the attitude is apparently usable, but degraded, even without an airspeed input. Kevin Horton On 28 Feb 2007, at 02:56, Doug Gray wrote: > > Question: Do the current EFIS systems for experimental aircraft have > true gyros (laser/micro machine perhaps) or do they resolve attitude > from accelerometers? > > If they use accelerometers how is the acceleration of the aircraft > itself cancelled? > > Doug Gray > > On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 15:32 -0500, Bill Boyd wrote: >> >> Matt, you know that won't replace gyro's, right? >> >> So, where are you taking this - compass, ball and airspeed? >> >> >> On 2/27/07, Matt Jurotich wrote: >>> >>> >>> I am adding a skid slip indicator just below the Garmin 480 as the >>> ultimate backup to the BMA and Dynon. Not flying yet. >>> >>> Matthew M. Jurotich >>> >>> e-mail mail to: >>> phone : 301-286-5919 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes. Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable. It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably saved my butt. Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes every time. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce Gray wrote: > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an > electrical fire? > > Bruce > www.glasair.org This is a different question than the one you first posed. You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are valid. But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I will wad up the plane in a landing accident. What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of providing quality flight info. Sam Buchanan > > > Bruce Gray wrote: >> Now that's scary! > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > teaching autopilot operation. > > Sam Buchanan > > =========================== >> >> >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid >> IMC >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and > the >> other >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? >> >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT > EFIS >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. >> >> Russ Daves >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:14 AM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR At 03:04 PM 2/27/07, you wrote: >But I have *never* had an automobile >alternator fail, nor the associated equipment The best car I have ever owned, and I mean that, I had to replace the alternator three times (in 300,000 miles). I have also had to replace alternators in other cars and I had to replace the alternator in my RV at 60 hours. Food for thought! Bob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:06 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bob wrote: > > At 03:04 PM 2/27/07, you wrote: > >> But I have *never* had an automobile >> alternator fail, nor the associated equipment > > > The best car I have ever owned, and I mean that, I had to replace the > alternator three times (in 300,000 miles). I have also had to replace > alternators in other cars and I had to replace the alternator in my RV > at 60 hours. > > Food for thought! Wow Bob, you surely get your money's worth out of your car!!! If you got an average of 40MPH (the numbers are easier for an engineer!), that's 7500 hours of driving! If the fourth one failed right now, you got (on average) 1875 hours per alternator. Not too shabby. Now for the failure modes ...... brushes wear, diodes fail, and bearings wear out. With the exception of the brushes, the other failure modes are easily detected ..... whine in the headsets (diodes) and slipping alternator belt (bearings) before anything gets serious. You might detect current fluctuations before the brushes give out entirely, but you have to be looking at the gauge when it happens. Alternators rarely croak because the windings fried. Regulators (the mechanical ones) used to be a weak spot, but the solid state ones are pretty reliable. The biggest difference between your airplane and a car is the load. Your car alternator is sized close to the max load (which can be really high .... 50 amps isn't uncommon with all the stuff turned on) and your airplane probably only draws ...... around 20 amps would be my guess ..... so there's less strain on the system. As avionics gets more efficient things get even better. More food on the table! Linn > > > Bob > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:44 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Mike, Why would you put "do not archive" on this? This is important stuff. Please reconsider. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:44 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes. Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable. It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably saved my butt. Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes every time. Mike Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:12 AM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR Just as another data point, the airspeed fitting broke off the back of our D-10 on the first day of a cross country trip. I pinched the line leading from the backup steam gauge and disabled the airspeed display on the Dynon so as to continue the trip. After some hours, (probably 20 or 30), I noticed that the Dynon had the leans. It seemed fairly accurate when level, but lagged in turns and didn't want to return to level. The factory told me that there is a file that is written to continuously that uses airspeed as a parameter that was probably screwed up over time by having no airspeed input. I wiped the firmware and re-installed, having first restored the pitot line of course, and it is now cool with no problems for many hours. I definitely wouldn't trust it in clouds without pitot. Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:30 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFR Glass for IFR The current low cost EFIS systems use solid state accelerometers and rate sensors. Each vendor has their own algorithm. The Dynon system, which I have, uses the airspeed signal to provide a correction for the effect of acceleration on the calculated pitch attitude. It apparently works quite well, and the attitude is apparently usable, but degraded, even without an airspeed input. Kevin Horton On 28 Feb 2007, at 02:56, Doug Gray wrote: > > Question: Do the current EFIS systems for experimental aircraft have > true gyros (laser/micro machine perhaps) or do they resolve attitude > from accelerometers? > > If they use accelerometers how is the acceleration of the aircraft > itself cancelled? > > Doug Gray > > On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 15:32 -0500, Bill Boyd wrote: >> >> Matt, you know that won't replace gyro's, right? >> >> So, where are you taking this - compass, ball and airspeed? >> >> >> On 2/27/07, Matt Jurotich wrote: >>> >>> >>> I am adding a skid slip indicator just below the Garmin 480 as the >>> ultimate backup to the BMA and Dynon. Not flying yet. >>> >>> Matthew M. Jurotich >>> >>> e-mail mail to: >>> phone : 301-286-5919 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:18 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Sorcerer? Folks, I hate to display ignorance, but what in heck is a "Sorcerer"? Is this a joke and I don't get it or?? BTW, because of this conversation about loss of electrics and such, during my flyoff period I will flip the master off, and then expect to see my Dynon telling me it's running on internal batt power, and same with Garmin 296. Then I'll try my handheld comm and see if it's possible to communicate... Should be able to aviate, navigate, communicate... VFR of course... Also, wondering if anyone has thought of a dedicated back up batt just for the A/P?? Jerry Cochran N18XP Close...Very close.. Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR From: "Robin Marks" I thought the exact same thing. This is too important to leave out of the archives. Robin Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Mike, Why would you put "do not archive" on this? This is important stuff. Please reconsider. Terry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" OK... Done. Mike PS. Feel free to do this anytime yourself on any post you read. Reply back and take it out at your discretion. Too bad we cant go back and put it in though:) waaayyy to many posters do not understand the concept. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Mike, Why would you put "DNA" on this? This is important stuff. Please reconsider. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:44 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes. Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable. It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably saved my butt. Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes every time. Mike ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:05 AM PST US From: ronlee@pcisys.net Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR > >Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with me.< > > Whatever lightens your "worry bucket"... Like Sam said, my A/P is ALWAYS on in solid IMC. > There is the key. Keep the A/P on. With my Trio autopilot connected to a GNS 430, I question whether a GNS 430 failure would cause the plane to depart belly to earth flight. Will that happen if one of your EFISs die completely or suffer another undiscovered bug like happened to Mike? Ron Lee --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:36 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Sorcerer? From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." It is the high end Tru-trak AP http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsproducts.html#SORCERER does just about everything and warm things up in the microwave oven for you, all with its hands tied behind its back!! Dan N289DT _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry2DT@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 12:42 PM Subject: RV-List: Sorcerer? Folks, I hate to display ignorance, but what in heck is a "Sorcerer"? Is this a joke and I don't get it or?? BTW, because of this conversation about loss of electrics and such, during my flyoff period I will flip the master off, and then expect to see my Dynon telling me it's running on internal batt power, and same with Garmin 296. Then I'll try my handheld comm and see if it's possible to communicate... Should be able to aviate, navigate, communicate... VFR of course... Also, wondering if anyone has thought of a dedicated back up batt just for the A/P?? Jerry Cochran N18XP Close...Very close.. Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:01 PM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR This is also how I have it setup in my plane, if there is a conflict between the Chelton and the Dynon, Engage the sorcerer and turn off the offending equipment. Dan N289DT _____ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at <57x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom" target="_blank">AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:28 PM PST US From: Richard Seiders Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three sources of support vs one (elec). Dick At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > > >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, >but your don't get to choose your fail modes. > >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but >doable. > >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably >saved my butt. > >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules >attitudes every time. >Mike >Do not archive > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > > >Bruce Gray wrote: > > > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you >had an > > electrical fire? > > > > Bruce > > www.glasair.org > >This is a different question than the one you first posed. > >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden > >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" > >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are >valid. > >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I >will wad up the plane in a landing accident. > >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can > >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I > >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of >providing quality flight info. > >Sam Buchanan > > > > > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> Now that's scary! > > > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > > > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > > > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for >much > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a >similar > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > > teaching autopilot operation. > > > > Sam Buchanan > > > > =========================== > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > > >> IMC > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right >and > > the > >> other > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the >GRT > > EFIS > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad >EFIS. > >> > >> Russ Daves > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:46 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three sources of support vs one (elec). Dick At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > > >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, >but your don't get to choose your fail modes. > >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but >doable. > >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably >saved my butt. > >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules >attitudes every time. >Mike >Do not archive > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > > >Bruce Gray wrote: > > > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you >had an > > electrical fire? > > > > Bruce > > www.glasair.org > >This is a different question than the one you first posed. > >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden > >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" > >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are >valid. > >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I >will wad up the plane in a landing accident. > >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can > >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I > >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of >providing quality flight info. > >Sam Buchanan > > > > > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> Now that's scary! > > > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > > > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > > > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for >much > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a >similar > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > > teaching autopilot operation. > > > > Sam Buchanan > > > > =========================== > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > > >> IMC > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right >and > > the > >> other > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the >GRT > > EFIS > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad >EFIS. > >> > >> Russ Daves > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:05 PM PST US From: Tim Lewis Subject: RV-List: GRT Lockup Mike, Extraordinarily valuable email. Thanks for posting it! Tim -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > > As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl > vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One > said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis > screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. > Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You > cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not > agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA > wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency > firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not > like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a > software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, > but your don't get to choose your fail modes. > > Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked > up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but > doable. > > It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably > saved my butt. > > Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in > many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules > attitudes every time. > Mike > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> >> I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all >> available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you >> > had an > >> electrical fire? >> >> Bruce >> www.glasair.org >> > > This is a different question than the one you first posed. > > You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden > > one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're > turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" > > In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are > valid. > > But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an > electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly > and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds > of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I > will wad up the plane in a landing accident. > > What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can > > hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, > turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I > > think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds > can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical > flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of > providing quality flight info. > > Sam Buchanan > > >> >> Bruce Gray wrote: >> >>> Now that's scary! >>> >> If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a >> conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. >> >> It would have already been on since entering IMC. >> >> With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for >> > much > >> hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a >> > similar > >> position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on >> teaching autopilot operation. >> >> Sam Buchanan >> >> =========================== >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Bruce >>> www.glasair.org >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid >>> > > >>> IMC >>> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right >>> > and > >> the >> >>> other >>> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? >>> >>> >>> Bruce >>> www.glasair.org >>> >>> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the >>> > GRT > >> EFIS >> >>> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad >>> > EFIS. > >>> >>> Russ Daves >>> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 >>> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:51 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Fear not; we're just discussing ideas. Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first time. IMO, of course. -Bill B On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray wrote: > > Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > > > > Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss > something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for > backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three > sources of support vs one (elec). > Dick > > > At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > > > > > > >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl > >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One > >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis > >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. > >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You > >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not > >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA > >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency > >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not > >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a > >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, > >but your don't get to choose your fail modes. > > > >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked > >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but > >doable. > > > >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably > >saved my butt. > > > >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in > >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules > >attitudes every time. > >Mike > >Do not archive > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan > >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > > > > > >Bruce Gray wrote: > > > > > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you > >had an > > > electrical fire? > > > > > > Bruce > > > www.glasair.org > > > >This is a different question than the one you first posed. > > > >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden > > > >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're > >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" > > > >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are > >valid. > > > >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an > >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly > >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds > >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I > >will wad up the plane in a landing accident. > > > >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can > > > >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, > >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I > > > >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds > >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical > >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of > >providing quality flight info. > > > >Sam Buchanan > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > > >> Now that's scary! > > > > > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > > > > > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > > > > > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for > >much > > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a > >similar > > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > > > teaching autopilot operation. > > > > > > Sam Buchanan > > > > > > =========================== > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Bruce > > >> www.glasair.org > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > > > > >> IMC > > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right > >and > > > the > > >> other > > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > > >> > > >> > > >> Bruce > > >> www.glasair.org > > >> > > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the > >GRT > > > EFIS > > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad > >EFIS. > > >> > > >> Russ Daves > > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:45 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: GRT Lockup What's valuable is that he survived. There's many here who fly off into the clag with just an EFIS and a T&B. If that had happened to them, they would not be here. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Lewis Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: RV-List: GRT Lockup Mike, Extraordinarily valuable email. Thanks for posting it! Tim -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, but your don't get to choose your fail modes. Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but doable. It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably saved my butt. Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules attitudes every time. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Bruce Gray wrote: I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you had an electrical fire? Bruce www.glasair.org This is a different question than the one you first posed. You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are valid. But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I will wad up the plane in a landing accident. What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of providing quality flight info. Sam Buchanan Bruce Gray wrote: Now that's scary! If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. It would have already been on since entering IMC. With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for much hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a similar position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on teaching autopilot operation. Sam Buchanan =========================== Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? Bruce www.glasair.org You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the GRT EFIS and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad EFIS. Russ Daves N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:29 PM PST US From: Richard Seiders Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Granted. Of course vacuum systems can and do fail, but not likely at the same time should you lose electrical power in IMC or otherwise. Dick At 09:55 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > >Fear not; we're just discussing ideas. > >Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My >personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience >failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly >designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first >time. > >IMO, of course. > >-Bill B > >On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray wrote: >> >>Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here. >> >>Bruce >>www.glasair.org >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders >>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR >> >> >> >>Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss >>something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for >>backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three >>sources of support vs one (elec). >>Dick >> >> >>At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl >> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One >> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis >> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. >> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You >> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not >> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA >> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency >> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not >> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a >> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, >> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes. >> > >> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked >> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but >> >doable. >> > >> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably >> >saved my butt. >> > >> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in >> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules >> >attitudes every time. >> >Mike >> >Do not archive >> > >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR >> > >> > >> >Bruce Gray wrote: >> > > >> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all >> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you >> >had an >> > > electrical fire? >> > > >> > > Bruce >> > > www.glasair.org >> > >> >This is a different question than the one you first posed. >> > >> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden >> > >> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're >> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" >> > >> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are >> >valid. >> > >> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an >> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly >> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds >> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I >> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident. >> > >> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can >> > >> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, >> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I >> > >> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds >> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical >> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of >> >providing quality flight info. >> > >> >Sam Buchanan >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Bruce Gray wrote: >> > >> Now that's scary! >> > > >> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a >> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. >> > > >> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. >> > > >> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for >> >much >> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a >> >similar >> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on >> > > teaching autopilot operation. >> > > >> > > Sam Buchanan >> > > >> > > =========================== >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Bruce >> > >> www.glasair.org >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > > >> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid >> > >> > >> IMC >> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right >> >and >> > > the >> > >> other >> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Bruce >> > >> www.glasair.org >> > >> >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the >> >GRT >> > > EFIS >> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad >> >EFIS. >> > >> >> > >> Russ Daves >> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:33 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Dick, IF it's true that electrical systems fail less often than vacuum (and it may not be, but I believe it is), then it stands to reason that a second electrical system might be a better backup than a vacuum system, assuming independence of the two elec. systems. That being equal or better, the other advantages then come to the fore: economy, weight savings, perhaps ease of installation... Additionally, I'm looking at this question in light of the reliability and redundancy offered by a dual-EFIS dual-AHRS installation that cross-checks for errors every few mS, and instantly flags any conflict. My MEMS-gyro-based autopilot will tell me at a glance which EFIS/AHRS is bad and needs to be powered down for the rest of the flight. Such a system needs no vacuum backup, just a second source of electromotive force. ;-) I know of no way to have an electronic and a vacuum based system perform automatic, repetitive integrity cross-checks on each other, so I'm a convert to the new glass systems. To each his own. That's the "stream" you might be swimming against, that Bruce referred to. -Bill On 2/28/07, Richard Seiders wrote: > > Granted. Of course vacuum systems can and do fail, but not likely at > the same time should you lose electrical power in IMC or otherwise. > Dick > > > At 09:55 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > > > > >Fear not; we're just discussing ideas. > > > >Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My > >personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience > >failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly > >designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first > >time. > > > >IMO, of course. > > > >-Bill B > > > >On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray wrote: > >> > >>Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here. > >> > >>Bruce > >>www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders > >>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM > >>To: rv-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > >> > >> > >> > >>Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss > >>something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for > >>backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three > >>sources of support vs one (elec). > >>Dick > >> > >> > >>At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl > >> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One > >> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis > >> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. > >> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You > >> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not > >> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA > >> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency > >> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not > >> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a > >> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, > >> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes. > >> > > >> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked > >> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but > >> >doable. > >> > > >> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably > >> >saved my butt. > >> > > >> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in > >> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules > >> >attitudes every time. > >> >Mike > >> >Do not archive > >> > > >> > > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan > >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM > >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > >> > > >> > > >> >Bruce Gray wrote: > >> > > > >> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > >> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you > >> >had an > >> > > electrical fire? > >> > > > >> > > Bruce > >> > > www.glasair.org > >> > > >> >This is a different question than the one you first posed. > >> > > >> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden > >> > > >> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're > >> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" > >> > > >> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are > >> >valid. > >> > > >> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an > >> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly > >> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds > >> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I > >> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident. > >> > > >> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can > >> > > >> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, > >> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I > >> > > >> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds > >> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical > >> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of > >> >providing quality flight info. > >> > > >> >Sam Buchanan > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> > >> Now that's scary! > >> > > > >> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > >> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > >> > > > >> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > >> > > > >> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for > >> >much > >> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a > >> >similar > >> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > >> > > teaching autopilot operation. > >> > > > >> > > Sam Buchanan > >> > > > >> > > =========================== > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> > > > >> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > >> > > >> > >> IMC > >> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right > >> >and > >> > > the > >> > >> other > >> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the > >> >GRT > >> > > EFIS > >> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad > >> >EFIS. > >> > >> > >> > >> Russ Daves > >> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:02 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR At what level of the data stream are you going to cross check? Most I've seen only cross check the AHRS output. That still leaves all that questionable code up to the display screen. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR Dick, IF it's true that electrical systems fail less often than vacuum (and it may not be, but I believe it is), then it stands to reason that a second electrical system might be a better backup than a vacuum system, assuming independence of the two elec. systems. That being equal or better, the other advantages then come to the fore: economy, weight savings, perhaps ease of installation... Additionally, I'm looking at this question in light of the reliability and redundancy offered by a dual-EFIS dual-AHRS installation that cross-checks for errors every few mS, and instantly flags any conflict. My MEMS-gyro-based autopilot will tell me at a glance which EFIS/AHRS is bad and needs to be powered down for the rest of the flight. Such a system needs no vacuum backup, just a second source of electromotive force. ;-) I know of no way to have an electronic and a vacuum based system perform automatic, repetitive integrity cross-checks on each other, so I'm a convert to the new glass systems. To each his own. That's the "stream" you might be swimming against, that Bruce referred to. -Bill On 2/28/07, Richard Seiders wrote: > > Granted. Of course vacuum systems can and do fail, but not likely at > the same time should you lose electrical power in IMC or otherwise. > Dick > > > At 09:55 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > > > > >Fear not; we're just discussing ideas. > > > >Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My > >personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience > >failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly > >designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first > >time. > > > >IMO, of course. > > > >-Bill B > > > >On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray wrote: > >> > >>Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here. > >> > >>Bruce > >>www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders > >>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM > >>To: rv-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > >> > >> > >> > >>Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss > >>something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for > >>backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three > >>sources of support vs one (elec). > >>Dick > >> > >> > >>At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl > >> >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me. One > >> >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis > >> >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy. > >> >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You > >> >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not > >> >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA > >> >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency > >> >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not > >> >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a > >> >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank, > >> >but your don't get to choose your fail modes. > >> > > >> >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked > >> >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but > >> >doable. > >> > > >> >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's. Probably > >> >saved my butt. > >> > > >> >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in > >> >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules > >> >attitudes every time. > >> >Mike > >> >Do not archive > >> > > >> > > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan > >> >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM > >> >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR > >> > > >> > > >> >Bruce Gray wrote: > >> > > > >> > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all > >> > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you > >> >had an > >> > > electrical fire? > >> > > > >> > > Bruce > >> > > www.glasair.org > >> > > >> >This is a different question than the one you first posed. > >> > > >> >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden > >> > > >> >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're > >> >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?" > >> > > >> >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are > >> >valid. > >> > > >> >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an > >> >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly > >> >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds > >> >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I > >> >will wad up the plane in a landing accident. > >> > > >> >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they can > >> > > >> >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter, > >> >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency. I > >> > > >> >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds > >> >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical > >> >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of > >> >providing quality flight info. > >> > > >> >Sam Buchanan > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> > >> Now that's scary! > >> > > > >> > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a > >> > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot. > >> > > > >> > > It would have already been on since entering IMC. > >> > > > >> > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for > >> >much > >> > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a > >> >similar > >> > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on > >> > > teaching autopilot operation. > >> > > > >> > > Sam Buchanan > >> > > > >> > > =========================== > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> > > > >> > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid > >> > > >> > >> IMC > >> > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning right > >> >and > >> > > the > >> > >> other > >> > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> www.glasair.org > >> > >> > >> > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the > >> >GRT > >> > > EFIS > >> > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad > >> >EFIS. > >> > >> > >> > >> Russ Daves > >> > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.