Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 AM - Re: GRT Lockup (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
2. 05:26 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Bill Boyd)
3. 06:47 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Tim Bryan)
4. 08:20 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
5. 09:14 AM - Re: Glass for IFR (ronlee@pcisys.net)
6. 09:29 AM - Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR (Steve Eberhart)
7. 09:53 AM - Re: Glass for IFR (John Jessen)
8. 11:56 AM - Re: Glass for IFR (ronlee@pcisys.net)
9. 03:23 PM - Jacksonville law will be changed (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
10. 04:30 PM - Re: Jacksonville law will be changed (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
11. 05:27 PM - Re: Glass for IFR (jhnstniii@AOL.COM)
12. 11:36 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
13. 11:39 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Its very easy to get tunnel vision with an EFIS screen. With everything
you need to fly on one screen, and I mean everything, your scan goes
caput and you focus on everything on that one screen. There is a lot to
process and it sure gets comfortable staring at one screen. It takes
discipline to get off that screen and 'compare notes' so to speak with
the other efis. Not hard when your whiz banging along, but very hard
when your busy turning for the approach. I have to force myself to do
it. Ive had way more vacuum issues than EFIS ones. So far:-) No chance
in the foreseeable future of vacuum going in my plane.
And thanks to all you guys sending the off list messages.
Best,
Mike
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: GRT Lockup
What's valuable is that he survived. There's many here who fly off into
the clag with just an EFIS and a T&B. If that had happened to them, they
would not be here.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:49 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: GRT Lockup
Mike,
Extraordinarily valuable email. Thanks for posting it!
Tim
--
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs
RV-10 #40059 under construction
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
<mike.stewart@us.ibm.com> <mailto:mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC,
2000'agl
vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for
me. One
said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the
efis
screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the
discrepancy.
Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was
noticed. You
cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are
not
agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says
BMA
wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an
emergency
firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did
not
like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was
a
software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone
blank,
but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have
locked
up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun,
but
doable.
It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's.
Probably
saved my butt.
Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio
A/P in
many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most
ridicules
attitudes every time.
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
<mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bruce Gray wrote:
<Bruce@glasair.org> <mailto:Bruce@glasair.org>
I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload
and using all
available tools to do so. What would you do in your
airplane if you
had an
electrical fire?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
This is a different question than the one you first posed.
You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of
a sudden
one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says
you're
turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the
tie are
valid.
But you have now raised a different, unrelated question
concerning an
electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially
deadly
and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture
the odds
of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the
odds I
will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think
they can
hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed,
altimeter,
turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight
emergency. I
think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but
the odds
can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent
electrical
flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the
capability of
providing quality flight info.
Sam Buchanan
<sbuc@hiwaay.net> <mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bruce Gray wrote:
Now that's scary!
If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and
there was a
conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the
autopilot.
It would have already been on since entering IMC.
With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see
a need for
much
hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come
around to a
similar
position as it pertains to IFR training and their new
emphasis on
teaching autopilot operation.
Sam Buchanan
==
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're
flying along in solid
IMC
and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says
you're turning right
and
the
other
says you're turning left, on which one do
you bet your life?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
You immediately turn on your autopilot which is
independent of the
GRT
EFIS
and after the autopilot levels the airplane you
turn off the bad
EFIS.
Russ Daves
N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
That would be a good question to put to GRT. I have yet to purchase my system.
These posts, and even the thread title, could stand a little trimming.
On 3/1/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
>
> At what level of the data stream are you going to cross check? Most I've
> seen only cross check the AHRS output. That still leaves all that
> questionable code up to the display screen.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
**pages and pages snipped**
Message 3
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
I love all the whizzies we get these days but wouldn't be so sure about your
comment. My steam gauges have never rebooted, but my GX60 has done exactly
that a couple of times for unknown reasons. I would be pretty uncomfortable
if a single EFIS did this in the soup.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:55 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>
>
> Fear not; we're just discussing ideas.
>
> Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
> personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
> failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
> designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
> time.
>
> IMO, of course.
>
> -Bill B
>
> On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
> >
> > Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
> >
> > Bruce
> > www.glasair.org
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
> > something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system for
> > backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
> > sources of support vs one (elec).
> > Dick
> >
> >
> > At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
> >
> > ><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
> > >
> > >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC, 2000'agl
> > >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for me.
> One
> > >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
> > >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
> > >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed. You
> > >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are not
> > >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says BMA
> > >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an emergency
> > >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did not
> > >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
> > >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone blank,
> > >but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
> > >
> > >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have locked
> > >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
> > >doable.
> > >
> > >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's.
> Probably
> > >saved my butt.
> > >
> > >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio A/P in
> > >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most ridicules
> > >attitudes every time.
> > >Mike
> > >Do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> > >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> > >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
> > >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> > >
> > >
> > >Bruce Gray wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using all
> > > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if you
> > >had an
> > > > electrical fire?
> > > >
> > > > Bruce
> > > > www.glasair.org
> > >
> > >This is a different question than the one you first posed.
> > >
> > >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a
> sudden
> > >
> > >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're
> > >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
> > >
> > >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie are
> > >valid.
> > >
> > >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning an
> > >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially deadly
> > >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the odds
> > >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the odds I
> > >will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
> > >
> > >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think they
> can
> > >
> > >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed, altimeter,
> > >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight emergency.
> I
> > >
> > >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the odds
> > >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent electrical
> > >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability of
> > >providing quality flight info.
> > >
> > >Sam Buchanan
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bruce Gray wrote:
> > > >> Now that's scary!
> > > >
> > > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> > > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the autopilot.
> > > >
> > > > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> > > >
> > > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need for
> > >much
> > > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
> > >similar
> > > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis on
> > > > teaching autopilot operation.
> > > >
> > > > Sam Buchanan
> > > >
> > > > ===========================
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Bruce
> > > >> www.glasair.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in
> solid
> > >
> > > >> IMC
> > > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning
> right
> > >and
> > > > the
> > > >> other
> > > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your life?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Bruce
> > > >> www.glasair.org
> > > >>
> > > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of the
> > >GRT
> > > > EFIS
> > > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the bad
> > >EFIS.
> > > >>
> > > >> Russ Daves
> > > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
They may not have rebooted, but if they are vacuum pump driven it is
just a matter of time before they start to lean unexpectedly. I have had
a pump fail, and several people at the local field have been deep into
the soup and had them fail. Guess what they are all switching to
Electric backup systems, being certified planes they have less options,
but they are getting away from vacuum pumps and the unexpected failures
associated with them.
Redundant electrical systems, with redundant EFIS systems from different
manufactures are the way to go. In reviewing Mike's incident it becomes
clear that two EFIS, from two manufactures, and a GOOD Autopilot are the
way to go to get triple redundancy.
Just my .02
Dan
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
I love all the whizzies we get these days but wouldn't be so sure about
your
comment. My steam gauges have never rebooted, but my GX60 has done
exactly
that a couple of times for unknown reasons. I would be pretty
uncomfortable
if a single EFIS did this in the soup.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:55 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
>
>
> Fear not; we're just discussing ideas.
>
> Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
> personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
> failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
> designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
> time.
>
> IMO, of course.
>
> -Bill B
>
> On 2/28/07, Bruce Gray <Bruce@glasair.org> wrote:
> >
> > Keep your head down, we're realy swimming against the current here.
> >
> > Bruce
> > www.glasair.org
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Seiders
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 7:44 PM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> >
> >
<seiders@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > Mike, I am very re-assured by my Trio A/P when in IMC. Did I miss
> > something on all this chatter about EFIS? Why not a vacuum system
for
> > backup with a few steam gages? I like old school system of three
> > sources of support vs one (elec).
> > Dick
> >
> >
> > At 06:44 AM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
> >
> > ><mike.stewart@us.ibm.com>
> > >
> > >As a survivor of a dual efis (GRT & BMA), single lockup, IMC,
2000'agl
> > >vectors to final approach, it was the a/p that broke the tie for
me.
> One
> > >said left turn, one said right. My GRT locked up frozen on the efis
> > >screen in a turn. I was fortunate to have noticed the discrepancy.
> > >Disorientation set in in about 1 second as soon as it was noticed.
You
> > >cant imagine the immediate brain confusion when the 2 EFIS's are
not
> > >agreeing in a big way. Turn on the a/p and sort it out. A/p says
BMA
> > >wins, and thats what I flew to the runway. It resulted in an
emergency
> > >firmware update the following day by GRT. Turns out the EFIS did
not
> > >like a GPS approach with no assigned runway in the database. Was a
> > >software bug. Would have been easier if the screen had just gone
blank,
> > >but your don't get to choose your fail modes.
> > >
> > >Also as a side note, had I of had 2 GRT's, they both would have
locked
> > >up and I'd of been on A/P alone. That would not have been fun, but
> > >doable.
> > >
> > >It can happen. I was happy that day I chose 2 different EFIS's.
> Probably
> > >saved my butt.
> > >
> > >Also, as was asked earlier on this thread, I have tested my Trio
A/P in
> > >many unusual attitudes, and it will right me from the most
ridicules
> > >attitudes every time.
> > >Mike
> > >Do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> > >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Buchanan
> > >Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 4:33 PM
> > >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR
> > >
> > >
> > >Bruce Gray wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think the FAA emphasis is on reducing pilot workload and using
all
> > > > available tools to do so. What would you do in your airplane if
you
> > >had an
> > > > electrical fire?
> > > >
> > > > Bruce
> > > > www.glasair.org
> > >
> > >This is a different question than the one you first posed.
> > >
> > >You first asked "if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a
> sudden
> > >
> > >one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says
you're
> > >turning left, on which one do you bet your life?"
> > >
> > >In my opinion the replies about letting the autopilot break the tie
are
> > >valid.
> > >
> > >But you have now raised a different, unrelated question concerning
an
> > >electrical fire. Granted, ANY fire while airborne is potentially
deadly
> > >and one of our worse fears. But, with good wiring architecture the
odds
> > >of an electrical fire are very low, probably much lower than the
odds I
> > >will wad up the plane in a landing accident.
> > >
> > >What does concern me greatly, however, is how many pilots think
they
> can
> > >
> > >hand fly their RVs in the crud on partial panel (airspeed,
altimeter,
> > >turn coordinator) while being stressed out with an inflight
emergency.
> I
> > >
> > >think the chances of surviving that scenario are very low but the
odds
> > >can be greatly improved by providing redundant, independent
electrical
> > >flight instruments (EFIS, autopilot, etc) that have the capability
of
> > >providing quality flight info.
> > >
> > >Sam Buchanan
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bruce Gray wrote:
> > > >> Now that's scary!
> > > >
> > > > If I was flying in IMC with my dual-glass plane and there was a
> > > > conflict, I wouldn't have to worry about turning on the
autopilot.
> > > >
> > > > It would have already been on since entering IMC.
> > > >
> > > > With the new solid-state coupled autopilots, I don't see a need
for
> > >much
> > > > hand flying in IMC. Seems the FAA has *finally* come around to a
> > >similar
> > > > position as it pertains to IFR training and their new emphasis
on
> > > > teaching autopilot operation.
> > > >
> > > > Sam Buchanan
> > > >
> > > > ===========================
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Bruce
> > > >> www.glasair.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > >> Nice panel. I have a stupid question, if you're flying along in
> solid
> > >
> > > >> IMC
> > > >> and all of a sudden one of your EFIS says you're turning
> right
> > >and
> > > > the
> > > >> other
> > > >> says you're turning left, on which one do you bet your
life?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Bruce
> > > >> www.glasair.org
> > > >>
> > > >> You immediately turn on your autopilot which is independent of
the
> > >GRT
> > > > EFIS
> > > >> and after the autopilot levels the airplane you turn off the
bad
> > >EFIS.
> > > >>
> > > >> Russ Daves
> > > >> N710RV - First Flight 7/28/06
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFR |
> Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
> personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
> failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
> designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
> time.
>
> IMO, of course.
I just ordered a new vacuum pump. Failed after about 1000 hours.
Mike's post (thanks Mike) shows that coding for these EFIS systems
may be less than rigorous. We recently saw a forced landing in less
than ideal terrain apparently because of a software problem in a
experimental class mag system.
It seems that if you are really going to fly in IFR conditions then
you might want to go up with a safety pilot and see how well you do
if certain systems go south. Example, your only EFIS dies. Can you
safely fly and make an instrument approach using everything left
that is available to you?
It might be useful if suggested system components be identified that
provides adequate redundancy in the event of a major comnponent
failure. The groupings may be as follows:
1) EFIS, all electric
2) EFIS, vacuum
3) No EFIS, all electric
4) No EFIS, vacuum
I would fall into Group 4. Vacuum Horizon and DG, Typical airspeed,
altimeter, rate of climb plus electric T&B. Trio Ez-pilot autopilot.
Of course I have not finished my instrument rating. Signed off to
take the practical but need to fix the vacuum system.
Ron Lee
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFRGlass for IFR |
Looks like the Experimental EFIS suppliers aren't the only ones with
software problems. Our newest fighter, the F-22, suffered EFIS meltdown
when it crossed the international date line. They had to be led back to
Hawaii VFR by the KC-135 tanker that was accompanying them. Wonder how
my GRT EFIS Sport will behave when it crosses the International Date
Line :-)
he
Check out the article at:
http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=60af32fb-31c0-4162-b209-9bc791c5de0f&Dynamic=1
Steve Eberhart
RV-7A, starting to get serious about the panel
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> At what level of the data stream are you going to cross check? Most I've
> seen only cross check the AHRS output. That still leaves all that
> questionable code up to the display screen.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
Message 7
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Some certified's, at least the Columbia, are using two independent electric
systems. I would think the battery backup EFIS systems out there would also
qualify as independent. You could certainly go vacuum as backup. Nothing
wrong with that. Same as going EI on top and standard mag on the bottom.
The chance of an electric and a vacuum failure at the same time would be
minimal, I would venture. No matter what, one should, as suggested, get an
instructor and go fly in IMC with systems being taken off line in various
ways to see what it would be like and practice recovering, troubleshooting.
Nothing like practice.
John Jessen (and this thread is just great!)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ronlee@pcisys.net
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Glass for IFR
> Why not vacuum? Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind. My
> personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience
> failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly
> designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first
> time.
>
> IMO, of course.
I just ordered a new vacuum pump. Failed after about 1000 hours.
Mike's post (thanks Mike) shows that coding for these EFIS systems may be
less than rigorous. We recently saw a forced landing in less than ideal
terrain apparently because of a software problem in a experimental class mag
system.
It seems that if you are really going to fly in IFR conditions then you
might want to go up with a safety pilot and see how well you do if certain
systems go south. Example, your only EFIS dies. Can you safely fly and
make an instrument approach using everything left that is available to you?
It might be useful if suggested system components be identified that
provides adequate redundancy in the event of a major comnponent failure.
The groupings may be as follows:
1) EFIS, all electric
2) EFIS, vacuum
3) No EFIS, all electric
4) No EFIS, vacuum
I would fall into Group 4. Vacuum Horizon and DG, Typical airspeed,
altimeter, rate of climb plus electric T&B. Trio Ez-pilot autopilot.
Of course I have not finished my instrument rating. Signed off to take the
practical but need to fix the vacuum system.
Ron Lee
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No matter what, one should, as suggested, get an instructor and go fly
in IMC with systems being taken off line in various ways to see what it
would be like and practice recovering, troubleshooting.
> Nothing like practice.
>
Actually John, I would not go true IMC. Use foggles or other
devices. That way if you start to enter a spiral the instructor
can more easily recover or have you remove the foggles.
As someone mentioned, having an EFIS die with only a T&B (?) backup
available may be just a matter of time before you lose controlled
flight. Assumes no autopilot of course.
Ron Lee
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| Subject: | Jacksonville law will be changed |
http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/070228_jacksonville.html
do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: Jacksonville law will be changed |
Great News!!!!
Tom in Ohio RV6-A (10G)
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Jacksonville law will be changed
> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/070228_jacksonville.html
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Glass for IFR |
Have been following this post with interest. Our plan from the beginning was to
fly IFR. Here's what we did:
Vacuum attitude indicator
Backup electric attitude indicator
Vacuum DG
Electric T & B (S-Tec 30 with altitude hold)
Garmin 430
We plan to get a good Garmin handheld like the 496 and mount that, too, which can
give you a self-contained virtual panel on internal battery.
Plus, we plan to replace the vacuum pump and the alternator at regular intervals,
probably every 500 hours (yep, buy new ones).
So far we haven't flown any actual IFR because we are still flight testing.
Just our .02
LeRoy Johnston and David White - Ohio - RV-6 Esperanza 65 hours flying.
-----Original Message-----
From: ronlee@pcisys.net
Sent: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Glass for IFR
No matter what, one should, as suggested, get an instructor and go fly
in IMC with systems being taken off line in various ways to see what it
would be like and practice recovering, troubleshooting.
> Nothing like practice.
>
Actually John, I would not go true IMC. Use foggles or other
devices. That way if you start to enter a spiral the instructor
can more easily recover or have you remove the foggles.
As someone mentioned, having an EFIS die with only a T&B (?) backup
available may be just a matter of time before you lose controlled
flight. Assumes no autopilot of course.
Ron Lee
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| Subject: | Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains RV-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
rv-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "rv-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the RV-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the RV-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Official RV-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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RV-List Usage Guidelines
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The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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