Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:32 AM - Re: Vne dependent on TAS? (Bob)
2. 06:45 AM - 9A For Sale (Snow, Daniel A.)
3. 07:39 AM - Re: TAS and VNE (Glaeser, Dennis A)
4. 08:00 AM - TAS and Vne (Joe & Jan Connell)
5. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: TAS and VNE (LessDragProd@aol.com)
6. 10:58 AM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (Richard Sipp)
7. 12:30 PM - A internet view of TAS and VNE (Ed Anderson)
8. 12:55 PM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (Bob)
9. 04:31 PM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (Tedd McHenry)
10. 05:43 PM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (Terry Watson)
11. 06:03 PM - Electroair/Rose Ignition (Kyle Boatright)
12. 06:38 PM - Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition (Bob J.)
13. 06:47 PM - Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition (Bobby Hester)
14. 07:07 PM - Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition (Kyle Boatright)
15. 07:11 PM - Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition (Kyle Boatright)
16. 07:51 PM - Oshkosh RV BBQ (Bob Collins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Vne dependent on TAS? |
>I'm confused. Well, maybe not. If the discussion is based on
>'bigger engines', then I can see the basis for the
>discussion. However, VNE probably can't be attained in level flight
>...... even with a lot of extra HP, so the VNE/TAS discussion should
>die right there.
At 8000 feet max power available from an IO-360 180 HP, straight and
level, I have exceeded TAS Vne on my RV6. However my IAS was well below Vne.
Bob
RV6 "The Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 2
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I'm posting this for a friend with medical issues. Everyone at the
airport who watched him build this plane speaks highly of his meticulous
work.
2006
Aerosport O-320, 55 hrs.
Fixed pitch Sensenich
Dynon D10A
Garmin GPS/COM
Garmin GTX-320A transponder
I-K Technologies EIS
$110,000
Bruce Roberts
Pell City, AL
205-338-9618
Prism15@centurytel.net
Message 3
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I must respectfully disagree. Flutter and dynamic stability are vastly
different things. Flutter is NOT the trailing edge of a control surface
flapping in the breeze like a flag in high wind. Flutter is the some
portion of an airframe (wing, tail, fuselage) acting like a rubber band
due to forces in resonance with one or more of it's natural frequencies.
Since it is a frequency, not force, related phenomenon, that is why TAS
is key instead of IAS. At the right frequency, it only takes a small
force to start the process (think tuning fork).
The force that reacts to bring the airframe back after a disturbance is
the stiffness of the structure (again, like a tuning fork) not the
control surface. The reason for balancing controls is to minimize their
impact in increasing and/or maintaining the disturbing forces. Even a
wing without ailerons or flaps (a helicopter rotor blade for example)
can flutter. My first job was rotor blade design - I've seen wind
tunnel videos of it happening.
If you've never seen the bridge video mentioned in Ken's article - find
it and take a look. The Kruger article is accurate.
Dennis Glaeser
BSAE - building an RV-7A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Wheeler North
I also don't entirely agree with the Kruger article.
Flutter is not a function of velocity directly, it is a function of
force acting upon the components which may flutter. While the air
molecules are going by at a faster rate there are far less of them so
the resultant force doesn't nearly increase at the rate TAS does with
gains in altitude.
Flutter is properly called negative dynamic stability and it requires
positive static stability to occur. Positive static force pushes the
control back to its neutral condition. When it's coupled to inertia and
the resultant forces are able to move the control beyond that to a
position greater then the original upset than that is negative dynamic
stability AKA flutter. Mass aft of the pivot line adds to the inertia,
mass at or just fwd of it takes away from the inertia. However it is
force that causes the initial positive static desire to return to
neutral and beyond. And it doesn't change too much with changes in
altitude. If it did you would be able to notice it in the feel of the
stick as altitude changed.
This is one of the primary reasons we use VNE and all the other numbers
in indicated units.
W
Message 4
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Interesting comments on TAS, Vne, and flutter
Years ago when I was flying rescue helicopters for the Air Force,
a B-47 pilot and I had a discussion about TAS, Vne, and flutter.
A B-47 could operate high enough that the stall speed would
approach Vne. Too slow, the plane would stall -- too fast, the
plane would exceed Vne. If the B-47 stalled, it would exceed
Vne in recovery. The phenomena was called the "Coffin Corner..."
Message 5
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Hi All,
IMHO, the purposed of the RVator (and the same article in Kitplanes) is to
keep builder/pilots of RV's from killing themselves. Apparently there are a
number of RV-10's being built with engine installations that caused this to be
a very real concern to Van's Aircraft.
My thoughts:
There is no "design" flutter speed.
I have heard that the RV airframe structure is the least likely to flutter
first, because of its structural stiffness. It is expected that the flight
control surfaces would flutter first.
Inherent in this statement is the assumption that the airframe is built to
the design documentation.
The flutter speed of the flight controls is dependent on the control system
stiffness and rigging. Where loose fitting flight control surfaces and
control attachments will flutter at a lower airspeed. Inherent in this statement,
the manufacturer of the aircraft builds in a unique flutter speed for that
airframe.
The RVator (and Kitplanes) article does seem like a better way to provide a
warning about Vne and flutter speed, than to provide a fixed number for a
flutter speed that could lead to someone's death.
What I didn't like about the RVator article is the misleading statement Vne
being a TAS.
Part 23 defines Vne as an Equivalent Airspeed (EAS). This is a calibrated
and corrected Indicated Airspeed. If an aircraft is NOT designed to Part 23,
I suppose Vne could be defined anyway they want. :-)
Actually, an awareness of TAS is a very good thing. Especially with the GPS
readout of your ground speed. On a cruise climb in the direction of your
destination, you can monitor the TAS and the GPS ground speed. The difference
being your headwind, or tailwind. During your climb to your preferred cruise
altitude, you can calculate the actual headwind, or tailwind, at the
different altitudes. If you get to your preferred cruise altitude and find you
have
a greater headwind, or a lesser tailwind, than a lower altitude, you could
decide to descend back down to a more favorable altitude.
Jim Ayers
RV-3 sn 50
33 years of learning about RV's :-)
PS Van used to recommend that the RV-3 be flutter tested to 10% over Vne at
10,000' or higher. Vne being stated as an IAS! Some things do change. :-)
In a message dated 03/26/2007 6:41:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dennis.glaeser@eds.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
I must respectfully disagree. Flutter and dynamic stability are vastly
different things. Flutter is NOT the trailing edge of a control surface
flapping in the breeze like a flag in high wind. Flutter is the some
portion of an airframe (wing, tail, fuselage) acting like a rubber band
due to forces in resonance with one or more of it's natural frequencies.
Since it is a frequency, not force, related phenomenon, that is why TAS
is key instead of IAS. At the right frequency, it only takes a small
force to start the process (think tuning fork).
The force that reacts to bring the airframe back after a disturbance is
the stiffness of the structure (again, like a tuning fork) not the
control surface. The reason for balancing controls is to minimize their
impact in increasing and/or maintaining the disturbing forces. Even a
wing without ailerons or flaps (a helicopter rotor blade for example)
can flutter. My first job was rotor blade design - I've seen wind
tunnel videos of it happening.
If you've never seen the bridge video mentioned in Ken's article - find
it and take a look. The Kruger article is accurate.
Dennis Glaeser
BSAE - building an RV-7A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
There is also an article on the subject in the current Kitplanes
magazine, written by Ken Scott at Van's.
Dick Sipp
RV10 40065
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Maib
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 6:01 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Vne dependent on TAS?
Somebody on this forum recently mentioned finding a good article about
it in Vans Rvator publication. I am not sure how old it is or when it
was published.
David
Message 7
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| Subject: | A internet view of TAS and VNE |
Here is an explanation that appears to make it fairly clear as to why
TAS rather than IAS is the critical factor in flutter.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/flutter.html#flutter
Indicated airspeed really reflects dynamic pressure rather than airflow
velocity so if the structural limitations which define Vne for an
aircraft type are particularly associated with the distribution of
forces associated with velocity then the specified indicated Vne has to
be decreased as altitude is increased - to adjust for the increase in
true airspeed which latter is about 1.5% greater than IAS/CAS for every
1000 feet of altitude, see rule of thumb #2.
13.3 Aerodynamic reactions to flight at excessive speed
Flutter
Wing structures are akin to a 'tuning fork' extending from the fuselage.
When a tuning fork is tapped the fork vibrates at a particular
frequency, the stiffer the structure the higher its 'natural' frequency.
The natural frequency of a wing or tailplane structure may apply another
limiting airspeed to flight operations - related to structural
instabilities: flutter and wing divergence.
When the airflow around a wing or control surface is disturbed by
aerodynamic reactions or pilot inputs, the structure's elastic reactions
may combine as an oscillation or vibration of the structure (possibly
evident as a buzz in the airframe) which will quickly damp itself out at
normal cruise speeds. At some higher speed - the critical flutter speed
- where the oscillations are in phase with the natural frequency of the
structure the oscillations will not damp out but will resonate, rapidly
increasing in amplitude. (Pushing a child on a swing is an example of
phase relationships and amplification). This condition is flutter and,
unless airspeed is very quickly reduced, the severe vibrations will
cause control surface [or other] separation within a very few seconds.
The following paragraph is an extract from an article by William P.
Rodden appearing in the McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Science and
Technology; it provides a succinct description of flutter:
"Flutter (aeronautics) - An aeroelastic self-excited vibration with a
sustained or divergent amplitude, which occurs when a structure is
placed in a flow of sufficiently high velocity. Flutter is an
instability that can be extremely violent. At low speeds, in the
presence of an airstream, the vibration modes of an aircraft are stable;
that is, if the aircraft is disturbed, the ensuing motion will be
damped. At higher speeds, the effect of the airstream is to couple two
or more vibration modes such that the vibrating structure will extract
energy from the airstream. The coupled vibration modes will remain
stable as long as the extracted energy is dissipated by the internal
damping or friction of the structure. However a critical speed is
reached when the extracted energy equals the amount of energy that the
structure is capable of dissipating, and a neutrally stable vibration
will persist. This is called the flutter speed. At a higher speed, the
vibration amplitude will diverge, and a structural failure will result."
Inertia has a role in flutter development requiring that control
surfaces - ailerons, elevators, rudder - be mass balanced (i.e. the
centre of gravity of the control surface coincides with the hinge line)
to limit the mass moment of inertia. It may be acceptable for the
control surface to be over-balanced, i.e. the cg is slightly forward of
the hinge line. Mass balancing of the control surfaces will prevent them
fluttering but the possibility for wing [for example] flexing/twisting
flutter may still exist.
The critical flutter airspeed [or something akin to it] may eventuate
well below Vne if wear in control surface hinges, slop in actuating
rods/cables/cranks/torque tubes, water or ice inside control surfaces or
absorbed within a foam core, mud outside, faulty trim tabs, additional
surface coatings applied after balancing or other system disturbances
exist which alter the structure's reactions.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 10:34 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: TAS and VNE
<dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
>
> I must respectfully disagree. Flutter and dynamic stability are
vastly
> different things. Flutter is NOT the trailing edge of a control
surface
> flapping in the breeze like a flag in high wind. Flutter is the some
> portion of an airframe (wing, tail, fuselage) acting like a rubber
band
> due to forces in resonance with one or more of it's natural
frequencies.
> Since it is a frequency, not force, related phenomenon, that is why
TAS
> is key instead of IAS. At the right frequency, it only takes a small
> force to start the process (think tuning fork).
> The force that reacts to bring the airframe back after a disturbance
is
> the stiffness of the structure (again, like a tuning fork) not the
> control surface. The reason for balancing controls is to minimize
their
> impact in increasing and/or maintaining the disturbing forces. Even a
> wing without ailerons or flaps (a helicopter rotor blade for example)
> can flutter. My first job was rotor blade design - I've seen wind
> tunnel videos of it happening.
> If you've never seen the bridge video mentioned in Ken's article -
find
> it and take a look. The Kruger article is accurate.
>
> Dennis Glaeser
> BSAE - building an RV-7A
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Wheeler North
> I also don't entirely agree with the Kruger article.
>
> Flutter is not a function of velocity directly, it is a function of
> force acting upon the components which may flutter. While the air
> molecules are going by at a faster rate there are far less of them so
> the resultant force doesn't nearly increase at the rate TAS does with
> gains in altitude.
>
> Flutter is properly called negative dynamic stability and it requires
> positive static stability to occur. Positive static force pushes the
> control back to its neutral condition. When it's coupled to inertia
and
> the resultant forces are able to move the control beyond that to a
> position greater then the original upset than that is negative dynamic
> stability AKA flutter. Mass aft of the pivot line adds to the inertia,
> mass at or just fwd of it takes away from the inertia. However it is
> force that causes the initial positive static desire to return to
> neutral and beyond. And it doesn't change too much with changes in
> altitude. If it did you would be able to notice it in the feel of the
> stick as altitude changed.
>
> This is one of the primary reasons we use VNE and all the other
numbers
> in indicated units.
>
> W
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
><http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf>http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
>
One of the articles talks about those who wish to put a 180 HP engine
in an RV9 (a non aerobatic airplane that would probably fly
reasonably well with a Rotax 912). This reminds me of the movie "Tin
Cup" when Kevin Costner is bragging how he parred the back nine
using a 7 iron? And Don Johnson replied, that he never considered
doing such a thing and why would anyone do it?
But, then again, I have been dreaming of hanging a 180 HP on my hang
glider. I don't know, but I guess I could do at least 4X Vne if
total catastrophic failure does not happen first!
BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach
number? If not, maybe we as a group can come up with one?
Bob
RV6 "The Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
> BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach
> number?
Breaking the flutter barrier?
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
Ted, somehow that doesn't seem quite macho enough.
> BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach
> number?
Breaking the flutter barrier?
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Electroair/Rose Ignition |
One option with the Electroair Ignition, used to be a small rectangular
display which showed the number of degrees of advance where the ignition
was firing. Unfortunately, my display has a wiring problem inside the
display and I don't think I have a very good chance of repairing it,
although I will try.
No problem, right? Just buy another one... Well, not so fast. They
don't sell that unit anymore - apparently, the supplier dried up. So if
I can't repair mine, I'm stuck with an oddball hole in my panel (about
1" x 2"). Due to the location of the hole, there really isn't much I can
do with the space.
This isn't an operational problem (the system works just fine without
the digital readout), but it is an aesthetic problem and I *want* to
know how the EI is operating...
Anyway, this leads me to ask:
1) Does anyone have contact information for Jeff Rose? I know he isn't
the front man for the business anymore, and may have sold it entirely,
but he's been very helpful in the past and might have some insight. The
folks currently running Electro didn't have any helpful suggestions when
I spoke with them on the phone.
2) Does anyone have an "advance display" they would sell? I'm in the
market if the price is reasonable.
Thanks,
KB
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition |
Kyle, any panel mounted voltmeter will do...this is the one I used:
http://www.marteltesttools.com/products.php?cat=114&action=detail&id=73
This might be a bit smaller than the one you had, but if you look around
there are many sizes these sorts of voltmeters come in.
IIRC 10mV = 1 degree advance, you set up the scaling with a resistor network
(two resistors which the instructions for the meter specify.) There are a
series of jumpers on the back to set it up so there's no decimal point
displayed. So, with a voltmeter if it reads .01V, that means 1 degree
advance, 0.20V means 20 degrees advance, etc. With the divider network and
the jumpers set up correctly, it the display would show 1 and 20
respectively.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On 3/26/07, Kyle Boatright <kboatright1@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> One option with the Electroair Ignition, used to be a small rectangular
> display which showed the number of degrees of advance where the ignition was
> firing. Unfortunately, my display has a wiring problem inside the display
> and I don't think I have a very good chance of repairing it, although I will
> try.
>
> No problem, right? Just buy another one... Well, not so fast. They don't
> sell that unit anymore - apparently, the supplier dried up. So if I can't
> repair mine, I'm stuck with an oddball hole in my panel (about 1" x 2"). Due
> to the location of the hole, there really isn't much I can do with the
> space.
>
> This isn't an operational problem (the system works just fine without the
> digital readout), but it is an aesthetic problem and I *want* to know how
> the EI is operating...
>
> Anyway, this leads me to ask:
>
> 1) Does anyone have contact information for Jeff Rose? I know he isn't
> the front man for the business anymore, and may have sold it entirely, but
> he's been very helpful in the past and might have some insight. The folks
> currently running Electro didn't have any helpful suggestions when I spoke
> with them on the phone.
>
> 2) Does anyone have an "advance display" they would sell? I'm in the
> market if the price is reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
>
> KB
>
> *
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> *
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition |
Would it be the same as what Lightspeed offers?
The Simpson digital panel meter
http://www.lsecorp.com/Products/Accessories.htm
Surfing the web with my laptop from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my RV7A website: http://webpages.charter.net/bobbyhester/MyFlyingRV7A.htm
Kyle Boatright wrote:
> One option with the Electroair Ignition, used to be a small
> rectangular display which showed the number of degrees of advance
> where the ignition was firing. Unfortunately, my display has a wiring
> problem inside the display and I don't think I have a very good chance
> of repairing it, although I will try.
>
> No problem, right? Just buy another one... Well, not so fast. They
> don't sell that unit anymore - apparently, the supplier dried up. So
> if I can't repair mine, I'm stuck with an oddball hole in my panel
> (about 1" x 2"). Due to the location of the hole, there really isn't
> much I can do with the space.
>
> This isn't an operational problem (the system works just fine without
> the digital readout), but it is an aesthetic problem and I *want* to
> know how the EI is operating...
>
> Anyway, this leads me to ask:
>
> 1) Does anyone have contact information for Jeff Rose? I know he
> isn't the front man for the business anymore, and may have sold it
> entirely, but he's been very helpful in the past and might have some
> insight. The folks currently running Electro didn't have any helpful
> suggestions when I spoke with them on the phone.
>
> 2) Does anyone have an "advance display" they would sell? I'm in the
> market if the price is reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
>
> KB
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition |
Nope, different unit. Spendy too. ;-(
But thanks for the suggestion.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobby Hester
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Electroair/Rose Ignition
Would it be the same as what Lightspeed offers?
The Simpson digital panel meter
http://www.lsecorp.com/Products/Accessories.htm
Surfing the web with my laptop from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my RV7A website:
http://webpages.charter.net/bobbyhester/MyFlyingRV7A.htm
Kyle Boatright wrote:
One option with the Electroair Ignition, used to be a small
rectangular display which showed the number of degrees of advance where
the ignition was firing. Unfortunately, my display has a wiring problem
inside the display and I don't think I have a very good chance of
repairing it, although I will try.
No problem, right? Just buy another one... Well, not so fast. They
don't sell that unit anymore - apparently, the supplier dried up. So if
I can't repair mine, I'm stuck with an oddball hole in my panel (about
1" x 2"). Due to the location of the hole, there really isn't much I can
do with the space.
This isn't an operational problem (the system works just fine
without the digital readout), but it is an aesthetic problem and I
*want* to know how the EI is operating...
Anyway, this leads me to ask:
1) Does anyone have contact information for Jeff Rose? I know he
isn't the front man for the business anymore, and may have sold it
entirely, but he's been very helpful in the past and might have some
insight. The folks currently running Electro didn't have any helpful
suggestions when I spoke with them on the phone.
2) Does anyone have an "advance display" they would sell? I'm in
the market if the price is reasonable.
Thanks,
KB
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Electroair/Rose Ignition |
It looks as if one of the voltmeters on the link Bob provided just might
work. Sure, it may take a custom mount and a bit of fiddling with
capacitors and dip switches, but the wife is out of town next weekend so
I may need something to do to keep me out of trouble... ;-)
Kyle
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob J.
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Electroair/Rose Ignition
Kyle, any panel mounted voltmeter will do...this is the one I used:
http://www.marteltesttools.com/products.php?cat=114&action=detail&id=
73
This might be a bit smaller than the one you had, but if you look
around there are many sizes these sorts of voltmeters come in.
IIRC 10mV = 1 degree advance, you set up the scaling with a resistor
network (two resistors which the instructions for the meter specify.)
There are a series of jumpers on the back to set it up so there's no
decimal point displayed. So, with a voltmeter if it reads .01V, that
means 1 degree advance, 0.20V means 20 degrees advance, etc. With the
divider network and the jumpers set up correctly, it the display would
show 1 and 20 respectively.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
On 3/26/07, Kyle Boatright <kboatright1@comcast.net> wrote:
One option with the Electroair Ignition, used to be a small
rectangular display which showed the number of degrees of advance where
the ignition was firing. Unfortunately, my display has a wiring problem
inside the display and I don't think I have a very good chance of
repairing it, although I will try.
No problem, right? Just buy another one... Well, not so fast. They
don't sell that unit anymore - apparently, the supplier dried up. So if
I can't repair mine, I'm stuck with an oddball hole in my panel (about
1" x 2"). Due to the location of the hole, there really isn't much I can
do with the space.
This isn't an operational problem (the system works just fine
without the digital readout), but it is an aesthetic problem and I
*want* to know how the EI is operating...
Anyway, this leads me to ask:
1) Does anyone have contact information for Jeff Rose? I know he
isn't the front man for the business anymore, and may have sold it
entirely, but he's been very helpful in the past and might have some
insight. The folks currently running Electro didn't have any helpful
suggestions when I spoke with them on the phone.
2) Does anyone have an "advance display" they would sell? I'm in
the market if the price is reasonable.
Thanks,
KB
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
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So last night I had this dream. We had the annual RV BBQ in Oshkosh, and nobody
came. I figure I had this dream because so far, only one person has registered
for this year's BBQ.
We're trying to solve some of the "traffic" problems from last year's bbq (when
about 150 people we weren't expecting showed up), by having people register in
advance.
So far that hasn't worked so well. Not because people haven't registered -- I know
how people are -- but because it's clear to me that if we do it this way (rather
than just have people 'loosely' say they're coming or not and then worrying
about it on Wednesday night), people are going to wait until the last minute
to register.
The problem with that I'm mailing stuff out this year and there's no way I can
get it done if people wait until the last minute
So, if you're interested in attending this year. It would be great if you'd go ahead and register now. You can do so here (http://home.comcast.net/~bcollinsrv7a/eaa/).
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103138#103138
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