Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:25 AM - Re: Re: TAS and VNE (Chris W)
2. 06:09 AM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI)
3. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: TAS and VNE (rtitsworth)
4. 06:54 AM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (Bill Boyd)
5. 07:06 AM - Re: Re:Vne dependent on TAS? (n801bh@netzero.com)
6. 07:26 AM - Re: Vne dependent on TAS? (Jekyll)
7. 07:49 AM - head start to rotary powered RV( for sale) (jbker@juno.com)
8. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: TAS and VNE (lessdragprod@aol.com)
9. 05:07 PM - Re: Vne dependent on TAS? (glen matejcek)
Message 1
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LessDragProd@aol.com wrote:
> What I didn't like about the RVator article is the misleading
> statement Vne being a TAS.
> Part 23 defines Vne as an Equivalent Airspeed (EAS). This is a
> calibrated and corrected Indicated Airspeed. If an aircraft is NOT
> designed to Part 23, I suppose Vne could be defined anyway they want. :-)
I can't see anything misleading about it. The article clearly states
that Fluter is a function of TAS, and therefor Vne should also be a TAS
number. The article then went on to offer a very plausible explanation
on why part 23 didn't use TAS for Vne. Further the article gave
empirical evidence as to the fact the TAS, and not IAS or CAS, is the
value that is critical to flutter. So what is misleading?
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
Vp maybe ? Pieces Velocity.
Neal George
RV-7 N8ZG
Cowling
Ted, somehow that doesn't seem quite macho enough.
> BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach number?
Breaking the flutter barrier?
do not archive
Message 3
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What can be misleading is "assuming" that critical flutter speed (TAS based)
is quantitatively related to a published Vne speed.
Vne could be based on a structural deformation safety margin (dynamic
pressure / IAS related). The critical flutter speed for a given aircraft
design could be much higher (some are, some aren't). It's a design
parameter that is typically related to the intended operating altitude
(envelope).
Without "knowing" your critical flutter speed (TAS based), you're at a loss
for really understanding your operating envelope. The safe/conservative
assumption then is that TAS must remain below the published Vne.
However, TAS only = IAS at STP (sea level). At every altitude above that,
TAS is > IAS (approx 15% per 10k ft). Thus, if you assume that TAS must
remain below Vne, then your IAS must remain below Vne at ANY altitude
(unless you're in the pattern at death valley). That may be more
conservative than necessary (depending on the aircraft). It also implies
that the pilot must continuously convert IAS to TAS (EFIS, E6B, placard
chart, or SWAG).
The real key is "knowing" the critical flutter speed (TAS) versus "guessing"
it's the same (or near) the published Vne.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris W
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:24 AM
I can't see anything misleading about it. The article clearly states
that Fluter is a function of TAS, and therefor Vne should also be a TAS
number. The article then went on to offer a very plausible explanation
on why part 23 didn't use TAS for Vne. Further the article gave
empirical evidence as to the fact the TAS, and not IAS or CAS, is the
value that is critical to flutter. So what is misleading?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
Vkg: Kiss-your-airframe-Goodbye velocity
On 3/26/07, Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
>
> > BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach
> > number?
>
> Breaking the flutter barrier?
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re:Vne dependent on TAS? |
I am proposing flutterbye.
When we flew our new kitplanes for the first time we all had "butterflie
s" in our stomach. Now, if we dare to explore the realms of flutter the
results will be instantly obvious, once it starts to flutter you can say
"bye bye'... :()
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mi
l> wrote:
<Neal.George@Hurlburt.AF.MIL>
Vp maybe ? Pieces Velocity.
Neal George
RV-7 N8ZG
Cowling
Ted, somehow that doesn't seem quite macho enough.
> BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach number?
Breaking the flutter barrier?
do not archive
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P>I am proposing flutterbye.</P>
<P>When we flew our new kitplanes for the first time we all had "butterf
lies" in our stomach. Now, if we dare to explore the realms of flutter t
he results will be instantly obvious, once it starts to flutter you
can say "bye bye'... :()</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "George, Neal E Capt MIL US
AF 605TES/TSI" <Neal.George@hurlburt.af.mil> wrote:
<BR>--> RV-List message posted by: "George,&
nbsp;Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" <
Neal.George@Hurlburt.AF.MIL><BR><BR> <BR>Vp maybe ?&nb
sp; Pieces Velocity. <BR><BR>Neal George<BR>RV-7&nbs
p;N8ZG<BR>Cowling<BR><BR>--> RV-List message posted&nb
sp;by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com><BR><BR>T
ed, somehow that doesn't seem quite macho&
nbsp;enough. <BR><BR>--> RV-List message posted&n
bsp;by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org><BR><BR
>> BTW, is there a term for exceed
ing Vne, sort of like the Mach number
?<BR><BR>Breaking the flutter barrier?<BR><BR>do not
========================
========================
- The RV-List Email Fo
;List utilities such as the Subscriptions
========================
========================
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FO
========================
========================
======</P>
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Vne dependent on TAS? |
Don't know a term for the event but I have one for the pilot that breaches the
"barrier": Flutter Nutter.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103192#103192
Message 7
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| Subject: | head start to rotary powered RV( for sale) |
Sorry about the commercial, but believe this is the best spot to get a<?
xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:offi
ce" />
plug in for my engine package! You can get a great headstart on building
a rotary powered RV and save a bundle of money.
Have decided to part my 9A out and build a LSA since medicals or getting
tougher as 70 is upon me. Am currently waiting on my special issuance t
o arrive and will not plan on filing for a 3rd class next year.
Will sell the rotary and am installing a lycoming in the 9A before selli
ng it.
Do not wish to have the double jeopardy of an alternative engine and
homebuilt combination if I sell it with the rotary.
The engine installation has had minimum problems once I got past a fault
y DPDT switch that was apparently backfeeding 12 volts to electronic con
trol and burning the chip which operates off of 5 volts. Flew the 40 hou
rs off in minimum time and have about 20 hours on it since.
Fuel burn is equivalent to a lycoming if leaned which the flight report
in Sport Aviation alludes to. That controller does not allow for leaning
.
I have over $12K invested and many educational hours involved. Will sell
it for $8K. The gear reduction and electronic controller are built by
Tracy Crook at RWS inc, the engine is a street ported 13B built by Bruce
Turrentine, the engine mount is by Fred Breese, and the prop is a Sense
nich. You get the nose gear leg, dual electronic fuel pumps, intake and
exhaust manifolds, muffler, radiator (Griffen custom aluminum), oil cool
er, Sam James cowl, and many more items.
The rotary is coming to SnF so you can see the package there, just call
my cell at 772 708 0093 to see it. Email me at <?xml:namespace prefix =
st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />jbker@juno.co
m to see some pictures of installation.
Bernie Kerr, 6A 450 hours and sold, 9A rotary with 60 hours
<html><P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style=
"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Sorry about
the commercial, but believe this is the best spot to get a<?xml:namespac
e prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><
/o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">plug in for my e
ngine package! You can get a great headstart on building a rotary powere
d RV and save a bundle of money.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Have decided to
part my 9A out and build a LSA since medicals or getting tougher as 70 i
s upon me. Am currently waiting on my special issuance to arrive and wil
l not plan on filing for a 3rd class next year.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P
>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Will sell the ro
tary and am installing a lycoming in the 9A before selling it.<o:p></o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Do not wish to h
ave the double jeopardy of an alternative engine and<o:p></o:p></SPAN></
B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">homebuilt combin
ation if I sell it with the rotary.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">The engine insta
llation has had minimum problems once I got past a faulty DPDT switch th
at was apparently backfeeding 12 volts to electronic control and burning
the chip which operates off of 5 volts. Flew the 40 hours off in minimu
m time and have about 20 hours on it since. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Fuel burn is equ
ivalent to a lycoming if leaned which the flight report in Sport Aviatio
n alludes to. That controller does not allow for leaning.<o:p></o:p></SP
AN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">I have over $12K
invested and many educational hours involved. Will sell it for $8K.<SPA
N style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The gear reduction and elect
ronic controller are built by Tracy Crook at RWS inc, the engine is a st
reet ported 13B built by Bruce Turrentine, the engine mount is by Fred B
reese, and the prop is a Sensenich. You get the nose gear leg, dual elec
tronic fuel pumps, intake and exhaust manifolds, muffler, radiator (Grif
fen custom aluminum), oil cooler, Sam James cowl, and many more items.<o
:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">The rotary is co
ming to SnF so you can see the package there, just call my cell at 772 7
08 0093 to see it. Email me at <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "ur
n:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PersonName w:st="on">
jbker@juno.com</st1:PersonName> to see some pictures of installation.<o:
p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p> </o:p
></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="FON
T-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Bernie Kerr, 6A
450 hours and sold, 9A rotary with 60 hours<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P>
<P> </P>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 8
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Nicely stated.
Jim Ayers
-----Original Message-----
From: rtitsworth@mindspring.com
Sent: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 6:47 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: TAS and VNE
What can be misleading is "assuming" that critical flutter speed (TAS based)
is quantitatively related to a published Vne speed.
Vne could be based on a structural deformation safety margin (dynamic
pressure / IAS related). The critical flutter speed for a given aircraft
design could be much higher (some are, some aren't). It's a design
parameter that is typically related to the intended operating altitude
(envelope).
Without "knowing" your critical flutter speed (TAS based), you're at a loss
for really understanding your operating envelope. The safe/conservative
assumption then is that TAS must remain below the published Vne.
However, TAS only = IAS at STP (sea level). At every altitude above that,
TAS is > IAS (approx 15% per 10k ft). Thus, if you assume that TAS must
remain below Vne, then your IAS must remain below Vne at ANY altitude
(unless you're in the pattern at death valley). That may be more
conservative than necessary (depending on the aircraft). It also implies
that the pilot must continuously convert IAS to TAS (EFIS, E6B, placard
chart, or SWAG).
The real key is "knowing" the critical flutter speed (TAS) versus "guessing"
it's the same (or near) the published Vne.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris W
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 4:24 AM
I can't see anything misleading about it. The article clearly states
that Fluter is a function of TAS, and therefor Vne should also be a TAS
number. The article then went on to offer a very plausible explanation
on why part 23 didn't use TAS for Vne. Further the article gave
empirical evidence as to the fact the TAS, and not IAS or CAS, is the
value that is critical to flutter. So what is misleading?
________________________________________________________________________
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: Vne dependent on TAS? |
Hi Terry-
How's this one: Warrantee void speed? Or, Speed Of Imminent Destruction?
>Ted, somehow that doesn't seem quite macho enough.
>> BTW, is there a term for exceeding Vne, sort of like the Mach
>> number?
>Breaking the flutter barrier?
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
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