Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:12 AM - Purge valve return line (Michael D. Cencula)
2. 03:12 AM - Left Elevator - rivets don't fit (Bruce Swayze)
3. 04:55 AM - Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit (Rick Galati)
4. 05:57 AM - Purge valve return line (James H Nelson)
5. 06:18 AM - Re: Purge valve return line (Dan Checkoway)
6. 06:46 AM - GX 60 rebooting (Tim Bryan)
7. 07:21 AM - Re: GX 60 rebooting (Dan Checkoway)
8. 07:33 AM - Re: GX 60 rebooting (Ralph E. Capen)
9. 07:34 AM - Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit (Vince-Himsl)
10. 07:38 AM - Re: GX 60 rebooting (Ralph E. Capen)
11. 07:53 AM - Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit (Dave Nellis)
12. 09:03 AM - Re: TAS and VNE (glen matejcek)
13. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: TAS and VNE (Ernie & Margo)
14. 10:18 AM - Re: GX 60 rebooting (Tim Bryan)
15. 10:18 AM - Re: TAS and Vne & Flutter at Altitude (LessDragProd@aol.com)
16. 11:10 AM - Left Elevator - rivets don't fit (Bruce Swayze)
17. 11:38 AM - Skytech starter for sale (jbker@juno.com)
18. 12:41 PM - Re: Vne dependent on TAS? ()
19. 01:47 PM - Re: Digitrak Op Manual? (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
20. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: TAS and VNE (Richard Seiders)
21. 04:07 PM - Vent line thru F-902 RV-9A (jlfernan)
22. 05:46 PM - AFP Purge Valve Cable Connection (Mike Kraus)
23. 06:45 PM - Re: AFP Purge Valve Cable Connection (Larry Rosen)
24. 07:19 PM - Re: Vent line thru F-902 RV-9A (T.C. Chang)
25. 08:30 PM - Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit (Michael D. Cencula)
26. 08:43 PM - Re: Purge valve return line (Michael D. Cencula)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Purge valve return line |
Listers,
Hopefully you guys with an AFP system can help out. :-)
I'm planning on installing an IO-360 in my -7A (eventually...sigh) and may
consider using one of the AFP systems. I've heard it's beneficial to install
return lines to the tanks (getting ready to rivet them up), but I've got a
few questions:
1. How is an AFP system with return lines connected up?
2. Does it matter where the return line should be located as it runs back into
the tank (top / bottom)?
3. Is there anything else I need to be aware of during the build phase in
order to ease installation of an AFP system?
Thanks,
Mike Cencula
Message 2
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| Subject: | Left Elevator - rivets don't fit |
Hi Everybody,
I'm working on the left elevator for my RV-7A, and I ran into a
frustrating problem with some of the blind rivets required. There are
4 blind rivets on the top and 4 on the bottom of the skin, that hold
the skin to the outboard end of the E-606PP Trim Spar. This is the
aft spar on the elevator that carries the trim tab, and these are the
rivets forward and to the left of the little tabs that you bend over
on the skin surfaces. The rivets called for are MK-319-BS blind
rivets. They have brass-colored shafts. I tried every one of the
rivets included with my empennage kit, and none of them will fit in a
#40 dimpled hole. I tried a #30 hole in a piece of scrap, and it's
way too big. Nothing about this is mentioned on the drawings or in
the plans. All the other holes in this part are #40, and the standard
AN326AD3-3.5 rivets fit just fine. Am I missing something? Did I get
a bum batch of pop rivets? Or do I drill out the holes a little bit
bigger? If so, what size? I'm wondering if anyone else ran into this. Thanks.
Bruce Swayze
RV-7A Empennage
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit |
Bruce;
Most pulled or blind rivets by their very nature are not as strong as solid rivets.
To give them all the help they can get blind rivets should be inserted
into a prepared holes that are very close to their diameter.
You ran into a typical situation that is easily resolved by investing in a cheap
digital micrometer and a drill index chart. Enclosed is a copy of my favorite
chart. I find I refer to both tools often for one task or another. If
you measured the MK-319-BS, you would find it mics out at approximately .110-.111
in diameter. The dimpling operation opened up the material just a bit. Therefore
the correct drill to accept a MK-319-BS is 7/64."
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla!"
RV-8 Fuselage
[QUOTE]The rivets called for are MK-319-BS blind
rivets. They have brass-colored shafts. I tried every one of the
rivets included with my empennage kit, and none of them will fit in a
#40 dimpled hole. I tried a #30 hole in a piece of scrap, and it's
way too big. Nothing about this is mentioned on the drawings or in
the plans. All the other holes in this part are #40, and the standard
AN326AD3-3.5 rivets fit just fine. Am I missing something?[/QUOTE]
Message 4
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| Subject: | Purge valve return line |
Mike,
I have the purge system in my IO-360. I ran my return line back
to the feed line on the right tank before the selector valve. This way
any returning fuel will go to the right tank. However, if I knew what I
know now, I would have run the return line to the tank. Reason? any
vapor / bubbles would go into the tank and be vented. Recirculating the
hot fuel back into the line prior to the valve lets it cool before I use
it. Thus, I think it will be fine. Just a matter of degrees.
I ran my return line back along side the feed lines. This way I
could secure them together. Run the feed lines with smooth bends. I had
to shorten the line from the fire wall to the engine pump. I also put a
45 deg. fitting on the inlet to the pump. This way the feed line makes a
"single plane" (geometric) turn. Other wise the hose must turn upward
and then 90 deg to the center of the fuselage to get to the fuel pump. A
45 deg fitting at the inlet will not impede the fuel on the suction side.
Putting a 90 deg on the outlet is no problem as it is under pressure.
My outlet line (that goes down to the air meter) was fitted with a 45
deg. fitting that attached to the "T" fitting on the outlet of the engine
pump. the lower end of the line had a 90 deg. fitting where it attaches
to the air meter. The 45 deg. up at the fuel pump allowed the line to
avoid the tri gear bracing. You can check these out at my web site
www.websites.expercraft.com/jimn
Jim Nelson
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Purge valve return line |
http://www.rvproject.com/20030516.html
http://www.rvproject.com/20030519.html
Some photos from those and other pages on my site (www.rvproject.com).
Ignore the arrows, they're probably other stuff, but the photos show where I
put the purge return fitting on the firewall and how I plumbed it.
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030516_afp_purge_tee.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030518_keeper_rivets.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030518_heat_box_mounted.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030518_view_inside.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030519_tee_installed.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030519_snap_bushing_and_tubing.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030519_tubing_to_firewall.jpg
http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030522_fuel_line_installed.jpg
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1238 hours)
www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com / www.weighmyplane.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D. Cencula" <matronics@cencula.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:11 AM
Subject: RV-List: Purge valve return line
> <matronics@cencula.com>
>
> Listers,
>
> Hopefully you guys with an AFP system can help out. :-)
>
> I'm planning on installing an IO-360 in my -7A (eventually...sigh) and may
> consider using one of the AFP systems. I've heard it's beneficial to
> install
> return lines to the tanks (getting ready to rivet them up), but I've got a
> few questions:
>
> 1. How is an AFP system with return lines connected up?
> 2. Does it matter where the return line should be located as it runs back
> into
> the tank (top / bottom)?
> 3. Is there anything else I need to be aware of during the build phase in
> order to ease installation of an AFP system?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Cencula
>
>
>
Message 6
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I am having a problem with my gps rebooting with no apparent reason. I am
getting ready to call Garmin to see what they have to say, but wonder if
anybody else has had a similar situation. On my last fly day I put in just
over 4 hours with 5 landings. The gps restarted 4 times.
Thanks
Tim
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: GX 60 rebooting |
Tim,
My GX60 had the exact same issue at first. Turned out to be a defective
data card! My advice would be...try another card before you bother sending
it in.
Off-list, I'm going to send you the email I sent to John Stark when I first
had this problem (3 years ago). It may sound very familiar... ;-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (1238 hours)
www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:46 AM
Subject: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
>
>
> I am having a problem with my gps rebooting with no apparent reason. I am
> getting ready to call Garmin to see what they have to say, but wonder if
> anybody else has had a similar situation. On my last fly day I put in
> just
> over 4 hours with 5 landings. The gps restarted 4 times.
> Thanks
> Tim
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: GX 60 rebooting |
I'll be following this because I have one too...
Not flying yet - so I haven't had the opportunity to experience what you've seen.
I did need to have the software upgraded and the battery replaced though......
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim Bryan <n616tb@btsapps.com>
>Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:46 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
>
>
>
>I am having a problem with my gps rebooting with no apparent reason. I am
>getting ready to call Garmin to see what they have to say, but wonder if
>anybody else has had a similar situation. On my last fly day I put in just
>over 4 hours with 5 landings. The gps restarted 4 times.
>Thanks
>Tim
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Left Elevator - rivets don't fit |
I use 7/64, #33 or #34 (mostly #34). Start out small and progress to larger.
Skin thickness, dimpling, etc. make a difference. The #40(many prefer a #41)
and #30 are for standard rivets. The blind 'Pop' rivets are thicker.
You will find a drill bit gauge (flat plate with holes in it) for numbered
bits to be most useful. With the gauge you can put the pop rivet (screws,
pins, etc.) in each of the holes to find the right bit. Saves a lot of time!
It is even quicker than walking the extra five feet to my builders log to
search for the page where I wrote down the drill bit size the last time I
needed it.
Also get a chart that shows all the drill bits, both numbered and fractional
together so you understand relationship say between a 1/8th and a #30.
7/64" = .1094
#35 = .1100
#34 = .1110
#33 = .1130
#32 = .1160
#31 = .1200
1/8" = .1250
#30 = .1285
#29 = .1360
You might want to pick up drill bit #'s 11, 12, 19, 21, 27, 29, 'D', 33, 34,
35, 36, and 37. They're for bolts, screws, other...Can't remember all the
reasons, but I have them and they look well used.
When I first started, pop rivets were to be avoided at all cost. Now, pop
rivets are my friends. Lost track of dings caused trying to avoid using
them.
Regards,
Vince H.
RV8 - VSB finish
Moscow, ID
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Swayze
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 3:11 AM
Subject: RV-List: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit
Hi Everybody,
I'm working on the left elevator for my RV-7A, and I ran into a
frustrating problem with some of the blind rivets required. There are
4 blind rivets on the top and 4 on the bottom of the skin, that hold
the skin to the outboard end of the E-606PP Trim Spar. This is the
aft spar on the elevator that carries the trim tab, and these are the
rivets forward and to the left of the little tabs that you bend over
on the skin surfaces. The rivets called for are MK-319-BS blind
rivets. They have brass-colored shafts. I tried every one of the
rivets included with my empennage kit, and none of them will fit in a
#40 dimpled hole. I tried a #30 hole in a piece of scrap, and it's
way too big. Nothing about this is mentioned on the drawings or in
the plans. All the other holes in this part are #40, and the standard
AN326AD3-3.5 rivets fit just fine. Am I missing something? Did I get
a bum batch of pop rivets? Or do I drill out the holes a little bit
bigger? If so, what size? I'm wondering if anyone else ran into this.
Thanks.
Bruce Swayze
RV-7A Empennage
--
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: GX 60 rebooting |
Good hint Dan - I had to get spare datacards because of the Jepp load size.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Checkoway <dan@rvproject.com>
>Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:18 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
>
>
>Tim,
>
>My GX60 had the exact same issue at first. Turned out to be a defective
>data card! My advice would be...try another card before you bother sending
>it in.
>
>Off-list, I'm going to send you the email I sent to John Stark when I first
>had this problem (3 years ago). It may sound very familiar... ;-)
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D (1238 hours)
>www.rvproject.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:46 AM
>Subject: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am having a problem with my gps rebooting with no apparent reason. I am
>> getting ready to call Garmin to see what they have to say, but wonder if
>> anybody else has had a similar situation. On my last fly day I put in
>> just
>> over 4 hours with 5 landings. The gps restarted 4 times.
>> Thanks
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit |
My guess is that you have the wrong rivet. I just
looked at my elevator and found an aluminum rivet and
a steel pin. The rivet I ended using there is a
MK319BS.
Dave
--- Bruce Swayze <swayze@europa.com> wrote:
> <swayze@europa.com>
>
> Hi Everybody,
> I'm working on the left elevator for my RV-7A, and I
> ran into a
> frustrating problem with some of the blind rivets
> required. There are
> 4 blind rivets on the top and 4 on the bottom of the
> skin, that hold
> the skin to the outboard end of the E-606PP Trim
> Spar. This is the
> aft spar on the elevator that carries the trim tab,
> and these are the
> rivets forward and to the left of the little tabs
> that you bend over
> on the skin surfaces. The rivets called for are
> MK-319-BS blind
> rivets. They have brass-colored shafts. I tried
> every one of the
> rivets included with my empennage kit, and none of
> them will fit in a
> #40 dimpled hole. I tried a #30 hole in a piece of
> scrap, and it's
> way too big. Nothing about this is mentioned on the
> drawings or in
> the plans. All the other holes in this part are #40,
> and the standard
> AN326AD3-3.5 rivets fit just fine. Am I missing
> something? Did I get
> a bum batch of pop rivets? Or do I drill out the
> holes a little bit
> bigger? If so, what size? I'm wondering if anyone
> else ran into this. Thanks.
>
> Bruce Swayze
> RV-7A Empennage
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
Message 12
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Hi Rob et al-
While it's true that Vne is published in IAS, there are some mitigators
that we need to keep in mind. First, the roots of the certification rules
go back to a simpler time. This leads to an airspeed indicator, not a TAS
indicator, being req'd to be installed by the regs and V speeds being IAS.
These speeds are guaranteed accurate only when operating at SL and ISA.
Some speeds, such as indicated stall speeds, by their nature continue to be
accurate with a change in altitude. However, that particular data point
has nothing to do with the certification process. Likewise, the fact that
many of us can read TAS directly off of our panels has nothing to do with
the process or intent of determining Vne.
Another point is that our planes might just have a flutter onset speed in
the many hundreds of knots. It could well be that at any max altitude an
RV might reasonably be expected to operate, the flutter margin decreases
from 200 to 100 knots. Then again, high alt ops at published indicated Vne
could make the margin negative. We just don't know, although the Flyin'
Tiger would lead me to suspect that this is never going to be a real
concern for a properly built and maintained RV.
To make an extreme illustration, if we were to operate an RV-8 at it's
published Vne of 200 KIAS in a standard atmosphere at, say, 67,000 feet
(Plz don't ask how we got there- it's still in development...) we would be
at the published Vne limit. We would also be slightly in excess of Mach 1.
Now, I don't have any personal experience to draw upon here, but I'm
guessing something bad would happen to the plane and, by extension, it's
occupants. Clearly, operating at Vne at SL is okay, so there is going to
be some transition altitude where it ceases to be okay.
The most important point to be taken from all this is that we don't know
what the limiting factor is under any given set of conditions, only that
Van's has published a value for Vne at SL ISA. It is logical to assume
that there is a good pad built into that number, but we have no idea what
that pad is, what the "real" Vne could be, or how it is affected by
conditions. Hence, anyone exceeding those published limits is truly
playing test pilot and should proceed with proper respect for the potential
outcome.
FWIW-
>On 9:50 2007-03-28 Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com> wrote:
>> Each of these bad things will have its own envelope of airspeed,
>> altitude, temperature, etc that you must remain clear of. The
>> aircraft designer will specify a VNE that remains clear of all these
>> bad things.
>
>You forgot to add... That Vne will be expressed as an INDICATED airspeed.
>
>-Rob
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 13
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Kevin & the List: Please note Van's ASI has the RED line on the IAS scale
(doesn't move).
I have the Vans-supplied ASI. The fixed face shows Knots and Miles. The
instrument has an adjusting knob which rotates a "disk" behind the face.
The window at the top of the disk has a scale which rotates. This causes the
window at the bottom of the disk to offset the fixed speed scale on the
face. SO, you would adjust the top window to align the altitude factor (5
for 5,000) opposite the fixed scale for temperature (+30 to -30). Look at
the needle - the fixed "black" scale shows IAS, the "white" disk shows TAS.
Spoken without my plane here so I burned some brain cells trying to think
this through.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
> Is the red line on the Vans-supplied ASI on the IAS scale, or the TAS
> scale?
>
> Kevin
>
> On 28 Mar 2007, at 19:47, Richard Seiders wrote:
>
>>
>> Kevin, my 6A is equipped with an airspeed indicator that has ability to
>> determine TAS by setting the temp/alt in window provided. I purchased it
>> from Van's when building my RV.
>> Dick
>>
Message 14
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Agreed, I am going to pursue getting a bigger new card also.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:38 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
>
>
> Good hint Dan - I had to get spare datacards because of the Jepp load
> size.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Dan Checkoway <dan@rvproject.com>
> >Sent: Mar 29, 2007 10:18 AM
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
> >
> >
> >Tim,
> >
> >My GX60 had the exact same issue at first. Turned out to be a defective
> >data card! My advice would be...try another card before you bother
> sending
> >it in.
> >
> >Off-list, I'm going to send you the email I sent to John Stark when I
> first
> >had this problem (3 years ago). It may sound very familiar... ;-)
> >
> >)_( Dan
> >RV-7 N714D (1238 hours)
> >www.rvproject.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:46 AM
> >Subject: RV-List: GX 60 rebooting
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I am having a problem with my gps rebooting with no apparent reason. I
> am
> >> getting ready to call Garmin to see what they have to say, but wonder
> if
> >> anybody else has had a similar situation. On my last fly day I put in
> >> just
> >> over 4 hours with 5 landings. The gps restarted 4 times.
> >> Thanks
> >> Tim
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: TAS and Vne & Flutter at Altitude |
I was told that the MU-2 has an airspeed indicator that shows the critical
airspeed for that flight altitude. The critical airspeed is shown as a moving
(red?) line on the IAS indicator.
Another method I've heard of using is an indicated airspeed to a fairly low
altitude like 10,000' and a limiting Mach number above that altitude.
Part 23 identifies a maximum operating airspeed (Vmo) and a maximum
operating Mach number (Mmo) as airspeed limits. Where Vmo is an IAS? And Mmo
as a
fixed Mach number is a varying TAS? (Mach 1 being about 760 knots TAS at sea
level to about 660 knots TAS at 35,000?)
The RMI Microencoder in my RV-3 can provide a Mach number readout. I
haven't tried it, but if I remember correctly, I can input a set point for an
audio
alarm and/or flashing display to the Mach number.
BTW, I estimated a limiting Mach number of about 0.26 for 230 mph TAS at
10,000'. Anyone have a better number?
The Dynon D-10 & D-10A provides a TAS readout when their OAT is used. I
understand that there is no provision at this time for an alarm on the TAS.
Anyone have information on their flight system and the ability to set an
alarm on TAS or Mach number?
Regards,
Jim Ayers
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Left Elevator - rivets don't fit |
Thanks, everyone, for your input and help.What a great resource this
list is! I learn something every day.
Do not archive
--
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| Subject: | Skytech starter for sale |
A friend ask me to post this note to list.
149 tooth skytech starter almost new. $200
Call Rob Kermanj, 772 460 3709
<html><P>A friend ask me to post this note to list.</P>
<P>149 tooth skytech starter almost new. $200 </P>
<P>Call Rob Kermanj, 772 460 3709</P>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Vne dependent on TAS? |
Small planes have a ONE SIZE (Speed) FITS ALL, Vne, since we don't fly very high
our flutter margin does not change much and there is some FAT to use or cover
our butts, in theory, BUT getting near or into the TEENS, watch out diving at
indicated Vne speed.
As long as the flutter margin has enough FAT in it, it can handle all operational
altitudes. However FLY high in any GA plane to its MAX Service ceiling, say
at min weight and dive to Vne, you might be playing with fire.
Larry's glider analogy is a case where at normal lower altitudes, the one Vne
fits all works. IT WORKS and simplifies the pilots work load while maintaining
safety. However because gliders can really fly high (in the 20's or 30's or
higher) they need a correction to Vne as they climb to high altitudes, most likely
for flutter margin or protection.
Some say we should have an indication all the time in our RV's. Well Jets have
that. They have a moving Vne/Vmo indicator. Light planes don't fly high enough,
so there is a sufficient sea level flutter margin to handle the higher altitudes
it can fly, But add a turbo engine you may have a problem.
IN JETS, they have a MACH / TRUE AIRSPEED indicator. The Vne is a poll actually
moves in flight. Behind that moving Vne / Vmo limit is an air data computer.
If you want to have one limit SPEED you would use MACH number.
M = TAS/Speed of sound = Speed of Object thru medium (TAS) / Speed of sound (in
medium)
"The speed of sound in air depends pretty much solely on the temperature of the
air: the colder the air, the slower the speed of sound. Air gets steadily colder
with altitude, thus the higher you go, the slower the speed of sound. That
means without going any faster, an airplane gets closer to the speed of sound
as it gets higher. It's sort of like you get closer to the speed limit as you
drive towards town, not because you're accelerating, but because the speed
limit decreases towards your speed".
Jets use both indicated and MACH speed indicators. At lower altitudes its indicated
kts. It changes over from measuring speed in Knots to MACH at 20,000 to
25,000 feet. Above +20,000 we fly by Mach and have limits based on Mach speed.
Usually in the 0.82-0.86M range.
However you can feel "high speed" buffet if you push the Vne at altitude. Buffet
is not really flutter but unstable airflow over the control surfaces as it
approaches supersonic speeds.
Strangely STALL SPEED (TAS) goes up with altitude. So you have to fly faster
and faster (TAS) to avoid stall! But you also have to lower your max speed due
to flutter. YOU CAN SEE THEM COMING TOGETHER!
Jets fly so high they can get both High Speed Buffet and Stall at the same time!
This is called the coffin corner. Most commercial jets have Ceilings of about
39,000-45,000 feet. Some of the top of the line bizz jets have higher service
ceilings.
Again Vne is a moving target as you climb FOR ALL PLANES. Like Jets, little planes
lose flutter margin as they climb into less dense air, but since we rarely
climb above say 18,000 feet, ONE SIZE FITS ALL.. As long as there a conservative
Vne and flutter margins to cover it, a single Vne is all that is needed
for most normally aspirated planes.
As was pointed out Vne is not necessarily a flutter margin, it is most likely
a structural limit. It is harder to break the plane at altitude because there
is less air pressure and stall is more likely before load factor is an issue.
On the other stability, control and flutter take over at altitude. If you take
it to an extreme (space) at some point the wings and control surfaces do nothing.
We can make our own Vne card. (Assume Vne=210 mph IAS sea level)
At 10,000 feet TAS to indicated is about 12% (Vne 187 IAS)
At 16,000 feet TAS to indicated is about 27%. (Vne 165 IAS)
(super conservative but it works)
Once you get to 10,000 feet to 12,000 feet you are starting to get into your
flutter margin by flying INDICATED speed Vne. For example diving at 210 mph at
16,000 feet gives you 262 mph, or 52 mph over Vne.
Practically speaking MOST RV'er I know fly in the 8,000-12,500 feet range. I
have some high flying O2 sucking buddies that fly in the teens, but its less common.
Bottom line flutter is REAL and not to be messed with. In the RVator a RV-4 pilot
(who also was a fighter pilot) was flying real high, say low teens, and dove
to get under a cloud deck. Well his airspeed was below Vne (indicated). He
felt flutter in the elevator and slowed down. When he got on the ground and calculated
the TAS he was like +40 mph above Vne (TAS) I recall. He felt the elevator
flutter. Thanks to a good design and strength he was able to slow and stabilize
the plane. He found his planes limit. Because RV's are home made and
every elevator and counter weight is different you can bet so will flutter speed
be different.
RV's have been turned into 260hp clip wing "Harmon Rockets" and fly 240-250 mph
tas all the time. I would say GOOD for us 4-banger RV drivers, we know there
is some margin since they planes are basically the same, but we EAT that margin
when we climb. Once you get mid teens, WATCH IT. Harmon guys need to really
watch it since they can fly higher and faster with the higher HP.
A new Harmon Rocket and new pilot to flying it was lost in California recently
in turbulent conditions. It came down I recall in some pieces. You can imagine
flying fast in turbulence well above what the original RV Vne might be a recipe
for disaster.
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Digitrak Op Manual? |
Thanks Dale & Richard,
Yes it was the "Flash" deal as one of you mentioned. Thanks mucho, PDF
received.
Jerry C.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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It's on the IAS scale. That is the indicator I am using most of the
time. I use the TAS scale only when flying at or above 4000msl.
Dick
At 08:56 PM 3/28/2007, you wrote:
>
>Is the red line on the Vans-supplied ASI on the IAS scale, or the TAS
>scale?
>
>Kevin
>
>On 28 Mar 2007, at 19:47, Richard Seiders wrote:
>
>>
>>Kevin, my 6A is equipped with an airspeed indicator that has
>>ability to determine TAS by setting the temp/alt in window
>>provided. I purchased it from Van's when building my RV.
>>Dick
>>
>>
>>At 04:52 PM 3/28/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On 28 Mar 2007, at 13:18, Rob Prior wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 9:50 2007-03-28 Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com> wrote:
>>>>>Each of these bad things will have its own envelope of airspeed,
>>>>>altitude, temperature, etc that you must remain clear of. The
>>>>>aircraft designer will specify a VNE that remains clear of all
>>>>>these
>>>>>bad things.
>>>>
>>>>You forgot to add... That Vne will be expressed as an INDICATED
>>>>airspeed.
>>>
>>>Not necessarily, but it should be expressed in some way such that the
>>>pilot has an indicator in the cockpit that he can use to comply with
>>>the limitation. Yes, in type certificated aircraft the only
>>>indicator that the pilot has is an airspeed indicator, that reads in
>>>IAS. Some other aircraft have max allowable speeds that are
>>>expressed as indicated mach number at high altitudes. The SR-71 has
>>>a max allowable speed that is expressed as EAS.
>>>
>>>There is no point in providing a limitation if the pilot has no means
>>>at his disposal to comply with the limitation. The last time I
>>>checked Van didn't require that RVs be equipped with air data
>>>computers that provide a true airspeed indication. I have no idea
>>>how Van's expects pilots to comply with a VNE in TAS.
>>>
>>>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>>>Ottawa, Canada
>>>http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>>>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Vent line thru F-902 RV-9A |
I'm having trouble picturing where to drill the hole thru the F-902 for the AN
fitting for the fuel vent line. I'm building a quickbuild and there is no pilot
hole and all the rivet holes are filled. If someone could post a photo it could
make my life easier.
--------
Jorge Fernandez
N214JL Reserved
9A QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103768#103768
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| Subject: | AFP Purge Valve Cable Connection |
I have a few ideas on how to route and connect the Airflow Performance
Purge Valve cable but were wondering how others hooked it up? Does
anyone have any pictures of the attachment of the purge valve cable to
the valve?
Thanks
-Mike
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: AFP Purge Valve Cable Connection |
I would also be interested in how and where they penetrated the firewall.
Larry
#356
Mike Kraus wrote:
> I have a few ideas on how to route and connect the Airflow Performance
> Purge Valve cable but were wondering how others hooked it up? Does
> anyone have any pictures of the attachment of the purge valve cable to
> the valve?
>
> Thanks
> -Mike
> *
>
>
> *
Message 24
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| Subject: | Vent line thru F-902 RV-9A |
Jorge,
You may find a picture at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/tc1234c/Engine/photo#5047521864364184754
I don't remember that the exact location is critical.
Ted
------------------------------------------
T.C. Chang
http://tc1234c.googlepages.com/
tc1234c@roadrunner.com
RV-9A, Lycoming (ECI) O320-D2A, 160 hp, Carb, Dual Mag, Sensenich FP
GRT dual DU H1, TT DigiFlight II VSGV, 130 Hobbs 3/25/2007
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jlfernan
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: RV-List: Vent line thru F-902 RV-9A
I'm having trouble picturing where to drill the hole thru the F-902 for the
AN fitting for the fuel vent line. I'm building a quickbuild and there is no
pilot hole and all the rivet holes are filled. If someone could post a photo
it could make my life easier.
--------
Jorge Fernandez
N214JL Reserved
9A QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=103768#103768
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Left Elevator - rivets don't fit |
Here's a picture of the correct rivet to use.:
http://www.our7a.com/20061007.html
Others are correct, the holes need drilled out to 7/64.
Mike
On Thursday March 29 2007 06:10 am, Bruce Swayze wrote:
>
> Hi Everybody,
> I'm working on the left elevator for my RV-7A, and I ran into a
> frustrating problem with some of the blind rivets required. There are
> 4 blind rivets on the top and 4 on the bottom of the skin, that hold
> the skin to the outboard end of the E-606PP Trim Spar. This is the
> aft spar on the elevator that carries the trim tab, and these are the
> rivets forward and to the left of the little tabs that you bend over
> on the skin surfaces. The rivets called for are MK-319-BS blind
> rivets. They have brass-colored shafts. I tried every one of the
> rivets included with my empennage kit, and none of them will fit in a
> #40 dimpled hole. I tried a #30 hole in a piece of scrap, and it's
> way too big. Nothing about this is mentioned on the drawings or in
> the plans. All the other holes in this part are #40, and the standard
> AN326AD3-3.5 rivets fit just fine. Am I missing something? Did I get
> a bum batch of pop rivets? Or do I drill out the holes a little bit
> bigger? If so, what size? I'm wondering if anyone else ran into this.
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce Swayze
> RV-7A Empennage
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Purge valve return line |
Thanks, Dan. I had actually already read you site (great site) prior to
making my posting. Your statement of:
"Had I known I would be installing the system from the get-go I would have
installed return lines all the way into the tanks."
from http://www.rvproject.com/20030519.html is what got me thinking about
this. I looked at the scanned AFP manual on your site, but neither of the
two system drawings show dedicated return lines going back to the tanks
(unless I'm misreading them). Hence, question #1. The drawing on page 7 of
that .pdf seems to be your setup.
I could just pop an extra fitting in the cover plate of the tank, but should
it be at the bottom, or near the top? If I end up not using it, I suppose I
could just cap it off.
Mike
On Thursday March 29 2007 09:15 am, Dan Checkoway wrote:
>
> http://www.rvproject.com/20030516.html
> http://www.rvproject.com/20030519.html
>
> Some photos from those and other pages on my site (www.rvproject.com).
> Ignore the arrows, they're probably other stuff, but the photos show where
> I put the purge return fitting on the firewall and how I plumbed it.
>
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030516_afp_purge_tee.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030518_keeper_rivets.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030518_heat_box_mounted.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030518_view_inside.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030519_tee_installed.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030519_snap_bushing_and_tubing.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030519_tubing_to_firewall.jpg
> http://rvimg.com/images/2003/20030522_fuel_line_installed.jpg
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (1238 hours)
> www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com / www.weighmyplane.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael D. Cencula" <matronics@cencula.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:11 AM
> Subject: RV-List: Purge valve return line
>
> > <matronics@cencula.com>
> >
> > Listers,
> >
> > Hopefully you guys with an AFP system can help out. :-)
> >
> > I'm planning on installing an IO-360 in my -7A (eventually...sigh) and
> > may consider using one of the AFP systems. I've heard it's beneficial to
> > install
> > return lines to the tanks (getting ready to rivet them up), but I've got
> > a few questions:
> >
> > 1. How is an AFP system with return lines connected up?
> > 2. Does it matter where the return line should be located as it runs back
> > into
> > the tank (top / bottom)?
> > 3. Is there anything else I need to be aware of during the build phase in
> > order to ease installation of an AFP system?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike Cencula
>
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