Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Re: TAS and Vne (SCOTT SPENCER)
2. 06:00 AM - New RV Rudder build video DVD (Jon Croke)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: envelopes and gauges, was TAS and Vne & Flutter at Altitude (glen matejcek)
4. 07:16 AM - Tom Green (Joe Radford)
5. 08:39 AM - Re: Tom Green (Tim Olson)
6. 08:57 AM - Palmetto Wing RV Fly In next Saturday April 7 (Patty Hamilton)
7. 12:36 PM - Re: Tom Green (ptrotter@optonline.net)
8. 01:12 PM - Re: Purge valve return line (Dan Checkoway)
9. 06:39 PM - Re: Tom Green (Frank Stringham)
Message 1
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>>>>I was told that the MU-2 has an airspeed indicator that shows the critical
airspeed for that flight altitude. The critical airspeed is shown as a
moving
(red?) line on the IAS indicator.
<<<
Ain't just the MU-2... as also stated by another lister, ALL jets I know of,
and most of the faster turboprops have the Vne marking on the airspeed indicator
expressed as a *moving needle* (that the airspeed needle can still pass over
-don't ask me how I know) commonly called a 'barber pole', because it's typically
painted red and white like, well... a barber pole. ;) It changes position
with altitude/air density to reflect the Vne (indicated) at the present situation.
Just for an example...
Yesterday, like most days I fly it, I was sitting in the Gulfstream at altitude
seeing the airspeed 'bumping the pole' as they say, at M.80 ( i.e. we were
*at* Vne) and the indicated airspeed (and the barber pole) was somewhere in the
lower 200's. Our true was around 430 knots or so according to the ADC. We were
at FL390 as I recall... sounds about right anyway.
If we had gone higher or lower the numbers would have been different... to an
absolute limitation for this aircraft (GIIB) of M.85 at high altitude or 367
KCAS at low altitude. That's why the need for a 'moving redline'/barber pole
So you can tell all your friends that the Vne on a Gulfstream bizjet is at around
230KIAS (give or take) in cruise flight... and blow their minds... but of
course that number only applies at around 40,000 feet or so... on certain days.
Some restrictions apply. Void where prohibited.
And yes, flutter is real. And it's an aero-elasticity/natural-frequency sort
of thing as stated by some already... and it can kill you as stated by many. And
Vans knows what they are talking about.
Scott
N4ZW
Message 2
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| Subject: | New RV Rudder build video DVD |
For those of you who might want to get a friend interested in RV
building... HomebuiltHELP is announcing the release of a new
instructional video DVD: RV Rudder Workshop. As you might imagine, it
is for the beginner, demonstrating the use of tools, riveting, and then
assembling an RV7 rudder from start to finish. This topic has been done
before on video, but this one has a more polished presentation and
attention to practical details.
Info available at http://homebuilthelp.com/RVRudder.htm
Thank you!
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: envelopes and gauges, was TAS and Vne & Flutter at Altitude |
The following is non-RV related techno-mumbo-jumbo, so go ahead and delete
now rather than scolding later if one isn't interested....
Hi Jim-
>I was told that the MU-2 has an airspeed indicator that shows the critical
>airspeed for that flight altitude. The critical airspeed is shown as a
moving
> (red?) line on the IAS indicator.
The Vmo/Mmo pointer on such an airspeed indicator moves so as to respect
whatever the pertinent limit is, be it V or M. The pointer has diagonal
red and white stripes to differentiate it from a conventional fixed red
line, and is referred to as a "barber pole" in common parlance.
>Another method I've heard of using is an indicated airspeed to a fairly
low
>altitude like 10,000' and a limiting Mach number above that altitude.
>
>Part 23 identifies a maximum operating airspeed (Vmo) and a maximum
>operating Mach number (Mmo) as airspeed limits. Where Vmo is an IAS? And
Mmo
>as a
>fixed Mach number is a varying TAS? (Mach 1 being about 760 knots TAS at
sea
>level to about 660 knots TAS at 35,000?)
Consider a graph of altitude (vert axis) vs IAS (horiz axis). We plot the
various airspeed limits on the graph to build an airspeed envelope. First,
we make a vertical line at Vs. Next we make another vertical line at Vne.
These two lines along with the zero alt line make up three side of our
airspeed operating envelope. Last we have Mmo, or max operating Mach.
Recall that Mach (the speed of sound) is dependant upon air temperature,
with higher temps yielding a higher speed of sound. If we were to plot
Mach on our graph, it would be a line that started out high on the left
(higher alt and lower speed) and angled down towards the right (lower
altitude and higher speed). If our limiting Mach is less than 1, it will
be represented by a line below the Mach line and with a lesser slope than
the Mach line. The crossover altitude where the Vne and Mmo lines meet
(upper right corner of the graph) is the altitude where the barber pole
starts to move towards a lower value. In the case of a turboprop with a
lower Mmo, that will be a relatively lower altitude, perhaps the low teens.
In the case of the average transport jet, that alt may be in the low to mid
20's. The upper left corner of the graph is where Mmo and Vs converge. In
the case of a high flying jet we are bumping up against Mmo, which implies
that we are transonic. Somewhere on the plane, like just above the
cockpit, there is most likely supersonic flow. If we go any faster, or
pull any g, we start to get shock waves on top the wing with flow
separation aft of that, resulting in a rumble in the airframe. Yet the air
is so thin that we are flying quite close to the critical angle of attack.
Any increase in angle of attack will also induce flow separation and
resultant bad things. It is entirely possible for a plane to have enough
power to climb to an altitude where the air is so thin that the plane could
stall and immediately overspeed in the recovery. This is, of course, how
that operating realm came to be known as "coffin corner".
>BTW, I estimated a limiting Mach number of about 0.26 for 230 mph TAS at
>10,000'. Anyone have a better number?
>Regards,
>Jim Ayers
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 4
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Thank you Tom Green!
I wanted to post this note of gratitude for the way Tom Green at Vans
handled a situation that I encountered recently. It has to do with a
mismatch of parts that I ended up with from Vans for mounting the Alternator
on my engine. This posting is long in the details that follow, so skip the
details if you wish, but just know that Vans has regained the respect of one
RV6 builder for the way Tom Green handled a very frustrating situation.
I purchased a Firewall Forward kit from Vans a couple of years ago which
included an Alternator kit with a Boss mount; but I ended up with an engine
that requires a Case mount. At first it seemed like no big deal because
Vans also sells a case mount bracket. I ordered that bracket from Vans,
mounted it to my engine and hung the alternator. After mounting the bracket
and alternator I discovered that the alternator was too far forward by 5/16
of an inch. I called Vans builder support to explain the problem I was
having. I thought that maybe I was missing something. I just couldnt
believe that if I bought the alternator and the bracket(s) from Vans that I
would have a mismatch like this. I didnt see any way to get the alternator
into alignment without milling down the backside of the front ear on the
alternator by 5/16 on an inch. I didnt want to do this (even though there
would have been enough meat to work with) because I didnt want to end up
with a morphodite. When I spoke with an employee of Vans builder support (I
wont mention his name) to see if he had any suggestions. He basically
insulted me by saying that Vans doesnt know what engine, alternator,
brackets, etc that the builder will end up with, and you have to remember
that you are the manufacturer. I told him that I am aware of this, but I
thought that since I bought the alternator and the brackets from Vans, I
didnt think I would end up with a hodgepodge / mismatch. The conversation
was going down hill and instead of getting any constructive suggestions, I
got much more frustrated and I ended the conversation. I dont want this to
sound like a slam on Vans Aircraft but after I hung up the phone and
reflected on the conversation, my whole opinion of Vans Aircraft changed.
I continued thinking (stewing) about the conversation for a few days. I
decided to call back and talk to Tom Green just to let him know that Vans is
selling parts (specifically the case mount bracket and alternator) that don
t work together. After discussing any and all of the possible reasons that
I may be encountering this problem, Tom suggested that I call Plane Power at
(877)934-5700 and tell them what my application and engine are and get a
part number from them for their kit. Tom said that Vans is now selling the
Plane Power alternator kit as a Deluxe Alternator Kit and it even has over
voltage protection built in, but they dont carry the one with the case
mount. He said that he wants me to send back the Vans alternator kit and
the bracket along with the part number for the Plane Power kit. He will
then order that kit, have it drop shipped to me and just charge me the
difference between the two kits. I was amazed at the way he dealt with this
situation and the solution he came up with. I only called because I wanted
to hear what his response would be to what had happened. I was hopping for
a positive response because I didnt want and I didnt think it would be
fair to let my opinion of Vans change because of one bad experience with the
employee in the builder support. After speaking to Tom I called Plane Power
and spoke to a nice lady named Linda. She said that they have exactly what
I need and gave me the part number for their kit for my application. I sent
my original parts back to Vans including a letter to Tom with the part
number (that I got from Linda) and thanked him for his generous offer and
solution to my problem. A week later I received the kit from Plane Power
and I hadnt even arranged to pay the difference yet. I now have the Plane
Power Alternator with their bracket mounted to my engine and it lines up
perfectly.
Kudos Tom! Thanks again.
Joe Radford
Peoria, Arizona
Message 5
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The players in the game haven't changed, and neither has the
game. Steve and Linda Klodd at Plane-Power are fantastic
people to work with, and so is Tom at Vans. Sorry to hear
you had to run into the same degrading experience as well, but
you've now been initiated.... There are many great people
at Van's, in all areas. Your best bet is to get to know a number
of them and then start to ask for them by name. As with
any company, there are some who would best stick to kits and
parts.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Joe Radford wrote:
>
> Thank you Tom Green!
> <snip>
> employee in the builder support. After speaking to Tom I called Plane Power
> and spoke to a nice lady named Linda.
<snip>
>
> Kudos Tom! Thanks again.
>
>
> Joe Radford
> Peoria, Arizona
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Palmetto Wing RV Fly In next Saturday April 7 |
The Palmetto Wing of Vans Air Force
Invites any and all RV pilots/flyers/builders, EAA members
To the fourth annual
PALMETTO RV FLYIN COOKOUT
Saturday, April 7th
No Rain date since Sunday is Easter
(If it rains we will be eating a lot of hamburger)
Columbia Downtown Owens Field Airport
Columbia, SC
Palmetto Burgers and Carolina Dogs
Grills will be fired up at 11:00 AM
No Program
No Vendors
No Speeches
No Organization
No Charge
(Donations Accepted for
EAA Chapter 242)
Just good food, RVs, and friendly conversation.
www.airnav.com/airport/KCUB
Note right traffic for runway 13
Message 7
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I have noticed the same thing when deailng with Van=27s support=2E Most
of the guys act like you are imposing on them when you call for help=2C
but if you get Tom he will go out of his way to help you and sort out a
ny issues you might have=2E
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From=3A Joe Radford
Date=3A Friday=2C March 30=2C 2007 10=3A16 am
Subject=3A RV-List=3A Tom Green
To=3A rv-list=40matronics=2Ecom
=3E --=3E RV-List message posted by=3A =22Joe Radford=22
=3E
=3E Thank you Tom Green!
=3E
=3E I wanted to post this note of gratitude for the way Tom Green at Van
s
=3E handled a situation that I encountered recently=2E It has to do
=3E with a
=3E mismatch of parts that I ended up with from Vans for mounting
=3E the Alternator
=3E on my engine=2E This posting is long in the details that follow=2C
=3E so skip the
=3E details if you wish=2C but just know that Vans has regained the
=3E respect of one
=3E RV6 builder for the way Tom Green handled a very frustrating
=3E situation=2E
=3E I purchased a Firewall Forward kit from Vans a couple of years
=3E ago which
=3E included an Alternator kit with a Boss mount=3B but I ended up
=3E with an engine
=3E that requires a Case mount=2E At first it seemed like no big deal
=3E becauseVans also sells a case mount bracket=2E I ordered that
=3E bracket from Vans=2C
=3E mounted it to my engine and hung the alternator=2E After mounting
=3E the bracket
=3E and alternator I discovered that the alternator was too far
=3E forward by 5/16
=3E of an inch=2E I called Vans builder support to explain the
=3E problem I was
=3E having=2E I thought that maybe I was missing something=2E I just
=3E couldn=92tbelieve that if I bought the alternator and the
=3E bracket(s) from Vans that I
=3E would have a mismatch like this=2E I didn=92t see any way to get
=3E the alternator
=3E into alignment without milling down the backside of the front
=3E ear on the
=3E alternator by 5/16 on an inch=2E I didn=92t want to do this (even
=3E though there
=3E would have been enough =93meat=94 to work with) because I didn=92t
=3E want to end up
=3E with a morphodite=2E When I spoke with an employee of Vans
=3E builder support (I
=3E won=92t mention his name) to see if he had any suggestions=2E He
=3E basicallyinsulted me by saying that Vans doesn=92t know what
=3E engine=2C alternator=2C
=3E brackets=2C etc=85 that the builder will end up with=2C and =93you h
ave
=3E to remember
=3E that you are the manufacturer=94=2E I told him that I am aware of
=3E this=2C but I
=3E thought that since I bought the alternator and the brackets from
=3E Vans=2C I
=3E didn=92t think I would end up with a hodgepodge / mismatch=2E The
=3E conversationwas going down hill and instead of getting any
=3E constructive suggestions=2C I
=3E got much more frustrated and I ended the conversation=2E I don=92t
=3E want this to
=3E sound like a slam on Vans Aircraft but after I hung up the phone and
=3E reflected on the conversation=2C my whole opinion of Vans Aircraft
=3E changed=2E
=3E I continued thinking (stewing) about the conversation for a few
=3E days=2E I
=3E decided to call back and talk to Tom Green just to let him know
=3E that Vans is
=3E selling parts (specifically the case mount bracket and
=3E alternator) that don=92
=3E t work together=2E After discussing any and all of the possible
=3E reasons that
=3E I may be encountering this problem=2C Tom suggested that I call
=3E Plane Power at
=3E (877)934-5700 and tell them what my application and engine are
=3E and get a
=3E part number from them for their kit=2E Tom said that Vans is now
=3E selling the
=3E Plane Power alternator kit as a =93Deluxe Alternator Kit=94 and it
=3E even has over
=3E voltage protection built in=2C but they don=92t carry the one with
=3E the case
=3E mount=2E He said that he wants me to send back the Vans
=3E alternator kit and
=3E the bracket along with the part number for the Plane Power kit=2E
=3E He will
=3E then order that kit=2C have it drop shipped to me and just charge
=3E me the
=3E difference between the two kits=2E I was amazed at the way he
=3E dealt with this
=3E situation and the solution he came up with=2E I only called
=3E because I wanted
=3E to hear what his response would be to what had happened=2E I was
=3E hopping for
=3E a positive response because I didn=92t want and I didn=92t think it
=3E would be
=3E fair to let my opinion of Vans change because of one bad
=3E experience with the
=3E employee in the builder support=2E After speaking to Tom I called
=3E Plane Power
=3E and spoke to a nice lady named Linda=2E She said that they have
=3E exactly what
=3E I need and gave me the part number for their kit for my
=3E application=2E I sent
=3E my original parts back to Vans including a letter to Tom with
=3E the part
=3E number (that I got from Linda) and thanked him for his generous
=3E offer and
=3E solution to my problem=2E A week later I received the kit from
=3E Plane Power
=3E and I hadn=92t even arranged to pay the difference yet=2E I now
=3E have the Plane
=3E Power Alternator with their bracket mounted to my engine and it
=3E lines up
=3E perfectly=2E
=3E
=3E Kudos Tom! Thanks again=2E
=3E
=3E
=3E Joe Radford
=3E Peoria=2C Arizona
=3E
=3E
=3E =5F-======================
========================
=============
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=3E =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Purge valve return line |
> I could just pop an extra fitting in the cover plate of the tank, but
> should
> it be at the bottom, or near the top? If I end up not using it, I suppose
> I
> could just cap it off.
Not having done this myself, take my advice with a grain of salt...but I
don't personally think it matters much where you put the return fitting.
And FWIW, after 1239 hours on my RV-7, I haven't had any purge related
issues whatsoever. The way I teed it into the supply upstream of the
selector has worked just fine. I do think that if you are BUILDING fuel
tanks it makes sense to at least provision for returned fuel...but if you're
dealing with already completed tanks or retrofitting a purge valve onto a
flying airplane, personally I wouldn't bother with anything other than the
teed-in solution. Just my 2 cents!
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
www.rvproject.com
Message 9
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I have also had great help from Gus, Scott, and Bruce.
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
>From: ptrotter@optonline.net
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Tom Green
>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:35:43 +0000 (GMT)
>
>I have noticed the same thing when deailng with Van's support. Most of the
>guys act like you are imposing on them when you call for help, but if you
>get Tom he will go out of his way to help you and sort out any issues you
>might have.
>
>Paul
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Joe Radford
>Date: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:16 am
>Subject: RV-List: Tom Green
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>
> >
> > Thank you Tom Green!
> >
> > I wanted to post this note of gratitude for the way Tom Green at Vans
> > handled a situation that I encountered recently. It has to do
> > with a
> > mismatch of parts that I ended up with from Vans for mounting
> > the Alternator
> > on my engine. This posting is long in the details that follow,
> > so skip the
> > details if you wish, but just know that Vans has regained the
> > respect of one
> > RV6 builder for the way Tom Green handled a very frustrating
> > situation.
> > I purchased a Firewall Forward kit from Vans a couple of years
> > ago which
> > included an Alternator kit with a Boss mount; but I ended up
> > with an engine
> > that requires a Case mount. At first it seemed like no big deal
> > becauseVans also sells a case mount bracket. I ordered that
> > bracket from Vans,
> > mounted it to my engine and hung the alternator. After mounting
> > the bracket
> > and alternator I discovered that the alternator was too far
> > forward by 5/16
> > of an inch. I called Vans builder support to explain the
> > problem I was
> > having. I thought that maybe I was missing something. I just
> > couldntbelieve that if I bought the alternator and the
> > bracket(s) from Vans that I
> > would have a mismatch like this. I didnt see any way to get
> > the alternator
> > into alignment without milling down the backside of the front
> > ear on the
> > alternator by 5/16 on an inch. I didnt want to do this (even
> > though there
> > would have been enough meat to work with) because I didnt
> > want to end up
> > with a morphodite. When I spoke with an employee of Vans
> > builder support (I
> > wont mention his name) to see if he had any suggestions. He
> > basicallyinsulted me by saying that Vans doesnt know what
> > engine, alternator,
> > brackets, etc that the builder will end up with, and you have
> > to remember
> > that you are the manufacturer. I told him that I am aware of
> > this, but I
> > thought that since I bought the alternator and the brackets from
> > Vans, I
> > didnt think I would end up with a hodgepodge / mismatch. The
> > conversationwas going down hill and instead of getting any
> > constructive suggestions, I
> > got much more frustrated and I ended the conversation. I dont
> > want this to
> > sound like a slam on Vans Aircraft but after I hung up the phone and
> > reflected on the conversation, my whole opinion of Vans Aircraft
> > changed.
> > I continued thinking (stewing) about the conversation for a few
> > days. I
> > decided to call back and talk to Tom Green just to let him know
> > that Vans is
> > selling parts (specifically the case mount bracket and
> > alternator) that don
> > t work together. After discussing any and all of the possible
> > reasons that
> > I may be encountering this problem, Tom suggested that I call
> > Plane Power at
> > (877)934-5700 and tell them what my application and engine are
> > and get a
> > part number from them for their kit. Tom said that Vans is now
> > selling the
> > Plane Power alternator kit as a Deluxe Alternator Kit and it
> > even has over
> > voltage protection built in, but they dont carry the one with
> > the case
> > mount. He said that he wants me to send back the Vans
> > alternator kit and
> > the bracket along with the part number for the Plane Power kit.
> > He will
> > then order that kit, have it drop shipped to me and just charge
> > me the
> > difference between the two kits. I was amazed at the way he
> > dealt with this
> > situation and the solution he came up with. I only called
> > because I wanted
> > to hear what his response would be to what had happened. I was
> > hopping for
> > a positive response because I didnt want and I didnt think it
> > would be
> > fair to let my opinion of Vans change because of one bad
> > experience with the
> > employee in the builder support. After speaking to Tom I called
> > Plane Power
> > and spoke to a nice lady named Linda. She said that they have
> > exactly what
> > I need and gave me the part number for their kit for my
> > application. I sent
> > my original parts back to Vans including a letter to Tom with
> > the part
> > number (that I got from Linda) and thanked him for his generous
> > offer and
> > solution to my problem. A week later I received the kit from
> > Plane Power
> > and I hadnt even arranged to pay the difference yet. I now
> > have the Plane
> > Power Alternator with their bracket mounted to my engine and it
> > lines up
> > perfectly.
> >
> > Kudos Tom! Thanks again.
> >
> >
> > Joe Radford
> > Peoria, Arizona
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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