---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/30/07: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:47 AM - Re: TAS and Vne (SCOTT SPENCER) 2. 06:00 AM - New RV Rudder build video DVD (Jon Croke) 3. 07:13 AM - Re: envelopes and gauges, was TAS and Vne & Flutter at Altitude (glen matejcek) 4. 07:16 AM - Tom Green (Joe Radford) 5. 08:39 AM - Re: Tom Green (Tim Olson) 6. 08:57 AM - Palmetto Wing RV Fly In next Saturday April 7 (Patty Hamilton) 7. 12:36 PM - Re: Tom Green (ptrotter@optonline.net) 8. 01:12 PM - Re: Purge valve return line (Dan Checkoway) 9. 06:39 PM - Re: Tom Green (Frank Stringham) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:17 AM PST US From: SCOTT SPENCER Subject: RV-List: Re: TAS and Vne >>>>I was told that the MU-2 has an airspeed indicator that shows the critical airspeed for that flight altitude. The critical airspeed is shown as a moving (red?) line on the IAS indicator. <<< Ain't just the MU-2... as also stated by another lister, ALL jets I know of, and most of the faster turboprops have the Vne marking on the airspeed indicator expressed as a *moving needle* (that the airspeed needle can still pass over -don't ask me how I know) commonly called a 'barber pole', because it's typically painted red and white like, well... a barber pole. ;) It changes position with altitude/air density to reflect the Vne (indicated) at the present situation. Just for an example... Yesterday, like most days I fly it, I was sitting in the Gulfstream at altitude seeing the airspeed 'bumping the pole' as they say, at M.80 ( i.e. we were *at* Vne) and the indicated airspeed (and the barber pole) was somewhere in the lower 200's. Our true was around 430 knots or so according to the ADC. We were at FL390 as I recall... sounds about right anyway. If we had gone higher or lower the numbers would have been different... to an absolute limitation for this aircraft (GIIB) of M.85 at high altitude or 367 KCAS at low altitude. That's why the need for a 'moving redline'/barber pole So you can tell all your friends that the Vne on a Gulfstream bizjet is at around 230KIAS (give or take) in cruise flight... and blow their minds... but of course that number only applies at around 40,000 feet or so... on certain days. Some restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. And yes, flutter is real. And it's an aero-elasticity/natural-frequency sort of thing as stated by some already... and it can kill you as stated by many. And Vans knows what they are talking about. Scott N4ZW ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:29 AM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: RV-List: New RV Rudder build video DVD For those of you who might want to get a friend interested in RV building... HomebuiltHELP is announcing the release of a new instructional video DVD: RV Rudder Workshop. As you might imagine, it is for the beginner, demonstrating the use of tools, riveting, and then assembling an RV7 rudder from start to finish. This topic has been done before on video, but this one has a more polished presentation and attention to practical details. Info available at http://homebuilthelp.com/RVRudder.htm Thank you! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:04 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: RV-List: RE: envelopes and gauges, was TAS and Vne & Flutter at Altitude The following is non-RV related techno-mumbo-jumbo, so go ahead and delete now rather than scolding later if one isn't interested.... Hi Jim- >I was told that the MU-2 has an airspeed indicator that shows the critical >airspeed for that flight altitude. The critical airspeed is shown as a moving > (red?) line on the IAS indicator. The Vmo/Mmo pointer on such an airspeed indicator moves so as to respect whatever the pertinent limit is, be it V or M. The pointer has diagonal red and white stripes to differentiate it from a conventional fixed red line, and is referred to as a "barber pole" in common parlance. >Another method I've heard of using is an indicated airspeed to a fairly low >altitude like 10,000' and a limiting Mach number above that altitude. > >Part 23 identifies a maximum operating airspeed (Vmo) and a maximum >operating Mach number (Mmo) as airspeed limits. Where Vmo is an IAS? And Mmo >as a >fixed Mach number is a varying TAS? (Mach 1 being about 760 knots TAS at sea >level to about 660 knots TAS at 35,000?) Consider a graph of altitude (vert axis) vs IAS (horiz axis). We plot the various airspeed limits on the graph to build an airspeed envelope. First, we make a vertical line at Vs. Next we make another vertical line at Vne. These two lines along with the zero alt line make up three side of our airspeed operating envelope. Last we have Mmo, or max operating Mach. Recall that Mach (the speed of sound) is dependant upon air temperature, with higher temps yielding a higher speed of sound. If we were to plot Mach on our graph, it would be a line that started out high on the left (higher alt and lower speed) and angled down towards the right (lower altitude and higher speed). If our limiting Mach is less than 1, it will be represented by a line below the Mach line and with a lesser slope than the Mach line. The crossover altitude where the Vne and Mmo lines meet (upper right corner of the graph) is the altitude where the barber pole starts to move towards a lower value. In the case of a turboprop with a lower Mmo, that will be a relatively lower altitude, perhaps the low teens. In the case of the average transport jet, that alt may be in the low to mid 20's. The upper left corner of the graph is where Mmo and Vs converge. In the case of a high flying jet we are bumping up against Mmo, which implies that we are transonic. Somewhere on the plane, like just above the cockpit, there is most likely supersonic flow. If we go any faster, or pull any g, we start to get shock waves on top the wing with flow separation aft of that, resulting in a rumble in the airframe. Yet the air is so thin that we are flying quite close to the critical angle of attack. Any increase in angle of attack will also induce flow separation and resultant bad things. It is entirely possible for a plane to have enough power to climb to an altitude where the air is so thin that the plane could stall and immediately overspeed in the recovery. This is, of course, how that operating realm came to be known as "coffin corner". >BTW, I estimated a limiting Mach number of about 0.26 for 230 mph TAS at >10,000'. Anyone have a better number? >Regards, >Jim Ayers glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:08 AM PST US From: "Joe Radford" Subject: RV-List: Tom Green Thank you Tom Green! I wanted to post this note of gratitude for the way Tom Green at Vans handled a situation that I encountered recently. It has to do with a mismatch of parts that I ended up with from Vans for mounting the Alternator on my engine. This posting is long in the details that follow, so skip the details if you wish, but just know that Vans has regained the respect of one RV6 builder for the way Tom Green handled a very frustrating situation. I purchased a Firewall Forward kit from Vans a couple of years ago which included an Alternator kit with a Boss mount; but I ended up with an engine that requires a Case mount. At first it seemed like no big deal because Vans also sells a case mount bracket. I ordered that bracket from Vans, mounted it to my engine and hung the alternator. After mounting the bracket and alternator I discovered that the alternator was too far forward by 5/16 of an inch. I called Vans builder support to explain the problem I was having. I thought that maybe I was missing something. I just couldnt believe that if I bought the alternator and the bracket(s) from Vans that I would have a mismatch like this. I didnt see any way to get the alternator into alignment without milling down the backside of the front ear on the alternator by 5/16 on an inch. I didnt want to do this (even though there would have been enough meat to work with) because I didnt want to end up with a morphodite. When I spoke with an employee of Vans builder support (I wont mention his name) to see if he had any suggestions. He basically insulted me by saying that Vans doesnt know what engine, alternator, brackets, etc that the builder will end up with, and you have to remember that you are the manufacturer. I told him that I am aware of this, but I thought that since I bought the alternator and the brackets from Vans, I didnt think I would end up with a hodgepodge / mismatch. The conversation was going down hill and instead of getting any constructive suggestions, I got much more frustrated and I ended the conversation. I dont want this to sound like a slam on Vans Aircraft but after I hung up the phone and reflected on the conversation, my whole opinion of Vans Aircraft changed. I continued thinking (stewing) about the conversation for a few days. I decided to call back and talk to Tom Green just to let him know that Vans is selling parts (specifically the case mount bracket and alternator) that don t work together. After discussing any and all of the possible reasons that I may be encountering this problem, Tom suggested that I call Plane Power at (877)934-5700 and tell them what my application and engine are and get a part number from them for their kit. Tom said that Vans is now selling the Plane Power alternator kit as a Deluxe Alternator Kit and it even has over voltage protection built in, but they dont carry the one with the case mount. He said that he wants me to send back the Vans alternator kit and the bracket along with the part number for the Plane Power kit. He will then order that kit, have it drop shipped to me and just charge me the difference between the two kits. I was amazed at the way he dealt with this situation and the solution he came up with. I only called because I wanted to hear what his response would be to what had happened. I was hopping for a positive response because I didnt want and I didnt think it would be fair to let my opinion of Vans change because of one bad experience with the employee in the builder support. After speaking to Tom I called Plane Power and spoke to a nice lady named Linda. She said that they have exactly what I need and gave me the part number for their kit for my application. I sent my original parts back to Vans including a letter to Tom with the part number (that I got from Linda) and thanked him for his generous offer and solution to my problem. A week later I received the kit from Plane Power and I hadnt even arranged to pay the difference yet. I now have the Plane Power Alternator with their bracket mounted to my engine and it lines up perfectly. Kudos Tom! Thanks again. Joe Radford Peoria, Arizona ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:40 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: Tom Green The players in the game haven't changed, and neither has the game. Steve and Linda Klodd at Plane-Power are fantastic people to work with, and so is Tom at Vans. Sorry to hear you had to run into the same degrading experience as well, but you've now been initiated.... There are many great people at Van's, in all areas. Your best bet is to get to know a number of them and then start to ask for them by name. As with any company, there are some who would best stick to kits and parts. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Joe Radford wrote: > > Thank you Tom Green! > > employee in the builder support. After speaking to Tom I called Plane Power > and spoke to a nice lady named Linda. > > Kudos Tom! Thanks again. > > > Joe Radford > Peoria, Arizona > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:19 AM PST US From: "Patty Hamilton" Subject: RV-List: Palmetto Wing RV Fly In next Saturday April 7 The Palmetto Wing of Vans Air Force Invites any and all RV pilots/flyers/builders, EAA members To the fourth annual PALMETTO RV FLYIN COOKOUT Saturday, April 7th No Rain date since Sunday is Easter (If it rains we will be eating a lot of hamburger) Columbia Downtown Owens Field Airport Columbia, SC Palmetto Burgers and Carolina Dogs Grills will be fired up at 11:00 AM No Program No Vendors No Speeches No Organization No Charge (Donations Accepted for EAA Chapter 242) Just good food, RVs, and friendly conversation. www.airnav.com/airport/KCUB Note right traffic for runway 13 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:36:51 PM PST US From: ptrotter@optonline.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Tom Green I have noticed the same thing when deailng with Van=27s support=2E Most of the guys act like you are imposing on them when you call for help=2C but if you get Tom he will go out of his way to help you and sort out a ny issues you might have=2E Paul ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Joe Radford Date=3A Friday=2C March 30=2C 2007 10=3A16 am Subject=3A RV-List=3A Tom Green To=3A rv-list=40matronics=2Ecom =3E --=3E RV-List message posted by=3A =22Joe Radford=22 =3E =3E Thank you Tom Green! =3E =3E I wanted to post this note of gratitude for the way Tom Green at Van s =3E handled a situation that I encountered recently=2E It has to do =3E with a =3E mismatch of parts that I ended up with from Vans for mounting =3E the Alternator =3E on my engine=2E This posting is long in the details that follow=2C =3E so skip the =3E details if you wish=2C but just know that Vans has regained the =3E respect of one =3E RV6 builder for the way Tom Green handled a very frustrating =3E situation=2E =3E I purchased a Firewall Forward kit from Vans a couple of years =3E ago which =3E included an Alternator kit with a Boss mount=3B but I ended up =3E with an engine =3E that requires a Case mount=2E At first it seemed like no big deal =3E becauseVans also sells a case mount bracket=2E I ordered that =3E bracket from Vans=2C =3E mounted it to my engine and hung the alternator=2E After mounting =3E the bracket =3E and alternator I discovered that the alternator was too far =3E forward by 5/16 =3E of an inch=2E I called Vans builder support to explain the =3E problem I was =3E having=2E I thought that maybe I was missing something=2E I just =3E couldn=92tbelieve that if I bought the alternator and the =3E bracket(s) from Vans that I =3E would have a mismatch like this=2E I didn=92t see any way to get =3E the alternator =3E into alignment without milling down the backside of the front =3E ear on the =3E alternator by 5/16 on an inch=2E I didn=92t want to do this (even =3E though there =3E would have been enough =93meat=94 to work with) because I didn=92t =3E want to end up =3E with a morphodite=2E When I spoke with an employee of Vans =3E builder support (I =3E won=92t mention his name) to see if he had any suggestions=2E He =3E basicallyinsulted me by saying that Vans doesn=92t know what =3E engine=2C alternator=2C =3E brackets=2C etc=85 that the builder will end up with=2C and =93you h ave =3E to remember =3E that you are the manufacturer=94=2E I told him that I am aware of =3E this=2C but I =3E thought that since I bought the alternator and the brackets from =3E Vans=2C I =3E didn=92t think I would end up with a hodgepodge / mismatch=2E The =3E conversationwas going down hill and instead of getting any =3E constructive suggestions=2C I =3E got much more frustrated and I ended the conversation=2E I don=92t =3E want this to =3E sound like a slam on Vans Aircraft but after I hung up the phone and =3E reflected on the conversation=2C my whole opinion of Vans Aircraft =3E changed=2E =3E I continued thinking (stewing) about the conversation for a few =3E days=2E I =3E decided to call back and talk to Tom Green just to let him know =3E that Vans is =3E selling parts (specifically the case mount bracket and =3E alternator) that don=92 =3E t work together=2E After discussing any and all of the possible =3E reasons that =3E I may be encountering this problem=2C Tom suggested that I call =3E Plane Power at =3E (877)934-5700 and tell them what my application and engine are =3E and get a =3E part number from them for their kit=2E Tom said that Vans is now =3E selling the =3E Plane Power alternator kit as a =93Deluxe Alternator Kit=94 and it =3E even has over =3E voltage protection built in=2C but they don=92t carry the one with =3E the case =3E mount=2E He said that he wants me to send back the Vans =3E alternator kit and =3E the bracket along with the part number for the Plane Power kit=2E =3E He will =3E then order that kit=2C have it drop shipped to me and just charge =3E me the =3E difference between the two kits=2E I was amazed at the way he =3E dealt with this =3E situation and the solution he came up with=2E I only called =3E because I wanted =3E to hear what his response would be to what had happened=2E I was =3E hopping for =3E a positive response because I didn=92t want and I didn=92t think it =3E would be =3E fair to let my opinion of Vans change because of one bad =3E experience with the =3E employee in the builder support=2E After speaking to Tom I called =3E Plane Power =3E and spoke to a nice lady named Linda=2E She said that they have =3E exactly what =3E I need and gave me the part number for their kit for my =3E application=2E I sent =3E my original parts back to Vans including a letter to Tom with =3E the part =3E number (that I got from Linda) and thanked him for his generous =3E offer and =3E solution to my problem=2E A week later I received the kit from =3E Plane Power =3E and I hadn=92t even arranged to pay the difference yet=2E I now =3E have the Plane =3E Power Alternator with their bracket mounted to my engine and it =3E lines up =3E perfectly=2E =3E =3E Kudos Tom! Thanks again=2E =3E =3E =3E Joe Radford =3E Peoria=2C Arizona =3E =3E =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F-= - The RV-List Email Forum - =3E =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =3E =5F-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page=2C =3E =5F-= Archive Search =26 Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C =3E =5F-= Photoshare=2C and much much more=3A =3E =5F-= --=3E http=3A//www=2Ematronics=2Ecom/Navigator=3FRV-List =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =5F-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =3E =5F-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! =3E =5F-= --=3E http=3A//forums=2Ematronics=2Ecom =3E =5F-====================== ======================== ============= =3E =3E =3E =3E ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:12 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Purge valve return line > I could just pop an extra fitting in the cover plate of the tank, but > should > it be at the bottom, or near the top? If I end up not using it, I suppose > I > could just cap it off. Not having done this myself, take my advice with a grain of salt...but I don't personally think it matters much where you put the return fitting. And FWIW, after 1239 hours on my RV-7, I haven't had any purge related issues whatsoever. The way I teed it into the supply upstream of the selector has worked just fine. I do think that if you are BUILDING fuel tanks it makes sense to at least provision for returned fuel...but if you're dealing with already completed tanks or retrofitting a purge valve onto a flying airplane, personally I wouldn't bother with anything other than the teed-in solution. Just my 2 cents! )_( Dan RV-7 N714D www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:03 PM PST US From: "Frank Stringham" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tom Green I have also had great help from Gus, Scott, and Bruce. Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY" >From: ptrotter@optonline.net >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Tom Green >Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 19:35:43 +0000 (GMT) > >I have noticed the same thing when deailng with Van's support. Most of the >guys act like you are imposing on them when you call for help, but if you >get Tom he will go out of his way to help you and sort out any issues you >might have. > >Paul > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Radford >Date: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:16 am >Subject: RV-List: Tom Green >To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > > > Thank you Tom Green! > > > > I wanted to post this note of gratitude for the way Tom Green at Vans > > handled a situation that I encountered recently. It has to do > > with a > > mismatch of parts that I ended up with from Vans for mounting > > the Alternator > > on my engine. This posting is long in the details that follow, > > so skip the > > details if you wish, but just know that Vans has regained the > > respect of one > > RV6 builder for the way Tom Green handled a very frustrating > > situation. > > I purchased a Firewall Forward kit from Vans a couple of years > > ago which > > included an Alternator kit with a Boss mount; but I ended up > > with an engine > > that requires a Case mount. At first it seemed like no big deal > > becauseVans also sells a case mount bracket. I ordered that > > bracket from Vans, > > mounted it to my engine and hung the alternator. After mounting > > the bracket > > and alternator I discovered that the alternator was too far > > forward by 5/16 > > of an inch. I called Vans builder support to explain the > > problem I was > > having. I thought that maybe I was missing something. I just > > couldntbelieve that if I bought the alternator and the > > bracket(s) from Vans that I > > would have a mismatch like this. I didnt see any way to get > > the alternator > > into alignment without milling down the backside of the front > > ear on the > > alternator by 5/16 on an inch. I didnt want to do this (even > > though there > > would have been enough meat to work with) because I didnt > > want to end up > > with a morphodite. When I spoke with an employee of Vans > > builder support (I > > wont mention his name) to see if he had any suggestions. He > > basicallyinsulted me by saying that Vans doesnt know what > > engine, alternator, > > brackets, etc that the builder will end up with, and you have > > to remember > > that you are the manufacturer. I told him that I am aware of > > this, but I > > thought that since I bought the alternator and the brackets from > > Vans, I > > didnt think I would end up with a hodgepodge / mismatch. The > > conversationwas going down hill and instead of getting any > > constructive suggestions, I > > got much more frustrated and I ended the conversation. I dont > > want this to > > sound like a slam on Vans Aircraft but after I hung up the phone and > > reflected on the conversation, my whole opinion of Vans Aircraft > > changed. > > I continued thinking (stewing) about the conversation for a few > > days. I > > decided to call back and talk to Tom Green just to let him know > > that Vans is > > selling parts (specifically the case mount bracket and > > alternator) that don > > t work together. After discussing any and all of the possible > > reasons that > > I may be encountering this problem, Tom suggested that I call > > Plane Power at > > (877)934-5700 and tell them what my application and engine are > > and get a > > part number from them for their kit. Tom said that Vans is now > > selling the > > Plane Power alternator kit as a Deluxe Alternator Kit and it > > even has over > > voltage protection built in, but they dont carry the one with > > the case > > mount. He said that he wants me to send back the Vans > > alternator kit and > > the bracket along with the part number for the Plane Power kit. > > He will > > then order that kit, have it drop shipped to me and just charge > > me the > > difference between the two kits. I was amazed at the way he > > dealt with this > > situation and the solution he came up with. I only called > > because I wanted > > to hear what his response would be to what had happened. I was > > hopping for > > a positive response because I didnt want and I didnt think it > > would be > > fair to let my opinion of Vans change because of one bad > > experience with the > > employee in the builder support. After speaking to Tom I called > > Plane Power > > and spoke to a nice lady named Linda. She said that they have > > exactly what > > I need and gave me the part number for their kit for my > > application. I sent > > my original parts back to Vans including a letter to Tom with > > the part > > number (that I got from Linda) and thanked him for his generous > > offer and > > solution to my problem. A week later I received the kit from > > Plane Power > > and I hadnt even arranged to pay the difference yet. I now > > have the Plane > > Power Alternator with their bracket mounted to my engine and it > > lines up > > perfectly. > > > > Kudos Tom! Thanks again. > > > > > > Joe Radford > > Peoria, Arizona > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. 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