Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:22 AM - Re: Tires.. (Jeff Point)
2. 01:33 AM - Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) (RAS)
3. 07:12 AM - which angle (Dave Mader)
4. 07:12 AM - Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) (Glen Matejcek)
5. 07:30 AM - Re: Tires.. (Dan Checkoway)
6. 07:35 AM - Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) (Larry Mac Donald)
7. 07:57 AM - PAPSP - Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program (Was Safety) (Deems Davis)
8. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) (Rob Prior)
9. 12:01 PM - Phase one Radius (Charles Brame)
10. 12:03 PM - Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) (John Porter)
11. 12:13 PM - Re: which angle (HCRV6@comcast.net)
12. 12:41 PM - Re: PAPSP - Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program (Was Safety) (Richard E. Tasker)
13. 02:48 PM - Carb Fittings? Primer fittings? (Bill Schlatterer)
14. 03:08 PM - Re: PAPSP - Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program (Was Safety) (Rob Prior)
15. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) (Richard Seiders)
Message 1
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Dan,
Did you by chance measure the weight difference? I'm about to put on my
3rd set of Airhawks, mostly due to inertia, but the longer life has my
intrigued.
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
Hi All,
Has anyone ever looked into the RV accident statistics and determined the
ratio of accidents against the number of non-builder owners?
Message 3
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Guys, I am building an RV-4 (circa 1989) and am constructing the
firewall.
The =BE x =BE x .125=94 angle that goes around the perimeter and
reinforces the
firewall needs
To be cut and I would like to know if anybody remembers which pieces I
use
to cut these. I have 7 pieces.
2 that are 170=94
2 that are 130=94
1 that is 72=94
2 that are 31=94
Obviously, the 2 170=94 are the main longerons=85.anybody know or
remember which
pieces to use for the firewall?
Dave Mader
Sheridan, Wyo
RV6, flying
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
Ron-
> If all you macho taildragger dudes can stop kissing yourself in the
> mirror for a bit I have a bigger issue.
I, for one, never kiss the mirror. You never know who was there first.
> Does anyone feel that a safety course targeted to RV pilots may
> eventually improve our safety record?
Only if you can get the get the right people to attend.
>I don't know if you can get
> anything across to putzes who fly into class 5 (?) thunderstorms,
> tempt
> Darwin and lose, but if most accidents are pilot error we should do
> more
> to reduce that factor.
Therein lies the problem. If you just stage a safety course, you will quickly
find that you are preaching to the choir. Most folks who get in over their heads
are ignorant. Now, somewhere, someone who has lost a friend or loved one
is already annoyed with me for my diction, but think about it. If they knew they
were en route to their demise, they would alter their course. But they don't.
Think of the piolts you know. You probably know one who will seek out a
cfi that they know will give them at least somewhat of a work out on a BFR, and
one who will try to find a buddy to do a little creative writing in the log.
Objectively, which one is more likely to have problems down the road? Plus,
some people just don't seem to be able to be responsible and have fun at the
same time.
Consider the audience on this list. We are all participating here because we acknowledge
that we don't know what we don't know, but we want to learn it. There
are thousands of folks reading this forum to learn. If you were to stage
a safety seminar, it would be populated with a whole lot of the same folks. The
putzes you referenced above would rather be out thinning the gene pool.
So. What to do. Suppose someone proclaims themselves an RV guru. Perhaps they
have a resume with a goodly amount of RV time and no insurance claims, and they
can write reasonably well to boot. They approach an insurance company to
try and set it up so that if an RV pilot gets training and a stamp of approval
from the 'guru' they will get a break on insurance rates. Sound like a plan?
This was tried recently in the conventional gear world. The alphabet groups
wouldn't have anything to do with it. There was no real public explanation as
to why they wouldn't buy off on it, but I believe it is because it would put
a whole lot of economic power, aside from the direct revenues, into the hands
of an individual. How could RVer's work around this? I can see two possible
avenues. First would be an FAA approved / sanctioned / recognized body representing
experimental aviation running a safety program that issued some sort of
completion certificate, much like the formation fliers get. The other would
be a type club performing the same function. Now, where do you find the people
with the right skill sets and qualifications and, perhaps most importantly,
the right motivations to make this happen?
Glen Matejcek
Message 5
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> Did you by chance measure the weight difference? I'm about to put on my
> 3rd set of Airhawks, mostly due to inertia, but the longer life has my
> intrigued.
Unfortunately, no. But with my highly accurate calibrated neuro-sensitive
Hand 2000 scales I could definitely feel a difference of (what felt to me
like) a couple of pounds per set.
I think I have some old AirHawk cores lying around. When the Wilkerson
retreat Flight Custom IIs come off, I'll try to remember to compare those.
)_( Dan
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
Ron,
Bob Miller writes a news letter each week for all pilots
and is addressing your very peeve. The address of the
newsletter is "overtheairwaves".com. He is very
knowledgable and has researched a lot of this matter.
Larry Mac Donald
lm4@juno.com
Rochester N.Y.
Do not archive
On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 21:40:21 GMT ronlee@pcisys.net writes:
>
If all you macho taildragger dudes can stop kissing yourself in the
mirror for a bit I have a bigger issue.
I am getting damn tired of hearing of RVs crashing and killing
people.
Message 7
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| Subject: | PAPSP - Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program (Was Safety) |
Glen, I began a thread on the RV-10 list some while back on the same
topic only aimed particularly @ RV-10's. I got a response from about 25
listers who indicated interest in the idea/concept. I had planned to
model it after the Bonanza Pilot proficiency programs. I'll attach a
couple of messages to this e-mail that contain the gist of the program.
I've held off on pushing/developing this as I'm trying to finish my
RV-10 this year, and developing the program is a BIG time consumer. I
had several offers from the RV community of very qualified people that
were/are interested in participating in particular phases of developing
the program.My intent was/is to pick this back up towards the end of the
year when the -1o is flying, If there is enough interest in developing a
program for the larger RV community perhaps the effort could be
transitioned.
Your comment about preaching to the choir has some merit to it. However,
I don't believe that's a reason not to proceed. Additionally , My friend
Rick Sked and his partner are attempting to form Aircraft Mutual
http://www.aircraftmutual.com/ with the aim of taking the risk
management/ property insurance issue away from the insurance carriers
and into the hands of the RV pilots/owners. Rick would be whole
heartedly in support of such a program.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Some prior e-mails on subject follow
I'd like to float an idea to the group with the community zeroing in on
700 builders, and that is: Why don't we organize an RV-10 Pilot &
Aircraft Proficiency Safety Program - PAPSP- ? I believe that several of
the certificated type's have similar programs ( I know that
Bonanza's/Barons do) so there are models out there that can be
adopted/examined. With the strength of the building community evidenced
on this list, and some prior posts aimed at organizing -10 type flyins.
Why couldn't we combine those objectives? Loosely speaking the idea
would be to periodically (annually initially?) meet at a fly-in (what
about Doug Reeves Land Of Enchantment?). In between the hangar talk and
comeraderie. there could be a pilot skills clinic established to talk
specifically to -10 issues, as well as an aircraft safety/performance
clinic (might even couple it with a formation flying clinic) . The
clinics could be classroom based, cockpit/airframe based, or both. A
ciriculum/s would have to be developed, guidelines established,
volunteerism would have to be significant, but the benefits in
Insurance, Safety, and potential performance improvements could be
enormous, a 'self-regulating' group would likely draw the favor of
insurance companies and underwriters. It also could just be a "Lot of
Fun" (and could redirect some of the energy that goes into the building
process into the 'flying' process and potentially delay the starting of
another project to satisfy the 'need')
Anyway just an idea,
Anybody listening?
Deems Davis # 406 /
/
f I'm taking up too much bandwidth with this let me know, But I felt
the need to get something short concise and written that would serve to
guide efforts as we go down this path. Some call these Mission
statements, I took a crack at drafting an Objective statement the
intent is the same. If this program is built to meet/suit the needs of
the RV10 community, the communities feedback and input in crafting this
is essential. Please review and critique it, rip it apart, modify it,
and improve it in any way you think will add value or clarify what we
are attempting to do, I'm pretty thick skinned and won't take offense at
any input. I'll digest everything I receive and publish an update when
the input dries up. If we have conflicting input we'll put it back to
the group for a tie breaker. I want to make it clear that I'm not trying
to take ownership of this or to stake out any turf, I'm probably the
least qualified person to tackle something like this, based upon
information that I've seen/received from several, there are many who
have impressive credentials in the area of aviation and safety arena and
are more qualified. So the floor is open for nominations.
I included a VERY high level outline of how we might go about some of
the next steps. Please note there are no time frames on anything at
this point (contradicts my background, but suits my present reality,
which is to make it Fun and not Work) My expectation is that building
this could take months/years. If we can get a community consensus on
Objective, Program Components/Elements and Priorities, we can break
the development and implementation into incremental steps.
Thanks for the interest expressed thus far and any suggestions going forward
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
/
/To all who've responded to this thread so far:
Thank you for your responses. As Patrick, John and others have pointed
out, accomplishing something like this is NOT a minor undertaking. I
don't doubt for a moment, the amount of work that would be required to
put something like this together, with 40% (+/- 90%) more to go on my
own project, I'm also not misleading myself into thinking this is
something I could/would do alone or in my own spare time. However, I am
willing to put some of the evening time that I spend (along with others
time) browsing the boards/lists/websites into developing something that
could be of significant value to our community. There is enough
anecdotal evidence so far to suggest that the REAL value is there. As
Patrick pointed out the biggest value, is a fleet of safety conscious
pilots and aircraft. And while this is _First and Foremost_ a Safety and
Proficiency idea, It doesn't rule out having some fun and enjoyment. It
also doesn't have to be built and implemented in a way that requires us
to build and eat the whole elephant at once, perhaps a phased approach
is possible?
In order for this idea/concept to work, it will have to have a LOT of
support from the RV-10 community, as it would be entirely voluntary,
there are no compulsory 'enforcement' actions that can be taken other
than to withhold some type of certification. It would also require
availability and commitment of some particular skills (CFI/CFII), that I
for one don't have. (may encourage me to get another rating! :-) ) So
with all of that said, the 1st item is to determine what , how much of
an interest there is in a program like this, its easy to respond to an
e-mail, and although I've received 10 + positive responses to the idea,
that's not yet enough (1.5%) in my opinion to make a GO commitment.
However it is encouraging enough to continue with the step of
determining what kind of an interest there might be in such an event.
Apart from this mail list, does anyone else have any additional ideas on
how to survey the RV-10 group? I see that Rick S. and Bob K. have
received. (If I can figure out how to do it I might put up a survey page
on my web site, for those bashful folks who aren't as vocal on the mail
list)
IF, (big IF) there is enough interest, I'm thinking the next step would
be to form an advisory group that would help to specify the mission,
establish the scope, set priorities, outline a curriculum, establish
governance, etc. Some of you have indicated an willingness.desire to
contribute, I'll assemble a list of potential contributors and the skill
set/expertise that may be available. If you don't want to respond
on-line send me a not offline to register your interest.
One of the suggestions was to broaden the concept to the whole RV
community. My prior life experience taught me that as the
size/complexity of the effort increases, the risk of failure increases
exponentially. So I'm inclined to focus on this group (RV-10) for
starters. If we can make a go of it, then it could be exported to a
wider community.
Please keep the suggestions/alternatives/input coming I have learned
that the electronic/distributed community is indeed a synergistic
organism and there is much more knowledge and expertise out here than I
could ever hope to acquire in my lifetime.
/
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
On 16:00 1969-12-31 Glen Matejcek <aerobubba@earthlink.net> wrote:
> How could RVer's work
> around this? I can see two possible avenues. First would be an FAA
> approved / sanctioned / recognized body representing experimental
> aviation running a safety program that issued some sort of completion
> certificate, much like the formation fliers get.
Maybe we've already got the answer, sort of, right here. We all keep logs,
and those of us who go off and do "extra" things to improve proficiency
usually have it logged in one way or another. Personally I log all of my
formation, tailwheel, and glider towing in separate columns in my logbook,
and I had to add those columns because they weren't there when I started.
I've also been counting landings since I got my PPL, and they outnumber my
flights by about 5:1 now. I know pilots for who that ratio is almost 1:1,
they never fly circuits just for the practise.
Would having your logbook reviewed annually be a good idea? Or maybe have
the option of submitting the totals for your "extra" activities, to show
that you're more than just flying straight-and-level from A to B all the
time?
-Rob
Message 9
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| Subject: | Phase one Radius |
One of our local builders recently got his inspection and
Airworthiness Certificate. He presented the DAR with his desired
Phase One area laid out on a sectional. It was a huge area covering
most of south central Texas. His map had well delineated borders and
excluded populated areas and Class B airspace, though it did
completely surround some of the excluded areas. He specifically
included some distant airports that had avionics shops, painting
facilities, etc., and other RV builder's facilities. He highlighted
emergency fields and airports for practice touch and goes and
instrument approaches. The DAR said his requested area was something
new and different and that he had obviously put some thought into it.
The area was approved it without any restrictions.
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Amntonio
----------------------------------------------------------------
> Time: 12:22:18 PM PST US
> From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
> Subject: RV-List: Phase One Radius
>
> Since I heard this list needs something to noodle about, here's
> one... Can
> anyone tell me why it is important to limit the radius one can fly
> off phase
> one to 50 miles, or any number of miles at all? I'm in the midst
> of this
> exercise and wonder what safety issue dictates this... I would
> rather see the
> rules
> reflect that the pilot has an understanding of simply staying away
> from
> populated areas, have a place to set down, etc., whether it's 50
> miles out or
>
> 200... Sure would make it more interesting...
>
> Maybe this is a holdover of the 1920's or sumpin'?
>
> Just noodling,
> Jerry Cochran
> RV-6a 6 hrs.
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
Hi,
This is how I break down RV accidents. I've looked at all the NTSB stuff
and, for me, it goes like this. First, marginal VFR. I put in a Dynon so I
have an attitude indicator with pitot heat but the aircraft is day/night
VFR. In having an aircraft that's VFR it should keep me from trying to be
stupid (I've been there, it is, end of topic)
Secondly, RV's run out of gas. This one is why I built my wings as the QB
kits come with the float gauges. I am tired of GA aircraft with bad fuel
gauges. So...........we put capacitance gauges in my -8. I also use fuel
flow, but the point is, be conservative and don't push the fuel. Know how
much you have.
Third is mechanical failure. This, I've seen, as hoses. So to answer
this, I didn't build my own hoses and pressure test them with my compressor.
I have TSO'ed hoses from Tulsa that are 3000 psi tested with a fire sleeve
on each one. Didn't like the bill, but they won't fail.
And fourth, the dumbs--t, "Watch this pullup". As an ex-USAF pilot, it
just doesn't happen. We know about rolling G's, aerodynamics, etc. In the
words of George senior, "Wouldn't be prudent...............".
I would like to see a better safety record with RV's. They are a high
performance SEL aircraft. They are not your grandma's Champ. I've seen
guys scud running over Dundee, Oregon at 300 ft in formation. That is an
accident waiting to happen.
Ron, these are the area's I've thought about. I'm sure others have ideas.
I have never shared these idea's because no one's asked. But I think they
have value. And Van addressed some of these concerns a few years back
talking about his flying attentions. It was (an is) a very good read from
the RVator. His general tone is to "polish the stone". Don't accept
landing long. Don't be 10 kts off speed. Don't fly the bomber pattern.
Pay attention.
Just my two cents,
John
80002
Message 11
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: PAPSP - Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program (Was |
Safety)
This is a great idea. However, they would be able to get to more people
if their website didn't require Flash... Not everyone that needs
aircraft insurance has a broadband internet connection...
Dick Tasker
Deems Davis wrote:
> Your comment about preaching to the choir has some merit to it.
> However, I don't believe that's a reason not to proceed. Additionally
> , My friend Rick Sked and his partner are attempting to form Aircraft
> Mutual http://www.aircraftmutual.com/ with the aim of taking the
> risk management/ property insurance issue away from the insurance
> carriers and into the hands of the RV pilots/owners. Rick would be
> whole heartedly in support of such a program.
--
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Carb Fittings? Primer fittings? |
I need to rotate this 45 degree AN fitting but it is a "little" snug! See
picture. Needs to face to the rear. Before I crank it into two pieces, I
thought I would ask and see if perhaps the Allen Screw just above the
fitting (red arrow) might be locking it in place. I am thinking this is one
of the usual carb fittings with an O-Ring that is locked down with the large
nut (banjo fitting?) and the 45 degree AN fitting is just clocked 180
degrees from where I need it but it doesn't feel like you can just rotate it
an additional 180 without breaking something?
This looks like one of those things that is easy if you know and hard if you
don't! Any help appreciated.
Also, I have primer port fittings from Wix with a small pinhole (brass) and
some from the Spruce that are basically 2d AN fittings without any
restriction. (Came in the primer solenoid kit) Seems like a lot of
difference between the two and one would pass a lot more fuel than the
other. Any reason to favor one over the other? See pix, sorry for the
quality.
Thanks
Bill Schlatterer
7a engine/cowl
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: PAPSP - Pilot & Aircraft Proficiency & Safety Program (Was |
Safety)
On 12:39 2007-04-07 "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net> wrote:
> This is a great idea. However, they would be able to get to more
> people if their website didn't require Flash... Not everyone that
> needs aircraft insurance has a broadband internet connection...
Not only that, but those of us with computers with screen resolutions
larger than 1024x768 are forced to see a full-screen window with just a
1024x768 website in the middle (in my case, their content makes up less
than 1/3 of my desktop, and there's no way to enlarge it). Yet another
example form taking precedence over function in web design.
-Rob
Do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Safety (Was Real Men!...) |
I don't consider myself a dumb-a-- pilot, but I'm not perfect either.
I don't scud run, if it's IFR I file and fly IFR , but only if there
are no thunderstorms in my path. I never go below 1/3 tanks, and try
to avoid doing stupid things in an airplane weatherwise or otherwise.
So I'm all for those who want to contribute to this effort reminding
us all that even if we are the choir we all need to hear good
thing/bad things a lot to avoid slipping into the kind of habits
that may bite us.
Dick RV6A
At 11:53 AM 4/7/2007, you wrote:
>
>On 16:00 1969-12-31 Glen Matejcek <aerobubba@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > How could RVer's work
> > around this? I can see two possible avenues. First would be an FAA
> > approved / sanctioned / recognized body representing experimental
> > aviation running a safety program that issued some sort of completion
> > certificate, much like the formation fliers get.
>
>Maybe we've already got the answer, sort of, right here. We all keep logs,
>and those of us who go off and do "extra" things to improve proficiency
>usually have it logged in one way or another. Personally I log all of my
>formation, tailwheel, and glider towing in separate columns in my logbook,
>and I had to add those columns because they weren't there when I started.
>I've also been counting landings since I got my PPL, and they outnumber my
>flights by about 5:1 now. I know pilots for who that ratio is almost 1:1,
>they never fly circuits just for the practise.
>
>Would having your logbook reviewed annually be a good idea? Or maybe have
>the option of submitting the totals for your "extra" activities, to show
>that you're more than just flying straight-and-level from A to B all the
>time?
>
>-Rob
>
>
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