---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/19/07: 50 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:10 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Kevin Horton) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: What I Miss at SnF (John Huft) 3. 06:11 AM - Re: What I Miss at SnF (Dale Walter) 4. 06:50 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (SCOTT SPENCER) 5. 06:57 AM - Small Airport economic impact (Ray D. Congdon) 6. 07:08 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (ronlee@pcisys.net) 7. 07:22 AM - Re: What I Miss at SnF (John Huft) 8. 07:51 AM - Re: What I Miss at SnF (Brian Kraut) 9. 08:26 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 10. 08:55 AM - Re: Small Airport economic impact (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 11. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Terry Watson) 12. 09:05 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Rob Prior) 13. 09:14 AM - Re: What I Miss at SnF (Jim Carey) 14. 09:22 AM - Looking for advice (Dan Ross) 15. 10:06 AM - Re: Looking for advice (Bruce Gray) 16. 11:12 AM - Re: Looking for advice (Bruce Gray) 17. 11:12 AM - Re: Looking for advice (carlos) 18. 11:14 AM - Re: Looking for advice (carlos) 19. 11:37 AM - Small Airport economic impact, $2 bills (ronlee@pcisys.net) 20. 12:13 PM - User Fees and Patriotism (James H Nelson) 21. 01:39 PM - User Fees (jim & terri truitt) 22. 01:45 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joseph Larson) 23. 01:51 PM - Re: User Fees (Chuck Jensen) 24. 02:15 PM - Re: Looking for advice (Tom Gummo) 25. 03:17 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Terry Watson) 26. 03:24 PM - Re: Looking for advice (Joseph Larson) 27. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: User Fees and Patriotism () 28. 04:53 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Ken Howell) 29. 05:04 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joseph Larson) 30. 05:07 PM - Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings (Kelly Patterson) 31. 05:51 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 32. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings (Steve Eberhart) 33. 06:04 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 34. 06:09 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Jerry Springer) 35. 06:14 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 36. 06:26 PM - Re: Looking for advice (Bruce Gray) 37. 06:33 PM - Re: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings (Garry) 38. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 39. 07:23 PM - Phoenix April 23-26 (Dave Nellis) 40. 07:25 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 41. 07:30 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joe Larson) 42. 07:30 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joe Larson) 43. 07:36 PM - Pedal planes (Sherman Butler) 44. 07:41 PM - User fees and patriotism (jim & terri truitt) 45. 07:41 PM - Re: Looking for advice (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 46. 07:46 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Jeffery J. Morgan) 47. 08:46 PM - Re: Looking for advice (Bruce Gray) 48. 09:39 PM - Re: Pedal planes (Tom Gummo) 49. 10:14 PM - Re: Looking for advice (Tom Gummo) 50. 10:19 PM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Jerry Springer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:59 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism On 18 Apr 2007, at 21:44, Rob Prior wrote: > > On 16:02 2007-04-18 Kevin Horton wrote: >>> year over year. Compare/contrast that to the developments in >>> engine technology in motorcycles, boats, cars, etc. We're still >>> running the gas-guzzlers. >> >> Which in-production gasoline-powered cars have a brake specific fuel >> consumption lower than a fuel-injected Lycoming running lean of >> peak? With references please. > > I probably should have said "We're still running the gas-guzzlers, > as far > as the general public is concerned." There are Hybrid SUV's now > that get > gas mileage as good as a large, non-hybrid sedan, but people still > lump all > SUV's into one category, hybrid or not. > > But are you saying that Lycomings don't need improvement? Can't be > improved? Shouldn't be improved? Just because they're already pretty > good, that's no reason to just sit by and tell everyone else to > pull up > their socks. "The problem isn't aircraft engines, it's everyone > else!" > Imagine how far that would go in a public debate. > > Public perception of private aircraft owners is that we're a bunch > of rich > playboys, doing whatever we want. Much like the SU I doubt that it is possible to make much improvement in brake specific fuel consumption (i.e. how much fuel flow is required to produce a given amount of power) unless we move away from the Otto cycle. All gasoline-powered engines that I am aware of that had better fuel consumption numbers than a fuel-injected Lycoming were very complicated and heavy. Very complicated generally means expensive and unreliable. And heavier aircraft have higher induced drag, which means you need more power to fly the same speed, which increases fuel consumption. It is certainly possible to make aircraft that burn less fuel than our RVs. You do that by reducing aircraft weight, minimizing drag, and accepting lower cruise speeds. Then you can get the desired performance with a much lower power engine, and less power required for cruise means lower fuel consumption. But, anyone who was really interested in this wouldn't be building a classic RV. They might build an RV-12, or some of the high speed, non-LSA (too fast), European designs that use small engines. The high fuel costs in Europe has already pushed them in this direction. We in North America are 15 or 20 years behind. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:42 AM PST US From: John Huft Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF Great post Kyle! As one of the racers, I guess that was the ultimate reward for the hours of building. I sure miss it too, and I miss Sun n Fun too, because I won't go if there isn't a race. Maybe if a few more people felt as you do, and let their feelings be known, it could be held again. John Huft RV8 "Nuisance" Kyle Boatright wrote: > One thing that was always inspiring to me was the Sun 100. You got up > early on the Friday (?) of the show and watched the pilots roll out > their aircraft, all polished, with seams taped, a few "luxury" items > like VOR antennae and tailwheel springs deleted, and race numbers > taped on the side. They lined up from fastest to slowest, and then off > they went. > > A 350 horse Venture leaving prop contrails, an RV-4 flying all the way > down the runway in ground effect before beginning his climb, a couple > of folks in KR-2's and Sonerais screaming after them a few minutes > later, and last, but not least, a Kitfox or some other > not-particularly fast airplane going out just to see how fast 80 hp > will push a big winged, strutted Sunday flyer around a 100 mile course. > > Twenty minutes later, the fast airplanes are back. The Ventures, the > Swearingens, and the Glasair III's buzzing overhead at 500' and maybe > 350 mph, having traded a few feet of altitude for more speed. In > another minute, the 4 cylinder Glasairs and Lancairs arrive, with the > fast RV's and Rockets mixed in, followed by the slower RV's, which are > "only" doing 200 mph or so as the cross the finish line. A little > while later, the KR's and Sonerais buzz by too, followed by pokey in > his Kitfox. > > And the amazing thing is that these people built all of these > beautiful, fast airplanes in workshops and garages spread from one > coast to another. It gave me chill bumps every time. > > KB > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:40 AM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RE: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF We should get all the interested parties together and hold our own race(s). I bet we would have plenty of racers and spectators. I will be one. Let's get organized! If we have it Sun n Fun week we just have it at a nearby area that does not conflict with space. Dale RV6a -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Huft Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:34 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF Great post Kyle! As one of the racers, I guess that was the ultimate reward for the hours of building. I sure miss it too, and I miss Sun n Fun too, because I won't go if there isn't a race. Maybe if a few more people felt as you do, and let their feelings be known, it could be held again. John Huft RV8 "Nuisance" Kyle Boatright wrote: > One thing that was always inspiring to me was the Sun 100. You got up > early on the Friday (?) of the show and watched the pilots roll out > their aircraft, all polished, with seams taped, a few "luxury" items > like VOR antennae and tailwheel springs deleted, and race numbers > taped on the side. They lined up from fastest to slowest, and then off > they went. > > A 350 horse Venture leaving prop contrails, an RV-4 flying all the way > down the runway in ground effect before beginning his climb, a couple > of folks in KR-2's and Sonerais screaming after them a few minutes > later, and last, but not least, a Kitfox or some other > not-particularly fast airplane going out just to see how fast 80 hp > will push a big winged, strutted Sunday flyer around a 100 mile course. > > Twenty minutes later, the fast airplanes are back. The Ventures, the > Swearingens, and the Glasair III's buzzing overhead at 500' and maybe > 350 mph, having traded a few feet of altitude for more speed. In > another minute, the 4 cylinder Glasairs and Lancairs arrive, with the > fast RV's and Rockets mixed in, followed by the slower RV's, which are > "only" doing 200 mph or so as the cross the finish line. A little > while later, the KR's and Sonerais buzz by too, followed by pokey in > his Kitfox. > > And the amazing thing is that these people built all of these > beautiful, fast airplanes in workshops and garages spread from one > coast to another. It gave me chill bumps every time. > > KB > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:25 AM PST US From: SCOTT SPENCER Subject: RV-List: Re: User Fees and Patriotism Somebody else may have said this by now... I confess I've only skimmed the postings lately. But I *must* say: Anybody who has written to this list about user fees and has not yet written all their elected representatives should be ashamed! Scott N4ZW ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:11 AM PST US From: "Ray D. Congdon" Subject: RV-List: Small Airport economic impact Thought I'd relate this story; A local FBO at a small airport that is favored by gliders (BTW, Van has been spotted there several times!) attended a city council meeting where the fate of the airport was discussed and it was decided not to "Waste" any more money on airport maintence let alone finace upgrades out of city coffers. The FBO, being a very savy businessman, came up with an idea. He went to the local bank and ordered $4000 in $2 bills. When they arrived he, for the next month, used the $2 bills to make change for every transaction that he conducted at the field. At the next city council meeting, he stood and asked how many businessmen (and women, I'm sure, to be PC) had gotten a large flux of $2 bills? Since this is a small town, most of the business owners were in attendence at the meeting and many heads bobbed up and down and a general grumbling was heard as $2 bills are a pain for small, cash oriented businesses because they have to be handled seperately from all other cash. The cash drawers don't have a place for them, etc... "Well", he said, "each one of those $2 bills came from the airport...." the topic changed as the businesses realized how much money their local aiport put into the local economy... Oh, yeah, visit 1L9, Parowan UT sometime. They have a nice new taxiway, numerous new hangers, new paint on the runway, and a rather nice little campground on the strip, all built and maintained with local public $$$.... and don't forget to pick up a couple of $2 bills in your change when you fuel up! ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:23 AM PST US From: ronlee@pcisys.net Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > But are you saying that Lycomings don't need improvement? Can't be > > improved? Shouldn't be improved? I once calculated that I get better MPG with my O-360 RV-6A than I do with my 2001 Jeep Cherokee. Oh my. A SUV driver AND pilot. Waaaa waaa for the global warming chicken littles. See what covered much of North America around 15000 years ago then come complain about global warming. Ron Lee --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:13 AM PST US From: John Huft Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF Hi Dale It is being done, see... http://www.sportairrace.org/ It will take a while to build the national recognition that the Sun 100 had, but I am supporting it and hoping for the best. John Dale Walter wrote: > > We should get all the interested parties together and hold our own race(s). > I bet we would have plenty of racers and spectators. I will be one. Let's > get organized! If we have it Sun n Fun week we just have it at a nearby area > that does not conflict with space. > Dale > RV6a > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Huft > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:34 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF > > > Great post Kyle! > > As one of the racers, I guess that was the ultimate reward for the hours > of building. I sure miss it too, and I miss Sun n Fun too, because I > won't go if there isn't a race. > > Maybe if a few more people felt as you do, and let their feelings be > known, it could be held again. > > John Huft > RV8 "Nuisance" > > > Kyle Boatright wrote: > >> One thing that was always inspiring to me was the Sun 100. You got up >> early on the Friday (?) of the show and watched the pilots roll out >> their aircraft, all polished, with seams taped, a few "luxury" items >> like VOR antennae and tailwheel springs deleted, and race numbers >> taped on the side. They lined up from fastest to slowest, and then off >> they went. >> >> A 350 horse Venture leaving prop contrails, an RV-4 flying all the way >> down the runway in ground effect before beginning his climb, a couple >> of folks in KR-2's and Sonerais screaming after them a few minutes >> later, and last, but not least, a Kitfox or some other >> not-particularly fast airplane going out just to see how fast 80 hp >> will push a big winged, strutted Sunday flyer around a 100 mile course. >> >> Twenty minutes later, the fast airplanes are back. The Ventures, the >> Swearingens, and the Glasair III's buzzing overhead at 500' and maybe >> 350 mph, having traded a few feet of altitude for more speed. In >> another minute, the 4 cylinder Glasairs and Lancairs arrive, with the >> fast RV's and Rockets mixed in, followed by the slower RV's, which are >> "only" doing 200 mph or so as the cross the finish line. A little >> while later, the KR's and Sonerais buzz by too, followed by pokey in >> his Kitfox. >> >> And the amazing thing is that these people built all of these >> beautiful, fast airplanes in workshops and garages spread from one >> coast to another. It gave me chill bumps every time. >> >> KB >> * >> >> >> * >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:18 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF Sun N Fun ended it because of the insurance the year that I first took my Midget Mustang there. I was really looking forward to racing since I have never done it before and it was always one of my dreams weather I was going to be competitive or not. Hopefully they will get it back at SNF next year. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Huft Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:22 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF Hi Dale It is being done, see... http://www.sportairrace.org/ It will take a while to build the national recognition that the Sun 100 had, but I am supporting it and hoping for the best. John Dale Walter wrote: > > We should get all the interested parties together and hold our own race(s). > I bet we would have plenty of racers and spectators. I will be one. Let's > get organized! If we have it Sun n Fun week we just have it at a nearby area > that does not conflict with space. > Dale > RV6a > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Huft > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:34 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF > > > Great post Kyle! > > As one of the racers, I guess that was the ultimate reward for the hours > of building. I sure miss it too, and I miss Sun n Fun too, because I > won't go if there isn't a race. > > Maybe if a few more people felt as you do, and let their feelings be > known, it could be held again. > > John Huft > RV8 "Nuisance" > > > Kyle Boatright wrote: > >> One thing that was always inspiring to me was the Sun 100. You got up >> early on the Friday (?) of the show and watched the pilots roll out >> their aircraft, all polished, with seams taped, a few "luxury" items >> like VOR antennae and tailwheel springs deleted, and race numbers >> taped on the side. They lined up from fastest to slowest, and then off >> they went. >> >> A 350 horse Venture leaving prop contrails, an RV-4 flying all the way >> down the runway in ground effect before beginning his climb, a couple >> of folks in KR-2's and Sonerais screaming after them a few minutes >> later, and last, but not least, a Kitfox or some other >> not-particularly fast airplane going out just to see how fast 80 hp >> will push a big winged, strutted Sunday flyer around a 100 mile course. >> >> Twenty minutes later, the fast airplanes are back. The Ventures, the >> Swearingens, and the Glasair III's buzzing overhead at 500' and maybe >> 350 mph, having traded a few feet of altitude for more speed. In >> another minute, the 4 cylinder Glasairs and Lancairs arrive, with the >> fast RV's and Rockets mixed in, followed by the slower RV's, which are >> "only" doing 200 mph or so as the cross the finish line. A little >> while later, the KR's and Sonerais buzz by too, followed by pokey in >> his Kitfox. >> >> And the amazing thing is that these people built all of these >> beautiful, fast airplanes in workshops and garages spread from one >> coast to another. It gave me chill bumps every time. >> >> KB >> * >> >> >> * >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:23 AM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Al Gore said Global Warming is man made but a few years back a team of wonderful people made a recovery of a P-38, Glacier Girl, from a shaft depth of 268' of ice. Mr Gore, I hope it warms up! Then we could go get the rest of the planes. Jim RV9a Builder ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:07 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > >> > But are you saying that Lycomings don't need improvement? Can't be >> > improved? Shouldn't be improved? > > I once calculated that I get better MPG with my O-360 RV-6A than I do > with my 2001 Jeep Cherokee. Oh my. A SUV driver AND pilot. Waaaa waaa > for the global warming chicken littles. See what covered much of North > America around 15000 years ago then come complain about global warming. > > Ron > Lee > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. > http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ > > > -- > 5:32 AM > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:30 AM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: Re: RV-List: Small Airport economic impact That's a great idea. Commerce at work and economic impact on the up swing. Also, I like the cedit card idea that Terry McHenry has. I wonder if part of the transaction fee that the retailer pays for letting you use your credit card could be returned to the local business through a discount on his monthly statement, stating: "Thank your local Airport Commission - Commerce at work - AOPA and/or EAA" What does this group of rivet bangers think? Jim Fogarty RV9a Builder ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray D. Congdon To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: RV-List: Small Airport economic impact Thought I'd relate this story; A local FBO at a small airport that is favored by gliders (BTW, Van has been spotted there several times!) attended a city council meeting where the fate of the airport was discussed and it was decided not to "Waste" any more money on airport maintence let alone finace upgrades out of city coffers. The FBO, being a very savy businessman, came up with an idea. He went to the local bank and ordered $4000 in $2 bills. When they arrived he, for the next month, used the $2 bills to make change for every transaction that he conducted at the field. At the next city council meeting, he stood and asked how many businessmen (and women, I'm sure, to be PC) had gotten a large flux of $2 bills? Since this is a small town, most of the business owners were in attendence at the meeting and many heads bobbed up and down and a general grumbling was heard as $2 bills are a pain for small, cash oriented businesses because they have to be handled seperately from all other cash. The cash drawers don't have a place for them, etc... "Well", he said, "each one of those $2 bills came from the airport...." the topic changed as the businesses realized how much money their local aiport put into the local economy... Oh, yeah, visit 1L9, Parowan UT sometime. They have a nice new taxiway, numerous new hangers, new paint on the runway, and a rather nice little campground on the strip, all built and maintained with local public $$$.... and don't forget to pick up a couple of $2 bills in your change when you fuel up! ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 4/19/2007 5:32 AM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:36 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: User Fees and Patriotism Or maybe look at it this way: Anyone who uses the list to cast shame on those who don't share their values should be ashamed. Terry Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SCOTT SPENCER Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:49 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: User Fees and Patriotism Somebody else may have said this by now... I confess I've only skimmed the postings lately. But I *must* say: Anybody who has written to this list about user fees and has not yet written all their elected representatives should be ashamed! Scott N4ZW ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:29 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism On 7:07 2007-04-19 ronlee@pcisys.net wrote: > I once calculated that I get better MPG with my O-360 RV-6A than I do > with my 2001 Jeep Cherokee. Oh my. A SUV driver AND pilot. Waaaa > waaa for the global warming chicken littles. See what covered much > of North America around 15000 years ago then come complain about > global warming. Like I said in my first email: "Public perception of private aircraft owners is that we're a bunch of rich playboys, doing whatever we want. Much like the SUV market. Sticking our head in the sand won't make the outcry about frivolous pollution go away." Thanks for proving my point. Please, continue to stick your head in the sand and erect a "somebody else's problem" field around your life. Climate change is not a myth. -Rob ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:20 AM PST US From: "Jim Carey" Subject: RE: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF For what it is worth, the 99's run a lot of races other than the Air Race Classic. A lot of the local chapters run short 1 to 400 mile races on weekends. You may want to get some of the lady pilots/wifes to look into this. They were a lot of fun and I met some great people. Jim C RV8-A 1/2 done -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Walter Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:10 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF We should get all the interested parties together and hold our own race(s). I bet we would have plenty of racers and spectators. I will be one. Let's get organized! If we have it Sun n Fun week we just have it at a nearby area that does not conflict with space. Dale RV6a -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Huft Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:34 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: What I Miss at SnF Great post Kyle! As one of the racers, I guess that was the ultimate reward for the hours of building. I sure miss it too, and I miss Sun n Fun too, because I won't go if there isn't a race. Maybe if a few more people felt as you do, and let their feelings be known, it could be held again. John Huft RV8 "Nuisance" Kyle Boatright wrote: > One thing that was always inspiring to me was the Sun 100. You got up > early on the Friday (?) of the show and watched the pilots roll out > their aircraft, all polished, with seams taped, a few "luxury" items > like VOR antennae and tailwheel springs deleted, and race numbers > taped on the side. They lined up from fastest to slowest, and then off > they went. > > A 350 horse Venture leaving prop contrails, an RV-4 flying all the way > down the runway in ground effect before beginning his climb, a couple > of folks in KR-2's and Sonerais screaming after them a few minutes > later, and last, but not least, a Kitfox or some other > not-particularly fast airplane going out just to see how fast 80 hp > will push a big winged, strutted Sunday flyer around a 100 mile course. > > Twenty minutes later, the fast airplanes are back. The Ventures, the > Swearingens, and the Glasair III's buzzing overhead at 500' and maybe > 350 mph, having traded a few feet of altitude for more speed. In > another minute, the 4 cylinder Glasairs and Lancairs arrive, with the > fast RV's and Rockets mixed in, followed by the slower RV's, which are > "only" doing 200 mph or so as the cross the finish line. A little > while later, the KR's and Sonerais buzz by too, followed by pokey in > his Kitfox. > > And the amazing thing is that these people built all of these > beautiful, fast airplanes in workshops and garages spread from one > coast to another. It gave me chill bumps every time. > > KB > * > > > * __________ NOD32 2205 (20070419) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:08 AM PST US From: "Dan Ross" Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice Guys: I'm going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a nice guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, ranting and ravings about the FAA won't help me, just references/suggestions to help educate this guy. I have more to lose if we get into a pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:44 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice The easy solution, if you don't mind a 40 hour test period, is to tell him it's an experimental engine/prop combo and to consider it as such. If you really want a 25 hour test period, have both the TC's for the prop and engine on hand. Do an AD search on your engine. Note the compliance of each AD. Have an A/P sign off your prop install, and ignore what he said about maintenance, as long as he doesn't try to screw you with a restrictive AW cert. You may still be in a pissing contest. Next time use an ABDER, they're much more understanding and knowledgeable. You might also call the EAA and ask the tech support folks for help. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Ross Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:19 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice Guys: I'm going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a nice guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, ranting and ravings about the FAA won't help me, just references/suggestions to help educate this guy. I have more to lose if we get into a pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:02 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Dan, The closer I read your message, the more I think you may have a real problem. It's obvious that someone else at the FSDO is feeding this guy worthless and wrong information about experimentals, otherwise he would of told you about the A&P, certified parts, and A&P maitenance requirement (all wrong bye the way) on the first visit. I think he's going to ask/tell you to remove the engine data plate if you want an experimental engine. Don't remove it. Call the EAA, they have some good stuff on their website, if you're a member. They also have an ABDER lookup. See if you can get one and then cancell the FSDO guy. Otherwise I fear you'll have to go over his head. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Ross Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:19 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice Guys: I'm going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a nice guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, ranting and ravings about the FAA won't help me, just references/suggestions to help educate this guy. I have more to lose if we get into a pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:03 AM PST US From: carlos Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Bruce Gray wrote: > The easy solution, if you don't mind a 40 hour test period, is to tell > him it's an experimental engine/prop combo and to consider it as such. > If you really want a 25 hour test period, have both the TC's for the > prop and engine on hand. Do an AD search on your engine. Note the > compliance of each AD. Have an A/P sign off your prop install, and > ignore what he said about maintenance, as long as he doesn't try to > screw you with a restrictive AW cert. You may still be in a pissing > contest. > Next time use an ABDER, they're much more understanding and knowledgeable. > You might also call the EAA and ask the tech support folks for help. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Dan Ross > *Sent:* Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:19 PM > *To:* rv-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RV-List: Looking for advice > > Guys: > > Im going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. > The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection > and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area > and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put > if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has > since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the > Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called > again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have > to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only > certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this > guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a > nice guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or > materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, > ranting and ravings about the FAA wont help me, just > references/suggestions to help educate this guy. I have more to > lose if we get into a pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan > > Do Not Archive > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > * > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sorry Bruce...ADBER stands for? I'm learning... Carlos in AZ RV7A - N174PP reserved Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:23 AM PST US From: carlos Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Meant to type ABDER not ADBER. Sorry for the fat finger typo! Carlos Do not archive // -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers, LLC 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:23 AM PST US From: ronlee@pcisys.net Subject: RV-List: Small Airport economic impact, $2 bills The FBO, being a very savy businessman, came up with an idea. He went to the local bank and ordered $4000 in $2 bills. When they arrived he, for the next month, used the $2 bills to make change for every transaction that he conducted at the field. > > At the next city council meeting, he stood and asked how many businessmen (and women, I'm sure, to be PC) had gotten a large flux of $2 bills? Since this is a small town, most of the business owners were in attendence at the meeting and many heads bobbed up and down and a general grumbling was heard as $2 bills are a pain for small, cash oriented businesses because they have to be handled seperately from all other cash. The cash drawers don't have a place for them, tc... "Well", he said, "each one of those $2 bills came from the airport...." the topic changed as the businesses realized how much money their local aiport put into the local economy... This should be relayed to AOPA and have them organize the same event nationwide. But include it to have pilots who fly places pay with $2 bills. --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:56 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism From: James H Nelson Rob, Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible increase. However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it becomes chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not check out facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed hysteria and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! Jim do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:51 PM PST US From: jim & terri truitt Subject: RV-List: User Fees OK. I normally just read quietly and keep to myself, but I have to weigh in on this. I'm as patriotic as anyone - I support the troops (more than just lip service), I like Toby Keith's music, I fly our county's flag at my home, I generally support the Republican point of view, but vote the person, not the party, I'm glad we kicked Saddam's ass, and I am a foe to anyone who wants to destroy this country (and I have taken several oaths to that effect). I really don't see a connection between paying these fees and my patriotism. Am I missing something here? ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:43 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Sigh. Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to get? Those are in dispute, but not the basic facts that can all be measured and proven. Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions now rather than later? I know I would. As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the problem than bury my head in the sand. -Joe On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: > > Rob, > Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is > hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be > inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible > increase. > However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it > becomes > chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not > check out > facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed > hysteria > and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". > Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! > > Jim > > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:35 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees From: "Chuck Jensen" OK. I normally just read quietly and keep to myself, but I have to weigh in on this. I'm as patriotic as anyone - I support the troops (more than just lip service), I like Toby Keith's music, I fly our county's flag at my home, I generally support the Republican point of view, but vote the person, not the party, I'm glad we kicked Saddam's ass, and I am a foe to anyone who wants to destroy this country (and I have taken several oaths to that effect). I really don't see a connection between paying these fees and my patriotism. Am I missing something here? >>>Are you missing something? Not really. Patriotism and paying fees have the same link as supporting the troops and supporting the war. It's the usual linking of disconnected concepts. Just remember, if you don't like the Presdent, you must hate America. See how it works!!! Chuck Jensen ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:39 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Just get the paperwork signed, then follow the "correct rules", ie, as an experimental, you can do ALL the work on it, engine and prop included. While it would be nice if you could educate him, it is a waste of time. My DAR gave me the forty hour fly off time period, "So I could work on the engine and prop." Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Ross To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:19 AM Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice Guys: I'm going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a nice guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, ranting and ravings about the FAA won't help me, just references/suggestions to help educate this guy. I have more to lose if we get into a pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:39 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism We have been "running out of oil" for my entire lifetime which extends back to world war 2. I would have thought that by now intelligent people would realize that we don't "run out" of natural resources; as they become more scarce their price goes up. When that happens market forces find more or find substitutes and adjust the price accordingly. We ran out of $0.30/gallon gas way back in the sixties but we still have $3.50/gallon gas, if you buy right away. Too bad about that nickel cup of coffee I used to hear about when I was little. My biggest concern about climate change is not the effect it will have on the physical environment but its affect on the political environment. It is the best excuse those who don't believe in our freedom have had to further limit our options since the dire warnings about the coming ice age in the early 1970's. I will agree that the climate is changing. Everything changes. Which way, by how much, and by what cause and over what period of time is far too steeped in political agenda for the loudest answers to be taken seriously. We are in danger of running ourselves off a cliff like a bunch of Lemmings by adopting a politically correct but wrong solution to a problem that may turn out to be just part of the long term climate fluctuations caused by factors totally beyond our control. Scientific reports are now "negotiated" with political interests to arrive at so-called truth. I can hear the waves crashing on the rocks below. But, I guess we can "feel good about ourselves" as we run off the cliff. Terry Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions now rather than later? I know I would. As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the problem than bury my head in the sand. -Joe ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:31 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice I could be wrong on this, but I *think* what's going on is that to maintain the certified status of engine and prop, the FAA guy is right. As I remember, you can decertify the Lycoming by pulling the data plate. You *might* be able to decertify it in the engine logs, I don't know. But the engine remains certified only so long as it follows all the steps a certified engine must follow. This means an A&P involvement, including what props can be installed on it and how said props are installed. That's how I understand things, but I'm basing my opinion off memory from reading the books on all this before I even started building a long long LONG time ago. I could easily be completely wrong. Maybe someone on the list can confirm or deny what I've said. -Joe On Apr 19, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Tom Gummo wrote: > Just get the paperwork signed, then follow the "correct rules", ie, > as an experimental, you can do ALL the work on it, engine and prop > included. While it would be nice if you could educate him, it is a > waste of time. > > My DAR gave me the forty hour fly off time period, "So I could work > on the engine and prop." > > Tom Gummo > Apple Valley, CA > Harmon Rocket-II > > do not archive > > http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan Ross > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:19 AM > Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice > > Guys: > > > I=92m going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. > The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection > and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area > and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put > if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has > since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the > Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called > again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have > to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified > parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this guy is > more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a nice > guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I > can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, ranting and > ravings about the FAA won=92t help me, just references/suggestions to > help educate this guy. I have more to lose if we get into a > pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan > > > Do Not Archive > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http:// > www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http:// > forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:31 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in Fontana Calif. "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's influence?". Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of the smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they got rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer that the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ??? Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive >From: Joseph Larson >Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > >Sigh. > >Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check >*your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should >take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is >happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to >get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >due to man's influence?> >Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions >now rather than later? I know I would. > >As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the >problem than bury my head in the sand. > >-Joe > >On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: > >> >> Rob, >> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is >> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be >> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible >> increase. >> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it >> becomes >> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not >> check out >> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed >> hysteria >> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >> >> Jim >> >> >> do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:02 PM PST US From: "Ken Howell" Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Speaking of the privatized FSS, I had an interesting experience yesterday I'd like to share. A fellow instructor at Tipton airport (KFME - smack dab in the middle of the DC ADIZ) was attempting to file an ADIZ flight plan with Leesburg FSS. When he emphasized to the briefer that it was an "ADIZ" flight plan, the briefer seemed a little hesitant. My instructor friend stated "you know what an ADIZ flight plan is, right", to which the briefer responded, "No, I'm new here". I actually witnessed this as I was sitting next to him when he made the call. This is an area where you get intercepted by F-16's if you don't follow procedures to the letter, and here's a guy at Leesburg that doesn't have a clue about the area he's working. Pretty scary stuff. Ken Howell Glenwood, Maryland -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > ... It's > entirely likely that the best way to approach this is to stress that > we'll be handing over our nation's skies to a corporation. That's an > interesting concept since the sky -- even for people who don't fly -- is > a symbol of freedom and openness... and maybe there should be something > in this country that isn't owned by a corporation. I think Bob has hit the nail squarely on the head. The reason we have a harder and harder time distinguishing between the two major parties is that they are both serving the same corporate masters, not "we the people". Does anyone think for a minute that we'd have privatized FSS if there was not a large corporation making massive contributions to various politicians of both stripes? I don't in any way blame the corporations for this behavior - they are obliged to act in the best interest of their shareholders, and influencing the government in their direction with cash contributions provides an outstanding ROI. The problem is us - we allow this to happen. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:22 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? Sorry, that's not my style. We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we know what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of math I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will end up happening. What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do you really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I don't. It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want? It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based economy. Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have. I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12 years old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to keep it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to pick up my new Prius. Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so that there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more time to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but I do what I can. For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44 years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then, demand for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable. I don't think it makes sense to go down that path. -Joe On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, wrote: > > Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in > Fontana Calif. > "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the > absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is > due to man's influence?". > Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. > IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of > the smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well > they got rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the > total answer that the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. > NO. Why not ??? Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't > known are the absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What > percentage is due to man's influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. > KABONG Do Not Archive > >> From: Joseph Larson >> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > >> >> Sigh. >> >> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check >> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should >> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is >> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to >> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >> due to man's influence?> >> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions >> now rather than later? I know I would. >> >> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the >> problem than bury my head in the sand. >> >> -Joe >> >> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: >> >>> >>> Rob, >>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The >>> sun is >>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be >>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible >>> increase. >>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it >>> becomes >>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not >>> check out >>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed >>> hysteria >>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> do not archive >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:54 PM PST US From: "Kelly Patterson" Subject: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings I have seen both fairings and went straight to Bob's. The Van's fairings I saw use a male mold, which means the exterior is very rough - and that is the part you have to finish! Bob's uses a female mold which leaves an almost ready to paint finish. Your labor expended on Van's will exceed the Dollars spent on Bob's. Kelly Patterson RV-6A N716K 139 hrs PHX, AZ Time: 08:18:16 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings Hi Tom, I can not speak from experience either for or against the Van's intersection fairings. I have had a couple of friends express that they put a lot of effort into making them work. I can speak to the fit and finish of the 6A fairings made by Bob at Fairings Etc.. His product came very close to final fit right out of the box. In general I found his instruction sheets simple, clear and concise. I spent some time and effort making slight modifications. I did so primarily because I tend to be a wee bit anal about such things. Hmmm, do yah think maybe that had something to do with the 10 year build time {[B-). Bob's Fairings may be a bit pricey ?.. but the value was there for me. I attribute much of the compliments I get to his product. Starting and finishing are all part of getting there, Jim in Kelowna - The new governor works great, serious test flying now under way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:06 PM Subject: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings > > I just noticed the upper main gear intersection fairings in van's catalog. > I have all my other fairings and wasn't looking forward to making these. > But I'm building an RV-6A and the catalog identifies them only as RV-7A > fairings. I called van's and they said they hand't tried them on a 6A. I > would guess that they fit a 6A as well as they fit a 7A (however well that > is). > > Has anyone out there with a 6A tried the Van's Upper Main gear > intersection fairings for the 7A? Do they fit? > > I'm told Fairings etc. sells good ones, but they're twice as expensive. > > Thanks for any info. > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:24 PM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Excellent James.....Mars has been warming for about 10 years now due to the increased solar activity that you mentioned. I doubt our two little rovers are to blame. Now what is the best primer to use??? Just kidding. Do Not Archive Tom in Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "James H Nelson" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:11 PM Subject: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > Rob, > Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is > hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be > inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible increase. > However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it becomes > chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not check out > facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed hysteria > and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". > Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! > > Jim > > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:30 PM PST US From: Steve Eberhart Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings The vertical / horizontal stab fairing that came with my RV-7 finishing kit, a few months ago, was beautiful. Will only require priming and painting...no glass work at all. Van has apparently made a new mold, for this part anyway. Steve Eberhart Hanging the engine April 28th Kelly Patterson wrote: > > I have seen both fairings and went straight to Bob's. The Van's > fairings I saw use a male mold, which means the exterior is very rough > - and that is the part you have to finish! Bob's uses a female mold > which leaves an almost ready to paint finish. Your labor expended on > Van's will exceed the Dollars spent on Bob's. > > Kelly Patterson > RV-6A N716K 139 hrs > PHX, AZ > > > Time: 08:18:16 PM PST US > From: "Jim Jewell" > Subject: Re: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings > > > Hi Tom, > > I can not speak from experience either for or against the Van's > intersection > fairings. I have had a couple of friends express that they put a lot of > effort into making them work. > > I can speak to the fit and finish of the 6A fairings made by Bob at > Fairings > Etc.. > > His product came very close to final fit right out of the box. In > general I > found his instruction sheets simple, clear and concise. I spent some time > and effort making slight modifications. I did so primarily because I > tend to > be a wee bit anal about such things. Hmmm, do yah think maybe that had > something to do with the 10 year build time {[B-). > > Bob's Fairings may be a bit pricey ?.. but the value was there for me. I > attribute much of the compliments I get to his product. > > Starting and finishing are all part of getting there, > > Jim in Kelowna - The new governor works great, serious test flying now > under > way. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:06 PM > Subject: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings > > >> >> I just noticed the upper main gear intersection fairings in van's >> catalog. >> I have all my other fairings and wasn't looking forward to making these. >> But I'm building an RV-6A and the catalog identifies them only as RV-7A >> fairings. I called van's and they said they hand't tried them on a >> 6A. I >> would guess that they fit a 6A as well as they fit a 7A (however well >> that >> is). >> >> Has anyone out there with a 6A tried the Van's Upper Main gear >> intersection fairings for the 7A? Do they fit? >> >> I'm told Fairings etc. sells good ones, but they're twice as expensive. >> >> Thanks for any info. >> -- >> Tom Sargent, RV-6A ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:24 PM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Where are all the experts who predicted Global Cooling in the late 70's???? They wanted NASA to consider a ring of mirrors in space to heat the earth since we were apt to be buried under 100 foot of ice as far south as northern Alabama by 2040. Are we warming? Absolutely and so is Mars which also a fact. Do not Archive Tom in Ohio PS..... I like PPG K-36 Primer. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > Sigh. > > Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check > *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should take > them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is happening. > That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. How big has > the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's influence? Will > it continue? How bad is it going to get? Those are in dispute, but not > the basic facts that can all be measured and proven. > > Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions now > rather than later? I know I would. > > As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the problem > than bury my head in the sand. > > -Joe > > On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: > >> >> Rob, >> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is >> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be >> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible increase. >> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it becomes >> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not check out >> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed hysteria >> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >> >> Jim >> >> >> do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:56 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Joseph Larson wrote: > > Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or > let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? > > Sorry, that's not my style. > We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN. All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use more such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke. Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc. do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:23 PM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment than an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly toxic batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the cleaner fuel burn. Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of emotional tirades. Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and you'll feel better in the morning. Tom in Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's > follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? > > Sorry, that's not my style. > > We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of > billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we know > what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of math > I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will end > up happening. > > What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do you > really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I don't. > It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want? > > It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based economy. > Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill > yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have. > > I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12 years > old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to keep > it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to pick > up my new Prius. > > Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so that > there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more time > to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but I do > what I can. > > For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44 > years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then, demand > for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable. > > I don't think it makes sense to go down that path. > > -Joe > > On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, wrote: > >> >> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in Fontana >> Calif. >> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due >> to man's influence?". >> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. >> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of the >> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they got >> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer that >> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ??? >> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. >> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's >> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive >> >>> From: Joseph Larson >>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism >> >>> >>> Sigh. >>> >>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check >>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should >>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is >>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to >>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>> due to man's influence?> >>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions >>> now rather than later? I know I would. >>> >>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the >>> problem than bury my head in the sand. >>> >>> -Joe >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Rob, >>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is >>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be >>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible >>>> increase. >>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it >>>> becomes >>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not >>>> check out >>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed >>>> hysteria >>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> do not archive >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:42 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Amature Built Designated Engineering Represenative, he can inspect, sign-off, and issue an AW cert just like the FSDO. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of carlos Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Meant to type ABDER not ADBER. Sorry for the fat finger typo! Carlos Do not archive // -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers, LLC 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:23 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings The gear leg to fuselage intersection fairings I got from Vans, are unusable junk. I'll have to throw them away and order a decent set from Fairings-Etc. Van does well with metal, but his (actually a sub contractor) fiberglass parts are not up to par for a company of this caliber. On a related subject, I've enjoyed looking at close to 100 or more beautiful RV's at Sun N'Fun this week. What surprised me somewhat was that I only saw one RV with Sam James cowlings/plenums. Although I'm not flying yet, it seemed like a "no brainer" to delete the Vans cowls from my firewall forward kit, and order the Sam James cowls. Sam claims better cooling and 10-12 MPH faster with his cowls. Is there something I'm missing here? Garry Stout RV-7A "almost" finished Zephyrhills Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Eberhart" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:52 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings > > The vertical / horizontal stab fairing that came with my RV-7 finishing > kit, a few months ago, was beautiful. Will only require priming and > painting...no glass work at all. Van has apparently made a new mold, for > this part anyway. > > Steve Eberhart > Hanging the engine April 28th > > Kelly Patterson wrote: >> >> I have seen both fairings and went straight to Bob's. The Van's fairings >> I saw use a male mold, which means the exterior is very rough - and that >> is the part you have to finish! Bob's uses a female mold which leaves an >> almost ready to paint finish. Your labor expended on Van's will exceed >> the Dollars spent on Bob's. >> >> Kelly Patterson >> RV-6A N716K 139 hrs >> PHX, AZ >> >> >> Time: 08:18:16 PM PST US >> From: "Jim Jewell" >> Subject: Re: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings >> >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> I can not speak from experience either for or against the Van's >> intersection >> fairings. I have had a couple of friends express that they put a lot of >> effort into making them work. >> >> I can speak to the fit and finish of the 6A fairings made by Bob at >> Fairings >> Etc.. >> >> His product came very close to final fit right out of the box. In general >> I >> found his instruction sheets simple, clear and concise. I spent some time >> and effort making slight modifications. I did so primarily because I tend >> to >> be a wee bit anal about such things. Hmmm, do yah think maybe that had >> something to do with the 10 year build time {[B-). >> >> Bob's Fairings may be a bit pricey ?.. but the value was there for me. I >> attribute much of the compliments I get to his product. >> >> Starting and finishing are all part of getting there, >> >> Jim in Kelowna - The new governor works great, serious test flying now >> under >> way. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:06 PM >> Subject: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings >> >> >>> >>> I just noticed the upper main gear intersection fairings in van's >>> catalog. >>> I have all my other fairings and wasn't looking forward to making these. >>> But I'm building an RV-6A and the catalog identifies them only as RV-7A >>> fairings. I called van's and they said they hand't tried them on a 6A. >>> I >>> would guess that they fit a 6A as well as they fit a 7A (however well >>> that >>> is). >>> >>> Has anyone out there with a 6A tried the Van's Upper Main gear >>> intersection fairings for the 7A? Do they fit? >>> >>> I'm told Fairings etc. sells good ones, but they're twice as expensive. >>> >>> Thanks for any info. >>> -- >>> Tom Sargent, RV-6A > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:48 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings maybe the claim is not much more than a claim but the actual extra work required to make them work is an undeniable fact and just not worth it? I really don't know but I've never heard any other RV pilot in person mention that upon further review they wish they had gone that route. They do look cool, I'll admit, but if it they were really that much better performance wise then I'd think Van himself would have been tempted to try the style on at least just one plane just for the heck of it after all these years. -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Garry" > > The gear leg to fuselage intersection fairings I got from Vans, are unusable > junk. I'll have to throw them away and order a decent set from > Fairings-Etc. Van does well with metal, but his (actually a sub contractor) > fiberglass parts are not up to par for a company of this caliber. > > On a related subject, I've enjoyed looking at close to 100 or more beautiful > RV's at Sun N'Fun this week. What surprised me somewhat was that I only saw > one RV with Sam James cowlings/plenums. Although I'm not flying yet, it > seemed like a "no brainer" to delete the Vans cowls from my firewall forward > kit, and order the Sam James cowls. Sam claims better cooling and 10-12 MPH > faster with his cowls. Is there something I'm missing here? > > Garry Stout > RV-7A "almost" finished > Zephyrhills Florida > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Eberhart" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings > > > > > > The vertical / horizontal stab fairing that came with my RV-7 finishing > > kit, a few months ago, was beautiful. Will only require priming and > > painting...no glass work at all. Van has apparently made a new mold, for > > this part anyway. > > > > Steve Eberhart > > Hanging the engine April 28th > > > > Kelly Patterson wrote: > >> > >> I have seen both fairings and went straight to Bob's. The Van's fairings > >> I saw use a male mold, which means the exterior is very rough - and that > >> is the part you have to finish! Bob's uses a female mold which leaves an > >> almost ready to paint finish. Your labor expended on Van's will exceed > >> the Dollars spent on Bob's. > >> > >> Kelly Patterson > >> RV-6A N716K 139 hrs > >> PHX, AZ > >> > >> > >> Time: 08:18:16 PM PST US > >> From: "Jim Jewell" > >> Subject: Re: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings > >> > >> > >> Hi Tom, > >> > >> I can not speak from experience either for or against the Van's > >> intersection > >> fairings. I have had a couple of friends express that they put a lot of > >> effort into making them work. > >> > >> I can speak to the fit and finish of the 6A fairings made by Bob at > >> Fairings > >> Etc.. > >> > >> His product came very close to final fit right out of the box. In general > >> I > >> found his instruction sheets simple, clear and concise. I spent some time > >> and effort making slight modifications. I did so primarily because I tend > >> to > >> be a wee bit anal about such things. Hmmm, do yah think maybe that had > >> something to do with the 10 year build time {[B-). > >> > >> Bob's Fairings may be a bit pricey ?.. but the value was there for me. I > >> attribute much of the compliments I get to his product. > >> > >> Starting and finishing are all part of getting there, > >> > >> Jim in Kelowna - The new governor works great, serious test flying now > >> under > >> way. > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314" > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:06 PM > >> Subject: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings > >> > >> > >>> > >>> I just noticed the upper main gear intersection fairings in van's > >>> catalog. > >>> I have all my other fairings and wasn't looking forward to making these. > >>> But I'm building an RV-6A and the catalog identifies them only as RV-7A > >>> fairings. I called van's and they said they hand't tried them on a 6A. > >>> I > >>> would guess that they fit a 6A as well as they fit a 7A (however well > >>> that > >>> is). > >>> > >>> Has anyone out there with a 6A tried the Van's Upper Main gear > >>> intersection fairings for the 7A? Do they fit? > >>> > >>> I'm told Fairings etc. sells good ones, but they're twice as expensive. > >>> > >>> Thanks for any info. > >>> -- > >>> Tom Sargent, RV-6A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
maybe the claim is not much more than a claim but the actual extra work required to make them work is an undeniable fact and just not worth it?
 
I really don't know but I've never heard any other RV pilot in person mention that upon further review they wish they had gone that route.  They do look cool, I'll admit, but if it they were really that much better performance wise then I'd think Van himself would have been tempted to try the style on at least just one plane just for the heck of it after all these years.
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>

> --> RV-List message posted by: "Garry"
>
> The gear leg to fuselage intersection fairings I got from Vans, are unusable
> junk. I'll have to throw them away and order a decent set from
> Fairings-Etc. Van does well with metal, but his (actually a sub contractor)
> fiberglass parts are not up to par for a company of this caliber.
>
> On a related subject, I've enjoyed looking at close to 100 or more beautiful
> RV's at Sun N'Fun this week. What surprised me somewhat was that I only saw
> one RV with Sam James cowlings/plenums. Although I'm not flying yet, it
> seemed like a "no brainer" to delete the Vans cowls from my firewall forward
> kit, and order the Sam James cowls. Sam clai ms bet ter cooling and 10-12 MPH
> faster with his cowls. Is there something I'm missing here?
>
> Garry Stout
> RV-7A "almost" finished
> Zephyrhills Florida
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Eberhart"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vans vs. Bobs Fairings
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Steve Eberhart
> >
> > The vertical / horizontal stab fairing that came with my RV-7 finishing
> > kit, a few months ago, was beautiful. Will only require priming and
> > painting...no glass work at all. Van has apparently made a new mold, for
> > this part anyway.
> >
> > Steve Eberhart
> > Hanging the engine April 28th
> >
> > Kelly Patterson wrote:
&g t; > ;> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kelly Patterson"
> >>
> >> I have seen both fairings and went straight to Bob's. The Van's fairings
> >> I saw use a male mold, which means the exterior is very rough - and that
> >> is the part you have to finish! Bob's uses a female mold which leaves an
> >> almost ready to paint finish. Your labor expended on Van's will exceed
> >> the Dollars spent on Bob's.
> >>
> >> Kelly Patterson
> >> RV-6A N716K 139 hrs
> >> PHX, AZ
> >>
> >>
> >> Time: 08:18:16 PM PST US
> >> From: "Jim Jewell"
> >> Subject: Re: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Tom,
> >>
> >> I can not speak from experience either for or against the V an's < BR>> >> intersection
> >> fairings. I have had a couple of friends express that they put a lot of
> >> effort into making them work.
> >>
> >> I can speak to the fit and finish of the 6A fairings made by Bob at
> >> Fairings
> >> Etc..
> >>
> >> His product came very close to final fit right out of the box. In general
> >> I
> >> found his instruction sheets simple, clear and concise. I spent some time
> >> and effort making slight modifications. I did so primarily because I tend
> >> to
> >> be a wee bit anal about such things. Hmmm, do yah think maybe that had
> >> something to do with the 10 year build time {[B-).
> >>
> >> Bob's Fairings may be a bit pricey ?.. but the value was there for me. I
> >> attribute much of the compliments I get to his produc t.
> >>
> >> Starting and finishing are all part of getting there,
> >>
> >> Jim in Kelowna - The new governor works great, serious test flying now
> >> under
> >> way.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarg314"
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:06 PM
> >> Subject: RV-List: vans' upper main gear intersection fairings
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I just noticed the upper main gear intersection fairings in van's
> >>> catalog.
> >>> I have all my other fairings and wasn't looking forward to making these.
> >>> But I'm building an RV-6A and the catalog identifies them only as RV-7A
> >>> fairings. I called van's and they said they hand't tried them on a 6A.
> >>> I > toshar
________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:53 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: RV-List: Phoenix April 23-26 I am flying to Phoenix, AZ on April 23 through 26 to do some electrical work for a friend on his new house. Yes, he is flying me from MI to AZ. Anyways, I might be available eves or Wednesday and Thursday all day, don't know exactly for sure to visit some RV'ers or maybe go flying. I will have some cash for fuel. If you would like some company from a po' boy from MI, let me know. I would like to meet some RV'ers out west. BTW, he lives 20 minutes NW of Sky Harbor Intl. Dave Nellis 7A Slider N410DN (Res.) __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:05 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is used to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what you get because it is "green" Dan N289DT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy Ervin Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment than an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly toxic batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the cleaner fuel burn. Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of emotional tirades. Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and you'll feel better in the morning. Tom in Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's > follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? > > Sorry, that's not my style. > > We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of > billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we know > what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of math > I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will end > up happening. > > What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do you > really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I don't. > It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want? > > It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based economy. > Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill > yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have. > > I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12 years > old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to keep > it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to pick > up my new Prius. > > Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so that > there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more time > to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but I do > what I can. > > For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44 > years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then, demand > for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable. > > I don't think it makes sense to go down that path. > > -Joe > > On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, wrote: > >> >> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in Fontana >> Calif. >> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due >> to man's influence?". >> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. >> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of the >> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they got >> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer that >> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ??? >> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. >> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's >> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive >> >>> From: Joseph Larson >>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism >> >>> >>> Sigh. >>> >>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check >>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should >>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is >>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to >>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>> due to man's influence?> >>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions >>> now rather than later? I know I would. >>> >>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the >>> problem than bury my head in the sand. >>> >>> -Joe >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Rob, >>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is >>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be >>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible >>>> increase. >>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it >>>> becomes >>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not >>>> check out >>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed >>>> hysteria >>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> do not archive >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:37 PM PST US From: Joe Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. Then get back to me. Here's a quick link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak And here's a book at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1 This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college professors I had. You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard science, not blind opinion. -J On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote: > > Joseph Larson wrote: > >> >> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or >> let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? >> >> Sorry, that's not my style. >> > We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not > if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN. > All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange > program or believe that you can use more by buying the right to > use more > such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke. > > Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better > discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are > welling to > let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us > which light bulbs we must use etc. > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:51 PM PST US From: Joe Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Yeah, I've heard that argument. It's interesting but never is backed up by real science. -J On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:14 PM, Tom & Cathy Ervin wrote: > > > Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the > environment than an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to > manufacture the highly toxic batteries and the eventual disposal of > the same is not offset by the cleaner fuel burn. > Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of > emotional tirades. > > Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer > and you'll feel better in the morning. Tom in Ohio > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > >> >> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or >> let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? >> >> Sorry, that's not my style. >> >> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple >> of billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, >> and we know what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, >> apply the level of math I learned in grade school, and it's not >> hard to figure out what will end up happening. >> >> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? >> Do you really believe it's only going to take more money to buy >> it? I don't. It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want? >> >> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based >> economy. Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go >> ahead, kill yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need >> anything you have. >> >> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12 >> years old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into >> it to keep it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 >> minutes, I get to pick up my new Prius. >> >> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil >> so that there will be more oil available for other uses and to >> give us more time to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't >> do all that much, but I do what I can. >> >> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm >> 44 years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and >> then, demand for a scarce resource will make geopolitics >> increasingly unstable. >> >> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path. >> >> -Joe >> >> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, wrote: >> >>> >>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in >>> Fontana Calif. >>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage >>> is due to man's influence?". >>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. >>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% >>> of the smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) >>> Well they got rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it >>> the total answer that the "Experts" all agreed would solve the >>> problem. NO. Why not ??? Because the: "That's a basic fact. >>> What isn't known are the absolutes. How big has the change been >>> so far? What percentage is due to man's influence?" AND they >>> still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive >>> >>>> From: Joseph Larson >>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT >>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism >>> >>>> >>>> Sigh. >>>> >>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should >>>> check >>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you >>>> should >>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is >>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to >>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>>> due to man's influence?> >>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see >>>> solutions >>>> now rather than later? I know I would. >>>> >>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the >>>> problem than bury my head in the sand. >>>> >>>> -Joe >>>> >>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rob, >>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The >>>>> sun is >>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I >>>>> would be >>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible >>>>> increase. >>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it >>>>> becomes >>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not >>>>> check out >>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed >>>>> hysteria >>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> do not archive >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:11 PM PST US From: Sherman Butler Subject: RV-List: Pedal planes Anyone have any experience with pedal plane plans? I have seen the ones in EAA. I have not seen plans for a Bonanza or a RV. Anyone build them near Atlanta? I am thinking about building one for my Grandson for Christmas. Painting Bonanza magnesium this weekend. Sherman Butler RV-7a Wings Idaho Falls --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:52 PM PST US From: jim & terri truitt Subject: RV-List: User fees and patriotism Man, I'm getting too old for this stuff. You guys are killing me. This idea of user fees sucks. Period. I don't know what global warming has to do with the user fee idea, and neither do you, I think. If you like the idea of user fees, wait and see. I figure I pay a few bucks in taxes for each of the hundred or so hours I fly each year. The airlines fly millions of hours a year and pay millions of dollars. Sounds fair to me. They pass the costs on to the passengers - as it should be. And they use and wear and tear on the system a WHOLE lot more than I do. This user fee thing is just the politicos bowing to big business. It's a scam and a sham. Those of you who think it's a good idea - remember I (and countless others) told you so. And by the way, I feel I pay my fair share and I don't mind that. The airlines just need to pay their "fair" share. Under the present system, they do. Remember,these are the corporations who got 13 billion dollars after 9/11 to help them stay afloat. And some went bankrupt anyway. I say, let em go bankrupt. Someone like Ted Turner or Ross Perot will buy those airplanes and start a more efficient way of doing business. A huge detriment to the economy - I doubt it. It would even out in the long run. Capitalism - it's a great concept. Politicians tend to screw it up. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:54 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Bruce, I'm guessing you are actually talking about an AB DAR. Armature Built Designated Airworthiness Representative. Or at least I have never heard of an ABDER. More about the program here (EAA membership required).... http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/help/ab_dar.asp Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:26 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Amature Built Designated Engineering Represenative, he can inspect, sign-off, and issue an AW cert just like the FSDO. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of carlos Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Meant to type ABDER not ADBER. Sorry for the fat finger typo! Carlos Do not archive // -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers, LLC 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and fossil fuels. Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven conclusively. All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more tolerant of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still to be determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control lots, and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your master..... Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R. Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is used to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what you get because it is "green" Dan N289DT -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy Ervin Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment than an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly toxic batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the cleaner fuel burn. Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of emotional tirades. Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and you'll feel better in the morning. Tom in Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism > > Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's > follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? > > Sorry, that's not my style. > > We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of > billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we know > what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of math > I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will end > up happening. > > What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do you > really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I don't. > It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want? > > It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based economy. > Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill > yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have. > > I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12 years > old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to keep > it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to pick > up my new Prius. > > Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so that > there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more time > to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but I do > what I can. > > For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44 > years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then, demand > for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable. > > I don't think it makes sense to go down that path. > > -Joe > > On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, wrote: > >> >> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in Fontana >> Calif. >> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due >> to man's influence?". >> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above. >> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of the >> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they got >> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer that >> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ??? >> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the absolutes. >> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's >> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive >> >>> From: Joseph Larson >>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism >> >>> >>> Sigh. >>> >>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should check >>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should >>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is >>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to >>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the >>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is >>> due to man's influence?> >>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see solutions >>> now rather than later? I know I would. >>> >>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the >>> problem than bury my head in the sand. >>> >>> -Joe >>> >>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Rob, >>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun is >>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be >>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible >>>> increase. >>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it >>>> becomes >>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not >>>> check out >>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed >>>> hysteria >>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact". >>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!! >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> do not archive >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:41 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't even have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:41 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Bruce, I'm guessing you are actually talking about an AB DAR. Armature Built Designated Airworthiness Representative. Or at least I have never heard of an ABDER. More about the program here (EAA membership required).... http://members.eaa.org/home/govt/help/ab_dar.asp Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:26 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice Amature Built Designated Engineering Represenative, he can inspect, sign-off, and issue an AW cert just like the FSDO. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of carlos Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Meant to type ABDER not ADBER. Sorry for the fat finger typo! Carlos Do not archive // -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers, LLC 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:09 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Pedal planes Sherman, Jack and I just received the plans for the Pedal P-51 from EAA. We are going to change it so it looks like my Rocket. Change the angle of the rudder fuselage intersection, delete the airscoop, square up the wings some, etc. It might not be perfect but it sounds like in might look enough like an RV to pass as such. We haven't started yet so I can't comment of the ease of construction, the completeness of the plans, quality of the pre-made parts, etc. But I am sure that Jack will provide lots of comments to the list. :-) Hope to have this one ready by September for the grand-daughters visit. Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Sherman Butler To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Pedal planes Anyone have any experience with pedal plane plans? I have seen the ones in EAA. I have not seen plans for a Bonanza or a RV. Anyone build them near Atlanta? I am thinking about building one for my Grandson for Christmas. Painting Bonanza magnesium this weekend. Sherman Butler RV-7a Wings Idaho Falls ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:59 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice Well, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night but ... This is my opinion and I read some of the book before I ate it. :-) But if it is a homebuilt aircraft, you may install TSO equipment as well as non-TSO equipment. So if the engine loses it "certification" because you work on it so be it and you don't have to remove the Data Plate. As for the engine and prop, you as the builder or even the owner of a experimental aircraft MAY do ANY and ALL maintenance that you feel qualified to do. For example, as long as the engine is in an experimental aircraft it doesn't have to comply with an ADs. Is that smart, most likely not. Once the inspector leaves, he will have NO control of what you do, just make sure your insurance company is OK with the level of maintenance you plan to do. Once you remove the engine and or prop and want to sell them to someone as a certified engine, all the ADs have to be complied with, paperwork completed, and maybe even be inspected by an A&P. Until then, go fly and have a good time. It is much easier to get forgiveness than permission. BTW, other than replace spark plugs, change oil and replace the oil filter, I get an A&P to look over my shoulder while I do the work and definitely have him inspect all the work and sign off the log books. I may hate the dumb rules of the FAA but I am not really stupid (I value my life and any pax I carry). Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II 309 hours and loving it a lot. I do work on my engine and prop. :-) do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Larson To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice I could be wrong on this, but I *think* what's going on is that to maintain the certified status of engine and prop, the FAA guy is right. As I remember, you can decertify the Lycoming by pulling the data plate. You *might* be able to decertify it in the engine logs, I don't know. But the engine remains certified only so long as it follows all the steps a certified engine must follow. This means an A&P involvement, including what props can be installed on it and how said props are installed. That's how I understand things, but I'm basing my opinion off memory from reading the books on all this before I even started building a long long LONG time ago. I could easily be completely wrong. Maybe someone on the list can confirm or deny what I've said. -Joe On Apr 19, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Tom Gummo wrote: Just get the paperwork signed, then follow the "correct rules", ie, as an experimental, you can do ALL the work on it, engine and prop included. While it would be nice if you could educate him, it is a waste of time. My DAR gave me the forty hour fly off time period, "So I could work on the engine and prop." Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Ross To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:19 AM Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice Guys: I=92m going through the airworthiness inspection by the local FSDO. The guy is coming next Monday at 0900 to complete the inspection and paperwork. He happened by yesterday because he was in the area and had some time. He did most of the inspection and said to put if back together and be ready to run the engine on Monday. He has since called and said I needed an A&P sign off for installing the Sensenich propeller on the Lycoming (certified) engine. He called again and said that because the engine is certified, it would have to be maintained as a certified engine by an A&P and only certified parts or STC ed parts could be installed. I suspect this guy is more airline knowledgeable than experimental. BTW, he is a nice guy. My question is: does anyone know any FAA regs or materials I can gently suggest this guy to reference? Please, ranting and ravings about the FAA won=92t help me, just references/suggestions to help educate this guy. I have more to lose if we get into a pissing contest. Thanks in advance. Dan Do Not Archive href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.com - The RV-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:47 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism "The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil theories. do not archive Joe Larson wrote: > > Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. > Then get back to me. > > Here's a quick link: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak > > And here's a book at Amazon: > > http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ > 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? > ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1 > > This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the > University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my > undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college > professors I had. > > You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe > anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look > at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where > the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can > people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you > can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard > science, not blind opinion. > > -J > > On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote: > >> >> Joseph Larson wrote: >> >>> >>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or >>> let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist? >>> >>> Sorry, that's not my style. >>> >> We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not >> if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN. >> All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange >> program or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use >> more >> such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke. >> >> Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better >> discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are >> welling to >> let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us >> which light bulbs we must use etc. >> >> do not archive >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.