Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:02 AM - Re: Pedal planes (Dale Ensing)
2. 05:25 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joe Larson)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: Looking for advice (Chuck Jensen)
4. 06:11 AM - Re: Looking for advice (Bruce Gray)
5. 06:11 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
6. 06:16 AM - Re: Looking for advice (Darrell Reiley)
7. 06:37 AM - Painting fiberglass (george.mueller@aurora.org)
8. 06:37 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
9. 06:58 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joseph Larson)
10. 07:06 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Chuck Jensen)
11. 07:23 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joseph Larson)
12. 07:42 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
13. 07:50 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (John Jessen)
14. 07:59 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
15. 08:04 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
16. 08:06 AM - pedal plane (john schmidt)
17. 08:17 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Chuck Jensen)
18. 08:18 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
19. 08:25 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
20. 08:29 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
21. 08:32 AM - Re: Painting fiberglass (Frank Stringham)
22. 08:42 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (J. R. Dial)
23. 08:46 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Joseph Larson)
24. 09:01 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (John Jessen)
25. 09:07 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
26. 09:51 AM - Re: Painting fiberglass (Bob)
27. 10:18 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Terry Watson)
28. 10:23 AM - Re: Pedal planes (Brad Oliver)
29. 10:33 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Andy Gold)
30. 10:44 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (Tedd McHenry)
31. 10:50 AM - Re: pedal plane (Dale Ensing)
32. 11:24 AM - Re: User Fees and Patriotism (RAS)
33. 03:29 PM - RV-8 rudder pedals (John Porter)
34. 05:27 PM - Govenor oil leak (RSamuelson@aol.com)
35. 06:44 PM - Re: RV-8 rudder pedals (scott bilinski)
36. 08:57 PM - Looking for advice ()
37. 09:20 PM - Re: Govenor oil leak (Dale Walter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Pedal planes |
Tom,
Would love to see a picture when the pedal Rocket is completed.
Dale Ensing
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Gummo
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Pedal planes
Sherman,
Jack and I just received the plans for the Pedal P-51 from EAA. We
are going to change it so it looks like my Rocket. Change the angle of
the rudder fuselage intersection, delete the airscoop, square up the
wings some, etc. It might not be perfect but it sounds like in might
look enough like an RV to pass as such.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: User Fees and Patriotism |
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means?
Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science,
I'd love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use
real science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when
there's consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that
means a lot more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't
bother to even understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
> "The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
> just like global warming advocates use the term consensus,
> consensus is not science.
> I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
> going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or
> running out of oil
> theories.
>
> do not archive
>
>
> Joe Larson wrote:
>>
>> Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about
>> it. Then get back to me.
>>
>> Here's a quick link:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
>>
>> And here's a book at Amazon:
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
>> 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
>> ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
>>
>> This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the
>> University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my
>> undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best
>> college professors I had.
>>
>> You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to
>> believe anything the author of this book says. If you think he's
>> wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.
>> Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it.
>> Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this
>> stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based
>> on facts and hard science, not blind opinion.
>>
>> -J
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Joseph Larson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing?
>>>> Or let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems
>>>> exist?
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>>>
>>> We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably
>>> not if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT
>>> BY MAN.
>>> All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint
>>> exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying the
>>> right to use more
>>> such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
>>>
>>> Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better
>>> discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are
>>> welling to
>>> let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us
>>> which light bulbs we must use etc.
>>>
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Looking for advice |
Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't
even have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
Geez, Bruce, plastic plane and no EFIS? Maybe you have trouble with
acronyms, but here's a word you'll be familiar with--- LUDDITE!!!!! :-)
Chuck Jensen
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Looking for advice |
I'll admit that when I went to Aero Engineering school we used slide rules
instead of those new fangled electronic engineering calculators, but we
really saved money on batteries. I still have mine along with the belt
holster for it somewhere. Talk about geekie!
No, I'm not a Luddite but I do belong to the anti-EFIS crowd.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:51 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for advice
Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't
even have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
Geez, Bruce, plastic plane and no EFIS? Maybe you have trouble with
acronyms, but here's a word you'll be familiar with--- LUDDITE!!!!! :-)
Chuck Jensen
Do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but
none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power generated
by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to offset the
cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
falling victim to the marketing hype.
Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,
you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum they
burn!
Dan Lloyd
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
Morgan
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
<jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and fossil
fuels.
Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the
issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven conclusively.
All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more tolerant
of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still to be
determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without
regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control lots,
and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your master.....
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is used
to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what you
get because it is "green"
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
Ervin
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
<tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment
than
an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
toxic
batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
cleaner
fuel burn.
Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
emotional tirades.
Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and you'll
feel better in the morning.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
let's
> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>
> Sorry, that's not my style.
>
> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
know
> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
math
> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will
end
> up happening.
>
> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do
you
> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
don't.
> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>
> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
economy.
> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>
> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
years
> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
keep
> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
pick
> up my new Prius.
>
> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
that
> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
time
> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but
I do
> what I can.
>
> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
demand
> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>
> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>
> -Joe
>
> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
Fontana
>> Calif.
>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
due
>> to man's influence?".
>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
the
>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they
got
>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
that
>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
absolutes.
>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to man's
>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>
>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>
>>>
>>> Sigh.
>>>
>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
check
>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you should
>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>> due to man's influence?>
>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
solutions
>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>
>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>
>>> -Joe
>>>
>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rob,
>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The sun
is
>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I would be
>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>> increase.
>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>> becomes
>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>> check out
>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>> hysteria
>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Looking for advice |
I think AB DER stands for Amateur Built Designated
Engineering Representative... but then again I could
be wrong ;)
Darrell
__________________________________________________
Message 7
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| Subject: | Painting fiberglass |
I am finishing up my "practice airplane" a Zenith 701 before starting
either a RV7A or RV8A. I am not going to paint the airplane for a while
but I want to paint the fiberglass cowl silver to blend in with the rest
of the airplane. You guys work with a lot of fiberglass. What relatively
non-toxic (i.e., not polyurethane) primer/paint is good for fiberglass?
Also, I am 6' 3" 230 pounds. Should I go with a 7A or 8A?
George in Milwaukee
Message 8
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can
not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person
providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews
the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated
to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or
do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is
not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running
out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak".
Read about it. Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor
at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting
my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't
have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think
he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.
Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it.
Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.
Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and
hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net> <mailto:jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
Larson <jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So
let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and
deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's
remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are
changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon
footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying
the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that
would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when
people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the
point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: User Fees and Patriotism |
For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in. The batteries are
recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine. My
average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly :-) ) will
be 45-50 MPG. Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine
actually turned off. I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I
don't have a good feel for everything.
I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if
anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.
-Joe
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but
> none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
> I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power
> generated
> by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
> overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
> being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to
> offset the
> cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
> falling victim to the marketing hype.
> Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
> work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,
> you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
> Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum
> they
> burn!
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT RV10E
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
> Morgan
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>
> There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and
> fossil
> fuels.
>
> Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the
> issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
> what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven
> conclusively.
> All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more
> tolerant
> of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
> problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
> everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
> conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still
> to be
> determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without
> regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
> admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control
> lots,
> and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your
> master.....
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
> R.
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is
> used
> to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
> batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
> the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what
> you
> get because it is "green"
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
> Ervin
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
> <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
> Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment
> than
> an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
> toxic
> batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
> cleaner
> fuel burn.
> Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
> emotional tirades.
>
>
> Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and
> you'll
>
> feel better in the morning.
> Tom in Ohio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
>>
>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
> let's
>> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>>
>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>
>> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
>> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
> know
>> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
> math
>> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will
> end
>> up happening.
>>
>> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do
> you
>> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
> don't.
>> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>>
>> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
> economy.
>> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
>> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>>
>> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
> years
>> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
> keep
>> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
> pick
>> up my new Prius.
>>
>> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
> that
>> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
> time
>> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but
> I do
>> what I can.
>>
>> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
>> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
> demand
>> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>>
>> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>>
>> -Joe
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
> Fontana
>>> Calif.
>>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
> due
>>> to man's influence?".
>>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
> the
>>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they
> got
>>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
> that
>>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
> absolutes.
>>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to
>>> man's
>
>>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
> check
>>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you
>>>> should
>>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence?>
>>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
> solutions
>>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>>
>>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>>
>>>> -Joe
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob,
>>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The
>>>>> sun
> is
>>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I
>>>>> would be
>>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>>> increase.
>>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>>> becomes
>>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>>> check out
>>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>>> hysteria
>>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases
than mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea
and a lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly
and completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the
eruption phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house
gases. The particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone
interested in retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from
perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology,
not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can
not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person
providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews
the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated
to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or
do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is
not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running
out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak".
Read about it. Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor
at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting
my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't
have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think
he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.
Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it.
Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.
Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and
hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net> <mailto:jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
Larson <jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So
let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and
deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's
remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are
changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon
footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying
the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that
would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when
people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the
point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: User Fees and Patriotism |
Yes, the earth is self-regulating, but man has tossed out the old
equilibrium and is interfering with the process of finding another.
The earth regulates carbon dioxide through plants. Toss more CO2 in
the air and the plants say "yum!" and grow big and strong.
Tell me, how are the rain forests in south america doing lately? How
about the forests of Europe (gone for 1000 years, largely due to
shipbuilding to support conquest but also for heating)? And those
boundless forests of North America?
No one is saying that man is causing the entire rise. Folks are
saying man is contributing to the rise. And folks are concerned
about it. I feel those concerns are valid.
Ultimately, I don't care if the sea level rises 20 meters. I live in
Minnesota, 800+ feet above sea level. And I'm sure the folks in
Manhatten love the idea of looking more like Venice.
I don't think anyone is saying we're going to spiral out of control
and turn into Venus. But they are saying that given the current
trends, the overall temperature is going to rise by "several
degrees". They admit they don't know how much or if/when it will
stop. But they can do a pretty good job of stating what will happen
as the earth warms, starting with melting ice caps, rising sea levels
and nastier storm seasons.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non
> capital based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE"
> research can not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but
> the person providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray
> another, slews the findings. Research is much like accounting,
> numbers can be generated to prove any hypothesis, given enough
> money and time.
> It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of
> our neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our
> knowledge they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain
> that one. It has been stated that green house gases and
> specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the rise in
> temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and
> industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you
> state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more
> of these green house gases, than we will generate over several
> decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and for
> us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
> is a fallacy.
> The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an
> irritant it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs.
> How you say, well maybe first it would determine what we are
> susceptible to, like a virus. What better way to hasten our demise
> than to create a virus that destroys our immune system, and what
> better way to spread that virus than make it transmittable when we
> reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out with a common
> cold, or better yet avian flu...
>
> Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
> makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are
> trying to force feed America to sell products.
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT
>
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it
> means? Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
>
> As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science,
> I'd love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to
> use real science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when
> there's consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review,
> that means a lot more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who
> don't bother to even understand it before saying it's wrong.
>
> I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
> these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
>
> -J
>
> On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
>
>> "The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
>> just like global warming advocates use the term consensus,
>> consensus is not science.
>> I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
>> going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or
>> running out of oil
>> theories.
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe Larson wrote:
>>>
>>> Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about
>>> it. Then get back to me.
>>>
>>> Here's a quick link:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
>>>
>>> And here's a book at Amazon:
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
>>> 0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
>>> ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
>>>
>>> This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the
>>> University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting
>>> my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best
>>> college professors I had.
>>>
>>> You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to
>>> believe anything the author of this book says. If you think
>>> he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with
>>> it. Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes
>>> in it. Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am
>>> about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to hear your
>>> arguments, based on facts and hard science, not blind opinion.
>>>
>>> -J
>>>
>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joseph Larson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing?
>>>>> Or let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems
>>>>> exist?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>>>>
>>>> We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably
>>>> not if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT
>>>> BY MAN.
>>>> All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint
>>>> exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying
>>>> the right to use more
>>>> such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better
>>>> discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when people are
>>>> welling to
>>>> let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling
>>>> us which light bulbs we must use etc.
>>>>
>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://
>> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Of course there is always the diesels such as the Jetta TDI that get as good
of gas mileage, will probably out last a Prius by 3 fold which more than makes
up for any perceived advantages of a Prius, uses proven technology, and is considerably
less complex. Anyone ever see one of those strip mines or the number
of trips around the planet it takes to produce the batteries for a Prius?
Don't buy into the marketing hype and do your own research before you buy anything
that claims to be "green". Don't even get me started on "carbon credits",
give me a break. 98% of the world will not buy into "green" technologies unless
they are either 1) the only choice, or 2) cost effective compared to current
choices.
BTW, how the hell did this thread degenerate into a discussion on energy? Back
to the delete key.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in. The batteries are
recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine. My
average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly :-) ) will
be 45-50 MPG. Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine
actually turned off. I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I
don't have a good feel for everything.
I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if
anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.
-Joe
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but
> none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
> I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power
> generated
> by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
> overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
> being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to
> offset the
> cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
> falling victim to the marketing hype.
> Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
> work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,
> you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
> Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum
> they
> burn!
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT RV10E
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
> Morgan
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>
> There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and
> fossil
> fuels.
>
> Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the
> issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
> what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven
> conclusively.
> All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more
> tolerant
> of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
> problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
> everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
> conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still
> to be
> determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without
> regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
> admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control
> lots,
> and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your
> master.....
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
> R.
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is
> used
> to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
> batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
> the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what
> you
> get because it is "green"
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
> Ervin
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
> <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
> Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment
> than
> an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
> toxic
> batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
> cleaner
> fuel burn.
> Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
> emotional tirades.
>
>
> Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and
> you'll
>
> feel better in the morning.
> Tom in Ohio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
>>
>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
> let's
>> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>>
>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>
>> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
>> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
> know
>> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
> math
>> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will
> end
>> up happening.
>>
>> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do
> you
>> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
> don't.
>> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>>
>> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
> economy.
>> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
>> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>>
>> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
> years
>> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
> keep
>> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
> pick
>> up my new Prius.
>>
>> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
> that
>> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
> time
>> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but
> I do
>> what I can.
>>
>> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
>> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
> demand
>> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>>
>> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>>
>> -Joe
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
> Fontana
>>> Calif.
>>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
> due
>>> to man's influence?".
>>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
> the
>>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they
> got
>>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
> that
>>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
> absolutes.
>>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to
>>> man's
>
>>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
> check
>>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you
>>>> should
>>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence?>
>>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
> solutions
>>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>>
>>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>>
>>>> -Joe
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob,
>>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The
>>>>> sun
> is
>>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I
>>>>> would be
>>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>>> increase.
>>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>>> becomes
>>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>>> check out
>>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>>> hysteria
>>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Well, I don't discount either of your arguments, at the present, since
neither one of you have provided a link to scientific discussion one way or
the other. It's a he said, she said argument at the present.
We can all agree that DDT is not a nice chemical for the environment, yes?
Well, some want to bring it back into use because its downsides do not
outweigh its upsides. Wonder who and under what logic the upside argument
is made? Before I could take a stand on either side, I'd have to do some
reading. Thinking. Before I could do that, I'd need some reference
materials. Right now I'm hoping DDT stays on the shelf, but I have not
enough evidence to make a final decision.
So.... How about links to scientific discussion about these assertions, so
I can understand the arguments and the evidence supporting the arguments,
and take one or the other off my "wishful thinking" list.
John Jessen
#40328
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than
mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a
lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and
completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the eruption
phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases. The
particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone interested in
retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from perpetuating the
volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology, not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not
be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the
money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings.
Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any
hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do
not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated
that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the
rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and
industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for
us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green house
gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for
little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that
we control the environment is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it
will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well
maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus.
What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys
our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it
transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out
with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes as
much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force
feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or do
you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love
to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to
explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's consensus amongst
scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the
opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying
it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are these
perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like
global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to
clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. Then
get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the University of
Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my undergrad degree back
in the '80s. He was one of the best college professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe
anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look at
his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the
thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a heck
of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to
hear your arguments, based on facts and hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's
follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if you
are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange program
or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in
other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which
light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Going with the George Carlin thing, he also had a great comment that huma
ns are only here because the Earth wanted plastic.
Anyone who thinks we are killing the planet in the great timeframe of the
universe always makes me giggle. We haven't even been here for half a bli
nk. The Earth formed from galactic dust . When we are long gone after the
other half of that blink because we did something stupid, the planet will
not even notice that we were here. Science has an agenda the same as corpo
rations nowadays and it is the new sexy political platform. There is no wa
y around it. Climatologists are nothing more than statisticians that roll
the dice because there is absolutely no way anyone can say with absolute ce
rtainty what the planet was doing even 500 years ago. They have a infinite
simal data point to work with and a whole lot of technology that can produc
e thousands of "whatifs" to satisfy every angle a politician or corporation
could want.
We think we are smarter than we actually are for the most part and there
are more hypotheses than truths. Mankind also likes to believe we are the
center of everything, but it will be our arrogance and stubbornness that wi
ll ultimately make the planet say "what was that".
Now back to pounding rivets!
Do not archive
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital bas
ed, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not b
e guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the m
oney to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings. Resea
rch is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any hypothes
is, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our neig
hboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do no
t have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated t
hat green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the r
ise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and i
ndustrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for
us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green hou
se gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for
little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts th
at we control the environment is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it w
ill get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well ma
ybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus. What
better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys our i
mmune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it transmi
ttable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out with a
common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes a
s much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force
feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or do
you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love
to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science
to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's consensus amongs
t scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than th
e opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before sayin
g it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are these p
erfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like
global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to clu
tter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
wpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. Then
get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/ 0691116253
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216? ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=117703571
5&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the University o
f Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my undergrad degree bac
k in the '80s. He was one of the best college professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe anyth
ing the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look at his ev
idence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the thinking is
flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a heck of a lot sma
rter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to hear your
arguments, based on facts and hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's fo
llow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if you
are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange program
or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in o
ther forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which lig
ht bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
So in reality you have fallen for the marketing hype, you are not using
re-generative anything, you are using a gasoline engine to drive a
generator to store energy. But you more efficient because you are using
the inertia of the car on the braking cycle. In reality the engine is
just as in-efficient as others, based on the "true" BSFC, but it gains
because you are not wasting the momentum during stopping.
It is all marketing crap, gasoline engines are gasoline engines no
matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.
Just my less than .02
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in. The batteries are
recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine. My
average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly :-) ) will
be 45-50 MPG. Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine
actually turned off. I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I
don't have a good feel for everything.
I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if
anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.
-Joe
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but
> none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
> I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power
> generated
> by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
> overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
> being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to
> offset the
> cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
> falling victim to the marketing hype.
> Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
> work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,
> you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
> Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum
> they
> burn!
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT RV10E
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
> Morgan
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>
> There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and
> fossil
> fuels.
>
> Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the
> issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
> what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven
> conclusively.
> All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more
> tolerant
> of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
> problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
> everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
> conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still
> to be
> determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without
> regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
> admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control
> lots,
> and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your
> master.....
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
> R.
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is
> used
> to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
> batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
> the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what
> you
> get because it is "green"
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
> Ervin
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
> <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
> Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment
> than
> an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
> toxic
> batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
> cleaner
> fuel burn.
> Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
> emotional tirades.
>
>
> Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and
> you'll
>
> feel better in the morning.
> Tom in Ohio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
>>
>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
> let's
>> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>>
>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>
>> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
>> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
> know
>> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
> math
>> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will
> end
>> up happening.
>>
>> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do
> you
>> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
> don't.
>> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>>
>> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
> economy.
>> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
>> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>>
>> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
> years
>> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
> keep
>> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
> pick
>> up my new Prius.
>>
>> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
> that
>> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
> time
>> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but
> I do
>> what I can.
>>
>> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
>> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
> demand
>> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>>
>> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>>
>> -Joe
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
> Fontana
>>> Calif.
>>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
> due
>>> to man's influence?".
>>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
> the
>>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they
> got
>>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
> that
>>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
> absolutes.
>>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to
>>> man's
>
>>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
> check
>>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you
>>>> should
>>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence?>
>>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
> solutions
>>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>>
>>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>>
>>>> -Joe
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob,
>>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The
>>>>> sun
> is
>>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I
>>>>> would be
>>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>>> increase.
>>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>>> becomes
>>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>>> check out
>>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>>> hysteria
>>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
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I built a Christen Eagle pedal plane for my nephew way back when (he's
currently 6'3" and a soph at Univ. of Minn. -Duluth). Kid loved it, loved
building it. We included some 'tweaks' from the plans, cosmetic only (Paint,
panel). Marv Hoppenworth's plans are good, thorough, well thought-out, IMHO.
We bought the metal kit with it, pre-bent, pre-drilled, threaded holes
pre-tapped and ready to go. Well worth getting the metal kit, if time is a
factor (kids aren't growing any slower).
I think you could easily modify one of the planes (someone said the P-51) to
be an RV-lookalike. II don't know about the Bonanza; stretch a fuselage? I
guess it depends on your eyeball-engineering skills. There is little
structurally-critical to worry about; Bonanza looks would come in the
proportions, fuselage shaping, and painting (I imagine grey painted windows
on the fuse behind the pilot).
Had a chance to chat with Marv one Oshkosh; he told a story: he said he used
to buy the landing gear wheels for stocking the projects by bulk, such that
he had a 4-foot, by 5-foot high, by 10-foot long crate hanging off the end
of his full-size truck tailgate, from the wheel (distributor? manufacturer?)
guy, on the trip back to his home in Iowa. He said he made trips like that
about 2 times a year. If that's the case, I'd be interested as to how many
pedal planes are out there.
I think EAA has (at least some of) the rights to the plans now, because I
think he may have sold or donated the rights to EAA; that's my WAG, because
I haven't seen Marv's pedal plane ads lately. Marv is ANOTHER one of those
quiet, yet great, EAA guys. I find guys like that on the RV list, too. Makes
me happy just to hang around guys like that.
Once my RV is in the air, I've thought often of building pedal planes and
donating them to local charities for silent auctions. We, the
shrinking-numbers converted, need to infiltrate that non-aviating public at
every turn and opportunity; I think it's a way of planting that aviation
seed in the heads of kids (kind of a twisted Young Eagles program in a
sense, get 'em building and flying WAY early........ ;-)
Let us know how your RV pedal plane project turns out.
John Schmidt
St. Paul, MN
rv6 project n218pj res.
>
>________________________________ Message 43
>____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 07:36:11 PM PST US
>From: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
>Subject: RV-List: Pedal planes
>
>Anyone have any experience with pedal plane plans? I have seen the ones in
>EAA.
>I have not seen plans for a Bonanza or a RV. Anyone build them near
>Atlanta?
>I am thinking about building one for my Grandson for Christmas.
>Sherman Butler
>RV-7a Wings
>Idaho Falls
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
John,
In response to the request for links, here's some reading material for
you: http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/1998/98_10_22.html
<http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/1998/98_10_22.html> . Kilauea, in
Hawaii, is one of the more active volcanos in the world and a big
emitter of greenhouse gasses, however, it still puts out only 0.01% of
the world's greenhouse gases per year. It emits the same CO2 as 135,000
SUVs per year, and there are 128,000 vehicles registered in HI aone.
Another fact: CO2 concentrations in the atmospher have increased 20%
since the industrial revolution (a very short time period) and is
projected to increase another 20% by 2040. The impact of CO2 is well
understood. Only the degree of impact is speculative.
One can believe whatever one wishes, but that doesn't change the facts
and assessments and projections that grow out of those facts. Because
projections of impacts on the environment in the future are couched in
terms of probability, likelihoods and projections does not undermine the
quality or veracity of the underlying science. Any good scientist will
tell you he can predict the future, as long as you allow him to qualify
his predictions. In the financial markets, the past is not a reliable
predictor of the future, however, in science, the past, when properly
interpreted and understood, is an excellent predictor of the future.
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Well, I don't discount either of your arguments, at the present, since
neither one of you have provided a link to scientific discussion one way
or the other. It's a he said, she said argument at the present.
We can all agree that DDT is not a nice chemical for the environment,
yes? Well, some want to bring it back into use because its downsides do
not outweigh its upsides. Wonder who and under what logic the upside
argument is made? Before I could take a stand on either side, I'd have
to do some reading. Thinking. Before I could do that, I'd need some
reference materials. Right now I'm hoping DDT stays on the shelf, but I
have not enough evidence to make a final decision.
So.... How about links to scientific discussion about these
assertions, so I can understand the arguments and the evidence
supporting the arguments, and take one or the other off my "wishful
thinking" list.
John Jessen
#40328
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases
than mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea
and a lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly
and completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the
eruption phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house
gases. The particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone
interested in retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from
perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology,
not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can
not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person
providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews
the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated
to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or
do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is
not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running
out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak".
Read about it. Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor
at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting
my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't
have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think
he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.
Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it.
Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.
Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and
hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net> <mailto:jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
Larson <jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So
let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and
deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's
remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are
changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon
footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying
the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that
would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when
people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the
point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
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Message 18
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Maybe a little more research on both sides of the table, short term
versus long term ....
Volcanic activity has the ability to affect global climate on still
longer time scales. Over periods of millions or even tens of millions of
years, increased volcanic activity can emit enormous volumes of
greenhouse
gases, with the potential of substantial global warming (Pickering &
Owen,
1994; Rampino & Volk, 1988). However, the global cooling effects of
sulphur
dioxide emissions (Officer & Drake, 1983) will act to counter the
greenhouse
warming, and the resultant climate changes remain uncertain. Much will
depend upon the nature of volcanic activity. Basaltic outpourings
release
far less sulphur dioxide and ash, proportionally, than do the more
explosive eruptions.
My point is in all of this is that mankind has been here 10k years, and
we are just beginning to understand what is going on.
My intent was that people should research and look into things, just
like you stated. Go plant the tree's, because it will help offset the
thousands of acre's being destroyed every day in third world countries
for farming and cattle production.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases
than mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea
and a lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly
and completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the
eruption phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house
gases. The particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone
interested in retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from
perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology,
not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can
not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person
providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews
the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated
to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or
do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is
not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running
out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak".
Read about it. Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor
at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting
my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't
have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think
he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.
Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it.
Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.
Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and
hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net> <mailto:jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
Larson <jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So
let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and
deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's
remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are
changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon
footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying
the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that
would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when
people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the
point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
c
om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
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om/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
Too true...stir the pot!
How about alternative engines in RV10's?
LOL
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Of course there is always the diesels such as the Jetta TDI that get
as good of gas mileage, will probably out last a Prius by 3 fold which
more than makes up for any perceived advantages of a Prius, uses proven
technology, and is considerably less complex. Anyone ever see one of
those strip mines or the number of trips around the planet it takes to
produce the batteries for a Prius? Don't buy into the marketing hype
and do your own research before you buy anything that claims to be
"green". Don't even get me started on "carbon credits", give me a
break. 98% of the world will not buy into "green" technologies unless
they are either 1) the only choice, or 2) cost effective compared to
current choices.
BTW, how the hell did this thread degenerate into a discussion on
energy? Back to the delete key.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in. The batteries are
recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine. My
average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly :-) ) will
be 45-50 MPG. Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine
actually turned off. I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I
don't have a good feel for everything.
I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if
anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.
-Joe
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but
> none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
> I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power
> generated
> by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
> overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
> being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to
> offset the
> cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
> falling victim to the marketing hype.
> Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
> work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,
> you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
> Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum
> they
> burn!
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT RV10E
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
> Morgan
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>
> There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and
> fossil
> fuels.
>
> Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the
> issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
> what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven
> conclusively.
> All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more
> tolerant
> of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
> problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
> everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
> conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still
> to be
> determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without
> regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
> admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control
> lots,
> and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your
> master.....
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
> R.
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is
> used
> to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
> batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
> the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what
> you
> get because it is "green"
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
> Ervin
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
> <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
> Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment
> than
> an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
> toxic
> batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
> cleaner
> fuel burn.
> Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
> emotional tirades.
>
>
> Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and
> you'll
>
> feel better in the morning.
> Tom in Ohio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
>>
>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
> let's
>> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>>
>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>
>> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
>> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
> know
>> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
> math
>> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will
> end
>> up happening.
>>
>> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do
> you
>> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
> don't.
>> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>>
>> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
> economy.
>> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
>> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>>
>> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
> years
>> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
> keep
>> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
> pick
>> up my new Prius.
>>
>> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
> that
>> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
> time
>> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but
> I do
>> what I can.
>>
>> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
>> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
> demand
>> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>>
>> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>>
>> -Joe
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
> Fontana
>>> Calif.
>>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
> due
>>> to man's influence?".
>>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
> the
>>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they
> got
>>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
> that
>>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
> absolutes.
>>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to
>>> man's
>
>>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
> check
>>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you
>>>> should
>>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence?>
>>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
> solutions
>>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>>
>>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>>
>>>> -Joe
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob,
>>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The
>>>>> sun
> is
>>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I
>>>>> would be
>>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>>> increase.
>>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>>> becomes
>>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>>> check out
>>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>>> hysteria
>>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
I agree John and in my convoluted way that was what I was trying to say,
the thing that is difficult in the information age is that there is so
much of it that the average person has a most difficult time wading
through it all. A person can build a logical argument for or against any
subject and have the scientific evidence to back it up.
That is all I was trying to say, that anyone can build an argument any
way. In reality it is the dollars that talk and slew the scale for an
educated decision.
Dan
Lets get back to talking RV's
I mounted the gear for the last time yesterday and am waiting to move to
the painter.....
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Well, I don't discount either of your arguments, at the present, since
neither one of you have provided a link to scientific discussion one way
or the other. It's a he said, she said argument at the present.
We can all agree that DDT is not a nice chemical for the environment,
yes? Well, some want to bring it back into use because its downsides do
not outweigh its upsides. Wonder who and under what logic the upside
argument is made? Before I could take a stand on either side, I'd have
to do some reading. Thinking. Before I could do that, I'd need some
reference materials. Right now I'm hoping DDT stays on the shelf, but I
have not enough evidence to make a final decision.
So.... How about links to scientific discussion about these
assertions, so I can understand the arguments and the evidence
supporting the arguments, and take one or the other off my "wishful
thinking" list.
John Jessen
#40328
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases
than mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea
and a lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly
and completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the
eruption phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house
gases. The particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone
interested in retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from
perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology,
not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can
not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person
providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews
the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated
to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or
do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is
just like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is
not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not
going to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running
out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak".
Read about it. Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor
at the University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting
my undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't
have to believe anything the author of this book says. If you think
he's wrong, look at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it.
Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it.
Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff.
Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and
hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net> <mailto:jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
Larson <jpl@showpage.org> <mailto:jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So
let's just do nothing? Or let's follow the lead of some people and
deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's
remember, probably not if you are 44 years old now. climates are
changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon
footprint exchange program or believe that you can use more by buying
the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that
would be better discussed in other forums but it pisses me off when
people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the
point of telling us which light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Painting fiberglass |
George
Check out Aircraft Finishing Systrems products.
http://www.aircraftfinishing.com/
I am building a 7A...but those 8,s sure look like prime time!!!!!
Frank @ SGU RV7A "NDY"
>From: george.mueller@aurora.org
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Painting fiberglass
>Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:34:24 -0500
>
>I am finishing up my "practice airplane" a Zenith 701 before starting
>either a RV7A or RV8A. I am not going to paint the airplane for a while
>but I want to paint the fiberglass cowl silver to blend in with the rest
>of the airplane. You guys work with a lot of fiberglass. What relatively
>non-toxic (i.e., not polyurethane) primer/paint is good for fiberglass?
>
>Also, I am 6' 3" 230 pounds. Should I go with a 7A or 8A?
>
>
>George in Milwaukee
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as
$771/month*
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117
Message 22
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
I thought this was the RV List and not a political blog.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Maybe a little more research on both sides of the table, short term
versus long term ....
Volcanic activity has the ability to affect global climate on still
longer time scales. Over periods of millions or even tens of millions of
years, increased volcanic activity can emit enormous volumes of
greenhouse
gases, with the potential of substantial global warming (Pickering &
Owen,
1994; Rampino & Volk, 1988). However, the global cooling effects of
sulphur
dioxide emissions (Officer & Drake, 1983) will act to counter the
greenhouse
warming, and the resultant climate changes remain uncertain. Much will
depend upon the nature of volcanic activity. Basaltic outpourings
release
far less sulphur dioxide and ash, proportionally, than do the more
explosive eruptions.
My point is in all of this is that mankind has been here 10k years, and
we are just beginning to understand what is going on.
My intent was that people should research and look into things, just
like you stated. Go plant the tree's, because it will help offset the
thousands of acre's being destroyed every day in third world countries
for farming and cattle production.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases
than mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea
and a lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly
and completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the
eruption phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house
gases. The particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone
interested in retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from
perpetuating the volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology,
not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can
not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person
providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews
the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated
to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or
do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just
like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not
science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to
clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it.
Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the
University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my
undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe
anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look
at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the
thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a
heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can.
Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard science, not
blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<mailto:jsflyrv@verizon.net> <jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's
follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if
you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange
program or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use
more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed
in other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which
light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: User Fees and Patriotism |
Sigh.
When I take my foot off the gas, the car uses its current momentum to
charge the batteries. If I apply the brakes, they do so faster.
Both operations, of course, exchange forward momentum for electrical
energy, putting back into the batteries what was taken out earlier.
I consider it completely reasonable to call this "regenerative
braking", as the car regenerates electricity during the braking process.
This is probably one of the biggest advantages of the Prius. When
you slow down a conventional car, you get nothing back. If you apply
the brakes, you exchange your old momentum for heat -- you heat the
brakes. Certainly I don't get all the energy back that went into
getting the car moving forward, but I get some back -- which is more
than a conventional car gets.
I don't consider 47 MPG as reported by Consumer Reports a marketing
ploy. Last I checked, Toyota didn't own CR. My neighbor across the
street says, "I can get 50 consistently in the summer." They have
two, and the two of them compete each day to see who got the best
milage. She usually wins, but she's smaller so has a weight advantage.
If you don't want a Prius, don't get one. By I don't understand why
everyone is telling me how sour my grapes are. I bought a $25,000
car last night and I love it. And 10 years from now when gas prices
are $10 / gallon, I'll love it all the more. Your priorities are
different from mine? Great. We're not identical people, and there's
nothing wrong with that.
But stop insulting me at how stupid I am to have my priorities the
way they are.
-Joe
On Apr 20, 2007, at 10:03 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> So in reality you have fallen for the marketing hype, you are not
> using
> re-generative anything, you are using a gasoline engine to drive a
> generator to store energy. But you more efficient because you are
> using
> the inertia of the car on the braking cycle. In reality the engine is
> just as in-efficient as others, based on the "true" BSFC, but it gains
> because you are not wasting the momentum during stopping.
> It is all marketing crap, gasoline engines are gasoline engines no
> matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.
>
> Just my less than .02
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:57 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
> For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in. The batteries are
> recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine. My
> average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly :-) ) will
> be 45-50 MPG. Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine
> actually turned off. I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I
> don't have a good feel for everything.
>
> I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if
> anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.
>
> -Joe
>
> On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>
>> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>>
>> I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity,
>> but
>> none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
>> I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power
>> generated
>> by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
>> overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
>> being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to
>> offset the
>> cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
>> falling victim to the marketing hype.
>> Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
>> work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it
>> in,
>> you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
>> Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum
>> they
>> burn!
>> Dan Lloyd
>> N289DT RV10E
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
>> Morgan
>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>
>> <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>>
>> There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and
>> fossil
>> fuels.
>>
>> Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on
>> the
>> issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
>> what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven
>> conclusively.
>> All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more
>> tolerant
>> of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
>> problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
>> everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
>> conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still
>> to be
>> determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and
>> without
>> regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
>> admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control
>> lots,
>> and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your
>> master.....
>>
>>
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd,
>> Daniel
>> R.
>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>
>> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>>
>> Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is
>> used
>> to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
>> batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
>> the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what
>> you
>> get because it is "green"
>> Dan
>> N289DT
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
>> Ervin
>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>
>>
>> <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>>
>> Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the
>> environment
>> than
>> an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
>> toxic
>> batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
>> cleaner
>> fuel burn.
>> Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
>> emotional tirades.
>>
>>
>> Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and
>> you'll
>>
>> feel better in the morning.
>> Tom in Ohio
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
>> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
>> let's
>>> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>>>
>>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>>
>>> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
>>> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
>> know
>>> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
>> math
>>> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what
>>> will
>> end
>>> up happening.
>>>
>>> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly
>>> scarce? Do
>> you
>>> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
>> don't.
>>> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>>>
>>> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
>> economy.
>>> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
>>> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
>> years
>>> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
>> keep
>>> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
>> pick
>>> up my new Prius.
>>>
>>> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
>> that
>>> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
>> time
>>> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much,
>>> but
>> I do
>>> what I can.
>>>
>>> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
>>> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
>> demand
>>> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>>>
>>> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>>>
>>> -Joe
>>>
>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
>> Fontana
>>>> Calif.
>>>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>> due
>>>> to man's influence?".
>>>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>>>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
>> the
>>>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well
>>>> they
>> got
>>>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
>> that
>>>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>>>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>> absolutes.
>>>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to
>>>> man's
>>
>>>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>>>
>>>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sigh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
>> check
>>>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you
>>>>> should
>>>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What
>>>>> percentage is
>>>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What
>>>>> percentage is
>>>>> due to man's influence?>
>>>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
>> solutions
>>>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rob,
>>>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The
>>>>>> sun
>> is
>>>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I
>>>>>> would be
>>>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>>>> increase.
>>>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>>>> check out
>>>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>>>> hysteria
>>>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> do not archive
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
One thing I do know for certain, homo sapiens have been around considerably
longer than 10k years. What is amazing is how few years it took for that
particular species to technologically outstrip its social ability to wisely,
for the sake of the species, use it.
Ah, hell, it was all some grand experiment, anyway. Might as well see where
it all ends up. At the very least, I will do my part to live ecologically
conservatively, except when it comes to building and flying airplanes!
John Jessen (in major buildus interruptus at the moment, darn)
#40328
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Maybe a little more research on both sides of the table, short term versus
long term ....
Volcanic activity has the ability to affect global climate on still
longer time scales. Over periods of millions or even tens of millions of
years, increased volcanic activity can emit enormous volumes of greenhouse
gases, with the potential of substantial global warming (Pickering & Owen,
1994; Rampino & Volk, 1988). However, the global cooling effects of sulphur
dioxide emissions (Officer & Drake, 1983) will act to counter the greenhouse
warming, and the resultant climate changes remain uncertain. Much will
depend upon the nature of volcanic activity. Basaltic outpourings release
far less sulphur dioxide and ash, proportionally, than do the more explosive
eruptions.
My point is in all of this is that mankind has been here 10k years, and we
are just beginning to understand what is going on.
My intent was that people should research and look into things, just like
you stated. Go plant the tree's, because it will help offset the thousands
of acre's being destroyed every day in third world countries for farming and
cattle production.
Dan
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Regarding the myth about how one volcano sprew more greenhouse gases than
mankind has for a gadzillion years.....well, its a great story idea and a
lot of people parrot it, but unfortunately it is totally, utterly and
completely false. The calculations done indicate that during the eruption
phase, it discharged the equivalent of 2-3 days of green house gases. The
particle/soot content was a little higher, but anyone interested in
retaining even a shred of credibility should refrain from perpetuating the
volcano story because it is based on wishful mythology, not fact.
Now, I think I'll go out and plant a few trees to pollute the
atmosphere--good grief!
Chuck Jensen
Do Not Archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not
be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the
money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings.
Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any
hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do
not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated
that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the
rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and
industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for
us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green house
gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for
little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that
we control the environment is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it
will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well
maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus.
What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys
our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it
transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out
with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes as
much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force
feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or do
you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love
to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to
explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's consensus amongst
scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the
opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying
it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are these
perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like
global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to
clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. Then
get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the University of
Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my undergrad degree back
in the '80s. He was one of the best college professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe
anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look at
his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the
thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a heck
of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to
hear your arguments, based on facts and hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's
follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if you
are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange program
or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in
other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which
light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 25
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
You can have my IO-540 when you pry it from my cold dead wallet. Of course there
is always the fact that Jan is still pissed at me for asking questions he
couldn't answer thereby banning me from ever buying one. I'm still expecting
you to show me what I missed out on though!
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:25 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Too true...stir the pot!
How about alternative engines in RV10's?
LOL
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Of course there is always the diesels such as the Jetta TDI that get
as good of gas mileage, will probably out last a Prius by 3 fold which
more than makes up for any perceived advantages of a Prius, uses proven
technology, and is considerably less complex. Anyone ever see one of
those strip mines or the number of trips around the planet it takes to
produce the batteries for a Prius? Don't buy into the marketing hype
and do your own research before you buy anything that claims to be
"green". Don't even get me started on "carbon credits", give me a
break. 98% of the world will not buy into "green" technologies unless
they are either 1) the only choice, or 2) cost effective compared to
current choices.
BTW, how the hell did this thread degenerate into a discussion on
energy? Back to the delete key.
Michael
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
For what it's worth, the Prius is not plugged in. The batteries are
recharged through regenerative braking and via the engine. My
average milage (once the car trains me to drive properly :-) ) will
be 45-50 MPG. Clearly, some of that time is spent with the engine
actually turned off. I've driven all of about 12 miles so far, so I
don't have a good feel for everything.
I won't bother the list with any more info on my new Prius, but if
anyone wants to chat about them, feel free to email me.
-Joe
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:10 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> I do agree that there are many other ways to generate electricity, but
> none of them are as cheap as coal or liquid petroleum products.
> I do agree in theory that electric cars that have their power
> generated
> by clean technology is a good idea, unfortunately less than 1% of
> overall electricity used in the US is generated cleanly, so with that
> being said someone buying an electric car is doing nothing to
> offset the
> cause and effect of what we are talking about. Instead they too are
> falling victim to the marketing hype.
> Now, if you are running your own "green" power generation at home and
> work I will retract my comments, but if you are just "plugging" it in,
> you are just as guilty as the rest of us.
> Get real, lets talk airplanes, and the "large" amounts of petroleum
> they
> burn!
> Dan Lloyd
> N289DT RV10E
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffery J.
> Morgan
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
>
> There are other ways to generate electicity than burning coal and
> fossil
> fuels.
>
> Surprising the most to me on this thread is the black and white on the
> issue. It is proven over and over that man messes up ecosystems. To
> what extent and such is debateable and still to be proven
> conclusively.
> All and all I would suggest that even just try to be a bit more
> tolerant
> of ideas and maybe, with the same creative juices that solve airplane
> problems, we can work to a better place. Or we can continue to deny
> everything and admit nothing. I would choose to look at things, have
> conversations, and work to a better place. What that is, is still
> to be
> determined, but there are ways to make things better, with and without
> regulation. Oil is key to our world. Whether or not folks want to
> admit it apparently will not change that fact. Oil people control
> lots,
> and they aren't in the government. Guess you can choose your
> master.....
>
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
> R.
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:24 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
> <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
> Another fact of using an electric car, is what natural resource is
> used
> to create the electricity to charge the "environmentally" friendly
> batteries? Trading one natural resource for another is just following
> the marketing hype and buying a car that is way overpriced for what
> you
> get because it is "green"
> Dan
> N289DT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy
> Ervin
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
> <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
>
> Another FACT the Prius has a bigger negative impact on the environment
> than
> an SUV over its lifetime. The energy used to manufacture the highly
> toxic
> batteries and the eventual disposal of the same is not offset by the
> cleaner
> fuel burn.
> Do some research and please don't let facts get in the way of
> emotional tirades.
>
>
> Do not Archive Oh...and in your case use water based primer and
> you'll
>
> feel better in the morning.
> Tom in Ohio
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>
>
>>
>> Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
> let's
>> follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
>>
>> Sorry, that's not my style.
>>
>> We KNOW we're on the last half of the oil, give or take a couple of
>> billion barrels. We know how fast it's currently being used, and we
> know
>> what the rate of growth is. Take those numbers, apply the level of
> math
>> I learned in grade school, and it's not hard to figure out what will
> end
>> up happening.
>>
>> What do you think will happen as oil becomes increasingly scarce? Do
> you
>> really believe it's only going to take more money to buy it? I
> don't.
>> It's going to take more wars. Is that what you want?
>>
>> It's not what I want. What I want is to get off the oil-based
> economy.
>> Then we could tell everyone in the middle east to go ahead, kill
>> yourselves, we don't care, because we don't need anything you have.
>>
>> I'm trying to do my part. I need a new car. My current one is 12
> years
>> old and is to the point where I need to put about $3000 into it to
> keep
>> it running for another year. Instead, I about 35 minutes, I get to
> pick
>> up my new Prius.
>>
>> Everyone makes their choices. I choose to reduce my use of oil so
> that
>> there will be more oil available for other uses and to give us more
> time
>> to stop using it entirely. By myself, I can't do all that much, but
> I do
>> what I can.
>>
>> For all practical purposes, we'll be out of oil in 40 years. I'm 44
>> years old and expect to still be alive. But between now and then,
> demand
>> for a scarce resource will make geopolitics increasingly unstable.
>>
>> I don't think it makes sense to go down that path.
>>
>> -Joe
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 5:44 PM, <jhstarn@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Many years ago there was a steel plant, Kaiser Steel, located in
> Fontana
>>> Calif.
>>> "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
> due
>>> to man's influence?".
>>> Well ALL those in the know spouted the same montra listed above.
>>> IF we could just get rid of Kaiser Steel that was "producing 85% of
> the
>>> smog in the LA basin" (reportedly a known, for sure FACT) Well they
> got
>>> rid of Kaiser Steel, Did that help ? Sure. Was it the total answer
> that
>>> the "Experts" all agreed would solve the problem. NO. Why not ???
>>> Because the: "That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
> absolutes.
>>> How big has the change been so far? What percentage is due to
>>> man's
>
>>> influence?" AND they still don't KNOW. KABONG Do Not Archive
>>>
>>>> From: Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>
>>>> Date: 2007/04/19 Thu PM 03:43:54 CDT
>>>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Jim -- the facts aren't in dispute by anyone. Maybe you should
> check
>>>> *your* sources. If they all are stamped "big oil", maybe you
>>>> should
>>>> take them with a grain of salt. Man-influenced climate change is
>>>> happening. That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence? Will it continue? How bad is it going to
>>>> get? That's a basic fact. What isn't known are the
>>>> absolutes. How big has the change been so far? What percentage is
>>>> due to man's influence?>
>>>> Besides, we're running out of oil. Wouldn't you rather see
> solutions
>>>> now rather than later? I know I would.
>>>>
>>>> As for the chicken little comment -- I'd rather take care of the
>>>> problem than bury my head in the sand.
>>>>
>>>> -Joe
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 19, 2007, at 2:11 PM, James H Nelson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob,
>>>>> Climate change "may" be occurring but not by man. The
>>>>> sun
> is
>>>>> hotter, so, since all out "heat" comes from that source, I
>>>>> would be
>>>>> inclined to believe that the sun is the source of the possible
>>>>> increase.
>>>>> However since it is warmer in some places and cooler in some, it
>>>>> becomes
>>>>> chicken little's "the sky is falling" for those who will not
>>>>> check out
>>>>> facts from all possible sources. Ignorance and lazy ness breed
>>>>> hysteria
>>>>> and politicians love it. consensus is not "fact".
>>>>> Enough politics--- this is a build site!!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> do not archive
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Painting fiberglass |
> You guys work with a lot of fiberglass. What relatively non-toxic
> (i.e., not polyurethane) primer/paint is good for fiberglass?
>
>Also, I am 6' 3" 230 pounds. Should I go with a 7A or 8A?
Ah Ha, a building question? Good deal.
Use Smooth Prime as the primer for fiberglass, get it from Aircraft
Spruce. I used PPG two part paint. Works well on fiberglass and metal.
7A or 8A? Do you want the passenger beside you or behind you. If you
like your passengers, then it is easier to talk and show things side
by side. Sizewise, two 230 pounders might be a little tight in an
7A. If you want to sit on the centerline then the RV8A is one way to go.
You could also go with an RV7 or RV8. Personally I don't think
tricycle gear looks good on a tailwheel airplane! But that is just me!
Latest peer reviewed scientific study that my big business paid for
and was fully supported by all my environmental whacky politicians,
indicated that tricycle gear RVs cause global warming and the next
ice age. If you do go with a tricycle gear, it will probably doom us
all, and life as we know it will be no more.
Bob
RV6
"Wicked Witch of the West"
Message 27
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
For those who are annoyed by the political twist of the RV list lately,
check a week or so back and you will see that the list was dead and someone
decided to tweak stir things up a bit. It worked!
I planted thousands of trees in an earlier life in forestry, but I ran
across a report recently that questions the popular wisdom as expressed by
Joe below that trees are the solution to greenhouse gasses. From the
Scientific American's introduction to their article: SCIENCE NEWS
<http://www.sciam.com/news_directory.cfm> April 10, 2007 More Trees, Less
Global Warming, Right? -- Not Exactly A 150-year simulation of worldwide
deforestation finds that tropical forests are carbon sinks and boreal
forests contribute to warming By Nikhil Swaminathan
Here's the article: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003
<http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=DCA231BA-E7F2-99DF-
3105874539B83ECB&ref=rss>
&articleID=DCA231BA-E7F2-99DF-3105874539B83ECB&ref=rss
It seems maybe Ronald Reagan was right about trees after all.
As for DDT, this is an issue that the environmental community should hang
their heads in shame over. Millions of deaths of the most defenseless people
have occurred because "we" decided to ban the safest and most effective
insecticide that could, in small quantities, kill the mosquito carriers of
malaria. In the 1940's a 50's, dairy barns and picnics would be fogged with
DDT to kill the mosquitoes. I can still remember the smell of the DDT fog in
our barn when I went out on a summer evening to milk the cows.
Here is an admittedly biased reference to the history of DDT:
http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm
And the plug-in version of the Prius is so far a $10,000 after-market option
used primarily by fleets such as city governments but is apparently a coming
option from Toyota. I'll find the references if anyone really cares.
OK, I've had my say so now we can get back to airplanes!
Terry
RV-8A finishing?
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Yes, the earth is self-regulating, but man has tossed out the old
equilibrium and is interfering with the process of finding another.
The earth regulates carbon dioxide through plants. Toss more CO2 in the air
and the plants say "yum!" and grow big and strong.
Tell me, how are the rain forests in south america doing lately? How about
the forests of Europe (gone for 1000 years, largely due to shipbuilding to
support conquest but also for heating)? And those boundless forests of North
America?
No one is saying that man is causing the entire rise. Folks are saying man
is contributing to the rise. And folks are concerned about it. I feel those
concerns are valid.
Ultimately, I don't care if the sea level rises 20 meters. I live in
Minnesota, 800+ feet above sea level. And I'm sure the folks in Manhatten
love the idea of looking more like Venice.
I don't think anyone is saying we're going to spiral out of control and turn
into Venus. But they are saying that given the current trends, the overall
temperature is going to rise by "several degrees". They admit they don't
know how much or if/when it will stop. But they can do a pretty good job of
stating what will happen as the earth warms, starting with melting ice caps,
rising sea levels and nastier storm seasons.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non capital
based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE" research can not
be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the person providing the
money to both peers is wanting to portray another, slews the findings.
Research is much like accounting, numbers can be generated to prove any
hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge they do
not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has been stated
that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that is causing the
rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these gases is cars and
industrial process by-products. But if you do the research, as you state for
us to do, that one volcano eruption while disperse more of these green house
gases, than we will generate over several decades. We have been here for
little more than 10k years, and for us to have the egotistical thoughts that
we control the environment is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant it
will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say, well
maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a virus.
What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that destroys
our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus than make it
transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in and wipe us out
with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it makes as
much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying to force
feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means? Or do you
dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd love
to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real science to
explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's consensus amongst
scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot more to me than the
opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even understand it before saying
it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are these
perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just like
global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going to
clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it. Then get
back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the University of
Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my undergrad degree back in
the '80s. He was one of the best college professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe anything
the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look at his evidence
and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the thinking is flawed. I
can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a heck of a lot smarter than I am
about this stuff. Maybe you can. Would love to hear your arguments, based on
facts and hard science, not blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
<jsflyrv@verizon.net>
Joseph Larson wrote:
<jpl@showpage.org>
Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or let's follow
the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not if you
are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange program or
believe that you can use more by buying the right to use more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed in
other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us which light
bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
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Message 28
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In case anyone points you to the plans available from Aircraft Spruce.
With the recent birth of our first child, I excitedly purchased plans
for a "RV Sport" (or Sky Racer) from Spruce. When I received the
plans I was surprised to see how complicated the construction was for a
pedal car. There are lots of complex dado cuts requiring a table saw
which I don't have, a covered spar and rib wing, and a custom tailwheel
assembly among other things. I tend not to shy away from projects such
as this, but even the instructions caution the user of the time and
tooling needed to build and recommend purchasing a kit. I called the
company that manufactures the plans www.c3gm.com to inquire about a kit
and they had told me that they were out of the pedal plane business and
sold off all the tooling a few years ago. They are also pretty much
out of the plastic parts they had left over (cowl, spinner,
windscreen), unless I wanted rejects or seconds.
Anyway, I've pretty much given up on the RV idea, and now I may purchase
the P-51 plans from EAA which are made by a different company.
Good luck!
Brad Oliver
RV-7 | Livermore, CA
www.RV7Factory.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RV-List: Pedal planes
From: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
Anyone have any experience with pedal plane plans? I have seen the
ones in EAA. I have not seen plans for a Bonanza or a RV. Anyone
build them near Atlanta? I am thinking about building one for my
Grandson for Christmas. Painting Bonanza magnesium this weekend.
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: User Fees and Patriotism |
It may be an infinitesimal data point, but it is our data point, and
that of our kids, grand kids, and their grand kids.
About the Prius; is it perfect technology; of course not. But the
bottom line is that I put 1 gallon of gas in it and it takes me 45
miles, as compared to the average US vehicle which stops dead after only
24 miles. As far as what it takes to make the batteries; offset what it
takes to mine and process the oil. Spend a day in western Colorado in
places like Grass Mesa, Battlement Mesa, the Piceance Basin, etc....
Its not pretty. It used to be that oil pretty much came bubbling to the
surface. Now we've got Exxon's absurd Rube Goldberg oil shale dreams
and the industry clamoring to build 1000 miles pipelines in Northeast
Alaska just to get another few months supply. Thats why gas costs what
it does. And then add to that the $2 billion+ per week we're spending
in Iraq and the extra taxes and mortage interest we're all paying
because of it. Do you think you are really filling up your RV for the
bargain price of $100. Add up all the hidden costs and it a lot closer
to $200. Today, we are 1 Senator's health away from attacking Iran. That
will bring the cost to fill your RV to $300.
I think it was Socrates who said it best. Just because you are not
interested in politics, doesn't mean politics is not interested in you.
Andy
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:58 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Going with the George Carlin thing, he also had a great comment that
humans are only here because the Earth wanted plastic.
Anyone who thinks we are killing the planet in the great timeframe
of the universe always makes me giggle. We haven't even been here for
half a blink. The Earth formed from galactic dust . When we are long
gone after the other half of that blink because we did something stupid,
the planet will not even notice that we were here. Science has an
agenda the same as corporations nowadays and it is the new sexy
political platform. There is no way around it. Climatologists are
nothing more than statisticians that roll the dice because there is
absolutely no way anyone can say with absolute certainty what the planet
was doing even 500 years ago. They have a infinitesimal data point to
work with and a whole lot of technology that can produce thousands of
"whatifs" to satisfy every angle a politician or corporation could want.
We think we are smarter than we actually are for the most part and
there are more hypotheses than truths. Mankind also likes to believe we
are the center of everything, but it will be our arrogance and
stubbornness that will ultimately make the planet say "what was that".
Now back to pounding rivets!
Do not archive
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lloyd, Daniel
R.
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:37 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Previously peer review was valid on research because it was non
capital based, but since big business is now in science, and "PURE"
research can not be guaranteed, IE the reports find one thing, but the
person providing the money to both peers is wanting to portray another,
slews the findings. Research is much like accounting, numbers can be
generated to prove any hypothesis, given enough money and time.
It has been proven that not only are we heating up, but several of our
neighboring planets are heating up, and to the best of our knowledge
they do not have humans on them, so how do you explain that one. It has
been stated that green house gases and specifically carbon dioxide that
is causing the rise in temperature, and the primary generation of these
gases is cars and industrial process by-products. But if you do the
research, as you state for us to do, that one volcano eruption while
disperse more of these green house gases, than we will generate over
several decades. We have been here for little more than 10k years, and
for us to have the egotistical thoughts that we control the environment
is a fallacy.
The Earth is self regulating, and if we become too much of an irritant
it will get rid of us just like it did with the dinosaurs. How you say,
well maybe first it would determine what we are susceptible to, like a
virus. What better way to hasten our demise than to create a virus that
destroys our immune system, and what better way to spread that virus
than make it transmittable when we reproduce. Then it will just step in
and wipe us out with a common cold, or better yet avian flu...
Wish I had put out this theory, but George Carlin stated it, and it
makes as much sense as what allot of the corporate scientists are trying
to force feed America to sell products.
Dan Lloyd
N289DT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:23 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: User Fees and Patriotism
Have you read anything about it, Jerry? Do you know what it means?
Or do you dismiss it because you don't want to understand?
As I said, if you can poke real holes in it based on real science, I'd
love to hear it. So far, I've never heard anyone even try to use real
science to explain what's wrong with the theory. And when there's
consensus amongst scientists who have done peer review, that means a lot
more to me than the opinion of nay-sayers who don't bother to even
understand it before saying it's wrong.
I believe in the scientific method. I believe in peer review. Are
these perfect? No, but they're the best we've got by far.
-J
On Apr 20, 2007, at 12:09 AM, Jerry Springer wrote:
"The Hubbert peak theory" that first sentence said it all. It is just
like global warming advocates use the term consensus, consensus is not
science.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine so I am not going
to clutter up the RV-List with anymore global warming or running out of
oil
theories.
do not archive
Joe Larson wrote:
Jerry, do some research. Look up "Hubbert's Peak". Read about it.
Then get back to me.
Here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert%27s_peak
And here's a book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubberts-Peak-Impending-World-Shortage/dp/
0691116253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7341198-9415216?
ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177035715&sr=8-1
This book was recommended to me by a geology professor at the
University of Minnesota, a person I studied under when getting my
undergrad degree back in the '80s. He was one of the best college
professors I had.
You don't have to believe anything I say. You don't have to believe
anything the author of this book says. If you think he's wrong, look
at his evidence and point out what's wrong with it. Tell me where the
thinking is flawed. I can't poke holes in it. Neither can people a
heck of a lot smarter than I am about this stuff. Maybe you can.
Would love to hear your arguments, based on facts and hard science, not
blind opinion.
-J
On Apr 19, 2007, at 8:08 PM, Jerry Springer wrote:
Joseph Larson wrote:
Right. We don't know everything. So let's just do nothing? Or
let's follow the lead of some people and deny the problems exist?
Sorry, that's not my style.
We were running out of oil in the early 70's remember, probably not
if you are 44 years old now. climates are changing BUT NOT BY MAN.
All of you gore supporters that buy the carbon footprint exchange
program or believe that you can use more by buying the right to use
more
such as gore and edwards!!!!!! what a joke.
Sorry I am contributing to this thread that would be better discussed
in other forums but it pisses me off when people are welling to
let the government regulate our lives to the point of telling us
which light bulbs we must use etc.
do not archive
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m
atronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m
atronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
Message 30
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| Subject: | User Fees and Patriotism |
> In reality the engine is
> just as in-efficient as others, based on the "true" BSFC, but it gains
> because you are not wasting the momentum during stopping.
It's actually a bit more comlicated than that. A piston engine doesn't have a
single BSFC, but rather a "map" of BSFCs at different operating conditions (RPM
and throttle position, mainly). Although the piston engine in a hybrid doesn't
have any better maximum BSFC than a similar piston engine in a conventional
car, the energy storage system allows it to spend more time operating at or
near optimum BSFC. In other words, the BSFC integrated over the duty cycle is
higher for the hybrid.
In general I don't think this discussion belongs on the RV List. But I'm
attempting to exploit a loophole by speaking purely about the science and
engineering of heat engines, which ought to be of interest to most builders.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
do not archive
Message 31
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I live in an airpark...one of my neighbors built a Christen Eagle for his
daughter for Christmas. He did such a beautiful job but then wouldn't let
her ride it outside. It still has its own place in their family room and she
is now a teenager.
This has nothing to do with an RV but I am throwing it in to counter the
ongoing drone on user fees/global warming/patriotism.
Dale Ensing
do not achieve
>
> I built a Christen Eagle pedal plane for my nephew way back when (he's
> currently 6'3" and a soph at Univ. of Minn. -Duluth). Kid loved it, loved
> building it. We included some 'tweaks' from the plans, cosmetic only
> (Paint, panel).
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: User Fees and Patriotism |
The Prius is really not very economical or environmentally friendly, I
think the technology is still to new, but it has to start somewhere.
The average European diesel car will easily run 55 - 60 miles to gallon,
some smaller engined examples like the Audi A2 will stretch it over 70.
Oh, and they only got a standard 12 volt battery to save you a push
start in the morning :-)
If the ageing Western War Machine would be put back in garage/hangar
then we would be able to stop buying those $3.50 gallons...........
do not archive
Message 33
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| Subject: | RV-8 rudder pedals |
Hi,
Doing engine runs on my -8. I have the ground adjustable pedals with the
standard Van's brakes. Question is, I'm 6'3" and have the pedals towards
the end of the adjustment. With full rudder I get NO brake at all on that
pedal. My brakes are bled with no bubbles visible and solid hard feel.
Also, to lock the brakes, I end up looking like a ballet dancer with my toes
pointed way more than I'd like.
This is the first time I've had all the components working together so
haven't had this until now. Talked to one -8 guy and he said that's how his
was as well, no brake on the side with the rudder.
What have others experienced?
Thanks,
John
80002
Message 34
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| Subject: | Govenor oil leak |
I have a new O-360 and the Jihostroj prop governor. I have a persistent oil
leak that appears to be coming from the gasket between the governor and the
engine. I changed the gasket once and my mechanic changed it a second time. The
leak seems to be at the top of the joint and oil dribbles on down various
hoses and wires and exits at the lower cowl.
Anyone else have the problem?
Roy Samuelson
RV7A at Oakland CA
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: RV-8 rudder pedals |
I have the fixed pedals and am also 6'3". What I did was to add another hole to
the 4 pieces of metal (2 per side) that hold the cable, about 1/2 inch closer
to the pedals. This does movel the tops of the pedals closer to you but, I like
my brakes to work at full rudder deflection! If I had to do it over again I
think I would have made it .75.......This is all from memory from a few years
ago so check the numbers!
Scott Bilinski
RV-8a
----- Original Message ----
From: John Porter <december29@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 3:27:02 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV-8 rudder pedals
Hi,
Doing engine runs on my -8. I have the ground adjustable pedals with the
standard Van's brakes. Question is, I'm 6'3" and have the pedals towards
the end of the adjustment. With full rudder I get NO brake at all on that
pedal. My brakes are bled with no bubbles visible and solid hard feel.
Also, to lock the brakes, I end up looking like a ballet dancer with my toes
pointed way more than I'd like.
This is the first time I've had all the components working together so
haven't had this until now. Talked to one -8 guy and he said that's how his
was as well, no brake on the side with the rudder.
What have others experienced?
Thanks,
John
80002
__________________________________________________
Message 36
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| Subject: | Looking for advice |
As the first EWO uttered when told he was going to be strapped in the back seat
of an F-100 to become a target Wild Weasel....YGBSM.
KABONG (Do a search, it's there). Do Not Archive
>
>Yes, I was. I'm getting to old for all these acronyms. Heck, I don't
>even have an EFIS and fly a plastic airplane.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>Geez, Bruce, plastic plane and no EFIS? Maybe you have trouble with
>acronyms, but here's a word you'll be familiar with--- LUDDITE!!!!! :-)
>
>Chuck Jensen
>Do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Govenor oil leak |
I have the same equip, installed 14 months ago. I believe there was a
special note with governor saying I may need a thicker gasket to avoid
internal contact of metal parts that would prevent proper seal and improper
friction. Can you assemble gently without the gasket to get an idea of how
much gasket space you have before anything bottoms out inside? In my case
this gave the appearance that the gasket they shipped was adequate. It has
worked ok for 14 months and 200 hours.
Good luck as always,
Dale
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RSamuelson@aol.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:27 PM
Subject: RV-List: Govenor oil leak
I have a new O-360 and the Jihostroj prop governor. I have a persistent oil
leak that appears to be coming from the gasket between the governor and the
engine. I changed the gasket once and my mechanic changed it a second time.
The leak seems to be at the top of the joint and oil dribbles on down
various hoses and wires and exits at the lower cowl.
Anyone else have the problem?
Roy Samuelson
RV7A at Oakland CA
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
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