Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:10 AM - skin dents (Patrick Kelley)
2. 07:15 AM - Re: Catto Prop (Bill VonDane)
3. 07:21 AM - Re: skin dents (Denis Walsh)
4. 07:24 AM - Re: skin dents (Tim Bryan)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: skin dents (Joseph Larson)
6. 07:51 AM - Re: skin dents (Bob Collins)
7. 08:00 AM - Re: skin dents (mark phipps)
8. 08:11 AM - Re: skin dents (Jim Sears)
9. 08:35 AM - Re: skin dents (Patrick Kelley)
10. 09:14 AM - Re: skin dents (John Fasching)
11. 09:31 AM - Re: skin dents (carlos)
12. 09:42 AM - Re: skin dents (Ed Anderson)
13. 09:57 AM - Re: skin dents (Dale Ensing)
14. 12:00 PM - Re: Tip Up Canopy Query (PeterHunt1@AOL.COM)
15. 01:12 PM - Re: skin dents (Rick Galati)
16. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: skin dents (Patrick Kelley)
17. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: skin dents (Terry Watson)
18. 03:09 PM - Panel (Rick Leach)
19. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: skin dents (John Jessen)
20. 04:00 PM - Re: Panel (Deems Davis)
21. 05:12 PM - Re: Panel (John W. Cox)
22. 05:22 PM - Re: Sniffle Valve (Kelly McMullen)
23. 06:44 PM - RV-7 Elevator mismatch (davercook)
24. 07:12 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Charlie England)
25. 07:15 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Don Vs)
26. 07:23 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Bob Collins)
27. 07:25 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Richard E. Tasker)
28. 07:40 PM - FS: MT Prop Gov (Neal George)
29. 08:49 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Vanremog@aol.com)
30. 08:53 PM - Re: FS: MT Prop Gov (LessDragProd@aol.com)
31. 08:53 PM - Re: skin dents (Michael D. Cencula)
32. 11:21 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Karl Ahamer)
Message 1
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How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from
someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I
learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working
for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and
teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the
dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I
continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got
much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less
severe than my first ones.
Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at
my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little
fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano
hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of
experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said
they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he
said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear
the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored.
By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the
damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be
fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin
and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure
underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they
recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than
good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity
of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings;
there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I
proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only
one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he
is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
Message 2
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I was thinking about $1800 shipped... That would include everything
flywheel forward... It sues 7/16" bolts too...
I need to go take some pix of it... It has a couple dings.....but it
only has very low hours on it...
-Bill
jbker@juno.com wrote:
> Bill, how much convincing ($$$) does it take? :>)
>
> Bernie
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
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Let me be the first to cry horseshit.
Get another opinion.
My dents now have 1970 hours.
Denis Walsh
On May 23, 2007, at 07:58 287230005, Patrick Kelley wrote:
> How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming
> from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some
> background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At
> the time, I was working for American International Airways and I
> got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I
> dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight,
> not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued
> to build, the occasional =91oops=92 did not overly concern me; I got
> much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were
> less severe than my first ones.
>
>
> Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out
> and look at my aircraft. He=92s an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A
> but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn=92t know the cowl was
> fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for
> instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed
> his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would
> HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said
> I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to
> clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch.
> I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my
> teacher=92s comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural,
> but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I=92m horrified
> by the thought of putting 2=94-3=94 holes in my skin and I have no
idea
> how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath
> anyway. I haven=92t looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend,
> but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than
> good while trying to repair and also won=92t the patches affect the
> integrity of the monocoque structure? I=92m not dodging the fact
> that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the
> whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should
> get another tech advisor (he=92s the only one near Flagstaff; I
> expect I=92d have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right.
> Comments and opinions much appreciated.
>
>
> Pat Kelley ' RV-6A ' Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 4
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Patrick,
This is crazy! If they are indeed cosmetic, then you do NOT need to cut
holes in your skins. I would just plan on filling them before paint if you
like. You need a different tech counselor simply because he suggested this
when he also admits they are cosmetic. If you have some that are more than
just cosmetic the better choice is to replace the skin or add additional
rivets to change the status to no longer less than cosmetic. If you find
another accomplished builder in your area it would be sufficient I would
think to replace the technical counselor.
My opinions of course.
Tim
RV-6 flying with a few rivet dings
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Kelley
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:59 AM
Subject: RV-List: skin dents
How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from
someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I
learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working
for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and
teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the
dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I
continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got
much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less
severe than my first ones.
Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at
my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little
fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano
hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of
experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said
they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he
said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear
the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored.
By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the
damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be
fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin
and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure
underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they
recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than
good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity
of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings;
there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I
proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only
one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he
is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
Message 5
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There's no way I'd mess with the structural integrity of the airframe
to fix cosmetic problems. Bondo for the win?
-Joe
On May 23, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Patrick Kelley wrote:
> How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming
> from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some
> background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At
> the time, I was working for American International Airways and I
> got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I
> dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight,
> not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued
> to build, the occasional =91oops=92 did not overly concern me; I got
> much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were
> less severe than my first ones.
>
>
> Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out
> and look at my aircraft. He=92s an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A
> but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn=92t know the cowl was
> fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for
> instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed
> his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would
> HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said
> I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to
> clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch.
> I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my
> teacher=92s comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural,
> but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I=92m horrified
> by the thought of putting 2=94-3=94 holes in my skin and I have no
idea
> how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath
> anyway. I haven=92t looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend,
> but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than
> good while trying to repair and also won=92t the patches affect the
> integrity of the monocoque structure? I=92m not dodging the fact
> that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the
> whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should
> get another tech advisor (he=92s the only one near Flagstaff; I
> expect I=92d have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right.
> Comments and opinions much appreciated.
>
>
> Pat Kelley ' RV-6A ' Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
>
> ========================
> ========================
>
Message 6
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The words "have to" are the ones that concern me. Isn't a tech counselor
advisory in nature?
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denis Walsh
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents
Let me be the first to cry horseshit.
Get another opinion.
My dents now have 1970 hours.
Denis Walsh
On May 23, 2007, at 07:58 287230005, Patrick Kelley wrote:
How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from
someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I
learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working
for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and
teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the
dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I
continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got
much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less
severe than my first ones.
Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at
my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little
fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano
hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of
experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said
they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he
said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear
the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored.
By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the
damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be
fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin
and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure
underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they
recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than
good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity
of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings;
there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I
proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only
one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he
is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
- The RV-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB
FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
<http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
Message 7
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Pat, most of us have a few dings in our rivet work and most are cosmetic. I can't
give firm advice without seeing the dings in person, but, if they don't have
sharp bends that likely could start worrying they probably are cosmetic. I can't
imagine why the advice was they are cosmetic but must be repaired. I think
his advice is based upon certified aircraft. Have a tech counselor or two look
at your work and offer thier opinion. I would be surprised if they require
the major rework you mentioned.
Mark Phipps, N242RP, flying RV6A, "Gypsy Spirit"
Patrick Kelley <webmaster@flion.com> wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } How to deal with
skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is
so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal
stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways
and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a
few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would
be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional oops did
not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they
did occur they were less severe than my first ones.
Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at
my aircraft. Hes an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on
the details (he didnt know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used
to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and
followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE
to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to
cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and
its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted,
when I mentioned my teachers comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural,
but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, Im horrified by
the thought of putting 2-3 holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do
it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I havent looked in the AC
yet to see what they recommend, but can
this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair
and also wont the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure?
Im not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen
throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I
should get another tech advisor (hes the only one near Flagstaff; I expect Id
have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much
appreciated.
Pat Kelley RV-6A Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48517/*http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 hot CTA = Join our Network Research Panel
Message 8
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Yes, we tech counselors only give advice. It's up to the builder to
follow our advice, or not. I agree with the others on this one. If in
doubt, get another opinion. The DAR would be the one to worry about
when it comes to mandatory fixes, if needed.
I see this Tech Couselor holds a A&P with IA. At 88, does he still
practice his trade? If not, he may have forgotten a few things, along
the way. The TC I had look at my project hadn't done metal work for
many years and didn't give much useful advice. Since your teacher was
also an IA holder, I'd be looking more at that one's advice. I'm not an
A&P and would not risk the skin strength to put patches there. For that
matter, if you put flush patches in, you'll mess up the way the skin
lays on the spars. Not good, either.
I have a few dings of my own in my -7A project. You can betcha they'll
remain as is. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
EAA Tech Counselor
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: skin dents
The words "have to" are the ones that concern me. Isn't a tech
counselor advisory in nature?
do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denis Walsh
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:21 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents
Let me be the first to cry horseshit.
Get another opinion.
My dents now have 1970 hours.
Denis Walsh
On May 23, 2007, at 07:58 287230005, Patrick Kelley wrote:
How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming
from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some
background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the
time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of
the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots
and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would
be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional
'oops' did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and
even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones.
Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and
look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a
little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or
that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected
his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on
the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell.
When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the
skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and
rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I
mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not
structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm
horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no
idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway.
I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this
be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to
repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque
structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are
about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I
proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the
only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix)
or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
- The RV-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space">
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List - NEW
MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> -->
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 9
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Thanks to all who've replied. I feel much better. I will go for a second
opinion just to be sure (not to say you guys aren't great but a pair of eyes
on the problem would have to be better than my verbal description.) Any RV
owners/Tech Advisors wanting an excuse to fly to Flagstaff out there? Test
your landing/takeoff performance at 7000'? I'd like to be sure that the next
guy who looks at my plane knows what I'm doing.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A
Message 10
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Get some two part filler - its either Miracle Fill or Super Fill, I
forget which...it will absolutely stick and you can fill the dents, sand
them and then paint over.....I did this 12-years ago on my RV6A and none
of the fill ever came loose....whatever you do DO NOT use Bondo...it
WILL crack.
Don't cut those holes...that's really crazy
John
Patrick Kelley wrote:
>
> Thanks to all who've replied. I feel much better. I will go for a
> second opinion just to be sure (not to say you guys aren't great but a
> pair of eyes on the problem would have to be better than my verbal
> description.) Any RV owners/Tech Advisors wanting an excuse to fly
> to Flagstaff out there? Test your landing/takeoff performance at
> 7000'? I'd like to be sure that the next guy who looks at my plane
> knows what I'm doing.
>
>
>
> Pat Kelley -- RV-6A
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 11
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Patrick Kelley wrote:
>
> Thanks to all whove replied. I feel much better. I will go for a
> second opinion just to be sure (not to say you guys arent great but a
> pair of eyes on the problem would have to be better than my verbal
> description.) Any RV owners/Tech Advisors wanting an excuse to fly to
> Flagstaff out there? Test your landing/takeoff performance at 7000?
> Id like to be sure that the next guy who looks at my plane knows what
> Im doing.
>
> Pat Kelley RV-6A
>
> *
>
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Pat,
Try Ron Smith. He lives in Goodyear, AZ (623) 935-5676. He has a bunch
of experience with RV construction ( 4, 6, 7, 8's) and built and flies a
6A also. He's my tech while I'm building my 7A. He's 71 but don't let
that bother you. He's a sharp minded individual.
Carlos in AZ
Message 12
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Don't do it. If the ding is only cosmetic - cover it and live with it.
I attempted to fix a ding in my aileron skin - ended up work hardening
and cracking it. Then put a patch in following the standard A&P
practice you described. With all the rivets, it ended up looking like
someone had patched where a 75mm round went through a Sherman tank.
Bound to have affected the weight and balance as well. I ended up
trashing that one and building a new aileron.
So don't do it. Not necessary and sure not pretty.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Kelley
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:58 AM
Subject: RV-List: skin dents
How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from
someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background.
I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was
working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to
come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was
reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be
easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional 'oops'
did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even
when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones.
Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and
look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a
little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or
that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected
his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on
the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell.
When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the
skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and
rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I
mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not
structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm
horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no
idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway.
I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this
be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to
repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque
structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are
about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I
proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the
only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix)
or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
Message 13
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Pat,
as others have said... do not cut the skins to repair cosmetic flaws. I
too had a few and intended to fill them with an epoxy putty made with a
sandable filler. When I decided to have the plane painted by a
professional aircraft paint shop, I talked to the owner about doing this
and he said to let them do it. They use a material called Piranha Putty.
In one case, where I dropped a bucking bar into the inside of the
leading edge of the wing, they took a blunt punch and made an "inside"
dent out of the "outside" dent and the filled the dent and sanded it
smooth. This was all done with the approval of their in-house A&P
mechanic.
I am going to the paint shop tomorrow and will try to remember to ask
them about the source of the Piranha Putty and pass it along to you.
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
EAA Tech Councilor and Flight Advisor
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Kelley
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:58 AM
Subject: RV-List: skin dents
................. Then he focused on the dents and said they would
HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I
would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the
affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored.
By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that
the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it
needed to be fixed.
Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
Message 14
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| Subject: | RE: Tip Up Canopy Query |
Regarding the new front seal now available for the tip-up canopy, Bill
writes: "Please post details, price, address, method of payment. Count me in."
This week the manufacturing equipment is being set up to make this specialty
run. It should be ready for shipping buy May 30th. I can sell it for $5.00
a foot. Just drop me a check. I'll pay all shipping and any sales tax for
anyone that wants a piece.
No adhesive is needed. The "C" channel which slides over the rear facing
edge (onto which the front of the tip-up canopy closes) has tiny fingers inside
the "C" facing rearward. These fingers allow the seal/gasket to slide on,
but resist sliding off. Therefore, it installs in just a minute. Cut it to
length, push it on and you are done. I have been flying my RV-6 with the
prototype seal/gasket for almost a year and it works great.
Pete Hunt
849 Harbor Island
Clearwater, FL 33767
727-447-6409
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 15
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Pat,
Your TC meant well. If the "dents" are indeed cosmetic they can be dealt with
later. Without a close up inspection or at least pictures and actual locations,
it is impossible for anyone here to offer anything more than generic advice.
We all have a different interpretation of what is "cosmetic." I know some
builders will accept a poor level of craftsmanship from themselves that other
builders would never think to tolerate. Similarly, a given individual's idea
of damage can be a relative thing compared to the perception of the next guy.
Your post seemed to convey that the TC seemed especially alarmed and I suspect
some of the dents may have exceeded what most casual observers would normally
consider to be cosmetic. As an active TC, I can assure you our services are
advisory in nature and no authority exists to make you do anything. That is
not what we do. Eventually however, your RV will be subject to a more formal
inspection by the FAA or its designee to acquire
its airworthiness certificate. Perhaps your TC knows something about the practices
of your local FSDO or DAR that we don't. In any event, get a second or
even third opinion. Good luck.
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla!"
RV-8 Fuselage
Message 16
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That's somewhat my feeling, too. Others have looked at the plane and not
commented about the quality of riveting, so I was somewhat surprised - but
even more by the suggested repair method. However, if he is right I need to
know; I am very aware that I am a novice builder. And, conversely, if he is
wrong I need to know that as well. Your advice of getting a second on-site
inspection is already being planned, as soon as I can locate another TC.
PatK
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: RV-List: RE: skin dents
Pat,
Your TC meant well. If the "dents" are indeed cosmetic they can be dealt
with later. Without a close up inspection or at least pictures and actual
locations, it is impossible for anyone here to offer anything more than
generic advice. We all have a different interpretation of what is
"cosmetic." I know some builders will accept a poor level of craftsmanship
from themselves that other builders would never think to tolerate.
Similarly, a given individual's idea of damage can be a relative thing
compared to the perception of the next guy. Your post seemed to convey that
the TC seemed especially alarmed and I suspect some of the dents may have
exceeded what most casual observers would normally consider to be cosmetic.
As an active TC, I can assure you our services are advisory in nature and no
authority exists to make you do anything. That is not what we do.
Eventually however, your RV will be subject to a more formal inspection by
the FAA or its designee to acquire its airworthiness certificate. Perhaps
your TC knows something about the practices of your local FSDO or DAR that
we don't. In any event, get a second or even third opinion. Good luck.
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla!"
RV-8 Fuselage
Message 17
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Pat,
I remember when I was getting started on my RV-8A project one of the most
difficult aspects was to try to understand the quality level required. It
became obvious that "Perfect" was going to be a rare occurrence, but the
difference between acceptable and not acceptable was and sometimes still is
difficult for my novice eye to distinguish. In making that distinction I
would suggest that you keep in mind that structural or mechanical or
electrical integrity is far more important than esthetics.
I remember reading that Japanese art sometimes includes an obvious
imperfection in order to avoid the pretense of perfection and therefore
insult the gods. My airplane will require no such intentional imperfections,
but I do intend for it to have complete integrity as a flying machine.
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Kelley
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents
That's somewhat my feeling, too. Others have looked at the plane and not
commented about the quality of riveting, so I was somewhat surprised - but
even more by the suggested repair method. However, if he is right I need to
know; I am very aware that I am a novice builder. And, conversely, if he is
wrong I need to know that as well. Your advice of getting a second on-site
inspection is already being planned, as soon as I can locate another TC.
PatK
Message 18
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Thought I would just pipe in for some opinions since we are on the panel
subject. I have been really looking hard at the OP system. I spoke with
them at Sun-n-fun and I am pretty impressed with the system. (Of course the
vendor is going to make it look real good.) Has anyone else looked at the
op system compared to the Chelton? If so, what do you think. I like the
integrated idea and it actually seems to offer more than the G900, i.e.
synthetic flight. Comments!
Rick Leach
40397
Message 19
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Apparently, so did the Shaker furniture makers of years ago.
John J
40328
do not archive
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents
Pat,
I remember when I was getting started on my RV-8A project one of the most
difficult aspects was to try to understand the quality level required. It
became obvious that "Perfect" was going to be a rare occurrence, but the
difference between acceptable and not acceptable was and sometimes still is
difficult for my novice eye to distinguish. In making that distinction I
would suggest that you keep in mind that structural or mechanical or
electrical integrity is far more important than esthetics.
I remember reading that Japanese art sometimes includes an obvious
imperfection in order to avoid the pretense of perfection and therefore
insult the gods. My airplane will require no such intentional imperfections,
but I do intend for it to have complete integrity as a flying machine.
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Kelley
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents
That's somewhat my feeling, too. Others have looked at the plane and not
commented about the quality of riveting, so I was somewhat surprised - but
even more by the suggested repair method. However, if he is right I need to
know; I am very aware that I am a novice builder. And, conversely, if he is
wrong I need to know that as well. Your advice of getting a second on-site
inspection is already being planned, as soon as I can locate another TC.
PatK
Message 20
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Rick,
Re Op Tech. I'm obviously biased as I chose Op Tech for my RV-10.
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Panel/slides/DSC03330.html (page fwd and
back LOTS of Screen pics in this album.)
For those who will take the time to look and compare, it's clear to me
that they have :
1. Larger Screens
2. Brighter Screens (1500 nit)
3. More information displayable on a screen
4. Better Resolution
5.Price includes an engine management system
6. Integrated IFR Charts
7. WSI or XM weather
8. Option for remote installation of avionics
9. More functionality than Chelton and LESS $'s
Op Tech is an option on the New EPIC (Chelton is not) along w/ Garmin
1000 Op Tech is the standard in the Javelin.
Talking to their owner/president Dexter Turner, they are expanding and
continuing to hire people and have recently moved into a larger facility,
all signs of a growing company (compare to D2A)
Lot's of the Lancair crowd have discovered them and I'm seeing more and
more of them installed.
I haven't flown it yet (other than 40 hours in DEMO mode) so take this 2
cents for what it's worth.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Rick Leach wrote:
> Thought I would just pipe in for some opinions since we are on the panel
> subject. I have been really looking hard at the OP system. I spoke with
> them at Sun-n-fun and I am pretty impressed with the system. (Of course the
> vendor is going to make it look real good.) Has anyone else looked at the
> op system compared to the Chelton? If so, what do you think. I like the
> integrated idea and it actually seems to offer more than the G900, i.e.
> synthetic flight. Comments!
>
>
>
> Rick Leach
>
> 40397
>
>
Message 21
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One additional feature #10 would be the ability to display video format
using an IR sensitive, motion stabilized tail mounted camera. Oregon
Aero has put one on a Pilatus PC-12 for entry at night onto wildlife
enriched airport environments.
The Garmin 900X has made some inroads into the Epic production line. It
is a very competitive market which is good for all of us shopping.
John C
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Panel
Rick,
Re Op Tech. I'm obviously biased as I chose Op Tech for my RV-10.
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Panel/slides/DSC03330.html (page fwd and
back LOTS of Screen pics in this album.)
For those who will take the time to look and compare, it's clear to me
that they have :
1. Larger Screens
2. Brighter Screens (1500 nit)
3. More information displayable on a screen
4. Better Resolution
5.Price includes an engine management system
6. Integrated IFR Charts
7. WSI or XM weather
8. Option for remote installation of avionics
9. More functionality than Chelton and LESS $'s
Op Tech is an option on the New EPIC (Chelton is not) along w/ Garmin
1000 Op Tech is the standard in the Javelin.
Talking to their owner/president Dexter Turner, they are expanding and
continuing to hire people and have recently moved into a larger
facility,
all signs of a growing company (compare to D2A)
Lot's of the Lancair crowd have discovered them and I'm seeing more and
more of them installed.
I haven't flown it yet (other than 40 hours in DEMO mode) so take this 2
cents for what it's worth.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
Rick Leach wrote:
> Thought I would just pipe in for some opinions since we are on the
panel
> subject. I have been really looking hard at the OP system. I spoke
with
> them at Sun-n-fun and I am pretty impressed with the system. (Of
course the
> vendor is going to make it look real good.) Has anyone else looked at
the
> op system compared to the Chelton? If so, what do you think. I like
the
> integrated idea and it actually seems to offer more than the G900,
i.e.
> synthetic flight. Comments!
>
>
>
> Rick Leach
>
> 40397
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Sniffle Valve |
Most production IO-360s in certificated aircraft like my Mooney have
sniffle valves.
James H Nelson wrote:
>
> Mark
> I believe that the sniffle valve is for carburated engines. Its
> purpose is to remove any fuel that might pool in the bottom of the air
> cleaner from to vigorous application of the throttle during starting.
> That is the fire hazard. With fuel injection, fuel is only put into the
> engine at the intake valve. It will be difficult but possible to get
> fuel to run back down and into the air cleaner area. Pumping the
> throttle during start will not add any additional fuel to the slow moving
> air stream. IMHO, anything is possible but with FI, you will have
> flooded the engine seriously. to get in that condition. I could be wrong
> in these scenarios but I am not installing one in my IO 360.
>
>
> Jim
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
Listers
A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a
problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the
stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8"
the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question
Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the
only thing I can think of.
David R. Cook
RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
davercook wrote:
> Listers
>
> A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a
> problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the
> stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8"
> the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question
> Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the
> only thing I can think of.
> David R. Cook
> RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours
>
> *
It's been a long time since I built the elevators on my -7 project, but
IIRC, the control horns have enough meat to allow aligning the elevators
properly & then drilling as needed, with the holes possibly not centered.
Remember, the -9 has a totally different hor. tail.
Charlie
Message 25
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| Subject: | RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
When your friend gets to drilling the horns he will read that they almost
never match. The elevators may not actually be in trail when the
copunterbalance arms ate not matched to the HS.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of davercook
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:44 PM
To: RV-List
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch
Listers
A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a
problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer,
the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was
down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have
this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think
of.
David R. Cook
RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours
Message 26
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| Subject: | RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
The control horns matching is irrelevant. They don't factor in this process
at all. The only thing that needs to happen here is the elevators trailing
edge aligning with one another while the counterbalance arms clamped.
I would want to confirm this a little more and I think I would clamp the
arms...and take a laser level and -- making sure the HS is level, of course
-- line it with the trailing edge on one and see how the other stacks up.
At the same time, that should, I would think, reveal any twist in the
individual elevator.
Do not archive.
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of davercook
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:44 PM
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch
Listers
A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem
with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the
counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down
3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this
problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of.
David R. Cook
RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
The problem is that he is aligning the control arms. The instructions
specifically state that it is not necessary nor appropriate to line up
the control arms. One aligns the two sides of the elevator and then
drills the control arms at the same time with some sort of jig to make
sure you are drilling perpendicular to the arms.
The control arms typically do not line up perfectly. Unless they are so
far out that one cannot drill straight through both without getting too
close to the edge of one or the other there is no problem.
Dick Tasker
davercook wrote:
> Listers
>
> A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a
> problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the
> stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up
> 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched.
> Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it
> is the only thing I can think of.
> David R. Cook
> RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
Message 28
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Listers -
I have a new MT prop governor for sale.
$1075, shipped.
Neal E. George
2023 Everglades Drive
Navarre, FL 32566
Home - 850-515-0640
Cell - 850-218-4838
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
In a message dated 5/23/2007 6:47:02 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
davercook@prodigy.net writes:
A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem
with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the
counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down 3/8"
while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this problem?
Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of.
====================================
I can't believe that Van's hasn't solved this problem in the 12 or 15 years
since it has been going on. I ended up cutting, undersleeving and rewelding
one side to reclock it, so I wasn't ashamed to put that poor fitting original
piece of cr** on the plane.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 845hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: FS: MT Prop Gov |
It would be nice if you listed the MT governor part number. That way the
correct engine usage could be determined. Perhaps from my MT Propeller
Governor page on my website, _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com/)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc.
805-795-5377
In a message dated 05/23/2007 7:42:05 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
neal.george@mchsi.com writes:
Listers -
I have a new MT prop governor for sale.
$1075, shipped.
Neal E. George
2023 Everglades Drive
Navarre, FL 32566
Home - 850-515-0640
Cell - 850-218-4838
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 31
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FWIW, careful pushing with a popsicle stick or other small piece of wood can
greatly reduce the appearance of dents in skins. I've repaired a couple
small dents using this method in my empennage skins.
Mike
On Wednesday May 23 2007 09:58 am, Patrick Kelley wrote:
> How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from
<snip>
> Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated.
>
>
> Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics.
Message 32
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| Subject: | RV-7 Elevator mismatch |
I had a similar problem in my 6A just not as much
mismatch.Had the holes in the control horns welded up (actually just in
one of them) aligned the elevators and redrilled.
It is very important to use a predrilled block of hard
material to guide the drillbit so it is exactly perpendicular to the
control horns.
Was a simple fix.
Regards
Karl Ahamer
7A near Sydney(cowling=85.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of davercook
Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch
Listers
A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a
problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the
stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8"
the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question
Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the
only thing I can think of.
David R. Cook
RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?RV-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
23/05/2007 3:59 PM
23/05/2007 3:59 PM
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