---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/23/07: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:10 AM - skin dents (Patrick Kelley) 2. 07:15 AM - Re: Catto Prop (Bill VonDane) 3. 07:21 AM - Re: skin dents (Denis Walsh) 4. 07:24 AM - Re: skin dents (Tim Bryan) 5. 07:49 AM - Re: skin dents (Joseph Larson) 6. 07:51 AM - Re: skin dents (Bob Collins) 7. 08:00 AM - Re: skin dents (mark phipps) 8. 08:11 AM - Re: skin dents (Jim Sears) 9. 08:35 AM - Re: skin dents (Patrick Kelley) 10. 09:14 AM - Re: skin dents (John Fasching) 11. 09:31 AM - Re: skin dents (carlos) 12. 09:42 AM - Re: skin dents (Ed Anderson) 13. 09:57 AM - Re: skin dents (Dale Ensing) 14. 12:00 PM - Re: Tip Up Canopy Query (PeterHunt1@AOL.COM) 15. 01:12 PM - Re: skin dents (Rick Galati) 16. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: skin dents (Patrick Kelley) 17. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: skin dents (Terry Watson) 18. 03:09 PM - Panel (Rick Leach) 19. 03:39 PM - Re: Re: skin dents (John Jessen) 20. 04:00 PM - Re: Panel (Deems Davis) 21. 05:12 PM - Re: Panel (John W. Cox) 22. 05:22 PM - Re: Sniffle Valve (Kelly McMullen) 23. 06:44 PM - RV-7 Elevator mismatch (davercook) 24. 07:12 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Charlie England) 25. 07:15 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Don Vs) 26. 07:23 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Bob Collins) 27. 07:25 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Richard E. Tasker) 28. 07:40 PM - FS: MT Prop Gov (Neal George) 29. 08:49 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Vanremog@aol.com) 30. 08:53 PM - Re: FS: MT Prop Gov (LessDragProd@aol.com) 31. 08:53 PM - Re: skin dents (Michael D. Cencula) 32. 11:21 PM - Re: RV-7 Elevator mismatch (Karl Ahamer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:15 AM PST US From: "Patrick Kelley" Subject: RV-List: skin dents How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones. Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:53 AM PST US From: Bill VonDane Subject: Re: RV-List: Catto Prop I was thinking about $1800 shipped... That would include everything flywheel forward... It sues 7/16" bolts too... I need to go take some pix of it... It has a couple dings.....but it only has very low hours on it... -Bill jbker@juno.com wrote: > Bill, how much convincing ($$$) does it take? :>) > > Bernie > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:56 AM PST US From: Denis Walsh Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Let me be the first to cry horseshit. Get another opinion. My dents now have 1970 hours. Denis Walsh On May 23, 2007, at 07:58 287230005, Patrick Kelley wrote: > How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming > from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some > background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At > the time, I was working for American International Airways and I > got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I > dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, > not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued > to build, the occasional =91oops=92 did not overly concern me; I got > much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were > less severe than my first ones. > > > Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out > and look at my aircraft. He=92s an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A > but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn=92t know the cowl was > fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for > instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed > his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would > HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said > I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to > clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. > I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my > teacher=92s comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, > but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I=92m horrified > by the thought of putting 2=94-3=94 holes in my skin and I have no idea > how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath > anyway. I haven=92t looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, > but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than > good while trying to repair and also won=92t the patches affect the > integrity of the monocoque structure? I=92m not dodging the fact > that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the > whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should > get another tech advisor (he=92s the only one near Flagstaff; I > expect I=92d have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. > Comments and opinions much appreciated. > > > Pat Kelley ' RV-6A ' Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. > > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:57 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: skin dents Patrick, This is crazy! If they are indeed cosmetic, then you do NOT need to cut holes in your skins. I would just plan on filling them before paint if you like. You need a different tech counselor simply because he suggested this when he also admits they are cosmetic. If you have some that are more than just cosmetic the better choice is to replace the skin or add additional rivets to change the status to no longer less than cosmetic. If you find another accomplished builder in your area it would be sufficient I would think to replace the technical counselor. My opinions of course. Tim RV-6 flying with a few rivet dings _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Kelley Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:59 AM Subject: RV-List: skin dents How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones. Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:39 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents There's no way I'd mess with the structural integrity of the airframe to fix cosmetic problems. Bondo for the win? -Joe On May 23, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Patrick Kelley wrote: > How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming > from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some > background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At > the time, I was working for American International Airways and I > got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I > dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, > not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued > to build, the occasional =91oops=92 did not overly concern me; I got > much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were > less severe than my first ones. > > > Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out > and look at my aircraft. He=92s an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A > but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn=92t know the cowl was > fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for > instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed > his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would > HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said > I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to > clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. > I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my > teacher=92s comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, > but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I=92m horrified > by the thought of putting 2=94-3=94 holes in my skin and I have no idea > how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath > anyway. I haven=92t looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, > but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than > good while trying to repair and also won=92t the patches affect the > integrity of the monocoque structure? I=92m not dodging the fact > that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the > whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should > get another tech advisor (he=92s the only one near Flagstaff; I > expect I=92d have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. > Comments and opinions much appreciated. > > > Pat Kelley ' RV-6A ' Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. > > ======================== > ======================== > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:45 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: skin dents The words "have to" are the ones that concern me. Isn't a tech counselor advisory in nature? do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denis Walsh Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Let me be the first to cry horseshit. Get another opinion. My dents now have 1970 hours. Denis Walsh On May 23, 2007, at 07:58 287230005, Patrick Kelley wrote: How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones. Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. - The RV-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:24 AM PST US From: mark phipps Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Pat, most of us have a few dings in our rivet work and most are cosmetic. I can't give firm advice without seeing the dings in person, but, if they don't have sharp bends that likely could start worrying they probably are cosmetic. I can't imagine why the advice was they are cosmetic but must be repaired. I think his advice is based upon certified aircraft. Have a tech counselor or two look at your work and offer thier opinion. I would be surprised if they require the major rework you mentioned. Mark Phipps, N242RP, flying RV6A, "Gypsy Spirit" Patrick Kelley wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional oops did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones. Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at my aircraft. Hes an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didnt know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teachers comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, Im horrified by the thought of putting 2-3 holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I havent looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair and also wont the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure? Im not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (hes the only one near Flagstaff; I expect Id have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. Pat Kelley RV-6A Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48517/*http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 hot CTA = Join our Network Research Panel ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:37 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Yes, we tech counselors only give advice. It's up to the builder to follow our advice, or not. I agree with the others on this one. If in doubt, get another opinion. The DAR would be the one to worry about when it comes to mandatory fixes, if needed. I see this Tech Couselor holds a A&P with IA. At 88, does he still practice his trade? If not, he may have forgotten a few things, along the way. The TC I had look at my project hadn't done metal work for many years and didn't give much useful advice. Since your teacher was also an IA holder, I'd be looking more at that one's advice. I'm not an A&P and would not risk the skin strength to put patches there. For that matter, if you put flush patches in, you'll mess up the way the skin lays on the spars. Not good, either. I have a few dings of my own in my -7A project. You can betcha they'll remain as is. :-) Jim Sears in KY EAA Tech Counselor ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Collins To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 10:51 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: skin dents The words "have to" are the ones that concern me. Isn't a tech counselor advisory in nature? do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Denis Walsh Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:21 AM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Let me be the first to cry horseshit. Get another opinion. My dents now have 1970 hours. Denis Walsh On May 23, 2007, at 07:58 287230005, Patrick Kelley wrote: How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones. Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. - The RV-List Email Forum - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:02 AM PST US From: "Patrick Kelley" Subject: RE: RV-List: skin dents Thanks to all who've replied. I feel much better. I will go for a second opinion just to be sure (not to say you guys aren't great but a pair of eyes on the problem would have to be better than my verbal description.) Any RV owners/Tech Advisors wanting an excuse to fly to Flagstaff out there? Test your landing/takeoff performance at 7000'? I'd like to be sure that the next guy who looks at my plane knows what I'm doing. Pat Kelley - RV-6A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:12 AM PST US From: John Fasching Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Get some two part filler - its either Miracle Fill or Super Fill, I forget which...it will absolutely stick and you can fill the dents, sand them and then paint over.....I did this 12-years ago on my RV6A and none of the fill ever came loose....whatever you do DO NOT use Bondo...it WILL crack. Don't cut those holes...that's really crazy John Patrick Kelley wrote: > > Thanks to all who've replied. I feel much better. I will go for a > second opinion just to be sure (not to say you guys aren't great but a > pair of eyes on the problem would have to be better than my verbal > description.) Any RV owners/Tech Advisors wanting an excuse to fly > to Flagstaff out there? Test your landing/takeoff performance at > 7000'? I'd like to be sure that the next guy who looks at my plane > knows what I'm doing. > > > > Pat Kelley -- RV-6A > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:27 AM PST US From: carlos Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Patrick Kelley wrote: > > Thanks to all whove replied. I feel much better. I will go for a > second opinion just to be sure (not to say you guys arent great but a > pair of eyes on the problem would have to be better than my verbal > description.) Any RV owners/Tech Advisors wanting an excuse to fly to > Flagstaff out there? Test your landing/takeoff performance at 7000? > Id like to be sure that the next guy who looks at my plane knows what > Im doing. > > Pat Kelley RV-6A > > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Pat, Try Ron Smith. He lives in Goodyear, AZ (623) 935-5676. He has a bunch of experience with RV construction ( 4, 6, 7, 8's) and built and flies a 6A also. He's my tech while I'm building my 7A. He's 71 but don't let that bother you. He's a sharp minded individual. Carlos in AZ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:12 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Don't do it. If the ding is only cosmetic - cover it and live with it. I attempted to fix a ding in my aileron skin - ended up work hardening and cracking it. Then put a patch in following the standard A&P practice you described. With all the rivets, it ended up looking like someone had patched where a 75mm round went through a Sherman tank. Bound to have affected the weight and balance as well. I ended up trashing that one and building a new aileron. So don't do it. Not necessary and sure not pretty. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Kelley To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RV-List: skin dents How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from someone whose airframe is so far done, so let me give some background. I learned to rivet on my horizontal stabilizer. At the time, I was working for American International Airways and I got one of the IAs to come over and teach me. Predictably, I dented a few spots and was reassured that the dings were slight, not structural, and would be easily covered up. So, as I continued to build, the occasional 'oops' did not overly concern me; I got much better at avoiding them and even when they did occur they were less severe than my first ones. Now fast forward to yesterday. I got a tech advisor to come out and look at my aircraft. He's an 88 y.o. IA who knew of the RV-6A but was a little fuzzy on the details (he didn't know the cowl was fiberglass or that piano hinge was used to attach it, for instance). But I respected his years of experience and followed his comments. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Well, I'm horrified by the thought of putting 2"-3" holes in my skin and I have no idea how I would do it without damaging the structure underneath anyway. I haven't looked in the AC yet to see what they recommend, but can this be right? My concerns are: doing more damage than good while trying to repair and also won't the patches affect the integrity of the monocoque structure? I'm not dodging the fact that there are dings; there are about a couple dozen throughout the whole structure. But before I proceed, I want to know if I should get another tech advisor (he's the only one near Flagstaff; I expect I'd have to get someone from Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:02 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents Pat, as others have said... do not cut the skins to repair cosmetic flaws. I too had a few and intended to fill them with an epoxy putty made with a sandable filler. When I decided to have the plane painted by a professional aircraft paint shop, I talked to the owner about doing this and he said to let them do it. They use a material called Piranha Putty. In one case, where I dropped a bucking bar into the inside of the leading edge of the wing, they took a blunt punch and made an "inside" dent out of the "outside" dent and the filled the dent and sanded it smooth. This was all done with the approval of their in-house A&P mechanic. I am going to the paint shop tomorrow and will try to remember to ask them about the source of the Piranha Putty and pass it along to you. Dale Ensing RV-6A EAA Tech Councilor and Flight Advisor ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Kelley To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 9:58 AM Subject: RV-List: skin dents ................. Then he focused on the dents and said they would HAVE to be fixed; they looked like hell. When I asked how, he said I would have to cut out a circle from the skin, large enough to clear the affected rivet and its neighbors, and rivet in a patch. I was floored. By the way, he admitted, when I mentioned my teacher's comments, that the damage was cosmetic, not structural, but still insisted that it needed to be fixed. Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:22 PM PST US From: PeterHunt1@AOL.COM Subject: RV-List: RE: Tip Up Canopy Query Regarding the new front seal now available for the tip-up canopy, Bill writes: "Please post details, price, address, method of payment. Count me in." This week the manufacturing equipment is being set up to make this specialty run. It should be ready for shipping buy May 30th. I can sell it for $5.00 a foot. Just drop me a check. I'll pay all shipping and any sales tax for anyone that wants a piece. No adhesive is needed. The "C" channel which slides over the rear facing edge (onto which the front of the tip-up canopy closes) has tiny fingers inside the "C" facing rearward. These fingers allow the seal/gasket to slide on, but resist sliding off. Therefore, it installs in just a minute. Cut it to length, push it on and you are done. I have been flying my RV-6 with the prototype seal/gasket for almost a year and it works great. Pete Hunt 849 Harbor Island Clearwater, FL 33767 727-447-6409 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:16 PM PST US From: Rick Galati Subject: RV-List: RE: skin dents Pat, Your TC meant well. If the "dents" are indeed cosmetic they can be dealt with later. Without a close up inspection or at least pictures and actual locations, it is impossible for anyone here to offer anything more than generic advice. We all have a different interpretation of what is "cosmetic." I know some builders will accept a poor level of craftsmanship from themselves that other builders would never think to tolerate. Similarly, a given individual's idea of damage can be a relative thing compared to the perception of the next guy. Your post seemed to convey that the TC seemed especially alarmed and I suspect some of the dents may have exceeded what most casual observers would normally consider to be cosmetic. As an active TC, I can assure you our services are advisory in nature and no authority exists to make you do anything. That is not what we do. Eventually however, your RV will be subject to a more formal inspection by the FAA or its designee to acquire its airworthiness certificate. Perhaps your TC knows something about the practices of your local FSDO or DAR that we don't. In any event, get a second or even third opinion. Good luck. Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla!" RV-8 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:34 PM PST US From: "Patrick Kelley" Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents That's somewhat my feeling, too. Others have looked at the plane and not commented about the quality of riveting, so I was somewhat surprised - but even more by the suggested repair method. However, if he is right I need to know; I am very aware that I am a novice builder. And, conversely, if he is wrong I need to know that as well. Your advice of getting a second on-site inspection is already being planned, as soon as I can locate another TC. PatK _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:11 PM Subject: RV-List: RE: skin dents Pat, Your TC meant well. If the "dents" are indeed cosmetic they can be dealt with later. Without a close up inspection or at least pictures and actual locations, it is impossible for anyone here to offer anything more than generic advice. We all have a different interpretation of what is "cosmetic." I know some builders will accept a poor level of craftsmanship from themselves that other builders would never think to tolerate. Similarly, a given individual's idea of damage can be a relative thing compared to the perception of the next guy. Your post seemed to convey that the TC seemed especially alarmed and I suspect some of the dents may have exceeded what most casual observers would normally consider to be cosmetic. As an active TC, I can assure you our services are advisory in nature and no authority exists to make you do anything. That is not what we do. Eventually however, your RV will be subject to a more formal inspection by the FAA or its designee to acquire its airworthiness certificate. Perhaps your TC knows something about the practices of your local FSDO or DAR that we don't. In any event, get a second or even third opinion. Good luck. Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla!" RV-8 Fuselage ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:31 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents Pat, I remember when I was getting started on my RV-8A project one of the most difficult aspects was to try to understand the quality level required. It became obvious that "Perfect" was going to be a rare occurrence, but the difference between acceptable and not acceptable was and sometimes still is difficult for my novice eye to distinguish. In making that distinction I would suggest that you keep in mind that structural or mechanical or electrical integrity is far more important than esthetics. I remember reading that Japanese art sometimes includes an obvious imperfection in order to avoid the pretense of perfection and therefore insult the gods. My airplane will require no such intentional imperfections, but I do intend for it to have complete integrity as a flying machine. Terry _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Kelley Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents That's somewhat my feeling, too. Others have looked at the plane and not commented about the quality of riveting, so I was somewhat surprised - but even more by the suggested repair method. However, if he is right I need to know; I am very aware that I am a novice builder. And, conversely, if he is wrong I need to know that as well. Your advice of getting a second on-site inspection is already being planned, as soon as I can locate another TC. PatK ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:41 PM PST US From: "Rick Leach" Subject: RV-List: Panel Thought I would just pipe in for some opinions since we are on the panel subject. I have been really looking hard at the OP system. I spoke with them at Sun-n-fun and I am pretty impressed with the system. (Of course the vendor is going to make it look real good.) Has anyone else looked at the op system compared to the Chelton? If so, what do you think. I like the integrated idea and it actually seems to offer more than the G900, i.e. synthetic flight. Comments! Rick Leach 40397 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:36 PM PST US From: "John Jessen" Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents Apparently, so did the Shaker furniture makers of years ago. John J 40328 do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents Pat, I remember when I was getting started on my RV-8A project one of the most difficult aspects was to try to understand the quality level required. It became obvious that "Perfect" was going to be a rare occurrence, but the difference between acceptable and not acceptable was and sometimes still is difficult for my novice eye to distinguish. In making that distinction I would suggest that you keep in mind that structural or mechanical or electrical integrity is far more important than esthetics. I remember reading that Japanese art sometimes includes an obvious imperfection in order to avoid the pretense of perfection and therefore insult the gods. My airplane will require no such intentional imperfections, but I do intend for it to have complete integrity as a flying machine. Terry _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Kelley Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: skin dents That's somewhat my feeling, too. Others have looked at the plane and not commented about the quality of riveting, so I was somewhat surprised - but even more by the suggested repair method. However, if he is right I need to know; I am very aware that I am a novice builder. And, conversely, if he is wrong I need to know that as well. Your advice of getting a second on-site inspection is already being planned, as soon as I can locate another TC. PatK ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:00 PM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV-List: Panel Rick, Re Op Tech. I'm obviously biased as I chose Op Tech for my RV-10. http://deemsrv10.com/album/Panel/slides/DSC03330.html (page fwd and back LOTS of Screen pics in this album.) For those who will take the time to look and compare, it's clear to me that they have : 1. Larger Screens 2. Brighter Screens (1500 nit) 3. More information displayable on a screen 4. Better Resolution 5.Price includes an engine management system 6. Integrated IFR Charts 7. WSI or XM weather 8. Option for remote installation of avionics 9. More functionality than Chelton and LESS $'s Op Tech is an option on the New EPIC (Chelton is not) along w/ Garmin 1000 Op Tech is the standard in the Javelin. Talking to their owner/president Dexter Turner, they are expanding and continuing to hire people and have recently moved into a larger facility, all signs of a growing company (compare to D2A) Lot's of the Lancair crowd have discovered them and I'm seeing more and more of them installed. I haven't flown it yet (other than 40 hours in DEMO mode) so take this 2 cents for what it's worth. Deems Davis # 406 Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! ) http://deemsrv10.com/ Rick Leach wrote: > Thought I would just pipe in for some opinions since we are on the panel > subject. I have been really looking hard at the OP system. I spoke with > them at Sun-n-fun and I am pretty impressed with the system. (Of course the > vendor is going to make it look real good.) Has anyone else looked at the > op system compared to the Chelton? If so, what do you think. I like the > integrated idea and it actually seems to offer more than the G900, i.e. > synthetic flight. Comments! > > > > Rick Leach > > 40397 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:32 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Panel From: "John W. Cox" One additional feature #10 would be the ability to display video format using an IR sensitive, motion stabilized tail mounted camera. Oregon Aero has put one on a Pilatus PC-12 for entry at night onto wildlife enriched airport environments. The Garmin 900X has made some inroads into the Epic production line. It is a very competitive market which is good for all of us shopping. John C -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Deems Davis Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 3:57 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Panel Rick, Re Op Tech. I'm obviously biased as I chose Op Tech for my RV-10. http://deemsrv10.com/album/Panel/slides/DSC03330.html (page fwd and back LOTS of Screen pics in this album.) For those who will take the time to look and compare, it's clear to me that they have : 1. Larger Screens 2. Brighter Screens (1500 nit) 3. More information displayable on a screen 4. Better Resolution 5.Price includes an engine management system 6. Integrated IFR Charts 7. WSI or XM weather 8. Option for remote installation of avionics 9. More functionality than Chelton and LESS $'s Op Tech is an option on the New EPIC (Chelton is not) along w/ Garmin 1000 Op Tech is the standard in the Javelin. Talking to their owner/president Dexter Turner, they are expanding and continuing to hire people and have recently moved into a larger facility, all signs of a growing company (compare to D2A) Lot's of the Lancair crowd have discovered them and I'm seeing more and more of them installed. I haven't flown it yet (other than 40 hours in DEMO mode) so take this 2 cents for what it's worth. Deems Davis # 406 Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! ) http://deemsrv10.com/ Rick Leach wrote: > Thought I would just pipe in for some opinions since we are on the panel > subject. I have been really looking hard at the OP system. I spoke with > them at Sun-n-fun and I am pretty impressed with the system. (Of course the > vendor is going to make it look real good.) Has anyone else looked at the > op system compared to the Chelton? If so, what do you think. I like the > integrated idea and it actually seems to offer more than the G900, i.e. > synthetic flight. Comments! > > > > Rick Leach > > 40397 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:49 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: RV-List: Sniffle Valve Most production IO-360s in certificated aircraft like my Mooney have sniffle valves. James H Nelson wrote: > > Mark > I believe that the sniffle valve is for carburated engines. Its > purpose is to remove any fuel that might pool in the bottom of the air > cleaner from to vigorous application of the throttle during starting. > That is the fire hazard. With fuel injection, fuel is only put into the > engine at the intake valve. It will be difficult but possible to get > fuel to run back down and into the air cleaner area. Pumping the > throttle during start will not add any additional fuel to the slow moving > air stream. IMHO, anything is possible but with FI, you will have > flooded the engine seriously. to get in that condition. I could be wrong > in these scenarios but I am not installing one in my IO 360. > > > Jim > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:58 PM PST US From: "davercook" Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch Listers A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of. David R. Cook RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:54 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch davercook wrote: > Listers > > A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a > problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the > stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" > the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question > Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the > only thing I can think of. > David R. Cook > RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours > > * It's been a long time since I built the elevators on my -7 project, but IIRC, the control horns have enough meat to allow aligning the elevators properly & then drilling as needed, with the holes possibly not centered. Remember, the -9 has a totally different hor. tail. Charlie ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:29 PM PST US From: "Don Vs" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch When your friend gets to drilling the horns he will read that they almost never match. The elevators may not actually be in trail when the copunterbalance arms ate not matched to the HS. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of davercook Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:44 PM To: RV-List Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch Listers A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of. David R. Cook RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:57 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch The control horns matching is irrelevant. They don't factor in this process at all. The only thing that needs to happen here is the elevators trailing edge aligning with one another while the counterbalance arms clamped. I would want to confirm this a little more and I think I would clamp the arms...and take a laser level and -- making sure the HS is level, of course -- line it with the trailing edge on one and see how the other stacks up. At the same time, that should, I would think, reveal any twist in the individual elevator. Do not archive. _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of davercook Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch Listers A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of. David R. Cook RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:18 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch The problem is that he is aligning the control arms. The instructions specifically state that it is not necessary nor appropriate to line up the control arms. One aligns the two sides of the elevator and then drills the control arms at the same time with some sort of jig to make sure you are drilling perpendicular to the arms. The control arms typically do not line up perfectly. Unless they are so far out that one cannot drill straight through both without getting too close to the edge of one or the other there is no problem. Dick Tasker davercook wrote: > Listers > > A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a > problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the > stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up > 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. > Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it > is the only thing I can think of. > David R. Cook > RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours > >* > > >* > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:39 PM PST US From: "Neal George" Subject: RV-List: FS: MT Prop Gov Listers - I have a new MT prop governor for sale. $1075, shipped. Neal E. George 2023 Everglades Drive Navarre, FL 32566 Home - 850-515-0640 Cell - 850-218-4838 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:53 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch In a message dated 5/23/2007 6:47:02 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, davercook@prodigy.net writes: A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of. ==================================== I can't believe that Van's hasn't solved this problem in the 12 or 15 years since it has been going on. I ended up cutting, undersleeving and rewelding one side to reclock it, so I wasn't ashamed to put that poor fitting original piece of cr** on the plane. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 845hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:17 PM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: FS: MT Prop Gov It would be nice if you listed the MT governor part number. That way the correct engine usage could be determined. Perhaps from my MT Propeller Governor page on my website, _www.lessdrag.com_ (http://www.lessdrag.com/) Regards, Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. 805-795-5377 In a message dated 05/23/2007 7:42:05 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, neal.george@mchsi.com writes: Listers - I have a new MT prop governor for sale. $1075, shipped. Neal E. George 2023 Everglades Drive Navarre, FL 32566 Home - 850-515-0640 Cell - 850-218-4838 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:26 PM PST US From: "Michael D. Cencula" Subject: Re: RV-List: skin dents FWIW, careful pushing with a popsicle stick or other small piece of wood can greatly reduce the appearance of dents in skins. I've repaired a couple small dents using this method in my empennage skins. Mike On Wednesday May 23 2007 09:58 am, Patrick Kelley wrote: > How to deal with skin dents? This may be an odd question coming from > Phoenix) or if he is right. Comments and opinions much appreciated. > > > Pat Kelley - RV-6A - Odd tasks while waiting for avionics. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:05 PM PST US From: "Karl Ahamer" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch I had a similar problem in my 6A just not as much mismatch.Had the holes in the control horns welded up (actually just in one of them) aligned the elevators and redrilled. It is very important to use a predrilled block of hard material to guide the drillbit so it is exactly perpendicular to the control horns. Was a simple fix. Regards Karl Ahamer 7A near Sydney(cowling=85.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of davercook Sent: Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:44 AM Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Elevator mismatch Listers A friend is building a 9a. When I visited him today, he showed me a problem with his elevators. With the elevators in trail with the stabilizer, the counter balance arms did not align. One arm was up 3/8" the other was down 3/8" while the control horns were matched. Question Any one else have this problem? Hard to see any twist, but it is the only thing I can think of. David R. Cook RV-6 N815DC Flying 11Hours "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?RV-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 23/05/2007 3:59 PM 23/05/2007 3:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.