Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:34 AM - Re: Re: RV-7 engine/prop options (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
2. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: RV-7 engine/prop options (Brian Meyette)
3. 06:10 PM - Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (Vince-Himsl)
4. 06:31 PM - Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (Kyle Boatright)
5. 08:00 PM - Re: CHT vents (dick martin)
6. 08:04 PM - Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (Larry Bowen)
7. 08:08 PM - Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (dick martin)
8. 08:30 PM - Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (Bobby Hester)
9. 09:20 PM - Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (Vince-Himsl)
10. 10:30 PM - Engine sag- was Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
11. 11:35 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
12. 11:40 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 engine/prop options |
I wrote this some time ago and it never was posted. Here it is now for what
its worth!
Some engine building thoughts:
I agree with Stein here -- go get an overhaul manual (and the parts catalog)
and do it yourself. Send the parts out and get everything yellow tagged,
install new parts where recommended, and save all the tags and receipts in a
folder. After all, a Lycoming is a just a 4 cylinder version of a Briggs &
Stratton. Well, it turns out that it is not quite that simple, but still there
is
usually only one way that the parts will fit. In a way its like building the
rest of the airplane. There is help available on this list or on the Matronics
engine list. Just take your time at each step and get it right. If there is
any doubt, stop and get advice. The manuals are pretty thorough. One
exception is that there are some bolt torques that are not called out that should
be.
I'm thinking here of the bolts that hold the idler shafts to the case.
Using the recommended torque for that size bolt will strip the threads in the
case. (How do I know that?)
The ONLY way you are going to know what is in your engine is to put it
together yourself. You will find that you will have to make some compromises --
nothing is perfect. For example, I try my best to make sure the pieces in my
engine are matched for balance, but they never come out exact. (I haven't yet
reached the point of being able to balance connecting rods, so I must choose
from what is available. I don't trust the local hot rod shops to appreciate the
stresses in a 2700 RPM Lyc. Or to fully appreciate the fact that lives could
be at stake if one should fail. These rods are harder to balance because they
do not have extra weight at each end for balancing purposes like auto engine
rods.) Here is a case where Lycoming has a pretty wide window, but the engine
will run with less vibration if the rods (and pistons) are matched. In my
case, I put the closest pair in the rear of the engine with hopes that balancing
the prop will correct the front pair. If they are too far apart, I get more
rods and choose a closer pair. This gets expensive. Economics forces some
compromises. There is no way around it. There is no perfect engine. The
clearances are often not exactly where you'd like them to be. There is usually
a
pretty wide tolerance band, but you don't want to be too close to either end of
it. I wonder if all builders check the dry lifter clearance. I had to order
new pushrods to get all of them in tolerance. Once you have decided that its
good enough, you have to live with it. Believe me, you will care more about
how well your engine is put together than anyone else who might put it
together for you.
Just because someone builds airboat engines doesn't mean they don't know what
they're doing. I'm sure there are some good ones out there. I think Stein
was speaking in terms of probability. On the other hand just because someone
has a fancy shop that builds only aircraft engines doesn't mean that they
always do it right either, or that they are as particular as they ought to be.
They run into compromising choices that they have to make every day. Hopefully,
their experience has taught them how to make those choices. Its a matter of
knowing and doing what is right -- its a matter of integrity.
After a prop strike I personally disassembled my engine (which was put
together by a reputable shop) and found a few things that really disappointed me.
Here are some examples:
1. Rod nuts were not a matched set. Some looked more oil stained than
others. Some were different styles than the several sets that I have bought.
I'm
not sure if they were for an IO-360, or not. They probably were not new when
the engine was overhauled. This makes me wonder about the stretch type rod
bolts -- very critical parts in a 200 HP IO-360. These must be replaced at
overhaul.
2. Genuine silk thread was not used to seal the case halves. Cotton (or
synthetic) thread was used and it fell apart when the case was separated. I
could pick up a piece of the thread and pull it apart with my fingers. If it were
silk, I couldn't do that. The pattern it left showed that part of it was not
on the surface of the case, but had fallen inside the engine during assembly.
The engine had a pesky oil leak in that area -- this could well have been
the cause.
3. The engine always vibrated more than I thought it should. Dynamically
balancing the prop didn't help. This could have been due to rod weight mismatch
or it could have been the prop -- no way to tell now. When I installed the
engine I assembled, the vibration was noticeably better, but it is not the same
prop. I took out a counterweighted IO-360 engine (-C1E6) and installed one
without the counter weights (-A1A). I am now assembling the original
counterweighted engine with a new crank. (Read ahead and this will make more sense.)
4. Would you believe the engine had a left turning crank in it? Yes, it
did. I have mentioned this on this list before. This puts the oil holes in a
less than optimum position for oiling the rod bearings when it is used in a
normal turning engine. In fact, it puts them in about the worst location. Some
say this will work OK, some say it will eat up the rod bearings. I only had
about 160 hours on the engine and the bearings didn't look too bad, but who
knows? I couldn't live with myself if I put it back it my own plane, let alone
someone else's. The FAA is looking in to this one.
If you have never done this kind of work before, maybe you would be better
off having someone else do it for you. Experience is a good teacher, but it can
be an expensive way to learn things! I can't wholeheartedly suggest that
everyone should build their own engine. It is really stressful. There is a lot
to worry about -- at least it causes me a lot of worry. But after I have it
done, I have pretty high confidence that it is going to serve me well. I don't
have a lot of experience with aircraft engines. Most of my engine building
experience was in the circle track racing business. And that was only building
engines for my own car. If I didn't have that experience, I don't know if I
would have the confidence to attempt an engine for my airplane. I built my
race engines because I couldn't afford to buy as good of engine as I could
build, so it made economic sense at the time. BTW this was quite some time ago!
Well, there's some of my thoughts on engine assembly. I'm sure not everyone
will agree with what I've written, so I'll go look for my old Nomex underwear!
Best regards,
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
In a message dated 4/24/2007 12:26:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
Why not do it yourself? It's not difficult or hard, nor requires many
special tools. Buy the overhaul manual, buy the parts and "get 'er done"!
One thing I would stay away from is several of the airboat builders - don't
know specifically names, but I've seen plenty of their "handiwork" and have
not yet been overly impressed. One such engine just cost one of my
employees BIG TIME in $$'s and pain in the rear. Engine was "new" by an
airboat builder. I have the remains on the floor of my shop. Not just
substandard, but downright scary (mismatched rods, butchered crank,
mismatched cyliners, mismatched pistons, the list goes on and on).
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 engine/prop options |
Theres a page on my web site with lots of pics & details of how to build
your own Lycoming. Be clean & be careful & should be no problem
http://brian76.mystarband.net/SuperiorTextPics.htm
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hopperdhh@aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV-7 engine/prop options
I wrote this some time ago and it never was posted. Here it is now for what
its worth!
Some engine building thoughts:
I agree with Stein here -- go get an overhaul manual (and the parts catalog)
and do it yourself. Send the parts out and get everything yellow tagged,
install new parts where recommended, and save all the tags and receipts in a
folder. After all, a Lycoming is a just a 4 cylinder version of a Briggs &
Stratton. Well, it turns out that it is not quite that simple, but still
there is usually only one way that the parts will fit. In a way its like
building the rest of the airplane. There is help available on this list or
on the Matronics engine list. Just take your time at each step and get it
right. If there is any doubt, stop and get advice. The manuals are pretty
thorough. One exception is that there are some bolt torques that are not
called out that should be. I'm thinking here of the bolts that hold the
idler shafts to the case. Using the recommended torque for that size bolt
will strip the threads in the case. (How do I know that?)
The ONLY way you are going to know what is in your engine is to put it
together yourself. You will find that you will have to make some
compromises -- nothing is perfect. For example, I try my best to make sure
the pieces in my engine are matched for balance, but they never come out
exact. (I haven't yet reached the point of being able to balance connecting
rods, so I must choose from what is available. I don't trust the local hot
rod shops to appreciate the stresses in a 2700 RPM Lyc. Or to fully
appreciate the fact that lives could be at stake if one should fail. These
rods are harder to balance because they do not have extra weight at each end
for balancing purposes like auto engine rods.) Here is a case where
Lycoming has a pretty wide window, but the engine will run with less
vibration if the rods (and pistons) are matched. In my case, I put the
closest pair in the rear of the engine with hopes that balancing the prop
will correct the front pair. If they are too far apart, I get more rods and
choose a closer pair. This gets expensive. Economics forces some
compromises. There is no way around it. There is no perfect engine. The
clearances are often not exactly where you'd like them to be. There is
usually a pretty wide tolerance band, but you don't want to be too close to
either end of it. I wonder if all builders check the dry lifter clearance.
I had to order new pushrods to get all of them in tolerance. Once you have
decided that its good enough, you have to live with it. Believe me, you
will care more about how well your engine is put together than anyone else
who might put it together for you.
Just because someone builds airboat engines doesn't mean they don't know
what they're doing. I'm sure there are some good ones out there. I think
Stein was speaking in terms of probability. On the other hand just because
someone has a fancy shop that builds only aircraft engines doesn't mean that
they always do it right either, or that they are as particular as they ought
to be. They run into compromising choices that they have to make every day.
Hopefully, their experience has taught them how to make those choices. Its
a matter of knowing and doing what is right -- its a matter of integrity.
After a prop strike I personally disassembled my engine (which was put
together by a reputable shop) and found a few things that really
disappointed me. Here are some examples:
1. Rod nuts were not a matched set. Some looked more oil stained than
others. Some were different styles than the several sets that I have
bought. I'm not sure if they were for an IO-360, or not. They probably
were not new when the engine was overhauled. This makes me wonder about the
stretch type rod bolts -- very critical parts in a 200 HP IO-360. These
must be replaced at overhaul.
2. Genuine silk thread was not used to seal the case halves. Cotton (or
synthetic) thread was used and it fell apart when the case was separated. I
could pick up a piece of the thread and pull it apart with my fingers. If
it were silk, I couldn't do that. The pattern it left showed that part of
it was not on the surface of the case, but had fallen inside the engine
during assembly. The engine had a pesky oil leak in that area -- this could
well have been the cause.
3. The engine always vibrated more than I thought it should. Dynamically
balancing the prop didn't help. This could have been due to rod weight
mismatch or it could have been the prop -- no way to tell now. When I
installed the engine I assembled, the vibration was noticeably better, but
it is not the same prop. I took out a counterweighted IO-360 engine (-C1E6)
and installed one without the counter weights (-A1A). I am now assembling
the original counterweighted engine with a new crank. (Read ahead and this
will make more sense.)
4. Would you believe the engine had a left turning crank in it? Yes, it
did. I have mentioned this on this list before. This puts the oil holes in
a less than optimum position for oiling the rod bearings when it is used in
a normal turning engine. In fact, it puts them in about the worst location.
Some say this will work OK, some say it will eat up the rod bearings. I
only had about 160 hours on the engine and the bearings didn't look too bad,
but who knows? I couldn't live with myself if I put it back it my own
plane, let alone someone else's. The FAA is looking in to this one.
If you have never done this kind of work before, maybe you would be better
off having someone else do it for you. Experience is a good teacher, but it
can be an expensive way to learn things! I can't wholeheartedly suggest
that everyone should build their own engine. It is really stressful. There
is a lot to worry about -- at least it causes me a lot of worry. But after
I have it done, I have pretty high confidence that it is going to serve me
well. I don't have a lot of experience with aircraft engines. Most of my
engine building experience was in the circle track racing business. And
that was only building engines for my own car. If I didn't have that
experience, I don't know if I would have the confidence to attempt an engine
for my airplane. I built my race engines because I couldn't afford to buy
as good of engine as I could build, so it made economic sense at the time.
BTW this was quite some time ago!
Well, there's some of my thoughts on engine assembly. I'm sure not everyone
will agree with what I've written, so I'll go look for my old Nomex
underwear!
Best regards,
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
In a message dated 4/24/2007 12:26:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
Why not do it yourself? It's not difficult or hard, nor requires many
special tools. Buy the overhaul manual, buy the parts and "get 'er done"!
One thing I would stay away from is several of the airboat builders - don't
know specifically names, but I've seen plenty of their "handiwork" and have
not yet been overly impressed. One such engine just cost one of my
employees BIG TIME in $$'s and pain in the rear. Engine was "new" by an
airboat builder. I have the remains on the floor of my shop. Not just
substandard, but downright scary (mismatched rods, butchered crank,
mismatched cyliners, mismatched pistons, the list goes on and on).
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
4:51 PM
Message 3
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| Subject: | Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close |
Problem:
My spinner to cowl gap / clearance is 1/16 to 3/16 inches. The plans say it
should be 3/16" to 1/4" (Rv8)
Questions:
How close is too close? Has anybody had spinner experiences that 'rubbed'
them the wrong way? Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to avoid
doing that?
Thanks!
Vince H.
Sooooo tired of the cowl.
RV8 - VSB Moscow, ID USA
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close |
The thing to consider is that you'll want to get the cowl on and off
without dinging the paint on the spinner or the cowl. Also, remember
that the baffle seal material on the air inlets for cooling air and the
carb (if you have one) makes removing and replacing the lower cowl
easier if you can slide the cowl forward slightly.
Personally, I'd trim the cowl so the top edge of the bottom cowl has
1/4" clearance. The top cowl *should* lift right off, so you can use
less clearance there if it works out that way.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: Vince-Himsl
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: RV-List: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close
Problem:
My spinner to cowl gap / clearance is 1/16 to 3/16 inches. The plans
say it should be 3/16" to 1/4" (Rv8)
Questions:
How close is too close? Has anybody had spinner experiences that
'rubbed' them the wrong way? Does anyone have any suggestions as to how
to avoid doing that?
Thanks!
Vince H.
Sooooo tired of the cowl.
RV8 - VSB Moscow, ID USA
Message 5
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Tim,
8 years ago when I finished my RV8, I encountered similar problems with
temps. After trying a lot of different fixes, it was suggested that my
electronic ignition was set to far advanced. I reset the ignition timing
(with more care and also reread the instructions) and have had no problems
since. Also loose fitting of engine baffles etc will also cause your
problems. Good luck.
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
the fast one
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Bryan" <n616tb@btsapps.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: CHT vents
>
> Bobby,
>
> My plane was essentially self grounded till I could fix the high CHT
> problem. I tightened up the cowl, sealed around the front intake ramps,
> put
> a door across the back of my oil cooler (cooler temps around 160-170) and
> absolutely no joy. Finally I added louvers I got from Alex De Dominicis
> in
> Texas. I think you can reach him through his website at
> http://www.RVtraining.com After this my plane was flying again. My CHT
> will still climb to near 450 on climb out sometimes but will be under 400
> for cruise. They do make a difference. I cannot say this is the cure all
> as Kevin mentioned there is a reason mine runs hot and so many others
> don't.
> I just don't know what it is.
>
> My next step is to remove some more of the lower cowling around the
> exhaust
> area as mine is particularly smaller since my scoop portion actually hangs
> back over the airframe about 2 inches. I am going to remove all of that
> this week before I fly this coming weekend. If you haven't done that, it
> would be advisable. I am still trying to get mine down quite a bit more.
>
> My plane is an RV-6 with 0-360A1A and constant speed prop. I am flying
> without wheel pants or leg fairings.
> Tim
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
>> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 8:47 AM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: CHT vents
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 28 May 2007 07:50:47 -0500
>> Bobby Hester <bobbyhester@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Ron, I saw an old post about your cowl louvers. Are they what made the
>> > big differance? My CHT's are getting up to 455 by about 2500 ft on
>> > climb
>> > out and then I level off til they come down to about 430 then I climb
>> > some more. At cruise I am seeing 410-420. I would really like to see
>> > them more like 350 at cruise. This is at about 87 degree F OAT on the
>> > ground. Any other suggestions? Were did you get you louvers?
>> >
>>
>> Bobby - If I understand properly, you have a 180 hp engine. There are
>> many, many RV-7/7As flying with this engine without CHT problems. While
>> adding cowl louvers might bring your CHTs down, I fear that you would
>> simply be curing the symptom, without really fixing the basic problem.
>> This could lead to greater grief down the road, if the basic problem is
>> significant. For example, some people have high CHTs due to a too lean
>> mixture, caused by the wrong carb. If this were the problem, it would be
>> far better to find it and fix it now.
>>
>> Kevin Horton
>> Ottawa, Canada
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close |
I would think 1/16" is too close. It will rub at start/shutdown. I have
3/16" I think and I'm glad it's not any less. I try to use towels between
the spinner/cowl when removing/installing the cowl.
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/1/07, Vince-Himsl <vhimsl@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Problem:
>
> My spinner to cowl gap / clearance is 1/16 to 3/16 inches. The plans say
> it should be 3/16" to 1/4" (Rv8)
>
>
> Questions:
>
> How close is too close? Has anybody had spinner experiences that 'rubbed'
> them the wrong way? Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to avoid
> doing that?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Vince H.
>
> Sooooo tired of the cowl.
>
> RV8 ' VSB Moscow, ID USA
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close |
Vince,
I fit mine 1/8" minimum-3/16"maximum. A close fit will improve airspeed
slightly and looks better. On a new airplane, fit the engine approx.
3/16" high because the engine will sag about that much in the first 100
hours.
Dick Martin
RV8 N233M
1500 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: Vince-Himsl
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:08 PM
Subject: RV-List: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close
Problem:
My spinner to cowl gap / clearance is 1/16 to 3/16 inches. The plans
say it should be 3/16" to 1/4" (Rv8)
Questions:
How close is too close? Has anybody had spinner experiences that
'rubbed' them the wrong way? Does anyone have any suggestions as to how
to avoid doing that?
Thanks!
Vince H.
Sooooo tired of the cowl.
RV8 - VSB Moscow, ID USA
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close |
I set mine that high and after 65 hrs it is still at the same height,
too high. I would set it flush with the top of the cowl.
Surfing the web with my laptop from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my RV7A website: http://webpages.charter.net/bobbyhester/MyFlyingRV7A.htm
dick martin wrote:
> Vince,
> I fit mine 1/8" minimum-3/16"maximum. A close fit will improve
> airspeed slightly and looks better. On a new airplane, fit the engine
> approx. 3/16" high because the engine will sag about that much in the
> first 100 hours.
> Dick Martin
> RV8 N233M
> 1500 hours
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Vince-Himsl <mailto:vhimsl@adelphia.net>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:08 PM
> Subject: RV-List: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close
>
> Problem:
>
> My spinner to cowl gap / clearance is 1/16 to 3/16 inches. The
> plans say it should be 3/16" to 1/4" (Rv8)
>
>
>
> Questions:
>
> How close is too close? Has anybody had spinner experiences that
> 'rubbed' them the wrong way? Does anyone have any suggestions as
> to how to avoid doing that?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Vince H.
>
> Sooooo tired of the cowl.
>
> RV8 - VSB Moscow, ID USA
>
>
>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
>href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close |
Thanks All!
I managed to eek out another 1/16=9D on the top so the spinner to
cowl clearance is roughly 1/8=9D top to 3/16=9D bottom.
Looks very cool (Catto 3 blade Prop) but I became worried about the
interference mainly because the cowl is all done, hinges cemented in
placeeverything. I even did some custom transition work where
the cowl meets the fuselage.
So I went panic mode when it began to look like I would have to rebuild
the front of my cowl to get the required clearance as I wasn=99t
about to try and remove the hinges and start over. I will try and eek
out some more space further trimming the spinner but I am already at the
backplate.
Even with the tight clearance, I can remove the cowl without removing
the spinner. Had some issues with excess baffle material and had to trim
the FAB fabricated inlet on the lower cowl, but it does come off. The
cowl is pretty tough too considering the number of times I threw it
across the garage. =98=BA
Again, Thanks for the help!
Vince H.
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vince-Himsl
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 6:09 PM
Subject: RV-List: Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too close
Problem:
My spinner to cowl gap / clearance is 1/16 to 3/16 inches. The plans say
it should be 3/16=9D to 1/4=9D (Rv8)
Questions:
How close is too close? Has anybody had spinner experiences that
=98rubbed=99 them the wrong way? Does anyone have any
suggestions as to how to avoid doing that?
Thanks!
Vince H.
Sooooo tired of the cowl.
RV8 =93 VSB Moscow, ID USA
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Engine sag- was Spinner to cowl clearance - How close is too |
close
In a message dated 6/1/2007 10:31:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
bobbyhester@charter.net writes:
I set mine that high and after 65 hrs it is still at the same height, too
high. I would set it flush with the top of the cowl.
>>>
This is a curiousity I've seen hashed over here and wondered about for a long
time- how about a "do not archive" poll of builders who have actually seen
engine sag or not, with perhaps some added info about engine type, c/s or f/p,
hours, flying style etc.?
Mark Phillips- O-320 RV-6A, f/p Catto 3-blade, very little high-G stuff, & no
sag after 415 hrs with Van's standard mounts...
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains RV-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
rv-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "rv-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the RV-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the RV-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* RV-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the RV-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* RV-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* RV-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* RV-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the RV-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Official RV-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RV-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RV-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
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