Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:23 AM - Lawrence, KS (Kevin Horton)
2. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: RV-7 engine/prop options (Charlie England)
3. 09:01 AM - Re: Engine Sag (don wentz)
4. 09:43 AM - Re: Engine Sag (jhnstniii@aol.com)
5. 11:17 AM - Re: Engine Sag (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
6. 12:33 PM - Garmin 196 help (Andy Gold)
7. 12:52 PM - Cowl hot spots (Vince-Himsl)
8. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: RV-7 engine/prop options (linn Walters)
9. 01:36 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (SteinAir, Inc.)
10. 01:51 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (J. R. Dial)
11. 02:00 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Larry Bowen)
12. 02:00 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Terry Watson)
13. 02:34 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Reuven Silberman)
14. 02:37 PM - Langley Fly-in June 23 (Tedd McHenry)
15. 03:00 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Ron Lee)
16. 03:18 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (David Burton)
17. 03:25 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Andy Gold)
18. 03:38 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (David Burton)
19. 03:45 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Chopper)
20. 03:46 PM - Re: Cowl hot spots (Randy Lervold)
21. 03:46 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Randy Lervold)
22. 05:29 PM - Re: Garmin 196 help (Ron Lee)
Message 1
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I'm going to be in Lawrence, KS until Friday. I'm not sure yet what
my schedule will look like, but I hope to have free time in the
evenings. If there are any local RV builders or flyers, I'd be
interested in meeting up, if our schedules are compatible.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 engine/prop options |
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for reposting so we can read about your experience. Your
experience really isn't all that rare, & that's what drove my original
question. It seems obvious to me that integrity & competence are far
more important than an A&P ticket if you want a good engine build.
I'm not afraid of building my own but I am a bit leery of buying a core
that costs as much as a typical auto conversion & then risk having to
buy something major like a crankshaft, pushing costs into the realm of a
new clone engine.
My original question was asked in the hope of finding people who have
had experience with 'alternative' (airboat) engine builders. It's
interesting that we've seen one 1st hand report of an airboat engine
disaster and one 1st hand account of a 'traditional' build disaster. In
addition, I also got a private email from someone who had a major
problem with one of the premier build shops that may end up in
litigation because they have not been responsive. Three 1st hand
accounts is much too small a sample size; I was hoping for more
response. Perhaps those who have been willing to 'go there' don't bother
with this list. :-)
Thanks,
Charlie
Hopperdhh@aol.com wrote:
> I wrote this some time ago and it never was posted. Here it is now for
> what its worth!
>
> Some engine building thoughts:
>
> I agree with Stein here -- go get an overhaul manual (and the parts
> catalog) and do it yourself. Send the parts out and get everything
> yellow tagged, install new parts where recommended, and save all the
> tags and receipts in a folder. After all, a Lycoming is a just a 4
> cylinder version of a Briggs & Stratton. Well, it turns out that it is
> not quite that simple, but still there is usually only one way that the
> parts will fit. In a way its like building the rest of the airplane.
> There is help available on this list or on the Matronics engine list.
> Just take your time at each step and get it right. If there is any
> doubt, stop and get advice. The manuals are pretty thorough. One
> exception is that there are some bolt torques that are not called out
> that should be. I'm thinking here of the bolts that hold the idler
> shafts to the case. Using the recommended torque for that size bolt
> will strip the threads in the case. (How do I know that?)
>
> The ONLY way you are going to know what is in your engine is to put it
> together yourself. You will find that you will have to make some
> compromises -- nothing is perfect. For example, I try my best to make
> sure the pieces in my engine are matched for balance, but they never
> come out exact. (I haven't yet reached the point of being able to
> balance connecting rods, so I must choose from what is available. I
> don't trust the local hot rod shops to appreciate the stresses in a 2700
> RPM Lyc. Or to fully appreciate the fact that lives could be at stake
> if one should fail. These rods are harder to balance because they do
> not have extra weight at each end for balancing purposes like auto
> engine rods.) Here is a case where Lycoming has a pretty wide window,
> but the engine will run with less vibration if the rods (and pistons)
> are matched. In my case, I put the closest pair in the rear of the
> engine with hopes that balancing the prop will correct the front pair.
> If they are too far apart, I get more rods and choose a closer pair.
> This gets expensive. Economics forces some compromises. There is no
> way around it. There is no perfect engine. The clearances are often
> not exactly where you'd like them to be. There is usually a pretty wide
> tolerance band, but you don't want to be too close to either end of it.
> I wonder if all builders check the dry lifter clearance. I had to order
> new pushrods to get all of them in tolerance. Once you have decided
> that its good enough, you have to live with it. Believe me, you will
> care more about how well your engine is put together than anyone else
> who might put it together for you.
>
> Just because someone builds airboat engines doesn't mean they don't know
> what they're doing. I'm sure there are some good ones out there. I
> think Stein was speaking in terms of probability. On the other hand
> just because someone has a fancy shop that builds only aircraft engines
> doesn't mean that they always do it right either, or that they are as
> particular as they ought to be. They run into compromising choices that
> they have to make every day. Hopefully, their experience has taught
> them how to make those choices. Its a matter of knowing and doing what
> is right -- its a matter of integrity.
>
> After a prop strike I personally disassembled my engine (which was put
> together by a reputable shop) and found a few things that really
> disappointed me. Here are some examples:
>
> 1. Rod nuts were not a matched set. Some looked more oil stained than
> others. Some were different styles than the several sets that I have
> bought. I'm not sure if they were for an IO-360, or not. They probably
> were not new when the engine was overhauled. This makes me wonder about
> the stretch type rod bolts -- very critical parts in a 200 HP IO-360.
> These must be replaced at overhaul.
>
> 2. Genuine silk thread was not used to seal the case halves. Cotton
> (or synthetic) thread was used and it fell apart when the case was
> separated. I could pick up a piece of the thread and pull it apart with
> my fingers. If it were silk, I couldn't do that. The pattern it left
> showed that part of it was not on the surface of the case, but had
> fallen inside the engine during assembly. The engine had a pesky oil
> leak in that area -- this could well have been the cause.
>
> 3. The engine always vibrated more than I thought it should.
> Dynamically balancing the prop didn't help. This could have been due to
> rod weight mismatch or it could have been the prop -- no way to tell
> now. When I installed the engine I assembled, the vibration was
> noticeably better, but it is not the same prop. I took out a
> counterweighted IO-360 engine (-C1E6) and installed one without the
> counter weights (-A1A). I am now assembling the original
> counterweighted engine with a new crank. (Read ahead and this will make
> more sense.)
>
> 4. Would you believe the engine had a left turning crank in it? Yes,
> it did. I have mentioned this on this list before. This puts the oil
> holes in a less than optimum position for oiling the rod bearings when
> it is used in a normal turning engine. In fact, it puts them in about
> the worst location. Some say this will work OK, some say it will eat up
> the rod bearings. I only had about 160 hours on the engine and the
> bearings didn't look too bad, but who knows? I couldn't live with
> myself if I put it back it my own plane, let alone someone else's. The
> FAA is looking in to this one.
>
> If you have never done this kind of work before, maybe you would be
> better off having someone else do it for you. Experience is a good
> teacher, but it can be an expensive way to learn things! I can't
> wholeheartedly suggest that everyone should build their own engine. It
> is really stressful. There is a lot to worry about -- at least it
> causes me a lot of worry. But after I have it done, I have pretty high
> confidence that it is going to serve me well. I don't have a lot of
> experience with aircraft engines. Most of my engine building
> experience was in the circle track racing business. And that was only
> building engines for my own car. If I didn't have that experience, I
> don't know if I would have the confidence to attempt an engine for my
> airplane. I built my race engines because I couldn't afford to buy as
> good of engine as I could build, so it made economic sense at the time.
> BTW this was quite some time ago!
>
> Well, there's some of my thoughts on engine assembly. I'm sure not
> everyone will agree with what I've written, so I'll go look for my old
> Nomex underwear!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dan Hopper
> RV-7A
>
>
>
> In a message dated 4/24/2007 12:26:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> stein@steinair.com writes:
>
>
> Why not do it yourself? It's not difficult or hard, nor requires many
> special tools. Buy the overhaul manual, buy the parts and "get 'er
> done"!
> One thing I would stay away from is several of the airboat builders
> - don't
> know specifically names, but I've seen plenty of their "handiwork"
> and have
> not yet been overly impressed. One such engine just cost one of my
> employees BIG TIME in $$'s and pain in the rear. Engine was "new" by an
> airboat builder. I have the remains on the floor of my shop. Not just
> substandard, but downright scary (mismatched rods, butchered crank,
> mismatched cyliners, mismatched pistons, the list goes on and on).
>
>
Message 3
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So many builders, so many different experiences.
I wonder if the mounts themselves affect this?
My O-360 RV-6 with wood prop initially sagged 3/16" (perfect, as I allowed
for it) when I first flew it in 94.
500hrs later I changed to a Hartzell CS and it sagged some more, so I
shimmed with some washers.
A local RV-8 builder allowed for a little sag, it sagged more than he
expected and is now about 3/16 low. This on a plane less than a year old
(O-360 CS).
So it will or it won't, regardless, you can fix it with the washers once you
know.
don
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PeterHunt1@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:58 PM
Subject: RV-List: Engine Sag
I built my engine cowl such that the spinner was 3/16 inches high because so
many claimed the engine would sag. That did NOT happen to mine. After 200
hours the spinner remained just as high. No engine sag occurred. Well, I
didn't like how it looked so I inserted an extra washer next to the engine
on the two top engine mount bolts. Spinner alignment looks very good now
and I didn't notice any performance change.
I installed a new O-360-A1A with CS prop. My experience is that if you
torque everything properly there is no measurable engine sag with time.
Pete In Clearwater
RV-6, all electric panel
Reserve Grand Champion, Outstanding Aircraft - Sun 'n Fun 2006, 2007
_____
See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
Message 4
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I wonder if the variations are due to some people not placing=C2-the hard
and soft durometers in the correct orientation.=C2- --LeRoy Johnston
-----Original Message-----
From: don wentz <dasduck@comcast.net>
Sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:59 am
Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Sag
So many builders, so many different experiences.
I wonder if the mounts themselves affect this?
My O-360 RV-6 with wood prop initially sagged 3/16" (perfect, as I allowed f
or it) when I first flew it in 94.
500hrs later I changed to a Hartzell CS and it sagged some more, so I shimme
d with some washers.
=C2-
A local RV-8 builder allowed for a little sag, it sagged more than he expect
ed and is now about 3/16 low.=C2- This on a plane less than a year old (O-
360 CS).
=C2-
So it will or it won't, regardless, you can fix it with the washers once you
know.
don
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matron
ics.com] On Behalf Of PeterHunt1@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 12:58 PM
Subject: RV-List: Engine Sag
I built my engine cowl such that the spinner was 3/16 inches high because so
many claimed the engine would sag.=C2- That did NOT happen to mine.=C2
- After 200 hours the spinner remained just as high.=C2- No engine=C2
-sag occurred.=C2- Well, I didn't like how it looked so I inserted an ex
tra washer next to the engine on the two top engine mount bolts.=C2- Spinn
er alignment looks very good now and I didn't notice any performance change.
=C2-
I=C2-installed a new=C2-O-360-A1A with CS prop.=C2- My experience is t
hat if you torque everything properly there is no measurable engine sag with
time.
=C2-
Pete In Clearwater
RV-6, all electric panel
Reserve Grand Champion, Outstanding Aircraft - Sun 'n Fun 2006, 2007
See what's free at AOL.com.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?RV-List
ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
-========================
-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums!
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-========================
________________________________________________________________________
AOL at AOL.com.
Message 5
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Me too. No engine sag so far. RV-6a with XP360. If I ever do another, I'll
build it win no anticipated sag.
Jerry
Time: 01:01:24 PM PST US
From: PeterHunt1@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: Engine Sag
I built my engine cowl such that the spinner was 3/16 inches high because
so
many claimed the engine would sag. That did NOT happen to mine. After 200
hours the spinner remained just as high. No engine sag occurred. Well, I
didn't like how it looked so I inserted an extra washer next to the engine
on
the two top engine mount bolts. Spinner alignment looks very good now and
I
didn't notice any performance change.
I installed a new O-360-A1A with CS prop. My experience is that if you
torque everything properly there is no measurable engine sag with time.
Pete In Clearwater
RV-6, all electric panel
Reserve Grand Champion, Outstanding Aircraft - Sun 'n Fun 2006, 2007
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 6
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I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the
90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day
VFR navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow
and it always took me right over the center of the destination airport.
(I never used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was because
the database was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web
sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I
use it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least
its updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all,
enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In
other words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to
the right, but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As
I get closer, this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the
airport the 196 does no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or
in the completely wrong direction. If I pass the airport with the 90,
the arrow points to the tail, tells me to turn around and then guides
you directly there, just like it should. This was an issue flying into
Craig, CO a little while ago. I was unfamiliar with the area, so I
trusted and followed the 196, right past town with the Garmin telling me
to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple thousand feet for a
better view, circle around, and find the airport the old fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing,
or does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or,
do I have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch,
or do I not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use
a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
Message 7
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I am applying the aluminum stick on foil to my lower cowl and would
appreciate builder experience with heat induced hot spots.
That is, were should I put the stuff?
So far, I have covered the aft 2/3 of the lower cowl with nothing on the
upper cowl (RV8).
Thanks!
Vince H.
RV8 - VSB . Finish (getting close)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV-7 engine/prop options |
Charlie England wrote:
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Thanks for reposting so we can read about your experience. Your
> experience really isn't all that rare, & that's what drove my original
> question. It seems obvious to me that integrity & competence are far
> more important than an A&P ticket if you want a good engine build.
>
> I'm not afraid of building my own but I am a bit leery of buying a
> core that costs as much as a typical auto conversion & then risk
> having to buy something major like a crankshaft, pushing costs into
> the realm of a new clone engine.
You might make that a condition of the sale. But then litigation is a
nasty way to spend your time. Maybe a non-refundable deposit may make
the difference. It's a gamble on both ends. The seller may not know
the engine (or parts) is crap.
> My original question was asked in the hope of finding people who have
> had experience with 'alternative' (airboat) engine builders.
I bought an airboat engine ..... that was built up from different case
halves. Sold it off as parts to another airboat engine builder. I
could have sent the case out and had it overhauled, but I didn't want to
take the chance. It wasn't a total disaster since I got all my money back.
> It's interesting that we've seen one 1st hand report of an airboat
> engine disaster and one 1st hand account of a 'traditional' build
> disaster. In addition, I also got a private email from someone who had
> a major problem with one of the premier build shops that may end up in
> litigation because they have not been responsive. Three 1st hand
> accounts is much too small a sample size; I was hoping for more
> response. Perhaps those who have been willing to 'go there' don't
> bother with this list. :-)
If you have a way to verify it's 'history', I'd be more inclined to
purchase a core. I have (right now) an O-320 and IO-470 that I bought
to rebuild. $3500 and $4000 respectively. The accessories will be
worth most of the cost!!!.
Linn
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
Message 9
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Hi Andy,
I'm not really sure which "arrow" you're referring to? is it the HSI/DG
page?
I've been using my old 196 for years and it's been super accurate the whole
time (even driving my autopilot).
The other question is why don't you use the map page? If you put in a
"Direct To" to where you're going you just follow the line....no "arrow" to
worry about?!?!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the
90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day VFR
navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow and it
always took me right over the center of the destination airport. (I never
used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was because the database
was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web
sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I use
it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least its
updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all,
enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In other
words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to the right,
but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As I get closer,
this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the airport the 196 does
no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or in the completely wrong
direction. If I pass the airport with the 90, the arrow points to the tail,
tells me to turn around and then guides you directly there, just like it
should. This was an issue flying into Craig, CO a little while ago. I was
unfamiliar with the area, so I trusted and followed the 196, right past town
with the Garmin telling me to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple
thousand feet for a better view, circle around, and find the airport the old
fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing, or
does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or, do I
have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch, or do I
not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
Message 10
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I have no problem with mine so you are either
doing something wrong or there is a problem with that unit.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the
90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day
VFR navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow
and it always took me right over the center of the destination airport.
(I never used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was because
the database was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web
sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I
use it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least
its updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all,
enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In
other words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to
the right, but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As
I get closer, this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the
airport the 196 does no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or
in the completely wrong direction. If I pass the airport with the 90,
the arrow points to the tail, tells me to turn around and then guides
you directly there, just like it should. This was an issue flying into
Craig, CO a little while ago. I was unfamiliar with the area, so I
trusted and followed the 196, right past town with the Garmin telling me
to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple thousand feet for a
better view, circle around, and find the airport the old fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing,
or does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or,
do I have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch,
or do I not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use
a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 help |
You can "follow" the arrow and still be left/right of course. Are the top
middle and bottom of the arrow all aligned? Or is the center section of the
arrow off to the left (for example) -- showing you are right of the direct
course?
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/3/07, SteinAir, Inc. <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> I'm not really sure which "arrow" you're referring to? is it the HSI/DG
> page?
>
> I've been using my old 196 for years and it's been super accurate the
> whole time (even driving my autopilot).
>
> The other question is why don't you use the map page? If you put in a
> "Direct To" to where you're going you just follow the line....no "arrow" to
> worry about?!?!
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of* Andy Gold
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
> *To:* rv-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV-List: Garmin 196 help
>
> I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the
> 90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day VFR
> navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow and it
> always took me right over the center of the destination airport. (I never
> used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was because the database
> was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
>
> So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web
> sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I use
> it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least its
> updated with the new maps and AFDs)
>
> Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all,
> enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
> reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
> from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
> destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In other
> words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to the right,
> but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As I get closer,
> this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the airport the 196 does
> no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or in the completely wrong
> direction. If I pass the airport with the 90, the arrow points to the tail,
> tells me to turn around and then guides you directly there, just like it
> should. This was an issue flying into Craig, CO a little while ago. I was
> unfamiliar with the area, so I trusted and followed the 196, right past town
> with the Garmin telling me to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple
> thousand feet for a better view, circle around, and find the airport the old
> fashioned way.
>
> My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing, or
> does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
> wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or, do I
> have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch, or do I
> not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use a GPS?
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 12
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Andy,
I think you could make the 196 do as you described if you were to use the
cursor to point to a destination on a small scale (zoomed out) map and hit
the goto button. What would be happening is that the 196 would be taking you
to some point that from a long distance looked like the destination, but as
you got closer proved to be some distance away that wasn't obvious at the
small scale. The solution would be to either enter the airport identifier as
the destination or to zoom in to it at a large scale to pick it from the
screen.
Other than that, I don't have any suggestions. I haven't flown much with my
196 recently so I may be missing something.
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the 90.
It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day VFR
navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow and it
always took me right over the center of the destination airport. (I never
used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was because the database
was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web
sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I use
it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least its
updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all,
enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In other
words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to the right,
but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As I get closer,
this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the airport the 196 does
no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or in the completely wrong
direction. If I pass the airport with the 90, the arrow points to the tail,
tells me to turn around and then guides you directly there, just like it
should. This was an issue flying into Craig, CO a little while ago. I was
unfamiliar with the area, so I trusted and followed the 196, right past town
with the Garmin telling me to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple
thousand feet for a better view, circle around, and find the airport the old
fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing, or
does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or, do I
have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch, or do I
not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
Message 13
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The 196 has a Aviation , Land and Water mode. Go into the menu and check out the
"Operating Mode" I suspect yours may not be in the "Aviation Mode".
Reuven Silberman
N7WT RV7A
"J. R. Dial" <jrdial@hal-pc.org> wrote:
Clean Clean DocumentEmail MicrosoftInternetExplorer4
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times
New Roman";}
I have no problem with mine so you are either doing something
wrong or there is a problem with that unit.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the 90.
It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day VFR navigation.
Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow and it always took
me right over the center of the destination airport. (I never used the map page)
The only reason I gave it up was because the database was 5-6 years old
and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web sites,
I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I use it for
I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least its updated with
the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all, enough
that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and reinstall the
relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great from a distance, but
when I get within about 10-15 miles from the destination the arrow starts to
skew over one way or the other. In other words the arrow says that the destination
is 30 degrees over to the right, but I know the airport is straight ahead
over the ridge. As I get closer, this displacement gets worse and worse.
If I pass the airport the 196 does no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight
or in the completely wrong direction. If I pass the airport with the 90,
the arrow points to the tail, tells me to turn around and then guides you directly
there, just like it should. This was an issue flying into Craig, CO a
little while ago. I was unfamiliar with the area, so I trusted and followed the
196, right past town with the Garmin telling me
to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple thousand feet for a better view,
circle around, and find the airport the old fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing, or does
your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from wherever
you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or, do I have a bad
unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch, or do I not know what
I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
- The RV-List Email Forum -
--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
--> http://forums.matronics.com
"No pressure, no diamonds".
~Thomas Carlyle
Message 14
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| Subject: | Langley Fly-in June 23 |
The Langley, BC fly-in will be Saturday, June 23. This is the annual fly-in of
the Western Canada Wing. Langley, BC, is about 20 nm north of Bellingham, WA.
We generally have a good turnout of RVs from all over BC, and a good contingent
from the U.S., too.
Details are on our web page,
http://www.vansairforce.org/CYNJ/
For U.S. visitors, the Home Wing web page has all the information you need on
border crossing procedures. It's really not a big deal, although you do now
need a passport to return to the U.S
http://www.edt.com/homewing/international/
I hope lots of RV-Listers can make it.
---
Tedd McHenry
Van's Air Force
Western Canada Wing
tedd@vansairforce.org
www.vansairforce.org
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 help |
Leave it to me to ID the possible cause. I only know of this from
others
and NOT personal experience. See if it makes a difference if you input
the destination identifier that you put "K" in front of airports. (Does
not
apply if numbers are in airport ID)
Example: LAA is a VOR whereas KLAA is the nearby airport.
Ron Lee
Message 16
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Hi Andy,
Are you using the HSI page? You do have to watch the "to/from" arrow. If
you fly past your destination the TO arrow flips to FROM which is not too
obvious at a glance. A quick look at the "distance to destination" and
you'll see there are only dashes since you are past your destination. I'm
not sure what the other inaccuracy you are seeing is all about. Hope some
of the other suggestions help!
Dave
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 help |
It's showing that I'm left or right of what the direct course would have
been, either because I detoured around terrain or because the RV is just
so much fun to fly that we'll play around a bit on the way to where
we're going.
But that shouldn't matter. At least it didn't with the Garmin 90. I
know this may be heresy to some, but I don't really care where I am
relative to what the straight line course would have been. I only care
where my destination is relative to where I'm at now. I'd like to trust
that when the GPS is locked into an official airport identifier that
that's where its going to point to.
I can always beg forgiveness from the chief pilot (my wife) or the
accountant (my wife) later for burning too much fuel or spending to much
time flying.
Stein says just fly with the map page instead. That may well be what I
have to do, but I'll miss the simplicity of just following the little
arrow.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bowen
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
You can "follow" the arrow and still be left/right of course. Are the
top middle and bottom of the arrow all aligned? Or is the center
section of the arrow off to the left (for example) -- showing you are
right of the direct course?
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/3/07, SteinAir, Inc. <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
Hi Andy,
I'm not really sure which "arrow" you're referring to? is it the
HSI/DG page?
I've been using my old 196 for years and it's been super accurate
the whole time (even driving my autopilot).
The other question is why don't you use the map page? If you put in
a "Direct To" to where you're going you just follow the line....no
"arrow" to worry about?!?!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I
liked the 90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply
for day VFR navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the
arrow and it always took me right over the center of the destination
airport. (I never used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was
because the database was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on
other web sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was.
(for what I use it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better,
but at least its updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at
all, enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In
other words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to
the right, but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As
I get closer, this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the
airport the 196 does no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or
in the completely wrong direction. If I pass the airport with the 90,
the arrow points to the tail, tells me to turn around and then guides
you directly there, just like it should. This was an issue flying into
Craig, CO a little while ago. I was unfamiliar with the area, so I
trusted and followed the 196, right past town with the Garmin telling me
to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple thousand feet for a
better view, circle around, and find the airport the old fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same
thing, or does your heading indicator trustfully point to your
destination from wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose
is pointed? Or, do I have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program
out this glitch, or do I not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's
book on how to use a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
Message 18
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Hi Andy,
Just hit "goto" "enter" and the arrow will be well behaved again. for a
while, if you behave.
Dave
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
It's showing that I'm left or right of what the direct course would have
been, either because I detoured around terrain or because the RV is just so
much fun to fly that we'll play around a bit on the way to where we're
going.
But that shouldn't matter. At least it didn't with the Garmin 90. I know
this may be heresy to some, but I don't really care where I am relative to
what the straight line course would have been. I only care where my
destination is relative to where I'm at now. I'd like to trust that when
the GPS is locked into an official airport identifier that that's where its
going to point to.
I can always beg forgiveness from the chief pilot (my wife) or the
accountant (my wife) later for burning too much fuel or spending to much
time flying.
Stein says just fly with the map page instead. That may well be what I have
to do, but I'll miss the simplicity of just following the little arrow.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bowen <mailto:Larry@bowenaero.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
You can "follow" the arrow and still be left/right of course. Are the top
middle and bottom of the arrow all aligned? Or is the center section of the
arrow off to the left (for example) -- showing you are right of the direct
course?
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/3/07, SteinAir, Inc. <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
Hi Andy,
I'm not really sure which "arrow" you're referring to? is it the HSI/DG
page?
I've been using my old 196 for years and it's been super accurate the whole
time (even driving my autopilot).
The other question is why don't you use the map page? If you put in a
"Direct To" to where you're going you just follow the line....no "arrow" to
worry about?!?!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked the 90.
It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for day VFR
navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the arrow and it
always took me right over the center of the destination airport. (I never
used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was because the database
was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other web
sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what I use
it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least its
updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at all,
enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In other
words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to the right,
but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As I get closer,
this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the airport the 196 does
no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or in the completely wrong
direction. If I pass the airport with the 90, the arrow points to the tail,
tells me to turn around and then guides you directly there, just like it
should. This was an issue flying into Craig, CO a little while ago. I was
unfamiliar with the area, so I trusted and followed the 196, right past town
with the Garmin telling me to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple
thousand feet for a better view, circle around, and find the airport the old
fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing, or
does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or, do I
have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch, or do I
not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com"> <http://forums.matronics.com>
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 help |
Andy, That was the one thing I missed when going from the 90 to the 196
and then 296... The arrow does not function the same. I always liked
doing an NDB approach with the 90. You'll get used to not having it and
enjoy the 196 before long. Mike
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Gold
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
It's showing that I'm left or right of what the direct course would
have been, either because I detoured around terrain or because the RV is
just so much fun to fly that we'll play around a bit on the way to where
we're going.
But that shouldn't matter. At least it didn't with the Garmin 90. I
know this may be heresy to some, but I don't really care where I am
relative to what the straight line course would have been. I only care
where my destination is relative to where I'm at now. I'd like to trust
that when the GPS is locked into an official airport identifier that
that's where its going to point to.
I can always beg forgiveness from the chief pilot (my wife) or the
accountant (my wife) later for burning too much fuel or spending to much
time flying.
Stein says just fly with the map page instead. That may well be what
I have to do, but I'll miss the simplicity of just following the little
arrow.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Bowen
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
You can "follow" the arrow and still be left/right of course. Are
the top middle and bottom of the arrow all aligned? Or is the center
section of the arrow off to the left (for example) -- showing you are
right of the direct course?
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
On 6/3/07, SteinAir, Inc. <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
Hi Andy,
I'm not really sure which "arrow" you're referring to? is it the
HSI/DG page?
I've been using my old 196 for years and it's been super accurate
the whole time (even driving my autopilot).
The other question is why don't you use the map page? If you put
in a "Direct To" to where you're going you just follow the line....no
"arrow" to worry about?!?!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy Gold
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 2:31 PM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I
liked the 90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply
for day VFR navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the
arrow and it always took me right over the center of the destination
airport. (I never used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was
because the database was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on
other web sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was.
(for what I use it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better,
but at least its updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like
at all, enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out
and reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works
great from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In
other words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to
the right, but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As
I get closer, this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the
airport the 196 does no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or
in the completely wrong direction. If I pass the airport with the 90,
the arrow points to the tail, tells me to turn around and then guides
you directly there, just like it should. This was an issue flying into
Craig, CO a little while ago. I was unfamiliar with the area, so I
trusted and followed the 196, right past town with the Garmin telling me
to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple thousand feet for a
better view, circle around, and find the airport the old fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same
thing, or does your heading indicator trustfully point to your
destination from wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose
is pointed? Or, do I have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program
out this glitch, or do I not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's
book on how to use a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
6/3/2007 12:47 PM
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Cowl hot spots |
Here's a pic of how I did my -8 and it worked perfectly...
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Pictures/Dscn0341x.jpg
Randy Lervold
----- Original Message -----
From: Vince-Himsl
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: RV-List: Cowl hot spots
I am applying the aluminum stick on foil to my lower cowl and would
appreciate builder experience with heat induced hot spots.
That is, were should I put the stuff?
So far, I have covered the aft 2/3 of the lower cowl with nothing on
the upper cowl (RV8).
Thanks!
Vince H.
RV8 - VSB . Finish (getting close)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 help |
Do you have it set to "Track up"?
Randy Lervold
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Gold
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: RV-List: Garmin 196 help
I just installed a Garmin 196 in place of my old Garmin 90. I liked
the 90. It did everything I wanted it to do perfectly and simply for
day VFR navigation. Just enter where you want to go and follow the
arrow and it always took me right over the center of the destination
airport. (I never used the map page) The only reason I gave it up was
because the database was 5-6 years old and I couldn't get an update.
So, I bought a 196. With all the raving about it here and on other
web sites, I looked forward to seeing how great it really was. (for what
I use it for I couldn't imagine how it could be any better, but at least
its updated with the new maps and AFDs)
Bottom line is the 196 has a really bad quirk that I don't like at
all, enough that if I can't find a solution I'm going to pull it out and
reinstall the relic 90. Following the arrow to a destination works great
from a distance, but when I get within about 10-15 miles from the
destination the arrow starts to skew over one way or the other. In
other words the arrow says that the destination is 30 degrees over to
the right, but I know the airport is straight ahead over the ridge. As
I get closer, this displacement gets worse and worse. If I pass the
airport the 196 does no correct. It keeps telling me to go straight or
in the completely wrong direction. If I pass the airport with the 90,
the arrow points to the tail, tells me to turn around and then guides
you directly there, just like it should. This was an issue flying into
Craig, CO a little while ago. I was unfamiliar with the area, so I
trusted and followed the 196, right past town with the Garmin telling me
to keep flying straight. I had to climb a couple thousand feet for a
better view, circle around, and find the airport the old fashioned way.
My question is for others flying a 196. Does yours do the same thing,
or does your heading indicator trustfully point to your destination from
wherever you are and from whatever direction your nose is pointed? Or,
do I have a bad unit? Or do I need to somehow program out this glitch,
or do I not know what I'm doing and need some dummy's book on how to use
a GPS?
Thanks,
Andy
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 196 help |
Actually my initial guess may not be correct. If you use the map
function is helps
provide situational awareness and may clue you in to what is wrong. I
doubt that
the GPS unit is bad.
Ron Lee
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