Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:34 AM - Re: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts (Jim Jewell)
2. 06:02 AM - Re: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts (linn Walters)
3. 07:17 AM - Oshkosh - AirVenture ride (Dale Walter)
4. 07:22 AM - RV on floats (Tim Bryan)
5. 08:18 AM - Re: RV on floats (Greg Young)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: RV on floats (Tim Bryan)
7. 08:35 AM - Re: Connections for AvMap EPK-1V (Trevor)
8. 08:42 AM - Re: Oshkosh - AirVenture ride (LessDragProd@aol.com)
9. 09:04 AM - nutplate (Wheeler North)
10. 10:48 AM - Safety wire on Hartzell (Kevin Horton)
11. 11:26 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Michael W Stewart)
12. 11:26 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (William Gill)
13. 11:31 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Richard Dudley)
14. 11:33 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Doug Weiler)
15. 11:39 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Tim Bryan)
16. 11:40 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Mike Robertson)
17. 01:11 PM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Kevin Horton)
18. 01:18 PM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Tim Bryan)
19. 01:37 PM - Re: Last call for the RV OSH BBQ (Bob Collins)
20. 02:09 PM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Dale Ensing)
21. 10:31 PM - Re: RV on floats (Todd Bartrim)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts |
Hi Dean,
I am not an engineer so I will avoid the comparative structural strengths of
nutplates verses Nylok fasteners etc.
My oil cooler is mounted in the position that you intend to use. I used
floating nutplates similar in strength to what you describe.
Based on others descriptions of successes and failures you should consider
adding some strength to the baffles in the area around the oil cooler
mounting position.
I have seen pieces of aluminium angle being used as braces running from one
of the engine case half bolts back to the oil cooler to add stiffness to
that corner of the baffles.
I chose to add doublers to the baffle parts in that general area. They show
up in the first attached photo.
I used all six bolts for the added strength to hold the oil cooler in place.
I have low hours on my 6-A to date but I doubt that the nutplates will be a
failure point in the foreseeable future. I will be watching for cracks in
the baffles but I don't expect to see any very soon.
Since the attached pictures where taken I added a filler piece to the top of
the baffles so that the baffle seal material runs straight across the top of
the rear baffle with out the usual joggle just above the oil cooler, (much
neater and easier). This addition also added a little more rigidity to the
area.
I will wait to see one of the engineer types supply the strength data you
request.
Keep building, it's not far now,
Jim in Kelowna, RV6-A C-GIIG 30 hr. since first flight
----- Original Message -----
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:43 PM
Subject: RV-List: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts
> <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>
> I was assembling my baffles for final installation today. I am mounting
> the
> oil cooler on the pilot's side aft baffle and thought I'd be real smart
> and
> use nutplates riveted to the baffle material instead of metal or nylok
> stopnuts at the other ends of the bolts that hold the cooler on. But
> looking at the nutplates as I was installing them it hit me that there is
> no
> where near the amount of metal surrounding the threads of the bolt with a
> nutplate that there is with a standard nut.
>
> Since the engine does a lot of shaking and a cooler full of oil is not
> exactly light in weight, was the nutplate idea a bad idea (I wanted to
> have
> that many less nuts and washers in the assembly and liked the idea of just
> having to install the bolts). Any mechanical engineers out there savvy
> with
> the strength differences of the two fasteners and what do you think?
> Never
> heard anyone bring this up on the list before so I'm probably being my
> usual
> paranoid self, but thought I'd ask anyway. On a side note, did some
> transition training with Mike Seager in Portland last week and had a ball.
> Mike's a great (and patient) mentor and I really enjoyed it (even if I did
> have a heck of a time getting used to taxiing and steering with the brakes
> and getting the landing flare just right). Thanks.
>
> Dean Psiropoulos
> VR-6A N197DM
> Inspection around the corner.
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts |
I'm no structural engineer, but I think the nutplates would be as strong
as a nut provided the amount of threads are there. The nut/nutplate is
in tension, with all the tension in the threads. Wouldn't make any
difference if the nut were as big around as a soda can, the same amount
of tension would strip out the same number of threads made of the same
material. Having said that, my experience is that nutplates are made of
stronger steel than the standard AN nuts we're using. Also, remember
that a nylok nut MAY have fewer metal threads than a standard nut!
Firm, strong mounting is a necessity ..... not only do you have the
weight of the oil cooler filled with oil, you also have some rather
large hoses attached.
Linn
do not archive
DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>I was assembling my baffles for final installation today. I am mounting the
>oil cooler on the pilot's side aft baffle and thought I'd be real smart and
>use nutplates riveted to the baffle material instead of metal or nylok
>stopnuts at the other ends of the bolts that hold the cooler on.
>
snip
>
>Dean Psiropoulos
>VR-6A N197DM
>Inspection around the corner.
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Oshkosh - AirVenture ride |
I have an RV6a with an available seat to Oshkosh for someone to share
expenses. Previous experience includes one trip to Oshkosh and 7 coast to
coast. Based at KHWO, Ft Lauderdale FL. Also may contact me off list at
dale1rv6 at Comcast.net or 954-651-3000. References available and you should
check before flying IMHO. Former CFII and current IFR ATP, always willing to
wait for good weather.
Dale
RV6a 875 hours
Do not archive
Message 4
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I live in East Texas and am beginning to think I should have put my RV-6 on
floats so I can take it to the store. Don't really need to fly it, just
need a way to get around. This rain is getting a bit ridiculous. I moved
here for warmer weather, but wondering if I should have picked somewhere
else. Is anyone else in East Texas?
The upside is I am using the time to finally put my wheel pants on and prime
my cowl. Now if I could just find all the parts I moved here for the wheel
pants.
Do Not Archive this!
Tim
Message 5
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If you put it on floats, bring it down to the water runway at Hooks. We
can
still differentiate between it and the paved runways... today anyway.
Regards,
Greg Young
I live in East Texas and am beginning to think I should have put my RV-6
on
floats so I can take it to the store. Don=92t really need to fly it,
just
need a way to get around. This rain is getting a bit ridiculous. I
moved
here for warmer weather, but wondering if I should have picked somewhere
else. Is anyone else in East Texas?
The upside is I am using the time to finally put my wheel pants on and
prime
my cowl. Now if I could just find all the parts I moved here for the
wheel
pants.
Do Not Archive this!
Tim
12:19 PM
Message 6
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Hey Greg,
They keep telling me this isn't typical. You are north of me and have been
getting a bunch also. I am about 25 south of Tyler.
Take care
Tim
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Young
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV on floats
If you put it on floats, bring it down to the water runway at Hooks. We can
still differentiate between it and the paved runways... today anyway.
Regards,
Greg Young
I live in East Texas and am beginning to think I should have put my RV-6 on
floats so I can take it to the store. Don't really need to fly it, just
need a way to get around. This rain is getting a bit ridiculous. I moved
here for warmer weather, but wondering if I should have picked somewhere
else. Is anyone else in East Texas?
The upside is I am using the time to finally put my wheel pants on and prime
my cowl. Now if I could just find all the parts I moved here for the wheel
pants.
Do Not Archive this!
Tim
12:19 PM
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Connections for AvMap EPK-1V |
Has anyone had any experience in connecting the AvMap GPS to the power
supply? I am baffled by the lead which plugs into the lighter socket.
There are 3 wires, a red (12V+), a black (earth) and a white???
Obviously when the adaptor is plugged into the cigarette socket it
receives 12V and the prongs on the side carry the earth. Without
destroying the adapter to see where the white connects to, I can't see
the purpose of this wire, yet there are 3 pins on the GPS. Any ideas?
Thanks
Trevor Davis (RV-7)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oshkosh - AirVenture ride |
Oops. Wrong coast.
Jim
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 9
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Hmmm,
A nutplate in shear should be just as strong as any other fastener in shear
as it is the bolt that is being sheared.
The difference between a nutplate and a nut in tension can't be much since
the weakest link is the thread roots themselves. So as long as the base
metal of what the nutplate is attached to is properly substantial I would
argue that were one to do pull tests on bolts with nutplates vs nuts they
would get fairly similar results.
They do make floating nutplates that are even more substantial then a
standard one though.
The .125" buildup for the area around the oil cooler mount is sage wisdom
and it should include some of the baffle hard points to the engine.
The spacers between the oil cooler flanges can be made out of aluminum vs
steel tube, but in either case use large area washers on the flange mounting
slots that aren't against the baffle. Grind a side flat if they stick into
the cooler airflow.
Also, don't forget to boelube those nutplates.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Safety wire on Hartzell |
I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
something that is not a problem?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Safety wire on Hartzell |
"Or, am I worrying about
something that is not a problem?"
Yes. Its that. Since the wire never moves, it cant wear and get into th
e
hub.
The practice of safety wiring as you described has been done for eons.
Best,
Mike
Kevin Horton
<khorton01@rogers
.com>
To
Sent by: rv-list@matronics.com
owner-rv-list-ser
cc
ver@matronics.com
Subj
ect
RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
07/02/2007 01:46
PM
Please respond to
rv-list@matronics
.com
I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
something that is not a problem?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
========================
============
========================
============
========================
============
Message 12
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| Subject: | Safety wire on Hartzell |
Kevin,
That's the way it's done and I have never observed any wear from such.
Its tricky safety wiring these bolts...I had to loosen a couple to get
the safety wire routed through the bolt hole and then re-torque followed
by safety wiring the bolt(s).
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
something that is not a problem?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Safety wire on Hartzell |
Hi Kevin,
Attached is a figure copied out of AC 43.13-1B. The pair in the lower
left looks like your description of the propeller bolts. Doe that help
any?
Regards,
Richard Dudley
Kevin Horton wrote:
>
> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
> bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
> will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
> bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
> wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
> protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
> second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
> something that is not a problem?
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Safety wire on Hartzell |
HI Kevin:
Maybe some will differ, but I have never seen this as a problem. I pulled
the prop of my first RV-4 after 600 hours of use and there was so wear at
all. Safetying the c/s prop is a time consuming affair since it is rather
close quarters, but patience will prevail.
Doug Weiler
RV-4, N722DW, 400 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01@rogers.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
>
> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of bolts,
> with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire will run
> over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop bolts. That
> doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety wire could wear
> on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of protection over the
> twisted safety wire before I slip it into the second bolt? If so, what
> should I use? Or, am I worrying about something that is not a problem?
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Safety wire on Hartzell |
Interestingly my DAR told me those holes were not for safety wire and it was
not needed. I did not do it at his urging but always feel it should be
done. It was never a problem on my previous airplane with the same prop to
just do it the way you described and no protection on the wire is needed.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
>
>
> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
> bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
> will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
> bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
> wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
> protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
> second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
> something that is not a problem?
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Safety wire on Hartzell |
Kevin,
I use a small piece of vinayl (sp?) tubing over the wire to protect the hub
from being scratched.
Mike Robertson
> To: rv-list@matronics.com> From: khorton01@rogers.com> Subject: RV-List:
Safety wire on Hartzell> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:46:19 -0400> > --> RV-Lis
t message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>> > I started to pu
t safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK > prop to the crank,
and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of > bolts, with the wire orien
ted to tighten both bolts, the safety wire > will run over the edge of the
hub where it protrudes between the prop > bolts. That doesn't seem like a g
ood situation, as the steel safety > wire could wear on the aluminum hub. W
hat to do? Put some sort of > protection over the twisted safety wire befor
e I slip it into the > second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worr
ying about > something that is not a problem?> > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishi
====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out the
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Safety wire on Hartzell |
Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll press on.
Tim - DARs are not always right. My Hartzell manual specifically
says to safety wire the prop bolts, and there is a figure with an
arrow pointing at the holes in those roll pins at the place to put
safety wire.
Kevin
On 2 Jul 2007, at 14:35, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> Interestingly my DAR told me those holes were not for safety wire
> and it was
> not needed. I did not do it at his urging but always feel it
> should be
> done. It was never a problem on my previous airplane with the same
> prop to
> just do it the way you described and no protection on the wire is
> needed.
>
> Tim
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
>> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
>>
>>
>> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
>> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
>> bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
>> will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
>> bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
>> wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
>> protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
>> second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
>> something that is not a problem?
>>
>> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>> Ottawa, Canada
>> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>>
>>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Safety wire on Hartzell |
I hadn't see that, but Agree completely
Tim
Do Not Archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:10 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
>
>
> Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll press on.
>
> Tim - DARs are not always right. My Hartzell manual specifically
> says to safety wire the prop bolts, and there is a figure with an
> arrow pointing at the holes in those roll pins at the place to put
> safety wire.
>
> Kevin
>
> On 2 Jul 2007, at 14:35, Tim Bryan wrote:
>
> >
> > Interestingly my DAR told me those holes were not for safety wire
> > and it was
> > not needed. I did not do it at his urging but always feel it
> > should be
> > done. It was never a problem on my previous airplane with the same
> > prop to
> > just do it the way you described and no protection on the wire is
> > needed.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
> >> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM
> >> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell
> >>
> >>
> >> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK
> >> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of
> >> bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire
> >> will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop
> >> bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety
> >> wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of
> >> protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the
> >> second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about
> >> something that is not a problem?
> >>
> >> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> >> Ottawa, Canada
> >> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Last call for the RV OSH BBQ |
Apologies because this is going to be posted on various message boards to make
sure we hit everyone, but I've put together a 'flow chart' of the chow line at
the Oshkosh RV BBQ. It has the volunteer "assignments" for those I'm aware of
that have volunteered.
You can find it here:
http://tinyurl.com/26gvb8
Please check it out and tell me if it makes sense.
We'll probably start cooking around 5 so that there's food ready when people arrive
at 6 (and beyond). In the past, we've cooked for several hours. So it would
be great if you'd let me know how long you wish your "shift" to last.
I would discourage folks from volunteering for more than an hour because it's easy
not to see everyone when you're cooking and running around. So let me know
which shift (6-7. 7-8, 8-9) works best for you.
I've also listed some volunteer "opportunities" we're still trying to fill.
SALADS: We need folks who can bring a salad. You know, a bunch of lettuce in a
big bowl and jar of dressing. We have a few who have volunteered but it would
be bad form for us to have only a few dozen servings. So if you've got a big Tupperware
bowl, wouldn't mind filling it and taking it home with you -- empty
and greasy -- when done, drop me an email. (bcollinsrv7a (at)comcast.net)
Do not archive
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121846#121846
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Safety wire on Hartzell |
And done with .040 SS safety wire.
. My Hartzell manual specifically
> says to safety wire the prop bolts, and there is a figure with an
> arrow pointing at the holes in those roll pins at the place to put
> safety wire.
>
> Kevin
>
>>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: RV on floats |
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