---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/02/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:34 AM - Re: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts (Jim Jewell) 2. 06:02 AM - Re: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts (linn Walters) 3. 07:17 AM - Oshkosh - AirVenture ride (Dale Walter) 4. 07:22 AM - RV on floats (Tim Bryan) 5. 08:18 AM - Re: RV on floats (Greg Young) 6. 08:29 AM - Re: RV on floats (Tim Bryan) 7. 08:35 AM - Re: Connections for AvMap EPK-1V (Trevor) 8. 08:42 AM - Re: Oshkosh - AirVenture ride (LessDragProd@aol.com) 9. 09:04 AM - nutplate (Wheeler North) 10. 10:48 AM - Safety wire on Hartzell (Kevin Horton) 11. 11:26 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Michael W Stewart) 12. 11:26 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (William Gill) 13. 11:31 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Richard Dudley) 14. 11:33 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Doug Weiler) 15. 11:39 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Tim Bryan) 16. 11:40 AM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Mike Robertson) 17. 01:11 PM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Kevin Horton) 18. 01:18 PM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Tim Bryan) 19. 01:37 PM - Re: Last call for the RV OSH BBQ (Bob Collins) 20. 02:09 PM - Re: Safety wire on Hartzell (Dale Ensing) 21. 10:31 PM - Re: RV on floats (Todd Bartrim) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:22 AM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts Hi Dean, I am not an engineer so I will avoid the comparative structural strengths of nutplates verses Nylok fasteners etc. My oil cooler is mounted in the position that you intend to use. I used floating nutplates similar in strength to what you describe. Based on others descriptions of successes and failures you should consider adding some strength to the baffles in the area around the oil cooler mounting position. I have seen pieces of aluminium angle being used as braces running from one of the engine case half bolts back to the oil cooler to add stiffness to that corner of the baffles. I chose to add doublers to the baffle parts in that general area. They show up in the first attached photo. I used all six bolts for the added strength to hold the oil cooler in place. I have low hours on my 6-A to date but I doubt that the nutplates will be a failure point in the foreseeable future. I will be watching for cracks in the baffles but I don't expect to see any very soon. Since the attached pictures where taken I added a filler piece to the top of the baffles so that the baffle seal material runs straight across the top of the rear baffle with out the usual joggle just above the oil cooler, (much neater and easier). This addition also added a little more rigidity to the area. I will wait to see one of the engineer types supply the strength data you request. Keep building, it's not far now, Jim in Kelowna, RV6-A C-GIIG 30 hr. since first flight ----- Original Message ----- From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 10:43 PM Subject: RV-List: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts > > > I was assembling my baffles for final installation today. I am mounting > the > oil cooler on the pilot's side aft baffle and thought I'd be real smart > and > use nutplates riveted to the baffle material instead of metal or nylok > stopnuts at the other ends of the bolts that hold the cooler on. But > looking at the nutplates as I was installing them it hit me that there is > no > where near the amount of metal surrounding the threads of the bolt with a > nutplate that there is with a standard nut. > > Since the engine does a lot of shaking and a cooler full of oil is not > exactly light in weight, was the nutplate idea a bad idea (I wanted to > have > that many less nuts and washers in the assembly and liked the idea of just > having to install the bolts). Any mechanical engineers out there savvy > with > the strength differences of the two fasteners and what do you think? > Never > heard anyone bring this up on the list before so I'm probably being my > usual > paranoid self, but thought I'd ask anyway. On a side note, did some > transition training with Mike Seager in Portland last week and had a ball. > Mike's a great (and patient) mentor and I really enjoyed it (even if I did > have a heck of a time getting used to taxiing and steering with the brakes > and getting the landing flare just right). Thanks. > > Dean Psiropoulos > VR-6A N197DM > Inspection around the corner. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:53 AM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Nutplates vs Stop Nuts I'm no structural engineer, but I think the nutplates would be as strong as a nut provided the amount of threads are there. The nut/nutplate is in tension, with all the tension in the threads. Wouldn't make any difference if the nut were as big around as a soda can, the same amount of tension would strip out the same number of threads made of the same material. Having said that, my experience is that nutplates are made of stronger steel than the standard AN nuts we're using. Also, remember that a nylok nut MAY have fewer metal threads than a standard nut! Firm, strong mounting is a necessity ..... not only do you have the weight of the oil cooler filled with oil, you also have some rather large hoses attached. Linn do not archive DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > >I was assembling my baffles for final installation today. I am mounting the >oil cooler on the pilot's side aft baffle and thought I'd be real smart and >use nutplates riveted to the baffle material instead of metal or nylok >stopnuts at the other ends of the bolts that hold the cooler on. > snip > >Dean Psiropoulos >VR-6A N197DM >Inspection around the corner. > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:48 AM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RV-List: Oshkosh - AirVenture ride I have an RV6a with an available seat to Oshkosh for someone to share expenses. Previous experience includes one trip to Oshkosh and 7 coast to coast. Based at KHWO, Ft Lauderdale FL. Also may contact me off list at dale1rv6 at Comcast.net or 954-651-3000. References available and you should check before flying IMHO. Former CFII and current IFR ATP, always willing to wait for good weather. Dale RV6a 875 hours Do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:38 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RV-List: RV on floats I live in East Texas and am beginning to think I should have put my RV-6 on floats so I can take it to the store. Don't really need to fly it, just need a way to get around. This rain is getting a bit ridiculous. I moved here for warmer weather, but wondering if I should have picked somewhere else. Is anyone else in East Texas? The upside is I am using the time to finally put my wheel pants on and prime my cowl. Now if I could just find all the parts I moved here for the wheel pants. Do Not Archive this! Tim ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:27 AM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV on floats If you put it on floats, bring it down to the water runway at Hooks. We can still differentiate between it and the paved runways... today anyway. Regards, Greg Young I live in East Texas and am beginning to think I should have put my RV-6 on floats so I can take it to the store. Don=92t really need to fly it, just need a way to get around. This rain is getting a bit ridiculous. I moved here for warmer weather, but wondering if I should have picked somewhere else. Is anyone else in East Texas? The upside is I am using the time to finally put my wheel pants on and prime my cowl. Now if I could just find all the parts I moved here for the wheel pants. Do Not Archive this! Tim 12:19 PM ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:16 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV on floats Hey Greg, They keep telling me this isn't typical. You are north of me and have been getting a bunch also. I am about 25 south of Tyler. Take care Tim _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Young Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 10:18 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: RV on floats If you put it on floats, bring it down to the water runway at Hooks. We can still differentiate between it and the paved runways... today anyway. Regards, Greg Young I live in East Texas and am beginning to think I should have put my RV-6 on floats so I can take it to the store. Don't really need to fly it, just need a way to get around. This rain is getting a bit ridiculous. I moved here for warmer weather, but wondering if I should have picked somewhere else. Is anyone else in East Texas? The upside is I am using the time to finally put my wheel pants on and prime my cowl. Now if I could just find all the parts I moved here for the wheel pants. Do Not Archive this! Tim 12:19 PM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:45 AM PST US From: "Trevor" Subject: Re: RV-List: Connections for AvMap EPK-1V Has anyone had any experience in connecting the AvMap GPS to the power supply? I am baffled by the lead which plugs into the lighter socket. There are 3 wires, a red (12V+), a black (earth) and a white??? Obviously when the adaptor is plugged into the cigarette socket it receives 12V and the prongs on the side carry the earth. Without destroying the adapter to see where the white connects to, I can't see the purpose of this wire, yet there are 3 pins on the GPS. Any ideas? Thanks Trevor Davis (RV-7) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:33 AM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Oshkosh - AirVenture ride Oops. Wrong coast. Jim ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:06 AM PST US From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: nutplate Hmmm, A nutplate in shear should be just as strong as any other fastener in shear as it is the bolt that is being sheared. The difference between a nutplate and a nut in tension can't be much since the weakest link is the thread roots themselves. So as long as the base metal of what the nutplate is attached to is properly substantial I would argue that were one to do pull tests on bolts with nutplates vs nuts they would get fairly similar results. They do make floating nutplates that are even more substantial then a standard one though. The .125" buildup for the area around the oil cooler mount is sage wisdom and it should include some of the baffle hard points to the engine. The spacers between the oil cooler flanges can be made out of aluminum vs steel tube, but in either case use large area washers on the flange mounting slots that aren't against the baffle. Grind a side flat if they stick into the cooler airflow. Also, don't forget to boelube those nutplates. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:26 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about something that is not a problem? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell From: Michael W Stewart "Or, am I worrying about something that is not a problem?" Yes. Its that. Since the wire never moves, it cant wear and get into th e hub. The practice of safety wiring as you described has been done for eons. Best, Mike Kevin Horton To Sent by: rv-list@matronics.com owner-rv-list-ser cc ver@matronics.com Subj ect RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell 07/02/2007 01:46 PM Please respond to rv-list@matronics .com I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about something that is not a problem? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:53 AM PST US From: "William Gill" Subject: RE: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell Kevin, That's the way it's done and I have never observed any wear from such. Its tricky safety wiring these bolts...I had to loosen a couple to get the safety wire routed through the bolt hole and then re-torque followed by safety wiring the bolt(s). Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about something that is not a problem? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:18 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell Hi Kevin, Attached is a figure copied out of AC 43.13-1B. The pair in the lower left looks like your description of the propeller bolts. Doe that help any? Regards, Richard Dudley Kevin Horton wrote: > > I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK > prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of > bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire > will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop > bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety > wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of > protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the > second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about > something that is not a problem? > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:41 AM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell HI Kevin: Maybe some will differ, but I have never seen this as a problem. I pulled the prop of my first RV-4 after 600 hours of use and there was so wear at all. Safetying the c/s prop is a time consuming affair since it is rather close quarters, but patience will prevail. Doug Weiler RV-4, N722DW, 400 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell > > I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK > prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of bolts, > with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire will run > over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop bolts. That > doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety wire could wear > on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of protection over the > twisted safety wire before I slip it into the second bolt? If so, what > should I use? Or, am I worrying about something that is not a problem? > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:13 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell Interestingly my DAR told me those holes were not for safety wire and it was not needed. I did not do it at his urging but always feel it should be done. It was never a problem on my previous airplane with the same prop to just do it the way you described and no protection on the wire is needed. Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell > > > I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK > prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of > bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire > will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop > bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety > wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of > protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the > second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about > something that is not a problem? > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:04 AM PST US From: Mike Robertson Subject: RE: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell Kevin, I use a small piece of vinayl (sp?) tubing over the wire to protect the hub from being scratched. Mike Robertson > To: rv-list@matronics.com> From: khorton01@rogers.com> Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:46:19 -0400> > --> RV-Lis t message posted by: Kevin Horton > > I started to pu t safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK > prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of > bolts, with the wire orien ted to tighten both bolts, the safety wire > will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop > bolts. That doesn't seem like a g ood situation, as the steel safety > wire could wear on the aluminum hub. W hat to do? Put some sort of > protection over the twisted safety wire befor e I slip it into the > second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worr ying about > something that is not a problem?> > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishi ====> > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out the New MSN Mobile! http://mobile.msn.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:35 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll press on. Tim - DARs are not always right. My Hartzell manual specifically says to safety wire the prop bolts, and there is a figure with an arrow pointing at the holes in those roll pins at the place to put safety wire. Kevin On 2 Jul 2007, at 14:35, Tim Bryan wrote: > > Interestingly my DAR told me those holes were not for safety wire > and it was > not needed. I did not do it at his urging but always feel it > should be > done. It was never a problem on my previous airplane with the same > prop to > just do it the way you described and no protection on the wire is > needed. > > Tim > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton >> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell >> >> >> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK >> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of >> bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire >> will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop >> bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety >> wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of >> protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the >> second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about >> something that is not a problem? >> >> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >> Ottawa, Canada >> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 >> >> ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:29 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell I hadn't see that, but Agree completely Tim Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:10 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell > > > Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll press on. > > Tim - DARs are not always right. My Hartzell manual specifically > says to safety wire the prop bolts, and there is a figure with an > arrow pointing at the holes in those roll pins at the place to put > safety wire. > > Kevin > > On 2 Jul 2007, at 14:35, Tim Bryan wrote: > > > > > Interestingly my DAR told me those holes were not for safety wire > > and it was > > not needed. I did not do it at his urging but always feel it > > should be > > done. It was never a problem on my previous airplane with the same > > prop to > > just do it the way you described and no protection on the wire is > > needed. > > > > Tim > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > >> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton > >> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 12:46 PM > >> To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell > >> > >> > >> I started to put safety wire on the bolts attaching my Hartzell HC2YK > >> prop to the crank, and I've got a question. If I safety pairs of > >> bolts, with the wire oriented to tighten both bolts, the safety wire > >> will run over the edge of the hub where it protrudes between the prop > >> bolts. That doesn't seem like a good situation, as the steel safety > >> wire could wear on the aluminum hub. What to do? Put some sort of > >> protection over the twisted safety wire before I slip it into the > >> second bolt? If so, what should I use? Or, am I worrying about > >> something that is not a problem? > >> > >> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > >> Ottawa, Canada > >> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > >> > >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:26 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Last call for the RV OSH BBQ From: "Bob Collins" Apologies because this is going to be posted on various message boards to make sure we hit everyone, but I've put together a 'flow chart' of the chow line at the Oshkosh RV BBQ. It has the volunteer "assignments" for those I'm aware of that have volunteered. You can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/26gvb8 Please check it out and tell me if it makes sense. We'll probably start cooking around 5 so that there's food ready when people arrive at 6 (and beyond). In the past, we've cooked for several hours. So it would be great if you'd let me know how long you wish your "shift" to last. I would discourage folks from volunteering for more than an hour because it's easy not to see everyone when you're cooking and running around. So let me know which shift (6-7. 7-8, 8-9) works best for you. I've also listed some volunteer "opportunities" we're still trying to fill. SALADS: We need folks who can bring a salad. You know, a bunch of lettuce in a big bowl and jar of dressing. We have a few who have volunteered but it would be bad form for us to have only a few dozen servings. So if you've got a big Tupperware bowl, wouldn't mind filling it and taking it home with you -- empty and greasy -- when done, drop me an email. (bcollinsrv7a (at)comcast.net) Do not archive -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=121846#121846 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:13 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety wire on Hartzell And done with .040 SS safety wire. . My Hartzell manual specifically > says to safety wire the prop bolts, and there is a figure with an > arrow pointing at the holes in those roll pins at the place to put > safety wire. > > Kevin > >> ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:07 PM PST US From: Todd Bartrim Subject: Re: RV-List: RV on floats --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. 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