Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson)
2. 09:09 AM - RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen)
3. 09:39 AM - Re: band saw (Brian Meyette)
4. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Jeff Orear)
5. 10:29 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Terry Watson)
6. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Chuck Jensen)
7. 11:00 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Scott Farner)
8. 11:00 AM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
9. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Terry Watson)
10. 12:16 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen)
11. 12:18 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen)
12. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
13. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson)
14. 12:58 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
15. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Tim Bryan)
16. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Kevin Horton)
17. 01:41 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ted French)
18. 01:51 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
19. 01:56 PM - : EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (James H Nelson)
20. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Terry Watson)
21. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson)
22. 02:47 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
23. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Brian Meyette)
24. 02:55 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
25. 03:45 PM - Great Show (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty)
26. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Scott)
27. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (william hilling)
28. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Kyle Boatright)
29. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Dale Ensing)
30. 08:37 PM - Looking for Flamer... (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
31. 09:29 PM - Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 (sarg314)
32. 10:23 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Jim Jewell)
33. 10:43 PM - Re: Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 (Ed)
34. 10:47 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Here's my take...
EAA's annual fee is reasonable. I just wish the magazine spent more
time on EXPERIMENTAL airplanes and less on, well, everything else --
including all the self-promoting they do. I REALLY get tired of the
self-promoting.
AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the
cost is of all those porta-potties.
AirVenture would be a lot better with some small changes. For one,
more places to wash your hands! With soap. The maps should show the
routes all the trams and busses take, maybe even with time to travel
so you can decide if the tram is better than walking.
The air show at AirVenture -- war birds and Extras, Extras and war
birds. Where are the experimentals? And Mr. Announcer... SHUT UP.
Could you be any more insipid? Also the staged "fake" performances
are lame.
The workshops at AirVenture rock!
And I love the great access to all the vendors. 20 minute
conversation with one of the guys from P-Mag, for instance.
-J
Message 2
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| Subject: | RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
I have my upper cowl pretty much trimmed the way that I want it and am looking
to start working on the lower cowl half.
I have been contemplating doing this installation with the nose gear leg removed...for
a number of reasons:
1. Ease of doing the installation. Remembering how many times the top came off
and on during its fitting - I can see that sliding this thing out and under
the three blade prop will be a RPITA.
2. Working on one variable at a time. I'll be having enough fun trimming the
aft end and sides without having to worry about the nose gear slot at the same
time.
3. If there are any differences between ground operations and flying operations
(there shouldn't be), I want the flying configuration to take priority.
My thinking of how to do it involves:
Weighting down the tail end so it is resting on a support.
Safety strapping around the prop - not lifting, just there in case.
Remove nose gear.
Fit the lower cowl per instructions (pretty much as if it were a tailweel airplane).
When I'm done for the day, put the nosegear back on for safety reasons.
After the lower cowl is fitted and the cam-locs/hinges are installed, I can work
on the nosegear slot as a seperate operation.
If you've been there, done that...your thoughts, please!
If you're thinking 'he forgot about...' then tell me!
If you think I'm on the right track, let me know - it'll reinforce the educational
part of why the FAA says we can do this!
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
Message 3
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In my experience, Grizzlys tools, and especially customer service, are much
better than Harbor Freight
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Crosley
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: band saw
Check out Grizzly Tools, http://grizzly.com/
I just requested a free catalog from them and got it in less than a week.
It's about an inch thick with every tool I ever seen. Looks like a good
tool source.
Rich Crosley
RV8, N948RC
11:14 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Gotta Jump in here
On the local news, Tom P. was saying that there are some changes in store
for the next few years, He claims that EAA will be spending more $ on
improvements over the next 5 years than they have over the last 25.
Some things that were mentioned were better transport around the grounds as
well as from the parking lots for the day-trippers, as well as improvements
to the campground. No specifics, but electric hookups would be nice.....
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P ( back from my first flight into OSH)
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
> Here's my take...
>
> EAA's annual fee is reasonable. I just wish the magazine spent more time
> on EXPERIMENTAL airplanes and less on, well, everything else -- including
> all the self-promoting they do. I REALLY get tired of the
> self-promoting.
>
> AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the cost is
> of all those porta-potties.
>
> AirVenture would be a lot better with some small changes. For one, more
> places to wash your hands! With soap. The maps should show the routes
> all the trams and busses take, maybe even with time to travel so you can
> decide if the tram is better than walking.
>
> The air show at AirVenture -- war birds and Extras, Extras and war birds.
> Where are the experimentals? And Mr. Announcer... SHUT UP. Could you be
> any more insipid? Also the staged "fake" performances are lame.
>
> The workshops at AirVenture rock!
>
> And I love the great access to all the vendors. 20 minute conversation
> with one of the guys from P-Mag, for instance.
>
> -J
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Ralph,
I think your idea of removing the nose gear during the fitting of the lower
cowl is a good one, but I would suggest you also remove that 3 bladed prop.
Van's has a detail of how to set a spacer to locate the prop spinner so you
can fit the cowl without having the prop in the way.
Another suggestion is to take a little time to build some sort of cart that
holds the lower cowl close to the proper height so you can roll it in and
out as you work on the fit. My guess is that it is going to be necessary
anyway after you are finished to remove the lower cowl by yourself. Mine is
a rough plywood box with casters on the bottom and the top contoured to the
shape of the cowl with foam pipe insulation as padding. It works a lot
better than it looks.
Terry
RV-8A in work
Seattle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:08 AM
Subject: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
I have my upper cowl pretty much trimmed the way that I want it and am
looking to start working on the lower cowl half.
I have been contemplating doing this installation with the nose gear leg
removed...for a number of reasons:
1. Ease of doing the installation. Remembering how many times the top came
off and on during its fitting - I can see that sliding this thing out and
under the three blade prop will be a RPITA.
2. Working on one variable at a time. I'll be having enough fun trimming
the aft end and sides without having to worry about the nose gear slot at
the same time.
3. If there are any differences between ground operations and flying
operations (there shouldn't be), I want the flying configuration to take
priority.
My thinking of how to do it involves:
Weighting down the tail end so it is resting on a support.
Safety strapping around the prop - not lifting, just there in case.
Remove nose gear.
Fit the lower cowl per instructions (pretty much as if it were a tailweel
airplane).
When I'm done for the day, put the nosegear back on for safety reasons.
After the lower cowl is fitted and the cam-locs/hinges are installed, I can
work on the nosegear slot as a seperate operation.
If you've been there, done that...your thoughts, please!
If you're thinking 'he forgot about...' then tell me!
If you think I'm on the right track, let me know - it'll reinforce the
educational part of why the FAA says we can do this!
Thanks,
Ralph Capen
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Yes, it would be kind of nice if they spent some of the $50,000,000 they
have in the bank on the ones "that brung 'em to the dance." Let's see,
better transportation....that leaves another $49,950,000 to spend. I
don't think they're hurtin' yet.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Orear
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
Gotta Jump in here
On the local news, Tom P. was saying that there are some changes in
store
for the next few years, He claims that EAA will be spending more $ on
improvements over the next 5 years than they have over the last 25.
Some things that were mentioned were better transport around the grounds
as
well as from the parking lots for the day-trippers, as well as
improvements
to the campground. No specifics, but electric hookups would be
nice.....
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P ( back from my first flight into OSH)
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
> Here's my take...
>
> EAA's annual fee is reasonable. I just wish the magazine spent more
> time
> on EXPERIMENTAL airplanes and less on, well, everything else --
including
> all the self-promoting they do. I REALLY get tired of the
> self-promoting.
>
> AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the
> cost is
> of all those porta-potties.
>
> AirVenture would be a lot better with some small changes. For one,
> more
> places to wash your hands! With soap. The maps should show the
routes
> all the trams and busses take, maybe even with time to travel so you
can
> decide if the tram is better than walking.
>
> The air show at AirVenture -- war birds and Extras, Extras and war
birds.
> Where are the experimentals? And Mr. Announcer... SHUT UP. Could
you be
> any more insipid? Also the staged "fake" performances are lame.
>
> The workshops at AirVenture rock!
>
> And I love the great access to all the vendors. 20 minute
> conversation
> with one of the guys from P-Mag, for instance.
>
> -J
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
I would not trust the spacer measurement given by Van's in the plans
(ask me how I know). It might be a pain having the prop on, but you
will have an accurate placement of the spinner bulkhead. At the very
least you could measure with the prop on and get the spacer length
from that.
Scott
RV-7A N653S
210 hours
On 7/30/07, Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
>
> Ralph,
>
> I think your idea of removing the nose gear during the fitting of the lower
> cowl is a good one, but I would suggest you also remove that 3 bladed prop.
> Van's has a detail of how to set a spacer to locate the prop spinner so you
> can fit the cowl without having the prop in the way.
>
> Another suggestion is to take a little time to build some sort of cart that
> holds the lower cowl close to the proper height so you can roll it in and
> out as you work on the fit. My guess is that it is going to be necessary
> anyway after you are finished to remove the lower cowl by yourself. Mine is
> a rough plywood box with casters on the bottom and the top contoured to the
> shape of the cowl with foam pipe insulation as padding. It works a lot
> better than it looks.
>
> Terry
> RV-8A in work
> Seattle
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:08 AM
> To: rv-list
> Subject: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
> I have my upper cowl pretty much trimmed the way that I want it and am
> looking to start working on the lower cowl half.
>
> I have been contemplating doing this installation with the nose gear leg
> removed...for a number of reasons:
>
> 1. Ease of doing the installation. Remembering how many times the top came
> off and on during its fitting - I can see that sliding this thing out and
> under the three blade prop will be a RPITA.
>
> 2. Working on one variable at a time. I'll be having enough fun trimming
> the aft end and sides without having to worry about the nose gear slot at
> the same time.
>
> 3. If there are any differences between ground operations and flying
> operations (there shouldn't be), I want the flying configuration to take
> priority.
>
> My thinking of how to do it involves:
>
> Weighting down the tail end so it is resting on a support.
> Safety strapping around the prop - not lifting, just there in case.
> Remove nose gear.
> Fit the lower cowl per instructions (pretty much as if it were a tailweel
> airplane).
> When I'm done for the day, put the nosegear back on for safety reasons.
>
> After the lower cowl is fitted and the cam-locs/hinges are installed, I can
> work on the nosegear slot as a seperate operation.
>
> If you've been there, done that...your thoughts, please!
> If you're thinking 'he forgot about...' then tell me!
> If you think I'm on the right track, let me know - it'll reinforce the
> educational part of why the FAA says we can do this!
>
> Thanks,
> Ralph Capen
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the cost is of
all those porta-potties.
>
I hear this, quite often. But I'm moved to ask, how much SHOULD it cost, given
the breadth of offerings there.
Also, earlier in the week, someone posted that the shuttle bus from the campground
to the AirVenture grounds was too expensive. I inquired how much that person
was paying and didn't hear back.
I checked after that post and found that, again this year, the cost consisted of
an optional 25-cent donation.
There are tricks to surviving Oshkosh. One of the big ones is don't buy food there...walk
over to the Sacred Heart shack and buy brats for $2 (drinks $1.50).
Beyond that, $7 to park is not unreasonable -- it costs me $10 to park at a Twins
game. $19 for a spot in a campground is not unreasonable. It's $20 (no hookup)
over at Circle R, and it's $5 a pop if you have more than 2 people over 16
total.
So that means we're talking about the daily admission, right? It's $22 a day...
$102 for the week. $18 for a spouse.. $16 for students.
Is that an unreasonable amount of money?
I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67 a day for anyone
10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's Field in Cleveland is $27.
(Beer is $7.50 a pop). I went to the Day in Pompeii exhibit at the Minnesota
Science Museum last month. It was $24 each.... $18 for kids.
So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is actually BELOW
events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.
So what EXACTLY is the problem?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126385#126385
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Maybe the problem is that since presumably most of us are members of the
EAA, we don't like OUR organization enhancing their intake by charging us
for participating in OUR events, especially if they are using volunteer
labor and running the surpluses that some say they are. Sure, you pay to go
to a theme park or a professional ball game or to a special exhibit at a
museum, but if you are a member of the Museum of Flight here in Seattle, you
get in free. It's the non-members that pay admission.
But this is all kind of academic to me. I don't expect to ever go to Oshkosh
because I have an aversion to crowds. All the self-promotion that EAA and
AOPA does reminds me of something learned years ago in business school: Non
profit organizations are non-profit because they distribute all income in
excess of expenses to someone other than share holders. That makes them one
of the most financially rewarding types of organizations to create, manage
or work for.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:00 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
<big snip>
I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67 a day for
anyone 10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's Field in Cleveland
is $27. (Beer is $7.50 a pop). I went to the Day in Pompeii exhibit at the
Minnesota Science Museum last month. It was $24 each.... $18 for kids.
So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is actually
BELOW events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.
So what EXACTLY is the problem?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126385#126385
Message 10
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| Subject: | RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Thanks for the suggestion about the cart...I don't know about the prop though...I
recall reading something that with a constant speed prop you have to have it
on - makes sense to me since the backing plate is part of the hub. I'll do
some more research though - it might make it easier if I can still get the accuracy.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com>
>Sent: Jul 30, 2007 1:17 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>Ralph,
>
>I think your idea of removing the nose gear during the fitting of the lower
>cowl is a good one, but I would suggest you also remove that 3 bladed prop.
>Van's has a detail of how to set a spacer to locate the prop spinner so you
>can fit the cowl without having the prop in the way.
>
>Another suggestion is to take a little time to build some sort of cart that
>holds the lower cowl close to the proper height so you can roll it in and
>out as you work on the fit. My guess is that it is going to be necessary
>anyway after you are finished to remove the lower cowl by yourself. Mine is
>a rough plywood box with casters on the bottom and the top contoured to the
>shape of the cowl with foam pipe insulation as padding. It works a lot
>better than it looks.
>
>Terry
>RV-8A in work
>Seattle
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:08 AM
>To: rv-list
>Subject: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>I have my upper cowl pretty much trimmed the way that I want it and am
>looking to start working on the lower cowl half.
>
>I have been contemplating doing this installation with the nose gear leg
>removed...for a number of reasons:
>
>1. Ease of doing the installation. Remembering how many times the top came
>off and on during its fitting - I can see that sliding this thing out and
>under the three blade prop will be a RPITA.
>
>2. Working on one variable at a time. I'll be having enough fun trimming
>the aft end and sides without having to worry about the nose gear slot at
>the same time.
>
>3. If there are any differences between ground operations and flying
>operations (there shouldn't be), I want the flying configuration to take
>priority.
>
>My thinking of how to do it involves:
>
>Weighting down the tail end so it is resting on a support.
>Safety strapping around the prop - not lifting, just there in case.
>Remove nose gear.
>Fit the lower cowl per instructions (pretty much as if it were a tailweel
>airplane).
>When I'm done for the day, put the nosegear back on for safety reasons.
>
>After the lower cowl is fitted and the cam-locs/hinges are installed, I can
>work on the nosegear slot as a seperate operation.
>
>If you've been there, done that...your thoughts, please!
>If you're thinking 'he forgot about...' then tell me!
>If you think I'm on the right track, let me know - it'll reinforce the
>educational part of why the FAA says we can do this!
>
>Thanks,
>Ralph Capen
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Measuring for a replication spacer might be the way to go.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Farner <sfarner@gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 30, 2007 1:57 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>I would not trust the spacer measurement given by Van's in the plans
>(ask me how I know). It might be a pain having the prop on, but you
>will have an accurate placement of the spinner bulkhead. At the very
>least you could measure with the prop on and get the spacer length
>from that.
>
>Scott
>RV-7A N653S
>210 hours
>
>On 7/30/07, Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ralph,
>>
>> I think your idea of removing the nose gear during the fitting of the lower
>> cowl is a good one, but I would suggest you also remove that 3 bladed prop.
>> Van's has a detail of how to set a spacer to locate the prop spinner so you
>> can fit the cowl without having the prop in the way.
>>
>> Another suggestion is to take a little time to build some sort of cart that
>> holds the lower cowl close to the proper height so you can roll it in and
>> out as you work on the fit. My guess is that it is going to be necessary
>> anyway after you are finished to remove the lower cowl by yourself. Mine is
>> a rough plywood box with casters on the bottom and the top contoured to the
>> shape of the cowl with foam pipe insulation as padding. It works a lot
>> better than it looks.
>>
>> Terry
>> RV-8A in work
>> Seattle
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:08 AM
>> To: rv-list
>> Subject: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>>
>>
>> I have my upper cowl pretty much trimmed the way that I want it and am
>> looking to start working on the lower cowl half.
>>
>> I have been contemplating doing this installation with the nose gear leg
>> removed...for a number of reasons:
>>
>> 1. Ease of doing the installation. Remembering how many times the top came
>> off and on during its fitting - I can see that sliding this thing out and
>> under the three blade prop will be a RPITA.
>>
>> 2. Working on one variable at a time. I'll be having enough fun trimming
>> the aft end and sides without having to worry about the nose gear slot at
>> the same time.
>>
>> 3. If there are any differences between ground operations and flying
>> operations (there shouldn't be), I want the flying configuration to take
>> priority.
>>
>> My thinking of how to do it involves:
>>
>> Weighting down the tail end so it is resting on a support.
>> Safety strapping around the prop - not lifting, just there in case.
>> Remove nose gear.
>> Fit the lower cowl per instructions (pretty much as if it were a tailweel
>> airplane).
>> When I'm done for the day, put the nosegear back on for safety reasons.
>>
>> After the lower cowl is fitted and the cam-locs/hinges are installed, I can
>> work on the nosegear slot as a seperate operation.
>>
>> If you've been there, done that...your thoughts, please!
>> If you're thinking 'he forgot about...' then tell me!
>> If you think I'm on the right track, let me know - it'll reinforce the
>> educational part of why the FAA says we can do this!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ralph Capen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Bob, You have away with words. Right on!
Great show!
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:00 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
> jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
>> AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the cost
>> is of all those porta-potties.
>>
>
>
> I hear this, quite often. But I'm moved to ask, how much SHOULD it cost,
> given the breadth of offerings there.
>
> Also, earlier in the week, someone posted that the shuttle bus from the
> campground to the AirVenture grounds was too expensive. I inquired how
> much that person was paying and didn't hear back.
>
> I checked after that post and found that, again this year, the cost
> consisted of an optional 25-cent donation.
>
> There are tricks to surviving Oshkosh. One of the big ones is don't buy
> food there...walk over to the Sacred Heart shack and buy brats for $2
> (drinks $1.50).
>
> Beyond that, $7 to park is not unreasonable -- it costs me $10 to park at
> a Twins game. $19 for a spot in a campground is not unreasonable. It's
> $20 (no hookup) over at Circle R, and it's $5 a pop if you have more than
> 2 people over 16 total.
>
> So that means we're talking about the daily admission, right? It's $22 a
> day... $102 for the week. $18 for a spouse.. $16 for students.
>
> Is that an unreasonable amount of money?
>
> I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67 a day
> for anyone 10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's Field in
> Cleveland is $27. (Beer is $7.50 a pop). I went to the Day in Pompeii
> exhibit at the Minnesota Science Museum last month. It was $24 each....
> $18 for kids.
>
> So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is actually
> BELOW events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.
>
> So what EXACTLY is the problem?
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126385#126385
>
>
> --
> 11:14 PM
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
It was nice to meet you last Wednesday, Bob.
Here's my take on the costs...
I don't think your comparisons are against comparable venues.
Parking -- it's unfair to compare parking for a Twins game. That's
deep in downtown in a paved lot. A more fair comparison would be the
Minnesota Renaissance Festival -- where you also park in a big open
field. Parking for Ren Fair is free.
Camping -- That $19 a night is high for the space you get. For $18,
I can go to Lake Elmo, get electrical and NOT be crammed in right
next to the people beside me. And it's not sitting next to a
freeway. Also, the "pay through the show and get a refund on the way
out" thing is annoying. Especially if you want to leave late in the
afternoon and get a refund for the following days, but the exit you
use has a big sign that says "camping refunds closed". Furthermore,
when I go to Lake Elmo, I get to actually camp under a few trees and
probably have more trees between me and my neighbors.
General Admission -- it's not $22. It's $22 if you're an EAA member,
$33 if you aren't. I renewed my membership strictly for the show.
Compare again to the Ren Fest at $19, and you don't have to join
anything. Now, I get a lot more out of a trip to AirVenture, but
most of what I really like about it costs the EAA almost nothing to
provide. The presenters are volunteers. The vendors most certainly
pay for the opportunity to talk to me. Yes, it costs something to
provide the venue, and I recognize that.
I guess what bugged me was giving them $200 for a Wednesday night
arrival, plus I did a $20 donation to the Young Eagles raffle. Right
now with my wife not working, $200 means something to me. A few
years ago with a working spouse and a gangbusters consultancy going,
$200 wasn't a big deal to me. So everything is relative.
If they're going to charge commercial prices for things, they should
deliver commercial quality services. Those camping facilities
weren't commercial quality. Parking was not commercial quality. So
don't charge me commercial rates to park / camp in a field where I
can listen to the freeway and hear the folks around me whispering to
each other (much less slamming of RV doors, kids giggling, cars
driving around looking for a place to camp, etc).
For the show itself -- is it worth $22? Depends. If you hit the
workshops, then yes. For access to vendors? Well I guess I would
expect whatever they paid to cover the mutual cost. I don't pay to
go to a shopping mall, after all, unless I buy something. So
offering a multi-day discount seems reasonable. Maybe $22 each of
the first two days, but a lower rate for subsequent days.
-Joe
On Jul 30, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>
> jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
>> AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the
>> cost is of all those porta-potties.
>>
>
>
> I hear this, quite often. But I'm moved to ask, how much SHOULD it
> cost, given the breadth of offerings there.
>
> Also, earlier in the week, someone posted that the shuttle bus from
> the campground to the AirVenture grounds was too expensive. I
> inquired how much that person was paying and didn't hear back.
>
> I checked after that post and found that, again this year, the cost
> consisted of an optional 25-cent donation.
>
> There are tricks to surviving Oshkosh. One of the big ones is don't
> buy food there...walk over to the Sacred Heart shack and buy brats
> for $2 (drinks $1.50).
>
> Beyond that, $7 to park is not unreasonable -- it costs me $10 to
> park at a Twins game. $19 for a spot in a campground is not
> unreasonable. It's $20 (no hookup) over at Circle R, and it's $5 a
> pop if you have more than 2 people over 16 total.
>
> So that means we're talking about the daily admission, right? It's
> $22 a day... $102 for the week. $18 for a spouse.. $16 for students.
>
> Is that an unreasonable amount of money?
>
> I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67
> a day for anyone 10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's
> Field in Cleveland is $27. (Beer is $7.50 a pop). I went to the
> Day in Pompeii exhibit at the Minnesota Science Museum last month.
> It was $24 each.... $18 for kids.
>
> So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is
> actually BELOW events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.
>
> So what EXACTLY is the problem?
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126385#126385
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Terry Watson wrote:
> Maybe the problem is that since presumably most of us are members of the
> EAA, we don't like OUR organization enhancing their intake by charging us
> for participating in OUR events, especially if they are using volunteer
> labor and running the surpluses that some say they are.
As someone smart once said to me, "you could stand on the corner throwing $100
bills in the air and you'd still find someone to tell you you're an a-hole."
That's the situation Poberezny is in and while he may not be building planes in
his garage, I found no shortage of people who are building airplanes at AirVenture,
and no shortage of things directed toward people who are. Of course, I
also found no shortage of things aimed at people who are doing all sorts of other
things.
If anyone would actually walk from any part of Oshkosh to any *other* part of Oshkosh,
they will find that there's more to putting on AirVenture than volunteers.
Beyond that, most of the folks who seem not to like AirVenture, also acknowledge
they don't actually *go* to AirVenture.
I think that's fine; people should be able to make the choices they want to make,
without insisting that it change to accomodate the people who don't go.
Personally, when people say AirVenture is too corporate and has lost its homebulding
roots, I wonder what they did while they were AT AirVenture? There's something
for everyone as near as I can tell. The amount of stuff I wanted to get
to and didn't reached an all-time high for me this year. Still, it was the best
one I've ever had.
Many of those same people who complain that AirVenture isn't what it was 20 years
ago, are also the ones that showed up in giant RVs with air conditioning,
expandable living rooms and giant satellite dishes. Or, perhaps, they flew in
with their all glass cockpits in their homebuilts.
Again, that's fine. But why would you want AirVenture to be just like 20 years
ago when the last think we want in our homebuilts, it appears, is for them to
be exactly like they were 20 years ago.
No matter what the answer, I still come away every year from these threads with
complaints without an answer to EXACTLY what it is people want?
Everyone I ran into last week -- and I'd guess that number would be between 750
and 1,000 -- were having a great time. Maybe it's because they didn't do things
they didn't like doing, and were doing things they did.
But it's impossible for me to believe that at something as diverse as AirVenture,
folks who are really interested in getting something out of it for the money
they put into it, don't get something significant out of it.
In the big scheme of thing, the cost of AirVenture is chicken feed.
But here's the thing. In this country right now, we insist not only that *our*
individual tastes be met, we insist that other individual tastes NOT be met. It's
ludicrous and it's why homebulders don't like warbirds who don't like seaplane
people who don't like ultralight people who don't like Cirrus owners who
don't like RV owners.
Good Lord, AirVenture is un-flippin' believable in terms of the wide range of interests
represented therein. People who don't like it aren't really trying that
hard to find their own interests, or are working too hard to find reasons to
be unsatisfied.
The folks who volunteer ALL seem to be having a great time and found their experience
worthwhile. They didn't seem to be bitter or feel they were being taken
advantage of. They seemed to like being a part of something.
AirVenture isn't the group that sponsors it. It's the people who are part of it.
I'd pay twice as much to be with them again and it's only been two days since
I left.
If, in its present state, AirVenture were to disappear tomorrow, I can't imagine
for a minute feeling as though I were better off because of its disappearance.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126417#126417
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Hey Bob,
Glad to meet you by the way and very much enjoyed the BBQ and the people who
volunteered to help. I worked most of it and enjoyed every minute of it.
Thanks a bunch for championing that event.
It was I who remarked about the shuttle bus charging but not because it cost
too much. It was more about the idea of charging for it at all. It is
kinda like charging high camping rates (higher than any campground I have
stayed in for dry camping. Charging admission rates that are reasonable
compared to other venues, but full fare none the less and then oh by the way
we want you to donate funds to get you from the camping to the gate even
though our drivers work endlessly for free. 25 cents is nothing really and
we paid it with a smile for the driver's sake. EAA has no need to charge
for it.
Overall this was a little thing and EAA certainly needs to implement big
changes to keep up with the growth they have. They certainly have done a
pretty good job all things considered and I am not really complaining. But
my nature is to say when I see individual things done poorly that could
easily be fixed with a little tweek, I suspect they see it too and should
consider fixing it. I was at Oshkosh in 2000 and saw the same things done
poorly this time as was done then. That suggests someone isn't paying
attention.
Besides this, I had a great time, enjoyed everything, and was appreciative
for the event. Just to be clear, I am not slamming the event and I
certainly paid more than I think I should have, but it is the nature of the
event business. This one however mostly volunteer by people just like you
and I and the EAA org is getting the full benefit in profits. Too bad they
can't put some of that big profit back into making the event a little easier
for those who attend.
Tim
Do Not Archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
>
> jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> > AirVenture is too expensive. But then, I have to wonder what the cost
> is of all those porta-potties.
> >
>
>
> I hear this, quite often. But I'm moved to ask, how much SHOULD it cost,
> given the breadth of offerings there.
>
> Also, earlier in the week, someone posted that the shuttle bus from the
> campground to the AirVenture grounds was too expensive. I inquired how
> much that person was paying and didn't hear back.
>
> I checked after that post and found that, again this year, the cost
> consisted of an optional 25-cent donation.
>
> There are tricks to surviving Oshkosh. One of the big ones is don't buy
> food there...walk over to the Sacred Heart shack and buy brats for $2
> (drinks $1.50).
>
> Beyond that, $7 to park is not unreasonable -- it costs me $10 to park at
> a Twins game. $19 for a spot in a campground is not unreasonable. It's
> $20 (no hookup) over at Circle R, and it's $5 a pop if you have more than
> 2 people over 16 total.
>
> So that means we're talking about the daily admission, right? It's $22 a
> day... $102 for the week. $18 for a spouse.. $16 for students.
>
> Is that an unreasonable amount of money?
>
> I'll take Oshkosh over Disneyworld anyday. Disneyworld charges $67 a day
> for anyone 10 and over. A two hour baseball game at Jacob's Field in
> Cleveland is $27. (Beer is $7.50 a pop). I went to the Day in Pompeii
> exhibit at the Minnesota Science Museum last month. It was $24 each....
> $18 for kids.
>
> So what we're really talking about here is a daily ticket that is actually
> BELOW events that are nowhere near comparable in scope.
>
> So what EXACTLY is the problem?
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126385#126385
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:57, Terry Watson wrote:
>
> Maybe the problem is that since presumably most of us are members
> of the
> EAA, we don't like OUR organization enhancing their intake by
> charging us
> for participating in OUR events, especially if they are using
> volunteer
> labor and running the surpluses that some say they are. Sure, you
> pay to go
> to a theme park or a professional ball game or to a special exhibit
> at a
> museum, but if you are a member of the Museum of Flight here in
> Seattle, you
> get in free. It's the non-members that pay admission.
>
> But this is all kind of academic to me. I don't expect to ever
But what about the huge number of EAA members who, for one reason or
another, cannot attend the OSH fly-in? Should their membership dues
be subsidizing the members who can attend? That doesn't seem fair to
me. I believe the costs of the annual fly-in should be borne by
those who attend. EAA membership dues should be used to pay all the
other costs of running EAA.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 17
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| Subject: | RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
I fit the lower cowl and the upper cowm in place with the prop and the nose gear off. The MT website has a detail dwg of the prop, and from that you can get the spacer size required. See http://www.mt-propeller.com/en/entw/operation.htm
I made a round wooden spacer for the hole in the cowl and overlapped some strips
on the fromt for the cowl to butt againts. I also offset it a bit so the spinner
was a bit high so it would settle in over time to alignment.
Worked for me.....
Do Not Archive
Ted French C-FXCS
RV-10 Flying
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
Sent: July 30, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
Thanks for the suggestion about the cart...I don't know about the prop though...I
recall reading something that with a constant speed prop you have to have it
on - makes sense to me since the backing plate is part of the hub. I'll do
some more research though - it might make it easier if I can still get the accuracy.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Terry Watson <terry@tcwatson.com>
>Sent: Jul 30, 2007 1:17 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>Ralph,
>
>I think your idea of removing the nose gear during the fitting of the lower
>cowl is a good one, but I would suggest you also remove that 3 bladed prop.
>Van's has a detail of how to set a spacer to locate the prop spinner so you
>can fit the cowl without having the prop in the way.
>
>Another suggestion is to take a little time to build some sort of cart that
>holds the lower cowl close to the proper height so you can roll it in and
>out as you work on the fit. My guess is that it is going to be necessary
>anyway after you are finished to remove the lower cowl by yourself. Mine is
>a rough plywood box with casters on the bottom and the top contoured to the
>shape of the cowl with foam pipe insulation as padding. It works a lot
>better than it looks.
>
>Terry
>RV-8A in work
>Seattle
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:08 AM
>To: rv-list
>Subject: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>I have my upper cowl pretty much trimmed the way that I want it and am
>looking to start working on the lower cowl half.
>
>I have been contemplating doing this installation with the nose gear leg
>removed...for a number of reasons:
>
>1. Ease of doing the installation. Remembering how many times the top came
>off and on during its fitting - I can see that sliding this thing out and
>under the three blade prop will be a RPITA.
>
>2. Working on one variable at a time. I'll be having enough fun trimming
>the aft end and sides without having to worry about the nose gear slot at
>the same time.
>
>3. If there are any differences between ground operations and flying
>operations (there shouldn't be), I want the flying configuration to take
>priority.
>
>My thinking of how to do it involves:
>
>Weighting down the tail end so it is resting on a support.
>Safety strapping around the prop - not lifting, just there in case.
>Remove nose gear.
>Fit the lower cowl per instructions (pretty much as if it were a tailweel
>airplane).
>When I'm done for the day, put the nosegear back on for safety reasons.
>
>After the lower cowl is fitted and the cam-locs/hinges are installed, I can
>work on the nosegear slot as a seperate operation.
>
>If you've been there, done that...your thoughts, please!
>If you're thinking 'he forgot about...' then tell me!
>If you think I'm on the right track, let me know - it'll reinforce the
>educational part of why the FAA says we can do this!
>
>Thanks,
>Ralph Capen
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost to take it.
There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put any money in it
(and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is any guide, most don't).
It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to put an extra
shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working for free.
Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space once a year
-- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started at 6 in the morning
with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, visited with tons of people,
watched every kind of plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a half mile
to the show... and in the evening munched on free popcorn while watching a
movie on the lawn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo
13.
I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems like a ripoff.
I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. I pay $55 for broadband
and another $47 for satellite TV and none of those things seem like great
value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled excitement just doesn't bother me much.
It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation is concerned
-- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of ground where something
is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else in the world.
I can think of so many things that bug me more.
Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm going to find
out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to bang on pots outside
their hotel rooms.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
Message 19
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| Subject: | : EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Kevin,
You make much sense . Then again, few will listen. I've stopped
going to either "big flyin".
Jim
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
That's a very good point, Kevin. Part of the reason I don't mind paying the
twelve dollars or so to spend a couple of hours at the EAA Arlington every
year is that I know that non-members are paying a bit more, so there is some
benefit to me from my membership. And I certainly don't expect those EAA
members far away to be subsidizing my attendance.
I'm all for those who use something paying for it (that was called User Fees
until that got such a bad smell in private aviation).
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
But what about the huge number of EAA members who, for one reason or
another, cannot attend the OSH fly-in? Should their membership dues
be subsidizing the members who can attend? That doesn't seem fair to
me. I believe the costs of the annual fly-in should be borne by
those who attend. EAA membership dues should be used to pay all the
other costs of running EAA.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Bob, I agree that the show has things going for it.
But your comment about the truckers and their air horns sort of hits
the nail squarely on the head. If we're going to put up with
truckers hitting air horns, then $19 a day for camping is high.
I think the discussion is (for me) over about $50 -- 25% of what I
gave the EAA last Wednesday. My original comment wasn't "OMG it's
WAY too expensive." Just a little high, that's all.
-J
On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
> <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
> Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
>
> The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually
> cost to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is
> required to put any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my
> anecdotal experience is any guide, most don't).
>
> It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year
> to put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
>
> By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT
> working for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
>
> I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl
> space once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I
> started at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights
> fly overhead, visited with tons of people, watched every kind of
> plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the
> show... and in the evening munched on free popcorn while watching a
> movie on the lawn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell
> talk about Apollo 13.
>
> I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT
> seems like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like
> a ripoff. I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV
> and none of those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of
> unparalleled excitement just doesn't bother me much.
>
> It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where
> aviation is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was
> on a spot of ground where something is happening that is not
> happening ANYWHERE else in the world.
>
> I can think of so many things that bug me more.
>
> Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm
> going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to
> bang on pots outside their hotel rooms.
>
> --------
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, Minn.
> RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
> http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
FWIW, I've posted the EAA tax filing for 2006 here:
http://home.comcast.net/~bcollinsrv7a/eaa/files/eaa.pdf
It might help illuminate the money thing.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126459#126459
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all have
always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help. It
HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5 years
ago, when we first went.
My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first time.
It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign that said
the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm
The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the other
volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT, and
all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to meet
and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so long, but
haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen or Dave
Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you.
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost to
take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put any
money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is any
guide, most don't).
It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to put an
extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working for
free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space once a
year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started at 6 in the
morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, visited with tons
of people, watched every kind of plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a
half mile to the show... and in the evening munched on free popcorn while
watching a movie on the lawn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell
talk about Apollo 13.
I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems like a
ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. I pay $55
for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of those things seem
like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled excitement just doesn't
bother me much.
It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation is
concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of ground
where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else in the
world.
I can think of so many things that bug me more.
Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm going to
find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to bang on pots
outside their hotel rooms.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
11:14 PM
11:14 PM
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
> But your comment about the truckers and their air horns sort of hits the nail
squarely on the head. If we're going to put up with truckers hitting air horns,
then $19 a day for camping is high.
>
> I think the discussion is (for me) over about $50 -- 25% of what I
> gave the EAA last Wednesday. My original comment wasn't "OMG it's
> WAY too expensive." Just a little high, that's all.
>
>
I'm trying to figure out what camping fee would've made me lose less sleep. (g)
Seriously, I consider it a fault of the Oshkosh police department and Wisconsin
State patrol that a bunch of gap-toothed morons got to disturb the peace with
impunity.
By the way, if you want to beat the EAA at its own game, stake out a campsite
that you would feel comfortable with. The 20 x 30 regulation was in place years
ago when camping units weren't so big. I don't think anybody ever checks. Want
a 50 foot buffer? Stake it out.
As for the kids giggling and folks talking all hours of the night. I'm afraid I'm
at least partially guilty, although I did try to see people as they set up
near me and first thing I said was, "let me explain to you what you're getting
yourself into here..."
BTW, I heard the Super 8 had rooms as late as Saturday night. What's up with THAT?
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126462#126462
Message 25
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In our group of 4 pilots and family the best part of the Show was the
staged "fake" performance done in the Cub. We all loved performance and
as pilot's we all know how easy it is to land a cub. You know it's
never that easy but he could make that cub do what ever he wanted,
including run over the top of him.
Also, the announcer did a great job after the P-51A accident on rwy36.
He never missed a beat. There are a lot of young kids at the show and
the announcer had wonderful compassion and composure. Just me.
Condolences: The Gerald Beck Family
Jim Fogarty
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007:
Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several
points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security
never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them
drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some?
Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year.
Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and
candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I
miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and
start smoking)
Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to
pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or
15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the
airshow routine when half the people had already left).
Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor
spots...some $2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little
vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to
past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth
their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors
still seem to be able to afford it...
I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of
experience to gauge against).
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Brian Meyette wrote:
>
>I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all have
>always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help. It
>HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5 years
>ago, when we first went.
>
>My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first time.
>It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign that said
>the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm
>
>The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the other
>volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT, and
>all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to meet
>and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so long, but
>haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen or Dave
>Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you.
>
>brian
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
>Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
>
>The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost to
>take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put any
>money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is any
>guide, most don't).
>
>It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to put an
>extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
>
>By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working for
>free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
>
>I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space once a
>year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started at 6 in the
>morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, visited with tons
>of people, watched every kind of plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a
>half mile to the show... and in the evening munched on free popcorn while
>watching a movie on the lawn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell
>talk about Apollo 13.
>
>I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems like a
>ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. I pay $55
>for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of those things seem
>like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled excitement just doesn't
>bother me much.
>
>It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation is
>concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of ground
>where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else in the
>world.
>
>I can think of so many things that bug me more.
>
>Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm going to
>find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to bang on pots
>outside their hotel rooms.
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
>
>
>11:14 PM
>
>11:14 PM
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
It is always a pleasure to associate with fellow flyers and see what is new
in aviation.
I wish we had more events to attend each year. My only complaint is the Hil
ton's room
rate was alittle steep at $299 per night, but the food is great as usual.
See ya next year,
Craig> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:40:22 +0000> From: acepilot@bloomer.net> T
o: rv-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
ONAL) observations of OSH 2007:> > Camp Scholler West-most shower house had
"NO CAMPING" signs at several > points around the grass and was ignored by
4 or 5 campers. EAA security > never said squat and I was there for the en
tire convention and saw them > drive by without a look. Why the "privilege"
for some?> > Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year.> > T
rash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and > cand
y wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I > miss t
hat? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and > start smok
ing)> > Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others
to > pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or
> 15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the
> airshow routine when half the people had already left).> > Prices? I saw
on the Airventure website the prices of vendor > spots...some $2K some $5K.
Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little > vendor activity in ultraligh
t section. Little down by Van's compared to > past years. Has the bubble bu
rst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth > their investment in a space? The
sunglasses and pots and pan vendors > still seem to be able to afford it..
.> > I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of > exper
ience to gauge against).> > Scott> http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/> Gotta Fl
y or Gonna Die> Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)> > > > Brian Meyet
starband.net>> >> >I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some sugges
tions, but all have> >always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of chan
ges will help. It> >HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten be
tter than 5 years> >ago, when we first went.> >> >My wife and I took the fr
ee shuttle to the seaplane base for the first time.> >It wasn't a big deal,
but after we got there, they had a big sign that said> >the shuttle was $2
round trip. Hmmmm> >> >The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, D
arwin and all the other> >volunteers for putting on such a great event. Tha
nks to Stein, GRT, and> >all the other vendors who contributed to it. It wa
s a real pleasure to meet> >and chat with so many nice people I've known vi
a Internet for so long, but> >haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't fi
nd Chad Jensen or Dave> >Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed
you.> >> >brian> >> >> >> >-----Original Message-----> >From: owner-rv-lis
t-server@matronics.com> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Beha
lf Of Bob Collins> >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM> >To: rv-list@matro
nics.com> >Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh> >> >--> RV-List m
essage posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>> >> >Hey, Tim. L
ikewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.> >> >The shuttle bus thing is int
eresting because it doesn't actually cost to> >take it. There's a donation
box there, but nobody is required to put any> >money in it (and, if the las
t 5 years of my anecdotal experience is any> >guide, most don't).> >> >It a
lso worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to put an> >
extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.> >> >By the way, I'm pret
ty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working for> >free. Nor is the ga
soline those busses use free.> >> >I'm not much into camping -- the tent co
mes down from the crawl space once a> >year -- so I don't know if $19 is hi
gh or not....but I started at 6 in the> >morning with coffee watching the u
ltralights fly overhead, visited with tons> >of people, watched every kind
of plane fly overhead... occasionally walked a> >half mile to the show... a
nd in the evening munched on free popcorn while> >watching a movie on the l
awn, after listening to the likes of James Lovell> >talk about Apollo 13.>
>> >I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems li
ke a> >ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. I pa
y $55> >for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of those th
ings seem> >like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled excitement ju
st doesn't> >bother me much.> >> >It's probably just me -- I'm an easily im
pressed person where aviation is> >concerned -- but I just kept thinking th
at here I was on a spot of ground> >where something is happening that is no
t happening ANYWHERE else in the> >world.> >> >I can think of so many thing
s that bug me more.> >> >Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in
the morning. I'm going to> >find out where the truckers convention is and
I'm going to bang on pots> >outside their hotel rooms.> >> >--------> >Bob
Collins> >St. Paul, Minn.> >RV Builder's Hotline (free!)> >http://rvhotline
.expercraft.com> >> >> >> >> >Read this topic online here:> >> >http://foru
ms.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
====> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!--
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlmailtextlink
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Larson" <jpl@showpage.org>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
> It was nice to meet you last Wednesday, Bob.
>
> Here's my take on the costs...
>
> I don't think your comparisons are against comparable venues.
>
> Parking -- it's unfair to compare parking for a Twins game. That's deep
> in downtown in a paved lot. A more fair comparison would be the
> Minnesota Renaissance Festival -- where you also park in a big open
> field. Parking for Ren Fair is free.
One difference here is that the Renaissance festival probably runs for more
than one week a year. How much do you think it costs the EAA to own or lease
those fields on an annual basis? All for one week of revenue.
Same thing for camping. The local campground has 365 days a year to cover
its overhead. The EAA campgrounds have one week of income a year to fund
maintenance, improvements, etc.
Beyond that, even with volunteer labor, it is frightfully expensive to fund
Airventure. All the busses. You've gotta rent 'em, pay the driver, and buy
gas. Cutting grass and laying out parking areas. Providing medical support
for 100,000 people. Insurance. It goes on and on.
I consider Airventure to be an outstanding "value" entertainment wise. My 2
seats for football games at my Alma Mater cost about $1k/year, and that
doesn't include parking. Airventure is peanuts in comparison.
KB
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Not disagreeing with Kyle but EAA does rent out the facility to other
groups/functions. Ducks Unlimited is one that comes to mind.
Dale Ensing
> One difference here is that the Renaissance festival probably runs for
> more than one week a year. How much do you think it costs the EAA to own
> or lease those fields on an annual basis? All for one week of revenue.
>
> Same thing for camping. The local campground has 365 days a year to cover
> its overhead. The EAA campgrounds have one week of income a year to fund
> maintenance, improvements, etc.
>
> KB
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Looking for Flamer... |
I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame
graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars.
Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area.
Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans...
Thanks & do not archive
Mark
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 31
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| Subject: | Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 |
I finally got around to reading the Dynon web page describing the new
HSI capability. I have an SL-30, so it sounds like I'd be foolish not
to hook it up. Has any one tried it? Does it work without any gotchas?
Am I correct that I want to connect the RS-232 serial port on pins 3, 4,
and 5, of the SL-30 to the serial #1 pins (9, 10, 22) on the D10A?
Apparently the Serial port 2 on the Dynon is used for the blind encoder,
yes? I can't find any detailed wiring info on the Dynon web page. If
any one has found some, please send me the link.
Thansk,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A , electrical system.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Hi Ralph,
My 6-a cowl came in two parts that required being fibreglassed together.
I often wish I had made the lower inlet snorkel section a removable piece
held on with screws and nut plates.
I doubt however that I would try to make such a modification the newer
single piece epoxy glass lower cowl.
I have a two blade C/S prop and find it hard to imagine getting the lower
cowl on with that third blade in the way.
If you have a prop shop or an airport near by you might find a bare hub
without blades the can be borrowed to use during the cowl fitting process.
Maybe someone on the list could locate one for you.
If at all possible, wait until the very last buy that prop. Before you know
it the overhaul period shows up and the bank account takes another hit.
If you don't know what I mean ...Don't ask{8-)
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
> Thanks for the suggestion about the cart...I don't know about the prop
> though...I recall reading something that with a constant speed prop you
> have to have it on - makes sense to me since the backing plate is part of
> the hub. I'll do some more research though - it might make it easier if I
> can still get the accuracy.
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 |
Go to the forums section of Dynon's site. You can post all kinds of
questions there and get them answered in pretty short order by Dynon
employees (and customers too).
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
sarg314 wrote:
>
> I finally got around to reading the Dynon web page describing the new
> HSI capability. I have an SL-30, so it sounds like I'd be foolish not
> to hook it up. Has any one tried it? Does it work without any gotchas?
>
> Am I correct that I want to connect the RS-232 serial port on pins 3,
> 4, and 5, of the SL-30 to the serial #1 pins (9, 10, 22) on the D10A?
> Apparently the Serial port 2 on the Dynon is used for the blind
> encoder, yes? I can't find any detailed wiring info on the Dynon web
> page. If any one has found some, please send me the link.
> Thansk,
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A , electrical system.
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Ever wonder where the bottled water you consumed at OSH really comes from. You
know that 12 oz bottle that is at least a dollar, or two or three. Well, a local
LA TV station just pointed out that most if not ALL the fancy water originally
starts at a tap. Oh they filter it, add stuff and sell it to us. (Pepsi &
Coke are the largest suppliers)
Didn't get to OSH this year but I'll bet ya'll paid more for water (per gallon)
than you did AVGAS. But take heart the AVGAS you burnt is gone for good BUT the
water you filtered thru "your" system will will be back at the tap sometime
in the future. KABONG Do Not Archive HRII N561FS
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