Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:42 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen)
2. 05:49 AM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
3. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson)
4. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Chuck Jensen)
5. 06:54 AM - Re: Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 (Sam Buchanan)
6. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson)
7. 07:34 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Dale Ensing)
8. 07:38 AM - Osh Criticism (Richard Seiders)
9. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (John Jessen)
10. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson)
11. 08:06 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Robin Marks)
12. 08:10 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen)
13. 08:11 AM - EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Kenyon Brooks)
14. 08:38 AM - I have no EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Christopher Stone)
15. 09:19 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 10:14 AM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Larry E. James)
17. 10:34 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Chuck Jensen)
18. 10:34 AM - Re: EAA Criticism (JAMES BOWEN)
19. 10:43 AM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
20. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joseph Larson)
21. 11:45 AM - Cowl Intake plugs (Tim Bryan)
22. 12:44 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Dale Ensing)
23. 12:46 PM - Re: Cowl Intake plugs (Dale Ensing)
24. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen)
25. 12:52 PM - Re: Cowl Intake plugs (Tim Bryan)
26. 12:57 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen)
27. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (John Jessen)
28. 01:17 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
29. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen)
30. 02:01 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
31. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Scott)
32. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joseph Larson)
33. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Scott)
34. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Terry Watson)
35. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Scott)
36. 03:04 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
37. 03:07 PM - Trade for F-1 Rocket or RV-8 (Ed Wischmeyer)
38. 03:10 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
39. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Scott)
40. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (n801bh@netzero.com)
41. 03:20 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
42. 03:56 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
43. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Terry Watson)
44. 04:01 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins)
45. 04:27 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins)
46. 04:51 PM - For Sale: Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/One w/ Dual Displays (Mike Kraus)
47. 04:54 PM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
48. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen)
49. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen)
50. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (c.ennis)
51. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Sherman Butler)
52. 09:48 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (JAMES BOWEN)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Jim,
Good advice - too late for me though...already have the prop - already had it 'rebuilt'....actually,
I had the wrong (short) hub so they rebuilt it while it
was getting the correct hub put on it.
My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass 'plate'
to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be attaching that
with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates.
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Jewell <jjewell@telus.net>
>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 1:24 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>Hi Ralph,
>
>My 6-a cowl came in two parts that required being fibreglassed together.
>I often wish I had made the lower inlet snorkel section a removable piece
>held on with screws and nut plates.
>I doubt however that I would try to make such a modification the newer
>single piece epoxy glass lower cowl.
>
>I have a two blade C/S prop and find it hard to imagine getting the lower
>cowl on with that third blade in the way.
>
>If you have a prop shop or an airport near by you might find a bare hub
>without blades the can be borrowed to use during the cowl fitting process.
>Maybe someone on the list could locate one for you.
>
>If at all possible, wait until the very last buy that prop. Before you know
>it the overhaul period shows up and the bank account takes another hit.
>
>If you don't know what I mean ...Don't ask{8-)
>
>Jim in Kelowna
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:15 PM
>Subject: RE: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestion about the cart...I don't know about the prop
>> though...I recall reading something that with a constant speed prop you
>> have to have it on - makes sense to me since the backing plate is part of
>> the hub. I'll do some more research though - it might make it easier if I
>> can still get the accuracy.
>>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote:
> Didn't get to OSH this year but I'll bet ya'll paid more for water (per gallon)
than you did AVGAS.
At WalMart, Ice Mountain was on sale. 32 bottles for $4.74. what's that? About
15 cents each.
As with anything else, a little thinking and a slight amount of work can make a
week at Oshkosh comparatively inexpensive. But it's like everything else, you
pay for convenience.
A lot of this reminds me of the kvetching over the high price of gasoline. Everyone
does it, but only *I* seem to be the one driving 55 these days (g).
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126563#126563
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Kyle Boatright wrote:
> Same thing for camping. The local campground has 365 days a year to
> cover its overhead. The EAA campgrounds have one week of income a
> year to fund maintenance, improvements, etc.
These are fair comments, although I don't see what sort of
improvements are made to an open field :-) But yes, it costs
something to just own the land.
> I consider Airventure to be an outstanding "value" entertainment
> wise. My 2 seats for football games at my Alma Mater cost about
> $1k/year, and that doesn't include parking. Airventure is peanuts
> in comparison.
>
As I said at one point in this thread -- costs are relative. In the
90s, computer consultancy was very profitable, and $200 or even $1000
weren't a big deal to me. But now I'm supporting a family of 4 on a
single income, paying for my wife's master's degree, and making less
than I did in the late 90s. $200 matters to me.
And I went solo. I don't know how folks earning less than I do pay
for things like this for the entire family.
-Joe
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
The fee charged to vendors will eventually cramp the style of
Airventure. Let's work with the estimated $2K to $5K fee. For this
purpose, we'll use $3K as the base. By the time vendor pays the fee,
staffs the booth with a minimum of 3 people for 10 days, including
packing for the show and demobilization, that's 30 man-days or 1.5
man-months. At $65,000 per year, that's a cost of $8,125. Add in $125
per day for lodging and food per person (3 x 10 x $125) we see living
expenses are$3,750. Add in shipping, mileage to OSH and misc. other
costs, another $2k is easily consumed. So a conservative total is right
at $15,000 for a booth.
Of course, to recover that $15,000 cost, a vendor has to sell $45,000 to
$60,000 of product....just to break even. The product he sold to break
even means he has a few fewer customers out there, though there will be
plenty of no cost follow on questions, technical support and warranty
costs. Right now, the new EFISs are hot, but as that market shakes out,
how many vendors will be left. Certainly the cost of the Show will
drive the small, innovative, gizmo inventor away as he can never recover
his costs. As a result, we'll lose access to many of the "small" new
ideas that makes OSH and GA interesting. Soon enough, Honda Jet,
Eclipse Jet, Joe Jet, et al will be the main vendors since they are the
ones with the margins that justify attendance. It will start looking
like a mini-me NBAA Convention.
Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the
activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do with
meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping
tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to
see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little
interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get
together.
As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its
business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of
$50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and what do
they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches
with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007:
Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several
points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security
never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them
drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some?
Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year.
Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and
candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I
miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and
start smoking)
Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to
pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or
15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the
airshow routine when half the people had already left).
Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor
spots...some $2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little
vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to
past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth
their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors
still seem to be able to afford it...
I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of
experience to gauge against).
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Brian Meyette wrote:
>--> <brianpublic2@starband.net>
>
>I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all
have
>always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help.
It
>HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5
>years ago, when we first went.
>
>My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first
>time. It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign
>that said the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm
>
>The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the
other
>volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT,
and
>all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to
>meet and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so
>long, but haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen
>or Dave Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you.
>
>brian
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
>Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
>
>The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost
>to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put
>any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is
>any guide, most don't).
>
>It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to
>put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
>
>By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working
>for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
>
>I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space
>once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started
>at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead,
>visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly
>overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the
>evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn,
>after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13.
>
>I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems
>like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff.
>I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of
>those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled
>excitement just doesn't bother me much.
>
>It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation
>is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of
>ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else
>in the world.
>
>I can think of so many things that bug me more.
>
>Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm
>going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to
>bang on pots outside their hotel rooms.
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
>
>
>11:14 PM
>
>11:14 PM
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 |
sarg314 wrote:
>
> I finally got around to reading the Dynon web page describing the new
> HSI capability. I have an SL-30, so it sounds like I'd be foolish not
> to hook it up. Has any one tried it? Does it work without any gotchas?
I use the HSI with a GPS feed and it works very nicely. According to
traffic on the Dynon forum the SL30 version of the HSI is also good.
I can't find any detailed wiring info on the Dynon web page. If
> any one has found some, please send me the link.
Straight from the Dynon web site:
http://dynonavionics.com/docs/support_documentation.html
Sam Buchanan
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
LOL. Bob, I drove my Prius to Oshkosh. There and back on a 10-
gallon tank of gas. :-)
But I didn't go to Wal Mart for water.
-J
On Jul 31, 2007, at 7:49 AM, Bob Collins wrote:
>
> A lot of this reminds me of the kvetching over the high price of
> gasoline. Everyone does it, but only *I* seem to be the one driving
> 55 these days (g).
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Ralph,
If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no
need to make a plate to cover the slot.
Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that I
have on my 6A and would recommend.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass
> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be
> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates.
>
> Ralph
>
>
Message 8
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Here's my 2 cts.
Fourth visit to OSH. Last was 10 yrs ago. Liked it then , and liked
it this year also. Has something for everybody in aviation. What's
wrong with that?. Prices are fair. There's enough food, water stands,
and toilet facilities. If you can't find more of what's to like than
you have time to see even in one week then you're not looking.
Dick
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Ah, hell, one good head-on thunderstorm and that'll be that.
John Jessen (I've never been and am anxious to go. I'll bring my own
water.)
#40328
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:50 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
The fee charged to vendors will eventually cramp the style of Airventure.
Let's work with the estimated $2K to $5K fee. For this purpose, we'll use
$3K as the base. By the time vendor pays the fee, staffs the booth with a
minimum of 3 people for 10 days, including packing for the show and
demobilization, that's 30 man-days or 1.5 man-months. At $65,000 per year,
that's a cost of $8,125. Add in $125 per day for lodging and food per
person (3 x 10 x $125) we see living expenses are$3,750. Add in shipping,
mileage to OSH and misc. other costs, another $2k is easily consumed. So a
conservative total is right at $15,000 for a booth.
Of course, to recover that $15,000 cost, a vendor has to sell $45,000 to
$60,000 of product....just to break even. The product he sold to break even
means he has a few fewer customers out there, though there will be plenty of
no cost follow on questions, technical support and warranty costs. Right
now, the new EFISs are hot, but as that market shakes out, how many vendors
will be left. Certainly the cost of the Show will drive the small,
innovative, gizmo inventor away as he can never recover his costs. As a
result, we'll lose access to many of the "small" new ideas that makes OSH
and GA interesting. Soon enough, Honda Jet, Eclipse Jet, Joe Jet, et al
will be the main vendors since they are the ones with the margins that
justify attendance. It will start looking like a mini-me NBAA Convention.
Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the
activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do with
meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping tales,
telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to see some
select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little interest to
the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get together.
As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its business.
However, the question remains; why do they need a net of $50,000,000 in the
bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and what do they intend to use it
for? Seems to me its time to share the riches with the ones that made the
riches possible---EAA members and pilots.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007:
Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several
points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security
never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them
drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some?
Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year.
Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and
candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I
miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and start
smoking)
Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to pick
up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or
15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the
airshow routine when half the people had already left).
Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor spots...some
$2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little
vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to
past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth
their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors still
seem to be able to afford it...
I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of experience to
gauge against).
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Brian Meyette wrote:
>--> <brianpublic2@starband.net>
>
>I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all
have
>always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help.
It
>HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5
>years ago, when we first went.
>
>My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first
>time. It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign
>that said the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm
>
>The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the
other
>volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT,
and
>all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to
>meet and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so
>long, but haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen
>or Dave Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you.
>
>brian
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
>Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
>
>The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost
>to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put
>any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is
>any guide, most don't).
>
>It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to
>put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
>
>By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working
>for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
>
>I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space
>once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started
>at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead,
>visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly
>overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the
>evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn,
>after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13.
>
>I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems
>like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff.
>I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of
>those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled
>excitement just doesn't bother me much.
>
>It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation
>is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of
>ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else
>in the world.
>
>I can think of so many things that bug me more.
>
>Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm
>going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to
>bang on pots outside their hotel rooms.
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
>
>
>11:14 PM
>
>11:14 PM
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
On Jul 31, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
> Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the
> activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do
> with
> meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping
> tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to
> see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little
> interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get
> together.
Hmm. My main fun was attending workshops and talking to vendors. I
noticed that the number of aircraft vendors seemed a LOT lower than
the last time I was there (10 years ago). I presume there have been
a lot of shake-outs though -- a lot of companies going out of
business. But I haven't paid that much attention to the market since
I started the RV, as I'd made my decision...
> As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its
> business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of
> $50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and
> what do
> they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches
> with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots.
I read the tax filing that Bob Collins posted. EAA doesn't have
$50mil in the bank. They have assets in that general neighborhood,
but most of it appears to be real estate, if I'm remembering correctly.
-J
Message 11
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| Subject: | Looking for Flamer... |
Mark have you seen Killer Paint?
I don't know that much about them but their flames are real looking.
It's a simple technique w/o tape & patterns. All hand done with an hand
held cardboard pattern held off the surface about 8 inches. Plus several
different flame paint colors for depth.
There is an amazing RV-7 with this on the nose & leading edges.
Attached is a Robinson 44 that someone called in as an emergency for
"helicopter on fire" when the R44 pilot was landing to get a sandwich.
Check out:
http://www.killerpaint.com/gallery.html
Look under True Fire.
This guy is now famous but I am sure there are others around the US that
are now doing the same technique.
Robin
RV-4 Sold
RV-6A 375 Hours
RV-10 Getting Closer every day
Do Not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Mon 7/30/2007 11:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer...
I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame
graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars.
Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area.
Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans...
Thanks & do not archive
Mark
________________________________
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>
.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Dale,
Thanks for the info. I already have their wing root fairings - mostly installed.
Looks like more of the same high quality.
Do you know how far forward the slot could go and still be covered by this fairing
on your installation? Others with a three blade prop (I have an MT three
blade) indicate that the slot needs to be further forward in order to drop the
lower cowl enough to get it around the prop.
Thanks,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dale Ensing <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>Ralph,
>If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no
>need to make a plate to cover the slot.
>
>Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that I
>have on my 6A and would recommend.
>Dale Ensing
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass
>> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be
>> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates.
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
..."Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning.
I'm going to find
out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to bang on pots
outside
their hotel rooms." - Bob Collins
Right on, Bob! Call me and we'll have a "pot" band!
Ken Brooks
RV-8 N1903P
Forever Finishing
Message 14
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| Subject: | I have no EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
The truckers were nothin' !! Coleman lanterns burning through half the night.
Clicking keyboards, under the breath mumbling and snickering, just to name a
couple of the anti-social behaviors exibited. A warning... Anyone camping near
the Colllin's tent at future Airventures, you are hereby warned!
We were warned... But alas payed no heed to the warning.
And a great time was had by all!!!
Thank You Bob! I haven't had that much fun for that cheap since they tore out
the quarter crap tables in the Riverside Casino in Reno, Nevada back in '76 (Before
non-airplane people dicovered Air Racing)
Oh yeah.. The guys with the shirts. Poor taste, what were they thinking?
Chris Stone
Back home in Newberg, OR
Had a ball! No complaints, And I paln on doing it all again!
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>Sent: Jul 30, 2007 2:55 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
>
>jpl(at)showpage.org wrote:
>> But your comment about the truckers and their air horns sort of hits the nail
squarely on the head. If we're going to put up with truckers hitting air
horns, then $19 a day for camping is high.
>>
>> I think the discussion is (for me) over about $50 -- 25% of what I
>> gave the EAA last Wednesday. My original comment wasn't "OMG it's
>> WAY too expensive." Just a little high, that's all.
>>
>>
>
>
>I'm trying to figure out what camping fee would've made me lose less sleep. (g)
>
>Seriously, I consider it a fault of the Oshkosh police department and Wisconsin
State patrol that a bunch of gap-toothed morons got to disturb the peace with
impunity.
>
> By the way, if you want to beat the EAA at its own game, stake out a campsite
that you would feel comfortable with. The 20 x 30 regulation was in place years
ago when camping units weren't so big. I don't think anybody ever checks. Want
a 50 foot buffer? Stake it out.
>
>As for the kids giggling and folks talking all hours of the night. I'm afraid
I'm at least partially guilty, although I did try to see people as they set up
near me and first thing I said was, "let me explain to you what you're getting
yourself into here..."
>
>BTW, I heard the Super 8 had rooms as late as Saturday night. What's up with THAT?
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126462#126462
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Looking for Flamer... |
Guys of Mike's caliber are usually in high demand and their prices will reflect
that. Look around locally and ask at art supply houses, tech schools, and
the like. There is a good chance there is someone nearby that is very talented
and will work cheap in order to build their portfolio. Around me a friend of
a friend does airbrush work that would blow you away. And he usually does it
very cheap just because he enjoys doing it!
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer...
Mark have you seen Killer Paint?
I don't know that much about them but their flames are real looking.
It's a simple technique w/o tape & patterns. All hand done with an hand held cardboard
pattern held off the surface about 8 inches. Plus several different flame
paint colors for depth.
There is an amazing RV-7 with this on the nose & leading edges.
Attached is a Robinson 44 that someone called in as an emergency for "helicopter
on fire" when the R44 pilot was landing to get a sandwich.
Check out:
http://www.killerpaint.com/gallery.html
Look under True Fire.
This guy is now famous but I am sure there are others around the US that are now
doing the same technique.
Robin
RV-4 Sold
RV-6A 375 Hours
RV-10 Getting Closer every day
Do Not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Mon 7/30/2007 11:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer...
I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame graphics
such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars. Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky
area.
Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans...
Thanks & do not archive
Mark
________________________________
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> .
Message 16
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| Subject: | re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
Bob Collins wrote:
But it's impossible for me to believe that at something as diverse as
AirVenture,
folks who are really interested in getting something out of it for the money
they put into it, don't get something significant out of it.
In the big scheme of thing, the cost of AirVenture is chicken feed.
But here's the thing. In this country right now, we insist not only that
*our*
individual tastes be met, we insist that other individual tastes NOT be met.
It's
ludicrous and it's why homebulders don't like warbirds who don't like
seaplane
people who don't like ultralight people who don't like Cirrus owners who
don't like RV owners.
Good Lord, AirVenture is un-flippin' believable in terms of the wide range
of interests
represented therein. People who don't like it aren't really trying that
hard to find their own interests, or are working too hard to find reasons to
be unsatisfied.
Hi Bob,
Nice words and well put. I've been to Oshkosh twice and had a great time
(I'm waiting now to fly my own plane in). I believe you hit the issue when
you comment on how people find what they are looking for; one can choose to
look for good, adventure, interesting people and things; or they can choose
to look for things wrong, reasons not to enjoy, etc. I'll agree that some
events may be biased to the negative but I'd argue Oshkosh is definitely
biased toward the positive in a huge way.
Larry E. James
Bellevue, WA
Super Decathlon
Harmon Rocket
Message 17
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| Subject: | Looking for Flamer... |
For best paint, including graphics, be it scenes or flames, check with
motorcycle shops. There is a LOT of custom work done and most don't
have "airplane prices".
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer...
--> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Guys of Mike's caliber are usually in high demand and their prices
will reflect that. Look around locally and ask at art supply houses,
tech schools, and the like. There is a good chance there is someone
nearby that is very talented and will work cheap in order to build their
portfolio. Around me a friend of a friend does airbrush work that would
blow you away. And he usually does it very cheap just because he enjoys
doing it!
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer...
Mark have you seen Killer Paint?
I don't know that much about them but their flames are real looking.
It's a simple technique w/o tape & patterns. All hand done with an hand
held cardboard pattern held off the surface about 8 inches. Plus several
different flame paint colors for depth. There is an amazing RV-7 with
this on the nose & leading edges. Attached is a Robinson 44 that someone
called in as an emergency for "helicopter on fire" when the R44 pilot
was landing to get a sandwich.
Check out:
http://www.killerpaint.com/gallery.html
Look under True Fire.
This guy is now famous but I am sure there are others around the US that
are now doing the same technique.
Robin
RV-4 Sold
RV-6A 375 Hours
RV-10 Getting Closer every day
Do Not Archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Mon 7/30/2007 11:35 PM
Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer...
I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame
graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars.
Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area.
Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans...
Thanks & do not archive
Mark
________________________________
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>
.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed
fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of
dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part
of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?
Jim Bowen
Rv-8
_________________________________________________________________
Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one
place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote:
> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed
> fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of
> dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part
> of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?
>
> Jim Bowen
> Rv-8
>
It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000.
Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies
into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary.
His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of
hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.
But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil
a year organization.
-J
On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it
> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be
> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a
> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what
> we already have?
>
> Jim Bowen
> Rv-8
Message 21
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| Subject: | Cowl Intake plugs |
While at Oshkosh I saw several RV's with red plugs that go in the cowl
intakes. Where can a person get these for an RV-6?
Thanks
Tim
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Ralph,
On my cowl, I measured 9 inches from the from the front edge of the
fiberglass mounting flair of the top intersection fairing to the front edge
of the carb air intake port. I did this with a flexible measureing stick on
the curve of the cowl. Considering there may be some differences in the air
scoop placement as mine was not attached to the cowl when I got it, you may
want to give it a least 10 inches and see if that gets you enough slot to
get the cowl off with the 3 blade prop.
Dale
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
> Dale,
>
> Thanks for the info. I already have their wing root fairings - mostly
> installed. Looks like more of the same high quality.
>
> Do you know how far forward the slot could go and still be covered by this
> fairing on your installation? Others with a three blade prop (I have an
> MT three blade) indicate that the slot needs to be further forward in
> order to drop the lower cowl enough to get it around the prop.
>
> Thanks,
> Ralph
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Dale Ensing <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>>
>>
>>Ralph,
>>If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no
>>need to make a plate to cover the slot.
>>
>>Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that
>>I
>>have on my 6A and would recommend.
>>Dale Ensing
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>>
>>
>>> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass
>>> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be
>>> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates.
>>>
>>> Ralph
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Cowl Intake plugs |
Van's Aircraft
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1185911053-284-29
1&browse=airframe&product=cowl_plugs
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Bryan
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs
While at Oshkosh I saw several RV's with red plugs that go in the cowl
intakes. Where can a person get these for an RV-6?
Thanks
Tim
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two
areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does
that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue
on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his
father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers,
sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are
they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough?
Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a
publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held
one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the
beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's
compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its
just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem.
Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know!
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of
hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.
But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil
a year organization.
-J
On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it
> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be
> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a
> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what
> we already have?
>
> Jim Bowen
> Rv-8
Message 25
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| Subject: | Cowl Intake plugs |
Thanks Dale and Paul,
I hadn't realized that Van's had these as I had not seen them. I will order
mine shortly.
Tim
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs
Van's Aircraft
http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1185911053-284-291
<http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1185911053-284-291&br
owse=airframe&product=cowl_plugs> &browse=airframe&product=cowl_plugs
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Bryan <mailto:n616tb@btsapps.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs
While at Oshkosh I saw several RV's with red plugs that go in the cowl
intakes. Where can a person get these for an RV-6?
Thanks
Tim
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation |
Thanks a bunch!
-----Original Message-----
>From: Dale Ensing <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 3:43 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>
>Ralph,
>On my cowl, I measured 9 inches from the from the front edge of the
>fiberglass mounting flair of the top intersection fairing to the front edge
>of the carb air intake port. I did this with a flexible measureing stick on
>the curve of the cowl. Considering there may be some differences in the air
>scoop placement as mine was not attached to the cowl when I got it, you may
>want to give it a least 10 inches and see if that gets you enough slot to
>get the cowl off with the 3 blade prop.
>Dale
>.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:04 AM
>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>
>
>>
>> Dale,
>>
>> Thanks for the info. I already have their wing root fairings - mostly
>> installed. Looks like more of the same high quality.
>>
>> Do you know how far forward the slot could go and still be covered by this
>> fairing on your installation? Others with a three blade prop (I have an
>> MT three blade) indicate that the slot needs to be further forward in
>> order to drop the lower cowl enough to get it around the prop.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ralph
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Dale Ensing <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>>>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM
>>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>>>
>>>
>>>Ralph,
>>>If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no
>>>need to make a plate to cover the slot.
>>>
>>>Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that
>>>I
>>>have on my 6A and would recommend.
>>>Dale Ensing
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM
>>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation
>>>
>>>
>>>> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass
>>>> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be
>>>> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates.
>>>>
>>>> Ralph
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Haven't looked, but is this a non-profit or a not-for-profit. The latter
simply has to show a zero profit. How they got there could be any number of
ways, including salaries. John Jessen
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two
areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does that
mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue on an
organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his father do for
$160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers, sons, daughters and
other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are they earning their keep
or just feeding at the trough?
Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a
publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held one.
It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the beneficiaries of this
non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's compensation, lock, stock and barrel,
that seems reasonable. If its just he iceberg showing above the water, then
there could be a problem.
Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know!
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of hidden
benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.
But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil a year
organization.
-J
On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed
> fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large
> amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing,
> but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?
>
> Jim Bowen
> Rv-8
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
There might be a brother on the payroll somewhere. I don't really care. But in
terms of significant salary and jobs, a lot of that is answered on the 990, the
link to which I posted yesterday.
I presume that deferred compensation includes 403Bs and, again, that's all listed
there on the form.
I presume also that people will consider the salary too much but it might be worth
asking what the president does to earn it.
Poberezny. Well, he started it. The EAA brand belongs to him. As with any business,
a significant asset is the goodwill. Guess who's responsible for that significant
asset. Damn right he should get a piece of the action.
Still, I'm not really sure what the complaint is here. $19 a night to camp... $22
buck to get into the grounds. Seriously. What's the big flippin' deal here?
That it's too much?
I can think of a million things associated with this hobby of mine that is more
out of whack with "real people."
And, yeah, Garmin, I'm talking about you. (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126693#126693
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Bob,
I agree that Garmin and Jeppesen hold a "special" place in our
hearts....real special. There isn't a flippin' problem with EAA--some
are just wondering why they are setting on $50,000,000 and what they
intend to do with it? How many years of NOT CHARGING EXPERIMENTAL
AIRCRAFT OWNERS for registering would the 50 mil cover? Quite a few I
would think.
Yes, Proberenzy may have been instrumental in developing the brand, but
not everyone is pleased with the direction the brand is headed--he's
responsible for that too. And to say he owns the franchise may be a bit
broad. Or maybe its a matter of "Proberenzy's Company" makin' so much
money that he doesn't give a flip about those dues payin' experimental
aircraft builders and owners that was the bedrock foundation of the EAA.
I think we all agree, AirVenture is expensive enough, but not
necessarily outrageously so. No one cares, other than symbolically,
whether the shuttle is 50-cents or not. The real question here is 'why
are they setting on $50,000,000 and what are they going to do with it?'
If their only goal is to turn $50,000,000 into $70,000,000, then that's
a problem? Is there truly mission to serve the EAA community...or is
that a cover to just make more money?
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:16 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
There might be a brother on the payroll somewhere. I don't really care.
But in terms of significant salary and jobs, a lot of that is answered
on the 990, the link to which I posted yesterday.
I presume that deferred compensation includes 403Bs and, again, that's
all listed there on the form.
I presume also that people will consider the salary too much but it
might be worth asking what the president does to earn it.
Poberezny. Well, he started it. The EAA brand belongs to him. As with
any business, a significant asset is the goodwill. Guess who's
responsible for that significant asset. Damn right he should get a piece
of the action.
Still, I'm not really sure what the complaint is here. $19 a night to
camp... $22 buck to get into the grounds. Seriously. What's the big
flippin' deal here? That it's too much?
I can think of a million things associated with this hobby of mine that
is more out of whack with "real people."
And, yeah, Garmin, I'm talking about you. (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126693#126693
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote:
> are just wondering why they are setting on $50,000,000 and what they
> intend to do with it? How many years of NOT CHARGING EXPERIMENTAL
> AIRCRAFT OWNERS for registering would the 50 mil cover? Quite a few I
> would think.
If they are sitting on $50 million, I would hope they're doing so as an endowment,
which would be a very, very prudent thing to do. Ideally, real ideally, you
want any return on assets -- i.e. interest -- to cover your operating expenses
so you don't have to dip into the endowment (kind of like what we all want
our IRAs to do).
You know, I was at the "surviving force landings" forum (which I wrote about here
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2007/07/surviving-forced-landings.html
and the guy did a survey. "How many people are under 70?" A lot of hands, but not
all, went up. "Under 60?" Still the majority of hands up.
"Under 50?" A minority of hands, but still a lot
"40?" Maybe a dozen, maybe two dozen
"30?" Maybe 6
"20?" Two.
That may have been the most eye-opening moment for me at Oshkosh for it crystalized
the coming crisis in general aviation. I think EAA is in that same situation,
of course, so if there is a pot of money that could help the organization
weather the up-and-down, year-to-year problems I see in *my* non-profit (where
it's like they just discover the budget process every March), I think that's
all to the good.
I really don't think we're looking at the United Way scandal here.
Also, keep in mind the EAA museum is now free, year round, for EAA members, so
clearly there's been an effort to give breaks to the members.
I get a pretty good magazine -- yeah, I know, that's a separate issue for a lot
of folks who seem to want to get mimeographed, stapled newsletters in the mail
again (g) -- for $40.
Besides, did you walk down the 24 hour generator area at Oshkosh? Where's the evidence
THOSE folks are hurting?
Now maybe if we're going to start an EAA profit-sharing plan, we start with people
who camp in tents!!!!
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126707#126707
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
I suppose some of the money they need goes to pay Tom. I see his salary
at something like $418,000 per year as President (pretty good pay for a
non-profit organization!!!). All other officers (VP, Sec. and Treas.)
get $0 per year. All this is according to my cursory look at the link
to their tax return that somebody posted here. Oh well, I primarily use
Oshkosh as a way to get together with long distance friends too...
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
>The fee charged to vendors will eventually cramp the style of
>Airventure. Let's work with the estimated $2K to $5K fee. For this
>purpose, we'll use $3K as the base. By the time vendor pays the fee,
>staffs the booth with a minimum of 3 people for 10 days, including
>packing for the show and demobilization, that's 30 man-days or 1.5
>man-months. At $65,000 per year, that's a cost of $8,125. Add in $125
>per day for lodging and food per person (3 x 10 x $125) we see living
>expenses are$3,750. Add in shipping, mileage to OSH and misc. other
>costs, another $2k is easily consumed. So a conservative total is right
>at $15,000 for a booth.
>
>Of course, to recover that $15,000 cost, a vendor has to sell $45,000 to
>$60,000 of product....just to break even. The product he sold to break
>even means he has a few fewer customers out there, though there will be
>plenty of no cost follow on questions, technical support and warranty
>costs. Right now, the new EFISs are hot, but as that market shakes out,
>how many vendors will be left. Certainly the cost of the Show will
>drive the small, innovative, gizmo inventor away as he can never recover
>his costs. As a result, we'll lose access to many of the "small" new
>ideas that makes OSH and GA interesting. Soon enough, Honda Jet,
>Eclipse Jet, Joe Jet, et al will be the main vendors since they are the
>ones with the margins that justify attendance. It will start looking
>like a mini-me NBAA Convention.
>
>Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the
>activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do with
>meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping
>tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to
>see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little
>interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get
>together.
>
>As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its
>business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of
>$50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and what do
>they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches
>with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots.
>
>Chuck Jensen
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:40 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>
>
>
>My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007:
>
>Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several
>points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security
>
>never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them
>drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some?
>
>Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year.
>
>Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and
>candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I
>
>miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and
>start smoking)
>
>Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to
>pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or
>15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the
>
>airshow routine when half the people had already left).
>
>Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor
>spots...some $2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little
>
>vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to
>
>past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth
>their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors
>still seem to be able to afford it...
>
>I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of
>experience to gauge against).
>
>Scott
>http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
>Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
>Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
>
>
>Brian Meyette wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> <brianpublic2@starband.net>
>>
>>I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all
>>
>>
>have
>
>
>>always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help.
>>
>>
>It
>
>
>>HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5
>>years ago, when we first went.
>>
>>My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first
>>time. It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>that said the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm
>>
>>The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the
>>
>>
>other
>
>
>>volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT,
>>
>>
>and
>
>
>>all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>meet and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so
>>long, but haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen
>>or Dave Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you.
>>
>>brian
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
>>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh
>>
>>
>>Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone.
>>
>>The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost
>>to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>any guide, most don't).
>>
>>It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to
>>put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals.
>>
>>By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working
>>for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free.
>>
>>I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space
>>once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started
>>at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead,
>>visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly
>>overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the
>>evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn,
>>after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13.
>>
>>I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems
>>like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff.
>>I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of
>>those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled
>>excitement just doesn't bother me much.
>>
>>It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation
>>is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of
>>ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>in the world.
>>
>>I can think of so many things that bug me more.
>>
>>Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm
>>going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to
>>bang on pots outside their hotel rooms.
>>
>>--------
>>Bob Collins
>>St. Paul, Minn.
>>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>11:14 PM
>>
>>11:14 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Bob Collins wrote:
>
> Now maybe if we're going to start an EAA profit-sharing plan, we
> start with people who camp in tents!!!!
Yes! The EAA could donate to my "swap out an RV-6A kit for an RV-7A
kit" fund.
-J
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
According to the tax form, Paul gets $78,000 and Tom gets about
$418,000. $418K seems pretty Steep for the President of a NON-PROFIT
place. For a Fortune 500 company, it would be small... do not archive
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Bob Collins wrote:
>
>
>jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed
>>fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of
>>dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part
>>of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?
>>
>>Jim Bowen
>>Rv-8
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000.
Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies
into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary.
>
>His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off.
>
>--------
>Bob Collins
>St. Paul, Minn.
>RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
OK, THIS part I find revealing:
"Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their
companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary."
So firemen are the guys we pay year after year to let our buildings burn
down? Lifeguards are the ones we pay to let our kids drown? No, they are the
ones we hire to try to prevent the bad things from happening.
The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to
take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a
dying company. Like any high risk job or investment, the rewards are
commensurate with the risk. A very few might deserve your smear, but the
broad brush you use to paint the fine detail here might as well be a paint
roller.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:43 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote:
> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed
> fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts
of
> dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't
part
> of promoting aviation protecting what we already have?
>
> Jim Bowen
> Rv-8
>
It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about
$450,000. Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their
companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary.
His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
See
http://www.abbott-langer.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Summary.ShowSummary&PID=59
Here is a chart from the above webpage...
Table 1: Random list of positions (representing each major function
group [for non profit orgs]) out of a total 300 positions included in
the report.
Position Total compensation*
2006 2007
Chief Executive Officer $212,895 $219,649
Chief Operating Officer $154,382 $159,062
Top Legal Officer $146,760 $149,892
Top Administrative Officer $134,166 $137,149
Top Financial Officer $132,548 $136,870
Engineering Manager $85,341 $86,464
Systems & Programming Manager $76,805 $77,834
Marketing Director $73,427 $74,440
Financial Analysis Manager $71,648 $72,621
Art Director $66,432 $67,097
Librarian Head $62,604 $63,427
Manager Retail Store $57,120 $58,538
Employee Training Supervisor $56,037 $56,745
Historic Sites Administrator $51,827 $52,409
Psychiatrist $163,762 $166,424
General Practitioner $129,761 $130,867
Fundraising Director $101,117 $104,196
Psychologist $59,617 $60,429
Audiologist $55,747 $56,649
Systems Analyst Lead $68,640 $69,543
Lead Computer Programmer $67,722 $68,629
Systems Analyst $53,435 $54,106
Applications Programmer $52,527 $53,205
LAN/WAN Administrator $49,493 $50,129
Attorney Corporate $74,426 $75,472
Computer System Hardware Analyst $63,875 $64,708
Producer $59,838 $60,697
Labor Relations Specialist $54,564 $55,280
Human Resources Advisor $54,380 $55,056
Sales Product Manager $71,125 $72,067
Sales Area Manager $58,501 $59,315
Fundraiser $51,885 $52,512
Sales Representative (General) $40,693 $41,275
Membership Solicitor $35,989 $36,500
Secretary to CEO $44,254 $44,824
Grant Coordinator $41,186 $41,788
Museum Exhibit Designer $37,767 $38,314
Interpreter $36,323 $36,835
Administrative Assistant $34,133 $34,638
Re-Recording Mixer $33,923 $34,450
Clay Modeler $33,592 $34,097
Still Photographer $33,561 $34,069
Scheduler Museums $30,902 $31,319
Computer Operator $30,731 $31,153
* Includes base annual salary, plus all cash bonuses and/or cash profit
sharing.
Source: "(Summary of All Nonprofits - 2007" " (Summary of All Nonprofits
- 2006, Abbott, Langer Association Surveys
<http://www.abbott-langer.com/> 1725 I Street NW, Suite 300, Washington,
DC 20006 USA Telephone: (877) 210-6563, Fax: (877) 239-2457 E-Mail:
info@abbott-langer.com http://www.abbott-langer.com
<http://www.abbott-langer.com/>
do not archive
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Joseph Larson wrote:
>
> Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of
> hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.
>
> But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil
> a year organization.
>
> -J
>
> On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
>>
>> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it
>> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be
>> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a
>> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we
>> already have?
>>
>> Jim Bowen
>> Rv-8
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
acepilot(at)bloomer.net wrote:
> I suppose some of the money they need goes to pay Tom. I see his salary
> at something like $418,000 per year as President (pretty good pay for a
> non-profit organization!!!).
Not too unusual, and kinda low at that for a national non profit. Much of the work
of a boss of a non-profit is raising money. It's not like they have some product
or widget to put on the market and sit back and rake in the cash. It's
a lot of work.
The other thing is the guy is making a living and it's not unusual to pay someone
appropriately for the marketplace.
Poberezny HAS done a good job growing the organization. Given that out here, Northwest
Airlines paid their CEO $26 million to plunge the airline into bankruptcy
(evidently THAT'S a talent that can't be entrusted to just ANY incompetent
boob), and when you look at all of the companies out there paying millions and
millions of dollars and are economic basket cases, $418,000 isn't too bad.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126734#126734
Message 37
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| Subject: | Trade for F-1 Rocket or RV-8 |
Folks -
Change of circumstances mean that a pristine straight-tail Cessna
(www.greatusermanuals.com/c175) and an AirCam (912S engines, basic
panel and avionics, 200 SNEW, $78,000) are looking for good homes.
Both aircraft are in Prescott, Arizona, but I'm moving in a few weeks
and would like to find them new homes promptly.
As for me, I'll be looking to rejoin the yank and bank crowd with an
F-1 Rocket, preferably the Evo wing, or maybe an RV-8 with a constant
speed prop. I'm not looking for an over-equipped, pricey aircraft,
but something that's properly and skillfully built -- pride of
ownership, as they say in real estate. Other possibilities are a
flying aircraft but without the fancy panel and super-tuned engine
(could reduce your liability), or a kit that's well along.
I'm moving to Cedar Rapids, IA, to work at RockwellCollins. They've
got hundreds of openings for engineers, but if you know of somebody
who's interested, please let me know before they apply so that I can
get credit$.
thanks
Ed Wischmeyer
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Terry Watson wrote:
> The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to
> take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a
> dying company.
You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. I was thinking specifically of NWA CEO
Doug Steenland when I wrote that.
Yes, I would put him in the category of "slobs." All he's done is broken unions,
ruined families, stranded passengers, and -- oh yeah -- accepted the $26 million
dollars for the great job he did running his company into bankruptcy.
Sorry. No sale.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126737#126737
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
The one thing that concerns me is that as President, Tom gets paid well
for a position listed as 40+ hours a week and every other officer gets
$0 and is listed as <10 hours a week. Does Tom do EVERYTHING himself?
Of course, there are paid employees, but not other paid officers. Paul
is Chairman of the Board (listed as about $78K, not $160K). do not archive
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
>I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two
>areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does
>that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue
>on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his
>father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers,
>sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are
>they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough?
>
>Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a
>publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held
>one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the
>beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's
>compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its
>just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem.
>Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know!
>
>Chuck Jensen
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
>
>
>
>Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of
>hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.
>
>But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil
>a year organization.
>
>-J
>
>On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it
>>seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be
>>large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a
>>good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what
>>we already have?
>>
>>Jim Bowen
>>Rv-8
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
I agree, the vendors are thinning out but the EAA has a slick marketing
scheme going. If you look close at all the areas where there was a vendo
r last year the EAA put up tents to sell shirts, caps, etc. It appears
to the naked eye that the place is full. I think I counted about a half
dozen tents, buildings or other cubbyholes where the EAA was selling thi
er merchandise. That tactic will only drive up the prices on next years
vendors. That Tom P is pretty slick..!!!
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org> wrote:
On Jul 31, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote:
>
> Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the
> activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do
> with
> meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping
> tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to
> see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little
> interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get
> together.
Hmm. My main fun was attending workshops and talking to vendors. I
noticed that the number of aircraft vendors seemed a LOT lower than
the last time I was there (10 years ago). I presume there have been
a lot of shake-outs though -- a lot of companies going out of
business. But I haven't paid that much attention to the market since
I started the RV, as I'd made my decision...
> As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its
> business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of
> $50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and
> what do
> they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches
> with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots.
I read the tax filing that Bob Collins posted. EAA doesn't have
$50mil in the bank. They have assets in that general neighborhood,
but most of it appears to be real estate, if I'm remembering correctly.
-J
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P>I agree, the vendors are thinning out but the EAA has a slick m
arketing scheme going. If you look close at all the areas where the
re was a vendor last year the EAA put up tents to sell shirts, caps, etc
. It appears to the naked eye that the place is full. I think I co
unted about a half dozen tents, buildings or other cubbyholes where the
EAA was selling thier merchandise. That tactic will only drive up the pr
ices on next years vendors. That Tom P is pretty slick..!!!</P>
<P>do not archive<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>&nbs
p;wrote:<BR>--> RV-List message posted by: J
oseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org><BR><BR><BR>On Jul&n
bsp;31, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Jensen&nbs
p;wrote:<BR><BR>><BR>> Finally, if you look&nb
sp;at the comments posted, the vast majori
ty of the<BR>> activities that attendees&nbs
p;found most valuable and valued had to&nb
sp;do <BR>> with<BR>> meeting up wi
th other pilots, ogling each other's plane
s, swapping<BR>> tales, telling stories, dri
nking refreshments. Other than a chance&n
bsp;to<BR>> see some select vendors, what&nb
sp;AirVenture has morphed into holds little<BR>
> interest to the EAA folks, other 
;than its an opportunity to get<BR>> to
gether.<BR><BR>Hmm. My main fun was atten
ding workshops and talking to vendors. &nb
sp;I <BR>noticed that the number of
aircraft vendors seemed a LOT lower than&n
bsp; <BR>the last time I was there (1
0 years ago). I presume there have&n
bsp;been <BR>a lot of shake-outs though&n
bsp;-- a lot of companies going out o
f <BR>business. But I haven't paid&
nbsp;that much attention to the market sin
ce <BR>I started the RV, as I'd 
;made my decision...<BR><BR>> As a non-profi
t, EAA needs some financial buffer to 
;conduct its<BR>> business. However, the&nb
sp;question remains; why do they need a&nb
sp;net of<BR>> $50,000,000 in the bank
($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and &n
bsp;<BR>> what do<BR>> they intend to&nbs
p;use it for? Seems to me its t
ime to share the riches<BR>> with the&n
bsp;ones that made the riches possible---EAA&nb
sp;members and pilots.<BR><BR>I read the tax&nb
sp;filing that Bob Collins posted. EAA&nb
sp;doesn't have <BR>$50mil in the bank.&n
bsp; They have assets in that general 
;neighborhood, <BR>but most of it appears
to be real estate, if I'm rememberin
========================
========================
;the Matronics List Features Navigator to
Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, 
========================
sp; -&n
sp;great content now also available via th
========================
===================<BR></P>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
If we cut his salary in half, we could pass the savings along to all the EAA members.
Then it'd only cost $21.95 to get into AirVenture. (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126746#126746
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990 for AOPA
hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation looks to be about
$590,000.
If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until after
they win the user fee battle for us? (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126754#126754
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
I assume "Sorry. No Sale." Means you continue to use that paint roller to
describe all CEO's whose companies go under, not just the NWA CEO?
It's one thing to excoriate someone who takes advantage of a bad situation
for personal profit as I presume you think Mr. Steenland did. It is another
thing entirely to smear everyone who is willing to take on a difficult,
often impossible job with the same moral condemnation.
Don't you see the difference?
I'm sure it is really just a difference of perspective. I see business as
the institution that brings me virtually all of the material and much of the
non-material goods and services that makes my very good life possible, and I
appreciate the risk involved. Some see it as just institutionalized greed.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
Terry Watson wrote:
> The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to
> take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save
a
> dying company.
You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. I was thinking specifically of NWA
CEO Doug Steenland when I wrote that.
Yes, I would put him in the category of "slobs." All he's done is broken
unions, ruined families, stranded passengers, and -- oh yeah -- accepted the
$26 million dollars for the great job he did running his company into
bankruptcy.
Sorry. No sale.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126737#126737
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh |
n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote:
> I agree, the vendors are thinning out but the EAA has a slick marketing scheme
going.
I thought the same thing last year when they actually did the same thing. Then
I found out from a prominent vendor who hasn't been able to get into Oshkosh that
there's actually a waiting list. He got in this year.
There are people waiting to take the space of those who go away. SteinAir, for
example, moved into a larger space that, presumably, had been vacated. But his
old space was taken.
VerticalPower, a company that didn't even exist last year (at least from our end)
got a spot this year.
I talked to as many people as I could this year and they all said business was
good and the attendance was strong.
I didn't spend ANY time looking at airplanes for sale so it wouldn't surprise me
if there were fewer of those folks. I can't, for the life of me, figure out
how some of those companies stay in business.
OTOH, you guys probably heard the same thing I did. On the first day of the show,
Cessna had 300+ orders for their LSA by noon (!!!). So someone's got some money
out there.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126757#126757
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Terry Watson wrote:
> I assume "Sorry. No Sale." Means you continue to use that paint roller to
> describe all CEO's whose companies go under, not just the NWA CEO?
>
Please take a moment to reread the sentence because you've badly misinterpreted
the sentence.
"Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into
bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary."
None of the CEOs you passionately -- and appropriately defend -- fit that category.
>
> It's one thing to excoriate someone who takes advantage of a bad situation for
personal profit as I presume you think Mr. Steenland did. It is another thing
entirely to smear everyone who is willing to take on a difficult, often impossible
job with the same moral condemnation.
>
And, again, the characterization was referencing those CEOS who take advantage
of bad situations -- or even create them -- for personal profit. There was nothing
in the original sentence that referred to any other CEOs, and so I don't
feel compelled to defend the assertion I never made.
I don't view business as institutional greed. But just as I know a good CEO when
I see one, I know what a scumbag looks like too.
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126767#126767
Message 46
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| Subject: | For Sale: Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/One w/ Dual Displays |
I have decided to sell my blue mountain avionics EFIS/One G3 and upgrade
to a G4 version. This unit has never been installed or flown in an
airplane. It was one of their demo units for a trade show and offered
to me at a small discount when I purchased it in January 2006. I have
been playing with it on the bench quite a few times and it works
perfectly. I can power up the unit and send detailed pictures to anyone
seriously interested in purchasing this unit.
Details:
* Generation 3 gold box
* Connections from the box have been rotated (by blue mountain avionics)
for rear exit for easier installation in most aircraft
* Dual Screens for pilot and co-pilot
* Magnetometer
* Programming Keyboard
* Analog 3 Card for 16 additional sensors (allows engine monitor
functions for 6 or more cylinders)
* One year Nav Data updates
* All documentation, wiring, GPS antenna, etc that came from the factory
I can deliver this unit in a reasonable flying distance from SE
Michigan.
Cost New in 2006:
EFIS/One $14,975
Dual Display $ 1,895
Analog 3 card $ 795
Nav Data 1 year $ 395
Total New in 1996 = $18,060
Asking price is $9,995
If you like the blue mountain avionics products, you won't be
disappointed. This is a great opportunity to get a nice system for
almost half price!
Please e-mail or call with questions.
Thanks
-Mike Kraus
517-414-4070
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for Flamer... |
In a message dated 7/31/2007 10:10:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
robin1@mrmoisture.com writes:
Mark have you seen Killer Paint?
Hi Robin- thanks for the reply- I saw the black -6 last year at OSH and the
flames was quite impressive, but not what I'm looking for- I'd like to find
someone to layout a more "traditional" flame scheme without airbrushing- mostly
long thin flames in solid colors overlapping each other...
Mark do not archive
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
The only position I didn't see was:
Aircraft owner -21,000 -22,900
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
See
http://www.abbott-langer.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Summary.ShowSummary&PI
D=59
Here is a chart from the above webpage...
Table 1: Random list of positions (representing each major function
group [for non profit orgs]) out of a total 300 positions included in
the report.
Position Total compensation*
2006 2007
Chief Executive Officer $212,895 $219,649
Chief Operating Officer $154,382 $159,062
Top Legal Officer $146,760 $149,892
Top Administrative Officer $134,166 $137,149
Top Financial Officer $132,548 $136,870
Engineering Manager $85,341 $86,464
Systems & Programming Manager $76,805 $77,834
Marketing Director $73,427 $74,440
Financial Analysis Manager $71,648 $72,621
Art Director $66,432 $67,097
Librarian Head $62,604 $63,427
Manager Retail Store $57,120 $58,538
Employee Training Supervisor $56,037 $56,745
Historic Sites Administrator $51,827 $52,409
Psychiatrist $163,762 $166,424
General Practitioner $129,761 $130,867
Fundraising Director $101,117 $104,196
Psychologist $59,617 $60,429
Audiologist $55,747 $56,649
Systems Analyst Lead $68,640 $69,543
Lead Computer Programmer $67,722 $68,629
Systems Analyst $53,435 $54,106
Applications Programmer $52,527 $53,205
LAN/WAN Administrator $49,493 $50,129
Attorney Corporate $74,426 $75,472
Computer System Hardware Analyst $63,875 $64,708
Producer $59,838 $60,697
Labor Relations Specialist $54,564 $55,280
Human Resources Advisor $54,380 $55,056
Sales Product Manager $71,125 $72,067
Sales Area Manager $58,501 $59,315
Fundraiser $51,885 $52,512
Sales Representative (General) $40,693 $41,275
Membership Solicitor $35,989 $36,500
Secretary to CEO $44,254 $44,824
Grant Coordinator $41,186 $41,788
Museum Exhibit Designer $37,767 $38,314
Interpreter $36,323 $36,835
Administrative Assistant $34,133 $34,638
Re-Recording Mixer $33,923 $34,450
Clay Modeler $33,592 $34,097
Still Photographer $33,561 $34,069
Scheduler Museums $30,902 $31,319
Computer Operator $30,731 $31,153
* Includes base annual salary, plus all cash bonuses and/or cash profit
sharing.
Source: "(Summary of All Nonprofits - 2007" " (Summary of All Nonprofits
- 2006, Abbott, Langer Association Surveys
<http://www.abbott-langer.com/> 1725 I Street NW, Suite 300, Washington,
DC 20006 USA Telephone: (877) 210-6563, Fax: (877) 239-2457 E-Mail:
info@abbott-langer.com http://www.abbott-langer.com
<http://www.abbott-langer.com/>
do not archive
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)
Joseph Larson wrote:
>
> Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of
> hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun
airplanes.
>
> But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil
> a year organization.
>
> -J
>
> On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
>>
>> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it
>> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be
>> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a
>> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we
>> already have?
>>
>> Jim Bowen
>> Rv-8
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Bob, I'm all for letting them do the heavy lifting on the User Fee issue
before we draw-n-quarter them--the problem is Boyer's the only one
that's been doing much lifting. Prober's been too busy praising the
retiring FAA Skirt.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990
for AOPA hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation
looks to be about $590,000.
If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until
after they win the user fee battle for us? (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126754#126754
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
Mentioning Tom's father, Paul, reminded me of the "Sport Aviation
Association" which was a try by Paul to get back to the experimental part of
the aviation family.
As I recall his last letter to members noted a lack of significant interest
for him to continue. Perhaps if more of us had joined in, we would have been
be happier with what Paul was offering.
Do not archive.
Charlie Ennis
RV-6A
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
I certainly do not know why there is so much anger at EAA. The $50 million is Real
Estate, not cash. It is a voluntary organization.
My experience is that EAA has assisted me much more then AOPA. I was told more
than once that EAA is much more effective working behind the scenes and making
polite while Boyer is showboating and confrontational. It probably takes
both to some extent. As for complementing FAA, think LSA, relaxed medicals,
more GPS approaches, etc.
Definitely Do Not Archive
Chuck Jensen <cjensen@dts9000.com> wrote:
Bob, I'm all for letting them do the heavy lifting on the User Fee issue
before we draw-n-quarter them--the problem is Boyer's the only one
that's been doing much lifting. Prober's been too busy praising the
retiring FAA Skirt.
Chuck Jensen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990
for AOPA hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation
looks to be about $590,000.
If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until
after they win the user fee battle for us? (g)
--------
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
RV Builder's Hotline (free!)
http://rvhotline.expercraft.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126754#126754
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Wings
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: EAA Criticism |
I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a year
compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. I do believe in
performance based pay but that is rare. When $50 million in assets is
realized, why not $75 million. I fear it's becoming about the money and not
what the organization can do to further and protect general aviation. Do not
archive!
Jim Bowen
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:50:45
>-0400
>
>
>I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two
>areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does
>that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue
>on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his
>father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers,
>sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are
>they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough?
>
>Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a
>publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held
>one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the
>beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's
>compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its
>just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem.
>Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know!
>
>Chuck Jensen
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson
>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism
>
>
>
>Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of
>hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes.
>
>But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil
>a year organization.
>
>-J
>
>On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
> >
> > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it
> > seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be
> > large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a
> > good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what
> > we already have?
> >
> > Jim Bowen
> > Rv-8
>
>
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