---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/31/07: 52 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:42 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen) 2. 05:49 AM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins) 3. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson) 4. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Chuck Jensen) 5. 06:54 AM - Re: Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 (Sam Buchanan) 6. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson) 7. 07:34 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Dale Ensing) 8. 07:38 AM - Osh Criticism (Richard Seiders) 9. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (John Jessen) 10. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Joseph Larson) 11. 08:06 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Robin Marks) 12. 08:10 AM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen) 13. 08:11 AM - EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Kenyon Brooks) 14. 08:38 AM - I have no EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Christopher Stone) 15. 09:19 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 16. 10:14 AM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Larry E. James) 17. 10:34 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Chuck Jensen) 18. 10:34 AM - Re: EAA Criticism (JAMES BOWEN) 19. 10:43 AM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 20. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joseph Larson) 21. 11:45 AM - Cowl Intake plugs (Tim Bryan) 22. 12:44 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Dale Ensing) 23. 12:46 PM - Re: Cowl Intake plugs (Dale Ensing) 24. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen) 25. 12:52 PM - Re: Cowl Intake plugs (Tim Bryan) 26. 12:57 PM - Re: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation (Ralph E. Capen) 27. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (John Jessen) 28. 01:17 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 29. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen) 30. 02:01 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 31. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Scott) 32. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joseph Larson) 33. 02:51 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Scott) 34. 02:55 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Terry Watson) 35. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Scott) 36. 03:04 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins) 37. 03:07 PM - Trade for F-1 Rocket or RV-8 (Ed Wischmeyer) 38. 03:10 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 39. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Scott) 40. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (n801bh@netzero.com) 41. 03:20 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 42. 03:56 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 43. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Terry Watson) 44. 04:01 PM - Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Bob Collins) 45. 04:27 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 46. 04:51 PM - For Sale: Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/One w/ Dual Displays (Mike Kraus) 47. 04:54 PM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 48. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen) 49. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Chuck Jensen) 50. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (c.ennis) 51. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Sherman Butler) 52. 09:48 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (JAMES BOWEN) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:57 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation Jim, Good advice - too late for me though...already have the prop - already had it 'rebuilt'....actually, I had the wrong (short) hub so they rebuilt it while it was getting the correct hub put on it. My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates. Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Jim Jewell >Sent: Jul 31, 2007 1:24 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > >Hi Ralph, > >My 6-a cowl came in two parts that required being fibreglassed together. >I often wish I had made the lower inlet snorkel section a removable piece >held on with screws and nut plates. >I doubt however that I would try to make such a modification the newer >single piece epoxy glass lower cowl. > >I have a two blade C/S prop and find it hard to imagine getting the lower >cowl on with that third blade in the way. > >If you have a prop shop or an airport near by you might find a bare hub >without blades the can be borrowed to use during the cowl fitting process. >Maybe someone on the list could locate one for you. > >If at all possible, wait until the very last buy that prop. Before you know >it the overhaul period shows up and the bank account takes another hit. > >If you don't know what I mean ...Don't ask{8-) > >Jim in Kelowna > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >To: >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:15 PM >Subject: RE: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > >> >> Thanks for the suggestion about the cart...I don't know about the prop >> though...I recall reading something that with a constant speed prop you >> have to have it on - makes sense to me since the backing plate is part of >> the hub. I'll do some more research though - it might make it easier if I >> can still get the accuracy. >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:57 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh From: "Bob Collins" jhstarn(at)verizon.net wrote: > Didn't get to OSH this year but I'll bet ya'll paid more for water (per gallon) than you did AVGAS. At WalMart, Ice Mountain was on sale. 32 bottles for $4.74. what's that? About 15 cents each. As with anything else, a little thinking and a slight amount of work can make a week at Oshkosh comparatively inexpensive. But it's like everything else, you pay for convenience. A lot of this reminds me of the kvetching over the high price of gasoline. Everyone does it, but only *I* seem to be the one driving 55 these days (g). -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126563#126563 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:53 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Kyle Boatright wrote: > Same thing for camping. The local campground has 365 days a year to > cover its overhead. The EAA campgrounds have one week of income a > year to fund maintenance, improvements, etc. These are fair comments, although I don't see what sort of improvements are made to an open field :-) But yes, it costs something to just own the land. > I consider Airventure to be an outstanding "value" entertainment > wise. My 2 seats for football games at my Alma Mater cost about > $1k/year, and that doesn't include parking. Airventure is peanuts > in comparison. > As I said at one point in this thread -- costs are relative. In the 90s, computer consultancy was very profitable, and $200 or even $1000 weren't a big deal to me. But now I'm supporting a family of 4 on a single income, paying for my wife's master's degree, and making less than I did in the late 90s. $200 matters to me. And I went solo. I don't know how folks earning less than I do pay for things like this for the entire family. -Joe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh From: "Chuck Jensen" The fee charged to vendors will eventually cramp the style of Airventure. Let's work with the estimated $2K to $5K fee. For this purpose, we'll use $3K as the base. By the time vendor pays the fee, staffs the booth with a minimum of 3 people for 10 days, including packing for the show and demobilization, that's 30 man-days or 1.5 man-months. At $65,000 per year, that's a cost of $8,125. Add in $125 per day for lodging and food per person (3 x 10 x $125) we see living expenses are$3,750. Add in shipping, mileage to OSH and misc. other costs, another $2k is easily consumed. So a conservative total is right at $15,000 for a booth. Of course, to recover that $15,000 cost, a vendor has to sell $45,000 to $60,000 of product....just to break even. The product he sold to break even means he has a few fewer customers out there, though there will be plenty of no cost follow on questions, technical support and warranty costs. Right now, the new EFISs are hot, but as that market shakes out, how many vendors will be left. Certainly the cost of the Show will drive the small, innovative, gizmo inventor away as he can never recover his costs. As a result, we'll lose access to many of the "small" new ideas that makes OSH and GA interesting. Soon enough, Honda Jet, Eclipse Jet, Joe Jet, et al will be the main vendors since they are the ones with the margins that justify attendance. It will start looking like a mini-me NBAA Convention. Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do with meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get together. As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of $50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and what do they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:40 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007: Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some? Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year. Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and start smoking) Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or 15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the airshow routine when half the people had already left). Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor spots...some $2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors still seem to be able to afford it... I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of experience to gauge against). Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Brian Meyette wrote: >--> > >I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all have >always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help. It >HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5 >years ago, when we first went. > >My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first >time. It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign >that said the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm > >The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the other >volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT, and >all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to >meet and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so >long, but haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen >or Dave Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you. > >brian > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh > > >Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone. > >The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost >to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put >any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is >any guide, most don't). > >It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to >put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals. > >By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working >for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free. > >I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space >once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started >at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, >visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly >overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the >evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn, >after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13. > >I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems >like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. >I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of >those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled >excitement just doesn't bother me much. > >It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation >is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of >ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else >in the world. > >I can think of so many things that bug me more. > >Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm >going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to >bang on pots outside their hotel rooms. > >-------- >Bob Collins >St. Paul, Minn. >RV Builder's Hotline (free!) >http://rvhotline.expercraft.com > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444 > > >11:14 PM > >11:14 PM > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:53 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon D10A HSI for SL-30 sarg314 wrote: > > I finally got around to reading the Dynon web page describing the new > HSI capability. I have an SL-30, so it sounds like I'd be foolish not > to hook it up. Has any one tried it? Does it work without any gotchas? I use the HSI with a GPS feed and it works very nicely. According to traffic on the Dynon forum the SL30 version of the HSI is also good. I can't find any detailed wiring info on the Dynon web page. If > any one has found some, please send me the link. Straight from the Dynon web site: http://dynonavionics.com/docs/support_documentation.html Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:50 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh LOL. Bob, I drove my Prius to Oshkosh. There and back on a 10- gallon tank of gas. :-) But I didn't go to Wal Mart for water. -J On Jul 31, 2007, at 7:49 AM, Bob Collins wrote: > > A lot of this reminds me of the kvetching over the high price of > gasoline. Everyone does it, but only *I* seem to be the one driving > 55 these days (g). ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:08 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation Ralph, If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no need to make a plate to cover the slot. Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that I have on my 6A and would recommend. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass > 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be > attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates. > > Ralph > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:44 AM PST US From: Richard Seiders Subject: RV-List: Osh Criticism Here's my 2 cts. Fourth visit to OSH. Last was 10 yrs ago. Liked it then , and liked it this year also. Has something for everybody in aviation. What's wrong with that?. Prices are fair. There's enough food, water stands, and toilet facilities. If you can't find more of what's to like than you have time to see even in one week then you're not looking. Dick ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh From: John Jessen Ah, hell, one good head-on thunderstorm and that'll be that. John Jessen (I've never been and am anxious to go. I'll bring my own water.) #40328 do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:50 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh The fee charged to vendors will eventually cramp the style of Airventure. Let's work with the estimated $2K to $5K fee. For this purpose, we'll use $3K as the base. By the time vendor pays the fee, staffs the booth with a minimum of 3 people for 10 days, including packing for the show and demobilization, that's 30 man-days or 1.5 man-months. At $65,000 per year, that's a cost of $8,125. Add in $125 per day for lodging and food per person (3 x 10 x $125) we see living expenses are$3,750. Add in shipping, mileage to OSH and misc. other costs, another $2k is easily consumed. So a conservative total is right at $15,000 for a booth. Of course, to recover that $15,000 cost, a vendor has to sell $45,000 to $60,000 of product....just to break even. The product he sold to break even means he has a few fewer customers out there, though there will be plenty of no cost follow on questions, technical support and warranty costs. Right now, the new EFISs are hot, but as that market shakes out, how many vendors will be left. Certainly the cost of the Show will drive the small, innovative, gizmo inventor away as he can never recover his costs. As a result, we'll lose access to many of the "small" new ideas that makes OSH and GA interesting. Soon enough, Honda Jet, Eclipse Jet, Joe Jet, et al will be the main vendors since they are the ones with the margins that justify attendance. It will start looking like a mini-me NBAA Convention. Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do with meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get together. As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of $50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and what do they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:40 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007: Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some? Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year. Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and start smoking) Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or 15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the airshow routine when half the people had already left). Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor spots...some $2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors still seem to be able to afford it... I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of experience to gauge against). Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Brian Meyette wrote: >--> > >I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all have >always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help. It >HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5 >years ago, when we first went. > >My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first >time. It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign >that said the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm > >The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the other >volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT, and >all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to >meet and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so >long, but haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen >or Dave Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you. > >brian > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh > > >Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone. > >The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost >to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put >any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is >any guide, most don't). > >It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to >put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals. > >By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working >for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free. > >I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space >once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started >at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, >visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly >overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the >evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn, >after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13. > >I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems >like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. >I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of >those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled >excitement just doesn't bother me much. > >It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation >is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of >ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else >in the world. > >I can think of so many things that bug me more. > >Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm >going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to >bang on pots outside their hotel rooms. > >-------- >Bob Collins >St. Paul, Minn. >RV Builder's Hotline (free!) >http://rvhotline.expercraft.com > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444 > > >11:14 PM > >11:14 PM > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:06 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh On Jul 31, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the > activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do > with > meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping > tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to > see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little > interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get > together. Hmm. My main fun was attending workshops and talking to vendors. I noticed that the number of aircraft vendors seemed a LOT lower than the last time I was there (10 years ago). I presume there have been a lot of shake-outs though -- a lot of companies going out of business. But I haven't paid that much attention to the market since I started the RV, as I'd made my decision... > As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its > business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of > $50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and > what do > they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches > with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots. I read the tax filing that Bob Collins posted. EAA doesn't have $50mil in the bank. They have assets in that general neighborhood, but most of it appears to be real estate, if I'm remembering correctly. -J ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:31 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... From: "Robin Marks" Mark have you seen Killer Paint? I don't know that much about them but their flames are real looking. It's a simple technique w/o tape & patterns. All hand done with an hand held cardboard pattern held off the surface about 8 inches. Plus several different flame paint colors for depth. There is an amazing RV-7 with this on the nose & leading edges. Attached is a Robinson 44 that someone called in as an emergency for "helicopter on fire" when the R44 pilot was landing to get a sandwich. Check out: http://www.killerpaint.com/gallery.html Look under True Fire. This guy is now famous but I am sure there are others around the US that are now doing the same technique. Robin RV-4 Sold RV-6A 375 Hours RV-10 Getting Closer every day Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Mon 7/30/2007 11:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars. Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area. Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans... Thanks & do not archive Mark ________________________________ . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:29 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation Dale, Thanks for the info. I already have their wing root fairings - mostly installed. Looks like more of the same high quality. Do you know how far forward the slot could go and still be covered by this fairing on your installation? Others with a three blade prop (I have an MT three blade) indicate that the slot needs to be further forward in order to drop the lower cowl enough to get it around the prop. Thanks, Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Dale Ensing >Sent: Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > >Ralph, >If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no >need to make a plate to cover the slot. > >Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that I >have on my 6A and would recommend. >Dale Ensing > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > >> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass >> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be >> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates. >> >> Ralph >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:59 AM PST US From: Kenyon Brooks Subject: RV-List: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh ..."Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to bang on pots outside their hotel rooms." - Bob Collins Right on, Bob! Call me and we'll have a "pot" band! Ken Brooks RV-8 N1903P Forever Finishing ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:17 AM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: RV-List: I have no EAA Criticism - Oshkosh The truckers were nothin' !! Coleman lanterns burning through half the night. Clicking keyboards, under the breath mumbling and snickering, just to name a couple of the anti-social behaviors exibited. A warning... Anyone camping near the Colllin's tent at future Airventures, you are hereby warned! We were warned... But alas payed no heed to the warning. And a great time was had by all!!! Thank You Bob! I haven't had that much fun for that cheap since they tore out the quarter crap tables in the Riverside Casino in Reno, Nevada back in '76 (Before non-airplane people dicovered Air Racing) Oh yeah.. The guys with the shirts. Poor taste, what were they thinking? Chris Stone Back home in Newberg, OR Had a ball! No complaints, And I paln on doing it all again! -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Collins >Sent: Jul 30, 2007 2:55 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh > > > >jpl(at)showpage.org wrote: >> But your comment about the truckers and their air horns sort of hits the nail squarely on the head. If we're going to put up with truckers hitting air horns, then $19 a day for camping is high. >> >> I think the discussion is (for me) over about $50 -- 25% of what I >> gave the EAA last Wednesday. My original comment wasn't "OMG it's >> WAY too expensive." Just a little high, that's all. >> >> > > >I'm trying to figure out what camping fee would've made me lose less sleep. (g) > >Seriously, I consider it a fault of the Oshkosh police department and Wisconsin State patrol that a bunch of gap-toothed morons got to disturb the peace with impunity. > > By the way, if you want to beat the EAA at its own game, stake out a campsite that you would feel comfortable with. The 20 x 30 regulation was in place years ago when camping units weren't so big. I don't think anybody ever checks. Want a 50 foot buffer? Stake it out. > >As for the kids giggling and folks talking all hours of the night. I'm afraid I'm at least partially guilty, although I did try to see people as they set up near me and first thing I said was, "let me explain to you what you're getting yourself into here..." > >BTW, I heard the Super 8 had rooms as late as Saturday night. What's up with THAT? > >-------- >Bob Collins >St. Paul, Minn. >RV Builder's Hotline (free!) >http://rvhotline.expercraft.com > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126462#126462 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:20 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... Guys of Mike's caliber are usually in high demand and their prices will reflect that. Look around locally and ask at art supply houses, tech schools, and the like. There is a good chance there is someone nearby that is very talented and will work cheap in order to build their portfolio. Around me a friend of a friend does airbrush work that would blow you away. And he usually does it very cheap just because he enjoys doing it! Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... Mark have you seen Killer Paint? I don't know that much about them but their flames are real looking. It's a simple technique w/o tape & patterns. All hand done with an hand held cardboard pattern held off the surface about 8 inches. Plus several different flame paint colors for depth. There is an amazing RV-7 with this on the nose & leading edges. Attached is a Robinson 44 that someone called in as an emergency for "helicopter on fire" when the R44 pilot was landing to get a sandwich. Check out: http://www.killerpaint.com/gallery.html Look under True Fire. This guy is now famous but I am sure there are others around the US that are now doing the same technique. Robin RV-4 Sold RV-6A 375 Hours RV-10 Getting Closer every day Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Mon 7/30/2007 11:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars. Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area. Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans... Thanks & do not archive Mark ________________________________ . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:17 AM PST US From: "Larry E. James" Subject: RV-List: re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh Bob Collins wrote: But it's impossible for me to believe that at something as diverse as AirVenture, folks who are really interested in getting something out of it for the money they put into it, don't get something significant out of it. In the big scheme of thing, the cost of AirVenture is chicken feed. But here's the thing. In this country right now, we insist not only that *our* individual tastes be met, we insist that other individual tastes NOT be met. It's ludicrous and it's why homebulders don't like warbirds who don't like seaplane people who don't like ultralight people who don't like Cirrus owners who don't like RV owners. Good Lord, AirVenture is un-flippin' believable in terms of the wide range of interests represented therein. People who don't like it aren't really trying that hard to find their own interests, or are working too hard to find reasons to be unsatisfied. Hi Bob, Nice words and well put. I've been to Oshkosh twice and had a great time (I'm waiting now to fly my own plane in). I believe you hit the issue when you comment on how people find what they are looking for; one can choose to look for good, adventure, interesting people and things; or they can choose to look for things wrong, reasons not to enjoy, etc. I'll agree that some events may be biased to the negative but I'd argue Oshkosh is definitely biased toward the positive in a huge way. Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Harmon Rocket ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... From: "Chuck Jensen" For best paint, including graphics, be it scenes or flames, check with motorcycle shops. There is a LOT of custom work done and most don't have "airplane prices". Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... --> Guys of Mike's caliber are usually in high demand and their prices will reflect that. Look around locally and ask at art supply houses, tech schools, and the like. There is a good chance there is someone nearby that is very talented and will work cheap in order to build their portfolio. Around me a friend of a friend does airbrush work that would blow you away. And he usually does it very cheap just because he enjoys doing it! Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... Mark have you seen Killer Paint? I don't know that much about them but their flames are real looking. It's a simple technique w/o tape & patterns. All hand done with an hand held cardboard pattern held off the surface about 8 inches. Plus several different flame paint colors for depth. There is an amazing RV-7 with this on the nose & leading edges. Attached is a Robinson 44 that someone called in as an emergency for "helicopter on fire" when the R44 pilot was landing to get a sandwich. Check out: http://www.killerpaint.com/gallery.html Look under True Fire. This guy is now famous but I am sure there are others around the US that are now doing the same technique. Robin RV-4 Sold RV-6A 375 Hours RV-10 Getting Closer every day Do Not Archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Mon 7/30/2007 11:35 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars. Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area. Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans... Thanks & do not archive Mark ________________________________ .. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:50 AM PST US From: "JAMES BOWEN" Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we already have? Jim Bowen Rv-8 _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:43 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed > fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of > dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part > of promoting aviation protecting what we already have? > > Jim Bowen > Rv-8 > It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000. Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary. His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:28 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil a year organization. -J On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it > seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be > large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a > good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what > we already have? > > Jim Bowen > Rv-8 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:36 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs While at Oshkosh I saw several RV's with red plugs that go in the cowl intakes. Where can a person get these for an RV-6? Thanks Tim ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:36 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation Ralph, On my cowl, I measured 9 inches from the from the front edge of the fiberglass mounting flair of the top intersection fairing to the front edge of the carb air intake port. I did this with a flexible measureing stick on the curve of the cowl. Considering there may be some differences in the air scoop placement as mine was not attached to the cowl when I got it, you may want to give it a least 10 inches and see if that gets you enough slot to get the cowl off with the 3 blade prop. Dale .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:04 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > Dale, > > Thanks for the info. I already have their wing root fairings - mostly > installed. Looks like more of the same high quality. > > Do you know how far forward the slot could go and still be covered by this > fairing on your installation? Others with a three blade prop (I have an > MT three blade) indicate that the slot needs to be further forward in > order to drop the lower cowl enough to get it around the prop. > > Thanks, > Ralph > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Dale Ensing >>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation >> >> >>Ralph, >>If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no >>need to make a plate to cover the slot. >> >>Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that >>I >>have on my 6A and would recommend. >>Dale Ensing >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Ralph E. Capen" >>To: >>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM >>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation >> >> >>> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass >>> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be >>> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:11 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs Van's Aircraft http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1185911053-284-29 1&browse=airframe&product=cowl_plugs Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bryan To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:43 PM Subject: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs While at Oshkosh I saw several RV's with red plugs that go in the cowl intakes. Where can a person get these for an RV-6? Thanks Tim href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:27 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Chuck Jensen" I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers, sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough? Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem. Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know! Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil a year organization. -J On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it > seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be > large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a > good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what > we already have? > > Jim Bowen > Rv-8 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:56 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RE: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs Thanks Dale and Paul, I hadn't realized that Van's had these as I had not seen them. I will order mine shortly. Tim _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs Van's Aircraft http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1185911053-284-291 &browse=airframe&product=cowl_plugs Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bryan Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:43 PM Subject: RV-List: Cowl Intake plugs While at Oshkosh I saw several RV's with red plugs that go in the cowl intakes. Where can a person get these for an RV-6? Thanks Tim href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?RV-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:27 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation Thanks a bunch! -----Original Message----- >From: Dale Ensing >Sent: Jul 31, 2007 3:43 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > > >Ralph, >On my cowl, I measured 9 inches from the from the front edge of the >fiberglass mounting flair of the top intersection fairing to the front edge >of the carb air intake port. I did this with a flexible measureing stick on >the curve of the cowl. Considering there may be some differences in the air >scoop placement as mine was not attached to the cowl when I got it, you may >want to give it a least 10 inches and see if that gets you enough slot to >get the cowl off with the 3 blade prop. >Dale >. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ralph E. Capen" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:04 AM >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation > > >> >> Dale, >> >> Thanks for the info. I already have their wing root fairings - mostly >> installed. Looks like more of the same high quality. >> >> Do you know how far forward the slot could go and still be covered by this >> fairing on your installation? Others with a three blade prop (I have an >> MT three blade) indicate that the slot needs to be further forward in >> order to drop the lower cowl enough to get it around the prop. >> >> Thanks, >> Ralph >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Dale Ensing >>>Sent: Jul 31, 2007 10:32 AM >>>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation >>> >>> >>>Ralph, >>>If you use an upper intersection fairing on the nose gear leg, there is no >>>need to make a plate to cover the slot. >>> >>>Fairings - Etc. at http://www.fairings-etc.com/ makes a nice fairing that >>>I >>>have on my 6A and would recommend. >>>Dale Ensing >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Ralph E. Capen" >>>To: >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:35 AM >>>Subject: Re: RV-List: RV 'A' series lower cowl installation >>> >>> >>>> My cowl has a one-piece lower section - and I'll be making a fiberglass >>>> 'plate' to cover the extended slot for the nose gear leg. Yes, I'll be >>>> attaching that with screws, tinnerman washers, and nutplates. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:11 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: John Jessen Haven't looked, but is this a non-profit or a not-for-profit. The latter simply has to show a zero profit. How they got there could be any number of ways, including salaries. John Jessen do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:51 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers, sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough? Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem. Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know! Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil a year organization. -J On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed > fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large > amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, > but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we already have? > > Jim Bowen > Rv-8 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:07 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" There might be a brother on the payroll somewhere. I don't really care. But in terms of significant salary and jobs, a lot of that is answered on the 990, the link to which I posted yesterday. I presume that deferred compensation includes 403Bs and, again, that's all listed there on the form. I presume also that people will consider the salary too much but it might be worth asking what the president does to earn it. Poberezny. Well, he started it. The EAA brand belongs to him. As with any business, a significant asset is the goodwill. Guess who's responsible for that significant asset. Damn right he should get a piece of the action. Still, I'm not really sure what the complaint is here. $19 a night to camp... $22 buck to get into the grounds. Seriously. What's the big flippin' deal here? That it's too much? I can think of a million things associated with this hobby of mine that is more out of whack with "real people." And, yeah, Garmin, I'm talking about you. (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126693#126693 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:07 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Chuck Jensen" Bob, I agree that Garmin and Jeppesen hold a "special" place in our hearts....real special. There isn't a flippin' problem with EAA--some are just wondering why they are setting on $50,000,000 and what they intend to do with it? How many years of NOT CHARGING EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT OWNERS for registering would the 50 mil cover? Quite a few I would think. Yes, Proberenzy may have been instrumental in developing the brand, but not everyone is pleased with the direction the brand is headed--he's responsible for that too. And to say he owns the franchise may be a bit broad. Or maybe its a matter of "Proberenzy's Company" makin' so much money that he doesn't give a flip about those dues payin' experimental aircraft builders and owners that was the bedrock foundation of the EAA. I think we all agree, AirVenture is expensive enough, but not necessarily outrageously so. No one cares, other than symbolically, whether the shuttle is 50-cents or not. The real question here is 'why are they setting on $50,000,000 and what are they going to do with it?' If their only goal is to turn $50,000,000 into $70,000,000, then that's a problem? Is there truly mission to serve the EAA community...or is that a cover to just make more money? Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 4:16 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism There might be a brother on the payroll somewhere. I don't really care. But in terms of significant salary and jobs, a lot of that is answered on the 990, the link to which I posted yesterday. I presume that deferred compensation includes 403Bs and, again, that's all listed there on the form. I presume also that people will consider the salary too much but it might be worth asking what the president does to earn it. Poberezny. Well, he started it. The EAA brand belongs to him. As with any business, a significant asset is the goodwill. Guess who's responsible for that significant asset. Damn right he should get a piece of the action. Still, I'm not really sure what the complaint is here. $19 a night to camp... $22 buck to get into the grounds. Seriously. What's the big flippin' deal here? That it's too much? I can think of a million things associated with this hobby of mine that is more out of whack with "real people." And, yeah, Garmin, I'm talking about you. (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126693#126693 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:00 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote: > are just wondering why they are setting on $50,000,000 and what they > intend to do with it? How many years of NOT CHARGING EXPERIMENTAL > AIRCRAFT OWNERS for registering would the 50 mil cover? Quite a few I > would think. If they are sitting on $50 million, I would hope they're doing so as an endowment, which would be a very, very prudent thing to do. Ideally, real ideally, you want any return on assets -- i.e. interest -- to cover your operating expenses so you don't have to dip into the endowment (kind of like what we all want our IRAs to do). You know, I was at the "surviving force landings" forum (which I wrote about here http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2007/07/surviving-forced-landings.html and the guy did a survey. "How many people are under 70?" A lot of hands, but not all, went up. "Under 60?" Still the majority of hands up. "Under 50?" A minority of hands, but still a lot "40?" Maybe a dozen, maybe two dozen "30?" Maybe 6 "20?" Two. That may have been the most eye-opening moment for me at Oshkosh for it crystalized the coming crisis in general aviation. I think EAA is in that same situation, of course, so if there is a pot of money that could help the organization weather the up-and-down, year-to-year problems I see in *my* non-profit (where it's like they just discover the budget process every March), I think that's all to the good. I really don't think we're looking at the United Way scandal here. Also, keep in mind the EAA museum is now free, year round, for EAA members, so clearly there's been an effort to give breaks to the members. I get a pretty good magazine -- yeah, I know, that's a separate issue for a lot of folks who seem to want to get mimeographed, stapled newsletters in the mail again (g) -- for $40. Besides, did you walk down the 24 hour generator area at Oshkosh? Where's the evidence THOSE folks are hurting? Now maybe if we're going to start an EAA profit-sharing plan, we start with people who camp in tents!!!! -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126707#126707 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:44 PM PST US From: Scott Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh I suppose some of the money they need goes to pay Tom. I see his salary at something like $418,000 per year as President (pretty good pay for a non-profit organization!!!). All other officers (VP, Sec. and Treas.) get $0 per year. All this is according to my cursory look at the link to their tax return that somebody posted here. Oh well, I primarily use Oshkosh as a way to get together with long distance friends too... Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Chuck Jensen wrote: > >The fee charged to vendors will eventually cramp the style of >Airventure. Let's work with the estimated $2K to $5K fee. For this >purpose, we'll use $3K as the base. By the time vendor pays the fee, >staffs the booth with a minimum of 3 people for 10 days, including >packing for the show and demobilization, that's 30 man-days or 1.5 >man-months. At $65,000 per year, that's a cost of $8,125. Add in $125 >per day for lodging and food per person (3 x 10 x $125) we see living >expenses are$3,750. Add in shipping, mileage to OSH and misc. other >costs, another $2k is easily consumed. So a conservative total is right >at $15,000 for a booth. > >Of course, to recover that $15,000 cost, a vendor has to sell $45,000 to >$60,000 of product....just to break even. The product he sold to break >even means he has a few fewer customers out there, though there will be >plenty of no cost follow on questions, technical support and warranty >costs. Right now, the new EFISs are hot, but as that market shakes out, >how many vendors will be left. Certainly the cost of the Show will >drive the small, innovative, gizmo inventor away as he can never recover >his costs. As a result, we'll lose access to many of the "small" new >ideas that makes OSH and GA interesting. Soon enough, Honda Jet, >Eclipse Jet, Joe Jet, et al will be the main vendors since they are the >ones with the margins that justify attendance. It will start looking >like a mini-me NBAA Convention. > >Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the >activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do with >meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping >tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to >see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little >interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get >together. > >As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its >business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of >$50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and what do >they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches >with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots. > >Chuck Jensen > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott >Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:40 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh > > > >My (PERSONAL) observations of OSH 2007: > >Camp Scholler West-most shower house had "NO CAMPING" signs at several >points around the grass and was ignored by 4 or 5 campers. EAA security > >never said squat and I was there for the entire convention and saw them >drive by without a look. Why the "privilege" for some? > >Campground trash? More and more on the ground this year. > >Trash on flightline? WAY up from the 70s and 80s. Cigarette butts and >candy wrappers. When did they open up the flightline to smoking? Did I > >miss that? Better get me a box of Cuban stogies for next year...(and >start smoking) > >Where was the guy that used to harp about littering and for others to >pick up something if they saw it on the ground? Used to be every 10 or >15 minutes on the PA system. Heard it ONCE this year (at the end of the > >airshow routine when half the people had already left). > >Prices? I saw on the Airventure website the prices of vendor >spots...some $2K some $5K. Seemed vendors were down to me. Very little > >vendor activity in ultralight section. Little down by Van's compared to > >past years. Has the bubble burst? Vendors feeling it may not be worth >their investment in a space? The sunglasses and pots and pan vendors >still seem to be able to afford it... > >I'd say it was a sad state of affairs (and I have 30+ years of >experience to gauge against). > >Scott >http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ >Gotta Fly or Gonna Die >Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) > > >Brian Meyette wrote: > > > >>--> >> >>I've emailed EAA several years in a row with some suggestions, but all >> >> >have > > >>always been ignored. Maybe Tom's announcement of changes will help. >> >> >It > > >>HAS improved. We think the food selection has gotten better than 5 >>years ago, when we first went. >> >>My wife and I took the free shuttle to the seaplane base for the first >>time. It wasn't a big deal, but after we got there, they had a big sign >> >> > > > >>that said the shuttle was $2 round trip. Hmmmm >> >>The RV BBQ was just SUPER! Thanks so much to Bob, Darwin and all the >> >> >other > > >>volunteers for putting on such a great event. Thanks to Stein, GRT, >> >> >and > > >>all the other vendors who contributed to it. It was a real pleasure to >> >> > > > >>meet and chat with so many nice people I've known via Internet for so >>long, but haven't had a chance to meet yet. I didn't find Chad Jensen >>or Dave Domeier, so if you guys were there, sorry I missed you. >> >>brian >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins >>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:51 PM >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh >> >> >>Hey, Tim. Likewise. It was a blast meeting everyone. >> >>The shuttle bus thing is interesting because it doesn't actually cost >>to take it. There's a donation box there, but nobody is required to put >> >> > > > >>any money in it (and, if the last 5 years of my anecdotal experience is >> >> > > > >>any guide, most don't). >> >>It also worth noting that the EAA *expanded* the service this year to >>put an extra shuttle bus on for handicapped individuals. >> >>By the way, I'm pretty sure the drivers of the busses are NOT working >>for free. Nor is the gasoline those busses use free. >> >>I'm not much into camping -- the tent comes down from the crawl space >>once a year -- so I don't know if $19 is high or not....but I started >>at 6 in the morning with coffee watching the ultralights fly overhead, >>visited with tons of people, watched every kind of plane fly >>overhead... occasionally walked a half mile to the show... and in the >>evening munched on free popcorn while watching a movie on the lawn, >>after listening to the likes of James Lovell talk about Apollo 13. >> >>I don't know, I paid $1 for the local newspaper today and THAT seems >>like a ripoff. I pay $50 for a cellphone and THAT seems like a ripoff. >>I pay $55 for broadband and another $47 for satellite TV and none of >>those things seem like great value. $19 for 10 days of unparalleled >>excitement just doesn't bother me much. >> >>It's probably just me -- I'm an easily impressed person where aviation >>is concerned -- but I just kept thinking that here I was on a spot of >>ground where something is happening that is not happening ANYWHERE else >> >> > > > >>in the world. >> >>I can think of so many things that bug me more. >> >>Like those truckers that hit the air horns at 3 in the morning. I'm >>going to find out where the truckers convention is and I'm going to >>bang on pots outside their hotel rooms. >> >>-------- >>Bob Collins >>St. Paul, Minn. >>RV Builder's Hotline (free!) >>http://rvhotline.expercraft.com >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126444#126444 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>11:14 PM >> >>11:14 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:19 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism On Jul 31, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Bob Collins wrote: > > Now maybe if we're going to start an EAA profit-sharing plan, we > start with people who camp in tents!!!! Yes! The EAA could donate to my "swap out an RV-6A kit for an RV-7A kit" fund. -J ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:50 PM PST US From: Scott Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism According to the tax form, Paul gets $78,000 and Tom gets about $418,000. $418K seems pretty Steep for the President of a NON-PROFIT place. For a Fortune 500 company, it would be small... do not archive Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Bob Collins wrote: > > >jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: > > >>What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed >>fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of >>dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part >>of promoting aviation protecting what we already have? >> >>Jim Bowen >>Rv-8 >> >> >> > > >It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000. Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary. > >His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off. > >-------- >Bob Collins >St. Paul, Minn. >RV Builder's Hotline (free!) >http://rvhotline.expercraft.com > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653 > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:47 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism OK, THIS part I find revealing: "Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary." So firemen are the guys we pay year after year to let our buildings burn down? Lifeguards are the ones we pay to let our kids drown? No, they are the ones we hire to try to prevent the bad things from happening. The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a dying company. Like any high risk job or investment, the rewards are commensurate with the risk. A very few might deserve your smear, but the broad brush you use to paint the fine detail here might as well be a paint roller. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:43 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it seemed > fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be large amounts of > dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a good thing, but, isn't part > of promoting aviation protecting what we already have? > > Jim Bowen > Rv-8 > It was in the tax filing I uploaded yesterday. If memory serves, about $450,000. Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary. His father gets something like $160,000 (but don't quote me; I may be off. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126653#126653 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:02 PM PST US From: Scott Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism See http://www.abbott-langer.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Summary.ShowSummary&PID=59 Here is a chart from the above webpage... Table 1: Random list of positions (representing each major function group [for non profit orgs]) out of a total 300 positions included in the report. Position Total compensation* 2006 2007 Chief Executive Officer $212,895 $219,649 Chief Operating Officer $154,382 $159,062 Top Legal Officer $146,760 $149,892 Top Administrative Officer $134,166 $137,149 Top Financial Officer $132,548 $136,870 Engineering Manager $85,341 $86,464 Systems & Programming Manager $76,805 $77,834 Marketing Director $73,427 $74,440 Financial Analysis Manager $71,648 $72,621 Art Director $66,432 $67,097 Librarian Head $62,604 $63,427 Manager Retail Store $57,120 $58,538 Employee Training Supervisor $56,037 $56,745 Historic Sites Administrator $51,827 $52,409 Psychiatrist $163,762 $166,424 General Practitioner $129,761 $130,867 Fundraising Director $101,117 $104,196 Psychologist $59,617 $60,429 Audiologist $55,747 $56,649 Systems Analyst Lead $68,640 $69,543 Lead Computer Programmer $67,722 $68,629 Systems Analyst $53,435 $54,106 Applications Programmer $52,527 $53,205 LAN/WAN Administrator $49,493 $50,129 Attorney Corporate $74,426 $75,472 Computer System Hardware Analyst $63,875 $64,708 Producer $59,838 $60,697 Labor Relations Specialist $54,564 $55,280 Human Resources Advisor $54,380 $55,056 Sales Product Manager $71,125 $72,067 Sales Area Manager $58,501 $59,315 Fundraiser $51,885 $52,512 Sales Representative (General) $40,693 $41,275 Membership Solicitor $35,989 $36,500 Secretary to CEO $44,254 $44,824 Grant Coordinator $41,186 $41,788 Museum Exhibit Designer $37,767 $38,314 Interpreter $36,323 $36,835 Administrative Assistant $34,133 $34,638 Re-Recording Mixer $33,923 $34,450 Clay Modeler $33,592 $34,097 Still Photographer $33,561 $34,069 Scheduler Museums $30,902 $31,319 Computer Operator $30,731 $31,153 * Includes base annual salary, plus all cash bonuses and/or cash profit sharing. Source: "(Summary of All Nonprofits - 2007" " (Summary of All Nonprofits - 2006, Abbott, Langer Association Surveys 1725 I Street NW, Suite 300, Washington, DC 20006 USA Telephone: (877) 210-6563, Fax: (877) 239-2457 E-Mail: info@abbott-langer.com http://www.abbott-langer.com do not archive Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Joseph Larson wrote: > > Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of > hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. > > But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil > a year organization. > > -J > > On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > >> >> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it >> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be >> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a >> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we >> already have? >> >> Jim Bowen >> Rv-8 > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:25 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh From: "Bob Collins" acepilot(at)bloomer.net wrote: > I suppose some of the money they need goes to pay Tom. I see his salary > at something like $418,000 per year as President (pretty good pay for a > non-profit organization!!!). Not too unusual, and kinda low at that for a national non profit. Much of the work of a boss of a non-profit is raising money. It's not like they have some product or widget to put on the market and sit back and rake in the cash. It's a lot of work. The other thing is the guy is making a living and it's not unusual to pay someone appropriately for the marketplace. Poberezny HAS done a good job growing the organization. Given that out here, Northwest Airlines paid their CEO $26 million to plunge the airline into bankruptcy (evidently THAT'S a talent that can't be entrusted to just ANY incompetent boob), and when you look at all of the companies out there paying millions and millions of dollars and are economic basket cases, $418,000 isn't too bad. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126734#126734 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:23 PM PST US From: Ed Wischmeyer Subject: RV-List: Trade for F-1 Rocket or RV-8 Folks - Change of circumstances mean that a pristine straight-tail Cessna (www.greatusermanuals.com/c175) and an AirCam (912S engines, basic panel and avionics, 200 SNEW, $78,000) are looking for good homes. Both aircraft are in Prescott, Arizona, but I'm moving in a few weeks and would like to find them new homes promptly. As for me, I'll be looking to rejoin the yank and bank crowd with an F-1 Rocket, preferably the Evo wing, or maybe an RV-8 with a constant speed prop. I'm not looking for an over-equipped, pricey aircraft, but something that's properly and skillfully built -- pride of ownership, as they say in real estate. Other possibilities are a flying aircraft but without the fancy panel and super-tuned engine (could reduce your liability), or a kit that's well along. I'm moving to Cedar Rapids, IA, to work at RockwellCollins. They've got hundreds of openings for engineers, but if you know of somebody who's interested, please let me know before they apply so that I can get credit$. thanks Ed Wischmeyer ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:13 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" Terry Watson wrote: > The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to > take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a > dying company. You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. I was thinking specifically of NWA CEO Doug Steenland when I wrote that. Yes, I would put him in the category of "slobs." All he's done is broken unions, ruined families, stranded passengers, and -- oh yeah -- accepted the $26 million dollars for the great job he did running his company into bankruptcy. Sorry. No sale. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126737#126737 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:14 PM PST US From: Scott Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism The one thing that concerns me is that as President, Tom gets paid well for a position listed as 40+ hours a week and every other officer gets $0 and is listed as <10 hours a week. Does Tom do EVERYTHING himself? Of course, there are paid employees, but not other paid officers. Paul is Chairman of the Board (listed as about $78K, not $160K). do not archive Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Chuck Jensen wrote: > >I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two >areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does >that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue >on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his >father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers, >sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are >they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough? > >Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a >publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held >one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the >beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's >compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its >just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem. >Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know! > >Chuck Jensen > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism > > > >Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of >hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. > >But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil >a year organization. > >-J > >On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > > > >> >>What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it >>seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be >>large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a >>good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what >>we already have? >> >>Jim Bowen >>Rv-8 >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:19 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh I agree, the vendors are thinning out but the EAA has a slick marketing scheme going. If you look close at all the areas where there was a vendo r last year the EAA put up tents to sell shirts, caps, etc. It appears to the naked eye that the place is full. I think I counted about a half dozen tents, buildings or other cubbyholes where the EAA was selling thi er merchandise. That tactic will only drive up the prices on next years vendors. That Tom P is pretty slick..!!! do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Joseph Larson wrote: On Jul 31, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Finally, if you look at the comments posted, the vast majority of the > activities that attendees found most valuable and valued had to do > with > meeting up with other pilots, ogling each other's planes, swapping > tales, telling stories, drinking refreshments. Other than a chance to > see some select vendors, what AirVenture has morphed into holds little > interest to the EAA folks, other than its an opportunity to get > together. Hmm. My main fun was attending workshops and talking to vendors. I noticed that the number of aircraft vendors seemed a LOT lower than the last time I was there (10 years ago). I presume there have been a lot of shake-outs though -- a lot of companies going out of business. But I haven't paid that much attention to the market since I started the RV, as I'd made my decision... > As a non-profit, EAA needs some financial buffer to conduct its > business. However, the question remains; why do they need a net of > $50,000,000 in the bank ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and > what do > they intend to use it for? Seems to me its time to share the riches > with the ones that made the riches possible---EAA members and pilots. I read the tax filing that Bob Collins posted. EAA doesn't have $50mil in the bank. They have assets in that general neighborhood, but most of it appears to be real estate, if I'm remembering correctly. -J ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

I agree, the vendors are thinning out but the EAA has a slick m arketing scheme going. If you look close at all the areas where the re was a vendor last year the EAA put up tents to sell shirts, caps, etc .  It appears to the naked eye that the place is full. I think I co unted about a half dozen tents, buildings or other cubbyholes where the EAA was selling thier merchandise. That tactic will only drive up the pr ices on next years vendors. That Tom P is pretty slick..!!!

do not archive


Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair .com

-- Joseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>&nbs p;wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: J oseph Larson <jpl@showpage.org>


On Jul&n bsp;31, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Chuck Jensen&nbs p;wrote:

>
> Finally, if you look&nb sp;at the comments posted, the vast majori ty of the
> activities that attendees&nbs p;found most valuable and valued had to&nb sp;do  
> with
> meeting up wi th other pilots, ogling each other's plane s, swapping
> tales, telling stories, dri nking refreshments.  Other than a chance&n bsp;to
> see some select vendors, what&nb sp;AirVenture has morphed into holds little
> interest to the EAA folks, other  ;than its an opportunity to get
> to gether.

Hmm.  My main fun was atten ding workshops and talking to vendors. &nb sp;I  
noticed that the number of  aircraft vendors seemed a LOT lower than&n bsp; 
the last time I was there (1 0 years ago).  I presume there have&n bsp;been  
a lot of shake-outs though&n bsp;-- a lot of companies going out o f  
business.  But I haven't paid& nbsp;that much attention to the market sin ce  
I started the RV, as I'd  ;made my decision...

> As a non-profi t, EAA needs some financial buffer to  ;conduct its
> business.  However, the&nb sp;question remains; why do they need a&nb sp;net of
> $50,000,000 in the bank  ($65K assets less $15K liabilities) and &n bsp;
> what do
> they intend to&nbs p;use it for?  Seems to me its t ime to share the riches
> with the&n bsp;ones that made the riches possible---EAA&nb sp;members and pilots.

I read the tax&nb sp;filing that Bob Collins posted.  EAA&nb sp;doesn't have  
$50mil in the bank.&n bsp; They have assets in that general  ;neighborhood,  
but most of it appears  to be real estate, if I'm rememberin ======================== ======================== ;the Matronics List Features Navigator to  Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,  ======================== sp;           -&n sp;great content now also available via th ======================== ===================
________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:09 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" If we cut his salary in half, we could pass the savings along to all the EAA members. Then it'd only cost $21.95 to get into AirVenture. (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126746#126746 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:30 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990 for AOPA hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation looks to be about $590,000. If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until after they win the user fee battle for us? (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126754#126754 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:37 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I assume "Sorry. No Sale." Means you continue to use that paint roller to describe all CEO's whose companies go under, not just the NWA CEO? It's one thing to excoriate someone who takes advantage of a bad situation for personal profit as I presume you think Mr. Steenland did. It is another thing entirely to smear everyone who is willing to take on a difficult, often impossible job with the same moral condemnation. Don't you see the difference? I'm sure it is really just a difference of perspective. I see business as the institution that brings me virtually all of the material and much of the non-material goods and services that makes my very good life possible, and I appreciate the risk involved. Some see it as just institutionalized greed. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:09 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Terry Watson wrote: > The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to > take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a > dying company. You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. I was thinking specifically of NWA CEO Doug Steenland when I wrote that. Yes, I would put him in the category of "slobs." All he's done is broken unions, ruined families, stranded passengers, and -- oh yeah -- accepted the $26 million dollars for the great job he did running his company into bankruptcy. Sorry. No sale. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126737#126737 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:35 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh From: "Bob Collins" n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: > I agree, the vendors are thinning out but the EAA has a slick marketing scheme going. I thought the same thing last year when they actually did the same thing. Then I found out from a prominent vendor who hasn't been able to get into Oshkosh that there's actually a waiting list. He got in this year. There are people waiting to take the space of those who go away. SteinAir, for example, moved into a larger space that, presumably, had been vacated. But his old space was taken. VerticalPower, a company that didn't even exist last year (at least from our end) got a spot this year. I talked to as many people as I could this year and they all said business was good and the attendance was strong. I didn't spend ANY time looking at airplanes for sale so it wouldn't surprise me if there were fewer of those folks. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how some of those companies stay in business. OTOH, you guys probably heard the same thing I did. On the first day of the show, Cessna had 300+ orders for their LSA by noon (!!!). So someone's got some money out there. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126757#126757 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:20 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" Terry Watson wrote: > I assume "Sorry. No Sale." Means you continue to use that paint roller to > describe all CEO's whose companies go under, not just the NWA CEO? > Please take a moment to reread the sentence because you've badly misinterpreted the sentence. "Given the slobs out there making million and millions to run their companies into bankruptcy, I can't begrudge him that salary." None of the CEOs you passionately -- and appropriately defend -- fit that category. > > It's one thing to excoriate someone who takes advantage of a bad situation for personal profit as I presume you think Mr. Steenland did. It is another thing entirely to smear everyone who is willing to take on a difficult, often impossible job with the same moral condemnation. > And, again, the characterization was referencing those CEOS who take advantage of bad situations -- or even create them -- for personal profit. There was nothing in the original sentence that referred to any other CEOs, and so I don't feel compelled to defend the assertion I never made. I don't view business as institutional greed. But just as I know a good CEO when I see one, I know what a scumbag looks like too. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126767#126767 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:35 PM PST US From: "Mike Kraus" Subject: RV-List: For Sale: Blue Mountain Avionics EFIS/One w/ Dual Displays I have decided to sell my blue mountain avionics EFIS/One G3 and upgrade to a G4 version. This unit has never been installed or flown in an airplane. It was one of their demo units for a trade show and offered to me at a small discount when I purchased it in January 2006. I have been playing with it on the bench quite a few times and it works perfectly. I can power up the unit and send detailed pictures to anyone seriously interested in purchasing this unit. Details: * Generation 3 gold box * Connections from the box have been rotated (by blue mountain avionics) for rear exit for easier installation in most aircraft * Dual Screens for pilot and co-pilot * Magnetometer * Programming Keyboard * Analog 3 Card for 16 additional sensors (allows engine monitor functions for 6 or more cylinders) * One year Nav Data updates * All documentation, wiring, GPS antenna, etc that came from the factory I can deliver this unit in a reasonable flying distance from SE Michigan. Cost New in 2006: EFIS/One $14,975 Dual Display $ 1,895 Analog 3 card $ 795 Nav Data 1 year $ 395 Total New in 1996 = $18,060 Asking price is $9,995 If you like the blue mountain avionics products, you won't be disappointed. This is a great opportunity to get a nice system for almost half price! Please e-mail or call with questions. Thanks -Mike Kraus 517-414-4070 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:32 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... In a message dated 7/31/2007 10:10:17 AM Central Daylight Time, robin1@mrmoisture.com writes: Mark have you seen Killer Paint? Hi Robin- thanks for the reply- I saw the black -6 last year at OSH and the flames was quite impressive, but not what I'm looking for- I'd like to find someone to layout a more "traditional" flame scheme without airbrushing- mostly long thin flames in solid colors overlapping each other... Mark do not archive ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:29 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Chuck Jensen" The only position I didn't see was: Aircraft owner -21,000 -22,900 Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott See http://www.abbott-langer.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=Summary.ShowSummary&PI D=59 Here is a chart from the above webpage... Table 1: Random list of positions (representing each major function group [for non profit orgs]) out of a total 300 positions included in the report. Position Total compensation* 2006 2007 Chief Executive Officer $212,895 $219,649 Chief Operating Officer $154,382 $159,062 Top Legal Officer $146,760 $149,892 Top Administrative Officer $134,166 $137,149 Top Financial Officer $132,548 $136,870 Engineering Manager $85,341 $86,464 Systems & Programming Manager $76,805 $77,834 Marketing Director $73,427 $74,440 Financial Analysis Manager $71,648 $72,621 Art Director $66,432 $67,097 Librarian Head $62,604 $63,427 Manager Retail Store $57,120 $58,538 Employee Training Supervisor $56,037 $56,745 Historic Sites Administrator $51,827 $52,409 Psychiatrist $163,762 $166,424 General Practitioner $129,761 $130,867 Fundraising Director $101,117 $104,196 Psychologist $59,617 $60,429 Audiologist $55,747 $56,649 Systems Analyst Lead $68,640 $69,543 Lead Computer Programmer $67,722 $68,629 Systems Analyst $53,435 $54,106 Applications Programmer $52,527 $53,205 LAN/WAN Administrator $49,493 $50,129 Attorney Corporate $74,426 $75,472 Computer System Hardware Analyst $63,875 $64,708 Producer $59,838 $60,697 Labor Relations Specialist $54,564 $55,280 Human Resources Advisor $54,380 $55,056 Sales Product Manager $71,125 $72,067 Sales Area Manager $58,501 $59,315 Fundraiser $51,885 $52,512 Sales Representative (General) $40,693 $41,275 Membership Solicitor $35,989 $36,500 Secretary to CEO $44,254 $44,824 Grant Coordinator $41,186 $41,788 Museum Exhibit Designer $37,767 $38,314 Interpreter $36,323 $36,835 Administrative Assistant $34,133 $34,638 Re-Recording Mixer $33,923 $34,450 Clay Modeler $33,592 $34,097 Still Photographer $33,561 $34,069 Scheduler Museums $30,902 $31,319 Computer Operator $30,731 $31,153 * Includes base annual salary, plus all cash bonuses and/or cash profit sharing. Source: "(Summary of All Nonprofits - 2007" " (Summary of All Nonprofits - 2006, Abbott, Langer Association Surveys 1725 I Street NW, Suite 300, Washington, DC 20006 USA Telephone: (877) 210-6563, Fax: (877) 239-2457 E-Mail: info@abbott-langer.com http://www.abbott-langer.com do not archive Scott http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/ Gotta Fly or Gonna Die Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version) Joseph Larson wrote: > > Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of > hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. > > But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil > a year organization. > > -J > > On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > >> >> What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it >> seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be >> large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a >> good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what we >> already have? >> >> Jim Bowen >> Rv-8 > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:36 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Chuck Jensen" Bob, I'm all for letting them do the heavy lifting on the User Fee issue before we draw-n-quarter them--the problem is Boyer's the only one that's been doing much lifting. Prober's been too busy praising the retiring FAA Skirt. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:52 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990 for AOPA hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation looks to be about $590,000. If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until after they win the user fee battle for us? (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126754#126754 ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:42 PM PST US From: "c.ennis" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Mentioning Tom's father, Paul, reminded me of the "Sport Aviation Association" which was a try by Paul to get back to the experimental part of the aviation family. As I recall his last letter to members noted a lack of significant interest for him to continue. Perhaps if more of us had joined in, we would have been be happier with what Paul was offering. Do not archive. Charlie Ennis RV-6A ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:30 PM PST US From: Sherman Butler Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I certainly do not know why there is so much anger at EAA. The $50 million is Real Estate, not cash. It is a voluntary organization. My experience is that EAA has assisted me much more then AOPA. I was told more than once that EAA is much more effective working behind the scenes and making polite while Boyer is showboating and confrontational. It probably takes both to some extent. As for complementing FAA, think LSA, relaxed medicals, more GPS approaches, etc. Definitely Do Not Archive Chuck Jensen wrote: Bob, I'm all for letting them do the heavy lifting on the User Fee issue before we draw-n-quarter them--the problem is Boyer's the only one that's been doing much lifting. Prober's been too busy praising the retiring FAA Skirt. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:52 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Just for the heck of it, I looked up Phil Boyer's salary today. The 990 for AOPA hasn't been updated since 2005 but with today compensation looks to be about $590,000. If we're going to string both of these guys up, can we please WAIT until after they win the user fee battle for us? (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126754#126754 Sherman Butler RV-7a Wings Idaho Falls --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:27 PM PST US From: "JAMES BOWEN" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a year compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. I do believe in performance based pay but that is rare. When $50 million in assets is realized, why not $75 million. I fear it's becoming about the money and not what the organization can do to further and protect general aviation. Do not archive! Jim Bowen >To: >Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:50:45 >-0400 > > >I concur that $500K for the size operation is not out of line. The two >areas of concern is references to "deferred compensation". What does >that mean and to whom? And then, of course, nepotism is always an issue >on an organization run by a dominate person. What exactly does his >father do for $160,000? How many other brothers, sisters, mothers, >sons, daughters and other misc. kin and buddies are on the payroll? Are >they earning their keep or just feeding at the trough? > >Non-profit management has an even higher fiduciary responsibility than a >publicly held company and massively more so than for a privately held >one. It would be comforting to see disclosure of all of the >beneficiaries of this non-profit. If $500K is Proberenzy's >compensation, lock, stock and barrel, that seems reasonable. If its >just he iceberg showing above the water, then there could be a problem. >Inquiring minds, including dues payers, would like to know! > >Chuck Jensen > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:11 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism > > > >Salary plus benefits were close to $500k. Plus I bet a bunch of >hidden benefits like lots of free flight time in lots of fun airplanes. > >But that's not completely out of line for the president of a $30-mil >a year organization. > >-J > >On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:32 PM, JAMES BOWEN wrote: > > > > > What is Tom Poberezny's annual salary. I can't remember, but it > > seemed fairly impressive to me when I heard it. There seems to be > > large amounts of dollars involved in the EAA. This is probably a > > good thing, but, isn't part of promoting aviation protecting what > > we already have? > > > > Jim Bowen > > Rv-8 > > _________________________________________________________________ Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.