---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/01/07: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:18 AM - Re: Looking for Flamer... (Charles Rowbotham) 2. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Dale Ensing) 3. 04:59 AM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 4. 05:33 AM - Eaa banter (Charles Heathco) 5. 06:18 AM - Re: Eaa banter (cbaron66) 6. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joe Larson) 7. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Charles Heathco) 8. 07:05 AM - Re: Eaa banter (N395V) 9. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (David Schaefer) 10. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Bob Collins) 11. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Dale Walter) 12. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Joseph Larson) 13. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joseph Larson) 14. 08:36 AM - Re: EAA Criticism (Bob Collins) 15. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Timothy E. Cone) 16. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Jim Sears) 17. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Joseph Larson) 18. 09:50 AM - Re: Eaa banter (Bob Collins) 19. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Terry Watson) 20. 12:03 PM - Re: Eaa banter (Bob Collins) 21. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Chuck Jensen) 22. 12:03 PM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Brian Meyette) 23. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 24. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: WAS Eaa banter NOW OSH interesting things (Brian Meyette) 25. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Michael W Stewart) 26. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Jerry Hansen) 27. 01:15 PM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Kevin Horton) 28. 01:17 PM - XP Assembly (Paul Besing) 29. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: Eaa banter (Brian Kraut) 30. 02:56 PM - Re: Electronic Ignition (dick martin) 31. 07:09 PM - Re: EAA Criticism (AirMike) 32. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh (Larry Bowles) 33. 08:41 PM - Re: Re: Re: Eaa banter () 34. 09:51 PM - airventure 2007 - What's all the fuss?! (Lamar Lawson) 35. 10:23 PM - Re: airventure 2007 - What's all the fuss?! (Bob Collins) 36. 11:08 PM - Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 37. 11:11 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) 38. 11:15 PM - Re: airventure 2007 - What's all the fuss?! (Bob Collins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:18 AM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: RE: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... Hi Mark, I'd suggest you call Phil at Woodway Signs, He did our graphics on our RV8A. Great to work with, does geat work and is reasonable. His number is (281) 461-4600. You can get his (800) number out of Trada-A-Plane. Chuck Rowbotham RV-8A >From: Fiveonepw@aol.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Looking for Flamer... >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:35:34 EDT > >I am seeking contacts for an individual competent in the art of flame >graphics such as seen on quality hot rods/custom cars. >Tennesee/Georgia/Alabama/Kentucky area. > >Feel free to pass along my e-mail address to qualified artisans... > >Thanks & do not archive >Mark > > >************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL >at >http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:54 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I am sorry the Sport Aviation Association didn't succeed. I would have joined if I had known it existed at the time. I learned of it after it had folded. How did Paul go about recruiting members? To my knowledge, Tom P. has never built an airplane. Any one know otherwise? Dale Ensing do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "c.ennis" Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism > > Mentioning Tom's father, Paul, reminded me of the "Sport Aviation > Association" which was a try by Paul to get back to the experimental part > of the aviation family. > As I recall his last letter to members noted a lack of significant > interest for him to continue. Perhaps if more of us had joined in, we > would have been be happier with what Paul was offering. > Do not archive. > > Charlie Ennis > RV-6A > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:19 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: > I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a year > compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. As near as I can tell, a sizeable chunk of the people "camping" east of Stits Road fall into that category. I saw our favorite basketball player traded yesterday. He makes $26 million a year. Poberezny had a better year. (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126860#126860 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:02 AM PST US From: "Charles Heathco" Subject: RV-List: Eaa banter You think we could give this a rest? its just repeticious drivel and is cloging my mailbox. Charlie Heathco ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:38 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter From: "cbaron66" What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact that a measurable amount of the membership of an organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased with the way their dues are used? Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play with very expensive crap most of us will never even dream about owning? Even though I only started attending in the early ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under the rug once again. However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once a year. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126885#126885 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:22 AM PST US From: Joe Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I read that letter as sport aviation, not experimental / homebuilder aviation. LSAs, etc. As far as I'm concerned, the main thrust of the main EAA periodical should be experimental aviation. -J On Jul 31, 2007, at 7:44 PM, c.ennis wrote: > > Mentioning Tom's father, Paul, reminded me of the "Sport Aviation > Association" which was a try by Paul to get back to the > experimental part of the aviation family. > As I recall his last letter to members noted a lack of significant > interest for him to continue. Perhaps if more of us had joined in, > we would have been be happier with what Paul was offering. > Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:31 AM PST US From: "Charles Heathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter forget about it, Im just changing to Digest. ----- Original Message ----- From: "cbaron66" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:17 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact that a measurable amount of the membership of an organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased with the way their dues are used? Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play with very expensive crap most of us will never even dream about owning? Even though I only started attending in the early ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under the rug once again. However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once a year. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126885#126885 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:02 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter From: "N395V" > However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. Care to expand on this comment? Only 40s and under should be flying and building. Everybody over 40 or living above the poverty level has no skills? Some people in their 20s and 30s consider 40 year olds as sad old men. Your view of the EAA is no more appealing to me than the current one. But then when I die of old age I really won't care, that is if my presumed lack of skill doesn't get me first. so GFY -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126894#126894 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:22 AM PST US From: "David Schaefer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter As much as I didn't want to get involved ... your note was the last straw. I agree completely with Charlie ... this is the RV FORUM .. not the bitch about EAA forum. If you want a bitch about EAA forum go to Yahoo and create an "EAA SUCKS" forum and continue to spout this dribble. OTHERWISE, let's talk about RVs, RV construction etc. OH .. and I've been a member of EAA since 1974 and while I don't like much of what they have become, this is not the place to discuss it. Now flame me all you want! On 8/1/07, cbaron66 wrote: > > > What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact that a > measurable amount of the membership of an organization that is "non-profit" > are not overly pleased with the way their dues are used? Or are you talking > about the fact that Osh has become mostly a place for wealthy people to > buy/pose with/play with very expensive crap most of us will never even dream > about owning? Even though I only started attending in the early ninties, I > feel there isn't as much there for the little > guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high dollar sh_t that > has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). Nowdays, my favorite place is the > few odd vendors left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. I > guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under the rug once again. > However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the sad faced old > men with more money than skills will quit flying and die. That will cause > EAA to hopfully shrink back to what is was and should be again- a (small) > group of fanatic enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from > napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate sponsorship to get > together and have a little fun once a year. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126885#126885 > > -- David W. Schaefer RV-6A N142DS "Geek One" TMX-IOF360 FADEC, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT EFIS www.n142ds.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:01 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site. What else? Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Schaefer Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:20 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter As much as I didn't want to get involved ... your note was the last straw. I agree completely with Charlie ... this is the RV FORUM .. not the bitch about EAA forum. If you want a bitch about EAA forum go to Yahoo and create an "EAA SUCKS" forum and continue to spout this dribble. OTHERWISE, let's talk about RVs, RV construction etc. OH .. and I've been a member of EAA since 1974 and while I don't like much of what they have become, this is not the place to discuss it. Now flame me all you want! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:56 AM PST US From: "Dale Walter" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism That is very stupid. I am not in favor of abuse or great excess. IMHO comparisons like that and the related logic will be the demise of a nation when it spreads too far. It is a cancer. Dale -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:59 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: > I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a year > compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. As near as I can tell, a sizeable chunk of the people "camping" east of Stits Road fall into that category. I saw our favorite basketball player traded yesterday. He makes $26 million a year. Poberezny had a better year. (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126860#126860 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:01 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter I went to the XP-360 build on Thursday. I was pretty much an engine- ignoramus before this, but now I think I know enough to at least not be completely stupid about them. Just mostly stupid :-) And I had a very nice talk with one of the guys from P-Mag. -J On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Bob Collins wrote: > What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh > this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but > I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the > water on Doug's site. > > What else? > > Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:50 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism I think the original question was reasonable -- is Poberezny overpaid? Comparing his salary to the salary of the presidents of other similarly-sized organizations is a reasonable way of judging his salary. I didn't quite understand the jabowenjr comment, so I ignored it. I think Bob is saying, "Yes, Pober's salary is reasonable." I agree with Bob on that. -J On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:38 AM, Dale Walter wrote: > > That is very stupid. I am not in favor of abuse or great excess. IMHO > comparisons like that and the related logic will be the demise of a > nation > when it spreads too far. It is a cancer. > Dale > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:59 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism > > > > > jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: >> I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a year >> compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. > > > As near as I can tell, a sizeable chunk of the people "camping" > east of > Stits Road fall into that category. > > I saw our favorite basketball player traded yesterday. He makes $26 > million > a year. > > Poberezny had a better year. (g) > > -------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:27 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Bob Collins" dale1rv6(at)comcast.net wrote: > That is very stupid. I am not in favor of abuse or great excess. IMHO > comparisons like that and the related logic will be the demise of a nation > when it spreads too far. It is a cancer. > Dale-- Ah, I don't worry 'bout stuff like that. Global warming, the endof cheap oil, the erosion of constitutional rights, and bacteria run amok will get us before words on an Internet bulletin board will. (g) -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126931#126931 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:39 AM PST US From: "Timothy E. Cone" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism What would Poberezny's salary have to do with RVs? Tim Cone do not achive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism > > I think the original question was reasonable -- is Poberezny > overpaid? Comparing his salary to the salary of the presidents of > other similarly-sized organizations is a reasonable way of judging > his salary. > > I didn't quite understand the jabowenjr comment, so I ignored it. > > I think Bob is saying, "Yes, Pober's salary is reasonable." I agree > with Bob on that. > > -J > > On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:38 AM, Dale Walter wrote: > >> >> That is very stupid. I am not in favor of abuse or great excess. IMHO >> comparisons like that and the related logic will be the demise of a >> nation >> when it spreads too far. It is a cancer. >> Dale >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins >> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:59 AM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism >> >> >> >> >> jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: >>> I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a year >>> compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. >> >> >> As near as I can tell, a sizeable chunk of the people "camping" >> east of >> Stits Road fall into that category. >> >> I saw our favorite basketball player traded yesterday. He makes $26 >> million >> a year. >> >> Poberezny had a better year. (g) >> >> -------- > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:53 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter I really hate to step into this crap again; but, some comments made were a little out of line. > What exactly do you want to "give it a rest" to? The fact > that a measurable amount of the membership of an > organization that is "non-profit" are not overly pleased > with the way their dues are used? The problem is, we can cuss and discuss this issue to death; but, we're preaching to the choir. Our comments, negative and positive, should be sent to the EAA instead of taking up so much space here. How many have used "do not archive" to keep this discussion out of the archives? If one is not happy with an organization, one should let them know. Another alternative is to drop one's membership. I've done both with the EAA, when needed. > Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become > mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play > with very expensive crap most of us will never even > dream about owning? Yes, there is some of that; and, that was one reason I dropped out of the EAA for a couple of years, some years back. However, I have friends who look forward to going to OSH every year, even though they bitch to no end about the cost. I opt to not go. I have yet to attend OSH because it does nothing for me. I did attend Sun-n-Fun a few times; but, I've never had the desire to do OSH. If one doesn't like what goes on there, do as I do. It works for me. Oh, yeah. My friends, for the most part, are far from wealthy. Two I know spend their vacations volunteering so you can have fun there. They can barely afford to attend it, themselves. > Even though I only started attending in the early > ninties, I feel there isn't as much there for the little > guy as there used to be(relative to the amount of high > dollar sh_t that has no relevance to homebuilt aircraft). That is probably true. However, it is one of the places one can go to see the latest in stuff that we can use in our RVs, or any other thing we're building. I used my first couple of trips to Sun-n-Fun to pick out a kit to build. Later on, I used a trip to pick out my avionics. I've made one trip there, since. I may not go to any more of their events; but, they worked for me, when I did attend. Local fly-ins are more to my liking. > Nowdays, my favorite place is the few odd vendors > left in the flymarket that sell old used airplane parts. That's a neat place, if one is looking for rare parts. You won't find those vendors at most fly-ins. > I guess we'll just give it all a rest and sweep it under > the rug once again. You don't have to, if you complain to the source of the problem. We tend to bitch amongst ourselves and do nothing to really confront the problem. If you don't talk with the EAA about what they're doing, they'll continue to think they're still doing OK. When a bunch of us started raising heck about the warbirds, etc., in the magazine, that changed. After a couple of years of being a non-member, I felt the magazine was good enough for me to renew, again. The magazine is my main benefit from the organization. When it no longer appeals to me, I'll complain to the EAA. > However I will win out, as I only in my forties and all the > sad faced old men with more money than skills will quit > flying and die. Remember, we old men make up a goodly portion of GA. However, not all of us old men are rich. In fact, most of the guys I know are considering getting out of aviation, not because of our health. We can no longer justify the cost. If you can, then you must be one of the richer guys you're talking about. The young folks I know can't afford a LSA ticket, much less a private ticket. Owning an airplane is something they can only dream about. The expenses of raising a family take all they have. If you can still afford it, you must be richer than you think. :-) As for the skills, who do you learn your skills from? Mine have come from various sources, to include those older than I am. Will you be enough to back fill what will be lost when us older guys die off? Remember, it's not just the rich old guys who die. We older builders with skills die, as well. > That will cause EAA to hopfully shrink back to what > is was and should be again- a (small) group of fanatic > enthusists that build airplanes with their hands from > napkin drawings and don't need huge multi-corparate > sponsorship to get together and have a little fun once > a year. Unfortunately, you're right about the shrinkage because there won't be enough young people with the incomes and the desire to maintain GA as we know it, today. It will be the rich who will be able to continue aviation, just as it is in Europe, today. You can forget your get togethers because those will be a thing of the past. If you want to see what it will be like, look at the large fly-ins of Europe. A big one there is no larger than one of our local events. Do you think you'd ever see an impromptu RV fly-in draw over 100 airplanes because the pilots just needed something to do? I think not. That shrinkage you speak of will also mean a shrinkage of kits provided to those who want to build; so, we may have to revert back to scratch building to get anything built, provided parts suppliers are not all driven out of business by the lack of business. Just think of all of the jobs that will be lost, if us older guys die off. We'll see GA for the middle class die. Since I'm one of the older guys, I may not live to see that happen, thankfully. My suggestion is that you should watch what you wish for. You may get it and may not like what you get. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) RV-7A #70317 (Building when I get the urge) do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:52 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism If you don't care for the discussion, you can delete it when you see the subject line. I guess I don't understand why some people have such a hard time when a topic of conversation slides a bit. "OMG, those people went off on a tangent onto something I don't care about, so they should shut up." Sigh. -J On Aug 1, 2007, at 10:40 AM, Timothy E. Cone wrote: > > What would Poberezny's salary have to do with RVs? > > Tim Cone > do not achive > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Larson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:24 AM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism > > >> I think the original question was reasonable -- is Poberezny >> overpaid? Comparing his salary to the salary of the presidents >> of other similarly-sized organizations is a reasonable way of >> judging his salary. >> I didn't quite understand the jabowenjr comment, so I ignored it. >> I think Bob is saying, "Yes, Pober's salary is reasonable." I >> agree with Bob on that. >> -J >> On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:38 AM, Dale Walter wrote: >>> >>> That is very stupid. I am not in favor of abuse or great excess. >>> IMHO >>> comparisons like that and the related logic will be the demise of >>> a nation >>> when it spreads too far. It is a cancer. >>> Dale >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 7:59 AM >>> To: rv-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com wrote: >>>> I just don't get how people come to the place where $500,000 + a >>>> year >>>> compensation for CEO's and other business leaders is OK. >>> >>> >>> As near as I can tell, a sizeable chunk of the people "camping" >>> east of >>> Stits Road fall into that category. >>> >>> I saw our favorite basketball player traded yesterday. He makes >>> $26 million >>> a year. >>> >>> Poberezny had a better year. (g) >>> >>> -------- >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:40 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter From: "Bob Collins" > Or are you talking about the fact that Osh has become > mostly a place for wealthy people to buy/pose with/play > with very expensive crap most of us will never even > dream about owning? > I consider myself a working stiff. I'm building a pay-as-you-go airplane. I delivered newspapers for 10years to pay for the project. I'm in year #7 of the build and there'll probably be at least 4 more years of same. I have no clue how I'm going to pay for avionics or an engine. But I'm still building anyway. BEcause there's always hope. I'll bet a lot of the folks described here as concerned about the cost of Oshkosh and the infiltration of the rich, fly a lot more than I can afford to. I'll bet they own a plane. I'll bet they have an engine, I'll bet they have glass panels or are at least taking a step in that direction. In other words -- by my yardstick -- they're rich. So it strikes me as odd to hear the rich lament that they are forced to hang around other rich people once a week. I'll bet the farmer with the old Piper Cub in the barn thinks the same thing about RV owners and builders. And certainly, we've all fought in our communities, the impression that aviaton -- and airports -- are playgrounds for rich boys and their toys. The problem is, they are exactly that because the definition of "rich" most people use is anyone who makes more money than me, or can afford more things, than me. It's all relative. It remains unclear to me what people WANT out of the EAA AirVenture. I mean specifically WHAT? Do they want it to be like it was 20 years ago? Why? Our projects aren't what projects were 20 years ago. When people say "it's not about homebuilding" anymore, I have to ask, what was the fiberglassing workshop about? What was the engine workshops about? What was the forum on registering your homebult about? I helped with a forum on using online resources in your homebuilt project. What was THAT about if not for homebuilders? I could go on and on and on, but I won't because I'm pretty sure the complaint isn't REALLY that it's not for homebuilders anymore; I'm pretty sure the complaint is actually that it's not ONLY for homebuilders anymore. But why is that bad? What EXACTLY are you people NOT getting that you expect to get out of the event? For those of you who went this year, what EXACTLY were you looking to find that you couldn't find for a homebuilder? There's no sense communicating directly with the EAA until we can adequately say exactly WHAT AirVenture should be.... not how p*ssed off you are about the way it is. So what does that constructive suggestion the EAA is looking for look like. BTW, don't think the EAA doesn't want to know. We were visited by our campsite on Tuesday by an EAA staffer who invited me to a feedback forum on what improvements we'd like to see at AirVenture. Unfortunately, having staye dup late to clean up the BBQ, 8:30 on Thursday morning -- which I had agreed to -- didn't meet my abilities to attend. (g) But if I had, "don't suck so bad" wouldn't have been one of my suggestions. I had more productive ones like (a)have more refund lines and (b) have better soap holders in the showers on the list. So, imagine that you WERE in that group. What EXACTLY is on your list besides "don't let the 'rich' people in"? Rich is relative. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126954#126954 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:46 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter The first time I remember ever getting up close to a real airplane was when I was about 14 at the Washington State Fair in probably 1956. There was this beautiful new red Piper Tripacer on display not far from the farm tractors. I remember that it cost $10,000 -- about four times the annual income of our family of five. I didn't know anyone who could afford such a luxury. About 8 years later (less time than I have been working on my RV) I soloed in a T-38, which the Air Force then valued at a million dollars with an operating cost of $1,000 per hour. The unfinished RV-8A in my shop, if finished, would probably cost close to $100,000 to buy. Times change. The rich get poor; the poor get rich; inflation makes everything more expensive, innovation and technology brings us unanticipated benefits at prices unimaginable in our wildest dreams. How many of us expected to be arguing at near real-time with people who share our interests and both please and annoy us around the world about the important and the trivial ten years ago? We privileged few are now the privileged many. Terry ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:16 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter From: "Bob Collins" Terry Watson wrote: > We privileged few are now the privileged many. > Terry Excellent points. The other aspect of the rich and their rich toys -- i.e., the unaffordable production aircraft -- is they're the lab rats for stuff that eventually will make it to the homebuilt folks. GPS, glass panels, autopilots, weather in the cockpit? It all came from the "high" end of aviation and made it to the "low end." In the world of aviation, the homebuilt world and the non-homebuilt world aren't mutually exclusive, imho. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126973#126973 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter From: "Chuck Jensen" This was posted by Dick Finn , canard-aviator list. The discussion on the canard list, which developed independently, while not as robust as the RV discussion, covers many of the same topics and concerns. In sum, the same overarching concerns are being expressed about the EAA mission and focus by many and varied folks, not just a few whiners on the RV list. Chuck Jensen Dick wrote.... I read all the glowing comments on the air show and noticed one thing in common. They all told of how great it was to see old friends, socialize with the other builders at the barbeque, attend the barbeque, dinner, weenie roast, etc. Generally the emails did not say what a wonderful job EAA did and how they enjoyed the rest of the fly in. Everything was related to interactions with a small group of friends. I'm a long time Cozy builder (plans #48) who has been stalled for several years. Still, I do attend the air show every year. When I started I attended all seven days. As the EAA and the show changed, I slowly cut back. This year I went on Thursday by myself and on Friday with my wife and daughter. My overall feeling was a continuation of the disappointment I started feeling several years ago. I would like to point out a few things that I have noticed: - My overall impression is that there are less people attending. I have nothing concrete to go on here, just a general impression. The EAA used to publish attendance figures but I haven't seen them in Sport Aviation for years. In fact, they even used to show the growth rate in rolls of toilet paper consumed. I really believe that attendance is down and has been accelerating its downward trend. Dick Knapinski, I believe you monitor this forum, could you comment? If I'm wrong, I apologize-it is my impression though - It appears to me that there is a steadily accelerating decline in the number of show planes. It used to be the field filled up every year but they advertised that if you have a show plane they would somehow fit you in. This year I saw a disappointingly large number of empty tie down spaces in the show plane area. I don't know if the field ever closed to incoming traffic as it did in the past. - My wife enjoys the war birds but it seemed that there were not that many present this year. - For years the back row in the Fly Mart has been a bit sparse-still, five years ago, it was populated. This year there was a row and a half empty. This is not a big deal but I think it is indicative of a general decline. - There have always been a lot of aircraft "scrap" dealers in the Fly Mart. I only noticed a couple this year. For that matter, the number of tool and general aircraft grade hardware dealers seems to be less. This leaves the impression that the Fly Mart is turning into a general "Flea Market" with only casual relation to aviation. For example, I saw two or three booths selling pots and pans-unbelievably (at least for me) they wanted $1575 for a handful of pots. - Prices seem to be higher and continually rising. Food is the worst example. It appears to me that it costs about $10 for a burger, fries and a Coke. I can get a McDonalds meal at O'Hare for abut $6. A bottle of soda you would pay $1 to $1.25 for a Walgreen's costs $3.25. The little cups of frozen lemonade are now up to $4. This appears to me to be another step down a slippery slope. Failing revenues or simple greed causes them to raise prices. A guy will pay it but feel he is being cheated and then not come back the next year. Lower attendance means lower revenue so they raise the prices further-and so it goes. - I'm seeing more commercial exhibitors now. They are still general aviation but are aimed at the business market. This audience is less focused on costs as many are on expense accounts so I am thinking that this is the direction EAA is moving. - There appeared to me to be less "Big Iron" in Aero Shell Square". Still, the area was crowded with tents. Ford has a huge tent dedicated toward car sales. I don't see much relationship with aviation other than pilots tend to be more "well off" and do buy cars. - I noticed that McDonalds is not there this year (which I thought was a good thing as they seemed to be pushing out the old vendor -Zaug's). When I went down to the Homebuilders area to get some lunch, however, I found they had replaced what I believe to be the last Zaug's outlet with a new vendor. I asked and was told that the EAA was now running the concessions-my assumption was that they could then pocket the full profit. Zaug's used to sell "OK" food at a reasonable price. - We live on the east shore of Lake Winnebago and get the TV news from Green Bay. Years ago they pretty much based the whole week's newscasts around the EAA. This year there were only a couple of stories and I didn't see their broadcast areas set up at the show. On the day of the P51 crash I listened to the radio while pulling out of the parking lot. They had an announcer who had a little information but said they were sending someone in from their Fox Valley newsroom and would report more at 5:30. So, what is my point? I think the EAA is changing for the worse from the perspective of an aviation enthusiast. This is no longer the Convention of the EAA (note that the old name points toward it being a members event) but is now AirVenture (note the change toward a general public or commercial event). The symbol of the EAA is no longer a little homebuilt but a more commercial oriented symbol (a jet). My prediction: 1. The EAA and AirVenture will continue to decline from the point of view of the little guy. 2. There will be an upswing in the number of small aviation fly ins which are not related to the EAA (i.e. Rough River). 3. Groups will merge at these fly in's (The canards all get together as a large group now-this has happened over the past few years). Even the Cozy Dinner is open to all canards now-yes, I consider this a good thing. I think we will see them joined at fly ins by other types. Maybe we will see a fly in for all composite planes which will be joined later by wood and fabric, etc. 4. Fewer builders will attend OSH, instead, going to the other fly ins. Those of us still in the work force only have so much vacation after all. 5. An organization will form to promote the smaller fly ins and provide support to the attendees. Isn't that the way EAA got started? Just some observations, thoughts and my opinion. Dick Finn Dick Finn H: 708-246-8715 C: 708-359-9506 E-Mail: cozy7971@yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:36 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter I went to a similar one several years ago, back when I was planning to go Lycoming (SHOULDA), and was going to build my own. I have extensive notes & pics from that seminar here: http://brian76.mystarband.net/SuperiorTextPics.htm brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter I went to the XP-360 build on Thursday. I was pretty much an engine-ignoramus before this, but now I think I know enough to at least not be completely stupid about them. Just mostly stupid :-) And I had a very nice talk with one of the guys from P-Mag. -J On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Bob Collins wrote: What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site. What else? Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? 5:26 PM ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:13 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Additionally there is Adelphia, Delphi,Tyco, Enron, Home Depot and hundreds of other companies that have paid millions to CEO's to devastate the companies. Not saying they are all bad, but a good majority of them are looking out for their golden parachutes rather than share holder equity. Dan Lloyd N289DT RV10E Flying Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:09 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism Terry Watson wrote: > The "slobs" (presumably C.E.O.s) are often the problem solvers willing to > take the risks necessary to salvage shareholder's equity by trying to save a > dying company. You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. I was thinking specifically of NWA CEO Doug Steenland when I wrote that. Yes, I would put him in the category of "slobs." All he's done is broken unions, ruined families, stranded passengers, and -- oh yeah -- accepted the $26 million dollars for the great job he did running his company into bankruptcy. Sorry. No sale. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=126737#126737 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:50 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: WAS Eaa banter NOW OSH interesting things I attended a seminar on runway homes, which turned out to be a lot about self-directed IRAs, which Id only recently heard about and which seem like a great idea. Not many people know about them, but you can roll your past (not current) IRAs & 401Ks into a self-directed IRA that you can then use to buy real estate, a business, etc, as long as its not to directly benefit you or your direct relatives (so you cant use it to fund your plane). Seems like a good idea. Google self-directed IRA to get tons of info from the net. Having attended about every possible building seminar in the past, I had hoped to re-attend Kent Whites excellent series of seminars on metal forming, but he wasnt doing them this year. Also, his booth in the commercial hangar went unmanned, so I guess something came up for him & he couldnt make it. See http://www.tinmantech.com/ I also re-attended Joe Norris excellent W&B seminar, as well as Joe Gauthiers most excellent seminars on final inspection and flight testing. If you havent attended them, I highly recommend them, as well as a Canadian mans (sorry dont recall his name) excellent and necessary seminar on fuel flow testing. I also attended a paint design seminar, which was quite useful. See http://schemedesigners.com/ for more info. Saw lots of cool LSAs & ultralights, including a very cool one-off custom design http://www.culverprops.com/back-yard-flyer.php Mostly welded construction; quite unique If I had it to do over again, Id get something like this first, then Id have something to fly while I build. I REALLY miss flying, and find myself constantly scheming on how to get an ultralight to fly while I spend at least another year building. I didnt spend much time in the RV area, as Ive already closely examined and photographed about every RV there in past years. I guess Im getting to the construction stage where Ive already bought about everything I need and have done, committed to, or already know what I need to do on all the remaining steps. I saw a cool demo of the Vertical Power product to control all your wiring in one box. Im already past that stage, but it looked promising. Not cheap, but looks like a good product. The owner, Marc Ausman, also helped support the RV BBQ. See http://www.verticalpower.com/ Some very cool jets, but, as my wife said to me when I commented on an especially cool jet, when did you ever see a jet that you DIDNT think was cool? If I won the lottery, Id buy an L-39 and spend 8 hours a day every day training in it. I saw a couple Questair Venture planes, a defunct kit, which were cool picture a stubby, bulbous RV with a Conti 550 engine and retractable gear that goes 240 knots. The $10K Bruce King BK1 was pretty cool, too; also kind of a short, bulbous cross between a Hummelbird and an RV brian http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:28 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site. What else? Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Schaefer Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:20 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter As much as I didn't want to get involved ... your note was the last straw. I agree completely with Charlie ... this is the RV FORUM .. not the bitch about EAA forum. If you want a bitch about EAA forum go to Yahoo and create an "EAA SUCKS" forum and continue to spout this dribble. OTHERWISE, let's talk about RVs, RV construction etc. OH .. and I've been a member of EAA since 1974 and while I don't like much of what they have become, this is not the place to discuss it. Now flame me all you want! 5:26 PM ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter From: Michael W Stewart Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The 35 ship formation w as way cool. Being in it might make me biased. But it was RV cool none the less. OK Ill admit too, that RV on floats was wayy cool too. Mike do not archive What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this y ear, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's s ite. What else? Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:06 PM PST US From: "Jerry Hansen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter Yep, Mike, you probably are understandably biased. But it WAS way cool. Jerry Do not archive _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael W Stewart Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:19 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The 35 ship formation was way cool. Being in it might make me biased. But it was RV cool none the less. OK Ill admit too, that RV on floats was wayy cool too. Mike do not archive What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site. What else? Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:51 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter On 1 Aug 2007, at 15:19, Michael W Stewart wrote: > Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest > formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The > 35 ship formation was way cool. > Congratulations on the very impressive formation work. Looking at the pictures, it is hard to find anyone very far out of position. That is a real credit to the skills of each of the pilots, and to smooth flying by lead. I bet the guys who flew the B-17s and B-24s during WWII might disagree with you that 35 aircraft in formation was the largest ever. Their formations weren't as tightly spaced, but they were quite intricately choreographed, and no less difficult than yours. The records seem to show formations of more than 50 B-17s or B-24s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_box I think I've also seen some pictures of very large formations during various flypasts to celebrate the end of WWII, and the Soviet May Day celebrations seemed to have quite large formations too. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:34 PM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: RV-List: XP Assembly Thanks for posting, Brian..I'm keeping that website handy. Brian Meyette wrote: I went to a similar one several years ago, back when I was planning to go Lycoming (SHOULDA), and was going to build my own. I have extensive notes & pics from that seminar here: http://brian76.mystarband.net/SuperiorTextPics.htm brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter I went to the XP-360 build on Thursday. I was pretty much an engine-ignoramus before this, but now I think I know enough to at least not be completely stupid about them. Just mostly stupid :-) And I had a very nice talk with one of the guys from P-Mag. -J On Aug 1, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Bob Collins wrote: What is the most interesting RV-related thing you saw at Oshkosh this year, folks? I didn't get a chance to see the RV on floats but I'd seen the pictures of it. Smitty has some pictures of it in the water on Doug's site. What else? Forums? Anybody learn anything at a forum? - The RV-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:21 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter I think you got that backwards. We are the lab rats for the gadgets that eventually make it into the certified planes most of the time. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:59 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter Excellent points. The other aspect of the rich and their rich toys -- i.e., the unaffordable production aircraft -- is they're the lab rats for stuff that eventually will make it to the homebuilt folks. GPS, glass panels, autopilots, weather in the cockpit? It all came from the "high" end of aviation and made it to the "low end." ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:34 PM PST US From: "dick martin" Subject: Re: RV-List: Electronic Ignition Dave, et al, I now have 1500 hours on Dual Lightspeed Ign. 8 years ago, I experienced coil failures, not controller failures. My controllers and coils are mounted on the firewall. I changed to GM coils and no problem since. I think that the coil failures were caused by radiated heat from exhaust pipes etc. I do have a Sam James Cowl and plenum, and fuel injection. Dick Martin N233M RV8 Looking forward the AirVenture Race sunday. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Schaefer To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: RV-List: Electronic Ignition I saw a brand new Lightspeed fail this weekend .. most probably due to heat under the cowl since it eventually re-set. The aircraft had mags on one side ... so no big deal. However, wouldn't you think that the current generation of electronic ignitions would take into account that under the cowl on an airplane is HOT and make some sort of consideration? It's my understanding that the vast majority of these ignitions controllers are installed on the fire-wall? Anyone else had any ideas, recommendations here? I think these are great electronic ignition systems and am looking to install a pair on an aircraft .. but it was an old fashioned MAG that got us back to the airport! -- David W. Schaefer RV-6A N142DS "Geek One" TMX-IOF360 FADEC, Hartzell Blended Airfoil, GRT EFIS www.n142ds.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:04 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism From: "AirMike" I do not begruge Tom a cent of what he earns. I see him as CEO of a major corporation. As one who actually ran a company with 10 employees, I feel that I can truly appreciate the amazing job that he does each year with Airventure. It is the premier aviation event in the US and possibly the world. The planning, logistics, and just schmoozing to get the talent Tom does, wired into the event, is fantastic. Joe whinner is not going to be able to get Steve Fossett, Chuck Yeager, Bob Hoover, or the multitude of volunteers show up for Airventure. Plus he is caring and involved with the actual attendees. Last year my wife (who was just out of hip surgery) and I were running to catch a bus which had left us behind. Tom and his wife actually stopped to pick us up and take us to our destination. Only a fool can challenge the success the Tom and EAA management have had in promoting the Sport Aviation initiative. Kuddos to Tom and EAA management. A proud EAA member #778398 -------- OSH '08 or Bust Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127075#127075 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:28 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowles" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: EAA Criticism - Oshkosh HI BOB, & EVERYONE, GUESS I HAD MY HEAD IN THE SAND. I ENJOYED EVERY MINUTE OF OSH. HOMEBUILTS, WARBIRDS, TRANSPORTS, FORMATIONS, VENDORS, PEOPLE, THE BBQ (THANKS LOADS, BOB, GREAT FOOD & FELLOWSHIP), THE ICECREAM, AND EVEN THE RAIN (CAUGHT IN A DRY SPOT WITH A GUY WHO HAD PUT HIS RV6 IN A FIELD AFTER AN ENGINE OUT--GREAT CONVERSATION). THE COST WAS BEARABLE, THE HEAT WASN'T BAD, THE TRIP UP FROM TEXAS AND BACK WAS GREAT. I JUST CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING TO B__CH ABOUT EXCEPT MY FEET GOT REALLY TIRED EVERY DAY AND I ONLY GOT TO ATTEND 3 DAYS. LARRY BOWLES RV7A AUSTIN, TEXAS ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:19 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter OK, would you believe it's the "smallest" 35 aircraft formation ever. (Note I did not use the word "ship" as that might lead to dingbats in dingy's OR going to the Ship vs Boat post argument again). Kevin: We still have a warm one for ya'll. 8*) KABONG Do Not Archive. HRII & HR .II both N561FS. >From: Kevin Horton >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Eaa banter >On 1 Aug 2007, at 15:19, Michael W Stewart wrote: > >> Id say the most interesting RV thing at OSH was the largest >> formation they have ever seen, and we think ever done anyhere. The >> 35 ship formation was way cool. >> >I bet the guys who flew the B-17s and B-24s during WWII might >disagree with you that 35 aircraft in formation was the largest >ever. Their formations weren't as tightly spaced, but they were >quite intricately choreographed, and no less difficult than yours. >The records seem to show formations of more than 50 B-17s or B-24s. > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:59 PM PST US From: "Lamar Lawson" Subject: RV-List: airventure 2007 - What's all the fuss?! I really had a great time. My wife and i have gone every year since we have been dating. over the years we have learned how to save a few bucks, we stop at the store and buy water, breakfast supplies, and sandwich makings. We only eat out at night and we carry a backpack full of water and snacks. I think with airfare, camping, rental car, 3 days of the show, and what not; we maybe spent $600 bucks. I really would like to thank Bob and Darwin for the cook out. Thanks guys. oh and for the guy that asked me last year if i was GMCJetPilot, here is your answer. http://www.myspace.com/gmcjetpilot i found this on one of the other lists so i cant take the credit. Im sure he'll be pulling the site down shortly since he has been found out. LOL GMCJetPilot I welcome all input, even yours. What did I like about AirVenture? BOB F#ing Hoover!! just to sit and listen to the guy is a real experience. I thought there were tons of vendors there this year. I think this was the first time I did not see everything I wanted to see. The show attendance seemed light but i think that was due to the weather and also it seemed everyone hit the show early this year. I talked to the guy i purchased my engine from and he said he had paid for them being at the show by noon on monday!! what is bad about that? Bob C. shoot me an email off list. We never got to finish our conversation about how much coax you need. Lamar@TakeFlightTexas.com Lamar RV7A ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:51 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: airventure 2007 - What's all the fuss?! From: "Bob Collins" lamar(at)takeflighttexas. wrote: > > I really would like to thank Bob and Darwin for the cook out. Thanks guys. I was in the middle of putting a slideshow together late this afternoon with about 120 picturs that my pal, Warren STarkebaum, took of the bbq. Then the bridge in Minneapolis collapsed and I had to do my day job. http://minnesota.publicradio.org > > oh and for the guy that asked me last year if i was GMCJetPilot, here is > your answer. http://www.myspace.com/gmcjetpilot > i found this on one of the other lists so i cant take the credit. > I can. I took it and the folks who've been plastering it all over the Internet haven't credited me (let alone ask for permission). But, yeah, that's John Porter right there. Funniest guy I ever met. The original is on my Letters From Flyover Country blog. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127098#127098 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:51 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Official RV-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains RV-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: rv-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "rv-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the RV-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the RV-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/rv-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all RV-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the RV-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * RV-List.FAQ - Latest version of the RV-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * RV-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * RV-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * RV-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * RV-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the RV-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the RV-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?RV ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:16 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Official RV-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:39 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: airventure 2007 - What's all the fuss?! From: "Bob Collins" My error, I thought the GMCJetpilot link was going to the now infamous image. Anyway, say, lamar, I forgot to recognize you and Nina at the BBQ. It seemed only right to applaud you on your wedding. So here's a virtual one instead. Shoot. I'm sorry. next year we'll observe your first anniversary. Will get to you on the side regarding that cable. But I'll take what youv'e got left. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=127101#127101 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.