---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/28/07: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:04 AM - Wing wiring conduit (Carl Bell) 2. 07:28 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Bruce Gray) 3. 07:36 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Sam Buchanan) 4. 07:47 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Marty Helller) 5. 08:06 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Darrell Reiley) 6. 08:47 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Sam Buchanan) 7. 09:41 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 8. 09:52 AM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Darrell Reiley) 9. 11:15 AM - fun last Saturday (Frazier, Vincent A) 10. 12:11 PM - Re: fun last Saturday (Brian Meyette) 11. 12:23 PM - Re: fun last Saturday (Robin Marks) 12. 12:43 PM - Re: fun last Saturday (Chuck Weyant) 13. 12:44 PM - Re: fun last Saturday (Bob Collins) 14. 12:55 PM - pvc pipe (Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty) 15. 01:05 PM - Re: fun last Saturday (Bob Collins) 16. 01:21 PM - Re: pvc pipe (Sam Buchanan) 17. 01:40 PM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (linn Walters) 18. 01:54 PM - Re: fun last Saturday (Chuck Jensen) 19. 03:11 PM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Michael D. Cencula) 20. 08:16 PM - Re: Wing wiring conduit (Dave Nellis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:18 AM PST US From: "Carl Bell" Subject: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Has anyone used any sort of wing wiring duct for the menagerie of wires coming from the wing tip lights, antenna, auto pilot, etc. If so could you tell me what and where to find it? Thx CJ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:13 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Local hardware store, flexible PVC tubing. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Bell Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:03 AM Subject: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Has anyone used any sort of wing wiring duct for the menagerie of wires coming from the wing tip lights, antenna, auto pilot, etc. If so could you tell me what and where to find it? Thx CJ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:42 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Carl Bell wrote: > Has anyone used any sort of wing wiring duct for the menagerie of wires > coming from the wing tip lights, antenna, auto pilot, etc. If so could you > tell me what and where to find it? Thx CJ > Lightweight PVC pipe from your local building supply store. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:12 AM PST US From: "Marty Helller" Subject: RE: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit 1" pvc pipe....available in 10' lenghts at the Lowe or Home Depot aviation isle >From: "Carl Bell" >To: >Subject: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:03:15 -0400 > >Has anyone used any sort of wing wiring duct for the menagerie of wires >coming from the wing tip lights, antenna, auto pilot, etc. If so could you >tell me what and where to find it? Thx CJ > > _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:52 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Carl,=0A=0AI like the light weight stuff Van's sells.=0A=0ADarrell=0A=0A--- -- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Carl Bell =0ATo: rv-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:03:15 AM=0ASubjec t: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit=0A=0A=0AHas anyone used any sort of wing wi ring duct for the menagerie of wires coming from the wing tip lights, anten na, auto pilot, etc. If so could you tell me what and where to find it? Th =====0A=0A=0A =0A____________________________________________ ________________________________________=0APinpoint customers who are looki ng for what you sell. =0Ahttp://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:03 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Darrell Reiley wrote: > Carl, > > I like the light weight stuff Van's sells. An advantage of the PVC pipe, besides being inexpensive, light, and readily available, is the smooth interior which makes it *much* easier to push wire through the conduit. I glued a coupling to each end of the pipe outboard of the root and tip ribs to hold the pipe in place. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:03 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Look no further than the Plumbing aisle at your local Lowes Depot- see: _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4868_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4868) Lots more in the archives on this topic... >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark _http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/_ (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/) (http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4868) http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:13 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit I think both ideas are great. The split in the product Van's sell helps with wire drop outs for autopilots, landing lights etc... I just used a vacuum cleaner, taped a ball of cotton to the wires and sucked them through the conduit. A small dab of anti-corrosive silicone holds everything nice and tight. Darrell ----- Original Message ---- From: Sam Buchanan Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:46:00 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Darrell Reiley wrote: > Carl, > > I like the light weight stuff Van's sells. An advantage of the PVC pipe, besides being inexpensive, light, and readily available, is the smooth interior which makes it *much* easier to push wire through the conduit. I glued a coupling to each end of the pipe outboard of the root and tip ribs to hold the pipe in place. Sam Buchanan Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:39 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: fun last Saturday From: "Frazier, Vincent A" Check this out. These are 100% real events from my life. If this stuff ticks you off, please do something about it. I suggest writing your elected officials, protesting in front of their offices, etc. This is every bit as dangerous to aviation as user fees. And if you don't agree, just look how long there has been a TFR around Washington D.C. now. Do you think we'll ever be allowed to fly there again? Now it appears that even legal flights are becoming illegal. Vince ******************************* August 28, 2007 The Honorable Evan Bayh United States Senate 131 Russell Senate Office Building Washington, D.C. 20510-1404 Dear Senator Bayh: I am contacting you regarding a totally unacceptable event which occurred to me and a friend on Saturday, August 25, 2007. I own a plane which I use for traveling throughout the Midwest. On Saturday I flew from Evansville, IN to Benton Harbor, MI and then on to Houghton Lake , MI. I was accompanied by a friend, who was flying his own plane. Both planes also carried one passenger. After assisting our passengers, who were in Houghton Lake to purchase an aircraft, my friend and I departed and flew back to Benton Harbor, MI. Within minutes of landing at Benton Harbor, we were detained by 2 well armed police officers who were acting under the direction of Homeland Security. Homeland Security had received a report of aircraft flying near the Palisades nuclear power plant, apparently from an observer at the plant whose job is to watch for aircraft. The police officers asked for our identification and recorded the registration numbers on our aircraft. The police officers had no real indication if they were looking for our aircraft or some other aircraft(s) who may have been the real target. They relayed this information to Homeland Security, who gave the officers physical descriptions of me and my friend to confirm our identities. The officers departed after confirming our identities. We were given no explanations as to why we were detained other than that we had flown past the power plant, a flight that is perfectly legal to do as I will explain below. Detainment of law abiding citizens is completely unacceptable to me and should be to you also. First, I realize that many areas were off limits to aircraft after 9/11 and that nuclear power plants were previously under TFRs (temporary flight restrictions, issued by the FAA, often at the advise of Homeland Security). These TFRs were rescinded long ago. In their place is FAA advisory 4/0811 (reprinted below my letter for your convenience) that admonished pilots avoid these areas anyway. An FAA advisory has no enforcement teeth. However, FARs (federal aviation regulations) do have teeth. The FARs (also reprinted at the end of this letter) state that "aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." This is the primary rule regarding flight in uncontrolled airspace. The airspace around the Palisades nuclear power plant is uncontrolled. In fact, the plant isn't even shown on the FAA approved sectional map used for navigation. And we were never within 500 feet of any part of the plant. Because of the now rescinded TFRs and the current 4/0811 advisory I knew EXACTLY how close I flew to the Palisades nuclear plant. As we descended to land at Benton Harbor, traveling in a straight line with no turns, our planes passed the plant at over 2500' AGL (above ground level) and over 1 mile away. We were traveling at 175 mph, it could hardly be claimed that we were loitering. This situation beats the standard and intent of the FARs and the advisory by anyone's interpretation! While a 500,000 pound airliner going 500 mph might be able to burn down a skyscraper, general aviation aircraft like mine that rarely weigh more than 2000 pounds and rarely go faster than 200 mph are hardly a threat to anything or anyone except the pilot and passengers! Certainly our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant! Considering that the United States of America is now home to 12,000,000 illegal immigrants who include a large percentage of criminals, terrorists, uneducated individuals, and other undesirables I demand to know why Homeland Security is wasting time by detaining law abiding citizens!? In closing I'd really like to see the following actions from your office: 1) Tell me what you are doing, or will do in the very near future to keep law abiding pilots like myself from having our name added to some data base kept in the bowels of some Homeland Security office. 2) Restructure Homeland Security immediately to deal with the HUGE problem of illegal immigration. Otherwise Homeland Security needs to be abolished since they seem to have no other real function aside from harassing law abiding citizens. 3) Contact the NRC and Homeland Security and find out why they require power plants to have employees who are apparently paid to "bird watch" all day long. While you're asking them why they have these positions, find out what type of training these "birdwatchers" have. Can they really tell what a threat looks like? Obviously not! The United States of America was built on freedom, not on detaining law abiding citizens. Furthermore, it was built by legal immigrants, not by undesirables infiltrating at will. Do something about it! Sincerely, Vince Frazier 3965 Caborn Road Mount Vernon, IN 47620 812-464-1839 daytime FDC 4/0811 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE... THIS IS A RESTATEMENT OF A PREVIOUSLY ISSUED ADVISORY NOTICE. IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, OR IN PROXIMITY TO SUCH SITES AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES AND OTHER SIMILAR FACILITIES. PILOTS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES. FAR Sec. 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:05 PM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: fun last Saturday Well written, Vince, and I agree with your sentiments brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frazier, Vincent A Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: RV-List: fun last Saturday Check this out. These are 100% real events from my life. If this stuff ticks you off, please do something about it. I suggest writing your elected officials, protesting in front of their offices, etc. This is every bit as dangerous to aviation as user fees. And if you don't agree, just look how long there has been a TFR around Washington D.C. now. Do you think we'll ever be allowed to fly there again? Now it appears that even legal flights are becoming illegal. Vince ******************************* August 28, 2007 The Honorable Evan Bayh United States Senate 131 Russell Senate Office Building Washington, D.C. 20510-1404 Dear Senator Bayh: I am contacting you regarding a totally unacceptable event which occurred to me and a friend on Saturday, August 25, 2007. I own a plane which I use for traveling throughout the Midwest. On Saturday I flew from Evansville, IN to Benton Harbor, MI and then on to Houghton Lake , MI. I was accompanied by a friend, who was flying his own plane. Both planes also carried one passenger. After assisting our passengers, who were in Houghton Lake to purchase an aircraft, my friend and I departed and flew back to Benton Harbor, MI. Within minutes of landing at Benton Harbor, we were detained by 2 well armed police officers who were acting under the direction of Homeland Security. Homeland Security had received a report of aircraft flying near the Palisades nuclear power plant, apparently from an observer at the plant whose job is to watch for aircraft. The police officers asked for our identification and recorded the registration numbers on our aircraft. The police officers had no real indication if they were looking for our aircraft or some other aircraft(s) who may have been the real target. They relayed this information to Homeland Security, who gave the officers physical descriptions of me and my friend to confirm our identities. The officers departed after confirming our identities. We were given no explanations as to why we were detained other than that we had flown past the power plant, a flight that is perfectly legal to do as I will explain below. Detainment of law abiding citizens is completely unacceptable to me and should be to you also. First, I realize that many areas were off limits to aircraft after 9/11 and that nuclear power plants were previously under TFRs (temporary flight restrictions, issued by the FAA, often at the advise of Homeland Security). These TFRs were rescinded long ago. In their place is FAA advisory 4/0811 (reprinted below my letter for your convenience) that admonished pilots avoid these areas anyway. An FAA advisory has no enforcement teeth. However, FARs (federal aviation regulations) do have teeth. The FARs (also reprinted at the end of this letter) state that "aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." This is the primary rule regarding flight in uncontrolled airspace. The airspace around the Palisades nuclear power plant is uncontrolled. In fact, the plant isn't even shown on the FAA approved sectional map used for navigation. And we were never within 500 feet of any part of the plant. Because of the now rescinded TFRs and the current 4/0811 advisory I knew EXACTLY how close I flew to the Palisades nuclear plant. As we descended to land at Benton Harbor, traveling in a straight line with no turns, our planes passed the plant at over 2500' AGL (above ground level) and over 1 mile away. We were traveling at 175 mph, it could hardly be claimed that we were loitering. This situation beats the standard and intent of the FARs and the advisory by anyone's interpretation! While a 500,000 pound airliner going 500 mph might be able to burn down a skyscraper, general aviation aircraft like mine that rarely weigh more than 2000 pounds and rarely go faster than 200 mph are hardly a threat to anything or anyone except the pilot and passengers! Certainly our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant! Considering that the United States of America is now home to 12,000,000 illegal immigrants who include a large percentage of criminals, terrorists, uneducated individuals, and other undesirables I demand to know why Homeland Security is wasting time by detaining law abiding citizens!? In closing I'd really like to see the following actions from your office: 1) Tell me what you are doing, or will do in the very near future to keep law abiding pilots like myself from having our name added to some data base kept in the bowels of some Homeland Security office. 2) Restructure Homeland Security immediately to deal with the HUGE problem of illegal immigration. Otherwise Homeland Security needs to be abolished since they seem to have no other real function aside from harassing law abiding citizens. 3) Contact the NRC and Homeland Security and find out why they require power plants to have employees who are apparently paid to "bird watch" all day long. While you're asking them why they have these positions, find out what type of training these "birdwatchers" have. Can they really tell what a threat looks like? Obviously not! The United States of America was built on freedom, not on detaining law abiding citizens. Furthermore, it was built by legal immigrants, not by undesirables infiltrating at will. Do something about it! Sincerely, Vince Frazier 3965 Caborn Road Mount Vernon, IN 47620 812-464-1839 daytime FDC 4/0811 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE... THIS IS A RESTATEMENT OF A PREVIOUSLY ISSUED ADVISORY NOTICE. IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, OR IN PROXIMITY TO SUCH SITES AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES AND OTHER SIMILAR FACILITIES. PILOTS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES. FAR Sec. 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. 6:20 PM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: fun last Saturday From: "Robin Marks" This is one of many reasons I prefer the legal MINIMUM size N number on my planes. Also of note, part of my local "tour" for friends & guests is to fly around this beautiful ocean front point (North of Vandenberg, South of Big Sur). Of course this is also home to a Nuclear power plant so I tend to fly in a straight line and avoid any appearance of loitering. That being said half of all local flight training occurs within a mile or two of this plant. That includes hours of stalls, slow flight, standard & steep turn training. Often several aircraft at a time. Robin N413RV ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:11 PM PST US From: "Chuck Weyant" Subject: Re: RV-List: fun last Saturday You go dude. Couldn't have said it better myself. Freedoms are eroding and few seem to care. Lots of men (and women) have died to protect those freedoms. Now little by little we're allowing the government to take 'em under the guise of protecting us. Chuck Certainly our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant! Considering that the United States of America is now home to 12,000,000 illegal immigrants who include a large percentage of criminals, terrorists, uneducated individuals, and other undesirables I demand to know why Homeland Security is wasting time by detaining law abiding citizens!? In closing I'd really like to see the following actions from your office: 1) Tell me what you are doing, or will do in the very near future to keep law abiding pilots like myself from having our name added to some data base kept in the bowels of some Homeland Security office. 2) Restructure Homeland Security immediately to deal with the HUGE problem of illegal immigration. Otherwise Homeland Security needs to be abolished since they seem to have no other real function aside from harassing law abiding citizens. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:56 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: fun last Saturday From: "Bob Collins" What's weird here is that the original message did NOT make it to the Web interface. Not sure why that is. But to this point. You know, years ago when these rights were being proposed and taken away in the post-911 "ready-fire-aim" mentality, people who said this would be a problem were told, "hey, if you didn't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about." Kinda late now to change things. This is what happens when a country is run by fear. Lamentable, indeed. And entirely preventable. We just chose to give up our liberties. Do not archive -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131436#131436 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:00 PM PST US From: "Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty" Subject: RV-List: pvc pipe Sam, I like your idea on the coupling for the PVC pipe to hold the pipe in place for the wing wiring. Did you use in t-couplings inside the wing? Also, thanks to the Possum Works for his good idea's on the 5/8 inch PVC pipe. Great. Jim Fogarty RV9a ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:39 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: fun last Saturday From: "Bob Collins" chuck(at)chuckdirect.com wrote: > > Certainly our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant! > But this is the mistake we always make when the freedoms that get eroded are "ours." We basically say to people, "your fears are unfounded." The whole point of terrorism isn't to destroy a country, it's to erode the sense of safety. That's what terror is. The government knows that too, that's why all the anti-terrorism crusade is such a show. The port security sucks. Why? Because although it's probably more important than any other gaping hole right now, the average person doesn't "see" it. They see airplanes. So the big show is at the airport, while busses and trains -- more traditional targets of bombers -- have no such show going on. In theory, VERY few of us are likely to be "victims" of terrorists. They just want us to "think" we are and, usually, that's good enough. We'll take care of the rest. The woman who called about the plane was afraid, thanks to the climate in the country. Sure, we could waste time telling her her fears aren't real, but she's not going to believe it. To me, it's really a "horse has already left the barn" situation. Politicians have played on the irrational fears of people just like that lady to get -- and stay -- in office. OTOH, keep in mind that it wasn't an airplane hitting a building that caused all this. It was a 99-cent boxcutter. Who knew that a handful of themt could be used to bring down two large buildings, put the world's greatest economy into a recession, and start a war that will kill an additional 3,500 people. It's all so sad but it's hear to stay. The only way to stay out of the soup now is not to fly near nuke plants, I guess. -------- Bob Collins St. Paul, Minn. RV Builder's Hotline (free!) http://rvhotline.expercraft.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=131441#131441 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:36 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: pvc pipe Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty wrote: > Sam, I like your idea on the coupling for the PVC pipe to hold the > pipe in place for the wing wiring. Did you use in t-couplings inside > the wing? Also, thanks to the Possum Works for his good idea's on > the 5/8 inch PVC pipe. Great. > > Jim Fogarty RV9a Thanks Jim, the idea certainly did not originate with me. :-) I didn't use a tee mid-wing but I see no reason why you couldn't. When I added the LRI I *carefully* cut a hole in the PVC mid-wing with a Dremel so I could add the lines for the LRI probe. An existing tee would have saved a few minutes. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:16 PM PST US From: linn Walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit Most of the time wire doesn't like to be pushed. If you have room at one end, use your shop vac to suck a pulling string through the conduit. A small piece of foam or even a piece of paper towel tied on the end of the string is all you need. Linn Sam Buchanan wrote: > > Darrell Reiley wrote: > >> Carl, >> >> I like the light weight stuff Van's sells. > > > An advantage of the PVC pipe, besides being inexpensive, light, and > readily available, is the smooth interior which makes it *much* easier > to push wire through the conduit. I glued a coupling to each end of > the pipe outboard of the root and tip ribs to hold the pipe in place. > > Sam Buchanan > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: fun last Saturday From: "Chuck Jensen" A badge on the chest and a gun on the hip makes ordinary people go insane....at least without a lot of education and training. Bureaucrats are equipped with both badge and gun, at least symbolically, even if they are not physically present, thus sane behavior is not to be expected in all cases. In this immediate instance, I can say with certainty that nuclear plants do not have a "bird watcher" job. Certainly, if there is a plane that does loiter at low elevation in the vicinity of the plant, they'll take notice as they apparently did in this case. (Speculation begins here) They probably picked up their HS hotline and reported that a plane was loitering in the area of the plant at a low altitude. When asked to describe the plane, they responded that it had an engine, tail and two wings. Since you were next to land and you EXACTLY met the description, you became a participant to a meeting with Officialdom without a prior appointment. Know this; you will make some gumshoe's daily report as proof that they are busy averting "terrorism by small aircraft" and that the world is safer because of their unstinting vigilance (or is that vigilantism). Of course, if you were smuggling a monkey under your hat, they would have let you pass without questioning. Sweeeet, isn't it? Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Meyette Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: fun last Saturday Well written, Vince, and I agree with your sentiments brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Frazier, Vincent A Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: RV-List: fun last Saturday Check this out. These are 100% real events from my life. If this stuff ticks you off, please do something about it. I suggest writing your elected officials, protesting in front of their offices, etc. This is every bit as dangerous to aviation as user fees. And if you don't agree, just look how long there has been a TFR around Washington D.C. now. Do you think we'll ever be allowed to fly there again? Now it appears that even legal flights are becoming illegal. Vince ******************************* August 28, 2007 The Honorable Evan Bayh United States Senate 131 Russell Senate Office Building Washington, D.C. 20510-1404 Dear Senator Bayh: I am contacting you regarding a totally unacceptable event which occurred to me and a friend on Saturday, August 25, 2007. I own a plane which I use for traveling throughout the Midwest. On Saturday I flew from Evansville, IN to Benton Harbor, MI and then on to Houghton Lake , MI. I was accompanied by a friend, who was flying his own plane. Both planes also carried one passenger. After assisting our passengers, who were in Houghton Lake to purchase an aircraft, my friend and I departed and flew back to Benton Harbor, MI. Within minutes of landing at Benton Harbor, we were detained by 2 well armed police officers who were acting under the direction of Homeland Security. Homeland Security had received a report of aircraft flying near the Palisades nuclear power plant, apparently from an observer at the plant whose job is to watch for aircraft. The police officers asked for our identification and recorded the registration numbers on our aircraft. The police officers had no real indication if they were looking for our aircraft or some other aircraft(s) who may have been the real target. They relayed this information to Homeland Security, who gave the officers physical descriptions of me and my friend to confirm our identities. The officers departed after confirming our identities. We were given no explanations as to why we were detained other than that we had flown past the power plant, a flight that is perfectly legal to do as I will explain below. Detainment of law abiding citizens is completely unacceptable to me and should be to you also. First, I realize that many areas were off limits to aircraft after 9/11 and that nuclear power plants were previously under TFRs (temporary flight restrictions, issued by the FAA, often at the advise of Homeland Security). These TFRs were rescinded long ago. In their place is FAA advisory 4/0811 (reprinted below my letter for your convenience) that admonished pilots avoid these areas anyway. An FAA advisory has no enforcement teeth. However, FARs (federal aviation regulations) do have teeth. The FARs (also reprinted at the end of this letter) state that "aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." This is the primary rule regarding flight in uncontrolled airspace. The airspace around the Palisades nuclear power plant is uncontrolled. In fact, the plant isn't even shown on the FAA approved sectional map used for navigation. And we were never within 500 feet of any part of the plant. Because of the now rescinded TFRs and the current 4/0811 advisory I knew EXACTLY how close I flew to the Palisades nuclear plant. As we descended to land at Benton Harbor, traveling in a straight line with no turns, our planes passed the plant at over 2500' AGL (above ground level) and over 1 mile away. We were traveling at 175 mph, it could hardly be claimed that we were loitering. This situation beats the standard and intent of the FARs and the advisory by anyone's interpretation! While a 500,000 pound airliner going 500 mph might be able to burn down a skyscraper, general aviation aircraft like mine that rarely weigh more than 2000 pounds and rarely go faster than 200 mph are hardly a threat to anything or anyone except the pilot and passengers! Certainly our aircraft were NO threat to a nuclear power plant! Considering that the United States of America is now home to 12,000,000 illegal immigrants who include a large percentage of criminals, terrorists, uneducated individuals, and other undesirables I demand to know why Homeland Security is wasting time by detaining law abiding citizens!? In closing I'd really like to see the following actions from your office: 1) Tell me what you are doing, or will do in the very near future to keep law abiding pilots like myself from having our name added to some data base kept in the bowels of some Homeland Security office. 2) Restructure Homeland Security immediately to deal with the HUGE problem of illegal immigration. Otherwise Homeland Security needs to be abolished since they seem to have no other real function aside from harassing law abiding citizens. 3) Contact the NRC and Homeland Security and find out why they require power plants to have employees who are apparently paid to "bird watch" all day long. While you're asking them why they have these positions, find out what type of training these "birdwatchers" have. Can they really tell what a threat looks like? Obviously not! The United States of America was built on freedom, not on detaining law abiding citizens. Furthermore, it was built by legal immigrants, not by undesirables infiltrating at will. Do something about it! Sincerely, Vince Frazier 3965 Caborn Road Mount Vernon, IN 47620 812-464-1839 daytime FDC 4/0811 FDC ...SPECIAL NOTICE... THIS IS A RESTATEMENT OF A PREVIOUSLY ISSUED ADVISORY NOTICE. IN THE INTEREST OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE EXTENT PRACTICABLE, PILOTS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID THE AIRSPACE ABOVE, OR IN PROXIMITY TO SUCH SITES AS POWER PLANTS (NUCLEAR, HYDRO-ELECTRIC, OR COAL), DAMS, REFINERIES, INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES, MILITARY FACILITIES AND OTHER SIMILAR FACILITIES. PILOTS SHOULD NOT CIRCLE AS TO LOITER IN THE VICINITY OVER THESE TYPES OF FACILITIES. FAR Sec. 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. (b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. (c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. - The RV-List Email Forum - ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:21 PM PST US From: "Michael D. Cencula" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit On Tuesday August 28 2007 10:03:15 am Carl Bell wrote: > Has anyone used any sort of wing wiring duct for the menagerie of wires > coming from the wing tip lights, antenna, auto pilot, etc. If so could you > tell me what and where to find it? Thx CJ A few thoughts: 1. If you use the thin walled PVC pipe (7/8 OD), you can slide the conduit into the wing *after* the bottom skin is on, so you don't have to worry about bucking around an already in-place conduit. 2. If you plan the location correctly, it should be possible to use a continuous piece of conduit that goes all the way from the wingtip into the center of the fuselage. See http://www.our7a.com/20070331.html 3. As others have mentioned, the PVC conduit is smoother and may make it easier to slide wires through. On the downside, it's heavier though. Happy building, Mike Cencula ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:47 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit To refine your cotton ball "mouse" (that's what we electricians call it), use a baggie instead. Make a small balloon in one corner and tie the balloon off with a piece of string. Leave long tails on the string and tie the wires to the tails. Poke a small hole in the plastic bag near the tie. Suck it through with a vacuum. The suction pressure differential and the small hole inflate the bag creating a seal. Don't wrap your fingers around the wire, because that baggie balloon will fly though the conduit like a shotand take your fingers with it. Dave --- Darrell Reiley wrote: > > > I think both ideas are great. The split in the > product Van's sell helps with wire drop outs for > autopilots, landing lights etc... I just used a > vacuum cleaner, taped a ball of cotton to the wires > and sucked them through the conduit. A small dab of > anti-corrosive silicone holds everything nice and > tight. > > Darrell > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Sam Buchanan > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:46:00 AM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing wiring conduit > > > > > Darrell Reiley wrote: > > Carl, > > > > I like the light weight stuff Van's sells. > > An advantage of the PVC pipe, besides being > inexpensive, light, and > readily available, is the smooth interior which > makes it *much* easier > to push wire through the conduit. I glued a coupling > to each end of the > pipe outboard of the root and tip ribs to hold the > pipe in place. > > Sam Buchanan > > > > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Web Forums! > > > > > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.