Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:16 AM - [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle)
1. 01:39 PM - Volunteer needed! We'll fit your composite top, no charge (Dave Saylor)
2. 01:42 PM - Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Valovich, Paul)
3. 02:13 PM - Re: Volunteer needed! We'll fit your composite top, no charge (MLWynn@aol.com)
4. 02:33 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Charlie England)
5. 02:51 PM - Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard (Ralph Finch)
6. 03:28 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (bobperk90658@bellsouth.net)
7. 03:46 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (linn Walters)
8. 03:56 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dale Walter)
9. 04:04 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Terry Watson)
10. 04:53 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Garry)
11. 05:01 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Andy Gold)
12. 06:11 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Terry Watson)
13. 06:24 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis)
14. 07:19 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (panhandler1956)
15. 07:36 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
16. 07:39 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (John W. Cox)
17. 07:51 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (linn Walters)
18. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
Message 0
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| Subject: | [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! |
Dear Listers,
Its November 30th and that means a couple of things. Its my 44th birthday for
one, but I'm trying to forget about that... But, it also means that its that
last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser!
If you been drooling over one of the really sweet free gifts that are available
this year with a qualifying Contribution, then now is the time to jump on one!!
If you've been meaning to make a Contribution, but just keep putting it off, then
now is the time!
I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want
to be known as a person that supported the Lists! Rather than the guy that,
er, ah, forgot (or whatever)... :-)
I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution so far this
year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation
a float and I don't ever forget it. Hopefully everyone will feel the same.
The List Contribution page is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making
your Contribution right now:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you all in advance!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Volunteer needed! We'll fit your composite top, no charge |
Attention fuselage builders!
We're finalizing dates for another AirCrafters composite workshop for RVs.
Last time we trimmed the top of a willing builder's -10 and did all the
fitting so everyone could see how to approach it. I'd like to do the same
thing again, so if anyone would like to have their top trimmed and fit free
of charge, please get in touch with me. We won't rivet it in place so if
you're not quite ready to have it permanently installed, that's OK.
I'm considering the weekend of January 26/27, 2008, but I'm flexible. The
closer to Watsonville the better; I have a trailer available if needed to
get the parts here and back.
As soon as we have a top to fit I'll be back with firm dates and details
about the class.
Any takers?
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any more $
to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Volunteer needed! We'll fit your composite top, no charge |
Hi Dave
I am building an RV 8. I live near Pleasanton, CA: a couple of hours North
of you. I have finished the wings, empennage and am getting close on the
fuselage. How complete do you want the plane? If mine is not the one, I want
to sign up for the class anyway. Please forward details when you have it
sorted out.
Regards,
Michael Wynn
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Valovich, Paul wrote:
> So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
> Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesnt need to send any more $
> to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
> Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
>
>
>
> Booger
>
> RV-8A N192NM (Reserved again)
>
LSA's from China and for that matter, Walmart purchases, are spit in a
rainstorm compared to the money we are borrowing from them against our
grand children's earning power to get good citizens killed over a pack
of lies.
If you're gonna get mad, prioritize.
Charlie
Message 5
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| Subject: | Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard |
On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order the kits for the -9A, and
of course we must choose between the Quick Build and Standard.
We understand the principle of trading dollars for time, and both of us lean
towards saving time. But we wonder what additional items or things might we
want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be difficult to do if
starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to extend the fuel tank 4
or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost impossible to do with the
QB wing.
Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot tube/angle-of-attack. Is
this much harder to install with a QB wing?
Also, how long have you taken building the Standard wing?
If this has been asked before just point me to the thread....
[Also posted in the VAF ]
Ralph Finch
Davis, California
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Where are you going to go to buy US made products? Most all the consumer electronics
on the market are produced out of country. If we relied on US made clothing,
most all of us would be naked. It is a struggle to find US made products.
I am trying to make it a China free Christmas, but I dont think I am going
to make it.
About the only thing made in the US that is plentiful is the bull served up in
the media. YMMV
Bob Perkinson
Do Not Archive
-
From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
>
> Valovich, Paul wrote:
> > So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
> > Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesnt need to send any more $
> > to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
> > Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
> >
> >
> >
> > Booger
> >
> > RV-8A N192NM (Reserved again)
> >
> LSA's from China and for that matter, Walmart purchases, are spit in a
> rainstorm compared to the money we are borrowing from them against our
> grand children's earning power to get good citizens killed over a pack
> of lies.
>
> If you're gonna get mad, prioritize.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Wait 'till they all get recalled for lead paint!!! :-D
Linn
do not archive
Valovich, Paul wrote:
> So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
> Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any more $
> to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
> Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
>
>
>
> Booger
>
> RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Can I have a piece of this? Hehehe I think Bob is right. And...
Where are they making the quick builds.... Not USA.
It's OK with me. I always try to get something from the closest acceptable
place. That is often half a world away, but I try.
Dale
RV6a Quick Build 951 hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bobperk90658@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
Where are you going to go to buy US made products? Most all the consumer
electronics on the market are produced out of country. If we relied on US
made clothing, most all of us would be naked. It is a struggle to find US
made products. I am trying to make it a China free Christmas, but I don't
think I am going to make it.
About the only thing made in the US that is plentiful is the bull served up
in the media. YMMV
Bob Perkinson
Do Not Archive
-
Message 9
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
So our money ought to go to the Philippines rather than China? Vans have
their quickbuild kits assembled in the Philippines and Czechoslovakia. My
Toyota pickup was assembled in California. We have a world economy and we
all benefit from it. Most products of any significant complexity are
assembled from parts all over the world, just like the Boeing 787.
Terry
RV-8A N838T (Reserved) - not built in the Philippines, if that could
possibly matter to anyone
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:10 AM
Subject: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any more $ to
China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential Cessna
buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
I don't know how much it would cost to manufacture goods in the US
versus China, but I for one would be willing to pay up to 30%
more............and most of my friends would too.
Garry Stout
----- Original Message -----
From: Valovich, Paul
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any more $
to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Work goes to the cheapest source that meets the required educational
standards. It used to be that Chinese workers could barely make the
give-a-way toys in Happy Meals. Now their country graduates 10 times
more professional engineers each year than we do. The next manned moon
landing will probably be Chinese.
Our country has already lost its agricultural base, its manufacturing
base, and because we neglect our schools we are now losing our
leadership in technology and innovation.
Any wonder why more Chinese kids are building airplanes and more of ours
are serving biggie fries?
Flame-on
Andy
do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 9:10 AM
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any more $
to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential
Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?R
V-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
That's easy to say but harder to do, unless you and your friends have a lot
more money than the people the Cessna LSA is aimed at. It sells for about
$110,000 so paying 30% more would make it about $143,000 plus tax, license
and insurance, hanger or tie-down, etc, etc. But I doubt if it would cost
that much more to build it in the US, Canada, or Mexico. I saw something on
TV last night about some of the manufacturer's of various products deciding
they can increase efficiency enough to make it profitable to bring their
manufacturing back home. It's amazing what people can do when they face
stiff competition.
But another great thing about markets it that they work on what people
really do, rather than what they say they would do. You can bet that if
Cessna thought they could get a premium above the added costs of building in
the US, they would do it.
Imagine the uproar if Van's announced that they were going to increase the
price of quick-build kits say 25% and build them in Oregon.
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
I don't know how much it would cost to manufacture goods in the US versus
China, but I for one would be willing to pay up to 30% more............and
most of my friends would too.
Garry Stout
----- Original Message -----
From: Valovich, <mailto:pvalovich@dcscorp.com> Paul
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes it a
Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any more $ to
China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those potential Cessna
buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
A lot of people think "Oh, the recession won't effect
me, I am too high in management,(or whatever). Take a
trip to Michigan and try and find a job. The Detroit
area used to be a large industrial based economy based
on the automobile industry. Now the auto companies
are realizing they are top heavy, as in too much
management. They blame bad times on labor costs in
the factories and then lay off thousands of workers.
Now management has noone to rule over, then management
gets laid off. All these people without jobs cannot
afford to buy the products they built. So auto sales
are down. What happens next? To save money, Auto
companies build assembly plants in Mexico, China and
who knows where. Suppliers are shipping in assemblies
from China, Taiwan, Mexico and South America where
they say labor is cheap. So all these foreigners are
making a wage, the auto companies are building a
higher profit margin vehicle (because they have
notlowered the price to reflect all the cheap labor
they used), and the buying public still cannot afford
their vehicles. Why? They still do not have jobs.
Foreclosures in the Detroit area are at the highest
they have ever been since the beginning of recorded
history. You cannot go down a side street without
seeing at least 7% of the houses on that street for
sale.
In one township, there are 1600 homes for sale,
including 90 foreclosures.
Keep on buying foreign products, keep buying your
Toyatas, Hondas, or any rice burner made. Sooner or
later, it will catch up to you and you will lose your
job. You will collect unemployment. You will lose
your house. You will be out on the street wondering
"Where did I go wrong?"
I am not against foreign trade, but I believe in
balanced trade, a dollar in, a dollar out. All these
fat business owners in their mansions, with Hispanic
maids and gardeners, driving their big Mercedes,
smoking a Cuban cigar thinking they got it made will
sooner or later be out on the street.
Unbalanced trade is like a cancer on this country.
Noone is immune. It will take some time to spread,
but spread it will.
How, you may ask do I know all this or can speak about
this? I am a victim of this cancer and I am fighting
back, slowly, but fighting back.
BUY US MADE, YOUR LIFE WILL DEPEND ON IT.
Dave Nellis
7A Slow build Made in USA
--- "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich@dcscorp.com> wrote:
> So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to
> me that makes it a
> Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need
> to send any more $
> to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all
> those potential
> Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
>
>
>
> Booger
>
> RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
>
>
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
I was at OSH this year and I watched the ticker on the deposits go up by the minute
(they had an electronic counter to help create a feeding frenzy).
Personally, I would want a refund. Nothing against Chinese folks, but if Cessna
had my money, I would be asking for it back. I think this was a big mistake on
their part as most folks in line to pony-up +100Gs were doing so because they
think they are getting a Cessna.
In the motorcycle industry, the Chinese offerings have been total junk, they are
getting better with all the dough we have going their way, but I won't be strapping
my carcass to anything that says MADE IN CHINA. I know Van uses overseas
labor, but Cessna is a "legacy" American aircraft manufacturer, they aren't
selling **** like American (which I boycott). So when will Boeing go to China,
how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc, etc. I am embarrassed for Cessna.
Come to think of it, I building an RV so it's someone else's issue, except that
I need the US economy to stay viable.
Rant over...................
__________________
--------
Brent O.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149791#149791
Message 15
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
//About the only thing made in the US that is plentiful is the bull served
up in the media. YMMV
Always with the shot to the media! (g) Sounds like folks here would be
happier living in China with their polluted air... the lead paint... the
government-line-and-only-the-government-line media.
Economies change. And, yeah, it's a shame Detroit is... well... Detroit.
But I remember the '70s when textile plant after textile plant and industry
after industry was moving out of my hometown in Massachusetts. to China? to
Mexico? Nope. To North Carolina.
So we developed a high-tech economy instead. Yes, there are still empty
factory buildings in my hometown. But the buggywhip factories closed too.
Despite the best efforts of people to make us think the only thing our kids
can do is work at McDonald's, I know better. We're thinkers. We're
innovators. We're doers.
When it comes to the future. I like our chances. Unless, of course, we waste
our time hoping it'll be 1957 again. Just because it IS in China, well, I'll
stay put thank you very much.
Now, who wants to come help me build an RV?
Do not archive
Message 16
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
There may be enough undocumented workers from south of the U.S. borders
in Orygun that he would only have to charge 7%. Ever stood in line at
an Oregon emergency room admitting area? We have issued over 125,000
driver's licenses to them. A benefit would be the shipping time
reduction from maritime container shipments to ICC truckers. Tony could
be constantly on the road. Oh yeh, he already is.
John C.
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
That's easy to say but harder to do, unless you and your friends have a
lot more money than the people the Cessna LSA is aimed at. It sells for
about $110,000 so paying 30% more would make it about $143,000 plus tax,
license and insurance, hanger or tie-down, etc, etc. But I doubt if it
would cost that much more to build it in the US, Canada, or Mexico. I
saw something on TV last night about some of the manufacturer's of
various products deciding they can increase efficiency enough to make it
profitable to bring their manufacturing back home. It's amazing what
people can do when they face stiff competition.
But another great thing about markets it that they work on what people
really do, rather than what they say they would do. You can bet that if
Cessna thought they could get a premium above the added costs of
building in the US, they would do it.
Imagine the uproar if Van's announced that they were going to increase
the price of quick-build kits say 25% and build them in Oregon.
Terry
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
I don't know how much it would cost to manufacture goods in the US
versus China, but I for one would be willing to pay up to 30%
more............and most of my friends would too.
Garry Stout
----- Original Message -----
From: Valovich, Paul <mailto:pvalovich@dcscorp.com>
So Cessna is building their LSA in China. Seems to me that makes
it a Chinese airplane, not a Cessna. The US doesn't need to send any
more $ to China - Walmart does that very nicely. Maybe all those
potential Cessna buyers will reconsider Vans.
Booger
RV-8A N192NM (Reserved - again)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
OK, devils advocate time.
panhandler1956 wrote:
>
>I was at OSH this year and I watched the ticker on the deposits go up by the minute
(they had an electronic counter to help create a feeding frenzy).
>
It's called marketing!
>Personally, I would want a refund. Nothing against Chinese folks, but if Cessna
had my money, I would be asking for it back. I think this was a big mistake
on their part as most folks in line to pony-up +100Gs were doing so because they
think they are getting a Cessna.
>
They are getting a Cessna. No matter what language the workers speak
..... it's a Cessna .... Designed by Cessna, Vetted by the FAA, and
built by skilled workers ...... that happen to get paid less than their
American counterparts.
>In the motorcycle industry, the Chinese offerings have been total junk, they are
getting better with all the dough we have going their way, but I won't be strapping
my carcass to anything that says MADE IN CHINA.
>
OK, that's your choice. I think your reasoning is flawed, however.
Would it be built any different in the USA??? Would it just cost more???
> I know Van uses overseas labor, but Cessna is a "legacy" American aircraft manufacturer,
they aren't selling **** like American (which I boycott). So when
will Boeing go to China, how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc, etc. I am embarrassed
for Cessna.
>
OK, how about a 'Made In America' TV. Every sub-assembly is made
outside the borders, and shipped to an assembly plant in the U.S.
Cessna might just be able to convince the Dept. of Commerce that
assembling all the big pieces (fuselage, wings, ailerons, fin, rudder,
horiz stab and elevators qualifies it to be 'Made In America'.
>Come to think of it, I building an RV so it's someone else's issue, except that
I need the US economy to stay viable.
>
We all need a stable economy. The high price of fuel, home
foreclosures, rich lawyers, insurance nightmares ...... all are
crunching our economy. We still buy big gas guzzlers, stick our necks
out with ARMs or balloon mortgages, sue everybody that knows anything
about a product that failed (or didn't .... doesn't seem to matter), and
are forced to pay outrageous insurance premiums (I'm in FL) so we can at
lease try and enjoy what we got.
Our world (in the U.S.) is in deep trouble, and all I see is it getting
substantially worse. And I'm an incurable optimist.
Linn
do not archive
>Rant over...................
>__________________
>
>--------
>Brent O.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149791#149791
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
//Our world (in the U.S.) is in deep trouble, and all I see is it getting
substantially worse. And I'm an incurable optimist.
Everything will be fine as long as you don't name your teddybear "Muhammad."
Here's the thing. One of the reasons the world seems so screwed up is we
know about it. Never has it been so easy to instantaneously hear about every
little thing in every nook and cranny of the globe. Things seemed so much
better "back in the day" because we were so uninformed about it.
When I grew up in by Massachusetts mill-town -- a papermaking town -- eveyr
day the river (the Nashua River) was a different color. Literally bright
orange to neon green from all the chemicals manufacturers thought NOTHING
about dumping. The shoe plant and the lock factory belched crap in the air
day and night. No scrubbers, no filters.
Yes, we had a manufacturing economy to be proud of, and, man, did we ever
pay for it. We contaminated rivers, and shortened the lives of residents in
these manufacturing cities. We're still paying for it with brownfields and
contaminated, useless acres of land.
The other day a report came out that scientists pointed two giant telescopes
at one point in the sky for about 100 days. They got enough light from far
away over that time to detect "teenage galaxies" 12 BILLION YEARS AGO. We're
capable of actually looking back in time. Think about that. WE are only 4
1/2 billion years old and what we just looked at is now 7 1/2 billion years
(give or take) older than we are.
I can't explain it, but the more I think about that, the more I think swings
in the economy and the day-to-day nonsense aren't a big deal in the big
scheme of things.
the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!
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