Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:53 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (panhandler1956)
2. 04:15 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Kevin Horton)
3. 04:45 AM - Re: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard (wskimike)
4. 05:19 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (N395V)
5. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Chuck Jensen)
6. 06:33 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
7. 07:17 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (jedwards)
8. 08:12 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Rob Prior)
9. 08:12 AM - Re: Intermittant Posts - Vista Related? (darnpilot@aol.com)
10. 10:00 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Terry Watson)
11. 10:06 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising ()
12. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
13. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Richard Dudley)
14. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Deems Davis)
15. 12:13 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Chuck Jensen)
16. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Ollie Washburn)
17. 12:24 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis)
18. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis)
19. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis)
20. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Terry Watson)
21. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
22. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
23. 03:21 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (N395V)
24. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
25. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (John Morgensen)
26. 05:48 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Vanremog@aol.com)
27. 05:56 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Vanremog@aol.com)
28. 06:40 PM - RV6A for sale (Fred Stucklen)
29. 06:46 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising ()
30. 07:08 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob J.)
31. 07:31 PM - Hangar space available at CNO (Tailgummer@aol.com)
32. 07:56 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins)
33. 08:22 PM - Re: Hangar space available at CNO (Robin Marks)
34. 09:39 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Chris W)
35. 10:18 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Charlie England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Linn,
Your points are not completely invalid - see I'm not a complete jerk.
I believe given the current movement of Americans to at least empathize with the
notion that buying things from China more advanced than a toothbrush (lead
included) isn't a good idea, for alot of reasons, even though they do it anyway.
Airplanes are an emotional purchase and no one wants to pull up on the ramp
at a fly-in after spending $100,000 on their "pride n joy" to have the locals
start with the "made in china" jokes. Cessna is about to find out I am right
- IMHO!
Good discussion - sorry not related to RVs.
Do not archive
--------
Brent O.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149826#149826
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
On 30-Nov-07, at 22:17 , panhandler1956 wrote:
> So when will Boeing go to China, how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc,
> etc. I am embarrassed for Cessna.
See: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html
A quote from that Boeing web page:
"China has an increasingly sophisticated and expanding part to play in
the commercial aviation industry and has a role on all of Boeing
commercial airplane models-737, 747, 767, 777 and the newest and most
innovative airplane, the 787 Dreamliner. China builds horizontal
stabilizers, vertical fins, the aft tail section, doors, wing panels
and other parts on the 737; 747 trailing edge wing ribs; and 747-8
ailerons, spoilers and inboard flaps. China also has an important role
on the new 787 Dreamliner airplane, building the rudder, wing-to-body
fairing panels, leading edge and panels for the vertical fin, and
other composite parts."
Gulfstream purchases components from China:
http://www.stork-aerospace.com/eCache/DEF/10/729.html
"The Chinese aircraft manufacturer Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (part
of AVIC-I) and Stork Aerospace have signed a contract for the
machining of components for the Gulfstream G450, the G500 and the
G550. "
Lear is owned by Bombardier (a Canadian company, with manufacturing
facilities on several continents), and Bombardier, like most of the
aviation industry, purchases components for several models from China
(but not yet any Learjet components, as near as I can tell).
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby)
Greely, ON
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard |
As far as the time, you can take about $8.00 an hour for Vans to build your
wing, which will take you alot more time because you don't do it every day.
As far as the quickbuild wings, you still have to rivet the lower outboard
skin which is where you pitot is. I have seen quite a few quick builds and
the quality is as good as you can do and most of the time better unless you
have quite a bit of experience. If money is not an issue, go with the
quickbuild. You can still install an additional tank with the botom skin off
but it might make it tougher.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Finch" <rgf@dcn.davis.ca.us>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:48 PM
Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard
>
> On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order the kits for the -9A,
> and
> of course we must choose between the Quick Build and Standard.
>
> We understand the principle of trading dollars for time, and both of us
> lean
> towards saving time. But we wonder what additional items or things might
> we
> want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be difficult to do if
> starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to extend the fuel tank 4
> or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost impossible to do with the
> QB wing.
>
> Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot tube/angle-of-attack.
> Is
> this much harder to install with a QB wing?
>
> Also, how long have you taken building the Standard wing?
>
> If this has been asked before just point me to the thread....
>
> [Also posted in the VAF ]
>
> Ralph Finch
> Davis, California
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
> to get good citizens killed over a pack
> of lies.
>
You mean the spousings of Hilary, Murtha, Pelosi, Reid, and Michael Moore are getting
people killed?
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149841#149841
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!
>>>>>
Hi, Bob, are them shades or blinders? :-)
Chuck Jensen
Do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Heh...heh... check back with me in 6.5 billion years.
I should be about ready for my first flight by then.
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
Thanks,
Chuck Jensen
Diversified Technologies
2680 Westcott Blvd
Knoxville, TN 37931
Phn: 865-539-9000 x100
Cell: 865-406-9001
Fax: 865-539-9001
cjensen@dts9000.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins
the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades!
>>>>>
Hi, Bob, are them shades or blinders? :-)
Chuck Jensen
Do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
I'm OK with buying kits from the Philippines or any other democracy. (I
don't think they build the kits in Czechoslovakia anymore).
But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers in
China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, and no say
in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts there!!! On the
other hand, I can see supporting a struggling democracy, improving their
economy by international trade, where people have a voice to facilitate
change.
(Good grief, I sound like a politician)
John Edwards
RV-9A - Empennage
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
So our money ought to go to the Philippines rather than China? Vans have
their quickbuild kits assembled in the Philippines and Czechoslovakia. My
Toyota pickup was assembled in California. We have a world economy and we
all benefit from it. Most products of any significant complexity are
assembled from parts all over the world, just like the Boeing 787.
Terry
RV-8A N838T (Reserved) - not built in the Philippines, if that could
possibly matter to anyone
Message 8
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
On 7:14 2007-12-01 "jedwards" <jedwards@digital.net> wrote:
> But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers
> in China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety,
> and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts
> there!!!
As someone who works for a company who outsources manufacturing to China
(and other countries), I have to say that this isn't completely true. I've
visited two of our contract manufacturers in China, and know first-hand
that workers there are treated better than average, if your description
above is average.
There may be factories in China making products for use in China, that
westerners don't ever see. But our company at least has strict controls
over our contract manufacturers requiring them to be ISO certified, and to
uphold standards for the ethical treatment of workers. Yes, we pay a
little more for that, but it's still cheaper than paying people in North
America to do the same thing.
> On the other hand, I can see supporting a struggling
> democracy, improving their economy by international trade, where
> people have a voice to facilitate change.
Are you referring to the US, or are you still thinking about the
Phillipines? :)
-Rob
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Intermittant Posts - Vista Related? |
I have Vista Home Premium and have no problems with email, but I use aol as the
provider.? Maybe the better question is who is your ISP and mail server?
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle Boatright <kboatright1@comcast.net>
Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:25 pm
Subject: RV-List: Intermittant Posts - Vista Related?
I have just upgraded to a new PC that runs Vista and Windows Mail.?The only problem
I'm having is that about 80% of RV-list traffic isn't making it to the new
PC.? It?shows up on the old PC if I look there.
?
As far as I can tell, I have all of the e-mail security options set so there are
no e-mail filters?and everything should appear in my inbox.? Well, many RV-list
postings don't make it to my inbox or the junk e-mail folder.
?
RV-list traffic seems to be the only?problematic e-mail.?
?
Has anyone else experienced this on switching to Vista?? Advise is appreciated.
?
By the way, my ISP was worthless.? "We don't have troubleshooting help for Vista/Windows
Mail"
?
Do not archive.
?
Kyle Boatright
?
?
________________________________________________________________________
Message 10
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
China is a strange case that many of us would not have thought possible
twenty years ago - a relatively free market operating in a politically
oppressive communist state. I still believe (hope) that free markets will
bring free minds.
In an ethical sense, I believe we should buy from the source that gives us
the best value for our money, regardless of the race or ethnicity or home
town or political system under which it was made - with some limited
exceptions. Slave labor, such as China has been accused of using in the
past, is unacceptable. It's hard to imagine a justification for buying
anything built in North Korea, for example, but that is a mute point because
I am unaware of anything of value being built there for export other than
nuclear weapons.
By rewarding those who give us the best value for our money, we are making
the system work and encouraging the thing that is at the heart of making us
all better off - productivity.
Each of us may have different reasons for our decisions beyond the best
value for the money. Some may want to insist that their coffee is "fair
trade" certified. I do not. Many want to know that their building materials
have some kind of "sustainable" stamp of approval. I don't. I think markets
do a decent job with those issues, even though others will strongly
disagree. It does concern me that China's explosive growth is giving
technological power to a country that is still a potential enemy, but
economies that are tightly entwined have every reason to avoid conflict.
China is rushing through an industrial revolution at unprecedented speed.
The current flap about lead paint I see as a part of that revolution. Some
Chinese manufacturers were careless or took a short cut and now they and
other Chinese manufacturers are paying a very steep price for it. You can
bet that if they didn't know how important their reputation was to their
profit before, they certainly do now.
The world is changing at an ever increasing pace. We have to adjust to it or
we will get left out of the great things that change has to offer, but we
have to do it without losing or compromising the values and principles that
make it all worthwhile.
And leave it to Kevin to mess up a good flame party with some facts!
Terry
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jedwards
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:15 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
I'm OK with buying kits from the Philippines or any other democracy. (I
don't think they build the kits in Czechoslovakia anymore).
But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers in
China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, and no say
in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts there!!! On the
other hand, I can see supporting a struggling democracy, improving their
economy by international trade, where people have a voice to facilitate
change.
(Good grief, I sound like a politician)
John Edwards
RV-9A - Empennage
_____
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
So our money ought to go to the Philippines rather than China? Vans have
their quickbuild kits assembled in the Philippines and Czechoslovakia. My
Toyota pickup was assembled in California. We have a world economy and we
all benefit from it. Most products of any significant complexity are
assembled from parts all over the world, just like the Boeing 787.
Terry
RV-8A N838T (Reserved) - not built in the Philippines, if that could
possibly matter to anyone
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
World economy. The corporations will not be happy until our USA standard of living
declines as other nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD Economy. Just one
more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever ever ever again. Between China
huge trade advantage and India raining US jobs, while US jobs disappear is enough
to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours Cessna.
THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, America, write FAR's
that favored so many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our own industry?
I knew it was bull when all of sudden we had 40 LSA planes from companies
that I never heard of. Of course they hide behind some US distributor address.
I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and EAA. G (Woun't do any good
but I'll feel better for a minute.)
---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
//THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, America,
write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not
our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden we had 40 LSA
planes from companies that I never heard of. Of course they hide behind some
US distributor address.
So if I have this straight. We favor capitalism -- which is a free-market
economy -- until...... ?
If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care what engine is used to power
them?
This debate reminds me of the old debates when shopping malls sprung up on
the outskirts of towns and then the downtowns declined. Lots of people
kvetched about the decline of downtowns, and all of them were in a position
to do something about it when it mattered: shop downtown.
If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their engines are going to be built in
Germany or France, are you going to park YOUR airplane?
I didn't think so.
The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's to be the beneficiary
of it, by being better.
My guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff coming from China is
cheap junk. You're worried that it won't be.
Everyone points to Detroit as what happens because of foreign competition.
Nonsense. Detroit's automakers spent the first half of the last generation
building stuff people didn't want and the last half trying to change the
laws so it didn't matter.
And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get to dictate what i'll buy
based on whatever factors *I* want to consider. If you want my business,
satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to limit my choices.
The American Way is to be better. So stop complaining. Be better.
Do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Bob,
I, for one, appreciate your calling it as it is!!!
Richard
Bob Collins wrote:
> //THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we,
> America, write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines
> (Rotax) and not our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of
> sudden we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never heard of. Of
> course they hide behind some US distributor address.
>
> So if I have this straight. We favor capitalism -- which is a
> free-market economy -- until...... ?
>
> If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care what engine is used to
> power them?
>
> This debate reminds me of the old debates when shopping malls sprung
> up on the outskirts of towns and then the downtowns declined. Lots of
> people kvetched about the decline of downtowns, and all of them were
> in a position to do something about it when it mattered: shop downtown.
>
> If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their engines are going to be
> built in Germany or France, are you going to park YOUR airplane?
>
> I didn't think so.
>
> The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's to be the
> beneficiary of it, by being better.
>
> My guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff coming from China
> is cheap junk. You're worried that it won't be.
>
> Everyone points to Detroit as what happens because of foreign
> competition. Nonsense. Detroit's automakers spent the first half of
> the last generation building stuff people didn't want and the last
> half trying to change the laws so it didn't matter.
>
> And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get to dictate what
> i'll buy based on whatever factors *I* want to consider. If you want
> my business, satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to limit my choices.
>
> The American Way is to be better. So stop complaining. Be better.
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
How 'bout Them Red Sox!!
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/*
*
Message 15
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jedwards
I'm OK with buying kits from the Philippines or any other
democracy. (I don't think they build the kits in Czechoslovakia
anymore).
But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers in
China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, and no
say in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts there!!!
On the other hand, I can see supporting a struggling democracy,
improving their economy by international trade, where people have a
voice to facilitate change.
(Good grief, I sound like a politician)
John Edwards
RV-9A - Empennag
In spite of the low wages, one advantage of the Chinese system of
industrial safety and protection of the environment is very few workers
end up spending their retirement years in poverty---most don't live that
long.
Chuck
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Rans LSA's are not foreign made and we don't have an engine that comes close
to the Rotax specs.
Ollie Rans S7S 198 trouble free hrs. since Feb.07 Also RV6A with over
1000 hrs.
On Dec 1, 2007 1:05 PM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> World economy. The corporations will not be happy until our USA standard
> of living declines as other nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD
> Economy. Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever ever ever
> again. Between China huge trade advantage and India raining US jobs, while
> US jobs disappear is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours Cessna.
>
> THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, America,
> write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not
> our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden we had 40 LSA
> planes from companies that I never heard of. Of course they hide behind some
> US distributor address.
> I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and EAA. G (Woun't do any
> good but I'll feel better for a minute.)
>
> ------------------------------
> Be a better pen pal.
>
> *
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
--- Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca> wrote:
> <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> On 7:14 2007-12-01 "jedwards" <jedwards@digital.net>
> wrote:
> > But I do have a problem buying from communist
> countries. The workers
> > in China are paid very little, no health care, no
> industrial safety,
> > and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions
> focusing there efforts
> > there!!!
>
> As someone who works for a company who outsources
> manufacturing to China
> (and other countries), I have to say that this isn't
> completely true. I've
> visited two of our contract manufacturers in China,
> and know first-hand
> that workers there are treated better than average,
> if your description
> above is average.
>
> There may be factories in China making products for
> use in China, that
> westerners don't ever see. But our company at least
> has strict controls
> over our contract manufacturers requiring them to be
> ISO certified, and to
> uphold standards for the ethical treatment of
> workers. Yes, we pay a
> little more for that, but it's still cheaper than
> paying people in North
> America to do the same thing.
>
So you would put your neighbor out of work to put an
extra buck in your pocket? God help us all.
> > On the other hand, I can see supporting a
> struggling
> > democracy, improving their economy by
> international trade, where
> > people have a voice to facilitate change.
>
> Are you referring to the US, or are you still
> thinking about the
> Phillipines? :)
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
> Click on
> about
> Admin.
>
> browse
> Un/Subscription,
> FAQ,
>
> Forums!
>
>
>
>
>
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
My sentiments exactly. Take care of the USA first and
if their is anything left over, give it away.
Dave
--- gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote:
> World economy. The corporations will not be happy
> until our USA standard of living declines as other
> nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD Economy.
> Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever
> ever ever again. Between China huge trade advantage
> and India raining US jobs, while US jobs disappear
> is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours
> Cessna.
>
> THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made.
> How did we, America, write FAR's that favored so
> many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our
> own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden
> we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never
> heard of. Of course they hide behind some US
> distributor address.
>
> I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and
> EAA. G (Woun't do any good but I'll feel better for
> a minute.)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends
> inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Not likely but possible:
Bob Collins goes to work Monday morning and finds a
note on his desk, see the boss. He goes to the bosses
office and finds him with a somber look. "Bob, the
country is out of work, because everything is
outsourced, made in China and India. Nobody is
donating to Public Television, our last telethon was a
flop. We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob".
What do you do now?
This could effect everyone in this country. I respect
your right to choose, but you have to choose with more
than your pocketbook. Choose with your future in
mind. Today's young people don't understand this, but
they can hack a computer or a video game or hop up a
little rice grinder that goes way too fast and is
loud.
Balance the trade deficit, a dollar in equals a dollar
out.
In Japan, an American made car sells for at least 50%
of what it would sell for in the states. Why? The
government tariffs these vehicles beyond feasibility
of purchase. This basically means the Japanese
government subsidizes the dumping of Japanese cars
into the USA, and the American public happily buys
them up not feeling one bit of guilt for not
supporting American industry and his neighbor that
works there. To top it off, our own government could
care less about any of this. When was the last time
anyone saw the government do anything for the working
class or for all individuals, rich and poor alike,
that did not favor the wealthy?
Bob,
This has been a sore spot for me for well over 15
years as I have been trying to keep my family housed
and fed watching all the jobs disappear, wondering if
this is the day I will get laid off or not. All I am
trying to do is make people see a point of view they
may have never seen. Come to Detroit and try and find
a job. You will be glad that you have a job in
Minnesota.
Buy American, Build American, Be American
--- Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net> wrote:
> //THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made.
> How did we, America,
> write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and
> engines (Rotax) and not
> our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of
> sudden we had 40 LSA
> planes from companies that I never heard of. Of
> course they hide behind some
> US distributor address.
>
> So if I have this straight. We favor capitalism --
> which is a free-market
> economy -- until...... ?
>
> If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care what
> engine is used to power
> them?
>
> This debate reminds me of the old debates when
> shopping malls sprung up on
> the outskirts of towns and then the downtowns
> declined. Lots of people
> kvetched about the decline of downtowns, and all of
> them were in a position
> to do something about it when it mattered: shop
> downtown.
>
> If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their engines
> are going to be built in
> Germany or France, are you going to park YOUR
> airplane?
>
> I didn't think so.
>
> The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's
> to be the beneficiary
> of it, by being better.
>
> My guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff
> coming from China is
> cheap junk. You're worried that it won't be.
>
> Everyone points to Detroit as what happens because
> of foreign competition.
> Nonsense. Detroit's automakers spent the first half
> of the last generation
> building stuff people didn't want and the last half
> trying to change the
> laws so it didn't matter.
>
> And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get
> to dictate what i'll buy
> based on whatever factors *I* want to consider. If
> you want my business,
> satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to limit my
> choices.
>
> The American Way is to be better. So stop
> complaining. Be better.
>
> Do not archive
>
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
I wonder what RV owners/builders/flyers on this list from all over the world
think of that. Take a course in basic economics. This group think -- my
race, my religion, my city, my state my country -- attempts to obscure the
idea that we are all individuals with the same rights to the results of our
efforts as everyone else. It's just that some of us live in countries that
recognize that right more than others.
And along with the course in economics, maybe one in U.S. history to remind
yourself just why this country was created. Let me assure you that it was
NOT to provide a central power to dictate the economic choices of the
citizens -- it was to protect us from those who would try to impose such
control over our lives.
"Buy American, Build American, Be American"??? Some, including me, find
that downright un-American and more than a little embarrassing. How could
anyone possibly claim the moral high ground by denying their neighbors the
right to make their own economic choices?
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Nellis
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
My sentiments exactly. Take care of the USA first and
if their is anything left over, give it away.
Dave
--- gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote:
> World economy. The corporations will not be happy
> until our USA standard of living declines as other
> nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD Economy.
> Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever
> ever ever again. Between China huge trade advantage
> and India raining US jobs, while US jobs disappear
> is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours
> Cessna.
>
> THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made.
> How did we, America, write FAR's that favored so
> many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our
> own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden
> we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never
> heard of. Of course they hide behind some US
> distributor address.
>
> I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and
> EAA. G (Woun't do any good but I'll feel better for
> a minute.)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends
> inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Just a quick interruption here on the Matronics world economy list for a
truly hysterical observation on the refueling of small
airplanes overseas.
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/the_way_vs_a_way_japan_
v_china.php
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
//flop. We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob".
//What do you do now?
Are you kidding me? do youknow what business I'm in? I'm in the mainstream
news business. This isn't a hypothetical scenario, this is what we live
with every day. The newsppaer industry is getting shredded. You know why?
They'll tell yo it's because of CraigsList and Facebook, and the Internet.
I'll tell you because they didn't adapt. They continued to act as if THEY
are the pillar of all information and it'll be news to you when they say it
will be... and you'll take it their way and you'll like it.
and now they're paying the price. Sad? yes. As it should be? Absolutely.
Now, sense you posed the hypothetical, let me tell you exactly what I do.
Because I'm doing it now.
I've been up here in the upper Midwest working for my current employer for
15 years. I was their first editor and I did a great job. When they decided
they wanted to get into online, they asked me to handle the content. And I
did another great job. I invented new ways to tell stories
online...Minnesota Fantasy legislature and Select A Candidate.
and a few weeks ago they asked me to start something new (for us), an online
host/blog that makes the news more personal....that changes the way (once I
get it perfected) newsrooms relate to the audience. It debuted last night
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
Now, i have to tell you I am VERY concerned about this new role because it's
full of risk in a business on short margins. I've spent many sleepless
nights the last few weeks wondering what I'll do if it doens't work out.
Even considering stopping the RV project to put more emergency funds away.
So what do I do? I work hard and I try to shape this thing and I try to make
it as popular as I've made the other things I've worked on here.
Do I appreciate having a job? You bet. Do I have a right to keep that job?
Absolutely not. I have to EARN my way right up until the day I retire.
If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm 53 in a dying industry... I probably won't be
able to get another job that will pay me as much as I make now. So I'll do
the best I can, work at Home Depot if I have to, may be shop an article or
two, cut some expenses, and try to figure out a niche that I can fill in a
competitive world.
This is the way life is. We can either waste our energy wish it weren't so.
Or we do what we can to make it better.
By the way, the broad sweeping generalization of "today's kids" make me want
to throw up.
Y'all need to stop your whining and stop looking at everyone else as the
source of your problems. Your closets are full of shirts make overseas, your
garages have foreign cars... your tool chests are full of stuff made in
China and nobody put any of those things there but you.
Can we get to talking about building freakin' RVs now?
Do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Food for thought........
video takes about 3 minutes
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/shifthappens
do not archive
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149927#149927
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Unless I misinterpreted, the presentation suggested that people having 10-14
different jobs by age 38 is a BAD thing.
My youngest son, age 19 now, has had... let's see 7 so far. Of course he had
3 at once when he was a senior in high school.
One of those "kids today that are too lazy to work," probably. He went out
last night, I noticed, with a girl down the street who was a 4.0 student in
high school... will graduate next year from college with a degree in biology
and could probably strike it rich, but she wants to come back to town... and
be a teacher. I guess so that she can hear constantly from people with 1/4th
the I.Q. -- and certainly the knowledge -- about what a terrible job she's
doing and how lazy she is.
I'm not too worried about the next generation. The best we can do is
probably get out of their way. They're going to make us proud.
I come from a country of optimists with a "can do" spirit. No worries.
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
Food for thought........
video takes about 3 minutes
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/shifthappens
do not archive
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Thanks, Bob
I couldn't have said it better. But then, I don't write for a living.
I would add that I find it hard to accept that a person capable of
building an airplane would resort to playing the "victim" card.
John Morgensen
Bob Collins wrote:
>
> //flop. We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob".
>
> //What do you do now?
>
>
> Are you kidding me? do youknow what business I'm in? I'm in the mainstream
> news business. This isn't a hypothetical scenario, this is what we live
> with every day. The newsppaer industry is getting shredded. You know why?
> They'll tell yo it's because of CraigsList and Facebook, and the Internet.
> I'll tell you because they didn't adapt. They continued to act as if THEY
> are the pillar of all information and it'll be news to you when they say it
> will be... and you'll take it their way and you'll like it.
>
> and now they're paying the price. Sad? yes. As it should be? Absolutely.
>
> Now, sense you posed the hypothetical, let me tell you exactly what I do.
> Because I'm doing it now.
>
> I've been up here in the upper Midwest working for my current employer for
> 15 years. I was their first editor and I did a great job. When they decided
> they wanted to get into online, they asked me to handle the content. And I
> did another great job. I invented new ways to tell stories
> online...Minnesota Fantasy legislature and Select A Candidate.
>
> and a few weeks ago they asked me to start something new (for us), an online
> host/blog that makes the news more personal....that changes the way (once I
> get it perfected) newsrooms relate to the audience. It debuted last night
> http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/
>
> Now, i have to tell you I am VERY concerned about this new role because it's
> full of risk in a business on short margins. I've spent many sleepless
> nights the last few weeks wondering what I'll do if it doens't work out.
> Even considering stopping the RV project to put more emergency funds away.
>
> So what do I do? I work hard and I try to shape this thing and I try to make
> it as popular as I've made the other things I've worked on here.
>
> Do I appreciate having a job? You bet. Do I have a right to keep that job?
> Absolutely not. I have to EARN my way right up until the day I retire.
>
> If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm 53 in a dying industry... I probably won't be
> able to get another job that will pay me as much as I make now. So I'll do
> the best I can, work at Home Depot if I have to, may be shop an article or
> two, cut some expenses, and try to figure out a niche that I can fill in a
> competitive world.
>
> This is the way life is. We can either waste our energy wish it weren't so.
> Or we do what we can to make it better.
>
> By the way, the broad sweeping generalization of "today's kids" make me want
> to throw up.
>
> Y'all need to stop your whining and stop looking at everyone else as the
> source of your problems. Your closets are full of shirts make overseas, your
> garages have foreign cars... your tool chests are full of stuff made in
> China and nobody put any of those things there but you.
>
> Can we get to talking about building freakin' RVs now?
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
In a message dated 11/27/2007 9:52:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rosesrv6a@yahoo.com writes:
Ever wonder how China makes stuff cheaper than Us ?
The Construction Site Hard Hat
The Dust and Particle Free Breathing Apparatus
OSHA Approved Scaffolding
And my all-time favorite..
The =9CNew=9D Lightweight Welders Mask
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
In a message dated 11/27/2007 9:52:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
rosesrv6a@yahoo.com writes:
Ever wonder how China makes stuff cheaper than Us ?
The Construction Site Hard Hat
The Dust and Particle Free Breathing Apparatus
OSHA Approved Scaffolding
And my all-time favorite..
The =9CNew=9D Lightweight Welders Mask
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)
Message 28
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|
Hi all,
Time to sell my RV-6A so I can finish the RV-7A...... Here's the data
for anyone interested.... I'm planning on posting it in trade-A-Plane
next week...
Full Night/Day VFR and IFR equipped RV-6A with Tip-up canopy,
conventional "steam" gage flight instruments, with standby vacuum
system, PS Engineering PMA6000M-S Audio Panel, Dual SL-30 NAV/COMMs with
dual MD-200 CDI's, GX50 IFR approach certified GPS, SL-70 transponder,
D10 EFIS (as a backup or right side instrument) , PXE7300 High Fidelity
Stereo in -Flight entertainment system, WX-950 Storm Scope, S-Tec System
30 auto-pilot with Altitude hold, with a GPSS interface, an Auto pilot
DG for heading hold, and an XM radio receiver with Blue Tooth and USB
interface to a hand held device that will display weather information (I
use a tablet Computer mounted on a RAM mount), Aero Sport Power O-320
Carb'ed 160 HP engine with 9:1 pistons, Vetterman Exhaust, a standard
right mag, and a P-MAG electronic ignition, fixed pitch Sensenich CM70
series cruise prop, Skybolt Cowling system, Whelen Anti-Collision
lighting system, Dual landing/taxi (130W/90W) lights, Dual Brakes,
Electric elevator trim, cabin lighting, electronic panel dimmer, manual
aileron trim, electric flaps. The electrical system is a dual battery
system with automatic isolation of the Aux battery in the event of a
buss under voltage, single 60 A B&C alternator and regulator,
Electronics International engine gages including a 16 channel EGT/CHT
gage. There are 7 "D" size schematics of the electrical system
(including avionics wiring). There are four access panels in front of
the windshield to enable easy access to the avionics and electrical
system wiring. I also have a full documentation package for the
aircraft.
I've installed the Jon Johansson Tip tanks at 9.5 gals each which
results in a total of 56 gals of fuel, or about 7.5 hours till fuel
exhaustion at economy cruise.
I fly hard/serious IFR in this aircraft and have flown several coast
to coast trips, including a three week tour of Alaska. It's a serious
traveling machine. Empty weight is 1150 lbs, with a gross weight of
1850 lbs. 850 Hrs TT Engine & airframe.
The plane will be sold with a fresh conditional inspection. It has
always been hangered.
Tel: (860)-490-3933, email: rv6a4sale@cox.net More pictures &
documents at http://members.cox.net/rv6a4sale
Fred Stucklen
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Having been around a while, I'll just give two examples I observed over my past
68 years. Yes this about unions, of which my grandfather, my dad & myself were
members, at Kaiser Steel
1: Kaiser Steel in Fontana CA. Ya that right..where they built the raceway. Kaiser
Steel was attempting to cut costs and compete with Japan in steel production.
One of the union mouths said "We aint given nuttin back, Kaiser will never
close". The raceway is not near it's on the old steel mill grounds.
#2: A TV report from Detroit where there was a auto strike going on. Woman in
tears, "I don't know what we're going to do, the union fund is not enough to
live on". She said this as she got into her new Volvo parked next to the VW Vanogan
and Mazada sedan in her diveway as she headed for the market. DUH...could
they have been part of the problem ??.
Buy American when you have a choice...what a concept.... KABONG
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising
>
>"Buy American, Build American, Be American"??? Some, including me, find
>that downright un-American and more than a little embarrassing. How could
>anyone possibly claim the moral high ground by denying their neighbors the
>right to make their own economic choices?
>
>Terry
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
On Nov 30, 2007 9:20 PM, Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Keep on buying foreign products, keep buying your
> Toyatas, Hondas, or any rice burner made. Sooner or
> later, it will catch up to you and you will lose your
> job. You will collect unemployment. You will lose
> your house. You will be out on the street wondering
> "Where did I go wrong?"
>
I remember hearing this same sort of rhetoric during the 80's about the
Japanese. In 2007 instead its the Chinese, not the Japanese.
I have several friends who work at the Subaru-Isuzu plant near Lafayette,
IN. Guess what? They're profitable, after a year of employment hourly
employees make as much as their UAW counterparts. BTW they are hiring.
There's a Toyota truck plant in Princeton, IN, same story. Honda is
building a new plant near Greenfield, IN. What do these companies not have
that their US competitors do? 1. unions, 2. overcompensated and incompetent
executive management, and 3. legacy health care costs.
Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy
health care costs? Toyota pays a fraction of that.
I have a good friend who is living near Shanghai China right now and told me
many interesting stories the last time he was here in the states. One
particular story that stands out was an his experience of taking an American
friend to a hospital for a separated shoulder. There's no insurance there
so when you're admitted you pony up there on the spot, or as in this case a
friend or family member pays for you. In the waiting room they had a "menu"
on the wall which listed costs for various procedures. For reattaching a
finger, $50. Reattaching a hand..$250, etc. There were a few people in the
waiting room that had their hands bandaged up from getting fingers caught in
presses. The hospical equipment and facilities were top notch, just as good
as they are in the US. For x-rays, examination, and prescription total cost
was less than $5.00. Hmmm, how does that stack up against the US...? My
wife was given Tylenol in the hospital when our daughter was born two years
ago, insurance was billed $10 just for that...
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Hangar space available at CNO |
Looking for one additional RV type airplane to share a 50 by 50 hangar at
Chino Airport. Available 1 January, 2008. Hangar includes a built in head,
utility sink and 220 volt power with painted floor. Ocupancy would be four
airplanes. One L-19 Bird Dog, and three RV type airplanes. Rent is $273.00 per
month, including utilities. Easy in and out, no airplanes have to be moved.
Contact Frank Vranicar
Home: 949 675 7595
Cell: 714 323 3424
**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
// Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in
legacy health care costs? Toyota pays a fraction of that.
A drive down the highway will reveal, however, that Americans don't buy cars
based on price. If they were, everyone would be driving the car I drive -- a
Chevy Cavalier.
The perception is that the American cars aren't very good. Perception may
not match reality NOW. But that's the thing about perception. Americans
aren't stupid. They know that it was true for a period of time and whatever
they trust they had disappeared and the American companies haven't gotten
thta trust back yet.
It's about value and quality.
Want me to buy American just because it's American. No, thanks. That removes
the incentive for American companies to produce American goods that are
worth buying. Want me to buy American? Show me an American product that
has good value and good quality and I'm all over it.
Look at it this way. I'll spend more money than I have to on this RV. I'll
buy tools from Bob Avery, or Cleaveland. I'll get avionics and wiring and
such from Stein Bruch and his gang. Could I go cheaper? Sure. But I pay for
quality because quality matters to me.
Companies that don't understand the principles of service and quality that
folks like Avery, Cleaveland and Stein provide deserve to die. They usually
do. Companies that do understand it deserve to thrive and THEY usually do.
It's really THAT simple. The dollar in my pocket is up for grabs. If i
don't spend it on cheap American junk, that's not my fault.
by the way, how come nobody here said a peep when Cirrus unveiled their LSA
at Oshkosh and announced it would be built in Poland?
Do not archive
Message 33
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| Subject: | Hangar space available at CNO |
Frank, Man! I would be all over that but CNO is just too far.
Fortunately I just got an LA hangar at WHP. Close to LA home #2. $273.00
for covered in LA is a good deal.
Robin
Home Base SBP
Do Not Archive
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Tailgummer@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:26 PM
Subject: RV-List: Hangar space available at CNO
Looking for one additional RV type airplane to share a 50 by 50 hangar
at Chino Airport. Available 1 January, 2008. Hangar includes a built
in head, utility sink and 220 volt power with painted floor. Ocupancy
would be four airplanes. One L-19 Bird Dog, and three RV type
airplanes. Rent is $273.00 per month, including utilities. Easy in and
out, no airplanes have to be moved.
Contact Frank Vranicar
Home: 949 675 7595
Cell: 714 323 3424
________________________________
<http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000300000000
0
1> and top money wasters
<http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aolt
o
p00030000000002> of 2007.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
Bob J. wrote:
> for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy health care
> costs?
What is "legacy health care"?
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM,
learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"
Ham Radio Repeater Database.
http://hrrdb.com
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising |
> // Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in
> legacy health care costs? Toyota pays a fraction of that.
>
And, do you know that most of this is for retired workers, with whom GM
contracted to pay those expenses as part of their (deferred)
compensation for services rendered, building cars?
And did you know that they are in this position because they bought into
their very on self-designed pyramid scheme by not funding accounts while
the workers were employed in order to cover these expenses, so that they
must now pay these expenses out of current sales? (Perhaps Toyota is
smart enough and ethical enough to plan for their contracted commitments.)
And did you know that the various American car manufacturers are now
defaulting on these contracts, with the assistance of our American
government, that is allowing them to default, using the 'logic' that
forcing them to pay might bankrupt them, or hurt their competitiveness?
I wonder if I'd have gotten the same help these mega corps are getting
if I'd defaulted on paying my handful of employees when I ran a business.
Talk about welfare...
Charlie
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