---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/01/07: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:53 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (panhandler1956) 2. 04:15 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Kevin Horton) 3. 04:45 AM - Re: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard (wskimike) 4. 05:19 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (N395V) 5. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Chuck Jensen) 6. 06:33 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins) 7. 07:17 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (jedwards) 8. 08:12 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Rob Prior) 9. 08:12 AM - Re: Intermittant Posts - Vista Related? (darnpilot@aol.com) 10. 10:00 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Terry Watson) 11. 10:06 AM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising () 12. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins) 13. 11:45 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Richard Dudley) 14. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Deems Davis) 15. 12:13 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Chuck Jensen) 16. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Ollie Washburn) 17. 12:24 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis) 18. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis) 19. 01:03 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Dave Nellis) 20. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Terry Watson) 21. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins) 22. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins) 23. 03:21 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (N395V) 24. 04:36 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins) 25. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (John Morgensen) 26. 05:48 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Vanremog@aol.com) 27. 05:56 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Vanremog@aol.com) 28. 06:40 PM - RV6A for sale (Fred Stucklen) 29. 06:46 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising () 30. 07:08 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob J.) 31. 07:31 PM - Hangar space available at CNO (Tailgummer@aol.com) 32. 07:56 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Bob Collins) 33. 08:22 PM - Re: Hangar space available at CNO (Robin Marks) 34. 09:39 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Chris W) 35. 10:18 PM - Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:24 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising From: "panhandler1956" Linn, Your points are not completely invalid - see I'm not a complete jerk. I believe given the current movement of Americans to at least empathize with the notion that buying things from China more advanced than a toothbrush (lead included) isn't a good idea, for alot of reasons, even though they do it anyway. Airplanes are an emotional purchase and no one wants to pull up on the ramp at a fly-in after spending $100,000 on their "pride n joy" to have the locals start with the "made in china" jokes. Cessna is about to find out I am right - IMHO! Good discussion - sorry not related to RVs. Do not archive -------- Brent O. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149826#149826 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:30 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising On 30-Nov-07, at 22:17 , panhandler1956 wrote: > So when will Boeing go to China, how bout Gulfstream, Lear, etc, > etc. I am embarrassed for Cessna. See: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html A quote from that Boeing web page: "China has an increasingly sophisticated and expanding part to play in the commercial aviation industry and has a role on all of Boeing commercial airplane models-737, 747, 767, 777 and the newest and most innovative airplane, the 787 Dreamliner. China builds horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins, the aft tail section, doors, wing panels and other parts on the 737; 747 trailing edge wing ribs; and 747-8 ailerons, spoilers and inboard flaps. China also has an important role on the new 787 Dreamliner airplane, building the rudder, wing-to-body fairing panels, leading edge and panels for the vertical fin, and other composite parts." Gulfstream purchases components from China: http://www.stork-aerospace.com/eCache/DEF/10/729.html "The Chinese aircraft manufacturer Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (part of AVIC-I) and Stork Aerospace have signed a contract for the machining of components for the Gulfstream G450, the G500 and the G550. " Lear is owned by Bombardier (a Canadian company, with manufacturing facilities on several continents), and Bombardier, like most of the aviation industry, purchases components for several models from China (but not yet any Learjet components, as near as I can tell). -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (final assemby) Greely, ON http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:14 AM PST US From: "wskimike" Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard As far as the time, you can take about $8.00 an hour for Vans to build your wing, which will take you alot more time because you don't do it every day. As far as the quickbuild wings, you still have to rivet the lower outboard skin which is where you pitot is. I have seen quite a few quick builds and the quality is as good as you can do and most of the time better unless you have quite a bit of experience. If money is not an issue, go with the quickbuild. You can still install an additional tank with the botom skin off but it might make it tougher. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Finch" Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:48 PM Subject: RV-List: Looking for advice on Wing and Fuse Kit: QB or Standard > > On Monday December 3 a buddy and I will each order the kits for the -9A, > and > of course we must choose between the Quick Build and Standard. > > We understand the principle of trading dollars for time, and both of us > lean > towards saving time. But we wonder what additional items or things might > we > want to do to the fuselage or wing, that would be difficult to do if > starting from the QB? For instance, I might want to extend the fuel tank 4 > or 5 gals on each side, and that would be almost impossible to do with the > QB wing. > > Or again, I am interested in using a combined pitot tube/angle-of-attack. > Is > this much harder to install with a QB wing? > > Also, how long have you taken building the Standard wing? > > If this has been asked before just point me to the thread.... > > [Also posted in the VAF ] > > Ralph Finch > Davis, California > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:01 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising From: "N395V" > to get good citizens killed over a pack > of lies. > You mean the spousings of Hilary, Murtha, Pelosi, Reid, and Michael Moore are getting people killed? -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149841#149841 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising From: "Chuck Jensen" Thanks, Chuck Jensen Diversified Technologies 2680 Westcott Blvd Knoxville, TN 37931 Phn: 865-539-9000 x100 Cell: 865-406-9001 Fax: 865-539-9001 cjensen@dts9000.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades! >>>>> Hi, Bob, are them shades or blinders? :-) Chuck Jensen Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:41 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Heh...heh... check back with me in 6.5 billion years. I should be about ready for my first flight by then. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Thanks, Chuck Jensen Diversified Technologies 2680 Westcott Blvd Knoxville, TN 37931 Phn: 865-539-9000 x100 Cell: 865-406-9001 Fax: 865-539-9001 cjensen@dts9000.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Collins the future's so bright, I gotta wear shades! >>>>> Hi, Bob, are them shades or blinders? :-) Chuck Jensen Do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:13 AM PST US From: "jedwards" Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising I'm OK with buying kits from the Philippines or any other democracy. (I don't think they build the kits in Czechoslovakia anymore). But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers in China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts there!!! On the other hand, I can see supporting a struggling democracy, improving their economy by international trade, where people have a voice to facilitate change. (Good grief, I sound like a politician) John Edwards RV-9A - Empennage _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising So our money ought to go to the Philippines rather than China? Vans have their quickbuild kits assembled in the Philippines and Czechoslovakia. My Toyota pickup was assembled in California. We have a world economy and we all benefit from it. Most products of any significant complexity are assembled from parts all over the world, just like the Boeing 787. Terry RV-8A N838T (Reserved) - not built in the Philippines, if that could possibly matter to anyone ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:19 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising On 7:14 2007-12-01 "jedwards" wrote: > But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers > in China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, > and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts > there!!! As someone who works for a company who outsources manufacturing to China (and other countries), I have to say that this isn't completely true. I've visited two of our contract manufacturers in China, and know first-hand that workers there are treated better than average, if your description above is average. There may be factories in China making products for use in China, that westerners don't ever see. But our company at least has strict controls over our contract manufacturers requiring them to be ISO certified, and to uphold standards for the ethical treatment of workers. Yes, we pay a little more for that, but it's still cheaper than paying people in North America to do the same thing. > On the other hand, I can see supporting a struggling > democracy, improving their economy by international trade, where > people have a voice to facilitate change. Are you referring to the US, or are you still thinking about the Phillipines? :) -Rob ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Intermittant Posts - Vista Related? From: darnpilot@aol.com I have Vista Home Premium and have no problems with email, but I use aol as the provider.? Maybe the better question is who is your ISP and mail server? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Kyle Boatright Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:25 pm Subject: RV-List: Intermittant Posts - Vista Related? I have just upgraded to a new PC that runs Vista and Windows Mail.?The only problem I'm having is that about 80% of RV-list traffic isn't making it to the new PC.? It?shows up on the old PC if I look there. ? As far as I can tell, I have all of the e-mail security options set so there are no e-mail filters?and everything should appear in my inbox.? Well, many RV-list postings don't make it to my inbox or the junk e-mail folder. ? RV-list traffic seems to be the only?problematic e-mail.? ? Has anyone else experienced this on switching to Vista?? Advise is appreciated. ? By the way, my ISP was worthless.? "We don't have troubleshooting help for Vista/Windows Mail" ? Do not archive. ? Kyle Boatright ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:39 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising China is a strange case that many of us would not have thought possible twenty years ago - a relatively free market operating in a politically oppressive communist state. I still believe (hope) that free markets will bring free minds. In an ethical sense, I believe we should buy from the source that gives us the best value for our money, regardless of the race or ethnicity or home town or political system under which it was made - with some limited exceptions. Slave labor, such as China has been accused of using in the past, is unacceptable. It's hard to imagine a justification for buying anything built in North Korea, for example, but that is a mute point because I am unaware of anything of value being built there for export other than nuclear weapons. By rewarding those who give us the best value for our money, we are making the system work and encouraging the thing that is at the heart of making us all better off - productivity. Each of us may have different reasons for our decisions beyond the best value for the money. Some may want to insist that their coffee is "fair trade" certified. I do not. Many want to know that their building materials have some kind of "sustainable" stamp of approval. I don't. I think markets do a decent job with those issues, even though others will strongly disagree. It does concern me that China's explosive growth is giving technological power to a country that is still a potential enemy, but economies that are tightly entwined have every reason to avoid conflict. China is rushing through an industrial revolution at unprecedented speed. The current flap about lead paint I see as a part of that revolution. Some Chinese manufacturers were careless or took a short cut and now they and other Chinese manufacturers are paying a very steep price for it. You can bet that if they didn't know how important their reputation was to their profit before, they certainly do now. The world is changing at an ever increasing pace. We have to adjust to it or we will get left out of the great things that change has to offer, but we have to do it without losing or compromising the values and principles that make it all worthwhile. And leave it to Kevin to mess up a good flame party with some facts! Terry _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jedwards Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising I'm OK with buying kits from the Philippines or any other democracy. (I don't think they build the kits in Czechoslovakia anymore). But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers in China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts there!!! On the other hand, I can see supporting a struggling democracy, improving their economy by international trade, where people have a voice to facilitate change. (Good grief, I sound like a politician) John Edwards RV-9A - Empennage _____ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising So our money ought to go to the Philippines rather than China? Vans have their quickbuild kits assembled in the Philippines and Czechoslovakia. My Toyota pickup was assembled in California. We have a world economy and we all benefit from it. Most products of any significant complexity are assembled from parts all over the world, just like the Boeing 787. Terry RV-8A N838T (Reserved) - not built in the Philippines, if that could possibly matter to anyone ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:28 AM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising World economy. The corporations will not be happy until our USA standard of living declines as other nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD Economy. Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever ever ever again. Between China huge trade advantage and India raining US jobs, while US jobs disappear is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours Cessna. THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, America, write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never heard of. Of course they hide behind some US distributor address. I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and EAA. G (Woun't do any good but I'll feel better for a minute.) --------------------------------- Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:25 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising //THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, America, write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never heard of. Of course they hide behind some US distributor address. So if I have this straight. We favor capitalism -- which is a free-market economy -- until...... ? If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care what engine is used to power them? This debate reminds me of the old debates when shopping malls sprung up on the outskirts of towns and then the downtowns declined. Lots of people kvetched about the decline of downtowns, and all of them were in a position to do something about it when it mattered: shop downtown. If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their engines are going to be built in Germany or France, are you going to park YOUR airplane? I didn't think so. The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's to be the beneficiary of it, by being better. My guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff coming from China is cheap junk. You're worried that it won't be. Everyone points to Detroit as what happens because of foreign competition. Nonsense. Detroit's automakers spent the first half of the last generation building stuff people didn't want and the last half trying to change the laws so it didn't matter. And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get to dictate what i'll buy based on whatever factors *I* want to consider. If you want my business, satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to limit my choices. The American Way is to be better. So stop complaining. Be better. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:46 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Bob, I, for one, appreciate your calling it as it is!!! Richard Bob Collins wrote: > //THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, > America, write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines > (Rotax) and not our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of > sudden we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never heard of. Of > course they hide behind some US distributor address. > > So if I have this straight. We favor capitalism -- which is a > free-market economy -- until...... ? > > If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care what engine is used to > power them? > > This debate reminds me of the old debates when shopping malls sprung > up on the outskirts of towns and then the downtowns declined. Lots of > people kvetched about the decline of downtowns, and all of them were > in a position to do something about it when it mattered: shop downtown. > > If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their engines are going to be > built in Germany or France, are you going to park YOUR airplane? > > I didn't think so. > > The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's to be the > beneficiary of it, by being better. > > My guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff coming from China > is cheap junk. You're worried that it won't be. > > Everyone points to Detroit as what happens because of foreign > competition. Nonsense. Detroit's automakers spent the first half of > the last generation building stuff people didn't want and the last > half trying to change the laws so it didn't matter. > > And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get to dictate what > i'll buy based on whatever factors *I* want to consider. If you want > my business, satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to limit my choices. > > The American Way is to be better. So stop complaining. Be better. > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:39 AM PST US From: Deems Davis Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising How 'bout Them Red Sox!! Deems Davis # 406 'Its all done....Its just not put together' http://deemsrv10.com/* * ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:43 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising From: "Chuck Jensen" From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jedwards I'm OK with buying kits from the Philippines or any other democracy. (I don't think they build the kits in Czechoslovakia anymore). But I do have a problem buying from communist countries. The workers in China are paid very little, no health care, no industrial safety, and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions focusing there efforts there!!! On the other hand, I can see supporting a struggling democracy, improving their economy by international trade, where people have a voice to facilitate change. (Good grief, I sound like a politician) John Edwards RV-9A - Empennag In spite of the low wages, one advantage of the Chinese system of industrial safety and protection of the environment is very few workers end up spending their retirement years in poverty---most don't live that long. Chuck ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:41 PM PST US From: "Ollie Washburn" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Rans LSA's are not foreign made and we don't have an engine that comes close to the Rotax specs. Ollie Rans S7S 198 trouble free hrs. since Feb.07 Also RV6A with over 1000 hrs. On Dec 1, 2007 1:05 PM, wrote: > World economy. The corporations will not be happy until our USA standard > of living declines as other nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD > Economy. Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever ever ever > again. Between China huge trade advantage and India raining US jobs, while > US jobs disappear is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours Cessna. > > THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. How did we, America, > write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not > our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden we had 40 LSA > planes from companies that I never heard of. Of course they hide behind some > US distributor address. > I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and EAA. G (Woun't do any > good but I'll feel better for a minute.) > > ------------------------------ > Be a better pen pal. > > * > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:42 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising --- Rob Prior wrote: > > > On 7:14 2007-12-01 "jedwards" > wrote: > > But I do have a problem buying from communist > countries. The workers > > in China are paid very little, no health care, no > industrial safety, > > and no say in anything. Why aren't the unions > focusing there efforts > > there!!! > > As someone who works for a company who outsources > manufacturing to China > (and other countries), I have to say that this isn't > completely true. I've > visited two of our contract manufacturers in China, > and know first-hand > that workers there are treated better than average, > if your description > above is average. > > There may be factories in China making products for > use in China, that > westerners don't ever see. But our company at least > has strict controls > over our contract manufacturers requiring them to be > ISO certified, and to > uphold standards for the ethical treatment of > workers. Yes, we pay a > little more for that, but it's still cheaper than > paying people in North > America to do the same thing. > So you would put your neighbor out of work to put an extra buck in your pocket? God help us all. > > On the other hand, I can see supporting a > struggling > > democracy, improving their economy by > international trade, where > > people have a voice to facilitate change. > > Are you referring to the US, or are you still > thinking about the > Phillipines? :) > > -Rob > > > > Click on > about > Admin. > > browse > Un/Subscription, > FAQ, > > Forums! > > > > > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:50 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising My sentiments exactly. Take care of the USA first and if their is anything left over, give it away. Dave --- gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote: > World economy. The corporations will not be happy > until our USA standard of living declines as other > nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD Economy. > Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever > ever ever again. Between China huge trade advantage > and India raining US jobs, while US jobs disappear > is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours > Cessna. > > THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. > How did we, America, write FAR's that favored so > many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our > own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden > we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never > heard of. Of course they hide behind some US > distributor address. > > I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and > EAA. G (Woun't do any good but I'll feel better for > a minute.) > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends > inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:39 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Not likely but possible: Bob Collins goes to work Monday morning and finds a note on his desk, see the boss. He goes to the bosses office and finds him with a somber look. "Bob, the country is out of work, because everything is outsourced, made in China and India. Nobody is donating to Public Television, our last telethon was a flop. We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob". What do you do now? This could effect everyone in this country. I respect your right to choose, but you have to choose with more than your pocketbook. Choose with your future in mind. Today's young people don't understand this, but they can hack a computer or a video game or hop up a little rice grinder that goes way too fast and is loud. Balance the trade deficit, a dollar in equals a dollar out. In Japan, an American made car sells for at least 50% of what it would sell for in the states. Why? The government tariffs these vehicles beyond feasibility of purchase. This basically means the Japanese government subsidizes the dumping of Japanese cars into the USA, and the American public happily buys them up not feeling one bit of guilt for not supporting American industry and his neighbor that works there. To top it off, our own government could care less about any of this. When was the last time anyone saw the government do anything for the working class or for all individuals, rich and poor alike, that did not favor the wealthy? Bob, This has been a sore spot for me for well over 15 years as I have been trying to keep my family housed and fed watching all the jobs disappear, wondering if this is the day I will get laid off or not. All I am trying to do is make people see a point of view they may have never seen. Come to Detroit and try and find a job. You will be glad that you have a job in Minnesota. Buy American, Build American, Be American --- Bob Collins wrote: > //THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. > How did we, America, > write FAR's that favored so many foreign planes and > engines (Rotax) and not > our own industry? I knew it was bull when all of > sudden we had 40 LSA > planes from companies that I never heard of. Of > course they hide behind some > US distributor address. > > So if I have this straight. We favor capitalism -- > which is a free-market > economy -- until...... ? > > If you're not flying LSAs, what do you care what > engine is used to power > them? > > This debate reminds me of the old debates when > shopping malls sprung up on > the outskirts of towns and then the downtowns > declined. Lots of people > kvetched about the decline of downtowns, and all of > them were in a position > to do something about it when it mattered: shop > downtown. > > If Lycoming announces tomorrow that their engines > are going to be built in > Germany or France, are you going to park YOUR > airplane? > > I didn't think so. > > The response to competition isn't to stifle it. It's > to be the beneficiary > of it, by being better. > > My guess is you folks aren't worried that the stuff > coming from China is > cheap junk. You're worried that it won't be. > > Everyone points to Detroit as what happens because > of foreign competition. > Nonsense. Detroit's automakers spent the first half > of the last generation > building stuff people didn't want and the last half > trying to change the > laws so it didn't matter. > > And they still haven't learned their lesson. I get > to dictate what i'll buy > based on whatever factors *I* want to consider. If > you want my business, > satisfy me. If you can't, don't try to limit my > choices. > > The American Way is to be better. So stop > complaining. Be better. > > Do not archive > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:17 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising I wonder what RV owners/builders/flyers on this list from all over the world think of that. Take a course in basic economics. This group think -- my race, my religion, my city, my state my country -- attempts to obscure the idea that we are all individuals with the same rights to the results of our efforts as everyone else. It's just that some of us live in countries that recognize that right more than others. And along with the course in economics, maybe one in U.S. history to remind yourself just why this country was created. Let me assure you that it was NOT to provide a central power to dictate the economic choices of the citizens -- it was to protect us from those who would try to impose such control over our lives. "Buy American, Build American, Be American"??? Some, including me, find that downright un-American and more than a little embarrassing. How could anyone possibly claim the moral high ground by denying their neighbors the right to make their own economic choices? Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Nellis Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:28 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising My sentiments exactly. Take care of the USA first and if their is anything left over, give it away. Dave --- gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote: > World economy. The corporations will not be happy > until our USA standard of living declines as other > nations rise to meet ours. The ONE WORLD Economy. > Just one more reason NOT to buy a Cessna or LSA ever > ever ever again. Between China huge trade advantage > and India raining US jobs, while US jobs disappear > is enough to discourage you. I say a BIG up yours > Cessna. > > THAT IS WHY I HATE LSA's, most are foreign made. > How did we, America, write FAR's that favored so > many foreign planes and engines (Rotax) and not our > own industry? I knew it was bull when all of sudden > we had 40 LSA planes from companies that I never > heard of. Of course they hide behind some US > distributor address. > > I am going to write all my Reps, Cessna, AOPA and > EAA. G (Woun't do any good but I'll feel better for > a minute.) > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends > inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:30 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Just a quick interruption here on the Matronics world economy list for a truly hysterical observation on the refueling of small airplanes overseas. http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/the_way_vs_a_way_japan_ v_china.php ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:57 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising //flop. We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob". //What do you do now? Are you kidding me? do youknow what business I'm in? I'm in the mainstream news business. This isn't a hypothetical scenario, this is what we live with every day. The newsppaer industry is getting shredded. You know why? They'll tell yo it's because of CraigsList and Facebook, and the Internet. I'll tell you because they didn't adapt. They continued to act as if THEY are the pillar of all information and it'll be news to you when they say it will be... and you'll take it their way and you'll like it. and now they're paying the price. Sad? yes. As it should be? Absolutely. Now, sense you posed the hypothetical, let me tell you exactly what I do. Because I'm doing it now. I've been up here in the upper Midwest working for my current employer for 15 years. I was their first editor and I did a great job. When they decided they wanted to get into online, they asked me to handle the content. And I did another great job. I invented new ways to tell stories online...Minnesota Fantasy legislature and Select A Candidate. and a few weeks ago they asked me to start something new (for us), an online host/blog that makes the news more personal....that changes the way (once I get it perfected) newsrooms relate to the audience. It debuted last night http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/ Now, i have to tell you I am VERY concerned about this new role because it's full of risk in a business on short margins. I've spent many sleepless nights the last few weeks wondering what I'll do if it doens't work out. Even considering stopping the RV project to put more emergency funds away. So what do I do? I work hard and I try to shape this thing and I try to make it as popular as I've made the other things I've worked on here. Do I appreciate having a job? You bet. Do I have a right to keep that job? Absolutely not. I have to EARN my way right up until the day I retire. If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm 53 in a dying industry... I probably won't be able to get another job that will pay me as much as I make now. So I'll do the best I can, work at Home Depot if I have to, may be shop an article or two, cut some expenses, and try to figure out a niche that I can fill in a competitive world. This is the way life is. We can either waste our energy wish it weren't so. Or we do what we can to make it better. By the way, the broad sweeping generalization of "today's kids" make me want to throw up. Y'all need to stop your whining and stop looking at everyone else as the source of your problems. Your closets are full of shirts make overseas, your garages have foreign cars... your tool chests are full of stuff made in China and nobody put any of those things there but you. Can we get to talking about building freakin' RVs now? Do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:35 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising From: "N395V" Food for thought........ video takes about 3 minutes http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/shifthappens do not archive -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=149927#149927 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:00 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Unless I misinterpreted, the presentation suggested that people having 10-14 different jobs by age 38 is a BAD thing. My youngest son, age 19 now, has had... let's see 7 so far. Of course he had 3 at once when he was a senior in high school. One of those "kids today that are too lazy to work," probably. He went out last night, I noticed, with a girl down the street who was a 4.0 student in high school... will graduate next year from college with a degree in biology and could probably strike it rich, but she wants to come back to town... and be a teacher. I guess so that she can hear constantly from people with 1/4th the I.Q. -- and certainly the knowledge -- about what a terrible job she's doing and how lazy she is. I'm not too worried about the next generation. The best we can do is probably get out of their way. They're going to make us proud. I come from a country of optimists with a "can do" spirit. No worries. Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:21 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Food for thought........ video takes about 3 minutes http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/video/shifthappens do not archive -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:28 PM PST US From: John Morgensen Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Thanks, Bob I couldn't have said it better. But then, I don't write for a living. I would add that I find it hard to accept that a person capable of building an airplane would resort to playing the "victim" card. John Morgensen Bob Collins wrote: > > //flop. We have to lay you off. Sorry Bob". > > //What do you do now? > > > Are you kidding me? do youknow what business I'm in? I'm in the mainstream > news business. This isn't a hypothetical scenario, this is what we live > with every day. The newsppaer industry is getting shredded. You know why? > They'll tell yo it's because of CraigsList and Facebook, and the Internet. > I'll tell you because they didn't adapt. They continued to act as if THEY > are the pillar of all information and it'll be news to you when they say it > will be... and you'll take it their way and you'll like it. > > and now they're paying the price. Sad? yes. As it should be? Absolutely. > > Now, sense you posed the hypothetical, let me tell you exactly what I do. > Because I'm doing it now. > > I've been up here in the upper Midwest working for my current employer for > 15 years. I was their first editor and I did a great job. When they decided > they wanted to get into online, they asked me to handle the content. And I > did another great job. I invented new ways to tell stories > online...Minnesota Fantasy legislature and Select A Candidate. > > and a few weeks ago they asked me to start something new (for us), an online > host/blog that makes the news more personal....that changes the way (once I > get it perfected) newsrooms relate to the audience. It debuted last night > http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/ > > Now, i have to tell you I am VERY concerned about this new role because it's > full of risk in a business on short margins. I've spent many sleepless > nights the last few weeks wondering what I'll do if it doens't work out. > Even considering stopping the RV project to put more emergency funds away. > > So what do I do? I work hard and I try to shape this thing and I try to make > it as popular as I've made the other things I've worked on here. > > Do I appreciate having a job? You bet. Do I have a right to keep that job? > Absolutely not. I have to EARN my way right up until the day I retire. > > If I lose my job tomorrow, I'm 53 in a dying industry... I probably won't be > able to get another job that will pay me as much as I make now. So I'll do > the best I can, work at Home Depot if I have to, may be shop an article or > two, cut some expenses, and try to figure out a niche that I can fill in a > competitive world. > > This is the way life is. We can either waste our energy wish it weren't so. > Or we do what we can to make it better. > > By the way, the broad sweeping generalization of "today's kids" make me want > to throw up. > > Y'all need to stop your whining and stop looking at everyone else as the > source of your problems. Your closets are full of shirts make overseas, your > garages have foreign cars... your tool chests are full of stuff made in > China and nobody put any of those things there but you. > > Can we get to talking about building freakin' RVs now? > > Do not archive > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:21 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising In a message dated 11/27/2007 9:52:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rosesrv6a@yahoo.com writes: Ever wonder how China makes stuff cheaper than Us ? The Construction Site Hard Hat The Dust and Particle Free Breathing Apparatus OSHA Approved Scaffolding And my all-time favorite.. The =9CNew=9D Lightweight Welders Mask **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:38 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising In a message dated 11/27/2007 9:52:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, rosesrv6a@yahoo.com writes: Ever wonder how China makes stuff cheaper than Us ? The Construction Site Hard Hat The Dust and Particle Free Breathing Apparatus OSHA Approved Scaffolding And my all-time favorite.. The =9CNew=9D Lightweight Welders Mask **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:30 PM PST US From: "Fred Stucklen" Subject: RV-List: RV6A for sale Hi all, Time to sell my RV-6A so I can finish the RV-7A...... Here's the data for anyone interested.... I'm planning on posting it in trade-A-Plane next week... Full Night/Day VFR and IFR equipped RV-6A with Tip-up canopy, conventional "steam" gage flight instruments, with standby vacuum system, PS Engineering PMA6000M-S Audio Panel, Dual SL-30 NAV/COMMs with dual MD-200 CDI's, GX50 IFR approach certified GPS, SL-70 transponder, D10 EFIS (as a backup or right side instrument) , PXE7300 High Fidelity Stereo in -Flight entertainment system, WX-950 Storm Scope, S-Tec System 30 auto-pilot with Altitude hold, with a GPSS interface, an Auto pilot DG for heading hold, and an XM radio receiver with Blue Tooth and USB interface to a hand held device that will display weather information (I use a tablet Computer mounted on a RAM mount), Aero Sport Power O-320 Carb'ed 160 HP engine with 9:1 pistons, Vetterman Exhaust, a standard right mag, and a P-MAG electronic ignition, fixed pitch Sensenich CM70 series cruise prop, Skybolt Cowling system, Whelen Anti-Collision lighting system, Dual landing/taxi (130W/90W) lights, Dual Brakes, Electric elevator trim, cabin lighting, electronic panel dimmer, manual aileron trim, electric flaps. The electrical system is a dual battery system with automatic isolation of the Aux battery in the event of a buss under voltage, single 60 A B&C alternator and regulator, Electronics International engine gages including a 16 channel EGT/CHT gage. There are 7 "D" size schematics of the electrical system (including avionics wiring). There are four access panels in front of the windshield to enable easy access to the avionics and electrical system wiring. I also have a full documentation package for the aircraft. I've installed the Jon Johansson Tip tanks at 9.5 gals each which results in a total of 56 gals of fuel, or about 7.5 hours till fuel exhaustion at economy cruise. I fly hard/serious IFR in this aircraft and have flown several coast to coast trips, including a three week tour of Alaska. It's a serious traveling machine. Empty weight is 1150 lbs, with a gross weight of 1850 lbs. 850 Hrs TT Engine & airframe. The plane will be sold with a fresh conditional inspection. It has always been hangered. Tel: (860)-490-3933, email: rv6a4sale@cox.net More pictures & documents at http://members.cox.net/rv6a4sale Fred Stucklen ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:47 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Having been around a while, I'll just give two examples I observed over my past 68 years. Yes this about unions, of which my grandfather, my dad & myself were members, at Kaiser Steel 1: Kaiser Steel in Fontana CA. Ya that right..where they built the raceway. Kaiser Steel was attempting to cut costs and compete with Japan in steel production. One of the union mouths said "We aint given nuttin back, Kaiser will never close". The raceway is not near it's on the old steel mill grounds. #2: A TV report from Detroit where there was a auto strike going on. Woman in tears, "I don't know what we're going to do, the union fund is not enough to live on". She said this as she got into her new Volvo parked next to the VW Vanogan and Mazada sedan in her diveway as she headed for the market. DUH...could they have been part of the problem ??. Buy American when you have a choice...what a concept.... KABONG >Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising > >"Buy American, Build American, Be American"??? Some, including me, find >that downright un-American and more than a little embarrassing. How could >anyone possibly claim the moral high ground by denying their neighbors the >right to make their own economic choices? > >Terry ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:17 PM PST US From: "Bob J." Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising On Nov 30, 2007 9:20 PM, Dave Nellis wrote: > > Keep on buying foreign products, keep buying your > Toyatas, Hondas, or any rice burner made. Sooner or > later, it will catch up to you and you will lose your > job. You will collect unemployment. You will lose > your house. You will be out on the street wondering > "Where did I go wrong?" > I remember hearing this same sort of rhetoric during the 80's about the Japanese. In 2007 instead its the Chinese, not the Japanese. I have several friends who work at the Subaru-Isuzu plant near Lafayette, IN. Guess what? They're profitable, after a year of employment hourly employees make as much as their UAW counterparts. BTW they are hiring. There's a Toyota truck plant in Princeton, IN, same story. Honda is building a new plant near Greenfield, IN. What do these companies not have that their US competitors do? 1. unions, 2. overcompensated and incompetent executive management, and 3. legacy health care costs. Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy health care costs? Toyota pays a fraction of that. I have a good friend who is living near Shanghai China right now and told me many interesting stories the last time he was here in the states. One particular story that stands out was an his experience of taking an American friend to a hospital for a separated shoulder. There's no insurance there so when you're admitted you pony up there on the spot, or as in this case a friend or family member pays for you. In the waiting room they had a "menu" on the wall which listed costs for various procedures. For reattaching a finger, $50. Reattaching a hand..$250, etc. There were a few people in the waiting room that had their hands bandaged up from getting fingers caught in presses. The hospical equipment and facilities were top notch, just as good as they are in the US. For x-rays, examination, and prescription total cost was less than $5.00. Hmmm, how does that stack up against the US...? My wife was given Tylenol in the hospital when our daughter was born two years ago, insurance was billed $10 just for that... Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:43 PM PST US From: Tailgummer@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Hangar space available at CNO Looking for one additional RV type airplane to share a 50 by 50 hangar at Chino Airport. Available 1 January, 2008. Hangar includes a built in head, utility sink and 220 volt power with painted floor. Ocupancy would be four airplanes. One L-19 Bird Dog, and three RV type airplanes. Rent is $273.00 per month, including utilities. Easy in and out, no airplanes have to be moved. Contact Frank Vranicar Home: 949 675 7595 Cell: 714 323 3424 **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:05 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising // Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy health care costs? Toyota pays a fraction of that. A drive down the highway will reveal, however, that Americans don't buy cars based on price. If they were, everyone would be driving the car I drive -- a Chevy Cavalier. The perception is that the American cars aren't very good. Perception may not match reality NOW. But that's the thing about perception. Americans aren't stupid. They know that it was true for a period of time and whatever they trust they had disappeared and the American companies haven't gotten thta trust back yet. It's about value and quality. Want me to buy American just because it's American. No, thanks. That removes the incentive for American companies to produce American goods that are worth buying. Want me to buy American? Show me an American product that has good value and good quality and I'm all over it. Look at it this way. I'll spend more money than I have to on this RV. I'll buy tools from Bob Avery, or Cleaveland. I'll get avionics and wiring and such from Stein Bruch and his gang. Could I go cheaper? Sure. But I pay for quality because quality matters to me. Companies that don't understand the principles of service and quality that folks like Avery, Cleaveland and Stein provide deserve to die. They usually do. Companies that do understand it deserve to thrive and THEY usually do. It's really THAT simple. The dollar in my pocket is up for grabs. If i don't spend it on cheap American junk, that's not my fault. by the way, how come nobody here said a peep when Cirrus unveiled their LSA at Oshkosh and announced it would be built in Poland? Do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Hangar space available at CNO From: "Robin Marks" Frank, Man! I would be all over that but CNO is just too far. Fortunately I just got an LA hangar at WHP. Close to LA home #2. $273.00 for covered in LA is a good deal. Robin Home Base SBP Do Not Archive From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tailgummer@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:26 PM Subject: RV-List: Hangar space available at CNO Looking for one additional RV type airplane to share a 50 by 50 hangar at Chino Airport. Available 1 January, 2008. Hangar includes a built in head, utility sink and 220 volt power with painted floor. Ocupancy would be four airplanes. One L-19 Bird Dog, and three RV type airplanes. Rent is $273.00 per month, including utilities. Easy in and out, no airplanes have to be moved. Contact Frank Vranicar Home: 949 675 7595 Cell: 714 323 3424 ________________________________ and top money wasters of 2007. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:43 PM PST US From: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising Bob J. wrote: > for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in legacy health care > costs? What is "legacy health care"? -- Chris W KE5GIX "Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm" Ham Radio Repeater Database. http://hrrdb.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:40 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Chinese LSA - Starting a Flame Uprising > // Do you know that for every GM vehicle made GM pays out over $1500 in > legacy health care costs? Toyota pays a fraction of that. > And, do you know that most of this is for retired workers, with whom GM contracted to pay those expenses as part of their (deferred) compensation for services rendered, building cars? And did you know that they are in this position because they bought into their very on self-designed pyramid scheme by not funding accounts while the workers were employed in order to cover these expenses, so that they must now pay these expenses out of current sales? (Perhaps Toyota is smart enough and ethical enough to plan for their contracted commitments.) And did you know that the various American car manufacturers are now defaulting on these contracts, with the assistance of our American government, that is allowing them to default, using the 'logic' that forcing them to pay might bankrupt them, or hurt their competitiveness? I wonder if I'd have gotten the same help these mega corps are getting if I'd defaulted on paying my handful of employees when I ran a business. Talk about welfare... 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