Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:17 AM - Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Charles Heathco)
2. 07:46 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Ron Lee)
3. 08:17 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Ron Lee)
4. 08:17 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Richard Dudley)
5. 09:11 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Rob Prior)
6. 09:45 AM - Re: 2 or 3 blade props ()
7. 09:49 AM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Steven Eberhart)
8. 10:16 AM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Ron Lee)
9. 10:21 AM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Carlos Hernandez)
10. 11:24 AM - Re: update on hangar lighting (Brian Meyette)
11. 11:49 AM - Polished prop's (Carlos Hernandez)
12. 03:16 PM - Re: update on hangar lighting (Charlie England)
13. 03:41 PM - Re: update on hangar lighting (David Burton)
14. 07:24 PM - Re: Polished prop's (Michael D. Cencula)
15. 08:33 PM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (David Leonard)
16. 08:42 PM - From the Ground Up (bruce breckenridge)
17. 11:16 PM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (tom sargent)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's |
Shortly after I bought my 6a, I went on a trip with another 6a with
almost ident paint job, with 3 blade and 160hp. I have 2 blade 150hp. He
told me he had to max it out to stay with me as I was lead. On return he
asked if I wanted to do form takeoff, and altho hadnt before, I said
yes.( him in lead) I stayed with him thru long ground effect run and
sharp pullup that we like to do (Rv builders on the ground watching), an
then broke off with an instictive vert pull and hard rt turn when he
pulled left in front of me. Other factors have a bearing of course, but
that is my take on the 3 vs 2 blade comparison. I will add that he said
his 6a performed better with the Cato than with his previous 2 blade.
Charlie Heathco
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? |
I doubt that it uses current SARSAT satellites. As Rob mentions in a reply,
the "I am OK/Check-in" position reporting function seems helpful. It would
greatly reduce
the area that needs to be searched in the event of a problem.
If I did not already have a 406 MHz PLB I would probably get one of the Spot
systems.
Ron Lee
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? |
The other point is that after 4-5 years it becomes more expensive
than a 406 MHz PLB when you add in the $100/year cost.
However, the "I am OK/Check-in" function is one that a PLB does not
have and can easily justify the extra cost.
Ron Lee
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? |
There is another site that advertises this unit for $20 less. See:
https://secure.baxinternet.com/~satdir/spot_sales_order.html
RHDudley
Ron Lee wrote:
>
> I doubt that it uses current SARSAT satellites. As Rob mentions in a
> reply,
> the "I am OK/Check-in" position reporting function seems helpful. It
> would greatly reduce
> the area that needs to be searched in the event of a problem.
>
> If I did not already have a 406 MHz PLB I would probably get one of
> the Spot
> systems.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? |
On 8:16 2008-01-10 Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> There is another site that advertises this unit for $20 less. See:
> https://secure.baxinternet.com/~satdir/spot_sales_order.html
They could give the units away for free and still make money on the system.
It's the yearly fee that's paying their bills, not the capital received
from selling units.
I heard that COPA (Canadian Owners and Pilot's Association) is trying to
arrange a discount for it's members. Maybe AOPA would do the same in the
US?
-Rob
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 2 or 3 blade props |
The best value, performance, customer support by far is
a BA (blended airfoil) from Vans. A three blade hartzell
is going to be heavy.
Short answer is buy a BA Harzell from Van and be
done.
The other choice is a MT prop. They are fine but will be
significantly slower (6 mph at least, some report 9 mph
or more). It will cost more to buy a MT, repair and
overhaul. It will be way more expensive and time
consuming, because you have to ship it to Germany for
major repair. Also a small thing like a nick or erosion
shield de-bonding, coming loose, means removal of the
prop and shipping it, ie big BUCKS.
A nick on a metal prop like a Hartzell might mean 5
minutes on the ramp with a super fine spoon file to
blend the little nick out.
If you want a WHITE prop get a Hartzell and paint it
white and put pretty stripes on it if you want.
I CANT OVER emphasize how much better Hartzell's
service support will be. There are prop shops all over
the US. You can even fly into Hartzell (Ohio) and they
will repair your prop while you wait or overnight. You
can call Hartzell and talk to an engineer or service
expert in English, any work day of the week. MT? They
speak German and the America centers tend to be
staffed with sales people or technicians, not engineers.
Van had the choice to overhaul a MT on one of his
demo planes. The DOWN time was going to be long (a
few weeks) and cost was going to be the better part of a
new Hartzell. So they overhauled a Hartzell they had
laying around the shop and had it back in a few days for
less than $2k. This was in the RVator, so no hate mail,
its Van saying this.
MT is a good company, but it's a foreign company, a
small boutique prop company. They are getting better,
adding service centers, but chances are you will be far
away from one. Composites and bonding is a wonderful
thing but cost more and not easily ramp repaired.
Last is performance. There is no debate. The fair and
balanced unbiased tests have shown consistently the
MT wood blade props are slower. That is to be
expected. Wood blades are thicker and therefore lose
efficiency at high speed. It's NOT a put down just
aerodynamic facts and reality. Now the plus side is they
are "smoother". Well I have flown metal blades and if
balanced (with a balanced engine) and good engine
mounts metal blades are plenty smooth. There is no
doubt wood has its own natural dampening
characteristics. Also a MT prop will be lighter. Here are
some good links to Prop info.
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9791/prop200415me.jpg
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4741/prop200559zw.jpg
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Prop.htm
http://www.lazy8.net/proptest.htm
Enjoy, its a personal choice but a very expensive one. George
***************
>From: "Rick Barnes" <rickbarnes@highlanddental.com>
>Subject: 2 or 3 blade props
>Let's get back to the building of RV10's. I've seen some 10's with 2 blade
>and a few with 3 blade props. I've heard many differing ideas on which
to
>use. Why have some chosen going with a 2 and some with 3 blades? I know
>3's are sexier and smoother running, but some of us are too old to care
>about that. Rick
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's |
Charles Heathco wrote:
> Shortly after I bought my 6a, I went on a trip with another 6a with
> almost ident paint job, with 3 blade and 160hp. I have 2 blade 150hp.
> He told me he had to max it out to stay with me as I was lead. On
> return he asked if I wanted to do form takeoff, and altho hadnt
> before, I said yes.( him in lead) I stayed with him thru long ground
> effect run and sharp pullup that we like to do (Rv builders on the
> ground watching), an then broke off with an instictive vert pull and
> hard rt turn when he pulled left in front of me. Other factors have a
> bearing of course, but that is my take on the 3 vs 2 blade comparison.
> I will add that he said his 6a performed better with the Cato than
> with his previous 2 blade. Charlie Heathco
Within about a month we will have a better comparison of 3 vs 2 blade
propellers. My hangar mate and building buddy has an RV-7 with a
Mattituck O-360 180 HP engine and Sensenich fixed pitch metal prop. I
am putting a Catto 3 blade on my RV-7A O-360 180 HP that should be
flying sometime in April. My Catto prop is scheduled to ship in another
week. When it gets here we are going to put it on my hangar mates RV-7
and get comparison performance numbers for both props on the same
plane. Should be interesting.
Steve Eberhart
RV-7A - O-360-A1A, Catto 3 blade, Slider and a whole bunch of Kandy
Apple Red paint
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's |
When I changed my Aymar-Demuth 2 blade for a catto three blade
(will need to provide prop specs on both) I saw a 3-3.5 knot improvement
in 75% power, full speed with the Catto prop.
Personally, a Hartzell blended airfoil 2 blade would be optimal.
I know of a guy using a MT 2 blade constat speed prop and has had prop
grease leaage issues on the original and a replacement prop.
Ron Lee
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's |
This is especially interesting to me. You have essentially the same
setup as I have planned for my 7A. I will be waiting for the follow up
info on this.
Carlos in AZ
Do not archive
Steven Eberhart wrote:
>
> Charles Heathco wrote:
>> Shortly after I bought my 6a, I went on a trip with another 6a with
>> almost ident paint job, with 3 blade and 160hp. I have 2 blade 150hp.
>> He told me he had to max it out to stay with me as I was lead. On
>> return he asked if I wanted to do form takeoff, and altho hadnt
>> before, I said yes.( him in lead) I stayed with him thru long ground
>> effect run and sharp pullup that we like to do (Rv builders on the
>> ground watching), an then broke off with an instictive vert pull and
>> hard rt turn when he pulled left in front of me. Other factors have a
>> bearing of course, but that is my take on the 3 vs 2 blade
>> comparison. I will add that he said his 6a performed better with the
>> Cato than with his previous 2 blade. Charlie Heathco
> Within about a month we will have a better comparison of 3 vs 2 blade
> propellers. My hangar mate and building buddy has an RV-7 with a
> Mattituck O-360 180 HP engine and Sensenich fixed pitch metal prop. I
> am putting a Catto 3 blade on my RV-7A O-360 180 HP that should be
> flying sometime in April. My Catto prop is scheduled to ship in
> another week. When it gets here we are going to put it on my hangar
> mates RV-7 and get comparison performance numbers for both props on
> the same plane. Should be interesting.
>
> Steve Eberhart
> RV-7A - O-360-A1A, Catto 3 blade, Slider and a whole bunch of Kandy
> Apple Red paint
>
>
--
Carlos Hernandez <carlosh@sec-engr.com>
Structural Engineers Company
2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3
Chandler, AZ 85224
Phone: 480.968.8600
Fax: 480.968.8608
www.sec-engr.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged.
This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or
organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or
an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and
its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is
prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please
immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email
from your system.
Message 10
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| Subject: | update on hangar lighting |
Yes, it would work.
And you'd save all that modification work ;-)
My trusses aren't open, so I didn't have that option.
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: update on hangar lighting
Brien,
Thanks for the info on the hangar lighting.
Would it work to mount the area light, using the vertical surface mounting
arm, on the side of the horizontal member of the wood truss in my hangar? It
appears that the globe of the light would still be below the bottom level of
the truss.
Dale Ensing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Meyette" <bmeyette@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:06 PM
Subject: RV-List: update on hangar lighting
>
> My electrician had suggested I'd get the most light for the cost by using
> an
> outside yard light for my hangar shop lighting. I tried one, and it
> worked
> great, so I documented the steps I used to do it and created a web page
> for
> it. See here:
>
> http://brian76.mystarband.net/HangarLights.htm
>
> If you want inexpensive lighting, this is your best bet, from all I've
> seen
>
> brian
>
> 9:14 AM
>
>
>
9:14 AM
10:16 AM
Message 11
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Builders and flyers,
Since there is the subject of prop's going on I'd like to know how many
out there have there's polished? You know the pretty chromed looking
ones. I do not know a great deal about prop's yet because I'm not even
close to making that final decision on models and such. So my questions
is what does it take to get a polished c/s prop? Other than having to be
metal, what do I need to be aware of? I'm looking to hang a 180 or 210
hp motor.
Carlos in AZ - 7A
--
Carlos Hernandez <carlosh@sec-engr.com>
Structural Engineers Company
2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3
Chandler, AZ 85224
Phone: 480.968.8600
Fax: 480.968.8608
www.sec-engr.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged.
This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or
organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or
an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and
its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is
prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please
immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email
from your system.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: update on hangar lighting |
You can also avoid all the internal wiring mods by either cannibalizing
the plug in photocell or buying a twist lock plug & hotwiring across the
switched pins. Then all you need to do is hook up black, white & ground.
One thing you might want to research is UV emission from 'yard lights'
if you plan to spend a lot of time under the lights.
You might also want to preserve your options with the diffuser.
Sometimes, removing the diffuser will get you a nice bright spot under
the light & the rest of the area will still be 'dark'.
Charlie
Brian Meyette wrote:
>
> Yes, it would work.
> And you'd save all that modification work ;-)
> My trusses aren't open, so I didn't have that option.
> brian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:33 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: update on hangar lighting
>
>
> Brien,
> Thanks for the info on the hangar lighting.
> Would it work to mount the area light, using the vertical surface mounting
> arm, on the side of the horizontal member of the wood truss in my hangar? It
>
> appears that the globe of the light would still be below the bottom level of
>
> the truss.
> Dale Ensing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Meyette" <bmeyette@gmail.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:06 PM
> Subject: RV-List: update on hangar lighting
>
>
>>
>> My electrician had suggested I'd get the most light for the cost by using
>> an
>> outside yard light for my hangar shop lighting. I tried one, and it
>> worked
>> great, so I documented the steps I used to do it and created a web page
>> for
>> it. See here:
>>
>> http://brian76.mystarband.net/HangarLights.htm
>>
>> If you want inexpensive lighting, this is your best bet, from all I've
>> seen
>>
>> brian
>>
>> 9:14 AM
Message 13
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| Subject: | update on hangar lighting |
You might also want to preserve your options with the diffuser.
Sometimes, removing the diffuser will get you a nice bright spot under
the light & the rest of the area will still be 'dark'.
Charlie
And it's good to realize that what only looks like a diffuser can also be an
explosion proof housing to contain the screaming hot quartz pieces that are
ejected when the bulb dynamites...
Thanks for taking time to documenting this for us.
DaveB
RV6
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Polished prop's |
I attended a forum at Oshkosh a few years ago which was put on by the
engineering manager at Hartzell. They recommend against polishing any
of their props. I recall they want to keep the corrosion protective
properties of their coating (anodizing?) as long as possible. I *do*
like the way those polished props look, though.
Mike Cencula
RV-7A Fuse
Carlos Hernandez wrote:
>
> Builders and flyers,
> Since there is the subject of prop's going on I'd like to know how
> many out there have there's polished? You know the pretty chromed
> looking ones. I do not know a great deal about prop's yet because I'm
> not even close to making that final decision on models and such. So my
> questions is what does it take to get a polished c/s prop? Other than
> having to be metal, what do I need to be aware of? I'm looking to hang
> a 180 or 210 hp motor.
>
> Carlos in AZ - 7A
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's |
I also had an Aymar Demuth 2-blade that I swaped out for a Catto 3-blade.
And I'll tell you - performance schmormance!
Look, it is an essentially undisputed fact that the fewer the blades, the
more efficient the transference of h.p. Some RC models use even use a ONE
bladed prop with a counter weight. That is, props that are optimum.
For me, now that I know the difference, give me the slightly less efficient
3 blade any day. The smoothness of the 3-blade makes all the difference in
the world. Who cares if you get there 5 minutes later if the entire 3 hour
trip was more pleasant?
I know, you really still want to know about the performance change.
Performance for me is difficult to judge because the props are so
different. I was under pitched with my 2-blade so the 3 blade has a lot
more pitch in addition to the extra blade, though it is shorter. The extra
pitch solidly increased my high altitude top speed, but take off roll and
climb are marginally diminished. The Catto seems to have a slimmer and
better blade, but the Aymar Demuth has a good reputation for efficiency.
The point is that the the other properties of the prop are going to usually
make more difference than the 3-blade vs 2-blade issue. But the smoothness
of the 3-blade makes a big difference.
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Jan 10, 2008 10:12 AM, Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net> wrote:
>
> When I changed my Aymar-Demuth 2 blade for a catto three blade
> (will need to provide prop specs on both) I saw a 3-3.5 knot improvement
> in 75% power, full speed with the Catto prop.
>
> Personally, a Hartzell blended airfoil 2 blade would be optimal.
>
> I know of a guy using a MT 2 blade constat speed prop and has had prop
> grease leaage issues on the original and a replacement prop.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | From the Ground Up |
In organizing the video library, I came across my 4 VHS video set of "From
the Ground UP", which, if you haven't seen it, was produced by the EAA in
conjunction with the Discovery Wings Channel. It is 13 episodes that
documented the construction of an RV-8 from kit to plane that really spiked
my interest in homebuilding. The videos are in "very good" condition. I
can't say "excellent", 'cuz they've been viewed! They sell for $80 on the
EAA website, but I'll ship 'em to the best offer I get over the weekend.
They're ready for a new home. Do Not Archive.
Bruce Breckenridge
40018 Wings
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's |
FWIW, Catto himself told me that for the O-320 RV's his 2 blade is about
the same as the 3 blade in terms of performance. For the O-360's he
prefers the 3-blade because it has better harmonics. I bought a
3-blade, as I have an IO-360 on my RV-6A. Not flying yet (give me a few
more months).
I talked to many people about props before I made this choice. The
stories about performance were pretty much all over the map. One thing
they all agreed on was that the 3-blade is very smooth. That's enough
for me right there. The prop is beautiful and Craig tells a pretty good
story (which I obviously bought in to), so I'm hoping for good cruise
performance. But, there's more art than science in the marriage of a
particular plane and a particular propeller. I hope I got a good
combination, but there's definitely an element of luck involved. We'll see.
--
Tom S.
RV-6A
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