---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/10/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:17 AM - Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Charles Heathco) 2. 07:46 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Ron Lee) 3. 08:17 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Ron Lee) 4. 08:17 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Richard Dudley) 5. 09:11 AM - Re: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? (Rob Prior) 6. 09:45 AM - Re: 2 or 3 blade props () 7. 09:49 AM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Steven Eberhart) 8. 10:16 AM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Ron Lee) 9. 10:21 AM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (Carlos Hernandez) 10. 11:24 AM - Re: update on hangar lighting (Brian Meyette) 11. 11:49 AM - Polished prop's (Carlos Hernandez) 12. 03:16 PM - Re: update on hangar lighting (Charlie England) 13. 03:41 PM - Re: update on hangar lighting (David Burton) 14. 07:24 PM - Re: Polished prop's (Michael D. Cencula) 15. 08:33 PM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (David Leonard) 16. 08:42 PM - From the Ground Up (bruce breckenridge) 17. 11:16 PM - Re: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's (tom sargent) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:27 AM PST US From: "Charles Heathco" Subject: RV-List: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's Shortly after I bought my 6a, I went on a trip with another 6a with almost ident paint job, with 3 blade and 160hp. I have 2 blade 150hp. He told me he had to max it out to stay with me as I was lead. On return he asked if I wanted to do form takeoff, and altho hadnt before, I said yes.( him in lead) I stayed with him thru long ground effect run and sharp pullup that we like to do (Rv builders on the ground watching), an then broke off with an instictive vert pull and hard rt turn when he pulled left in front of me. Other factors have a bearing of course, but that is my take on the 3 vs 2 blade comparison. I will add that he said his 6a performed better with the Cato than with his previous 2 blade. Charlie Heathco ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:57 AM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? I doubt that it uses current SARSAT satellites. As Rob mentions in a reply, the "I am OK/Check-in" position reporting function seems helpful. It would greatly reduce the area that needs to be searched in the event of a problem. If I did not already have a 406 MHz PLB I would probably get one of the Spot systems. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:17 AM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? The other point is that after 4-5 years it becomes more expensive than a 406 MHz PLB when you add in the $100/year cost. However, the "I am OK/Check-in" function is one that a PLB does not have and can easily justify the extra cost. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:17 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? There is another site that advertises this unit for $20 less. See: https://secure.baxinternet.com/~satdir/spot_sales_order.html RHDudley Ron Lee wrote: > > I doubt that it uses current SARSAT satellites. As Rob mentions in a > reply, > the "I am OK/Check-in" position reporting function seems helpful. It > would greatly reduce > the area that needs to be searched in the event of a problem. > > If I did not already have a 406 MHz PLB I would probably get one of > the Spot > systems. > > Ron Lee > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:56 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cheaper 406mhz plb alternative? On 8:16 2008-01-10 Richard Dudley wrote: > There is another site that advertises this unit for $20 less. See: > https://secure.baxinternet.com/~satdir/spot_sales_order.html They could give the units away for free and still make money on the system. It's the yearly fee that's paying their bills, not the capital received from selling units. I heard that COPA (Canadian Owners and Pilot's Association) is trying to arrange a discount for it's members. Maybe AOPA would do the same in the US? -Rob ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:02 AM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: 2 or 3 blade props The best value, performance, customer support by far is a BA (blended airfoil) from Vans. A three blade hartzell is going to be heavy. Short answer is buy a BA Harzell from Van and be done. The other choice is a MT prop. They are fine but will be significantly slower (6 mph at least, some report 9 mph or more). It will cost more to buy a MT, repair and overhaul. It will be way more expensive and time consuming, because you have to ship it to Germany for major repair. Also a small thing like a nick or erosion shield de-bonding, coming loose, means removal of the prop and shipping it, ie big BUCKS. A nick on a metal prop like a Hartzell might mean 5 minutes on the ramp with a super fine spoon file to blend the little nick out. If you want a WHITE prop get a Hartzell and paint it white and put pretty stripes on it if you want. I CANT OVER emphasize how much better Hartzell's service support will be. There are prop shops all over the US. You can even fly into Hartzell (Ohio) and they will repair your prop while you wait or overnight. You can call Hartzell and talk to an engineer or service expert in English, any work day of the week. MT? They speak German and the America centers tend to be staffed with sales people or technicians, not engineers. Van had the choice to overhaul a MT on one of his demo planes. The DOWN time was going to be long (a few weeks) and cost was going to be the better part of a new Hartzell. So they overhauled a Hartzell they had laying around the shop and had it back in a few days for less than $2k. This was in the RVator, so no hate mail, its Van saying this. MT is a good company, but it's a foreign company, a small boutique prop company. They are getting better, adding service centers, but chances are you will be far away from one. Composites and bonding is a wonderful thing but cost more and not easily ramp repaired. Last is performance. There is no debate. The fair and balanced unbiased tests have shown consistently the MT wood blade props are slower. That is to be expected. Wood blades are thicker and therefore lose efficiency at high speed. It's NOT a put down just aerodynamic facts and reality. Now the plus side is they are "smoother". Well I have flown metal blades and if balanced (with a balanced engine) and good engine mounts metal blades are plenty smooth. There is no doubt wood has its own natural dampening characteristics. Also a MT prop will be lighter. Here are some good links to Prop info. http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9791/prop200415me.jpg http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4741/prop200559zw.jpg http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Prop.htm http://www.lazy8.net/proptest.htm Enjoy, its a personal choice but a very expensive one. George *************** >From: "Rick Barnes" >Subject: 2 or 3 blade props >Let's get back to the building of RV10's. I've seen some 10's with 2 blade >and a few with 3 blade props. I've heard many differing ideas on which to >use. Why have some chosen going with a 2 and some with 3 blades? I know >3's are sexier and smoother running, but some of us are too old to care >about that. Rick --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:47 AM PST US From: Steven Eberhart Subject: Re: RV-List: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's Charles Heathco wrote: > Shortly after I bought my 6a, I went on a trip with another 6a with > almost ident paint job, with 3 blade and 160hp. I have 2 blade 150hp. > He told me he had to max it out to stay with me as I was lead. On > return he asked if I wanted to do form takeoff, and altho hadnt > before, I said yes.( him in lead) I stayed with him thru long ground > effect run and sharp pullup that we like to do (Rv builders on the > ground watching), an then broke off with an instictive vert pull and > hard rt turn when he pulled left in front of me. Other factors have a > bearing of course, but that is my take on the 3 vs 2 blade comparison. > I will add that he said his 6a performed better with the Cato than > with his previous 2 blade. Charlie Heathco Within about a month we will have a better comparison of 3 vs 2 blade propellers. My hangar mate and building buddy has an RV-7 with a Mattituck O-360 180 HP engine and Sensenich fixed pitch metal prop. I am putting a Catto 3 blade on my RV-7A O-360 180 HP that should be flying sometime in April. My Catto prop is scheduled to ship in another week. When it gets here we are going to put it on my hangar mates RV-7 and get comparison performance numbers for both props on the same plane. Should be interesting. Steve Eberhart RV-7A - O-360-A1A, Catto 3 blade, Slider and a whole bunch of Kandy Apple Red paint ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:17 AM PST US From: "Ron Lee" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's When I changed my Aymar-Demuth 2 blade for a catto three blade (will need to provide prop specs on both) I saw a 3-3.5 knot improvement in 75% power, full speed with the Catto prop. Personally, a Hartzell blended airfoil 2 blade would be optimal. I know of a guy using a MT 2 blade constat speed prop and has had prop grease leaage issues on the original and a replacement prop. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:56 AM PST US From: Carlos Hernandez Subject: Re: RV-List: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's This is especially interesting to me. You have essentially the same setup as I have planned for my 7A. I will be waiting for the follow up info on this. Carlos in AZ Do not archive Steven Eberhart wrote: > > Charles Heathco wrote: >> Shortly after I bought my 6a, I went on a trip with another 6a with >> almost ident paint job, with 3 blade and 160hp. I have 2 blade 150hp. >> He told me he had to max it out to stay with me as I was lead. On >> return he asked if I wanted to do form takeoff, and altho hadnt >> before, I said yes.( him in lead) I stayed with him thru long ground >> effect run and sharp pullup that we like to do (Rv builders on the >> ground watching), an then broke off with an instictive vert pull and >> hard rt turn when he pulled left in front of me. Other factors have a >> bearing of course, but that is my take on the 3 vs 2 blade >> comparison. I will add that he said his 6a performed better with the >> Cato than with his previous 2 blade. Charlie Heathco > Within about a month we will have a better comparison of 3 vs 2 blade > propellers. My hangar mate and building buddy has an RV-7 with a > Mattituck O-360 180 HP engine and Sensenich fixed pitch metal prop. I > am putting a Catto 3 blade on my RV-7A O-360 180 HP that should be > flying sometime in April. My Catto prop is scheduled to ship in > another week. When it gets here we are going to put it on my hangar > mates RV-7 and get comparison performance numbers for both props on > the same plane. Should be interesting. > > Steve Eberhart > RV-7A - O-360-A1A, Catto 3 blade, Slider and a whole bunch of Kandy > Apple Red paint > > -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers Company 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:22 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV-List: update on hangar lighting Yes, it would work. And you'd save all that modification work ;-) My trusses aren't open, so I didn't have that option. brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:33 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: update on hangar lighting Brien, Thanks for the info on the hangar lighting. Would it work to mount the area light, using the vertical surface mounting arm, on the side of the horizontal member of the wood truss in my hangar? It appears that the globe of the light would still be below the bottom level of the truss. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Meyette" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:06 PM Subject: RV-List: update on hangar lighting > > My electrician had suggested I'd get the most light for the cost by using > an > outside yard light for my hangar shop lighting. I tried one, and it > worked > great, so I documented the steps I used to do it and created a web page > for > it. See here: > > http://brian76.mystarband.net/HangarLights.htm > > If you want inexpensive lighting, this is your best bet, from all I've > seen > > brian > > 9:14 AM > > > 9:14 AM 10:16 AM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:01 AM PST US From: Carlos Hernandez Subject: RV-List: Polished prop's Builders and flyers, Since there is the subject of prop's going on I'd like to know how many out there have there's polished? You know the pretty chromed looking ones. I do not know a great deal about prop's yet because I'm not even close to making that final decision on models and such. So my questions is what does it take to get a polished c/s prop? Other than having to be metal, what do I need to be aware of? I'm looking to hang a 180 or 210 hp motor. Carlos in AZ - 7A -- Carlos Hernandez Structural Engineers Company 2963 W. Elliot Rd. - Suite 3 Chandler, AZ 85224 Phone: 480.968.8600 Fax: 480.968.8608 www.sec-engr.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this email may be confidential and/or privileged. This email is intended to be reviewed by only the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination or copyingof this email and its attachments, if any, or the information contained herein is prohibited. If you havereceived this email in error, please immediately notify the sender by return email and delete this email from your system. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:38 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: update on hangar lighting You can also avoid all the internal wiring mods by either cannibalizing the plug in photocell or buying a twist lock plug & hotwiring across the switched pins. Then all you need to do is hook up black, white & ground. One thing you might want to research is UV emission from 'yard lights' if you plan to spend a lot of time under the lights. You might also want to preserve your options with the diffuser. Sometimes, removing the diffuser will get you a nice bright spot under the light & the rest of the area will still be 'dark'. Charlie Brian Meyette wrote: > > Yes, it would work. > And you'd save all that modification work ;-) > My trusses aren't open, so I didn't have that option. > brian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:33 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: update on hangar lighting > > > Brien, > Thanks for the info on the hangar lighting. > Would it work to mount the area light, using the vertical surface mounting > arm, on the side of the horizontal member of the wood truss in my hangar? It > > appears that the globe of the light would still be below the bottom level of > > the truss. > Dale Ensing > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Meyette" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:06 PM > Subject: RV-List: update on hangar lighting > > >> >> My electrician had suggested I'd get the most light for the cost by using >> an >> outside yard light for my hangar shop lighting. I tried one, and it >> worked >> great, so I documented the steps I used to do it and created a web page >> for >> it. See here: >> >> http://brian76.mystarband.net/HangarLights.htm >> >> If you want inexpensive lighting, this is your best bet, from all I've >> seen >> >> brian >> >> 9:14 AM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:40 PM PST US From: "David Burton" Subject: RE: RV-List: update on hangar lighting You might also want to preserve your options with the diffuser. Sometimes, removing the diffuser will get you a nice bright spot under the light & the rest of the area will still be 'dark'. Charlie And it's good to realize that what only looks like a diffuser can also be an explosion proof housing to contain the screaming hot quartz pieces that are ejected when the bulb dynamites... Thanks for taking time to documenting this for us. DaveB RV6 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:35 PM PST US From: "Michael D. Cencula" Subject: Re: RV-List: Polished prop's I attended a forum at Oshkosh a few years ago which was put on by the engineering manager at Hartzell. They recommend against polishing any of their props. I recall they want to keep the corrosion protective properties of their coating (anodizing?) as long as possible. I *do* like the way those polished props look, though. Mike Cencula RV-7A Fuse Carlos Hernandez wrote: > > Builders and flyers, > Since there is the subject of prop's going on I'd like to know how > many out there have there's polished? You know the pretty chromed > looking ones. I do not know a great deal about prop's yet because I'm > not even close to making that final decision on models and such. So my > questions is what does it take to get a polished c/s prop? Other than > having to be metal, what do I need to be aware of? I'm looking to hang > a 180 or 210 hp motor. > > Carlos in AZ - 7A > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:10 PM PST US From: "David Leonard" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's I also had an Aymar Demuth 2-blade that I swaped out for a Catto 3-blade. And I'll tell you - performance schmormance! Look, it is an essentially undisputed fact that the fewer the blades, the more efficient the transference of h.p. Some RC models use even use a ONE bladed prop with a counter weight. That is, props that are optimum. For me, now that I know the difference, give me the slightly less efficient 3 blade any day. The smoothness of the 3-blade makes all the difference in the world. Who cares if you get there 5 minutes later if the entire 3 hour trip was more pleasant? I know, you really still want to know about the performance change. Performance for me is difficult to judge because the props are so different. I was under pitched with my 2-blade so the 3 blade has a lot more pitch in addition to the extra blade, though it is shorter. The extra pitch solidly increased my high altitude top speed, but take off roll and climb are marginally diminished. The Catto seems to have a slimmer and better blade, but the Aymar Demuth has a good reputation for efficiency. The point is that the the other properties of the prop are going to usually make more difference than the 3-blade vs 2-blade issue. But the smoothness of the 3-blade makes a big difference. -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Jan 10, 2008 10:12 AM, Ron Lee wrote: > > When I changed my Aymar-Demuth 2 blade for a catto three blade > (will need to provide prop specs on both) I saw a 3-3.5 knot improvement > in 75% power, full speed with the Catto prop. > > Personally, a Hartzell blended airfoil 2 blade would be optimal. > > I know of a guy using a MT 2 blade constat speed prop and has had prop > grease leaage issues on the original and a replacement prop. > > Ron Lee > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:12 PM PST US From: "bruce breckenridge" Subject: RV-List: From the Ground Up In organizing the video library, I came across my 4 VHS video set of "From the Ground UP", which, if you haven't seen it, was produced by the EAA in conjunction with the Discovery Wings Channel. It is 13 episodes that documented the construction of an RV-8 from kit to plane that really spiked my interest in homebuilding. The videos are in "very good" condition. I can't say "excellent", 'cuz they've been viewed! They sell for $80 on the EAA website, but I'll ship 'em to the best offer I get over the weekend. They're ready for a new home. Do Not Archive. Bruce Breckenridge 40018 Wings ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:41 PM PST US From: tom sargent Subject: Re: RV-List: Cato 3 blade vs sen 2 blade RV6a's FWIW, Catto himself told me that for the O-320 RV's his 2 blade is about the same as the 3 blade in terms of performance. For the O-360's he prefers the 3-blade because it has better harmonics. I bought a 3-blade, as I have an IO-360 on my RV-6A. Not flying yet (give me a few more months). I talked to many people about props before I made this choice. The stories about performance were pretty much all over the map. One thing they all agreed on was that the 3-blade is very smooth. That's enough for me right there. The prop is beautiful and Craig tells a pretty good story (which I obviously bought in to), so I'm hoping for good cruise performance. But, there's more art than science in the marriage of a particular plane and a particular propeller. I hope I got a good combination, but there's definitely an element of luck involved. We'll see. -- Tom S. RV-6A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.